Saturday, March 20, 2010

Close the Door! DePaul University College of Law


http://law.depaul.edu/applicants/costs_budget/

Tuition: for the 2009-2010 academic year, a full-time student at DePaul Law will pay $37,525.

Total Cost of Attendance: from this same page, we can see that this school estimates the total COA to be $60,266. That’s right – sixty thousand, two hundred and sixty-six U.S. dollars to attend this school for one year.

What’s that you say? This figure is for full-time students. Yes, you are correct. How could I have overlooked that? Part-time students at this school will have no problem paying tuition. You see, the total estimated COA for part-time law students at DePaul is estimated to be a MUCH more manageable $46,801. And who doesn’t have $46K lying around the house, under the couch cushions, right?!?

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/rankings/page+4

Ranking: According to US News & World Report, DePaul is tied with six other schools for the high honor of being the 87th greatest, most fantastic and amazing law school in the entire country!! Hell, for this stratospheric level of prestige, the school is a bargain. Why aren’t they charging $75K a year in yearly tuition alone?!

http://law.depaul.edu/students/career_services/students/

http://law.depaul.edu/students/career_services/general_information/resources_services.asp

Employment Prospects: Apparently, the school’s CSO puts out the same garbage as the other backed-up sewers. Where are the numbers, DePaul? Oh, wait! Maybe the school’s grads do SO well and make such large sums of money – upon graduation – that the school is afraid to list those figures. They don’t want to face a deluge of applications, right?!

http://law.depaul.edu/students/student_affairs/class_ranks_historical.asp

Historical Class Ranks: Well, at least the school is nice enough to let you know what you will need, in order to land in the top of the class. You think you can be in the top 5 percent of your class at this sewer? All you need to do is have a 3.734+ GPA. Sure, no problem! Who can’t get and maintain an A- average in law school? (Oh, that’s right – the bottom 95 percent of the class!!)

Maybe you are more down to earth. Perhaps you have less lofty expectations for yourself. To land in the top ten percent, you will need about a 3.642 GPA. This is a shade under an A- average. Many of you at DePaul and other similarly-situated toilets/sewers didn’t get a 3.7 GPA while majoring in “Political Science”! But, of course, YOU will be the exception.

Ooh! Look at all the joint degree programs the law school offers. (Grab another roll of toilet paper – you’ll need it.)

http://law.depaul.edu/programs/joint_degree/

Before the commencement of the second year of law school, the student must be independently accepted by the college that offers the other portion of the degree and meet all admission requirements for that college. The other Colleges include the Kellstadt Graduate School of Business (MBA), the College of Liberal Arts & Sciences (MS in Public Service Administration, MA in International Studies), and the College of Computer Science, Telecommunications and Information Technology (MA and MS in Computer Science Technology).

I mean, what employer – on the face of this earth – would not want to hire a DePaul Law grad with an MBA, or MA in “International Studies”)?!

http://law.depaul.edu/programs/areas_specialization/inter_comp_law.asp

But that’s not all this institution offers – you can also earn an International & Comparative Law Certificate!! And employers will climb over each other to hire someone with that illustrious credential, right?!

Conclusion: A law student from this school will have an uphill fight even getting noticed in the Chicago legal market, or what’s left of it. The cost is simply too high for most students. When taking the dismal job prospects that await the school’s grads into account, there is NO JUSTIFICATION for potentially going $180K in the hole. You don’t need a mountain of non-dischargeable debt to work as a bouncer, bartender, cab driver, or latte server. You also do not need a JD from a second tier sewer, i.e. DePaul, to work in auto parts delivery, insurance sales, or burger-flipping.

62 comments:

  1. Sweet Jesus! I know the school is shit, but that picture is hideous. Do your readers actually think these images are funny? I feel like throwing up dude.

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  2. i love the images!!! that is the best part.

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  3. I too love the images. It helps enhancethe story of each school featured on this blog. And, yes, DePaul is a toilet.

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    Replies
    1. That toilet looked like the one at my house when I grew up.

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  4. Good job tearing up the Chicago market...are you going to go after my alma mater, Southern Illinois, or is it not as bad a TTTT because the tuition is more "reasonable?"

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  5. Nando,
    Hopefully, Michigan law schools will be your next stop. The Michigan Attorney General now offers a 6 month, no pay internship for unemployed lawyers!! You have to work 20 hours per week for 6 months for no pay to receive a certificate which will be attractive to prospective legal employers! Yes, sure we all want to work for free because we don't have bills. I'm sure doing volunteer clerical work or even if it is legitimate work for free will make legal employers beg for your services. Shouldn't this internship been offered in law school.

    So, if you want to work for free please become an attorney.

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  6. I have other schools on my radar, 11:44. I will get to Wayne $TTTaTTTe, Michigan $TTTaTTTe, and Detroit-Mercy in time. However, I DEFINITELY have something in store for the trash can known to the world as Thomas M. Cooley Law School.

    When people tell you - as an attorney - that you should toil away and volunteer for a firm, they are basically telling you to be a stooge. If you are working for someone else for free, after passing the bar, law firms may figure that you are a loser. Why would employers be impressed with someone so desperate for work, that they are busy making money for someone else - without any compensation for their efforts?!

    If I were an employer, I would be MORE impressed with someone who took a paid job - even if it was flipping burgers. At least, that shows the person is practical, humble and smart enough to pay his bills, student loans, and put food in his family's fridge.

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  7. I suspect that the reason tuition is so high at DePaul is 1. The drastic decrease in catholocism in the United States and 2. The high legal bills from the church having to defend their pedophile priests. I won't even shop in the catholic resale stores anymore. The Vatican and St. Peter's Basilica which I toured 3 years ago is nothing more than mind boggling, obnoxious wealth designed to intimidate. I was with a group so I had to go, but if I ever go back to Rome, I will never go back to the Vatican.

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  8. I almost matriculated as a 1L to this dump last fall. I work in a large Chicago insurance company. We occasionally use temps for special projects, and early last year we had 2 DePaul grads (from 2008) working on a long-term project, both making around $15/hr. This was before I knew of JDUnderground and the various legal blogs (as well as the decline of the profession in general), and I made a point of asking them why they weren't working in a law firm. One was from California and planned to move back after finding work there (She even had the Certificate in IP Law - I'm surprised Cisco Systems didn't bring her on as CEO).

    I became aware of the legal blogs by accident, and by the end of the summer I decided to give up the dream and keep my $60,000/yr job and my very manageable $20,000 in federal student loans. My wife, friends, and family very predictably thought I was crazy, attributing the bad market as just a fluke and reassuring me that everything would be fine come graduation. Though I was initially depressed, I now wake up every morning knowing that I made a very smart decision.

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  9. You made a terrific decision! You did what was BEST for you, your family, and your economic future. I don't see how anyone can fault you, for deciding to keep your job and avoiding tons of student debt.

    Law schools try to play the terrible legal market off as a temporary symptom of the economic downturn. The reality is this: Biglaw is now deciding to use foreign lawyers and non-lawyers to engage in American legal work. The ABA issued "Ethics" Opinion 08-451 decision on August 25, 2008. Just look at the falling pay rates for U.S. contract attorneys, since that time.

    Even when the economy improves, large companies and law firms are going to continue to outsource and offshore their work. Plus, those employers will see that they made it through tough financial times with a skeleton crew of U.S. workers. They will NOT suddenly decide to hire a bunch of recent JDs - simply because there are so many who are unemployed and available to work.

    We are in the midst of a fundamental re-structuring of the U.S. economy. Right now, law school is a poor decision for ANYONE who is not well-connected or independently wealthy. This is especially the case for those who are paying full sticker and/or attending low-ranked schools. It is unfortunate that many law students think it matters if their school is ranked 71st or 87th. This allows schools to market themselves as “first tier” or “solid second tier.”

    I am glad that you stumbled onto these blogs, as well as JD Undergroud. These sites provide good sources of information - to counter the lies and fabrications put out by the law school industry.

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  10. LustyLarrysToiletMarch 20, 2010 at 3:44 PM

    Superhero decides to quit job and attend TTT!

    http://www.xtranormal.com/profile/2302801/?listid=11470781

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  11. Nando,
    You can express yourself quite well as it is without resorting to the grotesque toilet photos. They're highly distracting and make you appear very tasteless and bitter.

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  12. And charging people $40,000 a year in tuition while the dean drives a luxury car makes the law school appear professional? these schools are toilets, and I don't see anythign wrong with the likeness. (This pic is probably the worst of the bunch, btw.)

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    Replies
    1. Maybe the school can provide a nice room in the lounge area with free male and female prostitutes available between classes to blow your load and ease up the tensions.

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  13. LOL, its the pictures that make him seem bitter..., Nando is 43545345345 times more TTT then Cooley and People's college of law combined. I'm just waiting for him to end his own misery.

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  14. I like the photos. Waiting for you to get to the NYC metttro area schools.

    Keep up the good work.

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  15. I bet they have tons of students ready to pay tuition at sticker. Probably have rich parents who at least think it's gonna be "worth the prestige" and "once the economy gets back on its feet they'll get a 160k+ a year job"

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  16. great pictures -- great information coupled with the other blogs -- provides a great niche blog and complements the other information out there for would be victims of FRAUD

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  17. What is depicted in that photo is truly a work of art - worthy of museum exhibition.

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  18. The picture is nasty, but not nearly as nasty as the 60K budgeted for a year at this shithole. Carry on Nando. Good work. But you should challenge yourself a bit. this is low hanging fruit.

    You need to go after some of the higher ranked schools that are still toilets if you're outside the top 10% like SMU, Wake Forest, Emory. Those places really feed on the gullible. 95% of the people entering those schools think they will be in the top 5% of the class.

    Its time to take them on and shut them down!!!

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  19. @6:19pm:
    End your life, douche.
    @Nando:
    Keep up the good work man.
    -Law School Victim 23423523654

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  20. Thanks for the support, guys. Don't worry. I will keep this blog going, despite the cockroach at 6:19 - and other defenders of his ilk. Yes, the images are disgusting. That is the point. These schools are toilets of law - and SHOULD be depicted as such.

    These dumps distort their employment and starting salary figures - for the express purpose of enticing more young people to take the plunge. The schools get paid up front - with federal tax money, no less. You, the student, are stuck with the bill (plus interest and dismal job prospects) for the next 30 years.

    At 6:59, right now I am taking on the second tier sewers. The word is starting to get out about "first tier" schools, as well. Too bad the lemmings still get all caught up in whether their toilet is ranked 39th or 46th. It simply doesn't matter. Look for some posts on first tier festering toilets in a few weeks.

    That being said, my next entry will be on Thomas Cooley, because it is about the worst diploma mill out there.

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  21. For anecdotal info. I've got a friend who I went to high school with. He went to Emory and did the JD/MBA program. Has no job. He's probably just gonna end up working for his father (owns some type of warehouse and they make decent money)

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  22. Nando - forget the haters - I LOVE the pictures and this blog. I continue to be appalled by the sheer number of these shitholes.

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  23. You are correct, person who decided to fore go going to law school!

    You were lucky to work in a job where you got to see for yourself what's going on. As for anybody who has something to say about it, I've bitterly come to the conclusion that people get the right to say something if they're offering to pay your tuition. It's much more fun to toss in your two cents when you aren't the one carrying the debt load and investing about five years of your life in making the dream happen.

    (Yep. Once you count the application process, the three years of school, the bar, and then the subsequent job hunt for people who weren't lucky enough to have anything lined up at the beginning of their third year, you're talking about a bigger chunk of your life than the simple three years you spent in law school, and not counting the decades that this debt is going to haunt you).

    Yes, if it is SO easy, why aren't THEY trying to enroll in law school? They all have great excuses that apparently don't apply in your life.

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  24. I am the 2005 Kent grad from Chicago who posted on the Kent entry. The odd thing about DePaul is that it used to be a very distinguished and affable school. There are tons of judges and older big law partners who went there. Now, it has become like the rest of them.

    I've recently been connected with a junior in college who dreams of going to law school and says she can't imagine doing anything else. I wrote her a long email about student loans and low paying jobs, but she still insists. I think my email may have been too gentle. I think she needs to see these blogs. I also sent your blog to a friend I graduated with.

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  25. To follow up on what Kent Grad said, I think all of the TTTs in Chicago Nando has highlighted (with the exception of JMLS) actually have fairly respectable reputations in Chicago, particularly in the judiciary and the older partners at biglaw and midlaw firms. I think that all of these schools would still be worth attending if you really want to be a lawyer and it is possible to graduate with less than 30K total in debt (undgergrad, law school, living expense, etc). You would just have to accept that you most likely will not make a high salary right out of school, but if you can get into a good government job (state clerkship in the Daley Center, state's attorney, etc), you have a decent chance of moving into midlaw down the road assuming you didn't graduate at the bottom of the class.

    However, these schools are simply not worth 100K+ to attend. At that point, the only way you will be able to pay back loans and still live reasonably well is if you land a six figure job right out of school. Given the other top tier schools in the area that place well in Chicago, getting one of those jobs is highly unlikely for most students going to these schools. Its really unfortunate and the Chicago TTTS should be ashamed of themselves for charging outrageously expensive tuition and misleading prospective students.

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  26. is there a real toilet out there in the world that looks like this? was this photo staged? Seriously I can't un-see this photo.. it is burnt in my law-school educated brain...help

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  27. Great pic! You let them have it nando. The nastier the better.

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  28. Blogs like this expose the disgusting underbelly of law schools and provide an invaluable service...

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  29. More like, "courtesy flush please."

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  30. http://lawschoolheadlines.com/aba-shrugs-at-former-depaul-law-school-deans-complaint/

    This article was posted on July 28, 2009.

    Two days after the dean of the law school sent a letter to the ABA, the school fired him. He has since been replaced with an interim dean.

    Look at the comments on this article. It looks like DePaul’s toilet reputation precedes it. And to think, this commode has the nerve to charge $37,525 in yearly tuition!

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  31. That is one freakin' hilarious picture!!!

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  32. 6:19= a dreamy-eyed 1L who went to law school so that he could change the world.

    Keep dreamin' kiddo!

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  33. TTT Grad's first day at biglaw:

    http://www.xtranormal.com/makemovies/edit_movie/c5cbbc7e-36f3-11df-9314-003048d69c21/bge/?nosearch=1&noregion=1

    Click on play in the right frame.

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  34. Nando -
    Nice comments in National Jurist. I applaud you for letting the magazine use your real name and mention this blog.

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  35. I like to talk about stool.

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  36. This is an awesome toilet. It reminds me of lawyers in general.

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  37. Solution: All law schools ranked lower than 100 should CLOS.

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  38. wow, I can't tell you how this just made my day.

    Okay, so, I graduated from a lovely uppity east-coast women's college, BA in International Relations, I speak 3 languages, I've been a paralegal for several years in Chicago, and yet, I have been declined from every fucking law school on the planet--including DePaul.

    But seriously, I'm starting to think it might be the best thing that's ever happened to me.

    I love the *idea* of going to law school, studying international law, etc., but the economy and the legal industry are so far down the shitter, that I don't think it's a good idea anymore.

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  39. I was accepted to DePaul for this coming fall. I didn't know much about the school when I received information in the mail from them, but the comments in this blog are more than enough to steer me away. I was under the impression that Chicago's legal market was more robust. In fact, i was accepted to several law schools, but after talking to a few recent law grads from my undergrad university, I've decided to keep my $50,000/year job in television production. At least I have very minimal student debt. I don't want to graduate from a toilet and get a $35000/year job working as a lawyer for prepaid legal. Thanks for this blog!

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  40. Great blog. I went to that shithole depaul for 4 1/2 years nights, and failed out (curved out) with only 3 classes left and a job lined up, I was already at the firm. That was 22 years ago. I have had major depression since that day, I was NEVER depressed before. I worked my own way through college and law school, I never had a safety net. DePaul (John Roberts, John Decker, Katherine Duetenhaver) sat on the most half-assed readmission committee- never even met with me in person. Bunch of liars, theives, and con artists. But so full of ego! Jeez, you'd think they ENJOY watching the suicide stats go up. I'd kill myself except that I have kids, that would destroy them. Shit on Depaul, and particulaly that effing stroke, john roberts.

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  41. People like Roberts just waltz through life thinking they can do whatever they want, and no one is every going to just reach out and 'touch' them.

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  42. I went to DePaul, graduated in 2007. After 3 years of hell and curved grades, I graduated and passed the bar the first time. It took 6 months to find a job with ABSOLUTELY NO HELP from Career Services. My job - $45K/year and only crappy health insurance as a benefit (no dental, no vision, no retirement help, 10 total days off). My debt - $150K. I was barely making ends meet. To make it clear - That is $2500/month after taxes. Average rent - $1200/month for a one bedroom. Groceries - about $200-300/month. I owe $750/month in loans. THAT LEAVES ABOUT $200-$300/mo TO PAY FOR RETIREMENT/INSURANCE AND UTILITIES. Even 3 years later, just got a minimal salary increase and have been searching for a new job for 7 months and counting. Got 2 offers - for LESS than I'm making at my first firm!

    The law market in Chicago is RIDICULOUS! There are NO postings for entry level jobs and barely any quality positions for someone with 3 years experience. If you are thinking about law school - don't do it. NONE of the TT,TTT,TTTT schools in Chicago have the career services they boast. They can't - there are NO JOBS.

    I hope this gives someone who is thinking about law school some insight on the real financial problems with going to law school and living in a big city. Unless you can live at mom & dads for 10 years - you won't make ends meet! I saw one or two posting recently for undergrad jobs - offering only $35K per year, NO benefits!!!!!!! Guarantee about 500 people applied to that job - even for that low of a salary because of the number of unemployed. By the way - I know someone with 2 years experience that applied to that job who is unemployed. The chances of landing that crap is even rare!

    Save yourselves from the stress & regret if you can!

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  43. so many poopy toilets......someone has a fetish!

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  44. "so many poopy toilets......someone has a fetish!"

    That is called projection, bitch. You might need to look up the term, idiot.

    These schools are filth pits. They distort and manipulate employment and starting salary figures, for the purpose of enticing more lemmings to take the plunge. They then fill these kids with useless knowledge, which DOES NOT adequately prepare them to pass the bar exam, let alone practice. Yet, these commodes are happy to charge their students a small fortune.

    These low ranked law schools produce graduates who will face TTT job prospects. Hence, they are flushed down the toilet. And you want me to address this topic in genteel, academic terms?!?! You are only pretending to be this dense, correct?

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  45. Nando, im just curious. You said that you attended Drake University Law. What percentile did you graduate in and what was your law school GPA?

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  46. "Nando, im just curious. You said that you attended Drake University Law. What percentile did you graduate in and what was your law school GPA?

    June 29, 2011 3:31 PM"

    Precisely.

    If this prestige-whoring "profession" were not so festeringly overcrowded, that would hardly matter, would it?

    Next time you visit you physician for a check -up, ask him if only those he graduated medical school with who were in the top 10% of the class got residencies. See what he says.

    See where I'm going with this?

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    Replies
    1. I'm sorry but I will take the A student lawyer or doctor over the C student any day.

      Delete
  47. Anyone else on here aware of what a shit the dean emeritus is? The pic at the top of this blog has more class than Roberts ever had. And smells a lot better, too.

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  48. So I was one of the lucky ones. I busted my ass, graduated top 10% and order of the coif in early 2002 (when people were still hiring and tuition was actually only $19k) and landed at top tier national law firm.

    That being said, please DO NOT mistake this entry as a "see, you can do awesome things at DePaul" reply. No, that is NOT the case. I may have done exceptionally well, but ask the other 90% of my classmates how they fared. Knowing what I know now today, I would NEVER have went to DePaul (or at least I should have tried to transfer to Northwestern after my 1L).

    First, contrary to what people would like to believe, it does indeed matter what law school you attended (even after years and years of practice and building a great resume). You will ALWAYS be judged by you went to school and why you did not attend a better school. It smacks of elitism, and is utterly unfair, but it is reality.

    Second, 90% of my classmates had NO employment opportunities upon graduation . . and the economy was actual pretty solid. About 9 (people, NOT percent) went on to large, top tier firms in Chicago (Kirkland, Baker, Sidley etc.) another handful went to mid-tier firms where they earned a great salary. Otherwise, everyone else was SOL (in keeping with the theme of this blog).

    Lastly, and most importantly, when you attend a half-assed law school, it is not necessarily where you FINISH, but what you do your first year. You see, you interview for those prestigious summer association positions during the first semester of 2L (you start the summer between 2L and 3L). Thus, the only grades the law firms will see are your 1L grades. So, unless you ace your first year at DePaul, and land in the top ten, you will NEVER get a high paying summer internship. PERIOD.

    So if you re dreaming of a large salary in a prestigious law firm, you essentially have ONE year to get it right. Sad to say, but if you go to DePaul, and pull out a 3.5GPA (which is a decent GPA by most standards), you can pretty much kiss any opportunity of getting a good summer associate position good bye (and consequently, a job at a high paying law firm).

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  49. Graduated DePaul 20 years ago with full scholarship. Edited law review and was published. Spent 5 years at Biglaw, then went in-house when I was being pigeon-holed into a very narrow area of law. Now have a global VP position at a Fortune 500. I hated law school but have loved the work I do and the compensation. Jan 10 2:40 and Oct 31 6:09 are right. It's an elitist profession and I'd only recommend kids go to a top tier law school if they are interested in the work.

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  50. Had a friend who attend this school graduating in 2009. He was always on edge, always broke, but would fall back on the "enormous salary" he'd get when he graduated. He works for a paperclip law firm in Chicago as an "associate" (?) but from what I understand he's making about $60k/yr and has something like $200k in student loan debt. He's become a bitter husk of a person.

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  51. Great blog! Please tell me what you think of my DePaul University You Tube? My video exposes the sexual harassment complaints at school. I will also expose other things.

    DePaul University Admitted to Sexual Harassment

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAy7NMExZwo


    DePaul University - Philosophy Professor Was Accused of Sexual Harassment

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nSGb6M7NN4

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  52. Nando,

    You're hurting the feelings of emotionally retarded cocksuckers who really, really, really want to be lawyers. They don't want someone telling them the truth about this profession. Shame on you.

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  53. DePaul is a real shithole. Tuition's higher now so the students can get fucked harder.

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  54. DePaul, while not perfect, should not be targeted so strongly. A DePaul law degree is highly valued by other DePaul alumns in Chicago - and there are a lot of us.

    I'm in my 30's and made $225K last year, I don't think anyone is going to say I wasted my time at DePaul. I am very grateful for my DePaul education.

    People who complain about not having a job need to get over themselves. Maybe being a lawyer just isn't for you. Overcoming adversity is one of the greatest traits of good lawyers.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. When did you graduate from this third tier commode, Bitch? This is not 1985 or 1999, ass-clown.

      Take a look at the NALP National Summary Chart for the JD Class of 2011:

      http://www.nalp.org/uploads/NatlSummChart_Classof2011.pdf

      A total of 44,495 law graduates were competing for 27,224 jobs that required bar passage. Not all of those positions were traditional attorney jobs. Using this metric, ABA-accredited diploma mills pumped out 1.63 grads for each available opening. Do you see how that contributes to the GLUT of lawyers?!?!

      Scroll down to page two, Dumbass. Under the subheading "Type of Law Firm Job," you will notice that 14,930 grads reported working in private firms. The law schools collectively pumped out 2.98 JDs for each available attorney opening, i.e. 44,495/14,930.

      Get over yourself, cockroach. Don't pretend that your situation applies to everyone. Even the worst schools can claim individual success stories. However, that is the exception to the rule. By the way, when that happens, it is usually due to either: (a) the student had great family, political or business connections, and simply needed the academic "credential"; or (b) the pupil had great drive, and was able to bust their ass - while also catching a few lucky breaks.

      Delete
    2. Nando Calrissian

      Delete
  55. We are now down to third tier, while Kent is first. We should stage a demonstration and collectively burn our diplomas in front of the Jackson street campus.

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  56. What about obtaining a paralegal cert. For
    from De paul. Is that worthless as well. .. I decided not to go to law school. ..

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  57. A one hit wonder or more likely a big PI referral that comes around like a blue moon in a long career is statistical noise. It is atypical. Luck. Not hard work. If you string together 25 years of this day after day, client after client, I will give you credit. Otherwise, I know a DePaul grad who tried to Bankruptcy on his Wells Fargo student loans.

    ReplyDelete

 
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