Sunday, November 1, 2009

Tier Four Law Schools Under the Microscope

I will highlight the fraudulent employment and salary stats of some of the school booths that I visited on October 20th. Today, we will look at the four Tier 4 schools (according to the 2009 law school rankings put out by USN&WR) that I looked at during the law school fair. We will examine tuition and employment/salary info for these schools.

Starting in reverse alphabetical order: Whittier Law School of Costa Mesa– tuition at this school is $37,060 for full-time students.

Whittier features “Employment on Campus.”

The materials and the sales rep state that the employment rate within nine months is 91.0% for the class of 2008 (with a response rate of 96.68%). But, for some reason, the school’s website does not list employment and starting salary figures. Why would the school’s site not tout this impressive employment rate?!?!

Next, we will look at Touro College Jacob D. Fuchsberg Law Center, in Central Islip, NY. For the 2009-2010 school year, a FT law student will pay $39,000 in annual tuition from this toilet school. What a tremendous investment, huh?!?

As far as employment goes, this is the best info you will get from this TTTT – there is nothing specific, i.e. Class of 2007 employment statistics. Cool, you pay $39K a year for a JD from this dump, and this is the best employment info they can provide:

Roger Williams University School of Law, located in Bristol, RI, is up. The school lists tuition by credit hour – this is a nice way of trying to conceal the total cost from prospective students. However, based on the cost of $1165 per credit, we can figure that a FT student will pay $34,950 in tuition (i.e. 30 credit hours * $1165).

Here is a PDF, listing the employment breakdown for this school’s Class of 2008:

The school also features a page titled Impact of Credit History – I guess the school realizes many of its students will need to take out private loans to meet tuition.

Lastly, we will examine Pace Law School, of White Plains, NY. Tuition is currently $31,860 for a full-time JD candidate.

Look at this pathetic offering from the school – a video on Job Searching in the Current Economy:

Plus, Pace University “Employment Search Policy”:

There are also pages with regard to on-campus and student employment. In the final analysis, these schools are diploma mills. They are simply trying to squeeze as much money out of their students as they possibly can. These four schools KNOW that there is a gross over-supply of lawyers in this country. They are also AWARE that there is NOT a big demand among law firms, government or private industry to hire TTTT grads from Pace, Roger Williams, Touro, or Whittier.

The University of Colorado-Boulder (a tier 1 school) has admitted that only 35% of its recent graduating law class was employed at the time of graduation. Now imagine what this figure is for recent grads from these four toilet schools.


  1. I had posted this as a response to you on Tom's blog, but just in case you missed it:

    Colorado's stats were REVERSED. The 35% was the UNemployment rate. At least, that's what the school said in it's clarification. 35% still a high number though.

    For whatever reason, I can't seem to cut/paste here, so I'd direct you to Tom's blog where I pasted the clarification link.

    Good luck in your crusade against tier 4s and tier 3s. Happy hunting.

  2. Are you just a bitter student that didn't get the job you wanted? I go to one of these toilet schools and am currently a 3L. Through the past two summers I have made decent money and have friends that racked upwards of $16,000 for 8 weeks employment. I don't think that's too shabby. Furthermore, look the RNC Executive Director...from the "toilet school." You are doing a shitty thing because you are bitter. I would question what rank you were and how that correlated with your post education job search. You are probably one of those individuals that feels entitled and was pissed off when you weren't handed a $100,000 plus job immediately upon receiving your JD. While it is sometimes scary the fact of the matter is that obtaining your JD wouldn't be near as attractive if there weren't plenty of success stories. And many of these things you say can easily be applied to doctors as well. MY brother and sister are both surgeons...I know. The degree doesn't earn you the money, you still have to do the work. And if you are in a somewhat shitty school you are going to have to work that much harder. The average salary of an RWU law grad is $55k. That's as much as my mother makes after 30 years of teaching...NOT TOO SHABBY. It's better than the job that I had prior to this pulling in $44k and I most likely will exceed the average. You are doing a dis-service because you are a bitter moron that feels entitled to make millions upon graduation. Have fun fighting capitalism in America.

  3. of course, dumbass's mom above me didn't need to take out over 100k to get her 40k job. any asshole can point to his handful of friends that worked at firms one summer and made bank; the top 10% tend to do pretty well (though probably 5% at these schools); you figure there are at least 20-30 people in a class of 200 - 300 that make it out pretty unscathed. We aint pissed because we's aint rich, we's pissed because we's getting pissed on, you insufferable faggot

  4. Wow... Anonymous #2. You have zero credibility. You're still in law school. You have no idea what it's like in the real world. It's like a mere child telling adults what life is all about. Talk to me in 10 years and let me know how satisfied you are with your decision.
    Absent a recession, you have two choices as a lawyer.
    1. Lifestyle, Interesting Work, and Law Pay--Which might be what Nando is doing. It's just difficult to justify the tuition paid for that sort of career. But I argue that he is probably a happier attorney than most.
    2. No life, shitty lifestyle, high pay, bland and boring work--I did this route. Guess what... I was one of the "fortunate ones" and now I'm laid off.
    And now with the recession:
    3. No job, lots of debt, no future.

    So, bugger off. You speak from ignorance.

  5. low pay... sorry.

    BTW, Nando and I and everyone of us that seems bitter is really pro-Capitalism. The problem is that there is lack of information and we're trying to fill that void. If schools lie about their statistics, how can students make informed decisions and NOT go to shitty law schools... and allow those to close as Capitalism would dictate.
    If a car that is a lemon was sold on the market.. the word would get out quickly and the car would last 2 years tops. TTTs and TTTTs have lasted for decades. We're simply asking for real accountability and supply and demand to work its magic.

  6. To Anonymous #2:

    I am not a student, you dense troll. You simply do not know what you are talking about. For instance, you take schools like Roger Williams at their word – this is naïve, ESPECIALLY for a third-year law student. (This is naïve for a pre-law student, even.) And you are apparently proud that the ALLEGED average starting salary for grads of your toilet law school is $44K. WOW! People must be beating down the doors to get into that school so that they can go six figures in debt and MAYBE earn $44,000 upon graduation and successfully finding a job.

    You realize that no one audits these figures, correct? Also, those who make good money are MUCH more likely to fill out the survey than those who make peanuts (or are unemployed). Furthermore, THERE IS NO INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION PERFORMED ON THESE SELF-REPORTING STATS. FYI, median salary is a better indicator than average, as the average is easier to skew with a few high salaries.

    I never expected – or felt entitled - to make six figures out of law school, kid. Perhaps, you should aim that baseless allegation at students at HYS. I have relative little student loan debt, and I have a job. I expose the law school fraud, because it adversely affects thousands of people. I am not the institution or law professor getting rich off of young, ignorant, naive law students. Yes, what a disservice!

    Did your mother go $130K in debt to find her job? Also, if she teaches in the public schools, she probably has better benefits than most recent law grads. For future reference, don’t call someone who is demonstrably more intelligent than you a moron. Try not to be so emotional and defensive either - why are you so emotionally invested in your toilet law school?. Read the entire blog before talking out of your ass. If you had done so, you would see where I have stated that I make more money than many of my classmates who had better grades. Hell, many of those guys are still unemployed or taking court-appointed work.

    Here is another logical fallacy you employ: you use one person who apparently has a high-ranking position in the political arena (however, major political party executive directors are merely corporate shills and do the bidding of their corporate masters) to try to prove that these schools are a good investment. This is idiocy! Vice President Joseph Biden graduated from Syracuse Law School (tier 3), and the current U.S. Secretary of Agriculture, Tom Vilsack, is a graduate of Albany Law School (tier 3). USING YOUR LOGIC, THAT MUST MEAN THAT THESE TWO SCHOOLS ARE PHENOMENAL!!

    In sum, your “logic” IS shabby! I simply don’t like casino capitalism, which is what we have in this country. But you probably believe that we operate under a “free market.”

  7. 3L nitwit was claiming that RW's average salary was 55k. His mom made 44k. Just FYI.

    Keep up the fight, the TTTs, TTTTs, and worse need to die.

  8. To the poster above. You are correct - the law student claimed the average starting salary for RWU grads is $55K. I was referring to the median salary listed on RWU's employment charts for its Class of 2008:

    Under Median Salary for All Reporting, the figure listed is $45,500. I should have been more clear on this point. Thank you for pointing this out.

    To the first person who commented on this entry: I see that Colorado now states that its figures were reversed. This is still a high unemployment rate, and by graduation many of those people are surely not working in the field of law.

    I am still skeptical of the reversal though - do schools report negatives, i.e. "Only 35 percent unemployment at date of graduation"? It seems more reasonable that schools report positive outcomes, i.e. "We are happy to report that 55% of our graduating law class was employed at time of graduation." Thank you for bringing that article to my attention.

  9. This is the most bitter, toxic bunch of people I've ever run across.

    Kind of sad actually.

    No wonder people hate lawyers

  10. What about the "law professors" and administrators of these diploma mills - who KNOW that most of their graduates will be in worse financial shape than when they entered their institution? Where is your contempt for these wretches?!

    These present-day pharisees encourage their debt-soaked students to pursue "justice" and "represent those without a voice." They give voice to these things, but yet they make $180K per year for working 4-6 hours per week.

    No wonder people hate "law professors" - the most overpaid, under-worked group of people in this country.

  11. I'm going to a 4th tier law school. It probably won't result in a job but at least I will have a life! Its better than sitting around my parents house sending out hundreds of resumes and applications and hearing nothing back.
    I know your going to tell me to join the army or something but let me stop you right there...they won't take me, I've tried. I'm a tiny little girl who is legally blind with a bad case of athsma. If I can't find work after law school then I will file for bankruptcy and move back in with my parents.
    The truth is I really want to go to law school, badly. I think law is fascinating and I would do anything to be a lawyer. I have a substantial scholarship. What is the worst that can happen? I don't care about owning a home, I don't want a baby, I just want to be a lawyer. I realize how stupid I sound but its true. I don't expect anything to come of it but if I don't give it a chance now I know that I never will. A slight chance is better than none at all. I just want to live a meaningful life.
    I do appreciate what you are trying to do. I think it is important to point out the pitfalls. Law schools tend to paint a rosy picture. I wish my parents had been preparing me since childhood for how difficult being an adult is. I wish someone had told me not to major in philosophy in college (insert snort of amusement at my expense). I think it is ironic that finally someone is warning me NOT to do something and it turns out that I don't care. Maybe thats why no one ever says anything...

  12. Have you passed a state bar exam? This blog appears to be the emotional release for a whiner who is mad at the world because he/she can't pass the bar exam. Stop complaining. This pity-party is pathetic.

  13. To the cretin above, who posted at 2:06 - I realize that spending thousands of dollars to sit for the bar exam would be a waste of time, energy and money. Passing the exam will not lead to a job in the field.

    Right now, I am the sole income-earner in my household. Do you think I am going to let some anonymous loser/apologist cockroach goad me into pissing away $2500-$3500 - and countless hours of study and lost sleep - that could be better spent on necessities, i.e. bills, food, heat, electricity, etc.? Go hiss somewhere else, cockroach.

  14. I went to one of those toilet schools while working full time and passed the state bar. Now I have relocated because of my son's education and find myself in a city where I dont know a soul trying to break into the "in-crowd" and study for this state's bar. The change here is that now I am the sole wage earner and cannot pull enough money together to pay for another bar prep course. With all of this debt on top of all else I feel backed into a corner. I dont believe the JDs' above are bitter. I believe everyone went to school believing there would be viable options upon graduation. Little did we know that those options are relegated to a select few. It took over a 100K in debt to learn this lesson. So sad.

  15. Here may be something that isn't being taken into consideration. If you are lucky, upon graduation you get a Judicial Clerkship. These pay crap, no wonder the average starting salary for a graduate is so low. I'd take a low average starting salary and a clerkship any day of the week. Once you are out in the field, having that clerkship is going to mean a lot more than what school I went to. Here is what your employers after the first 3 years care about. Did you pass the bar, how many tries did it take, have you been in a courtroom and did you clerk. I attended one of these schools, am I saying value for dollar is great, its better than some others I'll tell you that. But here's the dirty little secret, the price for any legal education (and medical for that matter) is outrageous whether you attend Harvard Law, New York School of Law, Rutgers or Pace. Value for value, none of these schools are worth their cost in this day and age and in the current state of the economy. Here is what schools and I mean ALL law schools need to be telling potential students. We have to many god damn lawyers already. Maybe I'm the lucky one, I got my clerkship in the division I wanted. After that I started making a good salary, well above the declared average for any of these schools. I'm not sitting around doing another attorney's crap work and watching him take the credit in the courtroom I'm the one in that courtroom. And whoever insulted attorney's who take court appointed assignments above isn't good enough to kiss the bottom of those other attorney's shoes. Those people need an attorney, I have no qualms over my public defender assignments I went in search of them.

  16. I have read many of your "ratings," and have come to the conclusion that you are either: someone who flunked out of law school, or someone who could not get into law school. You are a bitter failure, who obviously has way too much time on his hands. To make yourself feel better, you shit on every law school you possibly can, even though you probably know little to nothing about law school, considering the fact that you probably never attended one. The fact is, you are not smart or hard working enough to get into law school, and you probably work at Wall Mart. Get a life loser.

  17. To the cockroach who posted at February 18, 2011, 12:06 pm,

    You posted the same, exact message on at least three TTR entries. Would you care to add some actual evidence to back up your assumptions? Or will that tax your little brain too much?!?!

    I have never worked in retail, dumbass. By the way, ignorant fool: you misspelled Wal-Mart. You shop there, using WIC and Food Stamps, several times per month. How the hell did you manage to misspell the name of the store?

    Oh well. Here is how you will feel better about your miserable existence, bitch. Go buy your mom a nice $5 blouse from Wal-Mart.

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