Thursday, January 7, 2010

Western State Finally Gets Accredited – Yay!

preLaw magazine is proud to report, in its Winter 2010 edition, that Western State finally got accredited. We can all sleep sound at night, knowing that this TTTTTremendous institution has gained full ABA accreditation.

When the announcement finally came this past August that Western State University had received full ABA accreditation, it was cause for celebration and joy at the 43-year-old school in Fullerton, Calif.

And it ONLY took 43 years! What a miracle!

“Not only have we demonstrated our compliance with the high academic standards that have been set before us, but we also feel more confident than ever that our graduates will be well-prepared to serve the legal community with excellence and a deserving sense of pride,” [Dean William] Adams said.

Yes, people will now fall over themselves to hire Western State grads!

The school’s 6 top reasons to attend their toilet:

Job “Resources”:

They list Simplicity, PsLawNet, and Equal Justice Works as resources. You are better off shelling out $0.75 to buy a local newspaper as a means of finding legal employment, than you are by relying on these “resources.” Look at the long list of links at the bottom of the page. It’s the old “fling enough feces against the wall, and something will stick” strategy.

I also do not see where Employment figures or Salary statistics are listed, on the school’s site. Maybe Western State JDs make so much money, that the school is embarrassed to list those amounts on their web page. (Yeah, and maybe Salma Hayek is waiting to seduce me in the back seat of my car, too.)


$32,600 for the 2009-10 academic year! For the mathematically-impaired admissions committee members, $16,300 per academic semester * two semesters = $32,600. Not listed is the cost of living. For that useful information, we access another resource:

The area scores a 128 on the Cost of Living Index. That means that the area is roughly 28 percent more expensive than the national average. (Not all of us law grads are math deficient.)

The median household income is also listed at $58,769, which is about 16 percent higher than the U.S. median household income listed for 2007. To be fair, I do not know how often the Yahoo Real Estate page is updated. But this at least gives us a rough idea of the cost of living in Fullerton, or the surrounding area.

It seems plausible that a student at the Western State College of Law could easily end up $150K in debt – just from law school. And for what?!? For weak-ass job prospects in the legendary, over-saturated California legal market? You might as well set fire to that $150,000. Congratulations on attaining full accreditation, WesTTTTTern STTTTTaTTTTTe!


  1. Great post Nando. 43 years to get accreditation?? Western State students would be better off spending that $32,600 on lotto tickets, at least then they'd have a chance to get something for their money.

  2. I like how the article notes that Western State was the first real, for-profit law school. LOL. I mean, aren’t they all for profit? Why else would they charge $40K per year in tuition?

  3. BUSH GOP PATRIOT!!!!!!!!January 7, 2010 at 10:29 AM

    I feel bad for you. The liberal blame game is a trap that you may never escape from. Your reality construct helps you deal with your own insufficiency and failure. However, the TRUE SELF MADE MAN can see the WORLD of OPPORTUNITY that exists in the free market. I am a highly successful business executive and self-made industrialist. I know countless SUCCESSFUL attorneys who enjoy their job and make well into six figures.

    I hope someday you can join us in the FREE MARKET OF SUCCESS AND PROSPERITY!!!

  4. The Calif Bar has always been a pain in the ABA's a*s for years. You see, Calif is one of the few states that accredits its own law schools. The Calif Bar allows internet study of Law (expl. Taft Univ), LAw Office study of LAw, Correspondence Study of LAw (expl. UNL), and non-ABA accredited schools( JFK, Calif NOrthern etc etc...).

    You may think that this restricts the LAw Grads only to Calif. No! IT is true that Calif grads must pass the Baby Bar and Calif Bar Exam (a rough exam). But, the Calif Law Grads after they get their license can sit for the exams in all but four states (fly overs Iowa, Idaho; I forget the other two, sorry). Whether or not WEstern gets its crappy ABA accreditation is immaterial. AS JFK in San Francisco stated, "it no longer aspires to ABA accreditation." People will apply to Calif schools as long as they can sit for the Calif Bar exam. They will leave the rough Calif legal job market and goto the remaining states.

    1. This is the most interesting thing I've read online about the Bar and I had no idea that sitting for the Calif bar allows for this. Do you have a source I could reference? I'd love to know more!!

  5. Most private schools charge about $30K in yearly tuition, not $40K. Although, I do agree that ALL law schools are primarily profit-driven (including the state schools). This is why they continue to pump out far more JDs than there are available positions. U.S. law schools are all out to make a dollar, and they do not give a damn that many of their students will never practice law!

    According to the Orange County Register, We$tern $tate is owned by Pittsburgh-based Education Management Corporation. Here is the link:

    I had to laugh when the articles closes with this: "The Whittier Law School and the Chapman University School of Law are the only other ABA-accredited law schools in Orange County."

    Yes, and they are all sub-par law schools. Does the paper think Orange County needs another TTTT?

  6. I have a soft spot in my heart for We$TTTTern $TTTTaTTTTe. It was where I sat for my LSAT. Since the beginning of the end of my life happened there, I think when they bury me, I want to be buried right there on the grounds of Western State, with a tombstone that reads: "Here lies a lawyer who graduated from a school four tiers above this one, and still never made a dime from it. Good luck, suckers."

  7. At what point to you guys/gals say that enough info is out there for the aspiring law student that their six figure debt is on them?

    I mean, after a certain point, even some of you eternal pessimists have to admit that the burden lies with the student who refuses to open his/her eyes, right?

    Of course, we would never apply that to you, but I'm just saying, what about next year's class? What about in five years? Ten?


  8. To the lemming above,

    We are not talking about unicorns, werewolves, dragons, wizards, or elves. If you want to read about those things listed above, then go check out a fantasy novel from your local library. If you want to view eternal optimist drivel, go check out a book or DVD by Joel Osteen. On this site, we talk about third tier reality. We are talking about real people’s lives, i.e. hard-working, motivated, and – for the most part – intelligent young people pissing away their financial livelihood on an expensive legal education.

    I made the decision to go to law school, with the best information I had available. I took a calculated risk, and it did not pay off. This is also the case for legions of law students.

    What were my options back then? Call up the respective law school admissions committee members and deans and ask them to provide me with a redacted version of the employment and starting salary figures, for their last three graduating classes? It seems that alumni, current law students, AND lawyers can’t get access to this info from the law schools. But the burden is still solely on the student, right?

    These blogs shed light on the law school racket, by providing better information to potential law students. People need balanced info before making this important decision. YOU seem to want students to have access only to industry propaganda. Not a big fan of the marketplace of ideas, huh?

    If YOU buy a meal and you get food poisoning, is that your fault for not watching the cook prepare your food? (Ask the restaurant manager if you can go in the kitchen to make sure your food is prepared and cooked thoroughly. See what his response will be.) Remember, if you go out to eat, it is foreseeable that you could be exposed to unsanitary food.

    If YOU get in a car wreck caused by someone else, should you not file an accident report and an insurance claim? After all, if you drive a car you take a risk that you could be involved in an auto accident. You mean to tell me that you wouldn’t be able to avoid such a crash?

    Is that your moral position, Lemming?

  9. hardworking and motivated...that you are not Nando. You never were, and you never will be. Thats why you are where you are today [read: nowhere]. The hardest you've ever worked was on this blog and you can take the money you made from complaining on the internet all the way to the bank. Oh wait...

    A Happy Recent Drake Grad with a legal job!!!

  10. Looks like the adcom wanted to get in one last lick before the weekend. What do u guys know about hard work sitting in your little officem, and reading news articles all day long?

  11. If you are so happy, then why do you need to stoop to personal attacks? Are you not smart enough to make a cogent argument that third tier law schools are a good "investment" for most students?

    I worked full-time (at a decent job) and went to school full-time, and earned a 3.82 GPA in undergrad - all while being married. So know that, before you continue to talk out of your ass. (Although, I am happy to let you persist in your blatant ignorance.) Now, if YOU want, you can use your Drake email account and send me a message so we can discuss our positions further. I seriously doubt you will, though.

  12. Nando,

    Check this out:

  13. Look at their Top 6 Reasons to Attend under #2: "The faculty to student ratio is under 20 to 1; professors have open door policy and are highly accessible, encourage students to visit their office or email."

    Their sentence structure is pretty telling.

  14. Western state jammed on the Feb 2010 CA Bar Exam, beating: U Laverne, UC Davis, U of San Francisco, Chapman, Whittier, Southwestern and USC. To all you haters, WAZZU is on its way up. GO WSU!!

  15. And how many of those JDs who passed the bar exam will NEVER practice law? The fact remains that We$TTTTern $TTTTTaTTTTTe Univer$iTTTTTy Commode of Law is a waste of time, energy and large sums of borrowed money.

    Look, for the 2009-2010 school year, full-time students at this dump were charged $32,600 in tuition alone. Remember, bar passage DOES NOT EQUAL legal employment. And that is the whole point of passing the bar exam, is it not? You are not really a lawyer until a CLIENT pays you for your legal services.

    According to the employment report by NALP, the Class of 2009 had 44,000 graduates - for a total of 28,901 jobs requiring bar passage. And California's legal market is terribly over-saturated.

    So, would you like to explain exactly how WSU is on its way up?! Unless, of course, you are referring to the ridiculously-high tuition. Hell, it took the sewer 43 years to gain full ABA accreditation. Yes, what a giant feat, right?! Remember, the ABA tends to approve any building with bookshelves, running water, printers, and a fax machine as an American law school.

  16. Nando said...
    If you are so happy, then why do you need to stoop to personal attacks?

    -perhaps "when in rome"? That's all you do afterall. (as if you could do anything else)

    Nando said...
    And how many of those JDs who passed the bar exam will NEVER practice law?

    -Believe it or not MOST people are not as pathetic as you and DO practice law. (and yes that even includes non-aba grads, so how sad does that make it to be you?)

  17. To the moron above,

    How many of those people are in toiletlaw, struggling to pay their bills? News flash: someone with $130K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt is not better off with a lawyer job - making $37K annually - than someone making the same amount and less debt. Do you understand that, or do I need to draw you a diagram with Crayola on posterboard?!?!

    By the way, ABA is spelled with capitals. I suppose this realization might tax the brain of a We$TTTTTern $TTTTTaTTTTTe student or graduate. Learn how to use proper spacing, punctuation and sentence structure, idiot.

    If you notice, I enjoy a debate on the facts. We will disagree on things. However, once someone has PROVEN to be an ignorant troll and a waste of space, my patience wears thin. When these cretins persist in making baseless assertions and ad hominem attacks, I will pummel them - and beat them down with the facts, logic, and industry statements.

    You are welcome for the ass-kicking.

  18. I think the best book a law student will ever read is a book on changing your identity and hiding for the rest of your life because the collection agencies will never stop hounding them for their $200K non-dischargeable debt they never will be able to pay after graduation.


    After reading these posts, glad I did NOT attend law school. Thought law school was the ANSWER, since many family members were attorneys. In '83 was accepted @ Western Law School (no LSAT requirement) & changed my mind about attending when I came out there. Came back to my hometown of Chicago, became an accounting-- auditor for the State, retired early @ 55.

    You never know where the road will lead!

  20. I went to WSU back in 1978 then went on to pass the bar.I never got a job from this education and feel it was all one big racket.

  21. Most of you sound either like ne'er do wells, or arrogant self important snobs. WSU could have been ABA accredited many years ago but fought the ABA rule that no proprietary school would be allowed -- following the notion that only non-profit institutions were "acceptable" and permitted to have the ABA good housekeeping seal of approval. WSU was accredited by the State Bar of California in 1972 and has a legion of superior grads serving in the Bar, on the Bench, in legislatures, business, academia and politics. After decades of proving and reproving itself, in addition to legal action against the ABA, WSU "finally" won and the ABA recognized its un-defendable position. I'm happy for them. I'm a WSU grad of 1972 -- had an significant legal career in the Orange County District Attorney's office, attended two elite universities in the Boston area receiving an MA and PhD and now teach at another elite university in the Boston area. As with many postings on the internet and social media, most of what I read is ugly, mean spirited, lacking in facts and simply disgusting. Grow up -- if you're so smart, and get your facts right before going off half cocked -- even if you have that much intellectual capacity.


  22. To the Boomer cockroach above,

    The legal job market has changed significantly since you graduated from law school FORTY YEARS AGO, moron! This blog is backed by the facts, bitch.

    Check out this ass-kicking article from the New York Times, which was published on January 8, 2011. The piece was written by David Segal, and it was entitled "Is Law School a Losing Game?" It appeared on the front page of the Sunday edition of the NYT Business section, old pig. Check out this quote, you piece of trash:

    “Avoid this overpriced sewer pit as if your life depended on it,” writes the anonymous author of the blog Third Tier Reality — a reference to the second-to-bottom tier of the U.S. News rankings — in a typically scatological review. “Unless, of course, you think that you will be better off with $110k-$190k in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt for a degree that qualifies you to wait tables at the Battery Park Bar and Lounge.”

    By the way, old fart: I talked to the reporter after this hit the internet. He told me that the New York Times almost never cites to anonymous sources. Hell, they even provided a hyperlink to this site. How do you like that, mental midget?!?!

    Have a bad day, selfish Boomer swine. Slip in the shower, and break your hip.

  23. This school is a shit heap.

  24. I am a student at Western, and couldn't be happier. The faculty and support staff are amazing, helpful, caring, and trustworthy. I am a civil rights activist, and soon I will have letters following my name that will enable me to put more punch into what I LOVE to do! I have a passion for the truth, and for people with insufficient opportunities to improve the lifestyle they were born into.

    Education is only valuable to the extent that those with the abilities and the opportunities to acquire one USE their "knowledge" to improve the lives of others. I am very content, and love my life. But my happiness is due to the focus of my life, which is to help my sisters and brothers by giving them a hand up. There is room at the top for all of us, and once we realize this? Well, the "heaven" so many "believe" in will be realized by more people than me and the few I have met along the way.

    Do you know that I've never had a bad waitperson at a restaurant? Why is that? Because I treat them like they are the most important people I have ever had the pleasure to get to know. Do you know why I treat them that way? Because they ARE. We all are. The food they serve will provide fuel for my body, but the relationship between us will leave an impression on both of us; the question is, what kind of impression will you make on them? Because there is a direct correlation between that and the impression they make on you.

    Realize your worth. Once you do, doors will open, and you will be a light to others. No money can buy a lifestyle that will fulfill you. Physical beauty will not sustain you. The only thing that will fill you up with joy is the love that you experience every day . . . the feeling of being accepted by others, the knowledge that you are safe, and that you will always be.

    If whatever you are doing in your life is not making you happy, then either do something different or sit back and quit expecting anything more than a life lived in a rut.

    Many of us are privileged enough to have the capacity for free choice. I have found that my choices began as thoughts. Thoughts. So I input thoughtfulness, and find that there is little room or time left for negativity. There is simply too much to do, and so many who need my help. They need yours, too. I need yours.

    Isn't there a song from this generation, something about being "the change you want to see?"

    Here's to a summer of new memories! And I can't wait until school starts! I took my last final this week, and am going to enjoy this time off. But I get to take classes from Koppel, Sheppard, Malagrino, Jones, and Mohr next year! I am so excited. I have never had a professor who was less than excellent at Western State! It was a tough choice to make, deciding which law school to attend. But from among the many to which I applied--all of whom accepted me and granted scholarships--I am reminded every day of how glad I am I chose THIS school. I have never had a second thought that it was one of the best decisions I have ever made!


    1. Bravo for you. I'm a Western State grad who graduated with only a $6,000 loan due to scholarships. I believe, and have told my children, your education provides you with tools and it is what you do with those tools that provides you with happiness and success. Your attitude toward life will take you far. I have many, many colleagues who are successful Western State graduates. I told my children before they headed to college you can take ten graduates of Harvard and 10 from Cal State Fullerton and it's likely the same percentage will be happy and content with their life. Success and happiness has more to do with attitude and effort. I am not putting down an Ivy League education as it offers all kinds of wonderful opportunities for those who can afford to go there or get into those schools, but I want my children to be happy and content and that is in their reach no matter where they seek out their education. And, yes, dear Nando, it makes sense to investigate the facts in any decision you make -- but that doesn't mean the decision should be made off of a fear-mongering blog. Not sure how I landed here. Oh, yeah. I was looking for Western State's address. Time to get back to work.

  25. Nando, check out the idiot Paulina Brady who had to take the bar exam 14 times to pass it! I mention her because she is a graduate of this toilet when it was a non-ABA approved school. Basically, to summarize she quit a good paying job as a teacher at a Marine animal place in Orange County which afforded her a wonderful life in a 3 bedroom home to attend this toilet and rack up $80,000 in debt which because of deferment it morphed into $100,000 in debt. All this misery so she can teach classes on how to pass the California Bar because she is such an authority LOL! So she did not get to teach business law like she thought LOL. She got screwed amd of course she compares herself to Abraham Lincoln as always lol.

  26. As many probably know, Western State is part of Argosy University. I had never heard of Argosy until recently, but it sounded suspicious. Sure enough it is, based upon the number of ripoff and complaint related references. As if Western State didn't have enough of its online reputation problems, now it has all of Argosy's negative publicity. But that is all well and good, I am smart enough not to go anyway. I would rather be someone without any student loan. Besides who wants to pay over $100,000 to not get anything?

  27. It appears that no good reason exists to go to law school anyway to spend over $100,000 for the chance at getting a $50,000/year job. That type of job can be obtained with a regular college degree without all this extra debt. If you are going into private practice or going to work for a friend or relative who is an attorney that is one thing, but trying to find a job as a lawyer after graduating from Western State appears impossible. Although clients may not care where you went to school, a law firm will. Reputation is important in this business, and Western State's is absolutely horrific.

  28. I went to WSU 1994-1998, passed the CA bar exam and then moved to PA. Now I cannot leave PA, because of custodial obligations and cannot practise law here. However, I still have huge student loans stemming from WSU.

  29. thirty years ago I shamefully admit I spent 3 semesters and money I did not have at this "law school". Incredibly this school accepted me though I was a high school drop-out whose only education past my GED was technical training in the health care field. I scored low on the LSAT, had no clue about american history, jurisprudence or even an intro logic class. A ninth grade education and a job that placed me in working class hero status were the only requirements this school expected from me. What I did learn from Western State Law School was I could care less about jurisprudence and I should go to a real college. I crossed the street to CSU Fullerton and after four years I received my BA, two years later I got my master's degree and somehow, I don't know how I did it, I earned over $90,000 a year in a profession far removed from the are of law. An ignorant person in mid-twenties, I was duped by this place that should duped pathetic fools like myself for decades

  30. Based upon these and other postings, it appears that Western State is a half assed institution at best, and is not worth the time of day, much less over $100,000 in tuition and fees. Perhaps in its heyday before the internet, Western State could pull the wool over the eyes of prospective students, but now there really is no excuse. There is ample information as to the dubious value of its law degree. WESTERN STATE/ARGOSY IS A SCAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  31. Going to law school in general is just plain stupid because law schools have been ripping students off for decades. If you are considering going to law school simply ask yourself this: why would i want to be death trapped by over $100,000 in student loans when i just avoid all this by just not going? Also, the practice of law is bs anyway, because hiring a lawyer is paying someone who could very possibly lose it all for you anyway! The lawyer doesn't care (especially public defenders) due to a process called "fence posting" All the lawyer attempts to do is move the results away from the worst maximum possible exposure, and then charge you an arm an a leg for little or no effort. Don't ever look up to a lawyer, most are just student debtors forever death trapped by their student loans they can NEVER escape. I hope that the ones who default get phone calls every 5 minutes for Sallie Mae or whoever. Anyone without any student loans is light years superior to any lawyer with student loans. I can look at myself in the mirror and know I don't have any student loans, never have, never will, CAN YOU?

  32. A law degree from Western State is nothing more than a so called "mickey mouse" degree. It is absolutely worthless, there is no point in using it anywhere. At the very maximum, it may qualify one to work in fast food, but I wouldn't even count on that. The good news for Western State grads is that if you have such a degree, the simple solution is to not use it in any way. Do not list it anywhere, do not discuss it anywhere, it will only make you look stupid. This should be no problem so long as you don't have any student loans, and simply paid your tuition in a normal fashion by writing a check at the start of the semester.

  33. As stated at the outset of this posting "Due to our collective efforts, law school enrollment continues to drop. Thank you for your help", it behooves future law students to be able to spot dubious law schools. Of course, this is easily accomplished by the negative publicity surrounding a given school (such as Western State). Also, too keep your ears open for what you don't hear. What i mean here is that if you observe any fellow students seemingly merrily marching along at a bogus school with no complaints, look further. I guarantee that these students have an "in" through some other way where the school itself does not matter such as a friend or relative already established. Watch out for more obscure examples such as a supervising probation officer trying to become a public defender or a legal secretary, paralegal or similar bs going to law school. If your school has these types of students, watch out, or better yet, get out! Law schools are like houses for sale; if they are telling an underling story to the prospective buyer (student, etc.), you always know it is a story that the seller doesn't want you to hear! But when you do hear it as a prospective student consumer, YOU are empowered to not attend, and that will be that smartest thing you ever did.

  34. WSU captures the legal secretary, paralegal, the high school teacher who teaches business(oxymoron), the cop, the probation officer.In sum, WSU panders to those discontented with their jobs or craves professional status the way a young adult male craves a "panty dropper" sports car.

  35. I am an 2008 Western Grad. I live in the streets of LA, under a bridge next to the viaduct. Sometimes other homeless men pee in my mouth when I'm sleeping. I'm posting this from the public library. I just took my weekly shower at the YMCA here. There's still a few hours of light left in the day. Now I'll go back to selling oranges on the freeway and trying to find a nice spot in the park to rest my head tonite. NO ONE is going to help you with anything. You better do it yourself, because that is the only person that cares. The group I studied with at WSU from 2005-2008 are all doing about as well as am I. One of my study partners threw himself in front of a city bus 2 years ago. He got off easy. Nothing but regrets here. Special 'thanks' to professors Mohr, Buckner, Brower, Brennan, and Molko! Burn in hell, you thieves.

    1. are you kidding? You couldn't even get a fast food job? A job ANYWHERE? a secretary, a clerk, hell even sales? And your ENTIRE class too?


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