Sunday, June 27, 2010

Fourth Tier Trash Can: St. Thomas University School of Law

Today, we make a brief stop in crime-infested Miami Gardens to take a look at St. Thomas University School of Law – NOT to be confused with this festering pile of crap, i.e. the University of St. Thomas School of Law, based out of St. Paul, Minnesota. I understand the confusion. Both are overpriced Catholic commodes of law; the school colors for both are purple and white; and both institutions place special emphasis on diversity and “public service”. However, the main differences are geography, and the fact that UST is a TTT, and not a TTTT.

Tuition: A full-time student at this truly prestigious law school will be charged $33,082 in tuition and fees for the 2010-2011 academic year. But hey, who wouldn’t mind making the daily grinding commute from Davie, Fort Lauderdale or Coral Gables to attend this fine, upstanding “institution of higher learning”, right?!

“Our team won 2 of their 3 oral argument rounds and just missed advancing to the round of 16 by fractions of a point. Although the near-miss was disappointing, the two competitors, the student-coach, our faculty advisor, the second research assistant, and I were very excited to have achieved success in the competition, and were grateful for the opportunity to compete! Our participation in this prestigious national championship competition for the first time does wonders to enhance the reputation of our school!”

Congratulations on your hard work and dedication leading to your Moot Court team just missing the round of 16. Your parents must be very proud. All your effort sure paid off – just like it will when you are looking for work after graduation. Also, when does getting bounced out in the round of 32 of a regional Moot Court competition enhance the reputation of a law school?!?!

At least, this student blog actually allows comments from viewers. That is better than the diploma mills at Drake and Michigan State can offer. I am still trying to figure out why the student author of this entry is THRILLED that the toilet of law’s Moot Court team *barely* missed the round of 16 by “fractions of a point.” Make sure to comment on her post, and ask her if she is still excited by this close finish. See if this competition has helped with her job search.

Ranking: Okay, so the cost of tuition may be a little high. Surely, the school’s reputation will make up for this, right?! What’s that you say? The law school is ranked in the fourth tier?!

Employment and Starting Salary Figures: This is the extent of the placement and salary info, i.e. links to the following areas: Simplicity, Career Counseling, How to Draft Resumes and Cover Letter, Career Tips and Timelines, OCI Programs, Alternative Careers, Judicial Clerkships, Survey Forms, NALP “Principles and Standards”, Externships, STU Clinics and Judicial Internships, and something called the Professional Organization Resource List.

Does “Career Counseling” mean that Career Services will coach you on how to “network”, smile and attend pointless law school mixers with broke-ass local toiletlawyers – who are there for the free booze, cheese and crackers? Does “Alternative Careers” include a “workshop” on how to fill out Wal-Mart’s computer screen job application – or how to properly serve a mojito at the Miami hot-spots?!

Actually, here is what I found when I clicked on the link to Alternative Careers:

“Read the well-known book “What Can You Do with a Law Degree” by Deborah Aaron (available in the CSO library). Aaron’s book will familiarize you with approaches for seeking and obtaining a nontraditional legal job.”

Yes, stellar career advice!! You know what else you can do with a law degree? You can wipe your ass with it – ESPECIALLY if it came from a fourth tier trash can!!

“At St. Thomas University School of Law, we are grounded in the Catholic traditions of service, social justice, and ethical behavior. Our steadfast commitment to services is manifested in all we do, including our Pro Bono program, one of only a handful of such programs in the country.”

[Read: We are also proud to charge $33,082 in tuition and fees per year. Now, give me your wallet!]

Conclusion: This school is a steaming pile of cockroach dung. This commode charges its students $33,082 for one single year of TTTT education – and it can’t be bothered to provide basic consumer information on its site?!?! As we have noted before, the Florida legal market is swamped. There are 11 law schools in the state. And you think attending this toilet will increase your earning potential?!?! In actuality, it WILL simply increase your level of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt. After all, one could rack up in excess of $155K by attending this trash pit.


  1. You have to be insane to go to these schools. Already going to a "top law school" is generally a stupid idea considering that they seem to be cooking the books to an astonishing degree.

    Guys, can you learn to 'just say no'?

  2. Do ... they ... have ... a ... fax ... machine?

  3. This school's CSO strategy is simple:

    "Network, and if that doesn't work, network harder, and if you still can't find a job, try a non-traditional legal career."

  4. Do they offer a course on how to make strawberry mojitos?

  5. Click to see how I quit my last non-traditional legal job. Thanks, career services.

  6. Trickle down economics at its finest!

    We take the tax payer's, I mean, your money and in exchange we give you the chance to take a state bar exam and call yourself a laywer.


  7. What can you do with a law degree? Practice law. Kinda, except law school prepares one woefully for that. Beware you inexperienced solos-to-be: the "discipline" section of your State's Bar Journal is rife with examples of what awaits the unwary attempted/novice solo practitioner. State Bar Associations exist to shill for the firms and generally make life as miserable as possible for the little guy. If you insist on law school, (unless you are well-connected or are independently wealthy), you MUST, MUST drop out if your lst year grades are less than outstanding. Period. Do not think, absent such grades, you will somehow eke it out otherwise (except for the above-noted caveats).

    Remember as well that non-law employers not only have no use for a JD, they loathe them, and will consider you HIGHLY SUSPECT for not "wanting" to practice law, which, by them, is believed to still be a lucrative profession.

    0L's, you have thus been warned.

    Good job, Nando, on exposing yet another of these conscienceless trash heaps masquerading as professionsl schools.

  8. Just to beat any naysayers to the punch,

    You don't know what you're talking about! This school is awesome to the tenth power!!!! FUCK YOU!!!!*

    *just kidding, above comment dripping with sarcasm, but someone reading will actually agree with the above statement the fiercest sincerity.

  9. @6:24PM

    The cards are heavily stacked against any recent grad wanting to go solo. The local bar associations only cater to the big firms and the solo is left in the cold. For example, in New Jersey, virtual offices were recently ruled as "unethical" meaning if you are going to be a solo, you have to actually rent a brick and mortar office. Also, in NJ, law firms with over 25 attorneys are not subject to random audits of trust accounts. Only the small fries get audited. Every week in the law journal I read about a recent law grad who got suspended or reprimanded for minute reasons. Practicing law as a solo if you are a recent grad is like walking a minefield in Vietnam. You may actually have a better chance of surviving the minefield than practicing as a solo with a six figure student loan debt noose tied around your neck.

  10. This post is directed at the individual who comments on this blog under the name “Tyson”:

    “Apparently you know everything! Everything except the fact that many, many prosecutors actually have their own separate law practices in addition to their prosecutorial duties!” – Tyson, Thursday, June 24th

    On Friday, June 25th Above the Law ran a feature on the Marin County District Attorney’s Office seeking new full-time prosecutors…

    Good news for the legal job market, right Tyson!? But there’s a catch. These full-time positions are unpaid (meaning no salary, no benefits, $0 / hr).

    Oh, then there’s also this little gem towards the end of the job posting:

    “Due to budgetary constraints, the Marin County District Attorney’s Office is unable to hire successful applicants at the conclusion of their uncompensated term. Successful applicants may not engage in the practice of law outside of the office during their uncompensated term.”

    “Recent law grads are mistaken if they consider themselves "employees." That's how McDonald's think of themselves.” – Tyson, Thursday, June 24th

    You’re right Tyson. Lawyers shouldn’t think of themselves as “employees.” Employees—even at McDonald’s—are compensated for their services. Tyson, you have no idea what you are talking about.


    2010 graduate who: went to a TTTT on a full ride; busted his ass at school while working two jobs on the side; served as an editor on law review; graduated top 2% in his class; is unemployed w/o ANY opportunity in sight; and is moving into his parents’ basement.

    Go to law school Tyson (i.e., go fuck yourself).

  11. Hi Nando.

    I thought you should know that I visit your site often, as well as those of your colleagues. Most of them are insightful in their own way, while a few in your blogroll are just plain weird.

    I am relieved to know that there is a movement to help potential students make an informed decision about attending law school and to expose the deceptive tactics a lot of law schools make to attract students. And it is relieving to know that I am not the only one going through difficult times.

    I think all of you have already made a difference by making your message clear - attending law school, especially a non T14 is a serious risk with crushing consequences. Even your detractors are warning potential law students about the risks involved.

    I hope that your message will spread and that the ABA and the US News ranking staff will do something to force law schools to reduce tuition and help secure meaningful jobs for their graduates.

    The problem I see now is that not a lot of students realize the magnitude of the student loan payments. You mention on several posts that tuition costs $35K with with average living expenses making one year of law school potentially costing $50K per year. This means that three years of law school will cost without interest $150K. With interest being capitalized, that can be anywhere from $170K to $190K. I didn't realize the magnitude of interest capitalization until my first student loan bill came in. Now that I am dutifully making my student loan payments, it is almost impossible for me to take any risks now.

    There are so many disgruntled young attorneys out there and the lax standards of law schools - and probably state bar associations - have resulted in admitting people who I think are somewhat mentally unstable.

    Consider this - a young law school graduate with $180K - $220K in nondischargeable student loan debt. Never finds work, his credit is shot, and has to perform ethically questionable work to make ends meet. He gets in trouble with the state bar and the disciplinary decision is posted on the web site for all potential employers and clients to see - pretty much blacklisting him. I sometimes wonder what this person is likely to do. Some will pursue another profession and hope that the disciplinary action will not follow them. Others will commit suicide. And others will go insane and may go postal - these are the people I am concerned about.

    You see Nando, for some being unemployed is just the beginning of their troubles. I have heard of recent law school graduates who got in trouble with the State Bar because they got involved in the loan modification schemes. These grads got duped by non-attorney shysters who promised them a ton of money because of the high interest in loan mod and foreclosure defense work. However, it turned out that the shysters were only interested in using the young attorney's license to get around the "payment after services are completed" rule enacted in many states. I have more stories, but basically it is downright scary out there knowing that some assholes will take advantage of young, naive, idealistic and financially desperate graduates.


  12. (continued)

    To be honest, I don't think that the ABA or any government agency will do anything about this until there is some kind of tragedy.

    Unfortunately, I also wanted to tell you that I can no longer visit your blog on a regular basis. As a young attorney, your message is not relevant to me. I made my bed and now I must lie in it. In my case, your detractors are right - I should spend more time developing my practice. Like your predecessor Loyola 2L, I have to move on. But I probably speak for many of the lurkers here when I say you and most of your group are fighting the good fight. Before I leave, I have to tell you that you are doing an excellent job.

    I hope you and your group accomplish everything you set out to do with your blogs. But I also hope that one of you will take this fight to the next level by forcing a debate with the ABA, the State Bars, US News and any government agencies that can deal with the current problem. But to do this, someone will one day have to expose his or her identity. I understand it is difficult to do because of potential retribution from powerful forces. However, the movement will one day need a face - and I think he or she will eventually be viewed as a hero. Unfortunately, I cannot be that person.

    I'll check up again from time to time. Best of luck.

  13. At some point the burden has to fall on the BUYERS (law students) and not the sellers (the law schools.) It's no secret anymore than taking on over 100k in debt from a TTT(T) is going to wreck your future.

    Yes, the schools are wrong to be charging these amounts but how can you blame them when students keep paying?!

  14. Hello Cockroach. I see that you live near South Side Park in Pittsburgh, PA.

    Now, Doug is emailing me. Well-adjusted, isn't he? He has also made 25 visits to this blog in the last eight days - for a total of 63 actions. Yes, he must have a lot going on in his life, huh? Maybe, you should devote more time to investigating who your wife is sleeping with, at work. That would be a much better allocation of your time.

    Doug, if you have a cogent argument as to why law school is a good investment of one's time, energy and money, you can post here. If not, then take comfort in knowing that *you* are making a "brilliant" decision in attending a second-tier law school - for intellectual stimulation, of course. Move on with your life, loser.

    We are being practical. Filing suit would be a waste of one’s time, energy and money. Also, how can you file suit, idiot, when you ADMIT that you know the employment and salary figures are distorted – and yet you are choosing to enroll at a second tier sewer, anyway?

    @7:12, students are enrolling in these schools because of the false employment and salary statistics published by the law school industry. The graduates are already paying for this mistake – and will continue to do so – for the next 25-30 years. Why should these festering toilets be let off the hook? Many of the students are desperate, as they realize their four-year degree qualifies them to work at Kinko’s, Jiffy Lube or at the local pizza joint. The schools are feeding off of this desperation/anxiety – and the federally-backed, non-dischargeable student loan system. How does that sit with your sense of morality, 7:12?!

  15. Trash cans, toilets, dung piles are what these law schools and JD's are.

  16. I like how nando has developed an approach to treating the trolls as they deserve to be treated. I absolutely love it! If these people have proven themselves to be complete and utter pieces of shit, they should be treated as such. Yes, that decidedly includes you, Doug.

    Pitt Law ’04 (left law in March 2008 for a better paying and more rewarding career)

  17. Nando--I'm on your side. I also think that at this point the students taking out these massive loans are not blameless. Thanks to your blog and many others, a prospective law student should know exactly what they are getting into.

    Yes, people like the "Valvoline Dean" and other administrators that continue to fudge numbers must be held accountable, but people also have to stop being marks for these scams.

  18. 8:57, I apologize for my earlier tone. I still stand by what I said about the other commenter. (He apparently thinks that he can successfully sue the law schools for fraud – even though he is aware of said fraud beforehand.) He has been aware of this scam for months, but yet he still intends to attend a toilet.

    These blogs are simply providing a more balanced, accurate view on the state of the legal industry. At this point in time, most prospective law students SHOULD be aware of the scam. However, whenever we provide charts, graphs, economic analyses, and statements from the industry showing that it is foolish to attend law school in light of the shrinking job market, we are sometimes met with angry, hostile remarks from lemmings. Too many are willing marks for this scheme.

    I laugh when these hostile pre-law students attack us for not “making it”. This category of “failure” is increasingly made up of law review students and those who were very active in student organizations. The lemmings seek to tear down those who came before them, in order to further convince themselves that THEY will make it. In the final analysis, such haughty arrogance is borne of the following: lack of knowledge about how the real world operates; false hope; distorted perceptions; and willful ignorance.

    Instead of directing their anger at the institutions that are charging $35K a year in tuition – and financially ruining legions of law students every year – these lemmings attack us personally. For these people, I agree that when they graduate with no job to show for it, they will have ONLY themselves to blame. Although, we must also remember that there are still several prospective law students who may not have Internet access at home, and are therefore still relying on the data put out by the industry. I do not assign too much blame on them. Should these students not have at least some assurance that these “professional schools” are operating under good faith?

    To the dense lemmings who would rather rely on optimistic forecasts by self-interested “law professors” and fellow know-nothing lemmings, who would you ask to look at your car: a certified auto mechanic with 10 years’ experience or someone who has never worked on cars?

  19. "These blogs are simply providing a more BALANCED..."


    Thanks for the ab workout, Nancy!

  20. If these retards want to go to law school, why are you guys trying to talk them out of it again? Let the mentally diminished 0Ls fall on their face.

  21. Dear Nando, will you now turn your guns on Florida Coastal and Ave Maria before departing our fair Sunshine State?

  22. What would make a huge difference in the fight is if Nando's site appeared at the top of a Google search for one of these schools. Perhaps that's already started happening.

    Search engines are supposed to provide relevant information to search queries. And there's nothing more relevant than this site. Certainly, you'll get more info about what law school and the legal market are really like from this blog than from a school's website.

  23. Look at this entry. Reads like it was put out by the law school.

    “St. Thomas University School of Law is fully accredited by the American Bar Association and is a member of the Association of American Law Schools. The School of Law is located on the main campus of St. Thomas University in Miami, Florida. The School of Law was founded in 1984 and includes a multi-level library, a moot court amphitheater, faculty and administrative offices, a computer lab, and classrooms and offices for student organizations. The architectural combination of the law school buildings and breezeway provides a comfortable setting for the study of law, including an outdoor classroom that is usable virtually year-round.”


    The school's purported "Fact Facts" page:

    Did you know that…

     STU School of Law ranked #5 in two categories in The Princeton Review's Best 174 Law Schools: Best Environment for Minority Students and Most Competitive Students (2010 edition).
     The Law School is ranked #3 for Best Environment for Minority Students in The Princeton Review's Best 174 Law Schools (2009 edition).

    Who gives a damn? Did this help one single STU law grad land a nice-paying job, upon graduation?

     Our Joint Degree programs include not only the traditional J.D./M.B.A. but also a J.D./M.A. in Marriage and Family Counseling and J.D./M.S. and J.D./M.B.A. in Sports Administration.”

    Yes, I’m sure this TTTT law degree will pay off, if one only combines it with a TTTT M.A. in Marriage and Family Counseling. And watch the employers climb over each other to hire an STU JD who is also armed with an MBA in Sports Administration!!

     We place such a high value on professional integrity that every course taught at the St. Thomas University School of Law includes an ethics component.

    Wow! Talk about a beacon of integrity and morality, right?! Wait a minute – isn’t this Catholic school a fourth tier toilet that charges its students $33,082 in tuition and fees for the upcoming school year?!?!

     We value our environment as a small university for the sense of lasting community, teamwork and common goals it offers as well as friendships that last a lifetime.
     Miami, home of St. Thomas University School of Law, is not only an international gateway to Latin America and the Caribbean, but also is a center of global commercial, financial and cultural activity, making it a well-suited laboratory for our international programs, including our LL.M. and J.S.D. tracks in Intercultural Human Rights.

    Yes, because we all know that “international law firms” and the U.S. State Department will be killing themselves to hire graduates of the $TTTT. TTTThoma$ UNiver$iTTTTy $chool of Law, right?! (Just like Salma Hayek committed 24 traffic violations to come over to my place last night.)

  25. So what do these TTTT schools spend all that tuition money on? $33k per student is outrageous. It isn't like Alan Dershowitz is lecturing here. Where does all this money go?

  26. Nando,

    You are clueless. I work in a huge building (which will remain unnamed) that hires ALL KINDS of people. Attorneys, Non-Attorneys, skilled, unskilled, etc. It is a huge building, but there are many MANY more just like it ALL across the country. And basically, a person would be AMAZED at the number of people in this country paid $40-50k / year to sit in cubicles and to be absolutely USELESS!

    So if you think that new attorneys, who have comparatively very good work ethic compared to the general public, can't get hired for $40-50 / yr minimum...then you are OUT OF YOUR MIND!!!!

    And you're flat wrong.

  27. Tyson,

    Are you a lawyer, law student, future law student? If so, what school? If not, are you an industry shill? I'm interested as to what draws you to this site. What is your incentive in posting your misinformed nonsense?


  28. "...if you think that new attorneys, who have comparatively very good work ethic compared to the general public, can't get hired for $40-50 / yr minimum...then you are OUT OF YOUR MIND!!!!"

    This argument assumes there exists enough paid legal work to pay every new attorney that kind of salary. That would be a very faulty assumption.

    Although, one could always do what I did after law school. I hired myself for a fat six-figure salary. For the time being, I'm paying myself with IOU's written on Taco Bell napkins. It's the best of both worlds -- I can say I'm a lawyer earning a six-figure salary, AND I avoid the unbearable disgrace of being an "employee." WAY too many lawyers fall into the "employee" trap, IMHO.

  29. I feel your pain at being a legal failure but I think you may be taking your bitterness to disturbing lengths. This blog is indicative of a mental problem. You went to a law school in the middle of a cornfield in Iowa, stop trying to link your horrible experience to others. You should really seek professional help.

  30. Why do people keep being so sceptical about Tyson? As the man says he works in a huge BUILDING. Can you even pretend to claim to work in a building? Let alone one like Tyson's which is MASSIVE. Not only that but he has the KNOWLEDGE of many more buildings all around the country. Should you add up all your stats about law school faking employment NUMBERS it will still be less - oh YES it will be less! - then the total amount off buildings in the world. This is called factual pwnage WHICH not just proves Tyson's superior reasoning skills, but rather the fact that he KNOWS everyone in those buildings proves him to be a much better networker then anyone alive or dead. Respect the BUILDING!

  31. Tyson, thanks for further displaying your TOTAL lack of knowledge on the state of U.S. legal job market. You have shown yourself to be completely oblivious to the facts, and impervious to reason. Apparently, all you can do is to issue unfounded pronouncements. Try backing up your charges with some actual facts. I, and the other scam-busters, have done the research, furnished analysis, and provided proof to back up our arguments. What have you done, other than cry, “You are clueless. And you’re flat wrong”?

    When there are too many graduates for the available number of positions, it becomes an employer’s market. That would explain why even toiletlaw and public interest firms are now able to hire T14 grads and those who were on law review. Are you being deliberately difficult, or are you truly this dense, Tyson?

    Look at this comment from a 2005 law grad:

    “The legal market has been bad for at least the last decade. I graduated in 2005 and it was terrible then, even while the larger economy was in boom. It is only now that people are starting to take notice, because of the recession. The recession has caused the situation to worsen to the point that the elite law schools and elite graduates are now themselves threatened. A return to “normal” in 3 years might be fine for the elite students at the top of their classes or from elite schools, but normal will still be very rough on your average grad from your average school.

    However, the old ways may never return. The recession has forced biglaw clients to become more cost conscious, and this has included a refusal to pay for first year associates. Such changes could change the employment landscape during and after the recession. As the number of lucrative biglaw jobs shrink, expect the elite graduates to begin taking the previously less desired jobs, pushing the average grads further down the ladder.”


    The number of blogs documenting the law school cartel is indicative of a gross oversupply of lawyers and JDs in this country. Would you care to make the argument that there are not too many law schools? Would you contend that these diploma mills do not pump out too many JDs each year? Good luck with that – as even the industry notes that law grads should lower their expectations. Law professors and industry insiders have noted that law school is a bad investment for the majority of law students.

    “This dismal situation was not created by the current recession—which merely spread the pain up the chain into the lower reaches of elite schools. This has been going on for years.”

  32. Kids, the situation is worse than you think. Last week, a non-attorney who was engaged in a foreclosure rescue scam was indicted. Here is the FBI announcement:

    What the announcment doesn't say is that many folks like the indicted scammer, recruit unsuspecting young lawyers to get around the "unauthorized practice of law" roadblock and instruct the lawyers to do illegal things (i.e., file baseless Chapter 11 and 13 bankruptcies to buy time, etc.). The young lawyer, whose back is against the wall (thanks to Sallie Mae) will ultimately lose his/her license to practice law just to wet his/her beak while the big whale scammer gets a huge size of the prize/fees. This is something that I am starting to see more and more on the legal frontlines. It's a shame that kids are going to law school, becoming heavily indebted and then becoming pawns of illegal enterprises that will later subject them to criminal and disciplinary proceedings. I am sure for the $150K you dropped at your alma mater law school, you can call the good ole dean for a character reference and maybe even have him/her testify on your behalf before you do the penguin shuffle in an orange jumpsuit and stainless steel wrist/ankle bracelets. At least a prison term will buy you a reprieve from Sallie Mae (although interest will accumulate while you serve in the clink). Are these the wonderful opportunities that Tyson alludes to?

  33. There is so much drivel on here, I can't even rebut it all! To the blogger who asks if I am an industry shill...NO...but so what if I was! What does that have to do with my substantive arguments?

    There is not enough legal work???????????????? B.S. Are you serious!? The legal work is endless! WORST CASE: Go to court house. Get appointments. The numbers of cases are MIND BLOWING!! You will make a minimum of $35k, and that's if you DON'T try.

    Malpractice and bar suspension? Yeah, if you are on drugs and miss filing deadlines, blatantly lie, and sell plea deals for $10,000 bribes. Obviously you want at least a good year of experience before you try it on your own, but hey, get an internship and LEARN!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Oh, I forgot, to get employment you need "connections." Waaaaaaaaaaaaah....I have to go meet people. Waaaaaaaah. I have to actually prove myself before they will take a chance on me. Waaaaaaah. A $200k / yr job didn't fall into my lap for doing nothing. Waaaaaaaaaaaaah. I have to work. Waaaaaaaaaaah. Instead of playing student, I have to actually be accountable at a real job now. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!!!!!!!!

    Even if everything you said happen to be true, guess what? It's call the FREE MARKET! GET OVER IT!!!

  34. Btw, 11:16am, you can substitute from my post at 8/29 8:25pm of "big building" with "big entity," since you got so easily distracted. I would love to tell you what the entity was, but I refuse. Despite that distraction, my point overall was that SO many little cubicle jobs exist ALL over America that pay $40-50k. Many of these people do JACK!! I see it every day and have seen it for a couple years now. So basically, if you think, long-term, that an attorney, MOST of who work VERY hard and work VERY smart, won't draw in $50k / yr for being able to solve bitter and contested issues, you are sadly mistaken my friend. Society will forever cough up money dearly to have very smart people work very hard on behalf of their own interests, especially where they cannot for themselves - and in some cases, even when they can...and YES, that is a platitude, forcefully stated too!!!

    Recession or not, there will always be tons of people with money out there who are ALWAYS in a state of dispute with others who also have money.

  35. June 29, 8:35pm. Why don't you get Nando to tell us, Mr. "Everyone." Nando seems to know where everyone lives, sleeps, and works. You seem to want to listen to him more anyway!

  36. Huge corporate interests will obviously eat up the T14 grads. That only leaves the REST of the lawyers for those who are NOT a huge corporate interest!!!!!!

    ...That is, unless you go to law school in the middle of a cornfield like Iowa. In that case, you might be lucky to litigate a case between two stalks of corn that knocked each other over and want to sue.

  37. Tyson,

    Have you seen how many of the appointment panels are closed? Do you believe you can get ad-hoc appointments by showing up at the court house and asking? That is extremely naive imo

    How can someone afford to volunteer and learn if they have to make loan payments of $1000 and up.

    You are correct that the market is determining the difficulty in landing entry level jobs? So? Tell us something we don't know.

    These blogs are about warning people that suffer from indoctrination-based delusion. Law schools and those profiting from education (bar prep, etc) put out a LOT of marketing geared towards playing off the indoctrination, unsure college grads, and type A personalities.

    THAT is what these blogs are up against. Picking a fight the way you are is akin to telling a kid who is bullied daily to get tough. You come across weird, cruel, insensitive, and self-hating.

    You obviously like posting on these blogs. I just cannot figure out why other than to talk to yourself and pick fights for the sake of picking fights.

    Just my two cents....

  38. Nando and Tyson both have a point.

    Nando is right that the Great Recession sucks, law schools are deceptive, that few will enter and succeed at Big Law and that acquiring big debt to attend a TTT is very risky.

    Tyson is fundamentally right about everything else. You have just entered a profession where entry jobs are tough and low paying but where practitioners who are good businesspeople can make $200+ a year for reasonable work effort and never have to answer to a boss. I am referring to non-BigLaw ("toilet law" in your nomenclature) attorneys. Don't quote me statistics. Statistics don't capture who is good business person and most lawyers are just employee lawyers anyway, which brings down the numbers. It comes down to being positive, friendly, organized, returning phone calls, a marketing plan,sales skills and cultivating a good reputation. Writing a good brief is a very distant second. If you could suceed as a retail, real estate or car salesman, you'll excel as a lawyer. The sky's the limit if you actually know how to write a brief as well. The skills that kindergarted taught you, and law school killed, are the keys to success. Unfortunately most lawyers I know couldn't sell a car if their life depended on it and are lucky to have the $50-100 employee job that their degree "entitles" them to; that other shitty salesmen without a law degree aren't "entitled" to.

    So kudos to Nando for warning about the risks and deception, and kudos to Tyson for telling poeple who are in this situation to make the most of something potentially very valuable.

    Incidently, there should be a place where they teach you how to practice law. Law school (whether Yale or TTT) wastes your time with socratic bullshit and teaches you nothing, but gives you a piece of paper saying that you're a lawyer. BARBRI actually teaches you the law. Nobody teaches you how to practice law. Someone should start a BARBRI type program teaching new grads, in great detail, how to practice in various practice areas, including marketing, accounting, management, sales, etc. Barbers who finish barber school can cut hair.
    Is it not ridiculous that law grads don't know the first thing about practicing law?

  39. Very good post however again it is very important to do research extensively on the career before investing so much time and effort. It is also important to do a lot of research on top 100 law firm rankings to see what the qualifications are and make sure you meet such requirements to ensure a decent shot at employment.

  40. "few will enter and succeed at Big Law"

    Few will enter and succeed at law PERIOD. That's the problem, not the chimera that everyone wants Big Law, and then falls apart when they don't get it. Law graduates seek law jobs, and many will not ever get one.

  41. What complete and utter nonsense. Fear-mongering at it's lamest. This is nothing more than baseless and bitter vitriol. And for what? You have nothing to gain from this. That's what makes it all the more ridiculous. If you happened to go to a top tier school, good for you. You should be proud. There's no need to bash lower tiered schools in some sophomoric exercise. There are countless successful lawyers emanating from third and fourth tier law schools. It's nonsense to believe that going to one of only eight schools makes the degree and profession worthwhile. You must assume everyone wants to be a U.S. Supreme Court Justice. But even they have not all come from the top eight schools.

  42. Man this is intelligent stuff. Why should anyone go to school? I mean hell, you can earn about as much driving a truck or being a plumber.

    But maybe .. just maybe.. take a moment and should consider how competent you are before taking the law school step. If you can't handle the career, don't get pissed when you can't make it.

    The saying that you can do whatever you want is bullshit, some people are naturally intelligent, some can make it through hard work and dedication, and some need to accept that they are not as capable as their mom always told them. Hey Mr. Angry Blogger.. which one are you?

  43. You can actually make a better living as a plumber than you can as a lawyer. Plus, the plumber has the added benefit of not being tied down with $100K in non-dischargeable student loans.

    Don't forget that plumbers are actually in demand. If you cannot afford an attorney, you generally don't hire one if you have a small dispute with someone. If you have a leak in your basement, you make damn sure that you pay for the services of a plumber. See the difference?!?!

    Plus, if you are reasonably intelligent - this excludes you, 4:37 - you can file a small claims action on your own, i.e. you don't need to hire a lawyer. If you have a small leak, you will probably still go with the plumber - as you might make things worse.

    I feel sorry that this is beyond your reasoning capacities.

    All the knowledge in the world is rather pointless, if you cannot pay your bills. My sister-in-law allegedly has an IQ in the 180s. Guess what? She teaches one course per semester at the University of Phoenix. Her husband is in his last year of dental school. They are looking at more than $300K in combined student debt. They live on Food Stamps and the charity of others.

    Lastly, in this industry, connections and preferences trump intelligence. Law firms want someone who they think will enhance their image. They don't want someone who attended the fourth tier piece of trash known as St. Thomas University School of Law.

  44. I should not have come to STU.

  45. God, get me out of Miami Gardens. Please.

  46. I am fairly certain I will be academically dismissed from STU at the conclusion of this semester.

  47. Thank goodness I never went to law school. I was contemplating it, but now practice the concept of not voting for lawyers who run all 3 branches of government. The (stupid tier 4 law school graduate) lawyers have ruined this country and the only way to fix it is to not vote for lawyers to occupy seats outside of the Judicial Branch in all jurisdictions.

    "Help Save America - Don't Vote for Lawyers!"

  48. I just graduated STU in May 2013. I passed the Florida bar in July. I am now employed as an Assistant Attorney General with the Florida Office of the Attorney General. STU's clinical programs are very good and place students in well respected offices, including the AG, City Attorneys office for Miami, Miami Beach, Hollywood, Hallandale Beach, etc. Through this clinic program, and working my ass off, I was able to eventually get hired back at the Attorney General's office. Granted a lot of people I know don't currently have jobs...

    I also wasn't some stellar student. I was a good worker and one of those people who is a better "lawyer" than a "student." So congrats to all those people who did moot court, mock trial, law review...all that garbage. I didn't do any of it. I had a 2.7 GPA graduating law school and because of the STU clinical program I am now employed in a very prestigious position.

    STU aint that bad.

  49. Just listened to an STU Law Professor commenting on Ferguson riota. The lady is Black. Can't believe STU would employ someone so biased against justice. Then I found this website. Now it makes sense.

  50. ^ You brought back a 1 year old comment thread to rant on how black people feel about police killing unarmed blacks? And to add a casually racist insult to a black professor? Really?

  51. Interestingly, people may still stumble on this blog and read it, like myself. I graduated from St. Thomas 12 years ago. It was then, as it surely is now, a mediocre school in all respects. However, what a blast! Law school in Miami was fantastic. That being said, I studied and passed the Texas bar with a two year old, $12 barbri study book I purchased from a Half-Price book store. Law school was a very expensive piece of paper that provided me little if any preparation for the practice of law. I could have skipped it and spent $12 and obtained the same result if it weren't for the lobbyist that made sure a JD was a mandatory requirement for licensure. Its a simple formula: Get the paper, get the license, and then get it in gear. The employment prospects for a new lawyer are no better yet no worse than any other advanced degree; save except for a degree requiring higher mathematics. I cant do math so I did law. I do agree that full disclosure and preparatory research is a problem for most entering law school. (BTW: I got into first tier schools, but STU paid my way).

  52. My friend dropped out of a 4-T law school after a few months. Then he entered again the next academic year and dropped out again. I asked him the reason. He said his fellow students were scumbags, low class and overall dirt bags. I am curious what other readers of this blog think about his rationale.

  53. He flunked out and stiffed the taxpayers with his student loans.


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