Thursday, June 10, 2010

Overflowing, Obscure Toilet: Barry University School of Law



The TTR Express is now making an extended stay in the Sunshine State. Florida is a great place to visit, but it is home to eleven ABA-accredited law schools. Of these, the highest-ranked school is the University of Florida at 47 – according to US News & World Report. That is the good news. The state has one TTT, Stetson University COL in Gulfport, and SEVEN fourth tier pieces of trash. You read that right – there are indeed 7 TTTTs in Florida. So grab your beach sandals, some swimming trunks/swimsuit, and plenty of sunscreen – we are headed to the $un$hine $TTTTaTTTTe!! Today’s destination is Orlando, home to Barry Univer$iTTTTy $chool of Law!

http://www.barry.edu/law/future/AboutUs/default.htm

“PURPOSE: The primary purpose of Barry University, as stated in the Charter, is to offer its students a quality education. Furthermore, Barry University commits itself to assuring a religious dimension and to providing community service and presence within a more caring environment.”

http://www.barry.edu/law/future/FinancialServices/Cost.htm

Tuition: Yeah, this school cares so much about fostering a sense of community service in its students that it only charges them $32,650, in full-time tuition, for the 2010-2011 school year. Part-time law students at Barry University Sewer of Law only pay $24,640 for the same academic year. I guess the school feels that the best way for lawyers to represent poor people is for them to be in the same economic bracket as their clients.

Total Cost of Attendance: This festering stink pit is nice enough to provide estimated living expenses – for the 2008-2009 academic year! They estimate that room/board, books, personal and transportation costs will add another $24,150 (in 2008-2009) to the tab. Hell, if the cost of living has not gone up in Orlando over the last two years, that would still bring the total COA for a full-time law student at Barry to $56,800 for a single school year.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/rankings/page+6

Ranking: Surely, the school’s reputation will make up for the high cost of attendance right? What’s that you say? Barry Univer$iTTTTy $chool of Law is in fourth tier wasteland?! Damn! Well, maybe it will float up to the third tier, when USN&WR’s law school rankings come out next year.

http://www.barry.edu/law/future/CareerServices/default.htm

Employment and Salary Figures: Look at the extent of the info provided by Barry’s Career Services Office. I guess you can only expect so much, if you are spending a mere $32,650 on a single year of “legal education.”

“Career Services maintains an extensive online database, which contains job postings, fellowship and internship opportunities, resume and cover letter writing guides and samples, salary information, links to career-related websites, and various other resources.

The CSO library, located in our office suite, is available to students and contains a wide variety of publications and resource materials on career issues and self-assessment, alternative career paths, interviewing techniques and many other subjects. In addition, we maintain a number of directories listing attorneys, firms, corporate counsel, and public interest and governmental organizations. The library also houses a computer, printer and fax machine for student use, at no charge if directly related to job searching.”

No placement figures or info on starting salary for recent graduates. Wow! The law school houses a computer, printer and fax machine for student use in finding employment. It even maintains a number of directories. I’ll bet they even have running water and restrooms. This MUST be a prominent law school, after all!

http://www.barry.edu/law/future/AcademicProgram/EarthJurisprudence.htm

Well, at least you can take part in the toilet’s “Center for Earth Jurisprudence”, where you can take on climate change and “support the well-being of the entire Earth community.”

Conclusion: Barry is an embarrassment to American “legal education”. Of course, that did not stop the racketeer influenced and corrupt organization known as the ABA from approving this dump site as a law school. Save yourself $180K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE student loan debt – plus a lifetime of agony and debt servitude – and pass on this commode. Frankly, if this is the best school you can get into, then you need to keep your job and work towards earning a promotion; you might even want to make some industry contacts. Or, if you ABSOLUTELY must go to law school, then re-take the LSAT and try to get into one of the top public schools in the state.

Do not fall into the following mind trap: “If I never go, I will regret it for the rest of my life.” (Why not tell yourself the same thing if you don’t try out for the NFL or audition for the lead in the next Hollywood blockbuster? Because NFL teams are in desperate need of slow, non-athletic white guys who can run a 6.4 second, 40-yard dash, right? Plus, surely you can sell more movie tickets and popcorn than Robert Downey, Jr. or Bruce Willis.) Listen, you WILL REGRET taking on too much non-dischargeable debt for a worthless law degree that lands you a job as a greeter for Disneyworld. Get the picture?

116 comments:

  1. One of my law school classmates is working at Borders Books. Another as a grocery clerk. Another at a call center (me). Another telemarketing. Another substitute teaching. Another...yadda yadda yadda.....
    2 years out...
    Those are the fruits of the TTT law school scam.
    Beware the law school scam, kids....

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    Replies
    1. I went to Barry and was hired three days after passing the Florida Bar exam. I agree that the tuition is out of control and my student loan repayment is outrageous. That being said, I was provided a good education and passed every part of the bar exam by more than enough points. It is unfair to the current students and alumni to make some of these comments. I always recommend going to a public law school now but not because of the education but because of the student loans.

      Delete
  2. Sweet heaven! What is that image on this entry? it's my fault for reading TTR while eating a bowl of Cheerios (still uneaten). Thanks Nando. Love the writing, though. Could you maybe use less disgustign imagery.

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  3. Kahless the UnforgeTTTableJune 10, 2010 at 5:12 AM

    Well, at least you can take part in the toilet’s “Center for Earth Jurisprudence”, where you can take on climate change and “support the well-being of the entire Earth community.”

    But I wanted to focus on a concentration in Klingon Law. Barry University is without honor!

    Qapla!

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  4. What a loser. How about considering getting a life dude?

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  5. Awesome post!! I love the "we have a computer and fax machine". Well done :)

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  6. Unbelievable. I'd never even heard of this place. What a gruesome introduction.

    "Frankly, if this is the best school you can get into, then you need to keep your job and work towards earning a promotion; you might even want to make some industry contacts."

    If you're unemployed, you're still better off avoiding this place, even if they do have a fax machine.

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  7. Way too many lawyers in Florida, which probably has room for 3-4 law schools. (I went to the one TTT, but no debt.) Anway, I have plenty of horror stories. One guy I know has over 150K in debt from FCSL (Coastal) making about 40k at the Office of the State Attorney, and he's probably one of the lucky ones. The SAO and PD usually are hiring where I live, but start you off at 39k.

    I graduated in 97 and have worked in the public sector last 10years making just over 50. Have plenty of colleagues from UF also just keeping head above water.

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  8. I have to laugh - back in 2000, when I was applying to law schools, I got a random pamphlet in the mail from Barry University. I was living in Texas at the time. I remember going "Barry? Who? Unaccredited? WTF? How did they get my name and address?"

    That did not stop me for falling for the scam, unfortunately. I wish the Barry ad was the neon sign I needed to run for the hills...

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  9. Great photo!

    Also, I'm a bit jealous, as my school did not have a fax machine.

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  10. How about Charleston Law?

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  11. Was this law school named after our President? If so, the picture of the toilet with overflowing feces and urine accurately portrays his policies.

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  12. "I'll bet they even have running water and restrooms."

    LOL

    Keep up the good work, Nando.

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  13. Law schools do not give a damn what happens to their graduates. They got theirs already. Remember, these swine get paid in full at the beginning of semester. You, the law graduate, are stuck with the bill for the next 25-30 years. Try to miss a payment and see what happens to you. (If a bailout/forgiveness occurs, then the taxpayer is on the hook.) The moment a class receives its diplomas, the law schools move onto the next group of victims, i.e. their next incoming class.

    The American Bar Association clearly DOES NOT care about the plight of current law students and recent law graduates. Why else would these pigs continue to approve any building with a bathroom, some bookshelves and a working phone line as a law school – when there are already over 200 law schools in operation? (Actually, I guess all you need is a computer, a printer and a fax machine to satisfy the ABA’s requirements.) Why else would the ABA permit U.S. law firms to outsource American legal discovery work to foreign attorneys and non-lawyers? See ABA “Ethics” Opinion 08-451.

    To the apologist cockroaches out there, i.e. 5:39 am and his ilk: if you want to be taken seriously, you need to back up your argument with the facts – instead of relying on ad hominem attacks, straw men, empty platitudes, etc. Grow a backbone. If you are a “law professor” and you take issue with the points I make in this blog, you can email me and we can set up a panel discussion on the state of the legal industry and American “legal education.” Would that interest you? Or would you rather read some arcane law review articles and peruse law-related stories on law.com, from the comfort of your little office?

    I am glad you guys enjoy this blog. Honestly, I simply use the statements of the law schools to show how desperate they are for more warm bodies in seats – I don’t imagine I will run out of material. Yes, now if only Barry University Sewer of Law can get some bookshelves, a front desk, and some toilet paper dispensers, the school will be on the fast-track to the third tier!!

    These images are disgusting and gross, but NOT nearly as reprehensible and audacious as the law school industry’s tactics. These schools; the ABA; NALP; law school parasites, such as study aid vendors and bar prep profit centers; and their friends in the media provide a COMPLETELY FALSE PICTURE of the state of the legal industry. They do so in order to dupe more young people into applying and enrolling into these diploma mills.

    Right now, we are seeing Ivy League grads who cannot find paid legal work. How the hell can TTTs and TTTTs continue to publish employment placement rates of 96.2% with median starting salaries of $76K?!?! They are flat-out lying. These stats are NOT confirmed or verified by NALP or the ABA. These numbers are NOT submitted to the rigors of an independent, outside audit. And the schools themselves DO NOT bother to check out the figures given to them by their recent graduates. You could tell the CDO that you earned $750,000 and the school will take your word as gospel.

    http://www.law.uiowa.edu/documents/cso_stats_2008.pdf

    http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/2009/12/open-letter-to-iowas-law-dean-and-her.html

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  14. Nando - please create a menu on the right which lists all the TTTs you have profiled for easy access to new readers.

    Keep up the good work!

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  15. Dude, you got some kind of obsession with toilets and feces.

    BTW, everyone knows if you have below average grades at a below average law school, you're screwed on the job market. Why didn't you???

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  16. I've never heard of this school. And I agree with anon @ 8:43am that you should create a menu that allows us to look at all the TTTs you've covered.

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  17. Does the fax machine at Barry really work? It didn't work at my law school. Perhaps my life would be different if I had only gone to Barry.

    Is Barry University one of those for-profit Wall Street-backed institutions that are popping up like weeds across the country?

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  18. Nando, you really outdid yourself with this toilet photo. A nice action shot!

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  19. "Does the fax machine at Barry really work? It didn't work at my law school. Perhaps my life would be different if I had only gone to Barry."

    I LoL'd. A computer AND fax?!?! Oh my stars!

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  20. your local unemployment office will also have a computer. They won't have a fax machine, because NO ONE USES FAX MACHINES ANYMORE. When you're done with Flor-duh do Santa Clara SOL next! Isn't it great that School of Law and Shit outta Luck have the same acronym?

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  21. Midlaw partner here to chime in and say that Florida law schools produce soft (unlike the hard pictured above) excrement-like quality of attorneys. When we receive cover letters and resumes from Florida law grads, we instruct the mailroom to shred any letter with a return address containing a zip code starting in 32, 33 or 34 and the title "managing" or "hiring" partner be shredded as there is no need to waste time in opening the envelope.

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    Replies
    1. ...And yet I guarantee you couldn't win a case against me unless the facts were strongly in your favor...Your comment is far past the line of ignorance if you truly believe what you say. I highly doubt you are a partner at any firm with that mentality.

      Delete
  22. I don't even know why I am studying for the bar. In two months I will forever abandon this profession and never look back. Can't wait to start over. What a fucking joke.

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  23. Since you're in the Sunshine State, will you stop over in Jax and visit Florida Coastal, then the booming legal market of Naples, now the home of Ave Maria "Dominoes Pizza" nut job Monihan School of Law? But be kind to Nova SE, I know some grads who do very well.

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  24. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_O._Andreas_School_of_Law#History

    “Mr. [Neil R.] Euliano, who had operated for-profit trade schools starting in 1982, established the non-profit University of Orlando in 1993 and its law school in 1995. The University of Orlando started its inaugural law school class on Sept. 18 1995. The first year the law school had only evening and weekend courses and a full time faculty of four professors.[3] The charter class began their studies at the for-profit Florida Technical College's campus.

    The law school applied for A.B.A. accreditation in 1998. The A.B.A. visited the law school campus on March 1, 1998. Later in March 1998, the board of trustees removed the law school's Dean, Wallace M. Rudolph and appointed Stanley M. Talcott, a faculty member, as the law school's third dean. [4] In July 1998 the A.B.A. denied the law school's application for accreditation.

    Mr. Euliano resigned from the University of Orlando in September 1998, after a consultant concluded that its law school would stand a better chance of getting accredited if he left. Mr. Euliano, was advised that his dual role as the school's main financial backer and the university's president may be as a conflict of interest. The dean of the university's business school, Dr. James L. Chase, was appointed to serve as the university's interim president.[5]

    Barry University of Orlando School of Law reapplied for accreditation and received a new A.B.A. inspection in October 1999. On February 17, 2001 the A.B.A. Council for the Section on Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar rejected the school's second accreditation bid. On June 4, 2001, the A.B.A.'s Council for the Section on Legal Education refused Barry's request to reconsider the application that they, the council, rejected in February, 2001.[9]

    The Law School was fully incorporated into Barry University and became Barry University School of Law. The A.B.A. agreed to reconsider the October 2000 application[10] however on December 3rd 2001 the A.B.A. again rejected the school's accreditation.

    On July 1, 2003 former Florida Coastal School of Law Dean J. Richard Hurt became the dean of Barry University's Dwayne O. Andreas School of Law.[12]”

    The school’s application was DENIED THREE TIMES by the ABA. Anyone still want to defend this festering pile of crap – or tell me that this is a wise investment?!?! The board of directors had to remove the dean, in March 1998. The school was started by an owner of for-profit trade schools. The guy recognizes a diploma mill when he sees one, I suppose. He then had to be removed, due to a conflict of interest. (Apparently, the ABA does not care if you are the dean of NYLS and the chair of Access Group at the same time, i.e. Richard Matasar.) In July 2003, the dean of a for-profit law school - part of the Infilaw Empire – was named dean at Barry University Sewer of Law. Wow! What an illustrious history. I can’t imagine why it is only listed as a fourth tier trash can.

    http://www.infilaw.com/

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  25. Nando,

    Too many people wrongly think a law degree is a sure path to a solid income--it's not. At the cost of $150,000 (and three years lost earnings), it is a bad investment for many.

    Graduates of lower ranked schools face especially long odds, as you point out again and again.

    I'm a law professor. That makes me one of the bad guys--a participant the "law school scam." But it wasn't always this way. When I began teaching fifteen years ago a law degree could be obtained at a reasonable price. Not any more.

    Your blog provides an importance service in educating people about the reality of the situation. I hope readers listen to your message.

    Brian Tamanaha

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  26. Wow, if I had known about the fax machine, I would have applied to Barry instead of my Tier 2.

    Good luck Barry grads...it's going to take more than a fax machine and a few outdated directories to get you employed.

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  27. my friend is going to law school in minnesota. given that there are 4 law schools there, three of which are toilets and one of which is ranked 20, i'm praying to god that she is going to the school ranked 20.

    sorry, i know this is irrelevant to the post but i just had to say it somewhere.

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  28. What about Northern Illinois University- school of law? Can you talk about that school please?

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  29. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7060

    TLS Topic: “Is Barry a decent law school?”

    This is an old post from April 2007, but the original poster had a dilemma. He was allegedly accepted to several schools, but narrowed his choice down to Barry TTTT and Washburn TTT in Topeka, KS – with Barry being closer to home.

    Here is the response from user 06072010:

    “I'm from Orlando, so let me give you the scoop on Barry. Before I get going, I actually looked at Barry when I started the whole law school thing because I could live at home and go to law school for damn near free - so I'm not just talking out of my ass.

    Barry blows. I know several faculty members, and they're quality people. They can teach the law. They're witty and informative and all around great professors. They graduated from the usual suspects (T14), which I think speaks to the high competitiveness in law academia, and less about the draw power of the school.

    Have you been able to visit? The most exciting part of the phone-booth -sized campus are the vending machines. I think Barry is located is an extremely dumpy section of town. Parking is in dirt lots. Hiring prospects are grim. The tuition is obscene. All else fails and you want to be in O-town, go to FAMU - yeah, it's provisional, but it's also 8g's. FAMU is on the fast track for full accreditation. Who cares about bar pass rate? It's job prospects that make or break the day, and Barry just doesn't cut it. UF. arguably the best school in the state, doesn't even get much portability, so Barry is going to limit you to Florida - big time.

    You really should visit and see for yourself before making a decision. Meet with the professors and talk with students. That's a lot of debt for those kind of job prospects.”

    I suppose there is some logic allowed on TLS. Barry is a joke. The response notes that even a law degree from the University of Florida is not very portable. Lemmings talk about bar passage rates. Well, passing the bar, per se, does not pay one’s bills, put food in your fridge or keep a roof over your head. Paying jobs allow one to do these things.

    One is still left to wonder how a school with a computer, printer, fax machine, AND exciting vending machines cannot crack the top three tiers of American law schools. Perhaps USN&WR’s criteria are too strict?

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  30. Nando, you are a loser.

    Yes, that is an "ad hominem attack, a straw man, and an empty platitude" all wrapped into one. Are there any other rhetorical fallacies you accuse me of violating?

    In the meantime, while you are busy searching google images for R-rated toilets and overflowing fecal matter to place on your next post, I'll get right to work on scheduling that panel discussion featuring you and various law professors.

    Sincerely,

    A "shill" and an "industry apologist"

    ReplyDelete
  31. Don't forget to include "ball-less wonder" under your job description, guy. I sure hope the industry pays you enough to shill for them. It is okay for schools to screw people over for life, but it makes you squirm to see these dumps equated with toilets. OK, queasy.

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  32. Shill,

    Please include both Brian Tamanaha and Nando on your panel.

    Tx

    ReplyDelete
  33. http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=120236

    TLS Discussion: "Should I go to Nova Southeastern or Barry Law?" from user "seija"

    "I got accepted to both these law schools, and I am actually quite relieved, given that I graduated with a 2.33 cummulative GPA. Anyway, Barry is offering me a 17k scholarship, and yes I am very aware that they give money out like candy, but still, half tuition is nothing to scoff at. Yet Nova Southeastern seems like a more solid choice, but I don't think I'll be getting a dime from them. Given that these are 4T schools, will it really make much of a difference if I choose to go to Barry or Nova?

    I am just a bit reluctant because a lot of people say that Barry is a joke, which I find a bit unsettling; but, then again Nova does not have the best reputation either. If anyone has any thoughts or comments, please post. Any constructive advice would be greatly appreciated."

    See what we are up against? Pre-law lemmings are CONVINCED that they will excel at their TTTT, regardless of the fact that they could only muster a 2.33 UGPA. At least, some of the TLS posters are trying to talk some sense into this kid. (It will probably not penetrate his dense skull; he is committed to the idea of becoming a lawyer, after all.)

    To the industry apologist: presuming you are not a delusional lemming like "seija" at TLS - and you actually have some connections - go ahead and set up such a panel. Also, invite some deans and at least one honest member of the academy, i.e. William Henderson, Erik Gerding, Herwig Schlunk or Brian Tamanaha. Also, make sure to take a wet rag and wipe away your tears. Reality is harder for some people to accept.

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  34. Why don't you go after the top 14 schools and make them out to be toilets?

    IF you can make even those schools shit, then it should go without saying that all those below it are also shit.

    It'll save you a lot of time, and c'mon...it's gettin' old already!

    People are gonna keep paying their tuition (most with borrowed money, of course)... and how much venting do you need before you're gassed out?

    Theodore

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  35. Nando, keep up the good work. Last night I attended an alumni function at my alma mater law school and while talking with one of the deans, I mentioned this site. You should have seen the look on the dean's face as his inital reaction. He denied ever hearing of this site but his expression gave him away. I am convinced you are getting under the skin of many industry shills. Unfortunately, when you go to a website such as TLS, you realize that you are waging an unwinnable war. There are too many TTT undergrad students that have "always dreamed" of becoming a lawyer. Given the low standards of the ABA and the TTT schools, that dream can be achieved for anyone at the right cost. By the way, is it true that Brooklyn Law and Queen Wexler approved a tuition increase which now places BLS at $46K per year? The law school scam seems to be steamrolling ahead.

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  36. I went on TLS this afternoon, and found a thread started by someone deciding between Barry and Nova SE. I was impressed by many posters who argued against going to either school. No one was encouraging the OP to attend. That is a good sign. One poster cited this thread at TTR. Keep up the good work Nando!

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  37. You bloggers are correct about the scam but are too harsh on victims who make the same mistake we made. There's more info out there now (thanks to you), but we all knew long ago that there were too many lawyers. What else are prospective law students supposed to do? I often regret my decision to go to law school, but I don't know what else I should have done. Many recent grads with "in-demand" degrees in nursing and teaching can't find jobs, and I'm sure potential carpenters, plumbers, etc. are having similar trouble. My view is we're all in this hell together, so let's try to find a solution. Many blogs expose the law school scam (kudos to you for warning others), but none mention the obvious lawyerly solution: SUE. If you're sure that the schools mislead on employment prospects, why not sue for fraud (or unfair trade practices)? Can't the real numbers be accessed by subpoena or FOIA request? I'm considering starting a law firm practicing in this type of practice and would appreciate your thoughts.

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  38. Nando, IF YOU FEEL WRONGED, THEN WHY DON'T YOU SUE? Or can you not make a case? Perhaps you think the courts are "in on it" too? Oh, I get it - its all a big conspiracy.

    Besides, how do you explain the numerous people (7 or 8) I personally know who are recent TTTT law grads who were ALL employed in law firms within about five months of graduation?

    Employment stats may be grim, but so what... You don't need to land 10,000 jobs...you just need to land one job.

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  39. It was inevitable. I knew as soon as Nando started his review of TTT he would eventually come to my school. Yes, I went to Barry University School of Law. It is embarrassing to admit; I know. But, I am not a Cooley or Appalachian grad! There is a reason to be optimistic.

    * * *

    Here is some history. In 1998, Barry University Law School was originally the Univ of Orlando School of Law. It was founded and owned by Dr Euliano as a for profit law school. This Law School was turned down for provisional accreditation by the ABA Site team. To say that the ABA and Dr Euliano did not get along was an understatement. The ABA did not like the idea of for profit Law Schools. If you are not familiar with the ABA accreditation process, then you may not know you must have one class in place to have an ABA site team visit. The Fla Supreme Court allows for one year gap between when you graduate and your school receives ABA accreditation. Nevada allows a three-year gap. So, the pressure was on to get ABA accreditation. It was unlikely that the Fla Supreme Court would allow Barry Grads to take the Fla Bar without ABA accreditation. This act would set a precedent the Court did not want. You can imagine things were nervous. OK, too much history. Long story made short, Barry University purchased the Law School, and it managed to attain ABA accreditation. This soap opera lead to a great deal of bad press stories, most needless. It also led to the Orlando City Govt pushing and helping FAMU’s new law school over Barry. I still don’t know why FAMU decided it needed a Law School.

    * * *

    Nando made some very good comments some correct and some incorrect:
    Correct:
    - Barry University is an expensive private school. A cheaper public and private education can be found.
    - Barry University Career Services is abysmal. The original Career Services director needed to be replaced. She was a nice person and later became and Law instructor. Unfortunately, nice doesn’t count. Also, one dedicated person (also teaching a side class) and assistant (shared); you need more people. This leads to the fact there are few OCIs and fewer OCIs with good firms.
    - Barry University needs to rethink its “religious focus” and “earth jurisprudence focus” themes. It was original focus was supposed to be Entertainment Law and Law practice themes. This was believable with four major studios in town. Later, it then it switched focus to Immigration Law. Now, it switched to this. It needs focus!
    - The Law School campus is four main building and additional trailers. They do function to meet the needs. But, they are not aesthetically pleasing.
    Incorrect:
    - Barry University cost of living is high but understandable. Why? Similar to the Miami schools, Stetson, Fla Coastal, and Fla Int’l, they are located in an urban area, thus expensive. There was no cheap on campus student housing at the Orlando Campus when I attended.
    - Barry has a “very high Bar Passage Rate” compared to other state schools. How much is due to Barbri, Micromash, and PMBR I can’t say.
    - Barry does produce respectable Moot Court Teams and Trail Teams.
    - Barry is putting some money into it physical plant and getting new additional buildings. Hurricanes and trailers don’t mix.
    - The Main Barry University has been around since the 1940s. Although the Law School is new, the main university does have some academic prowess.

    Since graduation, I have come to be a very bottom-line type of person. Barry University did prepare me well for the Bar Exam. But, the career services office is abysmal. Further, the tuition cost is too much. If you have the option: First, choose a different career path. Ok! I tried. The legal jobs are in India not here. Second, try for Univ of Florida or Fla State. They are cheaper and offer better career prospects. This simple formula works: go state or go T10 or don’t go!

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  40. To my knowledge, Florida has 10 Law Schools: University of Florida, Florida State, Florida Coastal, Stetson University, Barry University, FAMU, Ave Maria (formally of Detroit), Florida International, University of Miami, and St Thomas. I don’t know about the 11th school. There was talk about starting one in Ft Myers. I don’t know why! It is true that Fla has a large population. But, it’s economy can’t support 10 Law Schools.

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  41. http://esqnever.blogspot.com/2010/06/response-to-commenters.html#comments

    Tyson, I can see that you have latched onto the industry’s latest talking point, i.e. “If the schools are a scam, then why not sue?” Check out the comments on Esq. Never’s recent post, regarding filing suit against law schools. Also, look at the case I cited in my comment to that thread. Research Todd C. Bank v. Brooklyn Law School. Admittedly, he should not have filed suit under RICO, but he did have a cause of action for fraud and misrepresentation – based on the law school’s false employment and starting salary figures. The federal court threw out his first case, and the state court tossed his state claims. Bank did not survive the school’s MSJ in either forum. Those judges simply were not interested in hearing such a case. Has much changed since then – or do judges still have law degrees? You think these guardians of the legal community want to embarrass the industry?!?!

    Go ahead and read those cases. Look at the flimsy rationale. These judges – as all politicians in black robes do - obviously reached their conclusion FIRST and then decided to find some legal justification for their (political) decision. Is that a big surprise to you? Are you not aware that those politicians in the black robes will do whatever they can to defend the status quo? Have you ever come across a case where the judges performed legal gymnastics to reach an asinine ruling?

    What you are asking us to do is tantamount to asking someone who is robbed by a thief to file suit and have their case heard before a Mafioso judge and a panel of jurors – consisting entirely of convicts. Yeah, you have great odds of winning in that forum, don’t you? I guess you need to go with the next talking point that is spoon-fed to you by the law school cartel.

    Wow! You allegedly know 7 or 8 people who graduated from fourth tier trash cans, and they were all supposedly working in law firms within 5 months of graduation. Perhaps, you knew the kids who were on law review – or those with strong personal and business connections. HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE FACT THAT IVY LEAGUE LAW GRADS ARE GOING WITHOUT WORK?! Would you assume/argue that they did not work hard enough?

    Lastly, no one is saying they need to land 10,000 jobs. Where did you read that? Any more mindless platitudes, you model of “critical thinking”? You have the mentality that it is okay for law schools to produce way too many graduates, i.e. “If those losers can’t find a job, that’s their problem.” Actually, it becomes society’s problem as legions of talented, ambitious, intelligent young people cannot afford to start families, get married or purchase homes. At this rate, the bulk of future births will come from wealthy people and those on welfare. How does that bode for the future of this nation? Or do I need to draw that scenario up in the form of a law school fact pattern, so that you might comprehend it?

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  42. 7:12am: Whatever! If our nation's students are buried under debt, can't start families, or purchase homes, then such a problem extends FAR beyond that of lawyers. It probably extends to the entire economy and reaches the vast majority of our country. If our generation sees a decline in a standard of living, then that is a macroeconomic problem and not your law school's fault.

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  43. Complaining about the lack of jobs is easier than actually working.

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  44. "Complaining about the lack of jobs is easier than actually working."

    Really? Is not being able to find a job "easier" on one's sense of self worth? Is it "easier" when the mortgage payment is due? Is it "easier" when your family needs groceries?

    And, needless to say, it's very possible for one to be "actually working" a real job AND write a blog critical of the legal profession. Happens all the time.

    ReplyDelete
  45. quoting tyson:

    "Whatever! [unmitigated bullshit]"

    WHat stellar logic! What compelling reasoning! You must have attended a top law school.

    ReplyDelete
  46. quoting 9:30am:

    Nice to complain about the lack of compelling reasoning, yet fail to provide any yourself to the rest of the comment.

    ReplyDelete
  47. @Tyson: You make a legitimate point when you say that there's a problem with finding white-collar work generally. Indeed, perhaps forty years ago, many of the desperate young people now at law school would have found a white-collar job immediately after their bachelor's degree. Those jobs have been disappearing for a generation and the competition for those that are left has become intense. The point that Nando and other like-minded souls are trying to make perhaps is that TTT and TTTT law schools are exploiting that desperation to con people into buying a flawed and meretricious product that will merely get them deep into debt and not enhance their career or salary prospects in any manner. And this con means exaggerating, lying, misrepresenting -- you name the manner of deceit.

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  48. It's most curious how any counterarguments to this blog are labeled as "platitudes," "strawmen," or from an "industry shill." The blog's creator acts as if his views are the gospel truth. All readers should be aware that there are two sides to every argument - something taht the author should more often recount from law school.

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  49. @9:48am: "TTT and TTTT law schools are exploiting that desperation to con people into buying a flawed and meretricious product that will merely get them deep into debt and not enhance their career or salary prospects in any manner."

    I disagree. Law schools are only doing the same thing they have done for the entire past century: Educating. That is their ONLY obligation and there was never any deal to give out jobs at graduation. It is not a scam. I agree that attendance costs are OUTRAGEOUS, but that's true of all education. I think the blog's author complaints are more appropriately directed to education in general, and now your getting into the real of the theoretical.

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  50. *realm of the theoretical.

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  51. Tyson-

    You make a couple good points but I strongly disagree with 3 things.

    1) Perhaps traditionally and to you (obviously) schools dont promise a job. However, most elite at elite schools expect that sort of thing based on the money being paid in tuition. In other words, there appears to be an unwritten implicit promise to provide value for the tuition charged. How else can value be commodatized other than with a job? Long-term prospects are not that measurable and a dangerous platitude given the stringent requirements of student loan debt (interest rate accrues in IBR for example). We are talking about risks here, and law school is a microcosm of a bigger problem as you say.

    2) This brings me to my next point. The author is sticking to a subject he knows well based on being a 2009 grad. If he presents/talks on a macro-level. NO one will listen because he has next to no credibility.

    Law School, however, is something he clearly knows a lot about. And, I would be he knows all those things about general education problems(if you read his posts.

    3) The "other side" to this argument is ridiculous and you know it. Damn, couldn't help the platitude :)

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  52. @Tyson: If education is their only obligation, why are the law schools trying to con people into enrolling on the basis of phony salary and placement stats? The fake facts and figures they present are an implicit promise that the huge financial investment will pay off. High-priced professional education is not *just* about education -- it's also about what happens subsequently. These schools have a vested interest in misrepresenting the actual situation.

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  53. @11:29am: I agree that there should be more oversight and truth in the employment figures. But really, a person would have to be an IDIOT to not have known that ALL schools (not just law schools) inflate their data. That doesn't make it right, but again, its not just a law school issue.

    Nearly every profession is having a hard time with employment now....its called a recession. We just think its a "lawyer" problem because we see everything from the world of a lawyer...and like any good lawyer would - we overanalyze and overanalyze and overanalyze.

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  54. The "recession" (somewhat of an euphemism) has merely exacerbated systemic problems in the job market. We are not going back to the white-collar employment patterns of thirty years ago.

    This is a little video made two or three years ago:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XGJq8wrw5I
    One can't laugh at it as it's too close to the truth.

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  55. Law school is a bad financial investment for all.

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1497044

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  56. http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/law_dean_says_schools_exploiting_students_who_dont_succeed/

    Look at the following statement made by New York Law School dean– and Access Group chair – Richard Matasar in January 2009:

    “We own our students' outcomes," Matasar said at the AALS program. "We took them. We took their money. We live on their money. … And if they don't have a good outcome in life, we're exploiting them. It's our responsibility to own the outcomes of our institutions. If they're not doing well ... it's gotta be fixed. Or we should shut the damn place down. And that's a moral responsibility that we bear in the academy.”

    You keep arguing that law schools exist solely to “educate” people. This is a naïve statement. [Third Tier Reality Check: Law schools exist to take their customers’ borrowed money. They DO NOT give a damn what happens to their customers, upon graduation – at which point, they become former customers who have paid in full.]

    The main point of “professional school” is to find a job in that field. Hopefully, one also gains the necessary skills required to perform that task competently. (Law schools do not do a very good job of this, by the way.) Why else do you think law schools charge $30K-$46K for a single year’s tuition?! Juxtapose the tuition charged for an undergrad degree with a JD – at the same institution. See how universities typically charge two or three times the amount for a “legal education”? It is because the law schools are cash cows – there is not much in the way of expenses, i.e. paper, rooms, printers, faxes, “professor” salary, etc. There are no expensive labs.

    Law schools produce too many law graduates; I doubt you will agree with this basic fact, Tyson. But a fact it remains. For instance, ABA-accredited law schools produced 43,588 JDs in 2008. There are nowhere near that number of available attorney positions in a good year.

    http://www.abanet.org/legaled/statistics/charts/stats%20-%207.pdf

    In the last five academic years combined, we see that ABA-accredited law schools have awarded a total of 213,685 law degrees. In the last 10 years, ABA-approved law schools pumped out a cumulative total of 406,306 JDs. Now, would it be fair to say that the law schools will pump out a similar number of JDs over the course of 2008 to 2018?

    Yet, even with too many JDs being pumped out, TTTTs put out statistics showing that they have 95% employment placement with a median starting salary of $78K. Why else would students continue to borrow $150K for a worthless product?

    Also, I have noted SEVERAL times, on this blog, that this is a problem with “higher education” in general. The focus of this blog, however, remains on law school - which makes sense seeing that I did not attend a PhD program, attain an MBA or earn an advanced degree in another worthless academic discipline. People are still deciding to pursue these endeavors out of DESPERATION.

    Lastly, quit blaming the recession. Law schools have been producing too many graduates for decades. We now have a glut of attorneys, in this country. The changing market forces, i.e. globalization/great leaps in technology, have simply compounded this problem.

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  57. I agree that there are too many graduates of law schools. But really, if there were such an oversupply, then you would not see salaries being offered like this (Btw, GS-11 is government rating considered "entry level" for an attorney):

    http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/job-J5H0C6YGYBU;_ylt=AgmurZuGC18tQIMurGUgn0z6Q6IX?source=SRP

    Ha! I spent 60 seconds running this search too! My point is that if hoards of attorneys were so desperate, then the pay would not be offered at $68,712 - $136,771. If attorneys were so plentiful and there were so many applicants for the job, then the pay would only be what a grocery store worker would make - I don't care WHO applied for it, whether you're from Harvard or Yale. (This was only a government job too).

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  58. Nando,

    I just put up a blog post that brings attention to your cause: http://balkin.blogspot.com/2010/06/wake-up-fellow-law-professors-to.html

    I can't say it will do any good, but it's a start. Most law professors I know are hard working people who want their students to succeed.

    Brian Tamanaha

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  59. tyson,

    Those federal job postings are a joke. The jobs go to: 1) people with connections (e.g. they have a friend who already works there), 2) federal employees who are transferring to another department/agency, or 3) veterans.

    I've applied for many federal attorney positions. After applying for one of seven vacancies with an obscure agency, CFTC, I decided to call to see what they'd say. My jaw dropped as they told me they'd received over 1600 applications! On another occasion, I received a rejection letter from SSA stating that they had received over 1200 applications.

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  60. Tyson actually believes the government determines pay on a market based system. That is funny.

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  61. At 6:39pm: You helped me make my point. The government pays LESS than market and still the starting salary is over $60k for this posting.

    At 6:23pm: So you failed to address my point. If they receive so many willing attorneys to work, WHY IN THE HELL would the position pay in that range at ENTRY LEVEL? Answer: They wouldn't...the pay would be less than $30-40k (like McDonald's) GUARANTEED. Do you think any agency is going to pay more than they HAVE TO? No.

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  62. Tyson needs to take some courses in logic. He thinks these positions are goign to fresh attorneys. If he were any dumber, they would need to put him near a window and water him 2x a week.

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  63. Tyson, it's 6:39 pm here REFUTING your point again because you don't seem to get it.

    How can you be so out-of-touch with reality? Do you actually think that free-market principles of supply and demand apply to the federal government? Here’s why federal jobs pay more than they need to: (1) the federal government doesn’t have to balance the budget (have you noticed the $11 trillion+ national debt?), and (2) there’s no reason to bring down the salary (even though you could) when you’re hiring your buddy. Do you know of any federal jobs that pay the prevailing wage (i.e., with no pension or health benefits)??????????

    State and local governments, on the other hand, have to balance their budgets each year. How does the salary for state and local attorney positions compare to federal? About half as much? Also, haven’t you noticed the recent trend of “hiring” volunteer attorneys? Why is the Obama Administration looking into unpaid internships for potential violations of minimum wage laws?

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  64. The 9:32 post should have said 6:23. I'm sure 6:39 would agree though.

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  65. Interesting-a great deal of speculation and BS throwing.
    Fact- Barry has one of the highest bar passage rates in the state
    Fact- the physical plant has been constantly impvoved and new building is in progress
    Fact-most grads rate the school very positively
    Fact-a lot of the so-called facts stated above are erroneous

    The truth- Barry is a new law school, and has constantly worked to improve. The faculty is very competent, and there are some high powered people teaching there. The administration is very competent, and working constantly to improve the school.
    I see some possible gutter-sniping in some of the above comments- and a lot of ignorance

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  66. Barry grad…studying for the bar…already teetering on the verge of depression…sooo, thanks for the words of encouragement. I look forward to this up-hill battle for the rest of my life.. And to the author, you might be doing some good to the few law school prospects who actually read this article (relatively speaking)..However, indirectly shitting (no-pun intended) on the grads that worked their asses off, and sacrificed so much, I believe, does more harm than good.

    And for those reading this whether you went to Barry or some other teir 3 or 4 school and then have to read assholes making you feel less about yourself, F-them, keep on keep’n on and good luck!

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  67. Nando- what do you think of Northern Illinois University (NIU)?

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  68. Guys, This blog is the truth!!!!! Back in 2004 I was working full time and took the GMAT and LSAT and decided to apply to law school (Evening Program). I got accepted into a Nova.

    The first day of orientation they sit you down and present a financial awareness seminar. BOTTOM LINE: $120,000 for total cost of attendance over three years, and upon graduation the average salary was $37,000 per year??????

    “They kept repeating live like a lawyer during law school, you will live like a law student afterwards”

    I remember speaking with several 3L’s and desperation seemed to be the common attitude. Upon graduation, one of my friends, got a job as a paralegal making $12 an hour and the other few just could not find work. My “Dream” of becoming an attorney finally hit reality.
    I was making three times that with just a bachelor’s degree. Well as luck would have it, my employer would not pay for anything above a Master’s degree so I decided to get an MBA instead.

    ****This is the lesson to Learn *******

    In life… it’s not really about how much money you make…. It’s about debt to income ratio!!!!!

    Over the years, instead of going into a massive amount of debt, I was able to save money and increase my net worth, (company paid MBA, budgeting, it all adds up)

    Go to a state Law School or don’t go at all!!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  69. Barrister Global Services Network, one of premier provider of IT solutions, printer repair , Printer Service, managed print services, Barrister Global Services. Printing services as printer repair and Managed Print Services are among the best services provided by barrister.

    ReplyDelete
  70. This is a wonderful post. The things given are unanimous and needs to be appreciated by everyone.
    --------
    johndouglas

    Law School Ranking

    ReplyDelete
  71. Barry Grad here. Unemployed after a year. Career Services is a joke. I'm pretty sure Cinnamon makes you schedule an appointment to use the fax. Seriously, look at Simplicity all the school does is take job posts from the fl bar classifieds.

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  72. Exceedingly funny- LOL

    Your childish attempts at humor are disgusting. To put it bluntly- you lie and exaggerate. If I showed an overflowing toilet at Harvard, would that make Harvard a dump?

    This is a childish rsmy

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  73. To the piece of trash who posted on 2-25-11 at 12:24 pm,

    Where is your proof, bitch? Here are some sources who find this site credible:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2

    Check out this quote, in the New York Times:

    “Avoid this overpriced sewer pit as if your life depended on it,” writes the anonymous author of the blog Third Tier Reality — a reference to the second-to-bottom tier of the U.S. News rankings — in a typically scatological review. “Unless, of course, you think that you will be better off with $110k-$190k in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt for a degree that qualifies you to wait tables at the Battery Park Bar and Lounge.”

    http://balkin.blogspot.com/2010/06/wake-up-fellow-law-professors-to.html

    “They know the score now. But they didn’t know it when they first applied to law school. They bought into the numbers provided by law schools. The mission of these sites is to educate, to warn away, the incoming crop of prospective law students—to save them from becoming victims of the law school scam.”

    http://www.elsblog.org/.a/6a00d83451b58069e2011570914111970c-pi

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1640090

    http://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/2010/07/29/best-of-the-blogs-4/

    http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0202/060_print.html

    http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/legal_profession/2009/06/the-end-of-an-era-the-bi-modal-distribution-for-the-class-of-2008.html

    http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/SSRN-id1497044.pdf

    http://www.theconglomerate.org/2009/11/incredible-shrinking-law-school.html

    On July 30, 2010 9:24 pm, Gordon Hylton wrote:

    "For a thought-provoking (and sobering) blog devoted to the realities of legal education in the 21st century, one should check out Third Tier Reality

    http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/2010/07/public-law-chool-alarie-univerity-of.html"

    How do you spell "credibility"?! Did you even bother to peruse any of those sources, mental deficient? Maybe, you can ask your day worker to read those articles to you. By the way, you are welcome for the thorough beatdown.

    ReplyDelete
  74. I'm a Barry grad and found employment in the private sector within a month of passing the bar. Barry has some great features like its Moot Court, Trial Team and the Children and Families Clinic. If you utilize the school's stronger qualities you have a decent chance of success after graduation. I'm personally very satisfied with the education I received at Barry and since I was able to maintain a decent scholarship my debt is minimal (comparatively speaking); I graduated owing approximately 60K.

    With that said, many of my classmates graduated with debt over 150K and that was when the tuition was less than 30K a year. And while most of the people I graduated with are finally working, a good amount of them opened up shop because they couldn't find jobs.

    Yes, the school is ridiculously over priced; the Administration needs improvement; Career Services is not very helpful (but they're trying); the buildings could be kept in better condition; and the school really isn't in the best area of Orlando ... but, there is still hope for Barry students who take advantage of what the school does have to offer.

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  75. I just received admission to Barry University but I still have 11 schools that I need to hear back from. They are offering a cumulative scholarship of 36k over three years with a 3.0 GPA. This is tempting since one of my semesters of classes would be about paid for. Reading review after review from sites such as this one makes me very uneasy about law school in general.

    My only real question or even reason for attending a lower ranked school would be the option of transferring to a higher ranked school. What is the general consensu on transferring to a higher ranked school from a TTTT or TTT if they are at the top of their class?

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  76. I'm encouraging my son toattend Barry am I or wrong?

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  77. I graduated from Barry in 2008, and my pay will tip the scale to 6 figures this year. (And no, that does not include cents.) Barry has some absolutely wonderful professors who for the most part graduated with their J.D.s from Harvard with real legal experience. There are also a few transplants from well-known law schools that aren't so great. I had a 75% scholarship, but I will admit that it was very difficult to maintain.

    This is how I look at it-if you go into law just to make money, you won't love it, you won't be sucessful, and you won't make a good living. But, if you really love the practice of law, then you will be very successful, and the money will follow.

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  78. @ 9:22 am,

    How do you spell "sucess"?!?!

    To wit:

    "This is how I look at it-if you go into law just to make money, you won't love it, you won't be sucessful, and you won't make a good living."

    By the way, cretin: Harvard and Yale JDs teach at many TTTs and TTTTs. Does this make Barry unique, in your eyes? Furthermore, these "professors" merely teach students "how to think like a lawyer." (Imagine if U.S. medical and dental schools taught their student "how to think" like a physician or dentist. Would you be anxious to see your doctor, if this was the case?)

    Prospective law students, I see several comments from allegedly successful lawyers on this blog. Upon further reflection, the writing "styles" are the same. In addition, I do not see any of these ass-clowns state their name, year of graduation, and the firm they are employed with.

    They would have nothing to lose by doing so. If they could provide a well-reasoned answer as to why law school is a good investment, they would likely be rewarded by their peers and the ABA for stating their case. Instead, these liars contrive a success story - apparently to induce others to enter law school. These people have NO integrity and no balls. Be leery of these pieces of trash. Make your decision, based on facts.

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  79. I graduated Barry in 2008 and I am doing very well practicing in the North East. A law degree is only as good as the person that holds it. If you’re a person capable of making money than you’ll do well if not than you wasted a lot of money. You have to know yourself and your limitations. A law degree is only a vehicle to make money. If you are a mediocre individual and couldn’t make money doing something else a law degree is not going to change that.
    Also, the blogger is right to a certain respect. Going to Barry or one of these other tier 4 schools you are not going to get looked at a Big Firm especially in New York city or North Jersey, unless you know somebody. Which is a shame because there are many capable lawyers coming out of these schools.
    Bottom line don’t waste your money unless your confident in your own abilities, because it is very tough out there, and having 75-200k in debt over your head doesn’t make it any easier.

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  80. Many points well stated nando...though just as many out of date. I do agree barry rapes you for your money, however I know more than a handful of alumni who are not only smart and widely sociable, but also more successful than I imagine 95% of people would hope to become...perhaps this includes yourself. Summing up, you had some good points, and you also seem short sighted and jaded. Best of luck, I hope your attitude doesn't put you in the same shitter you put this "actually" successful law school in to.

    JD OT UIUC grad

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  81. Running off my post directly above, I forgot to mention that you are also completely off in your statistics, quotes and figures nando. I did some research and you did in fact state correctly some of the info about barry. Sadly, you not only misquoted many aspects of that one law school, but the statements you made in the heading of this blog are, well...stupid. Given my experience, limited or not, it seems clear to me that you are not merely jaded as mentioned above, but you are also not competent enough to be an attorney to begin with. Attorneys review their facts...the several statements you make about barry law as well as law schools in general are not only misguided but clear blunders in reason and display only an elementary competence in research. I'm truly glad that you were unable to attend law school...the profession has a bad enough rap as it is, but I doubt you would graduate or pass the bar anyway. Best wishes...hope you get past your psychological barriers.

    JD OT UIUC grad

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    Replies
    1. Boy are you off. I went to Barry(unfortunately) and everything stated was true. The only beef I have with his blog is what wasn't mentioned about that shit hole of a law school.

      Delete
  82. "I'm truly glad that you were unable to attend law school...the profession has a bad enough rap as it is, but I doubt you would graduate or pass the bar anyway. Best wishes...hope you get past your psychological barriers.

    JD OT UIUC grad"

    I hope that YOU can get past your pathological dishonesty, cockroach. I graduated from Third Tier Drake, in May 2009. I also had a full tuition scholarship for three years. With that offer, I was able to limit my student debt, dumbass.

    By the way, ALL of my stats on this overflowing toilet came directly from the following sources: Barry University Sewer of Law; US "News" & World Report; the commode's wikipedia entry; Infilaw Corp.; Top Law Schools; the ABA; ABA Journal, New York Times; etc.

    I posted this entry on June 10, 2010, cretin. The school will update some of its links, in that time, moron. The fact remains that Barry Univer$iTTTTy $chool of Law is still a fourth tier dungheap, located in the incredibly oversatured Florida legal job market.

    http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings/page+6

    As you can see, the latest version of USN&WR lists your pathetic, embarrassing law school as "Rank Not Published." Robert Morse now provides this designation to those schools not ranked in the top 143 spots, i.e. the top three tiers.

    It is beyond sad that your sensibilities are offended by the FACTS, dung beetle. Learn how to follow a linear argument, and how to read basic charts, Stupid.

    Did you even bother to check out Professor Brian Tamanaha's article, with regard to the money pits known as law schools?! Of course, you didn't. YOU don't let the facts get in the way of your little, uninformed opinion, bitch.

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  83. Absolute garbage school...their class profile dropped for 2011 to a 147 LSAT bottom. Way to impress law firms with that type of student quality.

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  84. The lsat is a bunch of bullshit. Most everyone that does really good on it just took a $3,000.00 prep class. The Lsat has nothing to do with your intelligence. I'd rather go to a law school that didn't even use the lsat to me that would be the best law school. But I think that is is a requirement of accreditation. The lsat is just elitist garbage. I don't like taking tests like that so I barely reviewed a practice test.

    I don't think you should go to law school wanting to get hired at a law firm anyway. If I wanted a job doing someone else's shit work while the other guy collect most of the money I definitely wouldn't go to law school. If your making a $150k salary you can bet they are probably making over a million off of your work. So basically you are a sucker to be working there.

    If you are going to law school because you want to make a $150,000.00 salary you should get into sales because you don't need anything more than a high school degree and you can make much more money than $150k.

    Also, if you end up working for the government your student loan payments are reduced to almost nothing and after something like 10 years the balance is forgiven so even though you are not making 6 figures you will not be stuck in debt like this guy is talking about.

    Even if you are stuck in debt just stiff your creditor and realize the only thing good credit will get you is more debt. There is not much they can do to collect it. Live a simple life and realize you probably will have a place to live, a car, a tv, go to movies, and go on vacations. And the only thing that more money gets you is a slightly nicer place to live, a slightly nicer car a slightly nicer tv and slightly nicer vacations.

    Be satisfied with the fact that you have a professional degree and information that most people do not have. If you fail to monetize that information you can only blame yourself or just not care because it doesn't really matter.

    There is absolutely no information about the law that Harvard has that Barry does not have. And when you look at it like that you have to realize you are just an elitist wannabe. So, face it and get over it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sounds like someone is trying to rationalize the fact they went to a crappy law school...

      Delete
  85. Barry school of law is a scam, they use trailors as classrooms, they grade on a harsh C curve, they dismiss 30 percent of the class to make money on their victims. The grading makes no sense.Why because they are more concerned with dismissing a lot of students to make cash than to have any kind of ethics. Dont kid yourself and go here, you will be victimized by the criminals that run this school

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    Replies
    1. Where do you get your facts? Barry has a brand new multi-million dollar building with nine brand new court rooms. What trailors? There is one modular building and it is hardly used for classes.

      Maybe 5% of students are dismissed for grades. Classes are curved to a 2.5 - 2.7, which isn't much lower than most other schools.

      Barry has a top trial team, top VITA program, and has had the fourth best Bar passage rate in Florida over the past two exams. Barry beat Miami and FIU last July and UF last February in bar exam results.

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    2. Hey, are you still around? I wondered, Wikipedia has Barry listed as having a 3.75 curve, is the curve really 2.5-2.7, did you go to Barry? Or is it much harsher than what I think? Thank you

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  86. Sometimes your options to select a law school are restricted due to outside circumstances i.e. marriage, kids, logistics etc etc.

    In my opinion at the end of the day you kick ass and finish in the top five percent of your class - make sure the TTT, TTTT, TTTTTTTT pays for all your tuition costs.

    Where is the harm in graduating in the top of your TTT++ class with little to no debt and law review on your resume?

    At the end of the day if an individual seeks out to improve themselves via a degree in law who are they hurting. If they decide to attend a TTT++ school and only squeak out a 'C' average and decided to go all three years the onus is on them.
    Its always suspect when an individual slants their argument to the far left or far right. It just becomes smear campaign.

    Good for you that you have such an active blog but at the end of the day the amount of negativity poured into it without any positive balance takes away from its credibility.

    As for the career services numbers I would rather have schools provide me with the resources rather than advertise inflated and recently proven false employment and salary figures. These issues stemming from some of the Ivy League schools mind you.

    Nando why all the hate in general, not just against Barry but just in general? Did the system fail you, a close friend, family member? I would suppose you may have graduated from one of the top 8, yes? No?

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  87. To the ass-wipe who posted on March 4, 2013 at 1:44 pm,

    Learn some basic logic, bitch. Bar passage does not necessarily equate to legal employment. Furthermore, the students and taxpayers provided the funds for that new building. You understand that reality, correct?!?! The following tripe needs to be addressed:

    "Barry has a top trial team, top VITA program, and has had the fourth best Bar passage rate in Florida over the past two exams. Barry beat Miami and FIU last July and UF last February in bar exam results."

    Wow! Apparently, you get excited over your commode supposedly having the fourth best passage rate in the state. Hell, you would wet your pants, if this trash pit somehow cracked into the top three Florida law schools, in terms of bar passage.

    Lastly, no one gives a damn about your precious VITA program, douche-bag. Plenty of non-profits provide tax assistance to broke-ass clients. By the way, participating in fake court, i.e. trial teams, does not make one stand out to law firms. Those employers see you as someone who could not get hired in a real job. You are welcome for the beatdown, cretin.

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    1. Really? Beatdown? Your Drexel degree didn't work out so well? Based on the venom you spewed all over this blog, I'm not surprised. No doubt that the world needs plenty if bartenders, or, in your case, another con man / woman lined up in the unemployment line collecting nickels to pay the tab at whatever low life bar you frequent. Just because you gave up and chose to fail, don't hate. Haters gonna hate!

      Delete
  88. i reblogged this on my site today when i was lookig for some back up skewering Barry for trying to steal my $. The place is a sham and you are dead on. BTW- the new buildings were constructed with Convict Labor, so they have felons on campus! it was a wonderful experience lemme tell you... AND the toilets there ARE usually stopped up, like once a week. Thanks for getting this out there. wish i had read it before i wasted 1 semester of loan money on that scam http://wp.me/p2OJHn-eW

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    Replies
    1. Everything that happened in your original link is your fault. You just couldn't hack law school. You are the reason the school looks bad. Can't even hack one semester. What a fucking loser you are.

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  89. And a Harvard education will get you fine lawyers such as the Obamas and Eric Holder. This school may not be the "best" but coming from an old fart, it's what you put into it that will determine what you get out of it kiddies.

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    Replies
    1. You got it right old fart...

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  90. Not to be a Barry apologist (I really have no dog in this fight), but I saw that Barry was ranked 3rd in FL for passage rates on the FL bar and its graduates beat the average on the exam. Over 80% of the students from barry that took the FL bar passed. Considering it takes the lowest qualified students of any school in FL (and possibly of any school in the country), that's an impressive figure for a low 4th tier program.

    Nando is a really funny blog poster, but I wouldn't recommend taking his advice about law school (top 6 schools or guaranteed position??? Really???) Hundreds of thousands of people have gone to law schools outside the top 6 paying full ticket and done just fine in life and in their professions. There is always a risk in investing in your own education and there's no question that that risk is greater the lower ranked your school is. That doesn't make the school or the system corrupt for offering the opportunity. Also, a lot of people save up before law school or earn money while in law school to pay living expenses and don't have to incur $180K in debt to attend. This is clearly tainted view of reality.

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  91. Watch what happens to the bar passage rates of Barry students as the next few rounds take the bar. Barry dipped into the 130s just to get students and you can bet the days of the 80% pass rates are gone for good. Couple that with the departure of (she fled the insanity) their bar prep genius and Barry will be right back in the dump when it comes to bar passage.

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    Replies
    1. You hit it right on the nail. Take a look at Barry's recent bar passage rate and the professor that emailed the entire Barry community after to say that the people who didn't pass were lazy.

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    2. http://abovethelaw.com/2014/04/law-professor-sends-school-wide-email-bitching-about-grads-who-fail-the-bar-exam/

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  92. This school is such a piece of shit that picture doesn't do it justice.

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  93. 50% bar pass rate. The chickens have come home to roost.

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  94. The problem at this school is the Dean. She chases away any of the good profs that come in and most of the Sr. faculty is a joke. Barry must remove the Dean if it has any chance of moving forward.

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  95. Agree 100% with Anonymous above. Dean is the problem. Big problem. Good profs - when they actually come - don't stay because she is out of control. Barry could have been an okay school but she has turned it into a diploma mill and sees herself as the "Queen." Lucky for me I was able to transfer out after a year but I feel sorry for the people still there. That toilet pic made me LOL!

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  96. http://abovethelaw.com/2015/07/law-schools-ex-cfo-arrested-after-spending-50k-at-hooters-and-other-inappropriate-expenses/?show=comments#comments

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  97. The Rich History Of Harvard Law School One of the most prestigious law schools in the country is also among the earliest examples of programs set up specifically for teaching law

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  98. Barry Law School is a pile of dog shit. I know. I went there. Now they're accepting kids with 141 LSATs. Yeah, real selective there.

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  99. This bashing of Barry Law school is ridiculous! I worked hard, attended nights, graduated and passed the bar. And I did very well as a ASA and now in private practice. I graduated in 2002 and myself and 12 other students worked had to get this school accredited by ABA first provisional later full. The time wasted bashing this school would be better spent working.

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  100. Bashing the school is ridiculous. Put that effort into meaningful work or volunteer in your community to make your community better. I went to Barry yes, 02 graduate, passed bar very successful career in government and now real estate. This school had an excellent night program that allowed me to keep my day career.

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  101. I graduated from Barry in May, 2016, passed the bar with scores of 175 on the MBE and 154 on the Florida, had a job before my bar results came out. I had superb professors at Barry. My Evidence professor graduated from Yale and taught at Harvard before teaching at Barry, for example. So the education is there. However, when they admit people who got LSAT scores of 142, those people have little chance of passing the bar. You need to know yourself - nobody else can decide if you can succeed in law. The school is not the determining factor.

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