Wednesday, March 3, 2010

Give It a Second Flush – Temple University James E. Beasley School of Law



Tuition and Fees: For the 2009-2010 academic year, full-time, in-state residents will pay $16,586. Out-of state students, who are attending on a full-time basis, will pay $28,876.


Also, take a look at all the fees. Temple law students who are graduating this year must pay a $65 graduation fee! And apparently, this is not a one-time charge. What?! Is that for printing and processing of the degree? Is this a way for the school to make money off of the ceremony? These “destitute” schools must find a way to make a profit after all, right?!

Job Prospects: Just take a look at this sampling from the Office of Career Planning:


We work to provide our students with ample employment opportunities and to educate students so that they can take advantage of, and capitalize on, these opportunities in an informed and judicious manner.

As a result, Temple Law students are very successful at finding jobs. 94 percent of the class of 2006 was employed within nine months of graduation. In addition to placing the largest number of students in large Philadelphia area law firms, we also placed more graduates in public interest jobs than the four other area law schools in the area combined. Eighteen graduates were selected for clerkships in various federal courts across the country, from right here in the 3rd Circuit to the U.S. 10th Circuit Court of Appeals and the District Court of the Southern District of Texas. Indeed, you will find our graduates in almost every legal setting: prestigious law firms, high-profile public interest organizations, corporate legal departments, federal and state judicial chambers, federal, state and local agencies, and prosecutor's and defender's offices across the nation. [Emphasis in original]

What I don’t see are hard numbers backing up the school’s claims. I don’t see a statistical breakdown of the numbers. There are no fancy pie charts or graphs. Ooh! Eighteen of your graduates from the last class cited landed federal clerkships! But, out of how many graduates?

What the school fails to mention is that you will also find many TTemple grads in almost every setting, i.e. in unemployment lines, at the food pantry, in homeless shelters, living in their sister’s basement, driving taxis, working the checkout line at the grocery store, on Food Stamps, changing your oil, collecting cans, in bankruptcy court, etc.

Ranking: According to US News & World Report, the TTemple Univer$iTTy Jame$ E. Bea$ley Sewer of Law is ranked as the 65th most prestigious law school in the  land. By some mathematical anomaly/political consideration, this toilet is tied with FIVE other schools for this honor!! Those schools being: Baylor, Georgia State, Kansas, Missouri and Penn State.


But look! If you come to this illustrious institution of higher learning, you can be a student editor of the prestigious Temple Journal of Science, Technology & Environmental Law. And what employer wouldn’t be blown away with that type of experience?!?!

http://www.temple.edu/law/tjstel/

And don’t forget the equally prominent Temple International & Comparative Law Journal!

http://www.temple.edu/law/ticlj/

In the final analysis, this second tier toilet provides one with slightly better job prospects than the typical, third tier law school. Grab a good plunger and give this school a second flush. Or grab a plumber’s snake. Remember, you would be better off by avoiding the crushing debt, keeping your job, making important job contacts, and building a reputation as a solid worker. Do not piss away your future on this “investment.”

49 comments:

  1. Grumpy Young ManMarch 3, 2010 at 7:56 AM

    Nando, you must not be from Philadelphia. If you were, you'd know that Temple's claims are pretty accurate. I live in Philly and went to a different law school. I know several people who did go to Temple. Interestingly, about half of them are assocaites at big Philly firms. The rest are DA's, City Soliciters, and lawyers at smaller area firms. I do know a couple temps from Temple as well. Most of the people I just mentioned are pretty happy with their legal careers.
    Additionally, if you look at the partnership ranks of Philly firms, you will find that Temple is pretty well represented. It may not have the national gravitas of other schools, however, If you intend to live and practice in the philly area, Temple (in state for PA) and Rutgers Camden (in state for NJ) are relatively good values.

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  2. I think, grumpy, you miss the point. You can find TTTT grads represented everywhere--it's almost like tokenism. The point Nando is trying to make is that these schools lure in hundreds of students every year and (I can attest to this myself) fill them with deceptive claims about their success. What most are left with is a diploma and a debt which they can't pay off.

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  3. @fanofSkolnick

    EVERY educational institution does that. All liberal arts undergrad programs do that. All journalism, fine arts, law, etc. programs do that. The ONLY educational programs where every grad has a reasonable chance at success are medicine/pharma and engineering/comp sci.

    The whole education myth is to blame here; law schools are no more or less evil than other schools.

    And by the way, grumpy young man is right. I'm from Philly and Temple Law is the clear #2 to Penn. And since most Penn grads don't stay in Philly, Temple is essentially the #1 local law school.

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  4. I have a question for the editor (and for anyone else who wants to chime in):

    Fortunately, I am not a lawyer. But, every year I meet up with some people who are aspiring lawyers. Some of them are very smart and talented and get into Columbia or NYU (I'm from NY). However, many of them don't get into Columbia or NYU and are left to choose between Fordham/Brooklyn/St Johns/Cardozo, etc. Inevitably they all say, "Well I didn't get into Columbia or NYU but I'll study hard in law school and graduate at the top of my class and get a good job upon graduation."

    I've got to think its not as easy as that. I'm sure that even at Fordham/Brooklyn/St Johns/Cardozo its not a cakewalk to be a top student. Do you have any thoughts on how easy or difficult it really is to be a top student at a second or third tier school and it is realistic to assume you'll be at the top of such a school?

    Thanks!!!

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  5. Grumpy Young ManMarch 3, 2010 at 9:09 AM

    Fanofskolnick,

    I am aware of the Tokenism that may exist with regard to certain law schools. However, part of my point was that Temple is represented well beyond just the mere token level in Philly firms and in city government. A Temple Law JD is a well respected credential in the Philly area (and I'm not a temple schill, I went to another Philly area school). I don't think the claims that Nando referenced are deceptive at all.
    It is perfectly alright for schools to accurately reference the success of their grads to court new students. It is up to the student to know that despite a school's reputation, nothing will be handed to her on the basis of the school's reputation alone. A good bit of personal ingenuity and drive is also required.
    That said, Temple grads have access to an extensive network of high level lawyers in Philly firms and city government.

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  6. TTemple might be okay for an in-state resident who lives with his family. You are still looking at paying $16K+ per year for tuition. If you don’t receive any money to attend this second tier law school, you are looking at $50K in debt after three years – just for tuition. A student living with family members will probably accumulate at least another $15K in debt in living expenses over three years. (Plus, you may end up with a large diploma on your wall, and no job.) Is that worth a shot at maybe landing a "prestigious" city job, making $50K a year?

    Also, consider that a FT student is not working full-time for three years. You should take those 3 years of lost – or significantly reduced – income into account. The school asserts that 94% of its Class of 2006 was employed within 9 months of graduation. Eighteen of those grads went on to land federal court clerkships. We don’t know how large the Class of 2006 was, but we can get a good idea by looking at TTemple’s 2009 class profile:

    http://www.law.temple.edu/servlet/RetrievePage?site=TempleLaw&page=Prospective_Profile_Enter_Clas&menuitem=p20

    You can see that total enrollment was 303 students, with 243 in the Day Program. Presumably, TTemple had a similar class size in 2006. So you figure that there were probably around 240 graduates for that respective class. That means that roughly 7.5% of that class landed federal court clerkships, i.e. 18/240. (I’m sure there were more who landed clerkships or internships at the Court of Common Pleas, traffic court, and juvenile court. Big deal; the same can be said of most TTTs.

    To GYM, in that same link above, you can see that TTemple claims 89 percent placement for its Class of 2008. That page then shows average starting salary of $88,760 and for those in private practice, an average starting salary of $114,435. So, if two graduating classes before, roughly 7.5% landed a federal court clerkship, how the hell can the school claim such high AVERAGE starting salaries?!?! Doesn’t that seem deceptive to you?

    The figures simply do not add up. Those who clerk for federal judges usually get Biglaw – everyone else is on their own. And $114K averages out to Biglaw money. Also, look at how the school’s alleged placement rate went from 94 percent to 89 percent in the span of two years. But yet we are supposed to believe that the average starting salary for those in private practice is $114K?!

    To Anonymous @ 8:35, undergrad programs are a joke. A BS or BA is the equivalent of a high school diploma in the early 1970s. What happens to people with Bachelor’s degrees? They work in call centers. (So do many MBAs, MAs and JDs.) This is especially the case if they had soft majors and no connections. It is common knowledge that a Bachelor’s does not guarantee you anything. What undergrad programs list purported employment and starting salary info? Please name me some, and provide a link to that info.

    Jeff, it is extremely difficult to graduate at the top of any law school class. Pretty much everyone is gunning for that position. Ninety percent of the students at a TTT – even the alcoholics and potheads - work their asses off in law school. Even those who scored high on the LSAT are not guaranteed landing in the top of their class.

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  7. I can't believe that Penn State or Temple are the most represented law schools in Philly. Are you telling me no one in Philly recruits lawyers from Princeton?

    And before we get sidetracked with bashing the concept of education, spread the blame to the employers too. The trend of downsizing over the past decades is immoral and deceiving. The American education system could work if more people respected it and let it work instead of trying to maximize their own profits with near if not downright criminal behavior.

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    Replies
    1. there is no law school at Princeton University, check out this site re student loans http://tinyurl.com/AxStudentLoans

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  8. Back at grumpy,

    That may be a much more measured way of putting your original point, but you still are not acknowledging the problem. All law schools these days are spinning their success numbers, and the main motivation for that is money, not innocent school pride. I think that makes it a big problem. These kids who come out of law school with $100K-150K debt and no job are going to rupture yet another bubble in this bizarre, collapsing free enterprise system. It's time for reform, not more of the same heaping of blame upon the new grads.

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  9. No I don't think many law firms are recruiting from Princeton. What with it not having a law school and all.

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  10. Grumpy Young ManMarch 3, 2010 at 2:50 PM

    So Fan,

    A re you saying that schools should not recruit at all or present only their negative stats? I understand you reluctance to blame the victim however, I'm not sure that anyone who borrows that amount of money without thinking clearly about how they're going to pay it back is a victim of anything other than themselves.
    The bottom line is that the law school gives you the credential necessary to take sit for the bar. In Temple's case it also has many fine programs including trial advocacy and study abroad programs. I would venture to say that most of their grads are successful lawyers.
    I don't see the school as the problem. The problem is people over-borrowing without properly thinking their decision through. Just because the money is available doesn't mean it should be borrowed.
    Someone once told me, "if you live like a lawyer when you're a student, you'll live like a student when you're a lawyer." Pretty sound advice.

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  11. True fact: no Princeton Law grads are unemployed. Also, no one graduates from Princeton Law with student loan debt.

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  12. I'll say the same thing about Temple as I did about Villanova. At one point in time, not long ago, it was probably at least a break-even investment. Times have changed, it isn't 2005 anymore.

    Five years ago, Temple had a strong pipeline into the various city agencies in Philly. Philly DA and Solicitor's were full of Temple grads. Now you've got those two agencies with serious budget problems.

    Amazingly, for the class of 2009, The National Law Journal has Temple ranked at #42 for best chance at getting into BigLaw. Villanova was #40, and I believe both got a bump from being in the Philly metro area. Sure, Memphis is cheaper, but you wind up practicing somewhere that doesn't pay as well.

    http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202443758843

    "Princeton Law School" is hilarious. I blame Uncle Phil from Fresh Prince every time someone brings up that fictional law school.

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  13. At 8:35 again,

    The MAIN reason for going to professional school is to get a job – plain and simple. Employers don’t care that you got a note published in the Family Court Review (Hofstra). No one in their right mind goes to professional school to shell out large sums of money and wind up unemployed. Maybe some rich kid - or "professional student" - who likes to collect graduate degrees does so. The typical person who goes to medical, dental, or law school does so for the express purpose of becoming a doctor, dentist or lawyer, upon completion of his studies.

    Why else would law schools charge 2-3 times more in yearly tuition than their respective universities charge undergrads? (Remember, law schools are not costly to run – other than the overpaid law “professors.”) The whole premise behind this is the following: you will learn valuable skills that you will be able to use in your job/career. We charge you large sums of money, and you – the student – believe that doing so is a good investment in your future.

    To compare law school to undergrad programs, such as Feminist Literature or Film Studies, is shameful and disgraceful. It also shows me that you are grasping at straws, and cannot come up with a cogent argument with regards to this discussion.

    Who majors in Film Studies from State U. thinking that they will be the top film critic for the NYT? What university puts out info along this line: “Fully 99 percent of our program graduates were employed within 9 months of receiving their Bachelor's degree - with an average starting salary was $65K”? Cite me some instances; that is all I am asking.

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  14. Richard Matasar: Dean of New York Law School and Chairman of Access Group student loan company AT THE SAME TIME.

    Conflict of interest? Not according to Matasar.

    Email him and ask him yourself: rmatasar@nyls.edu

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  15. All fields of education, from the humanities to law, are now too difficult to predict as far as who gets cut from the grad programs and who stays. Professors have their own peaves and unpredicatable moods. To rely on that with 100s of 1000s of dollars is too risky.

    Meanwhile, higher education is a custom and exactly what choice does a young adult have if he or she does not pursue it?

    I simply don't buy your arguments, grumpy. I've been listening to others say them for 30 years.

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  16. If law schools are not part of the solution, they are part of the problem. People who graduate from law school expect to practice law. Too bad the demand isn't there. There are also very few opportunities outside of law for a JD holder.

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  17. I do agree with what you're saying about undergrad, Nando, but I went to an undergrad with a pretty large film school, and I can assure you that each and every single member of the film school thought that they would have won 3+ Sundance/Oscar/Emmy awards by no later than age 30. Last I heard, my ex (who was among these film students) was assistant manager of a movie theater. But the Academy can't ignore her for too much longer, I'm sure...

    The problem here is unrealistic expectations which are nurtured from the age of birth until the completion of your education. While I agree law school is pretty much a huge scam, I don't think it's completely unique to law school. The only difference is law schools just have a lot more balls in straight out lying to its customers (read: "Students") than the rest of academia.

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  18. I think this post was nonsense. I am from the NJ/philly area and Temple is highly regarded, and is nearly a top 50 law school nationally. I can understand bashing it for being in an inner-city area possibly, but academically it is extremely sound. complete nonsense from someone who sounds pretty bitter about something. total nonsense.

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  19. At 9:26,

    Who could POSSIBLY argue with such pristine logic like that, i.e. typing "nonsense" three times in a short post.

    A school that is "nearly a top 50 law school nationally" is no big deal. Even this claim of yours is not accurate. US News ranked them as the 65th greatest, most amazing law school in the country. Surely, even a law school admissions officer like yourself can do the math.

    Arguing that the school is highly-regarded because it is "nearly top 50" is like arguing that you won a 5K race because you nearly came in 50th place. Big deal. Employers care about a law school's reputation. Law is obsessed with reputation and prestige. What is so special about TTemple? Its moot court, i.e. fake court, program?! Its plethora of third-rate legal journals?!

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  20. lol, umm again, I am from the NJ/philly area and ALL the philly schools are top-notch as most are too hard for me to get into. (penn-top 5, nova- top 30, rutgers and temple close to top 50) Now I dont want to live in philly for school as I did that for udnergrad, so again I can understand knocking a school for being in a questionable location, but every phill school is solid academically. You are just knocking all law schools for some reason. I am going to be attending a 4th tier school in florida, california, or NJ/PA...my job prospects will not be as terrible as you make it out to be. and they definetely would not be bad if I went to temple, which has a very good law school. did you flunk out of law school or something ? wheres the bitterness come from ??

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  21. Actually, according to US News & World Report, Vanillanova is ranked 61st, Temple is ranked 65th, and Rutgers comes in at number 77. Not exactly "close to top 50." Please get your facts straight.

    I sincerely hope - for your own sake - that you are a flame. If you are going to attend a fourth tier toilet, your job prospects WILL be minimal. Law is all about prestige. Firms and government agencies want someone who went to a top school, or the top 5-10 students at lower-ranked schools.

    I suppose if you believe hard enough, you can also be an astronaut and make it to the NBA. Good luck in your law school adventure, lemming. You will DEFINITELY need it. Also, I graduated from law school in 2009. Did you even bother to read the column on the right-hand side of this page?

    Law school is a terrible, foolish investment. The market for U.S. lawyers is shrinking, despite what you might wish. But don't listen to me or the other bloggers; go ahead and take out as many loans as you can. Maybe you can take comfort in knowing that you are helping your law school's dean purchase another luxury car. (Or maybe he will use those federal dollars to buy his mistress a nice diamond necklace.)

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  22. um, no offense but I imagine YOU went into the wrong profession or did not do well in law school. That does not mean that EVERY person that goes will have a hard time. Or that EVERY 2nd and 3rd tier school is bad. I mean I am concerned about the prospects myself but your just trashing the entire legal profession based on your own bad experience apparently. Most of the schools you are trashing on here are great law schools. The recession is affecting virtually EVERY sector right now. MBA's are struggling too, it doesnt mean every one of those schools is a terrible investment forever, for thier entire lives, just because the job market is bad right now.

    Apparently lawyer salaries go up significantly after just 3-5 years, and double after 10-20 years. Apparently you just graduated and havent found your first job yet. Also you are stuck in a saturated NYC market which adds to your problem, which again is your own fault. Not the legal industry's.

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  23. Hi Nando: I think part of the issue is you might not be from Pennsylvania / Philadelphia. Although there are a lot of lawyers and law schools in the city Philadelphia, Pennsylvania is a big state. While Villanova and Temple produce a lot of Philly BIGLAW grads, in the surrounding counties, there are several mid-sized firms that pay about $75 - $100k y/r, most of whom employ grads from Villanova, Rutgers, Temple, etc.

    Though finding legal work in Philadelphia BIGLAW is competitive, it's not too bad the further north and/or west of Philadelphia you go. It's not like Washington D.C., for instance, where you have too many (good) law schools and but a tiny state.

    Even though schools like Villanova / Temple / Rutgers are TT and ranked lower than most of the DC schools, employment is more about a graduate's ties to the local area than the rankings. In my experience, most firms will hire a Temple / Villanova / Rutgers grad who grew up or lives in the area rather than bring someone in from DC from a higher ranked school. Why? Because the local grad is less likely to leave as soon as they find work closer to home, more likely to generate work, more likely to be happy, etc.

    Full disclosure: I am a 2008 Temple grad, finished middle of the class, working in a mid-sized Philadelphia county firm. I grew up in a Philly suburb. I know for a fact I beat out grads from higher ranked schools schools or with better grades because I'm locally based. In fact, after talking to the partners, their main hesitation in hiring me was that I lived in Philadelphia at the time (having gone to Temple), but they overlooked it because I grew up in the county.

    Along those lines, that is the best advice I have for anyone considering law school: go to law school where you want to practice, not the best school you get into, unless it's a top 15. Don't go to law school in a saturated market like D.C., (unless it's Georgetown) because the market is too saturated. Even though a school like American is ranked higher than Temple, local Pennsylvania firms are more likely to hire a local Pennsylvania candidate.

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  24. What's with the picture. Are you a socialist who thinks the government should provide you a job?

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  25. In state tuition for Temple is low, and Temple does well in the Philadelphia Area.

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  26. I also want to point out that a lot of students attending Temple are on scholarship. The Beasley Scholarship offers full-tuition. I am personally on a scholarship that offers me a renewable $15K per year. As an out-of-state resident, that means that I pay about $14K per year. That is a pretty sweet deal, considering I made above $20K the summer after my 1L year at a Big Law firm. I will be making half of that this summer in a government position, but I am looking forward to a different environment and having more free time to spend with my family. The key is to go to a school that will offer you a decent amount of financial aid in grants and scholarships and will provide you with good job prospects in the field of law that you wish to pursue. Another word of advice is to never go to law school just for the money. If that is your purpose for becoming a lawyer, you will surely be disappointed. No amount of money earned in BigLaw can make up for the part of your life and soul that is lost from doing doc reviews, churning out memo after memo on civil procedural issues, or figuring out how to defend an insurance company from having to pay a policyholder who is crippled from an injury and cannot otherwise afford to pay for his health care. If I can't find a job in the area of law that I wish to practice after graduation, I would be perfectly happy pursuing a career in another profession b/c I'm not in it for the money.

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  27. I wonder how much the author of this post made when he got a job out of the TTT law school he attended?

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  28. I skimmed through the posts, not sure if that was corrected or not, but as far as I know, Princeton University DOES NOT offer law education.

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  29. Nando, I graduated from Temple Law last May and I am gainfully employed at one of the city's top law firms. Granted, I was top 10% of my class so I had more options than others that did not achieve as highly but Temple is VERY well represented in Philly. Philly, by the way, is a huge job market for law (Think law firms, big 4 accounting/consulting firms, SEC, Fed. Reserve, IRS, FBI, Local Gov't, and tons of in house counsel)

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  30. I too graduated from Temple Law this past May.

    Unlike the asshole poster above, I'm part of the other 90% of my class who feels lucky in even having contract/temp work.

    What rubs salt in my wounds is the fact that Temple's mailing and calling me for donations. Donations which will:

    Fucking pay my professors, who have taught me shit about real practice.

    Fucking pay career services, who gave me no fucking help in finding jobs and continue to spew shit about how well grads are doing.

    Fucking pay Carolyn Lamm, the bitch who spoke at my $65 graduation ceremony about being a good lawyer but not about how the other 90% of the class was going to make money and pay off loans, and who does nothing about the glut in law school oversupply.

    Fuck Temple and every other law school who continue to post rosy employment statistics. Fuck Temple and every other law school who, every year, pile more grads into the already saturated market. Fuck reputation when it doesn't do shit in making me compete with other Temple grads for a few shit jobs.

    I'm living and home and doing doc review now. I don't consider doc review a job. So I, for one, tell Temple whenever they call for donations that I don't have a fucking job and that they should go fuck themselves.

    And last of all, fuck me. Fuck me for being such an idiot. For not pulling out 1L year when I realized nobody besides professors and dumbshit students gives a shit about Pennoyer v. Neff. Fuck me for not pulling out 2L year when I realized I don't know even know how to file a complaint or draft a will. Fuck me for not killing myself 3L year when I realized I'm in way over my head and I had no chance of being in the top 10% and having a BigLaw job to pay off my loans. At least it's still not too late today.

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  31. Yes, anonymous, fuck you indeed. And fuck the original poster here. If you are going to go to law school (or any professional school) you need to consider its cost and what you want to do after school and whether that degree will get you there. If you don't make any of these considerations (and many/most law students seemingly don't), you are a moron, and have no one but yourself to blame. Temple has a great reputation in Philly/NJ/Delaware particularly, but throughout many parts of the country as well. I was barely in the top third, no law review, and got the job I wanted (a job I liked) and just moved into a new, better (better-paying) after three years there. This is because I knew what I wanted and made it happened, instead of crying like a bitch because I didn't realize I was a dumbass.

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  32. To the piece of trash who posted at 9:38 am,

    I received a full tuition scholarship to attend law school. I had about $10K in savings prior to attending Drake. My wife and I lived frugally. I figured that I would take out about $25K-$35K in student loans, for living expenses. I was not off the mark by much, tool. Furthermore, I informed my wife and family beforehand that I would not go to law school UNLESS I received a full-tuition scholarship.

    My wife - with a Master's degree and work experience - was unable to land a job making more than $31K annually. I worked during the summers, but did not earn much.

    By the way, plenty of others have gone off on your second tier toilet. Check out this classic fore-runner to the scam-blogs:

    http://stateofbeasley.blogspot.com/

    I actually know a few TTemple-educated lawyers. They practice toiletlaw, i.e. immigration, traffic tickets/DUIs, and juvenile law. The funny thing is these people are drowning in student loans, and making peanuts - at least in relation to their outstanding debt.

    One guy has been practicing law for 4 years now. He is ALWAYS home by 5:15 pm. He works for a notorious, local sleazebag attorney.

    I agree that those who do not look at law school PRIMARILY as a financial decision are idiots. However, I did my research, bitch. Just because you want something bad enough does not mean that you will attain it. For instance, you would probably would kill to have a 6" penis. But you are stuck with a 4 inch Vienna sausage, instead.

    I decline your original offer. I like women, idiot. However, if you want, you can send your sister, wife or girlfriend over - and she can blow me.

    “This is because I knew what I wanted and made it happened.”

    Learn how to spell, moron.

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  33. I'm a proud Temple Grad who won a prestigious award here in VA as one of the top leading professionals under 40- what horsecrap- you need not be in one of the top 8 schools- a lot of it depends on what you want to do.
    Me, I'm a plaintiff's attorney- I don't work for someone's marble coffee table- if you want to work for a big firm and have 2,500 billable hours to fulfill- go to the top 8- me, I'm happy with my choice.

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  34. Nando,
    I have mixed feelings about your website. On the one hand, I applaud you for helping to raise awareness about the costs of attending law school. I agree that it is a major financial investment that carries significant risks, and due to this consideration it is a prospect that must be carefully evaluated.

    On the other hand, I believe that you are overly-pessimistic. You raise anecdotal points (and by definition these points are relatively meaningless) and seem to be obsessed with the U.S. News rankings. Sure, these rankings are important, but graduating from a second or third tier (or even fourth tier) school does not mean you are destined for a life of frustration and destitution. Yes, the job market for lawyers is weak at the moment, but the same is true for virtually every other profession. It will rebound- I'm sure you are well aware that the market moves in a perpetual cycle of peaks, recessions, troughs, and expansions.

    You also seem considerably bitter. Your experience with law school and your subsequent employment prospects must not have been what you had expected. In a departure from the otherwise professional style of this post, I will say this: life is a bitch. There are winners and there are losers. Sorry you lost.

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  35. Matt,

    A lot of people are losing, fool.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?_r=1&pagewanted=6

    "This gets to what might be the ultimate ugly truth about law school: plenty of those who borrow, study and glad-hand their way into the gated community of Big Law are miserable soon after they move in. The billable-hour business model pins them to their desks and devours their free time.

    Hence the cliché: law school is a pie-eating contest where the first prize is more pie.

    Law school defenders note that huge swaths of the country lack adequate and affordable access to lawyers, which suggests that the issue here isn’t oversupply so much as maldistribution. But when the numbers are crunched, studies find that most law students need to earn around $65,000 a year to get the upper hand on their debt."

    Even those who win the Biglaw lottery are not guaranteed lengthy legal careers. Many burn out, after less than 5 years in the field. Many others are tossed out, as if they were day old garbage, if they cannot bring in lots of business for the firm.

    Do YOU think that these former corporate, transactional attorneys will be in high demand from PI firms or positions at DoJ?! It seems that those employers will seek highly-skilled, aggressive litigators - not Biglaw washouts. Short of EXCELLENT connections, even an Ivy League background will not save these guys.

    Do you believe that it is healthy for a person to work 80-90 hour weeks? Are you not aware that many lawyers are unhappy people? Perhaps, you need to check out this info:

    http://lifeatthebar.wordpress.com/2006/03/14/surveys-of-lawyers-satisfaction-levels/

    “Mr. Cohen presented some startling statistics about attorney substance abuse, depression, and suicide rates. I haven’t been able to track down links to the surveys he cited yet, but here are the figures he presented:

    • 15-18% of attorneys will have substance abuse problem vs. 10% of general population.
    • Over 1/3 of attorneys say they are dissatisfied and would choose another profession if they could.
    • Attorneys have the highest rates of depression and suicide of any profession.”

    I’m sorry that you have “mixed feelings” about the website. (Are your estrogen levels up again, bitch?) However, this blog is designed to inform prospective law students about the realities of law school – and the shrinking legal job market. Also, this blog relies HEAVILY on concrete facts, charts, graphs, and industry statements. Furthermore, I am aware that the economy goes in cycles, ass-hat. However, it will be difficult to restore outsourced legal jobs, won’t it?!?! Plus, employers will continue to rely on money saving technology and software. You are welcome for the education/beatdown.

    ReplyDelete
  36. "There are winners and there are losers. Sorry you lost.

    May 17, 2011 4:08 PM "

    Matt, any problem with the way the cost of these toilet bowl, non-elite law schools has so radically outstripped the rate of inflation and the overall price level of everything else?

    At what pricing point is a non-elite law school, in your view, not worth the risk?

    ReplyDelete
  37. Temple University has the Best Trial Advocacy program in the country and they normally tallywack Penn in mock trials.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Wel..Im from Africa.. East.. & Would love to attend Graduate Tax LLM..? Wht are ur advice?

    ReplyDelete
  39. Beasley = Just another shit ass law school.

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  40. 16k per year times three years equals 47k. My undergrad debt is 30k that comes to 70k. My sister has 70k of debt just from her undergrad and is an elementary school teacher. If you live at home as I do and basically mooch of your parents for those 3 years I don't really see 70k of debt being that bad. Especially if you are able to mooch for an additional 2 or 3 years to pay a lot of it back quickly. What else are people going to do? If you suck at math and or have no interest in health care, enginineering, computer science.... What are your options? If you can pay the bills and put food on the table and enjoy your occupation then is it really that bad? I mean what are you going to do? Change oil for a living? Be a legal assistant forever and be someone's bi*tch and make 15 bucks an hour forever?

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    Replies
    1. You make this too easy, moron. To wit:

      "If you suck at math and or have no interest in health care, enginineering, computer science.... What are your options?"

      You also stated that $16K law school tuition per year equals $47K. Actually, $16,000 * 3= $48,000.

      By the way, how many ABA-accredited trash heaps/diploma mills offer flat tuition rates for all three years?! Plus, you are not considering opportunity costs. You are also not including accruing interest, while you are enrolled.

      Delete
  41. Temple Law School is the biggest piece of fucking shit ever.

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  42. Temple is a shithole. Sure, you'll have a few grads making good money. But that's the exception.

    And if you're one of those idiots that is doing something you love, answer me this: is it worth owing $150K in student loans on a $40K salary? Fuckwit.

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  43. I just kinda feel like according to you there's no point in being a lawyer because your going to be in debt and unhappy. I've wanted to be a lawyer since I was 7. I have no interest in anything else besides law and politics. I'm an average student, with random flashes of brilliance and 2nd-tier is probably in my future. I'm okay with that. I want to practice immigration law and help people. I'm fine with being a middle class, and throwing $100 minimum payment at my loans until I'm 80. I want to do what I've always wanted to do.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You do realize that immigration law is 95%+ filling out forms, making up sob stories, and writing form letters, right? You do realize that every other foreign LLM asshole will be practicing immigration law in an over-saturated market because it's such a brain-dead area of practice, right?

      Delete
  44. I graduated from Temple back in the early 2000s. Relative to other toilets, I guess temple is OK, but you would be a fool to attend this school (or any tier 2 school) these days.

    The school boasts about its trial advocacy program, its foreign study offerings AND its wide selection of clinics. I participated in all three, and frankly found NONE of them to be anything special (except that I got to spend a summer in a foreign country). Sure, they were a nice change from the normal lecture class, but it's not as if they give you any special skills that actually last.

    Temple has a law review and a trial team, but VERY FEW students are actually on them. Most Temple students go home after classes and simply watch TV or study.

    The career services department might as well not exist. They give you awful advice, and do not have ANY connections to push average students into jobs. They are, however, very nice.

    The curve is brutal at a 2.85 (although I now hear it's up to a 3.0). Back in my day, at least 40% of each class would get some sort of C (but luckily Ds and Fs were rare). Graduating with up to half your grades in the C range was very common. Still, having half your grades in the C range isn't as big a disadvantage as you'd think it is--you're either in the top 10-15% and get a job via OCI, or you are not.

    The only advantage to Temple is its relative low cost. Given that its employment outcomes are about the same as some tier 1s, you may be better off attending this toilet rather than something like a Fordham (which is double the cost).

    Temple's slogan for the past 20 years or so has been "Real World Law." Sorry, but there is nothing real world about Temple. It's just as dull and pointless as any other law school; they do nothing differently.

    Overall, Temple is a friendly place, but not particularly social or supportive of its students. The "Temple" name will NOT open any doors for you, but the school is sufficiently respected in the legal community to not have an interviewer laugh out laud as they review your resume.

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  45. What do they say: Any publicity is good publicity.

    ReplyDelete

 
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