Sunday, May 16, 2010

Sweltering, Smoldering, Steaming Stack of Dung: Southwestern Law School



http://www.swlaw.edu/studentservices/finaid/tuition

Tuition: For a full-time student at Southwestern Law School, tuition and fees will amount to $36,950 for the upcoming 2010-2011 school year. For part-time students, this figure will “only” be $22,250 for this same school year; this evening program takes four years, by the way.

http://www.swlaw.edu/studentservices/finaid/tuition/expenses

Total Cost of Attendance: Let’s look at the costs and living expense for a full-time student living off-campus in the Los Angeles area, i.e. the worst-case scenario. Well, going off of the school’s estimated living expenses, we can see that room and board, books and supplies, transportation, student parking, insurance and personal expenses will add another $37,100 to the bill!!! Add the monthly figures for room and board ($2180), transportation ($310) and personal expenses ($351) – and multiply that by a factor of 12. Then add the figures for books/supplies ($625), student parking ($230), and insurance ($649), and multiply by two. Add these two figures together.

So the total COA for a full-time Southwestern Law student – living off-campus – would amount to $74,050 for the 2010-2011 academic year. Yes, you read that right – SEVENTY-FOUR THOUSAND, AND FIFTY DOLLARS!!!

[Blog author comes to, after smelling salts awake him from temporary blackout]

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/rankings/page+5

Ranking: Well, surely this school has a strong local and national reputation – to somewhat justify the cost of attendance, right? WHAT?!?! This school is ranked in the third tier of American law schools, as determined by US News & World Report! Are you kidding me?!

http://www.swlaw.edu/studentservices/careerservices/salary_employment_stats

Employment and Starting Salary Info: The school is happy to report 97% employment within nine months of graduation for its class of 2009. Yeah, sure you had 97 percent placement – and Halle Berry is demanding that I hurry up and post this entry so that she can have her way with me.

Now, let’s take aim at the purported salary figures, shall we? For those in private practice, the 25th percentile allegedly makes $62,500. Those in the 75th percentile, earn $90K. According to the school, the top 75 percent of income earners can EXPECT to make more than $62K upon graduation and finding a job. Only the bottom 25 percent, i.e. the losers, will make less than $62,500 upon finding a job. The school is essentially telling prospective law students that TTT grads can bank on making more than $62K upon graduation.

Do you understand the implications of this? People with a BS or BA, currently making $30K-$35K will be drawn to a “career” where they start out making $62K a year. Too bad the ABA doesn’t require these sewers to submit their SELF-REPORTED, i.e. imaginary, figures to an independent audit. Oh well, I guess this does sit well with the ABA’s motto: “Defending Liberty, Pursuing Justice.”

http://www.swlaw.edu/academics/cocurricular/journaloflaw

Oh, you think writing onto the Southwestern Journal of International Law will give you an edge in the legendary, oversaturated California legal market, huh? Well, no employer gives a moist fart about your fifth-rate journal experience. Got that?! (By the way, this rag was previously named the Southwestern Journal of Law and Trade in the Americas. That just rolls off the tongue, doesn’t it?) You think this will somehow distinguish you from the legions of attorneys in the state? Your resume and cover letter will end up in the trash can – the moment it arrives. How is that for distinct?!

Conclusion: In the final, brutal analysis, this smoldering pile of rubbish charges WAY too damn much money for its garbage product. Furthermore, you will be competing against graduates from the following law schools in the state of California: Cal-Berkeley, Stanford, USC, UCLA, Pepperdine, UC Davis, Hastings, Santa Clara University, University of the Pacific, etc. Do you think you have a shot in hell of competing against these higher–ranked schools for the paucity of available jobs?! Some of the schools on this list are not even that great, but they are higher-ranked than this toilet. And that is what matters to legal employers!

If you are a prospective law student, and you are even thinking about applying to this sewer of law, set aside your anger and sit back for a second. (Conversely, if you are an administrator or “law professor” at this dump, you can walk in front of a city bus.) Let me save you $225K in non-dischargeable debt – and a lifetime of misery, debt servitude, and angst: you are better off buying California State Lottery tickets. (At least, you can get this debt discharged in a bankruptcy proceeding.) End of story.

You want to get upset at someone? Why don’t you direct your anger at the people charging you $74K in yearly total costs for a third tier, third-rate “legal education”?

74 comments:

  1. But you get so much more than a JD at a place like Southwestern!

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  2. Are you fucking kidding me? $74K a year to attend this joke of a school? Kids, if you attend Southwestern (I wonder if you get a discount at Best Western motels for attending this overpriced heap of trash), other lawyers and employers will only see a bag on your head with the word "SUCKER" on it. Good luck spending the rest of your natural life trying to recoup your "investment."

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  3. You mean that journal article about criminal procedure in El Salvador that I edited won't guarantee me a 6 figure income?

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  4. Another tire streak of the Education-Industrial Complex.

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  5. The faculty here seem well-educated. Surely, they must know of the reputation regarding future employment. Maybe they work there for the SoCal lifestyle while knowingly bilking students. If so, how can these professors sleep at night?

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  6. scamming, scamming, scamming
    keep them dogies rollin'

    Rawhide.....

    Hell bent for leather
    Any kind of weather
    Rolling till the end of the line....

    Head 'em up!
    Move 'em out!
    Rawhide!

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  7. i would suggest you get the dirt on the recent graduates and where they really work and how much they really make so people can see what the true value of these educations are. We know the schools reporting is not accurate I mean I wonder how many people are still waiting tables a year after graduation versus the kids of the rich daddies who either work in business making a ton and would do so law degree or not or get a high paying job in a firm because of connections. Until then it is unclear if you are whining or if you have legitimate complaints.

    Cost of living will be there no matter what you are doing so that should not be factored in. What should be looked at is whether a 100-125k investment over three years is worth it over the long haul.

    If you make 40k a year and your best best is a 2-3% raise for 20 years assuming you even stay employed, versus(assuming the statistics are right) 60k a year when you start with the chance to get rich if you luck in to your own firm or score a few big cases, what would you do?

    Just because you can get in to a law school of any tier does not mean you are cut out for the work. Instead of the costs of it, maybe you need to look at yourself and see if you really want to deal with the bs in the profession. Of course you dont know until you try it, but you need to research what the experiences are of lawyers who pratice in their first five years out. What do they do? What is the rate in which people give up or find they cannot cut it?

    This blog is great and it sheds some light on a real problem as many see lower level law schools as simply Ponzi schemes. It is also a problem that has existed for atleast the 20 years since I graduated from a low level pile of dung law school.

    People talk and yet the seats just keep filling up. Why is that? It has to be more then people being lied to. Obviously most people are willing to risk 100-125k to get a degree that gives them a chance to make real money. Maybe they fail but there are too many stories of people that start off slowly who end up making 150k year plus running their own show.

    Please look in to answering those questions and this blog will gain further credibility or prove that on average law school is still a great investment.

    Unfortunately as you write this blog you are just at your lowest and things will turn around if you keep looking for opportunity.

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  8. proud bush gop patriotMay 17, 2010 at 6:13 AM

    How dare you disgusting libs impinge on my right to get fucked up the ass by Sallie Mae and Access Group. Yeah, I like getting anally raped with a 9.5% interest rate. BWAHAHAHA. Yes, it feels good! Forget the lubricant – just go in a little deeper, Sallie. There ya go! Talk dirty to me, madam!

    Don’t you commies infringe on my right to mortgage away my entire future on a piece of shit law degree from a barely accredited college or graduate school. While you beatniks are trying to “expose” the system, I’ll be busy grabbing my ankles while Access Grouip shoves a phone book up my rectum and slaps me aroud. So long, french-loving surrender monkeys! Welcome to the free market, dumbocrats.

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  9. Isn't this the school that flushes out half of its students before graduation? So they take in an extra 200 or so and take their tuition $ for a year or two and then dump them so they don't lower their bar passage rate?

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  10. "Cost of living will be there no matter what you are doing so that should not be factored in."

    Except that if you're not in school and working, you're earning income and dealing with living expenses on a pay-as-you-go basis. For many law school students, attending law school means working less (or not at all) and borrowing to pay living expenses. That is a "cost" of law school every bit as real as books and tuition. So, cost of living *should* be factored in where a student is borrowing (or relying on family or friends) to pay those expenses while in law school.

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  11. good point about the other CA schools. Students at USC and UCLA are having a hard time finding work too. If these top 20 programs are struggling, I don't want to know what goes on in the third tier.

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  12. A 5:50,

    Don’s assessment is correct. If you have paid work, you handle your bills on a pay as you go basis. For instance, a worker earning income is typically not incurring more debt to pay his heat, rent, water, sewer, gas, etc., whereas a full-time law student often is taking on more debt to pay for these essentials. To compound this problem, students are taking on more NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt to pay their bills. It seems like you are trying to downplay the significance of the total cost of attendance at this dump and similarly situated toilets of law.

    This blog is helping to get the word out about the law school cartel, and the greater Higher Education Industrial Complex. Have you noticed that the industry apologists rely on ad hominem attacks, straw man arguments, and other logical fallacies to make their point? Have you also seen where “law professors” occasionally come on this board and *the moment* I offer to debate them in a public forum, they clam up?

    http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/SSRN-id1497044.pdf

    If you want to see an economic analysis from someone in the industry, go check out Herwig Schlunk’s study titled, “Mamas Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be…Lawyers.” It is a 12 page report which concludes that law school is a poor financial investment for most students. This is coming from someone who teaches at Vanderbilt University Law School.

    Here is a report from the ABA entitled, “The Value Proposition of Attending Law School.”

    http://www.abanet.org/lsd/legaled/value.pdf

    “Dean David Van Zandt of Northwestern Law School estimates that to make a positive return on the investment of going to law school, given the current costs, the average law student must earn an average annual salary of at least $65,315.”

    Is it your position that the average law student will earn an average starting salary of $65,315?

    Furthermore, online student debt calculators RECOMMEND THAT YOU DO NOT ACCUMULATE TOTAL STUDENT LOAN DEBT THAT IS GREATER THAN YOUR EXPECTED STARTING SALARY.

    http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/loanpayments.cgi

    “A good rule of thumb is that your total education debt should be less than your expected starting salary. If you borrow more than twice your expected starting salary you will find it extremely difficult to repay the debt.”

    $ouTTTwe$TTTern Law $chool is charging a king’s ransom to students who will end up behind the financial eight-ball for the rest of their lives. A student at this commode could EASILY take on an extra $190K for a third tier “legal education” – and end up without a decent-paying job after graduation. Does that sound like a solid investment to you?!

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  13. Schools like this have a place. I went to a shit law school- Santa Clara- (Please do a review on that one day) but I went at night and paid while I worked during the day. My student loans are minimal. Plus, I had a plan: patent law. Others who were in the evening program with me had similar plans; they had professional backgrounds in social work, medicine, technology, banking, real estate, etc. and they needed a legal education to take the next step. When you have a professional background and a specific "plan," it doesn't really matter where you went to law school. I have a secure career in patent prosecution despite having been in the bottom 25% of my class at a shit law school. Prospective employers only see the MSEE and 5 years of industry experience. All that being said, I'm not sure we need *this* many shit law schools.

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  14. Nando,
    You make great points and I am a fan of this blog but I do think more studies need to be done on the value of the education. I have not done them, but I know my own story and I know that the seats continue to get too many applications even at the 4th tier piece of garbage I went to back in the early 90s.

    As for costs. Assume rent/utilities is 200 bucks a month(pick any number). That cost is there whether you are in law school or not. You say these costs are offset by working. Ok what kind of work does your average college graduate get who is considering law school? What is the average net income of say your typical 22-25 year old? That amount should be added to the tuition fees when calculaing the investment not the costs of living. Its an unfair calculation of the entire law school investment. For example, if I cannot find a job immediately after graduation or work as a camp counselor or host at Applebees because I cannot find anything that my liberal arts degree qualifies me to do(besides teach camp and wait tables at Applebees), what income am I actually losing over being in law school. Now if I come out of college making 40-60k, then you have to evaluate a bit more. If you say kids cant make that salary of 65k out of law school(and I agree they cannot), are you telling me they make more with a shitty BA from a college(whose tuition charges should be looked at even more then law schools)? I think that needs to be evaluated more because if you think options are nothing after law school, its not any better after college for most law school types.

    As a lawyer currently running my own practice who after a bunch of bs went out on my own and have done well, I fully understand the frustration of graduates now and I was just as angry at the whole system when I got out. I can tell you all the sweatshop minimum wage horrors you want to hear.

    Would I take out 100k plus loan now for the prospects that exist for graduates if I knew then what I know now? Although I would have to look at it a lot closer now as 50k 20 years ago seemed like a ton to owe after 3 years but it is probably a lot less then what it costs now. Its a tough decision because you feel like you are just digging a hole for yourself deeper and deeper while your prime years are being wasted.

    However, its not an automatic no because if I dont go to law school, what would I be doing with my crap BA in liberal arts now 20 years later. Teaching a bunch of kids that I want to punch everyday? Selling insurance? Mortgage industry? Heaven forbid I am managing a Hardees or something.

    While the odds are that even if I am hard working I fail in the law business, and by fail I mean I dont make significantly higher money then my college degree gets me, why do all of us smart people go to law school year in and year out? Its because of the slight possibility we will get rich or score into a higher social circle. We dont know what that means, but its better then a mundane life of low paying bs jobs.

    cont

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  15. A law degree may mean little to you now, but if you eventually do land a job, and you will, and get on the other side of 30, it brings in more benefits then you can expect, especially over the course of your life. I know its about instant gratification for you kids in your 20s, but be real.

    Unless I am going to some top law school, I dont care if Bozo the clown and Bugs Bunny are my law professors as long as the school is accredited and I can sit for the bar exam when I gradutate. You dont learn anything about practicing law even from the best professors whose experience is real estate closings or trust. Most law teachers are just failed lawyers or academic types that could not meet with a young black dude charged with a crime or a family that just lost a loved one in car wreck. They lock themselves in a damn library and funnel degrees to people who want to have a chance to make money in the real world. Why dont they bring in successful PI lawyers to teach law school? Because the PI lawyer would have to take a paycut despite all the real world experience he could offer students.

    You are no doubt a smart dude and you went to a better law school then I did, but for all these studies you reference, why do the seats continue to fill up in toilet law schools like I went to? Because these law school type kids, who usually arent science or engineering degreed, know they are not likely to make crap their first three years out of college, going to law school will help you score chicks, even if temprorarily, and when you are out hopefully at age 25-26, while it might take awhile to find a real job or get the experience you need to go on your own successfully, its better to do it now and deal with the debt then being 40, making 30-40k a year, while many of your buddies who took the risk of going, are likely looking at enough lifetime income that the law degree brought them to make up for the debt they took and more. Dont ask what law graduates make their first five years. Ask what they make the next 10 or the 10 after that?

    Would I take out 100k plus loan nowdays to go to law school? Tough call, but I also know that without it, I am a 40 yr old bitter asshole making 30-40k in some bullshit job wondering what if while my fat wife nags the shit out of me or is banging my neighbor. Law practice is filled with bs lies and so much more crap I could blog about, but I am guessing that I am happier because I have money or atleast the opportunity to make it.

    Until the seats stop getting filled, I think more analysis needs to be done by real world practitioners and those who tried and failed, not some professor hack who is writing a thesis to keep tenure.

    Keep up the information and best of luck to you and all the kids graduating this year.

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  16. http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/loanpayments.cgi

    “A good rule of thumb is that your total education debt should be less than your expected starting salary. If you borrow more than twice your expected starting salary you will find it extremely difficult to repay the debt.”

    Dude, if you are trying to get any credibility at all you do not post this drivel.

    If it was true, very few would go to college or the liberal arts degree would be phased out. Everyone would be in community college, or have to rely on being able to get into a name school whose connections can get them a job that matches the criteria. Certainly possible, but not reality.

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  17. But at Southwestern you might get to rub elbows with the likes of Jerry O'Connell, and you can't put a price on an opportunity like that!

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  18. Is Southwestern University School of Law a sister school to Northwestern University School of Law? A cousin? Black sheep of the family?

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  19. "...and Halle Berry is demanding that I hurry up and post this entry so that she can have her way with me."

    Well, it *IS* possible, you know. (lol)

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  20. Halle Berry is a now a 4th tier piece of ass. You need to aim higher.

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  21. @10:13,

    Just because you don’t agree with something does not make it drivel. I didn’t come up with that figure. The online student loan calculator came up with this recommendation. Plus, it seems like good advice. If you want credibility, then you should not resort to knee-jerk reactions, i.e. “Nando posted some information that doesn’t agree with my beliefs. Now I am going to post a sophomoric comment on his blog.”

    http://www.finaid.org/about/

    Read “About FinAid” and learn something. Do yourself a favor and see the small profile on founder Mark Kantrowitz, a noted financial aid and college planner. Look at the awards this site has won, while you are at it. This service apparently has a solid reputation, unlike the self-serving, SELF-REPORTED misinformation put out by the law schools.

    In sum: Know what the hell you are talking about BEFORE making an ass out of yourself. Got that?! By the way, this is a good life lesson to learn, and I didn’t even charge you a dime for it.

    Also, plenty of people graduate college with under $30K in debt – especially if they attended a state school. My wife did so and now has $30K in debt, even after earning a Master’s degree. And she is definitely not from a wealthy family. Tons of college students pay their rent, heat, electricity, etc. while working and going to school full-time. I worked full-time in undergrad, paid all my bills, and had my own place – while attending night classes at a state school. This is certainly not a huge accomplishment. It is called living within your means!

    Although the unemployment rate is very high for those in the 18-29 age bracket, the fact remains that tons of college students work while going to school. This is not 1950s Princeton, where kids can tap into their trust fund – or daddy’s bank account - to pay for living expenses. This is not the 1970s or 1980s where you could easily work and save money for 2 or 3 years, and make enough to pay your in-state tuition and living expenses for 4 years. In contrast, how many current college students do you know who graduate from college within 4 years?

    Even with a pathetic liberal arts degree in hand, many college grads earn more than $30K per year. This is not great money, by any stretch. But a person who has $20K in student loan debt, while making $35K a year is in better shape to repay his loans than someone armed with a law degree and saddled with a $42K job and $179K in non-dischargeable student loans. The former is probably looking at paying $230.16 a month in student loan payment, whereas the latter is looking at paying $2059.94 a month (both figures are based on a ten year repayment plan and 6.8% interest rate).

    If on a 25 year extended payment plan, the graduate with $20K will be looking at a $138.81 in monthly loan payments, whereas the person with $179K in loans is looking at making $1242.39 in monthly payments; this is based off of the afore-mentioned 6.8% interest rate.

    Do the math yourself and see what you come up with. By the way, MORE people should be going to community college as a way to save some serious money their first two years of higher education. In many places, you are looking at paying less than $2000 in yearly tuition and fees at a community college – even as a full-time student. Bust your ass, keep your low-wage job, and then transfer to an accredited four-year college. Can your precious ego handle that?

    @ 9:56 - you make some good points. However, people who work $30K jobs can at least hone their skills, establish business relationships, and avoid life-altering student debt. Also, one of the main reasons people keep flocking to piece of trash law schools is desperation. They think that they can get the extra credential and earn $60K, instead of the paltry $35K they are making now. Americans need to understand that it is okay to work at desk jobs making $34K a year. It is fine to be a warehouse foreman, or to be a plumber or mechanic.

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  22. I graduated from Southwestern last year (May 09), and I still can't find a job. Everything said on here is 100% true. Those employment numbers are a complete lie. Very few people have jobs, and those that do are making less than $40,000 a year and working crazy hours. Getting a law degree was the biggest mistake of my life. I wish I had done something completely else.

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  23. "Americans need to understand that it is okay to work at desk jobs making $34K a year. It is fine to be a warehouse foreman, or to be a plumber or mechanic. "

    You say that and then went to law school Nando?

    That makes the joke of you going to law school and not being able to use the degree even more laughable. Atleast many people who go and then cannot do anything with it do it because they do not believe that 34k or a Warehouse Foreman is the way they want to live even if it is fine for most. I am guessing that was not fine for you when you took the dive into Drake for law. Now it is? Shit.

    Your blog is great and states many true facts, but geez man I think your own statements sometimes reflect the need for some inner evaluation and psycholigical help. You have no clue where you want to be and what you want to do and the debt only makes things worse on the inside because things dont come easy. Welcome to the real world. Its a bitch.

    I feel for you man.

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  24. for those who read this blog and who are considering law school, please realize something about the comments above that are posted by those who claim to be experienced lawyers and who claim that law school may well be worth it: these comments talk about working your way up over a period of years. But those posters purport to be experienced lawyers who went to schools years ago--in a time when the lawyer to population density was much less than today. Also, even if they are telling the truth, they are most likely leaving out crucial aspects of their success story. For example, that they may have had financial support from spouses or family for years and years after law school, or that they came from a small town where there are not many lawyers. etc etc. They always seem to leave out these crucial factors.

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  25. "Your blog is great and states many true facts, but geez man I think your own statements sometimes reflect the need for some inner evaluation and psycholigical help."

    You got all that from his comment, huh? OK, Dr. Phil. Didn't this son of a bitch also mention that he got a full-ride scholarship to atted Drake? You left that part out. Also, sometimes (now, this may sound crazy, but stick with me for a minute, okay) people's attitudes change as they gain more life experience. Not everyone holds the same views throughout their entire life. I know this may seem like a far-fetched theory to you, but this does happen.

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  26. hey 337, if u know anyone that went to law school(insert reason here) and then after investing the time and money decided that because they could not find a top level job immediately after graduating, says its now ok to work for 34k in a warehouse type job for life or atleast the unforseeable future and truly believes it, then I have some beach front property in Iowa to sell you.

    Smart driven people like Nando, absent mental issues, typically progress, not regress, because of life experience, unless they just admit they are a failure before they really try to succeed in life.

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  27. @ 9:56

    Your post is ridiculous. Yes, SOME people will strike it rich. But your post is predicated on the notion that everyone with a law degree will eventually achieve success.

    The market is so saturated that it's near impossible to get your foot in the door. And setting up a solo practice is full of so many hurdles, not to mention the threat of disbarment, that it isn't an attractive option for recent grads.

    And did you just advocate going to law school so that your "fat wife" won't sleep with the neighbor? Now that's a scholarly argument.

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  28. HUGE fan of the blog and long time follower. If anyone is interested, I just started my own blog. Thanks!

    http://openyoureducatedeyes.blogspot.com/2010/05/my-idea-to-change-student-loans-and.html

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  29. 743. You sound like another quitter in life. What job with any potential chance at real money is not tough to break into? Has a high chance for failure? Thats life my friend.

    If you arent willing to get in the game and try, then go get your 30-40k a year job and watch for the midlife crisis sooner then you think.

    What market in anything is not saturated? People are pissed off because they cant get a teaching job in a crappy school district making 25k a year to teach a bunch of arrogant kids.

    What do you recommend smart people do for work/education who are not science/engineering types? Please tell us or is it like Nando and just accept the fact that you are not going to make too much so dont take out a loan.

    Why do these law school places keep filling up with so many applications for one spot even in a crappy 4th tier school that charges a ton?

    Law is not for everyone, but with all the information out there, including stories from people who graduate and cant find a job, why do people continue to apply to school and take on some debt? I doubt its because they believe the job statistics. They hear and see the success stories, rare as they may be.

    I agree that going to law school at a low level school and taking out a loan is not the easiest thing to do in this day and age, but what other options are there absent risking the same money starting a business(assuming you can even get a loan to do it) that can get you some real money eventually.

    Thats why no matter how much it looks on the surface to be a total rip off with a bad job market, it is something that will continue to grow with new schools being added everywhere. There are tons of smart people who are looking for a potential opportunity to make real money because they simply are too smart and too driven to have a 9-5 job with a salary that does not mean crap.

    If you had a product that people willing to pay your price for and had people lining up to buy it even after you ran out of it, would you lower your prices? Change your business model?

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  30. I have never worked as a warehouse foreman. If I had, I would not have considered attending or applying to law school. I was making the point that too many people in this country believe that if they simply go to college and graduate school, they will end up climbing the social ladder. This is clearly not the case.

    I know plenty of people – who have never set foot in college – who make more money than many recent JDs and Master’s degree holders. By the way, many of these “people working crap jobs” can afford to buy a home, get married and have kids in their 20s. It is called living within your means, i.e. purchasing affordable homes, not McMansions; cutting back on other living expenses; learning to live without material possessions you don’t need; etc. It can be done. Also, these "simple people" can play basketball with their kids when they get older, unlike many JDs who held off on having kids. Do you believe that everyone should go to college? From a practical standpoint, what would we produce/build/repair if EVERYONE had a college degree?

    As a further symptom of this delusional thinking, you see many people with advanced degrees who tell themselves that if they get the "right" degree their lot in life WILL improve. I have seen many law students who already had Master's degrees - MBA, MSW, MS, etc. – pursue a “legal education”. In many cases, these people simply ended up further down the financial rathole.

    I also see many JDs who insist that if they pass the bar exam, they will be more marketable. If you do not have a legal position lined up by graduation, then your chances of being hired by a law firm or DA's office are slim to none. Do you care to argue this point? What is the point of throwing away thousands more dollars and countless hours - so you can say, "I am an attorney-at-law"? When you can't pay your bills, we'll see how impressed your friends, family and colleagues are with your education.

    I love how the industry apologists rely on personal attacks to "make their point". Apparently, they cannot make the argument that law school is a good investment. In fact, I have yet to see anyone on this thread explicitly make this point. Instead, I have seen people say things along the lines of, "Well, you must be a failure or suffer from mental illness."

    I can accept reality. I am not under any illusions that passing the bar exam will lead to legal employment. Law firms will not suddenly look at me as a serious candidate for any positions they may have. As the person above noted, I did receive a full-tuition scholarship to attend Third Tier Drake. I also told my wife and family beforehand that I would not attend law school UNLESS I received such a scholarship. That is the sole reason I attended this third tier commode. I also had a spouse who worked while I went to law school. I knew that I could keep my costs down. Do you understand where I am coming from now?

    It is comical that the apologists overlook the fact that the total yearly COA to attend this third tier piece of filth, i.e. Southwestern Law School, amounts to $74,050! Instead, they assert that those of us who point out the shrinking legal market - and the law school cartel - are somehow mentally deficient. Who can blame them? When you don't have any facts to back up your position, it is always easier to launch baseless ad hominem attacks.

    Let me drive the point home to you, 7:05. Would YOU attend Southwestern Law School – if you had to pay for the education? If your nephew or son was accepted into this commode, would YOU encourage them to go – if they did not receive a large scholarship to attend? That is the REAL test of your commitment to the industry.

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  31. you are not specialMay 18, 2010 at 6:35 AM

    To: 5:51

    "You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everyone else, and we are all part of the same compost pile."

    ~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club, Chapter 17

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  32. I VOTED BUSH TWICEMay 18, 2010 at 10:01 AM

    Keep playing the liberal 'blame game'. See where that gets you. Let's see...Hmmm. Sarah Palin loves our freedoms. Democrats HATE our freedoms. the choice for 2012 is obvious! GO GOP! GO FREEDOM! GO USEA!

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  33. "Nando's" pissed off drake law classmatesMay 18, 2010 at 10:03 AM

    Fernando, you are such a fucking loser. Guess what? Nearly all of us from the class of '09 have LEGAL jobs. You were a douchebag at Drake and, amazingly, you are an even bigger douche now. Has it ever occurred to you that YOU are the reason you can't get a job? Of course you haven't--you are too self-righteous to look at your situation objectively. Instead you conflate your experience to the entire legal market. Jesus man, you didn't even try to take the bar!! And did I mention you are a total douche? Might that not have something to do with the reason you couldn't find a legal job? Do us all a favor and go fuck yourself. Yes, that is a personal attack.

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  34. Drake Law School = foul-smelling trash heap. You shouldbe happy this blog put your shithole on the map. (Most still don’t know where Drake is located.) And we are all very happy that you and your fellow classmates are working for peanuts in shitlaw, and volunteer positions throughout Iowa. BTW, nothing quite screams “cocksucker” like anonymously attacking someone who calls out your TTT shithole. Did you ever tell this bitter classmate of yours that he was ‘a total douche’, when you had the chance to be a man and tell him to his face?

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  35. Drake is better than Harvard!May 18, 2010 at 10:30 AM

    I agree! My Drake Degree has helped me become a wealthy industrialist. I own my own jet, and yacht. I am going to purchase my own minor league baseball team and call them the Drake Legal Eagles. I love Drake! It is a better investment than owning an oil lease! It is a better investment than cancer! Where else can you pay $150K plus to learn how to 'think like a lawyer'.

    Go Drake GO!!!

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  36. Midlaw partner here to chime in on this discussion and offer my wisdom and experience. There was once a time, when a TTT grad could strike gold. Even up until 10 years ago, a TTT grad could set up a personal injury/ambulance chasing shop and make boatloads of money. I remember those times well. I would come out of court and see the TTT lawyers with their clients (who were removing their fake casts and neck braces) laughing about how the case settled smoothly in their favor. This is not the case anymore kids. Every state is adopting some form of tort reform. Gone are the days when you could call an insurance adjuster and get a 5 figure settlement for a fender bender whiplash injury case. Insurance companies (AllState, Geico, etc.) are willing to litigate, tooth and nail, for fender bender cases. The glory days in PI law are gone. If you plan on going to law school because you heard or know of a TTT lawyer that "struck it rich" on a PI case, you are living in a dream. Sure you can go to law school and still set up a PI shop but why would a client want to sign up with you when there are experienced pirahnas that know the system better than a "wet behind the ears" newly minted JD does. Being a lawyer is not prestigious anymore. Hell, my SL550 was waxed by a TTT grad last weekend.

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  37. Someone took a HUUUUGE DRAKE In the TOILETMay 18, 2010 at 10:43 AM

    I love how the law school apologists can only resort to attacking Nando personally. Why not attack the scumsucking lying valvoline deans and other administration cronies who perpetrate these TTTOILET frauds. Just like the knuckledraggers who keep blaming dirt poor illegal aliens for taking 'their jobs' while cheering on their precious government as it subsidizes offshoring of american jobs.

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  38. "Just like the knuckledraggers who keep blaming dirt poor illegal aliens for taking 'their jobs'"

    Objecting to law breakers makes us "knuckledraggers." Got it. I hope to God that YOU'RE not a lawyer.

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  39. @ 10:03,

    Nice assertion and piercing “analysis.” Now, would you care to back up your claim with the facts? Show us how many Drake grads - from the Class of 2009 - are working in PAID legal positions. I know several people who went back to their old industries, after completion of their TTT “legal studies.” I know several recent Drake grads who are taking court-appointed work; many others are working non-legal positions. I know several others who served as editors on the secondary journal and who could not find a legal job – many could not give their services away. At graduation, i.e. May 15, 2009, there were Drake Law Review student editors who did not have ANYTHING lined up. Does that jog your memory?!

    This is a symptom of too many law schools. Drake is simply one player among a crowded field of dump sites. If you want to ignore the facts and economic realities, then you will probably make a poor attorney. For instance, look at the rounds of budget cuts to the Iowa Judicial Branch over the last 2 years.

    Yes, there are some grads from Third Tier Drake who landed decent positions – you could say the same of most toilet law schools in this country. (You should also take into account how many of our classmates had attorney parents who could hire them.) Ask yourself the following: how many of our classmates landed an attorney job making $40K a year, but accumulated another $100K in loans? How many took out $120K+ and have no shot in hell at landing legal employment?

    At Drake, there were kids at the top of the class who took the easiest classes they could – so that they could maintain their class rank. Some of these people ended up in insurance defense! We are talking about people in the top 3%-5% of the Class of 2009. And you want people to believe that most of the Class of 2009 landed legal jobs?!?! You are a shill and a liar. To the poster above, this person did not ever tell me to my face that I am a douche – presumably because he does not have a pair of balls. His emotion-filled tirade is further evidence of this.

    Thank you for your angry, hostile comment. Even by TTT standards, you come across as an idiot. I like to keep such comments on this blog, so people can see for themselves the trash that we are up against. You have also just inspired me to make another Third Tier Drake entry; you have only yourself to blame. When the school complains, make sure you take credit for providing the motivation.

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  40. TTT Drake Insurance Defense InstituteMay 18, 2010 at 12:38 PM

    http://www.law.drake.edu/admissions/?pageID=livingInDSM

    "Welcome to TTT Drake Ins. Defense Institute, where you can learn core legal principles that go to the heart of American jurisprudence. At TTT Drake Ins. Defense Institute, you will be part of an exclusive family of world-class lawyers and justice-seekers. Des Moines is a regional hub for government, publishing, business, insurance and more. Allow TTT Drake to open the doors to a wonderful future filled with amazement and wonder. Come set up an appointment to visit the TTT campus today and talk to a sales associate. We will be happy to welcome you to this prestigious institution of higher education. Come, make your future happen! You will not be disappointed."

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  41. Larry Craig gives good GOP TOILETMay 18, 2010 at 12:40 PM

    Hey FREEPER. Yeah, objecting to lawbreakers like Thomas Paine and George Washington makes you a knuckledragger. Or maybe it's the fact that you are stupid enough to cheer for your own subjugation. Enjoy what IS.

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  42. 2004 Southwestern Law Grad here.
    I am writing from work. I almost have 5 years experience as a lawyer and make around 92k-95K salary. My income is going to be most likely above six figures for next year. I started attending in 2001. Back then tuition was 24K. The next year it rose to 26K, the last year it was 28k. I had my dad help me pay for food and some living expenses while in law school, about 300 dollar per month. Rent was 800 dollars per month for a 'rent-control" shithole studio in downtown L.A.

    After graduating I failed the CA bar by 1 point. Again, I had my dad help pay for my Barbri Prep Class rather than take on debt for a "bar loan". I passed the second time. Upon graduation I have 115K in loans, of which 105 was for law school (75K government and 30K private) and 10K from undergraduate.

    It took 3 months to find a job. I lucked out, I sent out "blind-unsolicited" resumes. My girlfriend at the time was a first year med school student and I was hired into a medical malpractice defense firm with "zero knowledge of medicine". I started out with 55 K.
    Shortly after graduating I find out that Access group was screwing my up the ass with the 30K loan I had taken out for living expenses. Within less than a year, due to negtive armortization, the loan had balloned to 37K. I had my dad help me refinance, and agreed to pay him back at 2.8% interest over 5 years.
    I soon learned that I was way underpaid. So I started looking. When I got my first apartment I slept on a mattress I borrowed from my parents for 3 months until I could afford to buy my first piece of furniture. After 1 1/2 years of experience and 8 interviews I finally landed a new job that paid 70K. This is for a insurance general lit, profesional lit, and medical malpractice lit. All Defense. In my new job I was able to obtain 8-10% salary increases per year due to hard work and successful results. Thus, my current salary level.

    I had the fortune of being hired by a partner who "let me learn according to my own devices". I have spent "numerous hours in the county law library, learning all the procedural aspect and substantive law for at least 15 different substantive cases". The job is grueling. But for now I am semi-content. I think my success has more to do with my "attitude" of low expectation and hard work, then where I went to school. Also an averion to "debt" was crucial. To this day I still drive a used toyota that's only worth 2.5k. I have no wittled my debt down to 75K (all government loans).I have paid of the private loans. I have saved approx. 50k.
    The balance of wealth is at its "tipping point".
    Maybe I am the last lucky sob to attend Southwestern. However, I would not have attended at the current tuition and job prospects. I'd probably pursue a carrier in the sciences.

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  43. 2004 Southwestern Grad again.
    Just wanted to add that "alumni network" and law journal aren't worth more than the toilet paper you use. The most important factor is 1) What is the state of the "general hiring" market; 2) what is your experience; 3) Education and credentials come last.

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  44. 2004 Southwestern Law Grad again
    By the way, I was the bottom 20% of my class.
    I was on probation the first year, but somehow managed to get with it. Class ranking is a very poor predictor of whether a law will be a success. Why should a 22 year old who just graduated from a party school be compared with a 39 year old who has family and a PHD in physics. Being successful is all about hard work and doing your homework. Also it helps to have half a brain. A lot of P.I. Plaintiff's lawyers have very poor "analytical skills". It's bad times for these types of half-ass incompetent lawyers. If it wasn't for California's ultra-liberal state laws and incompetent state judges, they would be out of business. Federal courts are much more favorable to defendant's legal arguments.

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  45. 2004 SWL grad sums it up well and I agree with what he said, for the most part. As a bottom of the class 4th tier graduate, after getting experience and learning the game, I opened up my own Plaintiffs PI practice. That was 10 yeas ago. Yeah the game has changed and with insurance companies offering less and even with Allsnake and Shit Farm willing litigate everything, money can be made. The crappy cases pay the bills and the good cases you see on occasion make you rich. We dont have clients taking off neck braces after they settle at mediation. Such comments feed in to the stereotype the insurance industry want the public to believe.

    AS for the PLaintiffs lawyers having poor analytical skills, in general the Plaintiffs lawyers are the smartest and hardest working and that is why we get rich. Any schmuck can get an insurance defense job, file cookie cutter answers and Discovery, and shine their shoes the weekend before trial and cross examine an uneducated plaintiff and their doc who prefers not to be there, all while arguing not the law but peoples emotions and biases. Plus if you lose you still get paid. Ask any lawyer and they will say its harder to try a case from the plaintiffs side. Most lawyers I know that switch sides go from defense work to plaintiffs. Plaintiffs attorneys who switch to defense usually failed as Plaintiffs lawyers. The good ones dont switch.

    Overall though your experience is pretty accurate when it comes to those of us who graduate from lower tier schools. While no doubt the market has gotten worse and I would be a lot more scared to open up my own shop now, money can still be made. Ive seen new guys do it, most of which went to a crappy law school like I did. Its the kids who graduate higher in the class or from a better law school that wait for the perfect offer and then get biiter when it does not come.

    While your debt is stressful, you will pay it off pretty quick, and will earn more then enough to justify your hard work. It is this hard work which creates success that makes people go to lower tier law schools. The best lawyers I know are the hard working ones who are smart, but cant get into a top school for whatever reason. Because you cant take an LSAT well does not mean you cant be a great lawyer. Stories like yours and mine are reasons why these seats get filled year to year. Success does not come without sacrifice.

    As for FerNando, am I correct to assume because you didnt have a job lined up at graduation, you chose not to take the bar? That is messed up. Surely you do not expect the perfect job just to be given to you when you graduated from third tier toilet law. Scholarship or not, who wastes three years of earning to get a degree they have no desire to use? I am guessing that you have no motivation at all to be a lawyer and use the overall job market and costs of schools etc to justify your lack of desire to see if you could make it where so many fail.

    Get in the game.

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  46. Look at the amount of recent grads who went solo and then went belly up. many have pissed their life savings away on this venture. Look at the thousands of unemployed licensd attorneys out there. Their license has really helped them out, hasn't it? Becuase admin does not take the barxam means what exactly? That he is stupid because he doesn't take out thousands more in loans, or quit his job, to pursue a long shot 'where so many others have failed'? Could you quit 'projecting' or at least tell us where you earned your psychology degree? Thx.

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  47. @7:04

    Toilet lawyers like you are the reason why automobile insurance rates have increased 2,000% over the past 20 years. You make money from soft tissue bullshit injuries and become bitter when All State and State Farm make you work the file. People like you are used to sending a demand letter or making a call to see if the insurance adjuster will throw you a bone. Then, when you have to litigate the case, you either drop the client or get no caused by juries that are tired of hearing about drunk "jumpers" and phantom injuries. I have practiced law for almost 20 years. In that span, I have only met one PI lawyer that I would consider a bright attorney. The rest got lucky with a legitimate case (e.g., broken vertebrae, brain dead injury, etc.) and brokered a nice settlement. As for removable casts and neckbraces, I can tell you that in NJ, there was a crackdown a few years ago on "injured" plaintiffs that were investigated and caught on camera after their cases settled. I recall a woman that wore a halo brace to trial and won $1.25 million dollars was caught on camera doing the limbo dance in the Bahamas. PI lawyers are the bottom rung of this profession and it is sad that you are encouraging unsuspecting college students to go to law school just so they can hope upon a star to land the elusive million dollar PI case. I am glad insurance companies are fighting back and that members of society (that comprise jury pools) are cognizant of the scams that are aided by the likes of you. Even the judges are on to PI lawyers by encouraging them to take a "nuissance" settlement at pre-trial conference and avoid a "no cause" embarrassment. People like you are a black eye to the profession and the reason why 2nd, 3rd and 4th tier law schools exist.

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  48. Many people hear about millionaire PI lawyers such as the philandering John Edwards. I guess many law students that attend toilet law schools think they can be the next John Edwards and reap millions. I have heard that John Edwards was a decent trial attorney. I have also heard that Edwards was effective because he used to cry like a domestic violence victim during summation. Juries brought into his tears. Well folks, the cat has been let out of the bag. You think you have what it takes to be the next John Edwards? Trust me, the only tears the juries will see are crocodile ones. PI law was a good racket while it lasted.

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  49. Can someone please point out where this thread went from discussing the pros and cons of spending $74,000 a year for a diploma from ITT Tech, er, Southwestern to talking about some shit-ass attorney/bottom of the class tier 4 grad who irresponsibly encourages others to go into law, under the premise that they too can win a big, important PI case?
    To the shit-ass PI lawyer above: If Allstate abd State Farm are onto the PI scam, how can you encourage prelaw students to take this course of action? I too, have observed that juries and judges are also onto this bullshit scheme. The game is up, kids. Don’t listen to PI douchebags like 7:04 pm. These people practice SHITLAW for a reason.

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  50. 10:03 = Drake Admin

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  51. Drake = Best Law School EverMay 19, 2010 at 6:53 AM

    Drake Rules. It is a great bargain. $150K and 3 years of life lost to learn how to 'think' like a lawyer! You will have even more time to 'think' after graduation, as you will have 9-5 free every day due to your non-employment. Scumbags.

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  52. 2004 SWL Grad here:

    I agree with the above observations that P.I. lawyers. In California at least, for the most part they are a bunch of shysters. I would say 70% of lawsuits involve Plaintiffs suing for their "own negligence". I have a saying for the "evolving duty of care" standard in California, which is a downward spiral to accommodate the "dumb, deaf, and blind". I.e., if you are dumb, deaf, and blind, and walk into a fire pit it's "always someone else's fault". Sue the landlord, the manufacturer of the fire pit, the county and the state. As of lately I have noticed an increase in b.s. "sexual abuse" claims (of course, never with a third party witness), most of them against schools and foster care agencies. Also, the vast majority of Plaintiffs are "illegal immigrants" or low life losers who feed off of welfare, are drugies, and hope to win that their lawsuit will be their "lottery ticket".
    The most ridiculous case I have been involved with involves a business dispute of two former business partners who owned a dingy jewelry store. The Plaintiff "shot himself" and then tried to set up and blame his former business partner. He was subsequently arrested for "conspiracy". California P.I. is a cesspoll. If California declares insolvency I could care less. Their priorities are out of whack. I am all for tort reform, even if it means I have less work, or no work at all. Also I would never vote for a politician who is a lawyer. Not unless he renounces the profession, or has another background which can be viewed as "socially useful". The only thing worse than a P.I. lawyer is maybe someone working in finance or banking. Or a lazy, incompetent government worker.

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  53. How is L.A. in the "Southwest"? If they cannot even get their directional reference straight, how can you actually pay them to teach you law?

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  54. Yes! Tort Reform! We must eliminate one of the small remaining areas where business and industry giants can be held accountable for their crimes and negligence! And to celebrate this 'tort reform', I hope you FOXBOTs buy yourselves a nice Ford Pinto!

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  55. "If it wasn't for California's ultra-liberal state laws and incompetent state judges, they would be out of business."

    Who says liberals are bad for business! LOL.

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  56. Yeah dont listen to the Shitlaw PI lawyers. They are the ones that make all the money. What do they know. Oh wait, you went to law school to represent the poor and disenfranchised not the insurance companies or the limosuine liberals of the corporate world you do help because you think you are special because you got into a top tier school.

    Everyone hates PI lawyers until they are getting screwed by an insurance company. You defense hacks who bid low for the insurance work and do it all on flat fees must love your job. You think you are bright, but you dont have the stones to represent real people. You just file repetitive answers and shine your shoes for trial after showing up for mediation saying my client, the one who has the risk, is not paying.

    There are scams, bad cases, and bad lawyers in every area of practice, so your examples directed at PI lawyers mean nothing, but the defeatist attitude of those that either fail or wont try to me is amazing.

    The law school ponzi scheme is real, and thanks to blogs and the internet, the world is informed. However, someone please tell me why people keep going to law school at crap schools and have to fight for those spaces as well if the chance of doing well so low.

    That guy from SW Law who now makes 92k seems to be a good reason to go. I am guessing he pays off his debts, earns a nice living with a real retirement possible while you year to year 40k a year losers cant spell retirement in 35 years.

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  57. There was a PI attorney who specialized in only representing illegal aliens. He would tell them to pack as many as 8 illegals in a Honda Civic car and collide with either a commercial vehicle, which usually have high policy limits, or expensive luxury cars. He would then settle each claim for $10K or $80K for all of the 8 clients. After the settlement checks cleared in his bank account, he would then call ICE, anonymously of course, and have his clients placed in deportation proceedings. Of course, while in proceedings, the lawyer would tell his clients that the settlement checks had not arrived and that there was bureaucratic red tape preventing the timely disbursement of the monies. Eventually, the clients would get deported. I wonder what happened to all that money? Hmmm, and is it any wonder why PI attorneys are considered the dregs of the legal profession.

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  58. The commenter who argued that "every field is saturated, therefore law school is OK" is a moron.

    If every field is saturated the solution is not to continue wasting society's resources on unneeded legal education (nor excess undergraduate education or professional and graduate education in other fields). Rather it makes more sense to try to reduce the amount of economic waste by reducing the number of law schools and universities.

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  59. Lusty Larrys Toilet ServicesMay 20, 2010 at 6:30 AM

    Larry craig is hiring newly minted GOP JD's in his Toilet.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Hey Nando, do a piece on Barry U in Orlando.

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  61. Lemmings-

    First time takers of the Cali Bar in 2009 from Southwestern had a 63% pass rate. These people are probably most (if not all) from the class of 2009. 37% failed the bar and found out 4 months after graduation. Southwestern's job's report claims 97% percent employment and only 4 of the 265 reporting were "unemployed" 9 months out. To believe this report is accurate you would have to believe that despite the fact that more than 1/3 of the class FAILED the bar, the got paid legal work, around $50K or so, in this economy.

    Law schools cant jimmy bar passage stats. Those are REAL. Law school stats. Jury is still out?

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  62. This article is a joke for a lot of reasons. One of them being that going to Southwestern will leave you broke with little job opportunities. This could not be farther from the truth. There are a lot of SW grads that are very successful in big, small, and their own firms. It does not matter if you graduated from SW or USC - it depends on how hard you work, how you present yourself and many other factors that have little to do with LS Rankings. How do I know this? I work for one of the top firms in LA and have a very strong relationship with our founding partner. When we hire we look at who your established clients are, your personality type, work ethic, etc... We have turned down (and accepted) grads from Ivy League schools, top ranked schools, and even tier 3 Southwestern! Like I said before, it matters how focused and determined an individual is more than an arbitrary ranking system.

    The author of this article clearly has no idea what real world employers are looking for when it comes to hiring lawyers.

    Think about it - if you were going to hire a lawyer for $100k/yr, would you go with the Ivy League grad who doesn't have any clients, works 40hrs/week and has little networking skills? Or a grad from SW, with established clients, good social skills and works 60hrs/week?

    The reality is most firms would want the SW grad, as that prospect presents a much more valuable employee, bringing in business and billing more hours... which at the end of the day is all that matters.

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  63. I agree that the author of this article is full of sh**. As a law student, I personally know at least 20 new law graduates from second, third, and fourth tier schools. They are all employed by firms of all sizes (small, med, and large). Of them, the lowest salary is around $50k.

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  64. To the idiot above, i.e. anonymous who posted on May 29, 2010 5:22 pm:

    And because you (allegedly) personally know at least 20 new law grads from second, third and fourth tier toilets, that means that the U.S. lawyer job market is NOT over-saturated, right?!?! If that is your logic, then you need to ask your law school for a refund - as your education has obviously failed you. There are JDs from top ten law schools who are unemployed right now. Care to explain this situation? Maybe you could employ more of your “piercing” analysis.

    How many of your law graduate friends took out $130K in non-dischargeable debt to land their supposed $50K job?! You see where FinAid recommends that you take out no more - in total student debt - than your expected starting salary? I provided the link in an earlier comment. Perhaps, you might try reading that and looking up the link.

    Next time, look at the facts objectively - and not lash out with the uninformed, knee-jerk reactions of a kid who is INTENT on going to law school regardless of the facts. This site is about REALITY. If this offends your sensibilities, then maybe you should not visit the site. You are free to ignore the facts, but don't say you weren't warned. Moron.

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  65. What is better: free ride at Southwestern and Law Review membership, or transferring to Loyola after the first year?

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  66. I agree that the author of this article is completely jaded and fails to see that hard working, dedicated, aggressive people can succeed.

    I'm a 2009 SW graduate, who moved to NYC. No one has heard of SW before in the East Coast. Passed the bar the first time. Worked contract attorney jobs, and applied to at least 1,000 others for about a year and a half before I found the job that was the right fit for me. Now I'm in-house counsel, doing commercial insurance work, and make a decent salary.

    The cliche is very true: perseverance pays off.

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  67. Its all the matter of how you do in school and how you apply yourself. Yes the top schools are better, but that doesn't mean you can't land a good job at a top firm by going to a lower tier school. Do your research... Moot court competition, law review, and top 10 percent helps. Also look at how many big firms recruit at the particular school if that's where you want to go. This can be done via this website link..

    http://www.nalp.org/

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  68. http://www.nalplawschoolsonline.org/ndlsdir_search_results.asp

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  69. Can I ask what the author is doing with their life since they hate law school so much?

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  70. There are many more factors to consider beyond median salaries and rapidity of placement. SW has an intensive entertainment track, which is why my son is going there. He has no intention of being a practicing attorney, but he sees the value of a legal education if he goes into production and distribution: contracts, negotiations, intellectual property--all are invaluable in entertainment. He has already (only 2 weeks in!) made networking contacts with industry executives and producers: SW has a strong alumni commitment base.

    Plus he is surrounded by other students with similar passions and goals. His legal degree will be only one piece of the puzzle in constructing a successful career. And he has maximized connections in other ways. He is a UCLA graduate and attended summer USC entertainment programs; both let to valuable contacts.

    Something which may only appeal to certain students is the technology at SW. My son is an avid tech geek and the infrastructure at SW is excellent. The moot courtroom has been acknowledged as the most technologically advanced court environment in the country and is often rented out for actual court proceedings.

    Certainly top-tier schools heavily influence placement and salaries for practicing attorneys. But there are a lot of reasons to go to law school and a lot of considerations in choosing the best school for your purposes.

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  71. To the inquiring small mind who posted August 24, 2012 at 11:12 am,

    I have a full-time, non-legal job. I landed this position about two months after graduating from Third Tier Drake. This was due to my efforts, and the law degree did nothing to help me find work. In fact, it made me "overqualified" for many non-law positions. Right now, I am fixing up my house - and my wife is due with a baby boy in December.

    @11:42 am,

    You are one poor, misguided fool. When your son incurs an additional $150K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt for a law degree from this trash pit, let me know how proud you are then. In the final analysis, everything boils down to economics. Try supporting a wife and kids - with such monstrous student debt levels coupled with paltry salary.

    By the way, no one gives a damn about moot court. Hell, even tenured "law professors" and those in clinical programs refer to it as Fake Court. Firms and government agencies are generally not impressed with such nonsense.

    http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/grad-debt-rankings

    Lastly, take a look at the Average Law School Indebtedness chart, compiled and published by US "News" & World Report. For those members of the $ouTTTwe$TTTern Law Sewer Class of 2011 who incurred debt for law school, this figure is listed as $142,606. Fully 80 percent of this trash pit’s 2011 class took on such toxic debt. Remember that these figures do not include interest that accrues on the outstanding balance, while the student is enrolled.

    http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings/page+6

    As you can see, this commode is still in the third tier of U.S. law schools. What an accomplishment, huh?!?! Southwestern Law School is currently ranked as the 129th greatest, most fantastic law school in the United States! In fact, it shares this rating with five other garbage heaps.

    Your son wants to work in the entertainment industry, and he is attending a California TTT?!?! Unless he significantly improves his blow job skills while in law school, he will be sorely in need of work. Perhaps, he takes after you and already has great talent in this area, Dumbass.

    ReplyDelete
  72. This site is accurate to my experience of Southwestern Law School. It is crap. What you should check and post for potential students is the attrition rates at Southwestern. I attended the 1L in 2010 and was asked to leave for maintaining only a C+ average. I knew many of people in my 1L who either dropped the 1st semester or was asked to leave in the second. What's fucked up is that the school classifies all of these as voluntary drops so they don't have to take blame for kicking out the bottom 20% or so to make room for the next overlarge and overripe rip of a class. If I was told the bottom 2% were going to be ushered out after the 1st year I might have thought long and hard about whether the $75,000 was truly worth it.

    ReplyDelete
  73. I like the resources which you mention in your blog but there are more resources which you can use. I hope in you next article you include these resources too.
    Chicago Ambient Warehouse

    ReplyDelete

 
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