Sunday, June 13, 2010

Noxious Waste Site: Nova Southeastern University Shepard Broad Law Center

Today, we pull over in Fort Lauderdale for a quick restroom break. With your digestive system processing buttery alligator bites – combined with the humidity of South Florida – we might need to let this turd air out for a while.

Tuition: For the 2010-2011 academic year, a full-time law student at Nova Southeastern will pay $30,472 in tuition and fees – for the honor of attending this august institution of higher learning. Part-time law students will only pay $22,978 for the same school year.

Total Cost of Attendance: Using the worst-case scenario, i.e. a single adult living off-campus, the school estimates that living expenses will amount to $22,573 for the upcoming school year. This would bring the total COA – for one single, solitary year of “legal education” – to $53,045! I mean, who wouldn’t take out this amount of money to attend this preeminent law school, right?!

Ranking: Somehow, this school managed to be one of the SEVEN Florida law schools to splash into the murky fourth tier – using the rankings from U.S. News & World Report. Imagine that! Then again, a taco stand with a laptop would have more prestige than this dump.

Employment and Starting Salary Info: The school reports a job placement rate – for the Class of 2008 – of 81.57 percent! Certainly, well worth your pricey investment, huh?!?! The fifth page of this report lists an average starting salary of $59,078 – which is not much more than the total COA for one year at this fine school. Also, note the following:

“Of the 208 graduates who reported being employed, 143 agreed to disclose their salary information. The remaining 65 provided information regarding their employment status, but refused to disclose salary data. The following statistics are compiled from the 143 responses with salary information.”

This means that these figures are based on the 68.75% of respondents who furnished salary info to the school. Maybe the remaining 31.25 percent were making so much money, after graduating from this trash pit, that they were embarrassed to provide their income. Yeah, and maybe Salma Hayek wants me to invite Jessica Alba to our next sleepover.

Also, go to the fourth page, where the school notes that there were 258 members of the 2008 graduating class – of which 255 reported employment status. So these salary figures ONLY take into account those who are employed – the school apparently does not feel that adding 47 unemployed grads to the calculations would benefit the institution.

The third page of this PDF states:

“In recent years, there have been a rising number of firm mergers and dissolutions, and more general movement of lawyers in and out of law firms. Entry-level attorney hiring statistics are directly impacted by instability in the legal market place. The South Florida legal job market seems to be consistent with legal job markets throughout the country. Some legal employers are not hiring, and some are hiring fewer Attorneys than in past years.

For the most part, NSU Law’s employment data are also consistent with similar legal markets throughout the country. The statistics for the class of 2008 reflect a slight decrease in employment rates, with 81.57% of graduates reporting employment compared 83.68% who reported being employed in 2007. While down slightly from 2007, the 2008 figure was within the typical range of recent years (82.1% reported being employed in 2006, 80.8% in 2005, and 82.7% in 2004.) Percentages are based upon graduates that reported their status.”

More info from the Career Development Office – in the form of handouts and publications designed to help one on how to start their own practice, networking, and writing samples.

Disclosure Information

“Candor and truthfulness are the hallmarks of the legal profession. State Bar officials will review your law school application before granting you a license to practice law. In most cases your complete candor in answering law school application questions says more about your character and fitness to become a member of the Law Center student body and the Bar than anything you disclose - please be complete.”

Apparently, this duty of candor and truthfulness does not extend or apply to the law school industry. What a bunch of hypocrites!

Conclusion: One could EASILY end up with $165K in debt by attending this fourth tier trash can. Attending this school can be dangerous to one's financial health. Would you ask YOUR kid to take out this amount of non-dischargeable debt for a TTTT law degree – and accompanying TTTT job prospects? Hell, the school published that the job placement rate – for its Class of 2008 - was 81.57 percent. What rational person would take these chances?


  1. I like your comparison to the candor requirements for bar applicants. Isn't it sad that the bars spend so much time and effort poring through answers to law school and bar exam applications but so little time verifying law schools' claims about employment data?

  2. It's no coincidence that this putrid heap of dung is called Nova. It is my understanding that Nova in Spanish means "it won't go," as in, if you go to Nova law school, your career won't go anywhere.

  3. "Percentages are based upon graduates that reported their status."

    Really says it all.

  4. Once again Nando, you prove yourself to be a bitter failure. perhaps I don't have statistics tobring to thetable but every graduate I know personally of this school is a successful practicing lawyer. Keep blaming the school. Apparently, it males you feel better.

  5. you need to get out more then. Nova reported that only 81 percent of the 2008 class was employed w/i 9 mos. that figure is pathetic.

  6. Nando, every time you do a new school, I look forward to the illustrative photo. Landfills don't do it for me.

    @1:05 a.m. - Shouldn't you be discussing Mercedes models on TLS?

  7. Gazister,

    You obviously don't know too many law graduates.

  8. “Once again Nando, you prove yourself to be a bitter failure. perhaps I don't have statistics tobring to thetable but every graduate I know personally of this school is a successful practicing lawyer. Keep blaming the school. Apparently, it males you feel better.”

    Well, that is where you and I differ, Gazister: I actually have the facts and figures to back up my side of the argument. You might want to try it sometime – it helps prevent one from looking foolish. Would you go to court armed only with anecdotal stories? (We also differ in the following areas: having a backbone to stand up to this disgusting industry; possessing the capacity to see the reality of the situation; and the willingness to expose this cartel.)

    Can you read where the school states that the job placement rate for its Class of 2008 was 81.57 percent?! That would mean that roughly 18.43% of that class was unemployed within nine months of graduation. That is nearly 1/5 of that graduating class!! However, I suppose you believe that your little story trumps the facts.

    Also consider the following: Employment means ANY TYPE of work, i.e. part-time, full-time, legal, non-legal, etc. Hell, this definition may even include paid/unpaid internships. So if you work the bar at a South Florida hotspot, guess what? The school will count that as employment. Now, surely you understand that this does not require a law degree, right?!?!

    Head over to page 4 of the PDF. Of the 255 who responded, only 208 reported being employed. Of those 208 respondents, 171 stated that they were working in a full-time legal position. This means that only 66.28% of the graduating Class of 2008 – at Nova Southeastern Waste Site – was able to find full-time legal positions. Even among the employed grads, only 82.21 percent were able to find full-time legal work.

    Gazister, would that make you think that this school – and Florida law schools, in general – are producing too many JDs?! As you can see on this same page, THIRTY FIVE graduates of Nova’s Class of 2008 REPORTED BEING UNEMPLOYED AND SEEKING WORK. That represents 13.72% of the class who responded to the school’s graduate survey. How do these facts sit with you?

  9. “Once again Nando, you prove yourself to be a bitter failure.”

    He also showed that he could lay the smackdown on your ass, gasbag. Nando, how are your knuckles doin’ after back-handing this joker across his beak?

  10. Nando, good work on your lastest expose. I think you are developing a knack for showing how easily these turd factories can manipulate or massage the numbers to their advantage. With respect to suing a law school for using fraudulent stats, I think it can be done; however, the complaint has to be pleaded properly (leave out the outlandish RICO claims) and it has to be filed in a friendly forum (preferably federal court [there is too much cronyism in State Courts, e.g., NY]). If a case can get to a jury trial (which will be tough), I think some of these schools can be torpedoed out of existence. I find it rather fascinating that the latest scam in America is higher education. For example, many colleges are targeting Gulf/Afghanistan vets that are returning with all that GI Bill money. The schools are taking taxpayer money and giving vets useless degrees (e.g., associates degree in premises security where you are taught how to wield a flashlight while doing jumps on a segway) under the guise of "retooling" and assisting in the transition of vets into the workforce. I realize this site concentrates on law schools, but the problem is more widespread. I think about what Bernie Madoff did and what these schools are doing. I don't see a difference except university administrators seem immune to criminal prosecution.

  11. Well done once again.

    Let the kids know this stuff BEHOREHAND, and enable them to make an informed decision on a very, very risky investment. Sure glad my nephew chose medicine. They guard the gates to that profession. And I must salute the dental association. They protect their graduates, value them as professionals, and refuse to play the ranking game. Bully for them.

    And, to the shills, yes, one may survive jumping off a five-storey building, but that does not make it a good bet. Law school is in that class.


    Back in November 1998, this dump was named the ‘Most Wired’ law school in the U.S. by something called Business Wired magazine. Guess what? The school is still a piece of shit. Congratulations, Nova.

  13. "More info from the Career Development Office – in the form of handouts and publications designed to help one on how to start their own practice, networking, and writing samples."

    Wow, this rivals the fax machine offering from the last school you profiled. Honestly, handouts? That's the best this school's career services can do...and they tout this as a reason to apply there?

    There's a guy I often pass on my way to work who is always handing out fliers about how the gays are bringing on the rapture...maybe I should enroll at the University of Batshitcrazystan's College of Law where this guy obviously teaches.


    Florida federal court judge orders plaintiff’s attorney to re-read FRCP. Look at the terrible grammatical errors also.

    Oh,and he went to Nova Southeastern Drive Thru Diploma Center. This is the type of unprepared lawyer American law schools produce.

  15. @11:25,

    I am disgusted by the fact that these diploma mills keep popping up all across the United States.

    Here are just some of the egregious, excrementitious examples I have seen: Stevens-Henager College, Western Governors University, Everest College, Vatterott College (formerly Hamilton University), Venard College, Kaplan University, ITT Tech, DeVry University, Strayer University, Utah Career College, Neumont University, Capella University Online, Eagle Gate College, and the omnipresent University of Phoenix. This is on top of the countless no-name community colleges, and fifth-rate colleges and universities dotting the landscape.

    Hell, the University of Phoenix makes so much money, it purchased the naming rights to an NFL stadium!!

    These vile creatures are occupying space in strip malls, in large corporate office buildings, off the Interstate, and in a downtown office tower near you. The fact that the federal government continues to provide student loans so that people can attain a COMPLETELY WORTHLESS CREDENTIAL – coupled with the outsourcing of white collar work - shows that “higher education” is for the benefit of the banks and administrators of these institutions.

    Easy access to federally-backed student loans allows these turds to stay afloat. “Higher education” is a MAJOR racket in this country. But, we are also faced with the public perception/belief that “Higher education is the key to one’s future.” People have this idea instilled into them during their earliest years. Yet, can everyone be a lawyer, doctor, civil engineer, professor, nuclear scientist?

    Simply put, pretty much ANYONE with the desire can get into college, in the U.S. And there are plenty of people who do not belong in college, but go anyway – mainly to boost their job prospects. As a result of the glut of college students in this country, a four-year college degree often qualifies one to wash cars, punch movie tickets, answer phones in a call center, and deliver sandwiches.

    The fact that the federal government allows diploma mills to take advantage of returning war veterans – by offering them a chance at a college education – is sick. This is further proof that “higher education” is a scam. It certainly is not run for the benefit of most students – as most will not be able to find a job in their chosen field. Doubtless, a few will succeed in this endeavor. But that is true of any industry. Should we sing the praises of the “gaming industry” because it allows a few people to win big?!

    Bernie Madoff is NOT as filthy and slimy as these “educators” – he did not prey on people who had been indoctrinated since infancy to spend 16+ years of their lives to perform a certain task. He took advantage of greedy wannabe investors. Madoff did not operate under the pretense of someone in a position of public trust, i.e. a “professor” molding and expanding the minds of America’s future workforce. He was a key player in a very volatile, risky market. Those investors should have known better.

  16. Nando, defending Bernard Madoff is a new low, even for you. The fact that you justify and rationalize his actions is further proof that you simply have no idea what the hell you are talking about. So much for your agenda of becoming the "voice of the victims" as you so desperately seek.

  17. To the idiot above, I said that Bernard Madoff is not as filthy and slimy as these "educators". (He is still a cockroach, however.) Apparently, that registered as a defense in your mind. What law school did you attend? Did they bother to teach reasoning skills?

    I simply pointed out that he took advantage of people who were seeking to make a killing using his "wealth management" program. As early as 1999, Harry Markopoulos was telling the SEC that he thought it was legally/financially impossible for someone to be making the returns that Madoff was claiming. Guess what? They, and the investors/”victims”, ignored his warnings BECAUSE they wanted to make a bunch of money. They apparently didn't give a damn how Madoff “achieved” his results.

    How dare YOU compare those drowning in non-dischargeable student loan debt to greedy investors tossing their money in Madoff's Ponzi scheme. He took advantage of large institutions, universities, major banks, corporate executives, hedge fund managers, wealthy foundations, and country clubs.

    Students followed their dreams – as dictated to them by their parents, teachers and society. They went into debt for the purpose of improving their station in life - via HARD WORK and determination, you dense simpleton! Madoff's victims were infinitely more intelligent in the ways of business - and they were swept up in the current of greed. Madoff’s victims expected to invest tons of money and to make a quick, large return on their investment. Do you understand that?!?! Or do I need to take a poster board and some crayons and draw a diagram for you?

  18. OK Nando, go ahead and add "greedy" investors, venture capitalists and the free market to your ever-expanding list of people and things to blame your personal failures on.

    Add them to the legions of university deans, administrators, professors, the ABA, law firms, "status quo" judges, Indian workers, the global economy, "lemming" 0L's, "industry shills and apologists", your own parents and others who gave you encouragement, and the rest of society. I'm sure you won't have a problem doing that, but be sure to not assign any blame to yourself--ever.

    Man, society is so fucked up! Society was just out to get you. But you caught the bastards in a conspiracy and are now you are here to save humanity. Thank you--the world truly needs another narcissist like you!

  19. Ha! "Narcissistic Nando" has a nice ring to it!

  20. 1. *Government* jobs are paying starting salaries of $50-60k. FOR ZERO YEARS AS A PRACTICING ATTORNEY!

    2. Government is NOTORIOUS for paying less than the private industry.

    3. This blog makes broad generalizations and tries to apply them to everybody. The generalizations here don't even apply to a majority! This blog's generalizations *MAY* apply to a smaller percentage of aspiring lawyers, and even then....we don't know that these "screwed" law grads even want to practice law!

    4. It's no secret that a *substantial* percentage (Raw guess: 10%-15%?) of law grads openly admit that they have NO DESIRE to practice law. A waste of 3 years and lots of money for them? Possibly, but its not the school's fault.

  21. Also, Nando, state again why you don't sue the law schools? Oh, that's right, because of the Todd Bank case - a NY case filed back in 1992 where the litigant thought RICO would carry the day. Well, here's an idea...file a case in (Iowa?) in 2010!!! And here's a hint...don't mention RICO in it. Go figure out a C/A and get back with us. See if you can do, what many successful lawyers before you have done - get two courts to disagree.

    And to think that for a second there, I was beginning to think you didn't have a case.

  22. Tyson,

    I never thought I'd say this but...

    Please go to law school! Seriously, dude, go now.

    Then in a few years you can come back and post about how easy it was to get that federal attorney job with zero years of experience.

    Hell, I'll bet they double the salary once they see your resume! In fact, within one year, you'll probably be promoted to Attorney General of the United States.

  23. Tyson, Nando has said he can't file a claim because the judges are all corrupt and would simply throw him and his "case" right out on his ass.

    According to Nando, our courts, legislatures, educational system, and even our family institutions are all corrupted and brainwashed by the evil, meany-mean-mean law schools. Hat them, hate them, hate them. Nando habitually blames the free market, capitalism, and everyone and everything but himself. You see Tyson, he has carelessly spun his "conspiracy" theory so wide that it he has completely illegitimized himself.

    Nando's solution to all of society's ills: Put your faith in him and worship him like many of the commentators on this website. He couldn't find his way into a legal job, or out of a triple-digit law school ranking, but he is preeminently qualified to give career advice now.

  24. over 50,000 dollars per year for 3 years to get a worthless piece of paper. Nando could just put that up about every school. Yet, he doesn't. He goes directly to the school's own published words. I don't see how he's "blaming everyone but himself." I think the trolls and anons need to just admit to themselves that their presTTTTigious schools are a waste of time, money, and talent. Whenever law schools are basically ITTTTTTTTTech that cost more money, that is a BIG problem. THE REAL CRASH IS COMING, B-B-B-B-B-ABY, YOU AIN'T SEEN NOTHING YET.

  25. @7:01,

    Apparently, the trolls and industry apologist cockroaches have not noticed that I generally leave the cheap TTTs alone. Why go after CUNY or schools that are geared towards working adults and offer cheap tuition? I go after the overpriced TTTs because they are offering FALSE HOPE to legions of students, and doing so at exorbitant prices. They are sending a LARGE SEGMENT of their graduates to a lifetime of debt servitude – with no practical way for those JDs to reasonably pay back their student loans.

    9:25 is jealous because these blogs have been featured on, National Jurist, National Law Journal, WSJ and various other media outlets. Now, even law professors and deans are on record supporting our basic arguments. Frankly, 9:25 is fortunate that I permit him to post his mindless drivel on this blog; I do so for the sole purpose of letting the readers see the mindset we are up against.

    Others have pointed out that getting such a case to a jury – even in federal court – would be VERY difficult. A brief primer for the clueless: Those people in the black robes are called judges. And they decide questions of law. Hence, they can preclude such a case from going to a jury. Got that?! (Also, did you see where I earlier noted that Bank should have left out RICO?)

    Be practical for once in your life, 9:25. This also applies to you, Tyson. Do you honestly think that these guardians of the legal system, i.e. judges, are going to allow their beloved “profession” – which has given them so much in the way of prestige, power and status – to be publicly embarrassed?!?! It is also amusing that you believe in the supposed “free market”, 9:25. Would you say that “higher education” in this country operates under such a market?!

    Tyson, do you ever get tired of repeating the same old line about federal attorney jobs offering $50K-$60K for no experience – without providing ANY links to these supposed jobs? DID IT EVER OCCUR TO YOU that these alleged job openings will be going to people with sterling academic credentials and to those with impressive family, business and political connections?!?! Now, explain the following:

    In New York, junior attorneys with 1-4 years’ experience are being offered doc review at $25-$40 per hour. Oh, and the employer ONLY wants those JDs from top 25 schools – or top 10 percent from other law schools. This is a contract position, i.e. it is temporary. This project could be gone in a few weeks or months.

    In Chicago, a few months back, a Research Attorney position opened up for licensed Illinois lawyers. The starting pay was a measly $10 an hour!!

    The link above is no longer valid – but it featured a $12 an hour, 40 hours a week job working for a personal injury firm in Piscataway, NJ.

    These are just a FRACTION of the low-wage, temporary attorney positions posted on a regular basis. So, again, Tyson, I ask you: how do YOU explain this situation?!

  26. is higher education too big to fail?

  27. Narcissistic Nando @ 8:33: "these blogs have been featured on, National Jurist, National Law Journal, WSJ and various other media outlets. Now, even law professors and deans are on record supporting our basic arguments."

    You are really giving yourself a nice reputation for humility. You don't sound egotistical at all! Now lets just find you a shiny medal for your great contribution to all of mankind!

    "Frankly, 9:25 is fortunate that I permit him to post his mindless drivel on this blog"

    OH thank you Narcissistic Nando for bestowing me with your bountiful gifts! You are so noble indeed--you don't even sensor a blog that purports to address a matter of public concern! Wow! How good of you! Lets all give thanks and praise to Nando!

    Just keep spinning your convoluted, half-baked conspiracy theory. The more you write, the more people are recognizing you for the hack you are.

  28. OMG this blog is genius! I'm so tired of universities gouging students for their over priced degrees. Glad someone is finally sticking it to the man!

  29. Say what you want but this blog has credibility. I am a successful lawyer who graduated from 4th tier crap 20 plus years ago. That being said, I would not advise any kid to go to law school unless they meet the parameters set out in the blog.

    Ultimately if you want to take the risk of incurring this debt thinking you might make it big, I wish you the best. Just know what you are getting in to and accept the responsibility of the loan if you go.

    High priced third and four tier Law Schools are simply expensive lottery tickets bought on credit from a loan shark. I know so many kids from my class and subsequent classes who all took the loans and are still trying to pay them back while they work for next to nothing because they could not get a law job that paid much more then what they were doing before they went to school. However some have become quite rich.

    Is the law school system a scam? I think thats a bit much. However, if they lie about their employment statistics, they should be prosecuted under RICO.

    Like any investment the risk needs to be calculated. For most, it is a horrible decision to go to law school in todays world. You destroy yourself financially and mentally but people do it becuase they see it as a way to get rich even if they know the odds are slim. Its not about the prestige of being a lawyer.

    With the prices of school going up, the rate of pay of jobs getting lower if you can even find one, combined with the legislation that is destroying so many areas of practice, you would have to be a fool to go to a toilet law school. But until people wake up and see what they are spending their money on not to mention likely giving up the prime 20s fun years, schools will continue to increase tuition because the places in the class have 5-10 applicants per spot.

    Seems like a great recession proof business model to me.

    All this blog does is provide information that makes you think and that is a good thing.

  30. I went to this law school and it was a complete failure. Everything you wrote is correct, although the tuition was much lower when I attended. All this does is confirm for me that I need to blow my brains out as soon as possible. Thank you.

  31. @Nando - 8:33am [QUOTE] "The link above is no longer valid – but it featured a $12 an hour, 40 hours a week job working for a personal injury firm in Piscataway, NJ.

    These are just a FRACTION of the low-wage, temporary attorney positions posted on a regular basis. So, again, Tyson, I ask you: how do YOU explain this situation?!" [QUOTE]

    First, I'll take your word that these jobs were seriously looking for attorneys. Second, assuming these were valid posts (and not some scam, like many internet jobs are), is it really any secret that a BRAND NEW attorney won't get paid that much. That also goes for a resident doctor, and anyone else who just starts out. When lawyers and doctors really get paid is when they...get this....FIGURE OUT HOW TO PRACTICE! No, law schools don't teach how to practice, but that doesn't mean it can't be learned through a couple years of menial work...doc review, public service, court dockets, and yes even temp $12-15 / hr jobs. On average, the pay increases greatly for every year of experience in practice.

  32. I went to nova for a year. Some kids were there and actually thought they could land a decent, well-paying job after graduation. I busted my ass for a year and transferred out (to a top law school). Best decision I ever made. I know of one, yes ONE, student from there that was my same year who was able to land a job with a six figure salary. Most of the others are either unemployed or working for some foreclosure defense or insurance defense mill (and thus being paid dog shit to do work that a person with a GED could do)...

    Avoid this place like the PLAGUE!!!

  33. I went to this law school and can honestly say that every single person I was friends with in my graduating class has a legal job and got it within a year. Nando fails to mention that Nova has the second highest bar passage rate of the Florida law schools. Funny that he omits that fact. He also fails to take into account word of mouth. In South Florida, Nova has a BETTER reputation than both Miami and Stetson. Why? It's partly due to the fact that Nova was ranked in the top 30 for its legal writing program, and many law firms these days want their junior associates to do nothing but writing and research. He also fails to take into account the excellent faculty that Nova has, which is why the practical skill level of Nova lawyers is very respected in south Florida.

    It's funny how someone can pick and choose numbers to support his claim when he's never gone to a particular school and hasn't spoken with people from the school or ppl in the community. Numbers may not lie, but they also don't tell the whole story. I find it amusing that ppl actually listen to this bitter person who couldn't cut it.

  34. Midlaw partner here to say that I would rather hire a barrister or solicitor from Nova Scotia than from Nova Law School. That is all.

  35. @8:19 – You have my condolences, if you did attend this festering fourth tier pile of fecal matter – and are not an administrative hack on the payroll of this dump.

    The state has 11 law schools, with several of them located in South Florida, i.e. St. Thomas, University of Miami, Florida International, Stetson, Nova. While many of these schools are trash, the fact remains that the South Florida legal market becomes FURTHER SATURATED with each passing year – as more JDs are pumped out into the local area. Yet, you maintain that every single one of your friends landed a legal job within one year of graduating from this commode. (Sure, did Beyonce also spend the night at your place, last night?) By chance, were all of your friends the rich kids who waltzed their way into daddy’s firm, upon graduation?

    News flash: bar passage DOES NOT EQUAL legal employment - or non-legal employment, for that matter. Also, I have talked to people in the Davie-Fort Lauderdale area. The common sentiment is that the school is an overpriced turd. So, Nova has an excellent faculty, huh? Guess what, pretty much every TTT and TTTT has plenty of professors with Ivy League credentials. Furthermore, does “learning” legal theory from such “professors” actually result in strong job prospects for these TTTT students?!?!

    The SCHOOL RERORTS that the placement rate was 81.57 percent, for its (unfortunate) Class of 2008. Did you read that, or does your world class “legal education” preclude you from objectively looking at the hard facts? The first paragraph on the second page of the PDF – right under INTRODUCTION – states the following:

    “For the 2008 class, 81.57% reported being employed in February following their graduation. This was slightly down from 83.68% in 2007 who reported employment at the same time interval.”

    Go onto page 3, paragraph 2 – under JOB MARKET REALITIES:

    “While slightly down from 2007, the 2008 figures was within the typical range of recent years (82.1% reported being employed in 2006, 80.8% in 2005, and 82.7% in 2004.) Percentages are based upon graduates that reported their status.”

    Did I make those numbers up, kid? Am I the one who put together a PDF for the school? Nova $ouTTTThea$TTTTern Univer$iTTTTy Law CenTTTTer consistently provides its graduates with grim job prospects. Many of those recent Nova JDs who are employed are working for low wages, or in non-legal employment. THESE PATHETIC RESULTS SIMPLY DO NOT JUSTIFY THE HIGH COST IN TUITION.

  36. All Florida schools are TTTT. No one outside the state of Florida would consider UF or FSU prestigious.

  37. [QUOTING Nando at 11:01am]:
    "The SCHOOL RERORTS that the placement rate was 81.57 percent, for its (unfortunate) Class of 2008. Did you read that, or does your world class “legal education” preclude you from objectively looking at the hard facts?" [END QUOTE]

    I think your legal education was flawed Nando. 8:19 said everyone was employed WITHIN THE YEAR. You followed that with a stat accounting for grads FOLLOWING GRADUATION. Big difference.

    I go to a TT law school in the mid-west. By graduation, everyone I talked to was employed. I'm sure from those who weren't, they either found work soon, chose to continue with more higher ed, or simply didn't WANT to practice law.

    Also, the general public is mezmerized by lawyers. Just look at how many tv shows cater to this public interest. And wherever there is a high public interest in something...the profession is lucrative!

  38. June 17, 2010 2:41 PM = lying sack of shit. Nobody believes that everyone you talked to at your TT had a job at graduation. Not even the T14 schools make that claim.

  39. "And wherever there is a high public interest in something...the profession is lucrative!"

    Excellent point. Every time I turn on the TV, I see a show about cops. Clearly, there is a high public interest in the law enforcement profession. And that's why every single cop in America makes $2.5 million a year.

  40. I think anyone considering Nova should consider the following: Would you rather incur 6 figure non-dischargeable student loan debt to obtain a JD from a law school that has less charm and prestige than a truck stop toilet, or would you rather make a $60K a year wielding a snake and unclogging toilets for a living? I would chose the latter since as a plumber you can wash the stench of shit off of you. A law degree from a toilet institute is something you cannot wash away unless you killself.

  41. What are you smoking, 2:41? You think that because TV shows glamorize lawyers, this means that law is a lucrative industry?! Well, overall it is a billion-dollar industry. Guess what? Meatpacking is also a profitable industry. However, the average worker in the slaughterhouse is NOT sharing in the wealth. And the same holds for your average lawyer who is struggling to make his student loan payments, take care of his bills, put food in his fridge and support his family. He is not doing so well either.

    Next, learn how to read, 2:41. Here is the stat that you misinterpreted/misunderstood:

    “The first paragraph on the second page of the PDF – right under INTRODUCTION – states the following:

    “For the 2008 class, 81.57% reported being employed in February following their graduation. This was slightly down from 83.68% in 2007 who reported employment at the same time interval.”

    Law school graduation ceremonies occur in May, correct? The graduates responded to the graduate employment survey by the February following their graduation. That would mean that NINE MONTHS passed from the date of their graduation to when the figures were published. (I guess you failed to read where it said “in February following their graduation.”) This is the same time frame/methodology that US News & World Report and NALP use to define placement. Is it your contention that the remaining 18.43 percent at Nova were employed in the next three months?! Would YOU care to back that assertion up with the facts?!?!

    “I go to a TT law school in the mid-west. By graduation, everyone I talked to was employed. I'm sure from those who weren't, they either found work soon, chose to continue with more higher ed, or simply didn't WANT to practice law.”

    So, are you still a law student in the Midwest? If so, did you attend the graduation ceremony of another class – and talk solely to the top students, or the connected ones? And on what basis do you hold your BELIEF that those who did not have jobs at graduation soon found employment or simply did not want to practice law?

    Also, when you see people with JDs who decide to pursue another advanced degree, doesn’t that signal that the law degree DID NOT pay off for them?! This mentality is sad, i.e. “I spent six figures on this worthless “professional” degree, and cannot find a job. I know! This means I should go for a Master’s or Ph.D.” Yes, that’s the ticket, huh?!

  42. As far as TTTTs go, Nova isn't that bad, but it's simply not true to say that it carries more weight than TTTs Miami or Stetson. Two of the biggest firms in the State--Holland and Knight and Carlton and Fields, both have more grads from Miami and Stetson than Nova.

    There is a pretty clear pecking order in the State and it goes UF, FSU, UM, Stetson.

  43. A guy named Richard Cheng went here and graduated not too long ago. Ask him how much Nova has helped him.

  44. This comment has been removed by the author.

  45. Tell me, Nando...what were your expectations of law school and what you expected for a job in the legal field? You've admitted in other comments that you finished in the BOTTOM HALF of your law class. Drake is a good regional school - not a national school. It would have been better for you to drop out, cut your losses, and keep your honor rather than lower yourself to the pathetic level of this blog. I don't disagree with all your points - tuition is too high.

    And yes, career placement stats are misleading...but what did you expect? They are there for recruitment purposes and recruitment purposes only. Every single school that exists - bachelor, master, doctorate, law, medical, pharmacy - every single one - doctors their numbers to make their school look better to potential students. Did it ever occur to you to take these numbers with a very large grain of salt?

  46. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  48. Nando-

    I think you should slot this school in next. Fully accredited by ABA as of June 11.



    Good luck taking your LSAT in OCtober, Nighthawk. Hopefully, your wife doesn't mind supporting your ass for 3 years. This, and you have two kids to feed? How selfish?!

  50. Nighthawk
    Champaign, Illinois, United States
    I am 29 with a wife and two daughters. I'm looking to go to law school for a number of reasons. Follow my blog and find out why.

    Get a job and support your family. Be a man. Grow some nads.

  51. Nighthawk is probably a trust fund baby and a guy who votes for either one of the two parties, knowing that either option will screw him, but he takes the lesser of two evils approach.

  52. anonymouse@10:52: I have a job, actually. Two of them, even though I only need one to adequately support my family. And I've had consistent employment for the last six years. That's more than you've got, I'll wager. I've also crunched the financial numbers of the schools I'm looking at (which include Drake, incidentally) combined with what I am capable of academically and what I expect to make (and no, it's not a six figure number) and what debt I'd be taking on, and for us, it would result in a net gain for our long-term plans. I have sought advice from DA's, judges, law professors, and attorneys in large, midsize, and small firms. All have been honest, and all have given me solid information and advice.

    It's all about doing the actual work instead of complaining about it. While some people may be dumb enough to put their lives in permanent servitude because they fall under an illusion, I am not one of those people, and I don't do anything this size without careful research and planning to make sure it's worth it.

    Next time, do your research before you trash someone you know nothing about.

  53. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  54. @ 11:59

    Are you actually surprized that Nando is apparently now sensoring his blog? His idiotic conspiracy theory has completely fallen apart. He realizes that he has to tightly control his message and can't have people questioning their fearless leader.

  55. @11:59

    No, not terribly surprised. It does strike me as odd that you can find a plethora of negativity on law and law profession, but you can't find much positive. However, this trend permeates the internet with just about every employment sector. I'm wondering if the people who are happy just don't feel the need to defend themselves or their career online. I should take a lesson from that for the future.

  56. "What you are capable of academically" and "what you expect to make" are not facts, they are expectations with no certainty--in other words, they are dreams. Everyone who goes to law school thinks they are going to be in the top percentile, every single one. Yet by definition, only a handful do -- and by the way they aren't getting any jobs, either.

    As to whatever salary you expect to make, how do you expect to make it if there are NO JOBS? You can work as hard as you want and be as self-righteous as you please, but you can't make jobs materialize where there aren't any. Why would you give up what sounds like a secure present for a bankrupt and desperate future? You're mortgaging your family's future for a lot of airy-fairy dreams and wishes all for the sake of calling yourself "Esq." but your children can't eat your degree, you know. Does your wife appreciate what it would take to pay back six figures with a husband who can't find a job and two children to feed?

    You say you've contacted all these people in the legal profession and they've given you "honest" advice. HA! If that were true, you would be running from LS screaming "Feets don't fail me now!"

    But good luck, really. You're going to need it.

  57. @12:22 PM

    I don't believe Nighthawk has definitively stated that he's going to go to law school. It could be that by the time he takes the LSAT, applies, and gets the financing packages back, he decides it's not worth it. Perhaps a job in his original field comes calling. Except there aren't any jobs right now in that field, either. That's what happens in a tough economy, and if you're unlucky enough to graduate with a degree in anything during a bad economy, then you're SOL.

    He strikes me as more intelligent than most - if not all - of the people who comment on this blog, and he doesn't seem like the type who's going to go to law school regardless of any other consideration if he's not comfortable with the financial package and various other factors that only he will know.

    As far as being able to contact people in the legal profession - living in Champaign, IL - home of the University of Illinois - would grant him easy access to such resources.

  58. Nighthawk comes across as someone who will weigh everything before going the law school route. However, if he thinks that his amazing intellect alone will land him a legal job, he is sadly mistaken. You will be attending school with plenty of ambitious, back-stabbing, bright people that want to make law review. Most of the people who get into ls smashed the bejeezus out of their undergrad programs. This more than likely includes the bitter author of this blog. That means they have the mindset that they will contuinue to study hard and this will result in them succeeding wildly in law school. Oh, if only that were the case.

    You state that DAs, judges, professors and lawyers from small, midlaw, and large firms have given you solid advice. Do they all think that you are capable of making law review? Have they informed you of the shrinking legal market for lawyers? If not, they have been anything but honest with you. And I certainly hope you are not putting your family’s financial health at risk, just so you can fulfill a lifelong dream. You will be 33 or 34 by the time you finish school. Do you think law firms will want to hire you for SA, when they can go with a tall, good-looking 25 year old or a pretty face with long legs? If you cannot find legal work, will non-law employers want some random 34 year old who decided to go to law school for 3 yrs insteadof supporting his family?

    And you should also take your advice about not trashing others you know nothing about. The blog author did research his decision. True, he still ended up at a TTT no one has much regard for. most of the people posting on this board researched the data, and weighted the pros and cons. Don’t act like you are the only one smart enough to have researched this decision beforehand. You’re not.

  59. From this kid who has yet to take the frickin; LSAT

    “I returned to school and obtained a master's degree in a field of my choosing. Then something unexpected happened. The economy crashed, and pretty much destroyed the social service and education sectors for the next five or ten years. The flip side is that the economy will recover and come out stronger than it was before the crash, but it won't recover in time for me to be seen as a viable option for any teaching job - I'll have been out of a classroom for too long. Hopefully, the normal person has learned a thing or two about how to be responsible with their money along the way, since monetary irresponsibility was the primary cause of the worst recession in decades.

    It doesn't help that I happen to live in a state with a gross oversaturation of people in that chosen field. I didn't count on that, and I didn't do the proper research to ensure that I'd have realistic expectations for my job prospects when I graduated. When the baby boomers start retiring en masse sometime in the next 5-10 years, there will be job openings in that field - and just about every other sector - like you won't believe. “

    The above quotes are from the ramblings of an idiot with no credibility.
    You have not even taken the LSAT. You already have a Master’s degree. It has done you so well, that you are now looking at law school. Just from looking at your writing style, you do not have the acumen to succeed in ls with your reasoning skills. Yes, the average Joe hijacked the economy, not Wall St. bankers. Good one.

    You hang your decision on your sense that Baby Boomers will retire en masse sometime in the next 5-10 yrs. OK, good luck with that, Pollyanna. The economy is going to recover and come out stronger than it was before the crash, Nostradamus? Who will win the Super Bowl this February? Any insights>

    “You can't predict how the economy will be when you enter the job market in your chosen profession. No one can. Do your thing. A sour job market today in any field should not be a deterrent in pursuing the necessary education for your desired career. Think about this for a minute: If you apply for law school this September - 2010 - you start law school in the fall of 2011. This means that you do not graduate until 2014. That's four YEARS away. Trying to predict what the economy will be like then and what the legal job market will be by then is an exercise in futility and frustration.”

    You can’t predict what will happen in 4 years, hence you **should** go to law school. This is comedy gold! The market has fundamentally changed, child. Biglaw clients want legal representation on the cheap. People don’t value the services of a lawyer, as much as you think.


    Maybe Dumbshit Pre-Law Boy should check this story out. Hold onto your jobs and feed your kids, dummy.

    Out-of-work job applicants told unemployed need not apply

  61. There's no lawyer jobs! There's no teaching jobs! There's no construction jobs! There's no accountant jobs! There's no jobs to recruit people for jobs! In fact, I hear that jobs are going to disappear altogether! Everyone will stay at home... all. the. time. Until they starve from the lack of income from the lack of a job! Everyone might even start a blog to warn others, but it will be futile because there will still be no jobs.

    ...and the sky continues to fall.

  62. Wow, the amount of venomous assholes on this website amazes me.

  63. Maybe you will look objectively at the facts before deciding to go to law school, 12:00. Then again, you may be on the payroll of some TTT – blogging under the guise of a prospective law student. My question to you: what stake do YOU, as a pre-law student, have in defending the law school industry?

    Here is what I did before going to law school:

    I went to a state school for undergrad, earning a 3.82 GPA while working full-time, and attending school full-time. My job did not allow me to study while I was on the clock. I had a lot of sleepless nights preparing for exams and putting the final edits on term papers. I was so pressed for time, and so intent on graduating sooner than later, that I even took a couple of classes that overlapped on the schedule. When I had exams for classes at the university extension building, I would leave work, drive to the train station, and review my notes a few more times while riding the train.

    I also talked to several practicing attorneys who told me that this was a great profession, and that it had provided them with so many opportunities they otherwise would not have had. (Looking back, my mistake was talking to older attorneys.) I also told my wife, family and friends beforehand that I would NOT go to law school unless I received a full-tuition scholarship. Drake offered such a scholarship to me, and I kept it for the three years I was there. I did not graduate with $130K in student debt. I graduated with an additional $37K in non-dischargeable debt – for living expenses. I even saved up roughly $10,000 to pay moving costs and to help somewhat limit the amount of loans I would need to take out.

    Do these things make me exceptional? Of course not, but this story is similar to many of those who decide to go to law school. However, when you refer to me as a petulant child, you only make yourself look foolish. Your optimism about the market making a strong recovery also shows that you CLEARLY do not know what the hell you are talking about, with regard to the lawyer job market.

    Simply put, you need to take your own advice and not talk trash about someone you don’t know. The bottom line is that I have graduated from law school, and I was able to minimize my student debt. You have not even sat for the LSAT yet. Furthermore, look at the number of practicing lawyers who comment on this blog – and see how many of them support my basic arguments about the shrinking legal job market. Are you smarter than those people? Are YOU in a better position than they to offer advice on the U.S. lawyer job market?!

    You obviously do not give a damn about recent law graduates and their anemic job prospects. With your know-it-all attitude, I can see that you are headed to law school. At least then you will be in a position to offer advice on the state of the industry. You don’t find it discomforting that you have a Master’s degree, and are in a dead-end field? What makes you think more education is the answer? Did one of your professors tell you that more education is the key?

    This blog is not about me – my student debt load is not that bad. This blog is PRIMARILY concerned with educating prospective law students about the shrinking U.S. lawyer job market. It is designed to help some pre-law students avoid life-altering, soul-crushing debt. I guess, you have a problem with information that is accurate. I suppose you are only interested in seeing a rosy, false picture of the legal industry. Well, guess what? That is not the case, no matter how much you may wish it to be – and boundless optimism will NOT increase your job prospects.

  64. The fact remains Drake is a middling, trifling law school that is NOT situated between the second and third tier, as you allege. It is solidly third tier. In fact, about 5 years ago, this school was rated in the fourth tier of American law schools – by US News & World Report:

    Furthermore, what difference would it practically make if Drake were to make it into the second tier? Will that help Drake JDs land gainful employment? Remember, legal employers care about caliber of the degree. In case you have not noticed, there are legions of JDs from top 15 schools who are not able to land lawyer positions. Oh well, that won’t dissuade you from your belief that Third Tier Drake is a solid school.

    Third Tier Drake also has the gall to publish an employment rate of 96.8 percent for its graduates – on its website. At the end of my second year, I went to dinner with an entire class. Most of the students were getting ready to graduate in a few weeks. The professor – a man I actually respect, as a human being – asked several of the students about their future plans. MOST OF THEM DID NOT HAVE ANYTHING LINED UP!! Some talked about moving back in with their parents. Others talked about taking the bar exam, and hoping that something would become available. (And no, lemming, they did not sit at home waiting for the phone to ring. They were actively, frantically looking for work.) Many discussed the idea of returning to their old jobs. It was a depressing night, even though the professor picked up the tab.

    Lastly, did you know that the outgoing SBA president at Third Tier Drake was unemployed at graduation, and had few prospects? He was very active in several student organizations and glad-handed with established members of the local legal community. Did he fail to “network”? Were you aware that law review students at Drake were sweating buckets during the May 2009 ceremony – due to their lack of jobs? Many former classmates – including those with stellar grades/journal experience/Moot Court – are currently subsisting on court-appointed cases; working non-legal jobs; and making $35K as practicing attorneys? What is their supposed defect, pre-law student? Next time get your facts straight before you attempt to speak on this subject.

  65. However, Nando is employed everyone!! Even though in a non-legal job, he is employed. This, despite telling everyone that a J.D. "taints" grads who seek non-legal employment.

    The bottom line is this: Law school can't hurt *most* of its students since most law students only had "poly-sci" and "history" majors to begin with. THEREFORE, WHAT THE HELL DO THESE TYPES OF PEOPLE HAVE TO LOSE ANYWAY FROM GETTING A J.D.?

    Granted, law grads are in debt (like every other student in this country), but a J.D. certainly provides better CHANCES for employment than a FREAKING history major!!!

  66. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  67. Ha! You seem pretty happy with "middling, trifling" Drake in your composite picture Nando! I guess that was before God met you in a dream and told you that you were the chosen one to lead the masses against the evil law school empire.

  68. You should have seen the graduation ceremony photos someone posted on here earlier. Nando must have removed them, but Nando looked thrilled with his "middling, trifling" Drake J.D. (the same "middling, trifling" law school where Nando apparently finished last in his class)

  69. Does anyone know if Nando was precluded from taking the bar exam, perhaps because of C&F results, or something of the like? I was thinking that he was just bitter and trying to "get back."

    Although, I know Nando has posted in earlier blogs that it wasn't a good investment of $2,000 for bar review, exam, etc.

  70. Well, I'm not sure, and we'll probably never really know because Nando won't accept any personal blame for not being able to get a job in the legal industry. I say this because he never responds to the allegations about him finishing last in his class and not taking the bar exam. He never addresses thouse points, despite the fact that he writes essay length, self-aggrandizing responses to just about every other post (kudos to the poster who came up with the nickname "narcissistic Nando"--that may be the most fitting name ever). I wouldn't be at all surprised that Nando lacked the character and fitness to become a member of any bar.

  71. OMG, Nando is smiling in his graduation photo!

    I guess that means everything he's saying about the legal market is wrong!

    Well then, clearly every single person who graduates from law school will strike it rich!

    TTTT? That's ok! You'll make at least 250,000 a year!

    Oversaturated market? No such thing.

    Clients who want you to do more work for less money? Ha! That's just an urban myth.

    Don't pay attention to anything in this blog! Just get out there and start borrowing $$$ because nothing is more fun than owing Sallie Mae six figures!!

  72. Where is all this animosity to Nando coming from? I don't understand why people who condemn him as 'bitter' choose to spend so much time and effort spewing vitriol and attacking him personally. What is their skin in the game?

    People who want to go to law school benefit from having LESS COMPETITION. Nando is trying to get people to be careful about their decisions. If anything, he is IMPROVING the chances of people dead set on law school by discouraging competition. How is this harmful to ANYONE(aside from the law school cartel).

    Nando is not the only one with an anti-law school blog. Something doesn't make sense here.

  73. OMG you're in love with Nando, a loser who couldn't hack it in law school and who now wants your loyal servitude!

    I guess that means you are a total sheep.

  74. Now that you are finished with TTT law school, what are you going to do about it? This blog brings back bad memories of 12 years ago when, after graduating from the bottom of a TTT law school, I was unemployed, living at home with my parents, single, and probably clinically depressed.

    I have since litigated dozens of cases in both federal and state courts, co-founded an IP litigation firm, and am doing very well financially. And this is just the beginning.
    I recommend that you do the following:
    1. Print a business card: Keep looking for a job, but you’re not an unemployed lawyer. You are now an ambitious solo practitioner.
    2. Learn to practice law: Whether you went to TTT or Yale, LAW SCHOOL HAS TAUGHT YOU NOTHING. One of the most frustrating things about law is that you waste 7 years to learn legal reasoning skills that can be taught in 1 year; and you learn nothing else about how to practice law. Pick a realistic practice area such as criminal, real estate, divorce, estates, personal injury, etc., Then:
    a. Read CLEs to learn how to practice the area that you are interested in.
    b. Go to court and watch lawyers practice.
    c. Try to meet and make friends with lawyers. Join the local bar association.
    3. Mass mail for a job: Find a list of small to midsize law firms from MartinDale Hubble or Sullivan’s and send an unsolicited job application letter to every firm. Why do law schools tell people not to do this? It works. Take any job that gives you the opportunity to 1. Learn law, and 2. Meet other lawyers. The salary that they pay you doesn’t matter.

  75. 4. Find an group of attorneys that will let you office with them: Small firm lawyers will rent a room to you. Sometimes they’ll give it to you for free if you “run” for them (ie cover cases in court when they’re busy). This lets you meet lawyers and learn the business. When you get your own clients you’ll have experienced lawyers to guide you.
    5. Stop thinking like an employee:
    a. This blog, and the comments, obsess over starting salaries. They compare their “salaries” to “salaries” that corporate employees make. Fuck salaries! In my heart of hearts, I don’t respect anyone who draws a salary. No successful lawyer draws a salary. Every successful lawyer is a de facto solo practitioner who runs his or her own practice. It doesn’t matter if you have 0 partners, 5 partners or 1,000 partners. If a BigLaw partner loses his $3 million book of business, he’s no longer a partner. If you magically acquire a $3 million book, then you’re a partner at any law firm that you want. It’s as simple as that.
    b. Start getting clients. Put up a website. Advertise. Pass out your card. You can’t lose. If you get a job, bring your clients. Once you have enough clients, you don’t need a job.
    c. A law business grows exponentially. Your first year you’ll make very little. Second year you’ll make a little more. But within a few years, you will make a lot. There is no upper bound! Stop quibbling over “starting salaries”. Unlike a pathetic corporate salaryman, the business is yours. No one can ever take it away from you.
    6. Don’t give up on sophisticated litigation: If you want to do antitrust, IP, corporate, mergers, etc.; try very hard to get a job at a big firm. But if you don’t, remember life is a marathon. I started out with small criminal cases. I then expanded to more sophisticated litigation and finally to federal patent litigation which is very lucrative and which I am very good at. Anything is possible.
    7. Be positive: Why are law schools so damn negative? Everything is bad news. Everything is impossible. Everyone has something wrong with them if they get bad grades. Everyone is doomed if they don’t get a job at a big firm. Fuck them all! Why can’t they teach routine legal skills without making everyone a nervous wreck? I represent technology entrepreneurs in patent matters and am amazed by how positive and optimistic business students and business professionals are. Law professors and students should be ashamed of themselves. You convince a client, a judge, and a jury by being positive; not by being an asshole.

    Nando: I like you blog. I just started blogging myself. Where do you get those cool pictures of toilets?

    Anyone can feel free to contact me on the blog that I just started,, if you’d like to talk about career advice.

    Best of luck to everyone!

  76. Patentcontingency= breath of fresh air to this blog

  77. I'm sick and tired of hearing things,
    from uptight, short sighted, narrow minded hypocrites,
    all I want is the truth,
    just gimme some truth,
    I've had enough of reading things,
    by neurotic, psychotic, pig headed politicians,
    all I want is the truth,
    just give us the truth,

    No short haired, yellow bellied, son of tricky Dicky is
    gonna mother hubbard, soft soap me with just a pocket full of oil,
    money for oil,
    money for oil.

    I'm sick to death of seeing things,
    by tight lipped, condescending, mommy's little chauvinists,
    all I want is the truth,
    just gimme some truth,
    I've had enough of watching scenes,
    of schizophrenic, egocentric, paranoia prima donnas,
    all I want is the truth,
    just give us the truth,

    No short haired, yellow bellied, son of tricky Dicky is
    gonna mother hubbard soft soap me with just a pocket full of oil,
    money for oil,
    money for oil,

    No short haired, yellow bellied, son of George-Porgy is
    gonna mother hubbard soft soap me with just a pocket full of oil,
    it's money for oil,
    no blood for oil,

    I'm sick to death of hearing things,
    from uptight, short sighted, narrow minded hypocrites,
    all I want is the truth,
    just gimme some truth,
    I've had enough of reading things,
    by neurotic psychotic, homophobic hypocrites,
    all I want is the truth,
    just give us the truth,
    all we want is the truth,
    just give us the truth,
    we can handle the truth,
    just give us some truth,
    share with us the truth,
    we'll give you our truth.

  78. Patentcontingency = spammer whose posts should be deleted.

    The problem is that I went to law school because the stats put out by the law schools and the media that is in part supported by their ads showed that the odds are very good of making decent money right out of law school.

    The law schools and their cartel lied about this. That is fraud.

    I had NO INTEREST in working years and years struggling before I could support myself. Yet even Patentcontingency tacitly admits that is case (even tho his posts are just to get exposure for his solo practice website).

  79. keep up the good fight, nando. The way they are coming after you shows that you are hurting them

  80. Homelesslawyerposting from library:

    You are pathetic. You reek of a sense of entitlement and, frankly, give credence to older generations who think all young people are lazy. No wonder no one wants to hire you. I mean, what do you do, walk into an interview and say "I have a JD, I am entitled to a high pay job, so hire me"?

    Sometimes sacrifice and hard work is necessary to become successful. This isn't unique to the legal profession, Just about every profession requires years of hard work at a low salary before becoming successful. Ask anyone who has started a business.

    I generally agree with Nando that law schools have been putting out fraudulent information with respect to employment prospects. It's wrong, and in my opinion, border line criminal. I truly feel bad for recent graduates who want legal experience but can't find work. However, that does NOT excuse your sense of entitlement and lack of work ethic. I have no sympathy for your ilk.

    I never thought I would say this (maybe I am getting old), but preconceptions about most younger Americans being lazy appears true. I have spent a lot of time abroad, including third world countries on every continent. People there realize that the world owes you nothing. Why can't you accept that and be grateful for knowing that at least you have an opportunity to become successful and financially secure with a little hard work and sacrifice? Unbelievable.

  81. It is not only third tier schools that deceive prospective students.

    I had to do it after I saw the silly attacks that the pro-law school 0Ls were making against Nando's blog.

  82. Homelesslawyerpostingfromlibrary:
    I think the advice that I gave is reasonable. A few points:
    1. I don’t disagree with Nando that the decision to attend law school, especially a TTT, can be a bad one and that law school advertising is deceptive. But now that you’re stuck where you are, you may as well make the most of it.
    2. I didn’t “tacitly” say that it takes a few years to make good money; I said it pretty blatantly. The second half of my statement is that, like all businesses, the growth is exponential and that after a few years, you will make a lot of money.
    3. As for spamming: If I understand it correctly, I am posting on a blog of unemployed lawyers who have no clients, in order to attract referrals and clients. I am also doing so anonymously. If you follow to my blog, that I started 4 days ago, it doesn’t mention my name or my firm.
    4. Regarding my small firm practice: As a general rule, large firms correspond to sophisticated (lucrative) practice and small firms correspond to routine (non-lucrative) practice. There are exceptions to this rule: Namely boutique contingency fee firms in areas such as PI, products liability, class action, business litigation and patents and IP; where successful partners can make far more than big firm partners. Google, for example, Joseph Jamail, Gerald Hosier, Steve Lisa, Phillip Corboy, Quinn Emmanuel, and Provost Umphrey. I am nowhere near any of these attorneys, but there is a smoothly varying continuum of income. A sophisticated small firm does not mean failure.

    I was in exactly your shoes and I’ll share my experience for what it’s worth: Law schools do several things wrong that cripple their recent graduates:
    1. They foster a culture of cynicism and negativity that instills a defeatist attitude in their students/recent grads.
    2. They teach everyone to want be a petty salaryman employee.
    3. They tell you that if you failed to make a big firm (which I agree is the best and fastest way to success) you will forever be a second rate failure. This is not true. Try the big firm Plan A. If you fail, execute Plan B; and succeed.

    I spent 1-2 years wallowing in self pity and anger. Then I got to work.

  83. PatentContingency, You have excellent advice and I, as a 3L, plan to follow it. Thank you. I don't care what the market is like, I will succeed.

    In earlier posts, I have said that being a lawyer is all about problem solving...and if you are an unemployed lawyer, then its a problem you need to solve. After all, if you can't solve your own problem, what business do you have trying to solve others' problems?

  84. Nighthawk, wants to piggyback off of a popular blog to make his case. What a pathetic piece of shit. Have fun with your wife and raising your best friend's kids.

  85. once again, I will say that the law school cartel widely disseminates stats that give the impression that almost every single grad of law school makes a good living right away.
    Specifically, the law school cartel stats show that about well over 90 percent of all law school grads are employed at an average salary of about 60K. this is a fraudulent lie designed to lure in more victims.

    I fell for that lie, hoping that I could at least pay my bills. I graduated magna. Never been fired from a job in my life. Experienced patent agent. CS Degree. Sent out over 150 resumes, emails, job apps, etc. Not one interview. Almost went broke and lost my life savings trying to go solo.

    Perp walk the law school deans!

  86. One more thing--i never ever planned on 'struggling for year developing a practice.'
    why? because the bogus stats show that is NOT necessary.

    Does the bogus NALP stat showing that well over 90 pct of all law school grads earn about $60K 9 months out of law school lead one to believe that one might need to struggle for years and work side jobs while building a practice? NO!


  87. Homeless lawyer posting from library:

    You and I are both patent attorneys. I’m sorry for your struggle but I welcome you to the profession. You and Nando are right: The law schools are liars. In my above posts, I also have harsh things to say about the law schools albeit for different reasons. You are a victim of the law schools.

    But you are also a victim of the Great Recession. We all are. I used to get countless calls and letters from head hunters. No small firm lawyer ever gets a call from a headhunter, unless he or she is a patent lawyer. I haven’t gotten a call in 2 years. For the first time ever, large firms are laying people off. Every lawyer’s income has diminished in the last 2 years.

    The advice that I would give specifically to you is:
    1. Try to get a job at a large, or boutique, firm as a patent attorney. But in the mean time:
    2. Keep up your patent agent practice, but call yourself a “patent attorney” now. If/when you get a job, bring your clients with you.
    3. Solicit small firms and solos and ask to do their overflow prosecution work and prior art searches.
    4. Don’t be afraid to do computer science consulting on the side.
    5. Try to get patent litigation experience which is where the money is.
    a. DON’T just file a case yourself. You can’t imagine how complicated and dangerous it is.
    b. I get offers from attorneys all the time who are willing to work for me for free in order to learn patent litigation. If you can find a way to learn, do it.
    c. If you can’t learn patent litigation, learn another type of litigation. This has several advantages: First, you will make more money that just doing patent prosecutions. Second, the skills are transferable when, in a few years, you look for a patent job. Federal is better than state (But DON’T file a federal suit without an experience attorney co-counseling) Civil better than criminal; but both are good. Third, your sales skills will improve. Most big firm and patent attorneys that I know, true to stereotype, are bad at sales. Yet this is a crucial skill.

    Don’t misinterpret what I’ve written as saying it will be easy. It will be very difficult. Everything worth doing is. Your goal is to survive the Great Recession, and set yourself up to thrive when the economy improves.

  88. As a 3L (what do I know, right?) I agree with Patent Contingency that too many law grads are still thinking of themselves as "employees." It makes sense because as a student, you have worked in employee roles your whole life. However, I think as a lawyer, you have to have an entreprenuerial mindset where you think of yourself as your own business.

    To be successful, especially as a new lawyer in this economy, I think it takes a lot of ambition and fight. What separates the "employed" from the "unemployed" lawyers are those who embrace that fight as opposed to those who whimper from it.

  89. Hmm. It's interesting that all of these anti-spam blog people showed up at the exact same time.

  90. Tyson:
    Thank you for your gracious comments. Thinking like an entrepreneur is crucial. I think that:
    1. You should try to get a job at a firm that practices the area of law that you are interested in. Only put up a shingle as a last resort. There are many lawyers but each practice area is a small community, and we all know each other. You’ll meet the community in court and at meetings. While being loyal to your boss and your clients, remember that you have not just joined a firm but have joined a community. Get to know the other lawyers who practice in your area. You may make friends who can mentor you and may be your partners in the future.
    2. If you must hang a shingle:
    a. Limit yourself to one, or a few practice areas, in the beginning. Don’t just take anything that comes in the door. Where do law schools get this bullshit idea that a client walks in the door and you’re supposed to do 30 hrs of legal research to learn the field and then represent him (poorly!). That’s just a Legal Writing class exercise. Try residential real estate, traffic and state court misdemeanors. Read the CLEs on these and study your state rules about attorney advertising.
    b. YOU MUST MAKE FRIENDS WITH A LAWYER. When you have a question you need someone to ask. (No you’re not going to do 100hrs of legal research to reinvent the wheel). You’ll see the same faces in court everyday (go even when you don’t have cases). Say Hi and stop for a chat, without being too clingy. Also, join the local bar association. If you have a friend, share money with him on new cases so that he or she can oversee you and offer guidance.
    c. Be careful about trust accounts. If the rules in your jurisdiction let you accept flat fees without use of a trust account, that is good. The easiest way to get in trouble is trust account mismanagement. Law schools barely teach law much less accounting and law firm business management. Yet if you’re not a perfect accountant with the trust account, the Bar will crucify you.

  91. Patent: you wrote, "Limit yourself to one, or a few practice areas, in the beginning. Don’t just take anything that comes in the door."

    How exactly do you propose these new attorneys pay $2000 per month in student loan payments while limiting thier income potential by not accepting everything that comes through the door? Working hard is one thing, economic suicide is another.

  92. anonymous 7:44am: I see your point. How can you not accept everything that comes in the door if you need to make money? I can only speak to my experience and, in my experience, it takes a while to learn how to practice law. (ie accounting, marketing, client management, etc.). It also takes a while to learn each practice area. So unless the new lawyer is very smart and very hardworking, he (or she) may bite off more than he can chew and spend his time putting out fires and being terrified of malpractice. Your question assumes that the lawyer will get his business from just casual social interaction. In reality he should have a targeted marketing plan. To give an example, if I were a brand new lawyer. I'd learn mortgage foreclosure litigation. has a CLE on how to do it. I'd then go to the court clerk, copy pleadings that other lawyers have made, and get a list from the court clerk of all of the people who are being sued for foreclosure. I'd then send everyone a letter saying that I concentrate my practice in this area and leave my cell phone on the letter so that they can contact me immediately. (Check the rules in your jurisdiction to see if they allow mail advertising) At $3k a case, 25 clients will make me $75k. After hopefully saving many people from a deficiency judgment, I'd write in my next marketing letters how I saved people from huge judgments (but don't write their names and verify that local attorney advertising rules allow it). After getting good at this practice area and getting comfortable in court, I might expand to real estate, divorce, bankruptcy, etc.

  93. Much of this sounds like college graduates after the 1992 recession. Lack of computer skills were the major job disqualifier but it was really a mean-spirited tactic of human resource departments to narrow the pool of applicants. The then younger baby boomers were a horde of locusts whom would not get out of the way for another twenty years or so. However, when the economy improved, there were new opportunities and job opportunities ripen with age. Mid-life, mature, very seasoned applicants have a perceived social edge over 20 somethings in the "life experience" department. It shows up on the resume. However, this blog suggests that generational resilency does not exist within the emerging new ranks of the 20 somethings. Crushed hopes might mean they will become "postal" or "falling down" scenarios in the next few months. Maybe they'll become meth users and simply over medicate themselves into oblivion.

  94. Thanks Nando for your continued investigation on these diploma factories.

    The problem that is being created has severe implications on society. The very educational institutions are now devaluing education and making higher learning worthless. This is a deliberate scheme hatched by the Illuminati, the Skull and Bones and the Masons. It is a thick plot designed to turn society on its head and against itself. Soon we the tired and defeated masses will be enslaved to our creditors and the women will be forced to satisfy their ugly needs while the men toil in the mines in a futile effort to repay their debts in precious metals. Children will be plucked from their mothers from birth and whisked away to brainwashing fields designed to instill a love for the law which will replicate the process until the world ends.

  95. I'm not sure if this blog is a joke or not. I've met and worked for successful attorneys that attended NOVA and judges that are adjunct professors at NOVA. I interned for Judges at the 3rd DCA that attended Columbia, Virginia, and Yale who teach at these TTTT schools. I'm not sure if you are from South Florida or not but the majority of Attorney's who occupy prestigious law firms in Downtown Ft. Lauderdale and the surrounding area went to this Dump.

    It's all about who you know and how much you apply yourself, not the piece of paper you get (in TTTT or TTT cases). You can get a great education if you actually apply yourself, and not pray that the school you went to lands you a great job. I know way too many tier 1 (UM, FSU, UF) law graduates who can't find a job at all in South Florida, and they have been searching for a while.

    *As a disclaimer I'm just basing these findings on the South Florida job market and the attorneys I've encountered.*

    If you live in the surrounding area, don't be skewed or deterred by these posts. You can meet tons of successful attorneys if you actually attend the events that these schools offer. Knowing someone who will place in a job you is just as important as getting into a school.

    If you do end up settling on a TTTT or TTT schools then you bet your sweet little ass that you have to work harder than you have ever worked because a TTTT degree won't do you much good if you don't take advantage of what any school has to offer you. Attend every seminar you can, get to know your professors, and work your ass off. If you attend a TTTT or TTT school you can't just fall back on your degree. And in all honesty you should get into one of these lower ranked schools then work your ass off to transfer to a more prestigious school :D It works, that's for damn sure.

    But if you do decide to stay in one of these schools don't fret; you should take advantage of the money you are spending to attend the school of your choice and participate in everything humanly possible.

  96. And how much is this school paying you for that rosy endorsement, Shill?!

    No one expected the school to hand them a job, Idiot. What people did not expect - after investing tons of (borrowed) money plus an additional three years of their lives - was that a JD would be such a barrier to non-legal employment.

    After all, the law school cockroaches were chirping, "You can do anything with a law degree. It is highly versatile and sought after by business entities."

    That is pure nonsense. Then again, the schools and "professors" have a BIG incentive to keep perpetrating the lie.

    Former Biglaw associate attorney - and current pychotherapist - Will Meyerhofer shows CONCLUSIVELY that a law degree is not sought after by non-legal employers. In fact, such employers look on a JD or attorney as highly suspect.

    "But there’s a bigger, broader problem with switching careers when you have the letters JD after your name: people hate lawyers.

    Why do they hate lawyers? A bunch of reasons.

    If you are a real person in the outside world, the word “lawyer” means obstruction. The phrase “run it past Legal” means you might as well give up, ’cause it’s never gonna happen. Exciting business ventures ooze to a standstill like a sabre-toothed tiger in the La Brea Tar Pits. Some risk-adverse dweeb in a suit will spout dire warnings to you about unlikely contingencies until nothing seems like it’s any fun anymore.

    Lawyer means pretentious – socially awkward losers with fancy degrees telling you what to do when they’ve never run a business in their lives."

    Also, US News reports that the average student indebtedness for those members of the Nova JD Class of 2009 who incurred law school debt was $109,575. Furthermore, 85% of this unfortunate graduating class took on NON-DISCHARGEABLE students loans for law school.

    Do you feel that people should take out such extensive, toxic debt, because they can work their ass off and make it? This is not probable for most of this commode’s class. If you are considering law school, do not be persuaded by self-interested pigs, such as the person above.

  97. STOP the negativity toward the Law students and Nova, I personally know two wealthy Lawyers who graduated from Nova. Pre- Law students follow your dreams and never give up. make your mark and have the courage and knowlege to strive forward. My daughter is a Pre- Law student at Nova and i only hope to God she doesn't read all the negative BULLSHIT in these blogs.....A PROUD PARENT.

  98. At August 30, 2011 5:39 pm,

    Spoken like a true moron. You CLEARLY do not have a clue about the legal job market. If your daughter is attending this festering dung heap, as an undergrad, then you must be a clueless Boomer, i.e. Generation Greed.

    My wife’s father falls into this type of “magical thinking,” as well. He earned a BS from Kansas State University, in the 1970s. According to his recollection, he paid about $300 in tuition - per semester. “My books were about as expensive as tuition.” Keep in mind that he was an OUT-OF-STATE student!! He worked odd-jobs, in order to meet his tuition and board. Try doing that today, bitch, in a world of SKYROCKETING tuition. If you cannot imagine doing so, then keep your stupid mouth shut.

    "STOP the negativity toward the Law students and Nova, I personally know two wealthy Lawyers who graduated from Nova."

    This school is further flooding the legal job market. Florida is one of the most oversaturated lawyer job markets, in the nation! (According to National Center for Education Statistics, Florida is the 8th most glutted state, for attorneys.) In the process, this school is consigning many of its grads, to a lifetime of debt servitude. Furthermore, many administrators and “professors” are making handsome salaries, off this scam. And you want me to stop being negative towards this pile of waste?!?! Go jump in traffic, cockroach.

    The law schools MANIPULATE their employment and salary figures - for the purpose of attracting more applicants and paying customers, i.e. students. But how can these valid charts, graphs, links, news articles and industry statements compete with your personal, unsubstantiated claims?!?! After all, you (allegedly) know two wealthy lawyers who graduated from this worthless dung pile.

    By the way, why did you capitalize the word “lawyer,” moron? Also, did it ever occur to you that the legal job market has changed significantly in the last 10-20 years? Did that thought ever penetrate your little brain, mental deficient?!

    "Pre- Law students follow your dreams and never give up. make your mark and have the courage and knowlege to strive forward."

    If your daughter dreams of being a lawyer, then YOU have failed as a parent. Who the hell dreams of such a dreary career? Creative people want to become artists, musicians, painters, actors, dancers, recording agents, etc. Young people, with physical gifts, desire to play shortstop for the New York Yankees.

    Lastly, learn how to correctly spell “knowledge.” It is not a difficult word, cretin.

    According to NALP, the JD Class of 2010 had 44,258 members. However, only 28,167 jobs required bar passage. (Not all of these were traditional attorney positions, ass-hat.) This means that only 63.64 percent of this class ended up finding employment in which a law license was required. Furthermore, only 25,654 of these positions are full-time.

  99. Nando, I was accepted into Nova. I've read all of this post, and I am currently debating whether to take a personal banker job or go to law school. Is Nova's reputation is FL still horrible? Out of the many law schools in Nova, where does it rank as far as finding a job making enough money to pay back the astronomical amount of loans that I will incur? Lastly, do you know much about FIU Law?

    P.S. I am about to graduate undergrad with roughly $20,000 of debt.

  100. There bar passage rates have been higher recently, half of all JD graduates in the country cannot find employment. Unless you are in the upper 50% of graduates your chances are slim for employment. I attended Nova and luckily dropped out early on before incurring too much debt. Others dropped out in subsequent years with huge debt and no degree. I know more than one graduate from Nova without employment as actual lawyers. Could you go there and be successful, possibly. But Florida has many established lawyers already and you would have to excel there and stand out

  101. you forgot to mention the law students who had nothing better to do than install hidden web cams in classmates' rooms and bathrooms and maybe professors' offices. listen to these conversations.

  102. Well, according to the site, they also taped minors, which I believe makes their actions a felony.

  103. I think recording themselves talking about videotaping a naked girl is criminal enough. Check out lawyer alexis brown-gelb from nova law discussing her nsu law activities

  104. This school should be renamed Nova Southeastern Law Skool for Retards. No one with a brain would even consider this shithole.

  105. Dog shit > Nova SE law school

  106. I don't know if this is true, but it was on another site about a former NSU law student/criminal, current lawyer/criminal about illegal behavior done by him and his old NSU law classmates: "Is this the same David Di Pietro that is an alleged criminal voyeur who goes around bragging about his perverted behavior and saying it would be a stupid reason to be disbarred? There are accusations all over the place, online and otherwise, including a leaked e-mail from him in which he responded to a question about his behavior by saying that he, his family, and his colleagues should not be contacted about this. He ended his response with the word "Understood?" which, knowing David Di Pietro, seems to be an implied threat. Here is one site that mentions this: Click on "Full Song Info" for each "song" and you will get more information, including a copy of that e-mail.

    1. It's all the internet about this David Di Pietro.. How did this start and was a complaint filed? Anyone know?

  107. Nano is correct. The law market is very over-saturated and has been for many years. We are producing more attorneys than there are available jobs. Not only are regional firms cutting back but the Biglaws have been cutting back for years. If you want to go to law school, I would incorporate the suggestions Nano mentioned above, along with having a plan for what you do.
    When it comes down to it, it’s really about your situation and what you want to do with your law degree. Yes, it is important to get in with a top 20 law school if you want the chances of practicing outside of your state and for you to have the opportunity to grow with a top reputable firm. But keep in mind, even if you are able to attend a top school, you need to strive to be in the top 5-10 percentile. Networking and who you know also plays a tremendous factor in terms of obtaining jobs.

    But there are also people in my situation….

    Law school has been a dream of mine since I was very young. After I graduated from my undergrad, I was accepted into UCLA law school. I didn’t attend. Why? Because I simply did not know what area of law I wanted to practice. I had a vague idea that I wanted to practice in the corporate industry but I didn’t have a clear elaborate plan to get there.

    I didn’t know enough to get myself in over a $100,000 of debt. I knew the job market after law school was horrible and to be quite honest, if I got myself into a financial crunch, I had nobody to help me out of it. My parents didn’t have the means to help and I was very much aware of my situation. So I went back to school to study accounting. I choose accounting because I needed a backup plan just in case law school did not work out for me. The accounting industry has always been stable and the pay is not too bad. Afterwards, I attended a 3rd tier law school. I attended a third tier because I knew exactly which company I wanted to work for and the law school I attended had the exact resources I needed to proceed with my plan. It was also cheaper and offered a night program. I ended up securing a position with the second biggest accounting firm in the world where I can utilize both my accounting and law skills.

    My advice to others who are interested in law school would be ….

    Please don’t rush into law school to just go to law school.
    Please understand that many people who attend law school are unable to secure good positions.
    Please be open minded when reading Nanos blog because these facts he points out are very true (somewhat a little outdated though since he posted it back in 2010 and its 2014 now).
    The law market is very much oversaturated.
    Law school is very competitive and can tear any person down.

    Please have a plan for after law school.
    and please, be realistic about your situation. Especially if you do not come for a family who can financially support your aspirations. Because it makes it real tough to make it without the means of that kind of support.
    But! It is possible. When you are passionate about something, you will stand out because you can’t compete with passion. When you refuse to take no for an answer, when you strategically plan where you want to end up, it is very much possible to make it.


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