Wednesday, March 17, 2010

Turn on the Fan: Loyola University - Chicago School of Law



http://www.luc.edu/law/admission/jd/pdfs/fall%202010/Corrected_Cost_of_Attendance_Budget_1011.pdf

Tuition and Fees: [Disclaimer: this is not for the faint of heart or for those with a family history of cardio problems] In order to attend this toilet of law for the 2010-2011 academic year, a full-time student will pay $37,380 in tuition only! (Do you need a moment to recover your senses?)

Total Cost of Attendance: Okay, now here is the real kicker: total COA is estimated - by the school - at $58,074 for a full-time peon/student, for the 2010-2011 school year.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/rankings/page+4

Ranking: Surely, the school’s sterling reputation among “the legal community” justifies such costs, right?!?! Well…according to US News & World Report, Loyola-Chicago is tied for 87th best law school in the land – with six other schools (including another piece of trash in the same city, i.e. DePaul)! It’s uncanny how many 6 and 7 way ties US News comes up with, in its annual law school rankings scheme. Who says politics plays no role in these rankings?

So what if the school’s reputation is lower than corroded toilet water – certainly the job prospects can’t be that bad.

http://www.luc.edu/law/career/2008_data.html

Employment Prospects: For $ome rea$on, the school does not provide an actual breakdown of employment placement or starting salary info. Instead, the school throws out a bunch of meaningless info. (I wonder why that might be.)

http://www.luc.edu/law/admission/jd/pdfs/docs%20for%202010/09-10factsheet-1.pdf

More garbage spews forth – from this purported “Fact Sheet.” Seriously, just peruse this putrid filth for a minute. Make sure to bring a cloth to hold over your nose.

http://www.luc.edu/law/admission/jd/pdfs/docs%20for%202010/Distinguished_alumni_09-09.pdf

A list of supposedly “distinguished alumni.” Have you ever heard of any of these people? Neither have I. And guess what? After you get a JD from this fesTTering TToileTT, the only person who will know your name is the bureaucrat who processes your unemployment benefits claim. And perhaps, the person who processes your Food Stamp application will too.

http://www.luc.edu/law/about/worldclass.html

Location: You can always tell a sewer of law by the way it puffs up its location. Well, new flash for you: you are also located in a HEAVILY-SATURATED legal market. Legal employers are seeking to hire attorneys for $10 an hour on Craig’s List:

http://temporaryattorney.blogspot.com/2010/03/chicago-to-10-hour.html

Oh, and I almost forgot. You will be competing against students from two top ten law schools – in the same city – for legal positions. Good luck, Lemmings!

http://www.luc.edu/law/activities/publications.html

And lastly, NOBODY gives a wet turd that you were the Notes Editor for the Public Interest Law Reporter – or the equally bland Children’s Legal Rights Journal. In fact, it is best to leave these "accomplishments" off your resume, altogether.

What is so upsetting about these toilets is that they KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that their students will have little chance of landing a job that will pay them enough to allow them to repay their student loans and have a decent lifestyle. Yet, the tenured “law professors” of these genteel “institutions of higher learning” are not doing without. They talk about public service and giving something back to the community, but they earn well above $150K a year for “working” a mere 6 hours a week!

By their fruits, ye shall know them – especially when they teach at ostensibly Christian schools and yet make money over fist while pushing legions of young people into a lifetime of financial ruin. I imagine Jesus of Nazareth – as presented in the Bible – would literally toss these professors and administrators out into the street. With a nice, swift kick in the ass – for good measure!

DO NOT ATTEND THIS SCHOOL, UNLESS YOU ARE GETTING A FULL-RIDE SCHOLARSHIP, ARE NOT PAYING ANY LIVING EXPENSES, AND YOU HAVE A JOB LINED UP! Got that?! Don’t even bother applying to this dump. Yeah, the school waives its $50 fee, if you apply online. Big deal - I just saved you $180K in debt, and a lifetime of misery, disillusionment and failure. I didn’t charge you a fee, either.

31 comments:

  1. Great post Nando!

    Some thoughts:

    With 100% reporting, approximately 12% don't have a job after 9 months.

    They also have it documented that the low end of "private practice" is 32k. So over 1 in 10 pre-recession graduates of Loyola were making between 0-32k after graduation. This figure is probably much higher since only a little over 50% of the class reported. I wonder what the other 50% is making...

    These "academia" positions are also fishy. Who gets 70k-100k for an "academia" position out of law school?

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  2. What a craphole. The number of shiTTTy law schools in the US is beyond belief.

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  3. You mean to say that no legal emploers care about one's distinguished service on these fifth-rate journals? HOw can that be? My law school told me that such experience would make me stand out.

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  4. It looks like you are beating up on Chicago schools this month. But here is an item on a school you featured before.

    http://outofthejungle.blogspot.com/2008/02/drexel-law-school-wins-accreditation.html

    My favorite excerpt:

    "Drexel easily achieved its provisional accreditation.

    As it turns out, Dennis' suspicions for the cause of the delay were accurate. The council took only a few minutes to vote on Drexel's status and moved on to discuss the ABA's more controversial issue at hand - proposed interpretation 301-6."

    That shows you how 'seriously' the ABA takes this process, don't you think?

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  5. Loyola is located in the Gold Coast neighborhood about 1 block west of overpriced Michigan Avenue. Somebody has to pay for that pricey real estate. Chicago-Kent on the other hand is a better rated school (but still not worth the money) and is located on the fringe of the West Loop in more of an industrial area and is a commuter law school. And yes, having to compete with University of Chicago and Northwestern which are a few blocks away from Loyola (Northwestern is at Chicago Ave and Lake Shore Drive another pricey area and Univ of Chicago is at the equally pricey Michigan Ave and the Chicago River) makes a degree form Loyola is worthless. If you have some free time, look up the large firms in Chicago and check how many of them actually employ JMLS, Kent, Loyola and Depaul graduates. Some of these firm's websites allow you to search their attorney index by law school attended.

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  6. Great post! Is your analysis of Valparaiso coming up next, especially vis-a-vis the Christian angle?

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  7. Here is a partial list of large Chicago law firms which have John Marshall graduates on their staff:

    Baker and McKenzie 9
    Winston and Strawn 3
    Sidley and Austin 7
    Locke Lord Bissell and Liddell 7
    Ungaretti and Harris 2
    Kirkland and Ellis 9

    Total 37

    These are associate level attorneys, the majority of which graduated within the last 5 years.

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  8. I forgot to add to my above post that these 37 associate level attorneys all graduated either cum laude, magna cum laude or summa cum laude.

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  9. I wish that a student who considers going here will test the Chicago job market and ask whether things will be better in three years.

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  10. The reality of the situation is this: Loyola-Chicago Law is a terrible "investment." The school charges $37,380 in FT tuition for the 2010-2011 academic year. The school also estimates $58K for total COA per year! And this is the case, even though only a handful of students among the graduating class will land Biglaw positions.

    How can such toilets continue to justify the cost of their product/waste - when the VAST majority of their students get a negative ROI? Grads from this dump simply cannot compete with their counterparts from the top schools in the area, for legal employment.

    Underdog, prospective law students also need to quit banking on the market improving in three years. The legal market will be even more over-saturated then. Plus, if one is seeking Biglaw, they need the job market to improve in the next 12 months. If they do not receive summer clerkships after first year, they are not going to get law firm job offers after law school.

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  11. @11:58

    Just about every law firm in Chicago has graduates from JMLS and Loyola (and the other Chicago-area TTTs), but, if I interpret your post correctly, you are missing the point. If you go to one of those TTTs and finish in the top 5% of the class, you will have no problem finding gainful employment (top 10%, you'll likely be ok; top 25%, you have a fighting chance, but its a long shot). Of course, by definition, the vast majority of the class will not finish in the top 10%.

    The point Nando is making, which is correct, is that the cost to attend Loyola, like Kent and JMLS, is outrageously expensive given the likely job prospects of the vast majority of graduates. Again, if you finish towards in the middle of the pack from a Chicago TTT, you are going to be competing with graduates from U. of Chicago, NW, Illinois, ND, and other top tier regional schools who also finished towards the middle of their respective classes. With all else being equal, employers are much more likely to pick a top tier graduate over a TTT graduate. Its not fair, but its reality.

    Loyola won't inform prospective students of this reality, and therein lies the problem with Chicago TTTs. They give students the false impression that they will be competitive in the Chicago market. A small group of students will be, but most won't. And when you pile $100K+ debt on top of that, it becomes a real problem.

    Only go to a Chicago TTT, like Loyola, if you go on a substantial scholarship. Otherwise, its not worth it.

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  12. To add to what was said - the fact that you are receiving a scholarship is indicative of the fact that the school believes that you will likely place near the top of the class and are someone who has a shot at Biglaw. So your not getting a scholarship is often a near guarantee of your mediocrity at these TTTs and therefore a somewhat clear indication that law school isn't for you.

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  13. Exactly! Those attending TTTs or TTTTs have limited career prospects *the moment* they enter the law school doors. That being said, those students who excel academically at these dumps will be rewarded - and not just in terms of better job prospects. They will also get scholarship money.

    So, those who need the least financial assistance are the ones who will graduate with the least amount of student debt. Whereas, those towards the bottom half of the class - who will have the weakest, i.e. abysmal, chances at decent legal employment - will often end up with the biggest student debt load.

    Simply put, if you are attending a TTT, TTTT, or even a second tier sewer AND you are not getting a full-tuition (or otherwise significant) scholarship, then you are screwed. Law firms and government agencies generally do not want to hire someone who went to a TTT and finished in the bottom half of their class.

    In fact, pretty much everyone in the bottom half of the class - at a bottom-feeder law school - should drop out after first semester. Your "legal career" is pretty much over, at this point. Only those who are CONNECTED can afford to stay in law school, even if their grades are awful. Remember, they truly have a network they can rely on. Poor grades and lack of mental sharpness don't limit rich kids' futures. (They don't need to go to law school mixers, attended by lowly solo practitioners and toiletlaw firms - where the main feature is free cheese and crackers. They just have daddy make a call, and they are in.)

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  14. Nando you should profile one of the top schools like Harvard or Yale just to compare them with these craptastic TTTs and for everyone to see the gigantic difference in career prospects between the elite schools and the TTTs.

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  15. Nando - you should profile one of the elite schools like Harvard or Yale for people to see the gigantic difference in career prospects between them and the TTTs so that people realize in which situations it may make sense to go 100K+ in debt...

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  16. As a LUC 3L, I have to agree with 90% of this post. The school is a complete over-priced joke. The students are, by and large, intelligent but overly-fixated on private firm employment; the school, however, is so poorly run that it boggles the mind. That being said, LUC does have a pretty good alumni network in both Big Gov. and Big Law... the problem, again, is the lack of a connection b/w the LUC alums and the graduates. The Administration does nothing other than a one-time "mentor" week in the first year, and that's it. If it wasn't for my own foresight (in choosing my summer employment) and good fucking luck, I, too, would be one of the numerous soon-to-be-graduating-into-unemployment from this cesspool.

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  17. Hey LUC 3L, could you elaborate on how you got a job in the Chicago market? stats?

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  18. nando you should get a life.

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  19. To 6:56, certainly you can do more with your life than defending the indefensible. Perhaps you are a law school administrator, admissions officer, "professor" or other leech of the higher education industrial complex. If so, then it is you who needs to get a life.

    Many of my law profs sat in their offices all day long, playing on the Internet. One gets all that leisure time, when "teaching" for 4-6 hours a week. (Oh, and if they are tenured, they often make $160K for such "strenuous" time commitments.) This is also why you see volumes of comments and posts from law profs on sites such as Volokh Conspiracy and ATL.

    And don't forget that "law professors" also take paid sabbaticals, so that they can visit teach at other diploma mills and write "scholarly," NON peer-reviewed articles in student-edited law reviews. These people essentially get paid (handsomely) by federal taxpayers to sit in their offices reading the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, law.com, and watching Court TV and Youtube videos.

    The fact that you defend this system shows me that you don't care about law students - in the slightest. You simply want to make sure the system continues to operate in the same sick manner. If you are indeed a law professor or dean, then post a response letting me know that you are SERIOUS about debating me in a public forum - where we can discuss the industry and the shrinking job market for U.S. lawyers. I would be more than happy to engage you in such a debate.

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  20. The thing that is missing about Loyolla is that Loyolla has a strong alumni network in Chicago. There are a lot of lawyers out there who are willing to give Loyolla grads a chance. Searching for Loyolla law school graduates in Chicago (obviously slightly overinclusive because of some other irrelevant Loyollas) 2326. Northwestern is almost as high, 2197. (There is no way to get a good measure of University of Chicago in Chicago. Too many "Loyolla University of Chicago" entries. 467 from Notre Dame. Martindale gives 26,426 as the number of lawyers in Chicago. That, of course, excludes the suburbs.

    And I am a Northwestern grad. But I do recruiting, and know that Loyolla grads get jobs.

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  21. Would anyone suggest attending JMLS on a full tuition scholarship?

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  22. "look up the large firms in Chicago and check how many of them actually employ JMLS, Kent, Loyola and Depaul graduates"

    OK... Number of Loyola and DePaul grads emlopyed by firm:
    Winston & Strawn: 26 Loyola, 32 DePaul.
    Mayer Brown: 36 Loyola, 26 DePaul.

    ...and the list goes on and on, with dozens of grads from Loyola, Kent, and DePaul employed at top firms. If you are among the top of the class at these schools, your employment prospects are not nearly as dire as this forum would have you believe.

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  23. And those figures were accumulated over how many years? You act like these associates will make it to partnership in these large firms. And you assume these numbers represent recent law graduates.

    The fact remains that these schools charge too much for their product, and provide the VAST majority of their graduates with meager job prospects. Certainly, a relative few will do well. But you can say the same for most ABA-accredited law schools. Does this lottery system - whereby a few make out well - justify sentencing the majority to a lifetime of debt servitude, angst, and misery?!

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  24. I'm a rising 2L at Loyola, and the only reason I haven't dropped out right now is that I have a scholarship for more than half my yearly expenses, and that I apparently have practicing family members in the Chicago area.

    But after reading this post, I almost had a panic attack, will probably be having them throughout the year.

    From anybody who knows the Chicago area, is there any hope?

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  25. I may be late. But, just to add some prospective. There is hope.

    I am a recent Loyola graduate, c/o 2010. As, I type I am on my lunch break, sitting in my office, in the Chicago office of one of the nation's top 50 largest law firms. That said, I did not graduate in the top 15% of my class.

    I will admit, LUC's Career Services Department is a joke. But, not because there is a lack of opportunity for students.

    LUC is unique to the Chicago market in that it is the most highly regarded "regional" school. Yes, Northwestern and UChicago are ranked higher, but the majority of their students do not stay in Chicago. They are what is referred to as "national" schools. (Meaning they're so expressive that anyone anywhere will recruit their grads)Less than 50% of NW grads stay in Chicago, less than 35% of UofC grads. Thus, there are more LUC grads working in the Chicago area than any other law school in the nation. What this does is create a great network of alumni.In fact, the managing partner of my office is a LUC Law grad. The equity partner over my group is also an LUC Law grad.

    The majority of my friends are currently employed, 5 months out. Which may or may not be representative of the entire class. Regardless, out of the 10 women I was closet to the employment stats are as follows: (4)Biglaw, (1) Federal Law Clerk, (2)Assistant States Attorneys,(1) Non-Legal Hospital Administrator(concentrated on health law/has an MPH from Columbia), (2) Unemployed. One of the two unemployed wants to be a PD, the PD's office only hires licensed attorneys and we have yet to be sworn in. The other unemployed one was number #15 in our class, she summered at one of the 10 largest firms in the nation. They only made offers to 2 of their 8 summers. One of the 2 that got an offer is a c/o 2010 LUC grad.

    Note: NONE of us got our jobs as a direct result of the Career Service Department.

    All this to say, this post seems slightly uninformed. The students at LUC are intelligent. Most of the students I know had some form of scholarship (I had a $24,000 alumni scholarship myself). The school has a good reputation in the Chicago community. The job prospects are there, students just have to be smart and resourceful.

    Yes, law school is expensive, probably not worth it at this time, and law schools are saturating the market. But, you have to be smarter than the rest and find your in.

    Anyways, I got paid today so, I'm not complaining.

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  26. I may be late. But, just to add some prospective. There is hope.

    I am a recent Loyola graduate, c/o 2010. As, I type I am on my lunch break, sitting in my office, in the Chicago office of one of the nation's top 50 largest law firms. That said, I did not graduate in the top 15% of my class.

    I will admit, LUC's Career Services Department is a joke. But, not because there is a lack of opportunity for students.

    LUC is unique to the Chicago market in that it is the most highly regarded "regional" school. Yes, Northwestern and UChicago are ranked higher, but the majority of their students do not stay in Chicago. They are what is referred to as "national" schools. (Meaning they're so expressive that anyone anywhere will recruit their grads)Less than 50% of NW grads stay in Chicago, less than 35% of UofC grads. Thus, there are more LUC grads working in the Chicago area than any other law school in the nation. What this does is create a great network of alumni.In fact, the managing partner of my office is a LUC Law grad. The equity partner over my group is also an LUC Law grad.

    The majority of my friends are currently employed, 5 months out. Which may or may not be representative of the entire class. Regardless, out of the 10 women I was closet to the employment stats are as follows: (4)Biglaw, (1) Federal Law Clerk, (2)Assistant States Attorneys,(1) Non-Legal Hospital Administrator(concentrated on health law/has an MPH from Columbia), (2) Unemployed. One of the two unemployed wants to be a PD, the PD's office only hires licensed attorneys and we have yet to be sworn in. The other unemployed one was number #15 in our class, she summered at one of the 10 largest firms in the nation. They only made offers to 2 of their 8 summers. One of the 2 that got an offer is a c/o 2010 LUC grad.

    Note: NONE of us got our jobs as a direct result of the Career Service Department.

    All this to say, this post seems slightly uninformed. The students at LUC are intelligent. Most of the students I know had some form of scholarship (I had a $24,000 alumni scholarship myself). The school has a good reputation in the Chicago community. The job prospects are there, students just have to be smart and resourceful.

    Yes, law school is expensive, probably not worth it at this time, and law schools are saturating the market. But, you have to be smarter than the rest and find your in.

    Anyways, I got paid today so, I'm not complaining.

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  27. I may be late. But, just to add some prospective. There is hope.

    I am a recent Loyola graduate, c/o 2010. As, I type I am on my lunch break, sitting in my office, in the Chicago office of one of the nation's top 50 largest law firms. That said, I did not graduate in the top 15% of my class.

    I will admit, LUC's Career Services Department is a joke. But, not because there is a lack of opportunity for students.

    LUC is unique to the Chicago market in that it is the most highly regarded "regional" school. Yes, Northwestern and UChicago are ranked higher, but the majority of their students do not stay in Chicago. They are what is referred to as "national" schools. Less than 50% of NW grads stay in Chicago, less than 35% of UofC grads. Thus, there are more LUC grads working in the Chicago area than any other law school in the nation. In fact, the managing partner of my office is a LUC Law grad. The equity partner over my group is also an LUC Law grad.

    The majority of my friends are currently employed, 5 months out. Which may or may not be representative of the entire class. Out of the 10 women I was closet to the employment stats are as follows: (4)Biglaw, (1) Federal Law Clerk, (2)Assistant States Attorneys,(1) Non-Legal Hospital Administrator(concentrated on health law/has an MPH from Columbia), (2) Unemployed. One of the two unemployed wants to be a PD, the PD's office only hires licensed attorneys and we have yet to be sworn in. The other unemployed one was number #15 in our class, she summered at one of the 10 largest firms in the nation. They only made offers to 2 of their 8 summers. One of the 2 that got an offer is a c/o 2010 LUC grad.

    Note: NONE of us got our jobs as a direct result of the Career Service Department.

    All this to say, the students at LUC are intelligent. Most of the students I know had some form of scholarship. The school has a good reputation in the Chicago community. The job prospects are there, students just have to be smart and resourceful.

    Yes, law school is expensive, probably not worth it at this time, and law schools are saturating the market. But, you have to be smarter than the rest and find your in.

    Anyways, I got paid today so, I'm not complaining.

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  28. The central point remains that the Chicago job market is over-saturated. This situation will get worse, as there are too many law schools in Chicago pumping out far too many gradates. Apparently, the "brilliant" LUC Law 2010 grad above could not wait to tell everyone THREE times how wonderful everything has turned out for SOME of the graduates.

    News flash: pretty much any law school can boast that some of their graduates find decent employment. How much of a role did CONNECTIONS play in your friends landing employment?! In the end, family, business and political connections matter more than pedigree of the instution one graduates from.

    Look at Albany Law graduate Andrew Cuomo. He is the governor of New York. Did his "stellar legal education" set him apart - or was it the fact that he is Mario's son? He also married into the Kennedy political family.

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  29. something just doesn't ad up regarding loyola's employment statistics. for example, if you review their fact sheet, they show that the median salary is $100k (which i believe is a lie) and that the overall range is 38-160k. I can believe that there are a handful of students (~15-30..roughly 5-10%) that make it into top law firms that pay $100k+ salaries. However, how can the median be that high? They show on their fact sheet (http://www.luc.edu/law/admission/pdfs/2010_factsheet-update.pdf) that ~40% took private firm jobs at firms w/ 50 or more attorneys. Typically these kinds of firms pay attorneys very well, typically over $100k. But none of this adds up. If you review Loyola's NALP stat sheet via (http://www.nalpdirectory.com/) you see that there are only 13 law firms in chicago recruiting at Loyola. In addition, if you check each of these individual law firms, they publish how many summer associates they had for last year, how many associates they hired, and what schools they recruit from. Each of these firms recruit heavily from top law schools and if you notice many recruited very few if none at all summer associates. To me, loyola publishes a lot of bullsh*t...nothing seems to add up. IMO, i think most graduates whom receive a job are making somewhere in the $60-70k range, at best.

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  30. You are way way off on this one. David Yellen is one of the most honest deans in the country. He left Hofstra because the president of the university wanted him to keep "cooking the books" for US News after they had already been caught in 2003. You need to distinguish the honest deans and schools from the ones who aren't.

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  31. Here is a 2015 update on this overpriced disgusting toilet. Full time tuition at this toilet is $45,545 per year. According to the toilet’s website, when you add fees and living expenses to that massive tuition bill, lemmings can expect to pay a grand total of $70,858 per year. But great news lemmings! According to the nasty toilet’s 2015 Standard 509 Information Report, the 50th and 25th percentile grant amount offered by the toilet was $12,000. Therefore, lemmings who enroll at this toilet can expect to pay about $58,858 per year. Of course, this figure does not include the opportunity cost of attending this toilet, and spending countless hours on activities such as discussing who owns a fox in 19th century America.

    You might be thinking, but it’s 2015. The legal market has surely recovered by now! Try again lemming. According to the toilet’s class of 2015 employment statistics, 12% of graduates were unemployed 10 months after graduation (the U.S. unemployment rate is 5% as of May 2016). Another 20% of graduates were employed in part time or short term jobs (this number includes jobs not requiring a law license). And only 51% of this toilet’s graduates obtained a full time, long term job requiring bar passage!

    But wait lemmings, that’s not all! The toilet’s 2014 Illinois bar passage rate (the toilet has not released the 2015 numbers at this time) was 83.48%, -1.93% LESS than the state average.

    It’s simply stunning what this toilet is able to do for lemmings. For only 3 easy payments of $33,545 (plus fees and living expenses), this toilet can take lemmings with an average LSAT score of 160 (about the 80th percentile), and make them less employable in this economy. Even better yet, the toilet puts these lemmings in a position where they are less likely to pass the Illinois bar exam compared to the average test taker.

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