Thursday, April 8, 2010

Call the Plumber: Seton Hall University School of Law

Due to popular demand, TTR shines the bathroom light on the Seton Hall Sewer of Law and its Valvoline Dean/Athletic Director/butt pirate, Pat Hobbs. (We’ll see how fast the cockroaches scurry off into the corner.) Skadden Farts, a.k.a. L4L, has done a number on this school over the years. So I hope he doesn’t take issue with me shoving another plunger into this filthy commode. (By the way, feel free to beat up on Third Tier Drake any time you want.)

Tuition: For a full-time student entering this commode in Fall 2009, tuition was $21,000 per semester! Surely a stellar “legal education” from this prominent school is well worth $42K in tuition per year, right?! For part-time students, tuition is a mere $15,825 per semester. For $ome rea$on, the school does not provide an estimated cost on housing and living expenses. A mere oversight, I'm sure.

Ranking: The school is currently ranked - by US News & World Report - as the 77th most prestigious, amazing, phenomenal, and wonderful law school in the United States. It happens to share this sacred honor with 7 other toilets of law.

Employment Prospects: According to this supposed Career Services “Fact Sheet,” 94.74 percent of the Class of 2008 was (allegedly) employed within 9 months of graduation. Oh, and this was based off of a 100 percent response rate. (Yeah, sure 100 percent of the graduating class reported employment info to your office. And Halle Berry recently reported 100% satisfaction with yours truly.)

Starting Salary Statistics: The school notes that only 66.45% of these graduates reported salary info to the school. Based off of this (limited) info, the school alleges that those in private practice had a median starting salary of $125K; those who went into the business world earned a median salary of $112,500 – does this count SeTTon Hall JDs who are tending bar at Mompou Tapas Bar & Lounge or those JDs working as bouncers at Club Eclipse?; those in public service had a median salary of $54K; and those in judicial clerkships earned a median salary of $39,179.

Judicial clerkships accounted for 39.51% of employed SHU grads in 2008! One wonders how many are clerking for Small Claims Court or at the Essex County General Equity Court – or at the Child Support Enforcement Division? With regards to government, the school is apparently counting SHU alums who are working as garbagemen for the City of Newark - to reach this figure. And perhaps, SHU grads who are unloading shipping containers in Newark Bay are also included in this statistic.

Look, the best this staff of nine men and women in the Career Services Office can do is land 39.51 percent of their recent graduating class into judicial clerkship toilets! What a great investment for the students, right?!

Okay, so the job prospects are not the best – unless you have a real passion and zeal for traffic court. But where else can you see a law school dean step up to the bowl and take over a struggling third tier college athletics program?

Yes, this paid advertisement/hagiography parading as a news article shows that Pat Hobbs is also “serving” as Athletic Director of SeTTon Hall. What devotion to the school, huh!?!

Usually, a school hires a president, who hires the AD, who hires the coach. Seton Hall is doing it backward, and it will take a leap of faith (or a lot of money) for a top coach to sign on.

Edwin Leahy, the St. Benedict’s Prep headmaster who has worked on several Newark committees with Hobbs, put it this way: “When the law school dean has to head up the athletic department, something’s wrong.”

Something was wrong. The athletic department was lacking leadership and direction and, maybe most of all, had somehow lost sight of its moral compass.

Yes, charging poor people $42K in annual law school tuition is moral, right, Steve Politi?!?! I seriously wonder just how much money switched hands between SeTTon Hall and The Star-Ledger (or the reporter).

Conclusion: Do not attend this school. Just perform a Google search on this fesTTering TToileTT – see what comes up. The school charges too much in tuition and its graduates will be competing – in a RIDICULOUSLY over-saturated legal market - against JDs from MUCH better schools. Top law schools in the region include: Yale, Harvard, Columbia, NYU, Penn and Cornell. Going to Seton Hall and expecting to compete for Biglaw is analogous to someone weighing 230 pounds and expecting to win the Miss America Pageant.

A student at this dump could easily land $165K in the hole. This means, you will likely need to take out private loans to pay for your “legal education.” If this is the best school you can get into - and you simply MUST be an attorney – I suggest you re-take the LSAT and apply to local, public schools.


  1. LOL...looks like someone nuked that toilet..

  2. It's about time you got to this rotting cesspool. I was begining to think Hobbs had you on the payroll.

  3. I graduated from Rutgers-Newark and think SH is a better school. R-N used to bring in SH faculty for some courses and the difference was obvious. Also, there's no shame in clerking -- you'll make good contacts, learn something, and the hours are good. I did an internship with the Essex Assignment Judge and would have gladly returned anywhere in the vicinage after graduating if I could have gotten a position.

    You don't have write up R-N, yet. Maybe wait until it falls into triple-digit territory? Given its trajectory, this won't take long.

  4. I had a bad burrito from Chipotle today and I had to take a really bad Seton Hall.

  5. If you attend this school, you too can practice meconium law! Make the choice to become a proud SHU Pirate today! you don't want to have any "what ifs" later on in life.

  6. @ 7:07AM

    Make no mistake, both Rutgers-Newark and Settton Hall Law School are dumps. Saying that Settton Hall is better than Rutgers-Newark is like saying throat cancer is better than lung cancer. However, at about half the sticker price, Rutgers-Newark is a better buy. Besides, Rutgers has a better reputation nationwide than the lesser known Seton Hall Law school, which its university is probably best known for having reached the final four in the NCAA tournament in the late '80s or for that dormroom fire in the early 2000s. I feel for those suckers that attend Settton Hall Law School. They have been duped into paying $43K a year (comparable to tuition charged by local powerhouse schools such as Columbia & NYU). But hey, I guess if you don't want to practice law and merely go into business, a JD from Seton Hall law school averages $112,500.00 in the business sector, which is probably higher than what an entry level MBA from NYU makes.

    So what does a JD degree from Seton Hall get you? Well let's see, a majority of Seton Hall JDs wind up practicing in dirty jersey so you have the inside track to work with such powerhouse firms like the Law Offices of Vito Russo. A Seton Hall JD will likely wind up becoming a traffic court maven. The least Settton Hall Law School can do for its graduates is give them a radio receiver so that they can track down accidents and ambulance routes as they delve into the annals of shitlaw.

    Three years at Settton Hall Law school while living in the urban cesspool of Newark? I would rather do three years at Pelican Bay state prison. At least I would get three square meals a day and come out debt free at the end of my sentence. Sure I may have to endure physical sodomy but it beats the mental rape you will endure in having to pay over $180,000.00 (including COL expenses)with interest to attend this dump for three years.

  7. Great job Nando. This rotten festering cesspool and its slime administration need to be exposed. Thank you.

  8. I first heard of Rutgers when that Don Imus "nappy-haired hos" controversy came to be.

    I keep seeing on websites that a JD is great for starting up a business, who the hell are they kidding??? Most business ventures require start up capital and even if you traveled back to 2005 no bank would front any money to some 0 income 25 year old that's 80 to 200K in debt

    the idea of joining a business with a JD also reeks of Forest Gump because with all the business BAes and MBAs resumes flooding them why would they pick an inexperienced TTT JD? You semi-knowing the law has nothing to do with generating money. The only businesses that care about hiring JDes are large businesses that need in-house counsel, but that kinda of a moot point because toileteers shouldn't even bother applying for those.

    Nando kind of understated the point of the saturation in NE area, he should have listed all the LS in the NE area with the number to JD granted every year

    don't go to LS unless you're hell-bent on becoming an attorney, it's like going to truck driver school when you're not planing on becoming a truck driver

    1. avoid Cali/DC/North East
    2. do it as cheap as possible

  9. JD Underdog, I once ate some days-old Jack in the box and the only thing I could do was lay in bed and make liquid Seton halls....fml

  10. Consider the following: a law student at Seton Hall can expect to pay about $130K in total tuition, over the course of three years. (Surely, no one anticipates that this third tier dump will keep yearly tuition at $42K.) One should also take into account the cost of living on the eastern seaboard. A person could find himself close to $200K in debt from attending such an over-priced garbage heap.

    Many young college graduates may think that they have a shot at making $160K upon graduation – probably because NALP purports that 23 percent of JDs start out making this amount. Of course, the media doesn’t point out that Biglaw accounts for about ten percent of all attorney jobs.

    Furthermore, young people have been inundated with the dogma that more education = more income, as one (magically) becomes more “marketable.” Tons of college grads are stuck making $10 an hour, answering customer calls and stocking shelves. They are desperate for better pay. They also figure that it is okay to go $120K in the hole for a chance to make $160K. And if they don’t get hired on by Biglaw, many figure that they will end up making $60K-$72K. In their minds, this is not a bad trade-off.

    The reality is that many of these JDs will end up making $35K. You can hang out your own shingle, if you aren’t partial to eating or paying your bills, I suppose. How the hell is someone supposed to repay $130K-$190K in non-dischargeable student loans on this amount?!?!

    Law schools such as SeTTon Hall gladly take advantage of this naivety and young Americans’ financial illiteracy. (Many lived on student loans and part-time work during college. As a result, the $35K in student loan debt does not seem real yet – wait until it is time to pay those off.) SeTTon Hall and the other toxic dumps are only too happy to prey on these individuals.

    Remember, “legal scholars” are performing a public service, i.e. “training the next generation of lawyers, who will seek justice for their clients.” As such, they SHOULD be richly accommodated, right?!? For instance, Karen Rothenberg made $787,000 for 2007, as dean and “professor” at University of Maryland School of Law. Apparently, $371K was not enough compensation for this swine.

    I laugh when I see tools like Jack Crittenden chide law students for looking at law school as a financial investment and then turn a blind eye to the corruption of the law schools. Then again, his publications take in a lot of advertising revenue from TTTTs.

  11. That $100k figure for J.D.'s going into business is absurd. Unless living in N. Jersey is going help you get some connections to the mob, there's no way going to Seton Hall will help you earn anything close to that in the "business" world.

  12. A 50% ownership stake in the Bada Bing club + a JD from Shittin Hall = Six figure income per year.

  13. step one: get TTT JD
    step two: change first name to Antonio
    step three: change last name to Rafinili
    step four: buy several leather jackets
    step five: ?????
    step six: profit

  14. I am seriously disappointed that you discussed Seton Hall without using a Jersey Shore analogy of some sort.

  15. Jersey Shore TTT Grad meets biglaw senior partner:

  16. 8:43 AM, you’re right: Rutgers is a much better deal. While I was never able to secure a law job, even a volunteer one, nor return to my prior career, the employees at the various administrative staffing agencies that placed me were awed by Rutgers’s national prominence. Our clients repeatedly commented on my financial acumen in choosing Rutgers over Seton Hall and often sought my advice, in addition to asking me to rearrange the filing cabinets. Embarrassed by the undeserved adulation, I eventually stopped putting Rutgers on my résumé altogether, though I did continue to counsel enthusiastic college students on while many of today’s scambloggers were still in high school.

    If I had it to do over again, not only would I attend Rutgers, but also license the name to open an unaccredited school in California so I could spread the joy on the left coast.

  17. I went to Seton Hall and landed a job at NYC Biglaw (until I got canned in the Great Recession). Having said that, SHU is easily more respectable than Rutgers Law, which used to be a destination for minority recruiting for the big NY and NJ firms. Now it's not even that. There are several regional BigLaw firms in NJ which recruit at SHU (and Rutgers) which start anywhere from 110-140K per year. Of course, those spots are reserved for the top graded students.

    Moreover, the Health Law program at SHU is in the top 3 nationally, and serves as a feeder to Big Pharma which, in case you idiots didn't know, is headquartered largely in the NY/NJ metro area. See Merck, Pfizer, JNJ, Novartis, et. al.

    Bottom line-- If you attend SHU. you better do well or else you will have a long road/

  18. I suppose I can get to work on the RuTTgers toilet next.

    Seton Hall is shameless for listing $112,500 as the median starting salary for those JDs in private industry. This is pure fiction. A law degree does not help someone in the business world – without a solid business background or SERIOUS connections. Why would someone with a JD be more marketable in the corporate world than someone with an MBA and a book of business?

    Going off of the toilet’s numbers, we can see that nearly 40 percent of its Class of 2008 ended up in judicial clerkships. Does anyone honestly think that most of these grads ended up clerking for the Second Circuit Court of Appeals or for the federal district court?

    Prospective law students need to ask themselves if they can pay back $165K in loans on a salary of $40K – because that is EXACTLY where many will end up. Of course, the diploma mills do not mention this reality; that might cut into their profits.

    In sum, do not piss away your future on this toilet.

  19. Moreover, SHU recently had its first U.S. Supreme Court Clerk, some guy who clerked for Justice Alito, who used to teach ConLaw at SHU. Meanwhile, That witch Ginsburg formerly taught at Rutgers but has yest to hire a single Rutgers Supreme Court Clerk.

    SHU places most of its grads into trial level (i.e. NJ Superior Court) clerkships. That, as well as NJ Appellate Court clerkships. The NJ clerk system is set up without full time clerks to allow for employment of recent grads. Moreover, in that SHU has a robust evening program, which such students generally have built in employment, the statistics are also sort of built in for that segment of the student body.

    I thought SHU was a good school for what it was. However, I fully understand why the average schmuck who goes there might be pissed off. It comes off like a fancy schmancy school but most grads do not get cushy jobs anytime soon.

    I will say that they have hired way too many of these NYU/Columbia/Harvaard younger professors recently, each of whom has precious little practical experience, other than lobbying the closing of Guantanamo Bay. SHU used to be a working class law school, which was fine. Now, they have tried to fashion themselves as a hip young alternative to Fordham but it just isn't and never will be.

    SHU is still head and shoulders above Rutgers Law, which is like going to Howard Law School, without the prestige.

  20. @5:56

    "...but most grads do not get cushy jobs anytime soon". ANY TIME SOON? How about never. Thanks for stopping by, shill.
    You are obviously a firmly ensconced professor at Shittin Hall based both on the pleasing opinion (with faux "balance") of this toilet, your attempt to sound hip with your dated lingo, and your preocupations with the current hiring of younger professors without experience (really the only thing negative you have to say about the school). Do you really think we are interested in the latest roster of professor hirings and their credentials? Only a tenured prof would care. Now take a walk.

  21. What about Pace Law School?

    Mike Kremen, 27, passed both the NY and CT bar, and he now works at (wait for it) Radio Shack making $7.65 per hour! Yes, law school really paid off for this mamn. Oh well, he is only facing about $200,000 in total student loan and cc debt.

    "Kremen still wants that New York law firm job. He’s straining under about $200,000 of law school and credit card debt.

    He says the only mileage he gets out of being a lawyer these days is getting to tell customers he’s a lawyer. He says you can see the expression in their eyes change, and they suddenly take him more seriously. He tells them it wasn’t supposed to end up like this, but he wasn't going to sit around at home feeling sorry for himself."

  22. In 2004, I met a Seton Hall law grad that worked for Prudential Insurance. He sold me a whole term life insurance policy. We had lunch and he told me his life story, including his law school experience. I have only cried 5 times in my adult life. After he told me his trials and tribulations about trying to land a job in the legal field shortly after graduating from Seton Hall LS, I was moved to tears. I referred the guy a lot of business over the years but he dropped off the radar a couple of years ago. Let's face it, outside of New Jersey, Seton Hall LS is a relatively unknown school. Number 3 in healthcare law? Northeastern is number 2 in clinic law and it is still a toilet. No matter how glossy the brochures are or how much sweet bs the administrators can dispense, in my opinion I would avoid this school at all costs unless you are getting a full scholarship and plan to work for daddy's firm in Hackensack, New Jersey.

  23. @ 7:04. @5:56 here.

    No, I am not a tenured Professor at SHU Law. I am an alum, however. I could care less whether someone does or doesn't go to SHU Law. Were you to shed your bitterness for a millisecond enough to understand the tone of my post(s), you'd see that I understand the frustration of many SHU grads. However, when I was there, I strongly advised everyone I knew that if they were not doing well they should drop out. I did well there. It is not a school that lends itself to mediocre grades. Let's face it, most people get into a law school, and thing they are king shit. In fact, they are shit. Graduate from an SHU Law with under a 3.30 cum and you are doomed (generally). Hell, in this market, graduate with under a 3.5 and you're probably doomed. I can only advise. What people actually do is their business.

    And yes, the Health Law LLM at SHU is a bona fide career path, despite your claims otherwise.

    I am just being honest here. I know over 20 SHU Law grads with big jobs. If you go to SHU law directly out of Scranton U. or Montclair State or whatever shithole from which you graduated magna with an English degree then, again, you better graudate in the top 10% at SHU or you are fucked.

    In general, I agree with you people. if you are not prepared to study your balls off you have no business going to a non top 25 law school. No business.

  24. by the way, in the interest of disclosure, what were y'all's GPAs at your TTT schools?

  25. @ 8:32

    I will be graduating with a 3.8 GPA from a TTTT this spring. I have no job and no prospects. In fact, I only know of a handful of 3Ls that have anything.

  26. Third Tier SurvivorApril 9, 2010 at 11:56 AM

    I graduated from this ROTTEN DESPICABLE DISGUSTING FESTERING TTTOILET with a 3.0 GPA. Top 15 % first year. Top 50% at graduation (exhausted part timer working full time days).

    I secured a good job ON MY OWN based on my prior professional experience, interviewing skills, and writing sample. This DISGUSTING HYPOCRITICAL TOILET and its administration did NOTHING to help me. Their 'Career Services' Department was arrogant and dismissive. The place is rotten from the top down.

    I am one of the lucky ones. I know dozens of graduates from this RATHOLE who are unemployed, are doing part time doc review, or are out of law all together. Their employment 'statistics' are a criminal fraud yet no DA has the guts to prosecute these filth.

    If anyone considering attending this TOILET is reading this, PLEASE RECONSIDER!!!!!

  27. Nando, while your at it, why don't you take down the rest of the New York area's TTTs - Cardozo, Pace, Touro, New York Law, Quinnipiac, CUNY, Hofstra, etc.

  28. Nando,
    Now that you have highlighted a large number of toilets, you should create an alphabetical list (by school name) of hyperlinks on the main page. That way, when prospective students of these toilets visit your blog, they can quickly access the article you've written about their specific shithole.

  29. Here is the latest installment of TTTGrad on a talk show explaining his "clever" plan to pay off his student loans:

  30. Is that toilet on fire?

  31. Nando please do a blog response to this 1L lemming that touts "go to law school, it can never do you wrong"

  32. 4/9 @ 9:03 AM. I'm also an SU evening alum. Come to think of it, I obtained every one of the positions I've had since graduating, including the one I obtained directly out of law schol, completely on my own. OCi at SHU is utterly worthless as they have zero leverage, particularly these days. I ended my first year in the top 50% and ultimately ended up in the top 10% overall, but as you guys know, OCI goes by how you do early on in your law school career.
    Bottom line, unless you are top 5% there, do not expect there to be a plum job waiting for you when you graduate.

  33. Great reporting. Are you ever going to run out of pictures of totally destroyed crapbarns?

  34. If this article cited any sort of facts it would be intelligent. To me these are just mere opinions backed by very little factual information. I was going to us e it as a tool to try and help me make decisions about law school. Then I realized how poorly written it is.

    P.S. Not even a fan of Seton Hall Athletics but their baseball, soccer and of course basketball team all hold their own in an incredibly competitive Big East. They are not a "third tier" athletic school. Akron or Yale are third tier athletic schools. Idiot.

  35. To 12:42,

    Actually, I cite the facts put out by the law schools and the ABA/NALP to blow these turds out of the water. Apparently, that makes you cry and get emotional. Grow up and develop some tougher skin. Are you being deliberately dense? Just because you have trouble accepting reality does not mean that the info is wrong.

    Regarding the athletics program, Seton Hall does not even have a football team. They had a Division III football program, but canceled that back in 1982. The men's basketball team was strong at one point, i.e. the late 1980s. Now, the law school dean oversees the entire athletics program.

    Also, name me one other university or college - in the United States - where the dean of the law school is also the AD. Evidently, Hobbs is not an interim director either.

    Take a look at the following:

    Can you read where the second tier law school is charging $45,048 in tuition and fees for the 2010-2011 school year – for full-time students?!?! Do these numbers register in your gray matter?!?! Now, look at the total Cost of Attendance for this same academic year is $67,800. How do YOU justify that prohibitive cost for a second tier sewer?!

    Look at the VOLUME of negative comments from SHU Law grads, on law school-related forums, kid. It should open your eyes. And if that doesn’t, check out this site:

    You are welcome for the education. I didn’t charge you $45K for it either, you ungrateful moron. I just saved you $200K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt. Show some gratitude.

  36. a relative of mine went to Rutgers accounting. now THAT's a toilet. useless school.

  37. I have been visiting various blogs for my research papers writing. I have found your blog to be quite useful. Keep updating your blog with valuable information... Regards

  38. I don't have any words to appreciate this post.....I am really impressed ....the person who created this post surely knew the subject well..thanks for sharing this with us.

  39. Wow! That school surely needs a green plumber. Only a green plumber can take care of that by using his great system of making and keeping that clean and perfectly working without having much mess with the nearby facilities.

  40. Fantastic post! This could aid lots of people find out about this matter.

  41. Thanks for sharing info. Keep up the good work...We hope you will visit our infoformation often as we discuss topics of interest to you.

  42. Thanks for taking the time to discuss this,would you mind updating your blog with additional information? It is extremely helpful for me.

  43. Its so highly informative things are posted here. These things are the fresh and having good information are posted here, and also am seeking for this kind of information thanks for updated.

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  45. someone was in the bottom 1/2 ;)

  46. To Dumbass at 9:52 am:

    Yes, and the idiots posting a bunch of links above must have been in the top ten percent of their TTT class, right?!?! Also, it is APPARENT that law schools produce too many students. Do you see dental and medical students sweating over whether they got into a top 6 school or not?

    Do you hear medical school students saying, "If I don't land in the top ten percent of my class, I will not be able to find decent employment - or pay off my student loans"?!?! Now, if you want to, go ahead and enroll in this toilet. I am sure Dean Patrick Hobbs will be happy to take your (borrowed) money.

  47. Very very good blog post, it is straightforward and informative. No nonsense blog post. Brilliant, doc - Keep It Up.

  48. This is a dumb blog and largely untrue. Im personally friends more than 10 graduates from Seton Hall Law who make well over 150 k. Multiple judges on the NJ Federal courts. Not to mention NJ has some of the biggest law firms in the country and many of them hire Seton Hall grads because of their regional reputation.

  49. "This is a dumb blog and largely untrue."

    Wow, what piercing, penetrating logic! You must have had Harvard and Yale salivating over you.

    I guess, if you are looking forward to being a doc review chimp, then this is the place for you.

    "Almost everyone I graduated with is "disgruntled." Doc review gulags in NYC are packed with Seton Hall alums. Best you can hope for from SH is a traffic court clerkship followed by [toiletlaw] at some 35 K a year ambulance chasing mill.

    These craigslist jobs are all there really is for 95% of SH grads. Their placement is beyond abysmal."

    Subject: Even mid-sized NJ firms shun Seton Hall grads

    I suppose you feel that this diploma mill is worth an average student indebtedness of an additional $100,371. Notice that 86 percent of the 2009 graduating class took out loans for law school, moron?!?!

    “This field is more obsessed with "prestige" than those fashon-show fairies. Having a toilet school like Seton Hall on your resume is like wearing bib overalls to the ballet- everyone automatically assumes you are a dumb, half-witted moron. All employers have to go on is the resume, and toilet schools doom you to he trash can. That's the way the world works, sadly.”

    In your particular case, this assessment is true, i.e. being a dumb, half-witted moron.

  50. I found lots of interesting information here. The post was professionally written and I feel like the author has extensive knowledge in the subject. Keep it that way.

  51. The internet probably is the second best and fastest way to find a plumbing professional. You will agree that the customer service is everything.

  52. Wow, how Ironic. Contrary to your rants, the first atty profile I cliked on at CMK was a Seton Hall Law graduate! And not even in the top 10%!
    You are just bitter that you yourself couldn't perform. Law school doesn't give a name or potential to whoever didn't have it to begin with. Fool.

  53. Margaret Catalano also graduated from law school nearly 26 years ago. The market has changed since 1985, has it not?! By the way, you were the first person on this thread to mention CMK, Stupid.

    This law firm is not in the Vault 100. What was the point of providing this link, kid? To show that one can attend a toilet and still work in a law firm?! No one is disputing that, cockroach. Also, I did not attend this over-priced, Roman Catholic stink pit. Maybe you should learn how to read before posting asinine comments.

    Lastly, using one person's situation, i.e. graduate of $eTTon Hall and a lawyer at a fantastic, amazing law firm, and attempting to apply that to everyone is patently stupid and dishonest. If you want me to bitch-slap you some more, feel free to post another ignorant comment.

  54. Margaret Catalano also graduated from law school nearly 26 years ago. Click here

  55. Lemmings have their little hearts set on law school. In a way, I hope the retards keep going to law school. It's not like the shitlings are going to do anything productive with their lives anyway.


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