Saturday, March 6, 2010

Open a Window: Chicago-Kent College of Law

Tuition and Fees: for the 2009-2010 academic year, full-time tuition for the JD program at the Chicago-Kent Commode of Law is $37,800! (Did you catch your breath yet?) Now to the fees – all students must pay $1,026 in fees EACH SEMESTER! That comes out to an extra $2,052 per year. So, to attend the full-time Day Program (sounds like a prison workshop, doesn’t it?), one actually will spend $39,852 for the current school year.

I suppose the Illinois Institute of Technology needs the extra income, right?!

According to BusinessWeek, the school has endowment assets of a mere $204.1 million.

Employment Opportunities: At least, the school was somewhat honest. They note that only 58 percent of survey respondents reported their salary information. That would probably mean that those making lower incomes were less likely to report their info, correct? Nobody likes to admit to failure, after all.

Look at the salary range for all reported salaries for the Class of 2008, i.e. $35,000-$165,000. Guess what? Most of this school’s graduates are making closer to $35K than they are to $165K. What about those in private practice? The range – as reported – reflects the info above. Those in the private business sector make between $40K-$110K. Those working in government earn $45,000-$106,000. And lastly, those in public interest make between $36,000 and $55,000.

Ranking: According to US News & World Report, Chicago-Kent COL is the 77th most amazing, celebrated and iconic law school in the United States. And look – it is somehow tied with 7 other schools for this honor!! Why not just list the remaining “first tier” group in a 24-way tie for 77th best school?!?

This school does not provide its students with a realistic chance to land a job that pays well enough to make the investment worth it. One could easily land $140K in debt just from tuition, fees, and very light living expenses.

If you attend this school, you will be competing directly against law students and attorneys from University of Chicago, Northwestern, and University of Illinois. Don’t forget strong regional law schools, such as Notre Dame and Minnesota. You will be competing against these students, as well.

The job market for lawyers is highly over-saturated, and the demand for attorneys is shrinking. Biglaw continues to outsource much of its document review work to foreign lawyers AND non-lawyers. (Thank you, to the cockroaches on the ABA “Ethics” Committee.) People are starting to do more pro-se litigation, as they have better access to legal forms, statutes, case law, and software programs.

UNLESS you have some SERIOUS family, political or business connections AND are getting decent scholarship or grant money to attend this school, DO NOT attend this program. You may end up making $35K upon graduation – as the school’s own numbers point out.

You may not like this advice, as it shatters your dreams of attending law school and being a practicing lawyer. However, it is MUCH better to know the realities of the market before investing three years of time and energy, forgoing three years of full income, and spending $140K+ of borrowed money. You need to look at law school SOLELY as an investment – this is your life.

If you go, you will likely wind up with a job that does not pay much more than what you currently make. Is that worth $140K, and three years of little to no income? Remember, YOU will be the one making monthly payments to the student loan cartel for the next 30 years – not the hot girl at work you are trying to impress. Taking all of the above into account, ask yourself the following: is it worth paying $39,852 per year in tuition and fees for a degree you may never get to use?


  1. I have been reading online complaints about this toilet from jobless grads for years now

  2. Chicago-Kent, home (possily emeritus) school of BarBri Chairman Richard Conviser. This place is what Law $$$$$$$chool is all about. My beloved "2nd tier wannabe Harvard" shithole. Nando, in a word answer to your last question, NO. I went to this very, very rich vampire center and I am ashamed of the cash I owe. Why, God, do I have to pay 800 a mo. for this super expensive ripoff monthly for 30 years? Kent has a semi-decent reputation in the Chi-town metro area, but as in NY, there is ZERO fucking benefit when the market is super saturated here and lawyers in Chicago are literally begging for bullshit temp work and unpaid internships. Shit, I think you whiney wusses in NY are doing just fine compared to here with all of your fruitful basement shittemp projects. Furthermore, some of the Kent professors are among the top of the arrogant type-A dicks you find in the country, without parallel.

    Insulting tuition for a legal education. However, my Kent diploma is lemon slice water-spill resistant, as I have proven by accidental experiment.

  3. I graduated from IIT, Chicago-Kent in 2002. At the time, the tuition was in the low 20s and I graduated with nearly 70K in debt. I've worked merely 4 of the last 8 years, all on temporary projects, and I have yet to find permanent employment.

    (Nevermind my numerous attempts at Bar passage.)

    Anonymous's observation that "some of the Kent professors are among the top of the arrogant type-A dicks you find in the country, without parallel" is true, although I did have some very kind and helpful professors as well.

  4. I think Nando finally got one right. When I was applying to law school in 2001, this place was held out as a strong school in a huge city. But when I started asking around, it was obvious that between Northwestern, U of I, Chicago, and all the Ivy League trust fund babies returning home, the best one could hope for from this toilet was a job with the City.

    Now, the City has legions of laid off trust fund babies literally working there for free.
    I can't even imagine what Kent graduates aspire to in 2010.

  5. Kent is a piece of garbage. I don't think the picture is very accurate for this post. After going here, you need to wipe your ass with sandpaper. Not t.p.

  6. Nando, Why didn't you pay a visit to Chicago's other and more infamous cash sucking TTTT toilet located over the river and down the street from Kent?

  7. Depaul? or Loyola?

  8. I plan on getting to some of the other Chicago-area toilets in the next few posts. I am highlighting these schools, in response to reader demand. DePaul is an expensive school, as well. I still need to do some more research on the other schools you mention.

    It is disgusting that these schools portray themselves as providing their students and graduates with a real chance for upward mobility. The reality is that these schools CANNOT compete with the law schools at U. of Chicago, Northwestern, or even U. of Illinois.

  9. Nando,

    Is it possible that IIT/Chi-Kent (among others) is seeking to discourge enrollment by raising tuition and fees? Would this not atleast be a good result? We know that people's behavior will change in response to costs, whether rising or falling.

  10. damn 4 TTTs in one city lol

  11. At 2:51,

    Chicago-Kent is NOT trying to discourage enrollment with such prohibitive tuition and fees. Looking at the link above, we can see that there are currently 958 students enrolled at this second tier commode. Of those, 786 are full-time students. That means this school has larger class sizes than most.

    With the structure of student loans - and self-reported figures that are not audited by an outside firm - there is no incentive for law schools to voluntarily limit their class sizes.

    Furthermore, when I was applying to law schools in 2005, Chicago-Kent sent me a couple of solicitations in the mail - and I lived in Salt Lake City at the time. They even offered to waive the application fee. I threw those letters in the trash. This shows that the school aggressively recruits applicants from all over the country.

  12. You need to profile Settton Hall Law School. From an angle, that place is shaped like a toilet (looking at it from the Mulberry Street angle towards Raymond Blvd.). I think it is criminal what that school does. In the past, women enrolled in that school to find a husband who would support them. Now, even female students can't rely on finding an employable lawyer-husband. I recall their brochure boasted that a recent graduate was making $500K. I wonder if it was that Hoboken policitican who was caught taking kickbacks and pay to play money. Although it is generously ranked in the second tier, I suspect Settton Hall will return to the third tier where they have traditionally belonged.

  13. I don't always agree with Nando's TTT classifications, but he hit it out of the park with this one. As a practicing attorney in Chicago, I can assure you Kent is the essence of a TTT (i.e., outrageously expensive + limited job prospects + fudged employment stats). There are 3 T25 schools in Illinois, not to mention other strong regional schools that place well in Chicago, and many of those schools are less expensive then Kent. You have to be in the top 10% and on law review to stand a chance of getting a big law job. As for mid law/government in Chicago, you're chances are likely to be even more dire. Mid law firms are far more likely to hire someone who graduated in the middle of the pack from Northwestern or Illinois then Kent (U of. Chicago grads typically place well in Chicago no matter where they graduate in their respective class, unless they are total outcasts).

    So here is simple advice for all of you 0Ls. If you're goal is to be an attorney in Chicago, go Ivy, T-14, Illinois, or Notre Dame (and to a lesser extent, Minnesota, Iowa, or Indiana). If you don't go to one of these schools, your chances of practicing in Chicago are slim to none.

    Well done Nando.

  14. I graduated from Kent in 2008 with 25k of debt. Would not have attended this school without the big chunk of scholarship money they offered me. I was fortunate to get an IP job in DC that pays well, but got no worthwhile offers in Chicago. Ranked around top third of class.

    In my opinion, if you don't have an engineering degree that qualifies you for patent law, don't risk going here.

  15. I went to Kent, and graduated in 2005. I am doing "ok." Not as great as I would like to be, but ok. I'm pretty fortunate, the way things turned out for me. The friends I made there are all practicing law in Chicago...and not just document review or crappy PI work, either. The people in my class on law review all got big law jobs. 2005 wasn't a bad year for hiring.

    That being said, there is still a HUGE disparity between what the school charges, and what students can reasonably expect to make, and I'm not pleased to see that tuition is approaching the $40k mark. Not one bit. Herein lies the problem. Not every school can be Harvard or Yale, but those who aren't, shouldn't be charging as though they are, due to inequities in potential earning power.

    The problem with the law schools is they get their money right away from the student loan companies. Therefore they don't give a shit what happens to you afterwards...they get paid right up front. How nice for them.

    And moving on from where I am, and trying to improve what I'm earning and where I'm going has been really difficult, but I don't solely blame the law school for that. There's a lot of different factors.

  16. What is particularly troubling is the ever-increasing tuition, coupled with the shrinking legal market. Law students are going further into debt, and facing slimmer job prospects.

    Yet schools like this one encourage more people to apply via aggressive recruiting, and skewed employment and salary statistics. There is no reason for such a low-ranked school to charge tuition on par with Ivy League schools - other than greed.

    If the ABA cared about law students - in the slightest - they would REQUIRE law schools to submit their figures to an independent, outside audit by reputable firms. (Just look at what the bar associations require of you to sit for their bar exams.) But, we all know that the ABA does not give a damn about the average law student.

  17. One key point I think is overlooked is that the law schools will keep on jacking up tuition as long as there are students willing to pay. What incentive do they have to not jack up tuition every year? The number of applicants seems to be increasing. When students begin comparison shopping for law schools like they do for cars or apartments is when you might begin to see tuition level off. Because let's face it, the student loan industry isn't going away or changing anytime soon.

  18. you cant comparison shop when they all cost $40K.

    Especially when the older folks with no debt hold the keys to the profession (your first job, getting experience, etc)

    Until they say "go to a correspondance law school for $5k a year, well hire you anyways" students cant do a thing

    Nando keep it up. Time for change

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  20. As a student at Kent, I can tell you this article hits the nail on the head. Although it pains me to say it, Kent is overrated. Career Services does little to provide students support, and the Professors (with a few exceptions, i.e., Steve Harris and the Adjuncts) could care less what students will face upon graduation. Luckily, I have locked up a job not in IP. Most people though are just in denial until after the BAR exam. This school is overrated, the Chicago market is hurting, and the tuition is just insane... worked my entire 3 years at Kent, taking out loans just for tuition, and will be over $100k in debt. Furthermore, Kent keeps hiring professors and putting on "fancy" events, which is paid for by jacking up tuition. The students at Kent are not much better either. Most of them ooze entitlement and privilege.

    Someone above spoke highly of the I.P. program here, which I will agree with. Outside of one person on law review who killed it, the only people I know with jobs are trial team people working at the States Attorney's Office and the I.P. peeps.

  21. Kent is a stinking toilet. I graduated at the end of '08 and still haven't found a job.
    I am a former engineer with a decade of experience. IP is getting hit hard too, so the old saw about IP people having better opportunities is just not true anymore.

    Notice how they're clinging on to their 2008 employment statistics?

    And then they have the nerve to solicit for contributions. This place needs to be shut down. About the only comfort I take is that there is a slightly worse toilet down the street (JMLS).

    It's small comfort indeed to be a Toileteer Grade I instead of a Toileteer Grade II.

  22. I must say, this article merely confirms my worst fears about the school. I'm a 2L student, just a hair outside of the top 10% (bad first semester killed me), and I'm scared shitless about the job prospects that i'm facing. The OCI was a joke tis year (think about 4 real firms actually came on campus), and there's no help to be had from career services. I foolishly made no attempt to transfer last summer, thinking that I wouldn't be able to get into Northwestern or Univ. of Chicago. However, I'm actually contemplating a transfer to one of those schools, knowing full well that I'll need to pay for an ADDITIONAL year of lawschool. Despite the extra 60K or so that it will cost, the likely difference of 80K in income upon graduation may still make it more cost effective

  23. I took a crap in that toilet. I didn't used a rock.

  24. Hmm... So the school my father went to is garbage? How sad. I thought all that mattered was the piece of paper at the end and the passing of the bar. Does it matter where you go to do these things?

  25. Oh look, another corner of the internet full of pissy current and ex-law students who are so smart that they went to law school but so fucking dense they can't wrap their minds around the concept of "recessionary times." Sorry your big money dreams aren't really panning out for you, but if you didn't realize that paying full tuition for a school like Kent was a risk, then you're a dumbfuck and you should be happy they even accepted you. The fact that you went for three years and racked up such a ridiculous debt before realizing your prospects says more about you than it does about the school's ability to teach you the law... Which is what they do, teach you law, not guarantee you a six figure salary upon graduation. In short, STFU.

  26. Kent is actually a very good law school. It also ranks high in the Leiter poll. But, I also think its good that people are calling out such schools on their ridiculous tuitions.

  27. At the end of the day, firms look for people with prior work experience in the area of law those people want to practice. Really, how much sense does it make to hire a history major with a law degree for a corporate law job. The only reason the top law school grads get more high paying jobs is that those firms like the status candy of their grads knowing full well they will never make partner. Those that tend to make partner these days are people who generally have work experience prior to practicing law in addition to school name or great grades.

    So, unless you have some descent work experience in the area of law you want to practice or know you can be top 20%, don’t go to law school until you have that experience. Otherwise, the market rate for a law grad with no experience and no real education is not very much.

  28. If you are disappointed in your job prospects perhaps you should spend your time improving your resume instead of further devaluing the brand of the law school. Additionally, Chicago-Kent remains in the Second Tier, your post is misleading - perhaps similar misstatements prevented you from greater success at the law school level.

  29. @ 9:27, at the time of this posting, I provided the link to US News, which showed that Chicago-Kent Commode of Law was ranked 77th best law school in the United States. I noted that this school was a second tier commode. Maybe you didn't catch that. If that is the case, it is YOU who needs to hone your research skills. After all, you cannot even follow a basic sentence.

    My description of this school as a second tier sewer is accurate, not misleading, i.e. it is not a misstatement. Do you understand that?

    See where Chicago-Kent Commode of Law is now ranked 80th best law school in the U.S. - by USN&WR?! So, yes the school remains a second tier commode. What a wonderful achievement, right?!

  30. Its yack!! They have no right to get such high fee.

  31. lol, this whole website just made me laugh. You all just sound like a bunch of pissy, whiny kids. Unless you're at Harvard, Yale or Stanford finding a job takes work. It's never ENTIRELY just the school itself. There are Columbia grads (a few I know personally) who struck out at OCI and struggling to find law jobs (I personally think they need to try something else other than mass e-mailing) but seriously, school doesn't GUARANTEE a job, just the skills necessary to find one. Honestly, I'll take 35k/40k a year. I only make 14k right now at my shitty retail job.

  32. Nando,

    Do you delete posts that are unfavorable to your agenda? I find it impossible that no one from Chicago-Kent, or Loyola or Depaul for that matter, has disputed the trash that is this site.

    The loudest people on these sites happen to be the least successful - those with positive outcomes don't have time to sulk with you.

    Be honest. Take all posts, including those that are success stories from these schools.

  33. @9:57,

    I don’t delete positive comments from supposed graduates of these festering toilets of law. Look at the comment at May 7, 2010, 6:58 AM, which “informs” us that “Kent is actually a very good law school.” He points to the vaunted Leiter law school rankings to support his assertion. (You know, because legal employers and potential law students care about that sort of thing.) March 22, 2010, 2:22 PM tells us that he and several of his classmates from 2005 are doing well in the field.

    I even allow misinformed/delusional views on this blog. For instance, look at the misguided soul who posted on May 5 2010, 8:57 PM. This moron thought I was a Chicago-Kent Commode of Law grad who paid full tuition for a JD from this second tier sewer. Apparently, he cannot read very well – or he would realize that I attended Third Tier Drake and wound up with $37K in additional student debt.

    The ONLY trash on this site comes from IDIOTS LIKE YOU who have no idea what the hell they are talking about. Your stupid comments only serve to bring the conversation down. You never refute the substantive arguments of this blog, with the facts. Instead, you try to muddy the issue. Well, in the final analysis, Chicago-Kent College of Law is a festering, sweltering, pathetic piece of filth. Just look at the comments from those living in the Chicago area – including JDs from this school.

    Also, have you not seen the large number of comments from supposedly successful attorneys on this site? Many of them mention that tuition was much cheaper than it is now, and that they would NOT attend a TTT – or almost any law school - in today’s shrinking lawyer job market. Have you not bothered to read Brian Tamanaha’s blog post, where he – a law professor – agrees with the scam-bloggers?

    Now, ask the law schools and the ABA to be honest, shill. I apologize if your feelings have been hurt, because so few report being happy with their TTT law degrees and garbage job prospects. Go see a therapist for that.

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  35. I graduated from Kent in '00 Kent around the top-third. I agree that the degree was expensive and have questioned the wisdom of that investment. But I have also been employed as an attorney steadily for 10 years and have built a career in my area of practice. My first job was around $45k and it has climbed over the years to a salary of around $100k which is enough to cover my loans and standard of living. Looking back I wish I had more seriously considered U of I, which would have made more financial sense, but I wanted to be in Chicago and I couldn't get into the other schools there. So I agree with you that law school doesn't make sense for everyone and that should be considered seriously upfront, but that doesn't mean there is no value in the degree and you can't make it work.

  36. The complaint about schools not adequately disclosing employment and salary data is completely valid. They should do it because it's the right thing to do, and if that's not enough (and it isn't obviously), then the ABA or some other body should force them to.

    All that being said, people who choose to go to law school have to accept responsibility for their own choices, good and bad. If the information provided wasn't adequate, you should have been smart enough to know it at the time. Do you look at vague figures like the $35K - $160K salary range and just assume you'll end up near the upper end or in the middle? That's not reasonable. People have been graduating from lower and middle tier law schools for many decades now, and it's never been much of a secret that the prospects of getting a good, high paying job are much lower if you're not at a top school. The reality that a lot of people who graduate from those schools never make much money can't be a surprise to anyone. And it's certainly no secret that if you spend $40K per year on school, you're likely to be buried in debt when you get out.

    Nobody in this world is ever going to do more to look out for your best interests than you. That's your #1 job. So don't fuck it up. If a school charges you a fortune for a degree that isn't very marketable, both the school and the student are guilty of something, but the student really needs to blame himself more so than anyone else. If you expect the world to protect you from yourself, you're going to be seriously screwed.

    Anyway, if the posts here make prospective law school applicants stop and think twice about what they're about to do, then this blog is providing a very valuable public service.

  37. @8:39,

    I did research this decision, to the best of my ability, before attending law school. I actually talked to several attorneys about this choice. They were all supportive. Looking back, I realize that I made the mistake of discussing this with old fart lawyers. In other posts, I have pointed out that I informed my wife, friends, family and co-workers that I would not go to law school UNLESS I received a full-tuition scholarship. (I did not want to end up with a ton of debt.) Third Tier Drake extended such an offer to me.

    My wife never made more than $31K per year, and I worked during the summers. We lived frugally. We had an affordable apartment, and both drove older cars. We hardly ever went out, either. I had also managed to save about $10K prior to law school. With these safeguards in place, I ended up with an additional $37K in student debt - for living expenses.

    Every person considering law school MUST look at this as a financial decision. This represents a significant investment in time, energy and borrowed money. The reality is that it is most people will need to incur some student debt, in order to earn a JD. However, one should NEVER take out loans from private lenders - under ANY circumstances.

    This blog - as well as the other “scam-blogs” - is performing a public service. The reality is that my student debt is not staggering compared to others. I was able to land a job within two months of graduating from Third Tier Drake. I do not write this blog for myself. My goal is to get information out to prospective law students.

    We have brought pressure to the ABA. Then Law School Transparency jumped onboard, requesting that law schools provide accurate data. US News is now looking to make some changes in how schools will report “employment“ data.

    I recognize that this is not enough. People are still being buried in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt. Lives are being ruined. I am not content with some token actions, pointless rhetoric, and platitudes on the part of the ABA and “law professors.”

    However, some “law professors,” many legal practitioners and others are now speaking out about this industry. Do you think that just happened? These blogs helped play an important role in that process.

    Lastly, I do accept responsibility for my actions. I make my student loan payments on time every month. I pay extra, when I can. For $ome rea$on, the schools are not called on to pay for their deceptive, dishonest and fraudulent actions. That is peculiar, isn't it?!

  38. I am a recent graduate of Chicago-Kent and had a good experience there. I did not graduate even remotely close to the top of my class. But, the career services office worked with me after my first year to establish connections with local Chicago-Kent graduates in the field in which I wanted to work (financial services). I reached out to those attorneys and attempted to network. It worked out well for me and I landed a great job that allows me to pay back my loans and live comfortably. I know of numerous other Chicago-Kent students who had similar fortunes--and we all graduated into a horrible legal market in Chicago.

    While I agree that Kent's tuition is too high, I also think that a lot of other schools' tuition rates are not reasonably related to the realities of the current legal market. It is tough to justify a legal education if you are hoping for a 6-figure job in the pocket upon graduation. Even if you want to hustle a bit, tuition rates are still too high. I would like to see schools like Chicago-Kent decrease their class sizes, lower tuition and cut back on some of the operational fat. I think they could do so and enjoy a bit of a bump in rankings and reputation.

  39. Check out this article. David Freedman, former editor-in-chief of your commode's law review, is unemployed.

    "Anyway, I admired the kid’s spunk, so I met him for coffee last week. And David Freedman, the 2009-2010 editor-in-chief of the Chicago-Kent Law Review, seems like an articulate, decent guy. He has the EIC credential. And he’s available. (I must say that I’m dumbstruck to learn that the editor-in-chief of the Chicago-Kent Law Review is having trouble finding a job, even in a terribly tough job market. David’s letter acknowledged that his situation might be different if he had “finished at the top of [his] class,” so perhaps that’s an issue. I really don’t know; I didn’t chat with David about his grades.)

    That was the wind-up; here’s the closing pitch:

    On the one hand, if there’s a chance that you have a job (or a lead for a job) that can help this guy, please send an e-mail to David Freedman at Let’s make this column at Above the Law serve a purpose. Let’s find a job for at least one unemployed recent law school graduate."

    What does that say about the quality of the school?!?!

  40. Nando, I'm the guy who posted above on Jan 29th at 8:39 AM talking about the importance of people taking responsibility for their own actions. I used "you" a lot, but my post wasn't directed at you. As I said, I sincerely think this blog serves a valuable public service. You raise very valid points. However, many of the comments here are being posted by people who did none of the due diligence that you did. Plenty of them made what was on its face a foolish financial decision, and they're blaming everyone but themselves. Those are the people my comments are directed at.

    As I said, it's never been a secret that a degree from a marginal school isn't very marketable. That should have been obvious to anyone with a modicum of common sense. Nor is it a secret that living with many tens of thousands of dollars of debt sucks. Nor is it a secret that school loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy. The people who are upset with their decision about whether and where to go to law school failed to draw a logical conclusion from those facts. They should begin every rant with an acknowledgment that they are at least 95% to blame for where they're at, with the school bearing about 5%.

  41. I graduated from Chicago-Kent in 2000. I was Top 15% and had a $100,000 offer at a medium firm. I decided to move out of state and took a $35,000 job that has steadily grown to $125,000+. I worked full-time at the school so they paid for part of my tuition plus I received a salary. I had $60,000 in debt and it's paid-off. I enjoyed my professors and think I got a great education.

    There are not that many positive comments on this site because those of us happy with our jobs and Chicago-Kent are too busy working to be surfing the web looking for other losers to make us feel better.

  42. To the idiot at 8:19,

    Did you ever stop to consider that the job market has changed since 2000?!?! Or do you prefer to block out critical thought?

    As you can see, the Chicago-Kent Commode of Law is a middling, overpriced piece of garbage. Go visit JDU and Temporary Attorney, and see what those lawyers think about toilets such as Chicago-Kent.

    As far as your whining about the number of negative comments, there would be more comments to that effect - if less JDs internalized their failure. By the way, you write like a pussy, i.e. "there are not that many positive comments." Speak and write directly, lawyer.

    By the way, how well did the bulk of your former classmates do after graduating from this trash pit?! Do you see medical students and MDs or DOs sweating bullets, with regard to their class rank?! How many medical students are losing sleep, because they attend a third tier rat-hole?

    How can you support a $y$tem that produces FAR TOO MANY law grads, for the available number of attorney openings?!

    The JD Class of 2009 had 44,000 graduates - competing for 28,901 jobs requiring bar passage. Look at this two page document, shill. See how many of these desperate JDs who started their own practice. How do those facts square with your "analysis"?

  43. I intend to start law school this fall. Currently, I have a BS in Civil Engineering from Purdue,a MBA from Kellogg, and 8 years of work experience in the field of engineering. Although I haven't heard from a majority of the schools that I have applied to, I have so far been accepted to DePaul and Kent. I intend to specialize in IP and the IP program at both schools is ranked in the top 25, whereas the IP programs of Chicago and NW are not. Am I better off focusing on the reputation and rank of the overall school or of the IP program itself?

    1. You posted this in 2011. It is now 2016.

      Did you attend law school? If yes, then how did things turn out?

  44. The only reason the top law school grads get more high paying jobs is that those firms like the status candy of their grads knowing full well they will never make partner. Those that tend to make partner these days are people who generally have work experience prior to practicing law in addition to school name or great grades.

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  45. Am I to take it, that if I was offered a full scholarship to this "commode", as you so affectionately call it, you would recommend that I consider the other 19 schools I applied to (most of which are only offering $60,000 in scholarships)?

  46. I'm on the opposite side of most of the posters here since I'm not an attorney but rather a client or someone who has hired many attorneys for my companies. Every "reputable" law firm I've hired from San Francisco to Chicago charge $300-$600/hr. It always averages out to about $375/hr. Doesn't matter what school you went to because I'm paying the same whether you went to U of IA or Harvard. Mind you that pretty much all of the law firms I've dealt with they sprinkle in a Harvard, Yale, Stanford, U of Chi, UC Berkley type onto their team roster. I've racked up more legal fees than anyone of your tuition schedules (possibly combined). What did I get for all of those fees??? - nothing but just dumbass formalities. I think the world would be better without corporate attorneys and leave things to CPAs. I value my CPA and accounting staff more than I do my 3rd party attorneys. Maybe that's why I hire accounting folks rather than attorneys internally. If you are questioning a career in law, I'd suggest finding yourself in accounting work. It's good pay and less pain in the ass. My last Sr accountant left a $85K salary from my company to work for more money and more perks. She went to a state college in Wisconsin, 31 yrs old, single mom. Not too shabby.

  47. Nando, it's distressing reading this, since I have felt indebted to Kent. I remember my dad taking the "el" to Kent at night from his job as a chemist, graduating around 1950. As he rose to the top of his firm's patent law department, he referred several women chemists there, who also did well. Kent had seemed special to me, due to Dad's appreciation and for its openness to women. I feel sad how times have changed.
    Having been a graduate school professor in a different field, I tried to let applicants know that their degrees would not insure employment, and faulted this school for its distorted propaganda.
    I have seen good scholarship produced by bright students institutions with varied reputations, and believe that much of what is gained is related to the students' academic (not financial) investments. Nevertheless, it's upsetting to encoounter academicians who do not invest enough in students.
    Your disclosures are significant provocations to challenge the mythical approach many of us have had as applicants to graduate schools. Thank you!

  48. rocky10000, this is a highly stratified industry. Biglaw partners can easily pull down $400K per year. Sure, they worked many years to be in that position. (Some, simply had the right last name or political connections.) However, those who do not land Biglaw, i.e. the VAST majority of law students, can look forward to the following: making $10-$20 an hour as a doc review monkey; non-law positions; unpaid legal internships; being “overqualified” for most non-legal openings; unemployment and under-employment; earning $35K-$55K per year - as a practicing toiletlawyer; etc.

    To the poster at 7:55 am,

    You are welcome. Thank you for those encouraging words. Now, a few "law professors" have pointed to the serious flaws inherent in American "legal education." There was a blog entitled “Angry Admissions Law Guy” - for about a week. Apparently, he provided a bit too much detail about his school. He took the blog down, almost immediately. On my current blogroll, I link to a site that is run by a former university administration employee. I am glad that some academics and former employees are starting to step forward. By the way, it is telling that people are afraid to blow the whistle, on this scam. Especially, when the opposition is comprised of “scholars” who (supposedly) love the exchange of ideas and academic freedom.

    In the end, law schools are one actor, in the greater "higher education" cartel. Universities and colleges now openly flaunt that they are business ventures. This is why you will often see college "presidents" raking in more than $1 million per year. You will also note that MANY college football and men's basketball coaches are making a financial killing. This system is a tragic joke. “Higher education” has become a commodity, and the administrators and most “professors” do not give one damn about the students. I hope that you will continue to follow this blog, as well as contribute to the discussions.

    For instance, look at the raw numbers of college students, even though the job market is in the toilet. Furthermore, advances in IT, machinery and software have led to less need for workers. Take a look at this October 20, 2010 piece from Richard Vedder, economics professor at Ohio University:

    “Over 317,000 waiters and waitresses have college degrees (over 8,000 of them have doctoral or professional degrees), along with over 80,000 bartenders, and over 18,000 parking lot attendants. All told, some 17,000,000 Americans with college degrees are doing jobs that the BLS says require less than the skill levels associated with a bachelor’s degree.”

  49. I had considered writing something compassionate, but truly, I cannot. I am a Kent graduate (1989). I am one of Bam-Bam's 1%. It worked for me (and I worked nearly full time while I was in school). Why? Because (A) I had the mental horsepower to start with and (B) I WORKED MY ASS OFF FOR 3 YEARS. I have a magna cum lauda degree from Illinois in Math. Law school was much, much harder. You whiners either lacked the ability or you did not work hard enough. Is there a third possibility? I don't think so.

    You cry babies! Have you looked at your law license (do you even have a law license?)? In Illinois, at least, it says you are a "Counselor". How can you purport to be a counselor if you are not clever enough to have realized what it took to succeed?

    I wish you people practised law. Then I could possibly be on the other side of a matter from you and eat your lunch.

    Pick your sorry asses up and do something useful. There are tons of people who need legal assistance; but they aren't all able to pay you $500/hour. Law school is a start, but it is only a start. Get out there and work, like you should have for three years. And, by the way, practising law is much harder than going to law school. No one wants their lawyer to do a B+ job for them.

  50. To the worthless piece of trash who posted a comment on February 7, 2012 at 6:01 pm,

    How is life in St. Louis, Missouri, ass-clown?!

    From my analytics:

    "Unique ID: 560370013
    IP address:
    Locale: Saint Louis, MO, USA / English
    Platform: Internet Explorer 9.0 / Windows 7 / 1441x810

    Feb 7 2012 5:52pm 5 actions 8m 18s nova southeastern law"

    If you graduated from the Chicago-Kent Commode of Law in 1989, LIAR, then you wouldn’t be such an emotional pussy, over some negative reviews. Furthermore, you would not be performing a Google search on Nova Southeastern University Shepard Broad Law Center. Here is my review of that stench pit, PROSPECTIVE LAW STUDENT:

    By the way, your “work hard” meme is nonsense. This is such a tired, old, discredited argument. Millions of people work their ass to the bone, and never get ahead in life, ignorant pig. Hell, the McDonald’s employee running the drive through works harder than you, or the typical white collar worker. (They don’t work harder than your mother, but then again she earns her income by blowing men in the bus depot.) Does this equate to more compensation?!

    Nice try, cockroach. Since we are not in England or Canada, the term is "practiced" - not "practised." You misspelled the word TWICE, moron. Try spell check, bitch. If you were "on the other side," imbecile, the only thing you would be eating is your adversary's ass. Also, your writing style reflects that of a high school student, NOT someone who has been practicing law for 22 years. You are dismissed. Have fun in law school, mental midget/hysterical vagina.

  51. Hi. I'm the worthless piece of trash you referred to. Sorry I struck a nerve. I actually work from my home in a Chicago suburb, Sherlock Holmes. I'd give you my complete bio, but you seem a bit unglued. Maybe you should reapply to a law school ("top tier" of course) and this time do it right.

  52. Further thoughts from "the worthless piece of trash who posted a comment on February 7, 2012 at 6:01 pm".

    Hypothetically, what would your position be had your "third tier law school" considered your application and told you that, in their judgment, you probably would not excel at the practise of law, and, accordingly, they would not offer you admission, regardless of your willingness to pay for the experience?

  53. I received a full-tuition scholarship to attend Third Tier Drake. Otherwise, I would not have gone to law school. I have mentioned this on the blog SEVERAL times. Hell, I told my wife, friends and family that I would not attend law school short of a full-tuition scholarship - prior to being accepted.

    For someone who is so "successful," you seem to spend a lot of time on this blog.

    Unique ID: 790101676
    IP address:
    Locale: Chicago Heights, IL, USA / English
    Platform: Internet Explorer 7.0 / Windows XP / 1600x900

    Feb 9 2012 5:45am 1 action 10s
    Feb 8 2012 4:33pm 1 action 10s
    Feb 8 2012 4:10pm 2 actions 13s
    Feb 8 2012 11:16am 2 actions 30s
    Feb 8 2012 8:01am 1 action 10s
    Feb 8 2012 7:34am 2 actions 8m 39s
    Feb 8 2012 7:12am 1 action 10s
    Feb 8 2012 6:38am 1 action 10s
    Feb 8 2012 6:14am 1 action 10s nando connviser kent
    Feb 7 2012 5:44pm 3 actions 2m 2s
    Feb 7 2012 12:02pm 1 action 10s
    Feb 6 2012 4:20pm 7 actions 7m 1s
    Feb 6 2012 3:31pm 1 action 10s Professor Conviser kent

    Learn how to spell, bitch. Maybe you can PRACTICE that "skill." Hell, you even misspelled Conviser's last name on one of your Google searches.

  54. Hi, its "the worthless piece of trash who posted a comment on February 7, 2012 at 6:01 pm" again. Just a thought, but have you considered that your apparent inability to express yourself without sexual or scatalogical references might be affecting your ability to find gainful employment? You might consdier getting a copy of the "Elements of Style".

  55. Hi Nando - keep up the good work. The problem is there are way too many law schools in the country. In Illinois there should only be 3 schools U chicago, NU and UIUC. The same idea should be across the country - keep the 20 or so top private schools and flag ship state schools. There are 180 schools, while to meet actual demand for lawyers we only need 70-80 good schools. Look at Canada, they have limited their number of law schools to only 20 or so with only 2000 places a year - virtually all Canadian law school grads are employed. In the US we have 40,000 entrants to law school, if we followed the Canadian model, based on us having 10x their population we would only have 20,000 students entering law school. Blame the ABA for allowing all these schools to open up and charge 45k a year!

  56. FWIW, I read this very article 4 years ago, went to Chicago-Kent anyways, and landed a $160k job. I had a great time at Chicago-Kent and it worked out for me professionally and financially. So it does happen.

  57. It does happen. 20 years ago I also started with a BigLaw firm at a top tier salary straight out of law school. The economy wasn't very good back then either, but I'm an IP attorney, so employment was relatively easier compared to my poor classmates who had to take $30K a year jobs.

    But here's the thing, unless you are in the top 10% of the class or in IP, getting a top tier job is difficult and the career resources center stinks.

    Regardless, there is hope. But I would still recommend the other law schools that are constantly being mentioned if at all possible.

  58. I'd be more interested in the legal classes that deal with eDiscovery.

  59. it will be interesting to keep an eye on the proceedings in the appeals court, this is what i waiting for, appreciating work, keep it up

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  60. At least you didn't go to John Marshall!

  61. Lest anyone consider attending the Chicago-Kent Commode of Law, as I did, here's a somewhat recent article about how the job prospects are doing (DePaul is not much better). None of this comes as any surprise to me.

    And naturally, the complicit deans at each school attempt to blunt the crux of the article. Typical...

    "How Chicago law schools rank in job placement"

    DePaul University College of Law and IIT Chicago-Kent College of Law nearly tied among Chicago-area law schools for the lowest percentage of 2014 graduates who found jobs requiring bar passage, according to data released yesterday.

    Ten months after graduation, about 58 percent of DePaul's graduates had found jobs requiring them to pass the bar, according to data from the American Bar Association. At Chicago-Kent it was about 59 percent.


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