Saturday, February 6, 2010

Third Tier Quinnipiac to Open a Medical School

At the suggestion of medicinesux, I am proud to present my analysis of Quinnipiac University’s plans to open up a medical school:

Adding a medical school to its existing schools of law, communications, business, education, health sciences and College of Arts and Sciences will continue Quinnipiac's transformation into a major national university. There are only 200 American Bar Association approved law schools, 135 approved U.S. medical schools, and only 89 universities in America (out of 3,600) that have both law and medical schools.

Yeah, sure Quinnipiac is on the verge of becoming a “major national university.” And I am on the verge of making $140K a year. Just because there are ONLY 89 universities with both a medical school and a law school, does not mean that a fourth-rate institution of higher learning needs to be the ninetieth one!!

Quinnipiac President John L. Lahey said Thursday the university would begin the complex process of opening the medical school, enrolling the first class in 2013 or 2014 on its new campus in North Haven. The initial class will have about 50 students and the school will eventually have 500.

It is not clear whether the school’s total enrollment will reach 500 or whether this will be the targeted class size. However, we need to look at the total amount of MDs produced annually by American medical schools. This info is from the American Association of Medical Colleges:

According to page 3 of this PDF, there were 16,468 MDs awarded from all U.S. medical schools, for the Class of 2009. Now, imagine if Quinnipiac were to produce close to 500 annual MDs. That would represent close to 3 percent of all MDs produced in a year!! Viewing this chart, you can see that there are currently 127 MD-granting institutions in this country.

Let’s take a look at the school’s law program:

That has to be an error. US News lists this in the third tier of American law schools. Surely, such a national university cannot be housing a third-tier, third-rate law school.

Tuition and Fees: For a full-time student attending Third Tier Quinnipiac for the 2009-2010 academic year, tuition and fees amount to $40,780.

Total Cost of Attendance: $60,536 for those full-time students living on their own. For those FT students living at home, the total COA is only $54,504.

Cost for a Health Law LLM: Tuition for full-time students for the 2009-2010 school year is $33,600, and 16,800 for part-time students. And an LLM from this prestigious, national program will surely set one apart in the legal market, right?!?!

Sadly, there is a demand for such a shoddy “legal education.” According to the law school’s website there were more than 2,800 applicants for 160 seats, in the Fall 2009 first-year class.

Look at this pathetic Career Services page:

Your law degree from Quinnipiac University prepares you for a broad range of legal careers. More than 90 percent of Quinnipiac University School of Law graduates secure employment within nine months of graduation. The role of career services is to guide you to employment that will lead to a satisfying and productive professional career. Are you an employer?

Yeah, your Quinnipiac University J.D. prepares you for all sorts of interesting legal and non-legal “careers” – such as rodeo clown, latte server, janitor, bill collector, bus driver, unemployed artist, insurance claims adjuster, bartender, etc.

Now, does anyone think that Quinnipiac’s medical school will fare any better?! More than likely, they will contribute to producing too many physicians and health care workers in this country. I know plenty of doctors who are drowning in debt, and have no shot in hell of even hoping to pay it all off.

We need another fourth-rate medical school, like we need another Hurricane Katrina to hit our shores.


  1. Now you are beating up on medical schools? God! You'vr mentioned Quinnipiac on here before. Did they deny you admittance to their program or something?

  2. You need to add D.O.'s to complete your analysis.

  3. Do you have that data available? Remember, I am not a physician. I want to help spread the word on the plight of doctors as well. But I need to catch up to speed.

    I am reading in other sources, as well, that the distinctions between MDs and DOs are starting to erode, as primary care treatment is declining - even though DOs are supposed to place a greater emphasis on primary care. The perceived doctor shortage also serves as one of the main reasons cited by colleges that want to start up medical schools.

    I had friends who attended Des Moines University and were able to land non-osteopathic residencies. The school makes no secret of this:

    See the amount of general surgery residencies? What about those in internal and emergency medicine?

    DOs from this school can apply for non-osteopathic residencies with the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education.

  4. Please don't beat up on DOs. I know a bunch of them and they're good doctors.

    Though, I will say that most DOs can directly compete with MDs. They are basically equivalents as long as the DO student decides to take all the "Step 1" and Step 2 and all the MD exams.

    I think I mentioned D.O.s on a random jdu entry as a response to one of your posts praising the AMA. I said that although the AMA has good control over limiting M.D. granting institutions, they can't control M.D. competitor degrees such as the D.O. (for almost any specialty) and also the O.D. (for eye doctors) and the D.P.M. (for foot doctors). But I wasn't trying to disparage the D.O. or anything like that. I think my point was that even if J.D.-granting institutions can be limited, a random competitor degree can always just pop up and then we'd be back to square one.

  5. Thanks for this insightful post and raising awareness on the bastardization of professional degrees in this country. I would like to further expand on the comment how the AMA has been better at restricting the number of schools than the ABA. Let me just say that the tide is definitely changing. Not only are D.O.s outside the regulatory realm of the AMA but so are NOCTOR (nurse doctor) schools. These are programs for nurses to get their doctorates (the most watered down doctorate you could imagine) who can then go on and practice primary care as if they were a board certified internist. I did a whole write up on this recently here - . Imagine paralegals being able to get doctorates of paralegal studies and competing with JD's for law school jobs! Oh and it's quite the shocker when you go to your high school reunion and find out that the cheerleader chick who flunked high school bio is now a noctor and armed with a prescription pad. Scary stuff!

  6. I am glad to do my part, in bringing the professional degree racket to the attention of young people and the general public. We are all in the same boat. We know that MBAs, JDs and engineering advanced degrees have been watered-down for quite some time. (I know several MBAs who work in call centers.) Now, it is time for doctors and dentists to join in the fun!

    Those of you reading this blog should also check out MD Underground and medicinesux at:

    There, you will see MDs and medical students discussing the rapid expansion of medical school enrollment, and plans for a dozen new medical schools. You will also see how competitive it is to find residencies, and the rise of "nurse doctors."

    In the last analysis, “professional schools” are proliferating because they are money magnets. They feed off of public dollars and the unshakeable American belief that "education is the key to financial and personal success." As if ending up $200K in the hole - for the opportunity to work in a shrinking/oversaturated job market - is a recipe for success. Apparently, throwing legions of highly-educated, motivated, young people into a lifetime of debt slavery is good for the health of the nation.

  7. Tuition is out of control. We see 60K a year in tuition and living expenses and we no longer even blink. No wonder we're all drowning in debt. We are in serious need of an overhaul of our education system and that includes tuition and student loans. This simply cannot be sustained and young people are getting crushed by their debt.

  8. At $60k a year, if Quinnipiac did reject him (which I doubt), it would have been doing Nando a favor.

  9. Nando,

    Please, oh please dont let this blog go off track by talking about med schools. It will not help bring light to those of us lawyers struggling to stay afloat thanks to this country's unbridled adoption of a debt financed education system. Doctor's have it bad, no doubt, but med schools cost alot to run. Law schools are just cash cows. Might I suggest devoting blog entires to each of the Tier 4 schools and move on to the Tier 3, highlighting the lying and employment stat shannagans these bastions of education used and continue to use to pull the wool over the eyes of students and the public.

    Some of these schools at the bottom of the bowl even require students to purchase school sponsored health insurance if they lack their own coverage. No doubt the schools are getting rewarded by health insurance companies for selling their low benefit policies. No doubt other scams are afoot at the toilet level. Please keep exposing them.

  10. Let's pray that the medical profession doesn't go the way of the legal profession. Q University, I fear, is starting a trend that may not be reversed! Think of the overindulgent eater -- a bite here and a bite there won't hurt -- and, suddenly, he's 20 pounds overweight. Thanks for bringing this to like. I'll be sure to tell everyone I meet to beware of ALL professional degree programs.

  11. Some of those toilet pictures are nasty, but they have a powerful effect in associating disgusting images with law school. Keep it up!

  12. If you are interested in exposing NYLS, I have pictures of their career services Spring Recruitment website. It has two employers: Army JAG and Air Force JAG

  13. Funny, nearly all the people I know from Quinnipiac (who were around the same year as me) have decent jobs in the legal field. Mine's somewhat law related but I'll take my industry over the typical legal job any day of the week.

    This is news to me but the only person I know who'd be going to med school can go for free in TX. I know why the school was apparently Tier 4; apparently, the old grading system left people w/lower GPAs unlike at Yale, where grade inflation takes place (I do have some direct knowledge on this). The ranking system is nothing but a crock to begin with; if you waste your time evaluating people's worth on it, then you're a loser who will get what's coming sooner or later.

    If you're going to shut down the lower ranked schools, how about nailing the T1s for grade inflation & not giving points to the established old money hogs? Maybe penalize some firms? Just saying.

  14. EN, I didn’t apply to Quinnipiac. Probably just some troll from that school’s admin offices.

    To 8:43, I am referring people to medicinesux and MD Underground specifically because those sites can address the problem for MDs and even dentists better than I can. I am simply trying to help them get the word out to potential med students. Yes, those professional schools require lots of capital investments, whereas law schools are relatively cheap to open and operate. But please note that there are plans for many new medical schools, and the slots for residencies are about the same.

    JD Underdog, I will keep the heat on these schools. I think the images are pretty effective, too.

    Symeon, send me any info/pictures you have. I am interested in exposing any overpriced TTT that relies on fraudulent and distorted employment and starting salary figures, in order to dupe more young people out of their borrowed money. My email is Thanks!

    Angry Redheaded Lawyer, I am not really concerned about grade inflation at the Ivy League schools, because schools are now businesses. They want to cater to their customers, i.e. students. Professors are now mere customer service reps. Plus, Ivy League students tend to be very insecure and pampered to begin with; hence why many top law schools do not even use a traditional letter grade system anymore.

    This is not only a problem at Ivy League law schools. Case in point: both of my sister-in-laws teach at garbage schools, i.e. one at a local community college and another at the omnipresent University of Phoenix. And both have had parents and administrators complain to them about their grading. Apparently, you cannot give someone a “D” or an “F” – even if that is what they earned. You must give them plenty of “extra credit assignments” or give them a grade bump, if they attend class. They are paying customers, after all. If you upset them, they may go to the diploma mill down the street.

    Grade inflation is also a problem at most undergrad institutions, private and public. The reality is that UGPAs have shot up significantly in the last 20 years or so. We are a nation filled with entitled young people. You cannot spank your child, even if he proves to be a complete menace. (God forbid you discipline the little fiend.) Many grade schools have abandoned letter grade systems, and kids are smothered by “professional parents” who put them in little leagues where everyone gets a trophy. As a result, you see things like this:

  15. I posted this before. Toward the end on the 19th century, there were such a things as "store front" medical schools. You had two years basic college work + two years medical study = bachelors of medicine. What stopped/closed them down was requiring medical Clerkship rotations. These Clerkship Rotations occur in the 3d and 4th year of medical school. NY specifically required these Clerkships to qualify to enter its state licensing residencies.

    IF you look at Quinnipac's website they already offer:

    "The North Haven Campus houses all of the School of Health Sciences programs, including nursing, physician assistant, physical therapy, occupational therapy, pathologist assistant, radiology assistant and diagnostic imaging. A new anesthesiology assistant program also will be offered on the North Haven Campus next fall."

    The PA and NP programs mirror the first two years of Med school. Quinnipac has these in place already. It's the 3d and 4th year that is a bitch: they require a university hospital AFFILIATED with the university. A university hospital facility for a 80 person class size is not profitable for most universities. Law Schools are cheaper by far!

  16. You're way off base with this post. The employment situation in America for newly-licensed doctors is in no way comparable to the sitation for newly-licensed lawyers. There is a definite shortage of primary care doctors in many parts of the United States. These areas must rely on graduates of Indian and Carribean medical schools for their primary care needs.

    Any graduate of an American medical school can obtain a residency position in primary care somewhere in the country, as a substantial portion of these spots go unfilled. After his/her training, he/she can easily obtain decent-paying employment working for another doctor or in the hospital emergency room. I know doctors who make more than $200,000 a year working in the emergency rooms of rural hospitals. Eventually, these young doctors will almost surely be able to save the money necessary to start their own practices and they can count on a patient base.

    Sure being a primary care physician is grueling work and they make far less than surgeons and some of the other specialties. But even a primary care physician who sees Medicaid patients only can still earn a decent living and will eventually be able to pay back his/her school loan.

    Your comment that "we need another fourth-rate medical school like we need another Hurricane Katrina" is really obnoxious. The United States could definitely use at least another dozen medical schools to address its shortage of primary care doctors. I'd rather see these doctors trained at American schools than having to go offshore. Furthermore, importing Indian doctors to meet our health-care requirments does a tremendous dissservice to India's public health needs.

    With the exception of this post, I commend your blog for doing a public service in pointing out the dangers of borrowing substantial amounts of money to attend TTTs. But the situation of TTTs, which primarily train lawyers to work in the small-law arena, and lesser-ranked American medical schools, which play an important role in filling the need for primary care doctors, is not the same. Small law has become so saturated with practicioners that there simply is no need for any newcomers. Hence the subtantial portion of recent TTT grads who will either never practice law or will leave the field after a few years of low-paying work and will never be able to pay off their loans by doing the jobs they were trained to do. Not the same for primary care doctors.

  17. Uh, this is ridiculous. How is it possible I'm the first person to comment about how law schools and medical schools are unrelated?

    Per your USNews law school are some other well-established medical schools with low-tier law schools: Creighton, Michigan State, Hawaii, Little Rock, Nebraska, North Dakota, South Dakota, Toledo, Wayne State, West Virginia, Howard, Mercer, Texas Tech...

    Guess we better avoid all the med school graduates from those universities, eh? Because how a university's law department truly indicates the quality of its (COMPLETELY UNRELATED) med school graduates!

    Get over yourself.

  18. The schools you mention do have good medical programs. Of course the reputation of a university’s law school does not indicate the strength of its medical school. Do you have a problem with reading comprehension? Honestly, how did you manage to make such a leap of logic?

    Quinnipiac claimed that the addition of a medical school will put the school on the cutting edge – and will make it “a major national university.” I didn’t make the unfounded claim – the school did. Got that?!?

    Employers don’t care where someone attended medical school, for several reasons. Those students all participate in clinic and rotations, where they learn practical skills and work on ACTUAL patients!! Wow – imagine that! Then, after graduation, these new doctors then work in residency programs, where they get further hands-on training and take on the responsibilities of being a doctor. In law school, clinical programs are NOT required; there is no apprenticeship training – for the vast majority of students; the education is largely abstract and derived from reading parsed, appellate cases; and fresh attorneys are pretty much just dumped on the public. (If you cannot get hired by a law firm, you are on your own – in terms of learning the skills you need to make it. You also need to compete with firms and established solo offices that have the reputation and the funds to advertise all over the place.)

    Also, there are so many damn law schools, that the market truly is over-saturated. As such, employers do care where you went to law school. Law is all about prestige and connections. If you don’t have the right credentials from the right schools, or know the right people, you are screwed. In fact, from THE MOMENT one enters a TTT or TTTT, his future opportunities are limited. This is not the case with medical school. You can go to medical school at Nova Southeastern and your future opportunities are not limited – certainly not to the extent if you had attended Nova Southeastern’s fourth tier law school!

    Many MDs are concerned that the AMA is starting to follow the ABA’s lead, in approving too many new schools – which means MORE medical students. (Understand, or did I lose you?) Furthermore, med students are upset that the AMA is allowing too many DOs and skilled nurses to practice medicine. These students and recent doctors are also concerned that the number of residencies is staying the same, when the number of students is increasing. Can you do the math?

  19. You are absolutely right. Quinnipiac University School of Law is a fraud, they lie to you to take your borrowed tutition dollars than tell you to blow off when you cant find a job. Do not go to law school at Quinnipiac, and get a mental health examination if you still want to go to law school anyway.

    The financial aid department is committing criminal fraud. If you are a white male, you get no money, end of story. If you are something in the "other category, you will get $20 and a kick in the pants.

    The career services staff, I would rather go back to my public high school guidance counselor and ask her which fast food restaraunt is hiring. If anybody tells you different, then you are the fool taking advice. "Trust and you shall be trusted, said the liar to the fool"

    I was the fool and now I pay over 1400 a month for that foolish mistake.

  20. I'm a white male. I received a half scholarship to Quinnipiac. Get good grades at a decent law school and shut up. Whiners.

  21. asdsdffffffffffffffff

  22. q;wkljeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee;lkjd;lajskdjgkjasjkg;sdjk;gkj;kjasdgkjdsgkskld;kls;daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

  23. To the babbling moron at 1:17 and 1:23 pm,

    Quinnipiac is a piece of trash, by any objective measure. I guess this post hurt your feelings. Is this the best trash can you could get into?! Guess what, bitch? It is better to learn the truth now, rather than take on $115K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE student debt - for a worthless degree.

    Also, what is the relevance of your race, Dumbass? Were you attempting to show that white male law students can have an IQ of 81, and still get accepted to "unranked" Quinnipiac?!

    By the way, did you notice that US News is no longer listing schools as third or fourth tier? I guess crusty toilets such as Quinnipiac were bitching and crying about being branded as trash pits.

  24. Lindsay Rosenwald Lindsay Rosenwald – Director Of Republican Jewish Coalition and his accomplishments in field of Biotechnology.

  25. Have no idea about the quality of Quinnipiac's law school, but this country desperately needs more physicians, especially primary care physicians. Countless hospitals are fighting to add physicians; primary care docs complain about being overworked, and patients, especially in rural areas, often wind up dealing with a foreign medical grad who speaks English poorly and doesn't understand our culture.

    The State of Pennsylvania is getting behind the founding of a medical school in Scranton because that area has an acute shortage of docs, and Pennsylvania has a shortage in general, in part due to high malpractice costs.

    Most of the class at UMASS Medical (Worcester) is going for free, according to a student I met there. They have to practice somewhere in the state for four years in exchange for free medical school, he said.

    Quinnipiac's med school will have to be accredited; the powers that be will not allow them to send physicans off to residency programs who are incompetent. Residency programs will not allow Quinnipiac graduates to complete their training if they are incompetent (and it's far easier to get through Harvard Law than any residency program).

    You may have some bee in your bonnet about law schools and your legal education (grow up - figure out a way to make a living, and stop whining here, you fool - this web site is a major waste).

    But get out of commentary about medical schools until you know something about healthcare.

    It's great news that Quinnipiac is adding a med school. I wish other schools would, as well.

    By the way, I have no connection to Quinnipiac, but am a consultant to healthcare organizations, among other types of organizations.

  26. Quinnipiac is an excellent private university. US News ranks the law school #107, occupational therapy #52, and physician assistant program #11 nationally. All three programs continue to improve every year. Quinnipiac polls are mentioned in the national media every single day. It is the most prestigious university run poll in the nation. I dare you find one that is more respected.

    The fact that you hate your education, your debt, and your life has absolutely no connection to QU. The overwhelming majority of QU students love their school, are successful, and are happy in life. You need to get a life.

  27. antioch1098,

    I have received plenty of requests to profile Quinnipiac Law recently. I suppose they want me to go more in-depth. You have inspired me to flush this turd down the commode. Thank you, ass-clown.

    As of 2009-2010, tuition and fees for the JD program amounted to $40,780. Let's see YOU justify that immense cost, bitch.

  28. That toilet beats every toilet of drinking pubs that I know of. What makes them qualified of setting up a medical school for that outrageously high amount?

  29. You are one pathetic human being, Nando.

  30. To the piece of trash who posted on April 10, 2012 at 8:42 am,

    Your mother is one pathetic human being, cockroach. She apparently raised you to be a stooge and a pawn. Good luck with that, moron. You live in the economic dead zone known as Ohio, bitch. How is that working out for you, dung beetle?! Is Quinnipiac the best law school you could get into, waterhead?!?!

    Get a life, loser bitch. Have fun at Quinnipiac "University" Sewer of Law, dumbass. Maybe your coloring book skills will serve you well, at this dung pit.

    From my analytics, retard:

    Visitor detail
    Visits: 2
    Unique ID: 2772657643
    IP address:
    Locale: Columbus, OH, USA / English
    Platform: Firefox 11.0 / Windows 7 / 1366x768

    Visits by this user in the last 7 days

    Apr 10 2012 8:36am 1 action 10s
    Apr 3 2012 5pm 1 action 10s


Web Analytics