Monday, June 7, 2010

Stifling, Sweltering Commode: Michigan State University College of Law

Tuition: For the 2009-2010 academic year, tuition for a full-time student at this commode of law amounted to $32,828.

Total Cost of Attendance: The school estimates that fees, books, room and board, transportation, insurance, and personal expenses will add another $16,698 to the tab. This would bring us to a grand total of $49,526 – for one year’s cumulative COA at this magnanimous institution of higher learning. Hell, this amount alone is more than most of the JDs from this school can look forward to earning, upon graduation.

In case anyone is wondering why in-state tuition is not listed, the commode of law is a PRIVATE SCHOOL that is affiliated with a public university. What an arrangement!

Ranking: Ooh! Michigan $TTTaTTTe UNiver$iTTTy College of Law is ranked in the illustrious, grandiose third tier of American law schools – by U.S. News & World Report. Yes, I am sure these students will become titans of the legal industry.

Employment and Starting Salary Info: Look carefully at the verbiage listed under the link for the Graduate Employment Survey:

“Please report any job, whether legal or non-legal, whether full-time or part-time. Please be assured that any information you provide us will be used in the aggregatet [sic]. No one will be able to determine either your job status or salary level. Your individual response is kept confidential by Career Services and is not shared with any other person or department.” [Emphasis mine]

The commode of law DOES NOT PROVIDE hard numbers on job placement or starting salary, under its “Reporting & Placement Data” page. But, it does EXPLICITLY tell recent graduates to report ANY job – whether legal or non law-related, whether full-time or part-time. How is that for transparency?!

As reported by the lovely JJD, back on May 10, 2010, MSU pays its students to post positive comments about the law school.

“About nine of the 18 law students who applied were accepted as bloggers and are now paid $250 to write at least two posts monthly, reports the Associated Press in an article reprinted in New York Lawyer. [Emphasis mine]

Although posts are initially unedited before they go up, they may subsequently be revised. One blogger, 22-year-old Brett Manchel, was asked to edit a post that criticized East Lansing, compared to Ann Arbor.”

Of course, this idea was the “brainchild” of someone in the law school’s marketing and communications department. Remember, they want to attract more paying customers.

Here is a closer look at SpartanBlawg:

See where the school has closed off comments on posts? Perhaps the school is concerned that too many former law students will post over-the-top, glowing comments about this pre$TTTigiou$ toilet. If you feel like wasting time and seeing your IQ drop – at the same time – go ahead and read these blog entries. Watch out! One of these students may end up winning a Pulitzer or a Nobel Prize in Literature. (Yeah, right about the same time Jessica Alba climbs on top of me in a crowded restaurant.)

Conclusion: In the final analysis, this middling, trifling “independent” law school WILL NOT provide the bulk of its students with a realistic chance to repay their student loans and make a positive return on investment. A student attending this festering piece of fecal matter could walk away from law school with an additional $150K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt.

Yeah, that is a great recipe for personal and financial success!!

And will the industry apologist cockroaches stop pointing out that “Because some, i.e. few, students will do well for themselves, that means this school is serving the interests of its students”? Going with this logic, does this mean that because a few people actually win jackpots or beat the dealer at blackjack, that gambling in Las Vegas is a good investment?

Hell, the school pays its current law students to blog and post positive things about the institution!! The school is ranked as a third tier commode. The VAST majority of its graduates will not earn Biglaw salaries. Do these things give you the impression that this is a top-notch law school? Do yourself a favor and avoid this dump. Save yourself a lifetime of low wages, mountains of debt, disillusionment, and angst. If your family or friends insist on you attending law school, tell them to pay for it! Remember, these people will not be the ones stuck with large monthly, student loan payments for the next 25-30 years.


  1. OK, what is floating int that toilet? Oh, its the Michigan State law school class of 2010. The school is shit. Call Roto Rooter in Lansing and have them fix this shit. thx.

  2. This is how I like to quit all of my temp jobs. You can do anything with a law degree.


    The writing and analysis would be great - if it had been written by a middle school kid. To wit:

    “It’s not like I’m working at Guantanamo – I know. But when you have people’s lives literally at the tip of your tongue- because what you say can save their life, or not–it is pretty intense.”

    What?! Aren't you working the misdemeanor docket, for clinic? I fail to see how a DUI-2d case where the defendant/client gets 10 days in jail, instead of 7 constitutes having someone’s life “at the tip of your tongue.” After all, if the defendant has a job and is not convicted of a serious crime, many courts will allow him to serve his sentence on weekends.

    “Call me weak, faint of heart, or other things that would be inappropriate to write here. I’m not those things, but I am definitely more aware. More aware of what it means to be a citizen, what the purpose of the law is, what it means to be free in a nation of man-made laws.”

    I wouldn’t say you are a weakling, for showing some humanity and reflection. However, your analysis is anemic, for the following reasons: First, there is more to the world, and to law, than what you read in dry-ass casebooks. After spending lots of money and class-time on a “legal education”, one would think that you would be THRILLED to take part in actual criminal cases.

    Second, citizens are mere pawns. Got that? Occasionally, you see politicians make a big deal about legislation that is designed to help the average worker or moderate-income family. You may even see some children and blue-collar workers at the signing ceremony. Don’t buy into the hype. This is just more smoke-and-mirrors, i.e. these are performances for public consumption. The legislators receive favorable press and some nice photo ops with average people. Do you understand that? I am telling you, clear as crystal, that these “citizens” are mere props for the cameras. Afterward, things will return to their general state of disarray, misery, and inequity. Welcome to reality.

    Third, the purpose of “the law” is to keep the average man, woman and child in their place. The law was designed by wealthy people and corporations to protect their interests/ investments/property. (You even note that we live in a nation of man-made laws.) These rules were developed as a way to legitimize the plundering at the hands of the rich – under the premise that “all are equal before the law” and that no one is above the law. Yeah, and I write this, Salma Hayek’s ankles are resting on my shoulders.

    You make some good points, such as the fact that judges DO NOT GIVE A DAMN what happens to these defendants. They have heard it all before, and are often not interested in the facts. The same goes for defense lawyers, prosecutors and defendants – they want to win, regardless of what really happened. The “rule of law” is even more insidious because the average person believes –or is indoctrinated to believe – that we, in the United States, live under a fair and just legal system. At lease people in other nations REALIZE that they live under a corrupt system.

  4. So what do you propose to do about it, rather than just crying the blues on your blahg?

    We get it...almost all law schools are festering toilets. It's all $150k and lucky if you get "shit law."

    Yet people will keep ponying up the cash to go, and even if they go free, they are "wasting 3 years" and giving up those grand opportunity costs where they could be enjoying themselves flipping burgers.

    Why don't you go speak out at your law school and talk to the students at open houses or something...?

    Everyone knows that law school is expensive, but almost nobody is going to take your word for it that they're not going to get a job afterwards, even though they very well may not.


  5. Seton Hall Law voted America's most ROTTEN Toilet!

  6. Thad said:
    Why don't you go speak out at your law school and talk to the students at open houses or something...?

    Do you really think the law schools would let someone who is against law school talk to the students about dropping out or not going??? On what planet?

  7. I recently posted an opinion on the top law schools website urging students to re-consider their decision to attend law school, especially if they were financing such an endeavor at an expensive TTT. These kids attacked me like a rabid pack of wolves. These kids are lost and their deluded thoughts and naivete is astounding. While these law school scamblog websites may save a few people from going to law school, many more will gladly take their spot. I think this problem (existence of TTTs and their exploitation of the student loan system) will not come to a halt unless the government stops guaranteeing the loans or when the default rate reaches double digits. With forebearances, deferments and 30-year loan repayment schedules, the default rate will not reach double digits any time soon. In the meantime, TTTs will continue ride the student loan gravy train until the law school/college educational system bubble bursts. That day will happen. I predict within the next 5 years that gravy train will come to a grinding stop.

  8. Just by talking about it, Nando is doing something about it. If even a handful of prospective law students have second thoughts about the whole idea, then mission accomplished.

  9. I agree with aa and jjd...what are we supposed to do but blog about this?

    I actually sell bar review for a living, and when I see kids on tours, especially ones who bring their parents with them, I always try to give them a warning...but they always roll their eyes and look at me like I'm crazy.

    For example, I am running a bar review class right now in the same place that a bunch of 0L lemmings are taking the LSAT. When they would come up to the table to ask where their room was (mistaking me for a proctor), I was very blunt..."Don't go to law school" I told them.

    My colleagues chided me for being so frank, because they know that without these lemmings our business will dry up and we'll be out of work too. It's a vicious cycle.

    Am I a hypocrite for feeding the industry I purport to criticize...hell to the yes! But I have loans and I have bills and I enjoy regular I will whore it up as long as necessary.

    But as long as all the scam bloggers are out there, at least these lemmings can get the other side of the story than what the law school industrial complex puts out.

  10. Midlaw partner here to say that is the most disgusting putrid toilet I have ever seen in my life. It looks like the animal that took that dump didn't make it in time to drop his first load from the looks of that floor. Back on topic, I think this school has pulled off a great feat in affiliating itself with a public institution while charging private tuition rates. How difficult is it to achieve this? About as difficult as it would be to register a for profit firm as a 503(c) entity.

  11. All the World's a TTTJune 7, 2010 at 4:48 PM

    Re: Locke

    Yeah, the crazy train never stops for the delusional prospective law student. A friend of mine spent the past week telling me how revved up he was for that weekend's LSAT. One of the lucky few of my H.S. buddies to land a decent job after college, as a federal employee he could conceivably ride that 9-5 General Schedule train into a comfortable living and a nice retirement. Instead, he remains convinced that the doors of biglaw are wide open to him, as long as he can "get into UVA or somewhere."

    I wish the guy the best. Maybe his current employer will remember him in three years and give him a job? Not exactly a gamble I would take at the cost of 50k a year. As this recession has made painfully clear, T-14 will not save you and the legal jobs are not coming back. The remnants of the thin veneer of prestige that once coated that legal profession have been washed away, and it is now clear to see that, yes, nearly every law school and certainly many in the "T-14" qualify as TTTs.

  12. People who diss Nando can kiss my hairy ass. I was laid off a year ago, got desperate, and was planning to enroll in a TTT in Fall '10. Had I not found this site and others, I would have gone into debt to the tune of $150K for shit job prospects. I finally got a job offer at near my old salary and told the TTTs to fuck off. And I owe it to Nando, BIDER, JJD, etc.

  13. So glad I quite law school after a semester of hell having learned that my friends' who'd just finished weren't finding work and the only jobs on offer paid $40K a year, didn't come with insurance and expected you to work on Saturdays.

    I've never regretted my decision.

  14. Nando, what do you think of other graduate school programs? I bet many MBA grads are regretting going to business school too.

    I'm unemployed and was thinking of enrolling in a Master's in Accounting program. Is accounting still relatively "recession-proof"?

  15. Depends on which university you get your MBA from -- like law. If your MBA is from Harvard, Stanford or Northwestern, you have a chance. If it's from Swampwater University, forget it. We live in a predatory winner-take-all society with a few winners and many losers.

    The problem with the United States is that every job that can be shipped abroad has already gone or is in the process of going. Scientists and engineers -- who arguably perform a more positive function than lawyers -- are jobless. Computer programmers have lost their jobs either to H1Bs or offshoring. The USA has morphed into a low-wage service-sector economy that is living way beyond its means. This low-wage dead-end economy explains why so many desperate youngsters clutch at straws by going for graduate programs in law and management. If the country is producing 45,000 lawyers every year, it's also producing around 100,000 MBAs every year.

    I remember a PBS documentary in 1996 -- a golden era compared to today -- when they were showing an MBA graduate who was working at a greengrocers at $10 an hour lifting crates and packing produce.

  16. Only a self-loathing person who has an enormous amount of time on their hands would post something so ridiculous. You obviously didn't get a legal job and instead of blaming yourself you are blaming MSU? Ridiculous....I am a recent law grad from MSU and thought it was great. I'm employed and so is everyone I know. So much for your resources.

  17. for the person above who asked about going to business school or whatever instead of law--dont do it unless you get into an elite school. Go elite or dont go at all. Instead learn a trade, save your money and get out of rat race early. With subsidized healthcare as it is going to be implemented, you basically get free healthcare if you are low income.

    Go buy a cheap old house with a couple of acres and an old truck after you have worked 10 years at HVAC or whatever....

  18. Yes, Michigan State’s commode of law is so fantastic, amazing and wonderful, that the school MUST pay its law students to post positive blog entries about the school!! Is this a faculty member? If so, how does the public university justify providing a private legal education to students of modest means? I have been to Michigan, and much of that state has been economically decimated. So again, I ask you: how the hell does MSU morally justify charging its students THIRTY TWO THOUSAND, EIGHT HUNDRED AND TWENTY-EIGHT DOLLARS for one year of “legal education”?

    Also, a little publication called US News & World Report lists Michigan $TTTaTTTe as a third tier toilet, in its yearly law school rankings. Maybe you have heard of this rankings scheme? You are, or should be, aware that legal employers care very much about the caliber of the law school one attends. How much are your classmates earning? How much do they owe in student loans? Those are the important questions to ask.

    Also, the guy down the street who paints houses has a job, and at least he is not drowning in student debt. Furthermore, what does “having a job” prove? Remember, MSU Commode of Law DOES NOT CARE what type of employment its graduates have secured. They want grads to report part-time and full-time jobs, as well as legal and non-law positions. [News flash for 10:45: YOU DO NOT NEED A DAMN LAW DEGREE TO SELL INSURANCE POLICIES OR TO SERVE ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES!]

    For instance, someone making $40K but with $156K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE student loan debt is NOT in a stable financial situation. Unless, of course, you consider making a monthly $1,017 payment to Sallie Mae for the next 30 years – at a VERY generous 6.8% interest rate – to be financially stable. A person in this scenario would be paying a little over one-third of his PRE-TAX income to his student lenders. (Think about your MSU classmates who took out private loans, when you have a moment to reflect on the repercussions of staggering student debt.)

    Simply put, Michigan State University (private) College of Law charges too much money for what it provides to its graduates, i.e. anemic job prospects, in terms of both job offers and compensation.

  19. Would going for a Master's of Accounting be a decent choice for the unemployed? It's not exactly cheap, but the entire program is only a year long. Is accounting still recession-proof or have too many people flocked to that too?

  20. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  21. The only personal attacks this blog author makes are at people making money off of unthinking applicants (very similar to predatory lending in sub-prime-only worse)

    To attack him like this doesnt seem to make any logical sense whatsoever. Even if he is being "unfair" to schools, it makes people question things more which is never a bad thing.

    So Anon 1:47, what was your motivation in insulting him? I'm just curious as to what personally went through your mind as your fingers hit the keys? Thanks!

  22. I doubt it's anything personal with Anon 1:47: he's probably just doing his job as an industry shill, maybe an MSU shill -- *shrug* -- who knows? And since the only ammo he has is personal attacks, that's what he's using.

    If people want to go to these shitty schools, that's their prerogative -- that's what consumer choice is all about: the freedom to get conned, to be taken for a ride. But at least the other side of the story should be heard.

  23. Let's say someone went to Drake (Nando's alma mater) and got a high-paying job. Would that person spend every waking hour on this site defending his school? Unlikely. Most likely, that individual would be working his ass off.

    Personally, if somebody started a blog bashing my TTT, I wouldn't give a shit no matter how well I was doing. Hell, I'd probably ask to guest-blog.

    Which leads me to my point: The only people repeatedly attacking Nando are those who have a financial stake in this blog--namely, those that work for Drake. They repeatedly attack Nando personally rather than address his substantive claims. It doesn't matter if he finished first or last in his class. Hell, it doesn't matter if he dropped out after one day.

    This blog is NOT about him. It's about law schools all across the county deliberating publishing false employment stats to lure more kids to enroll. These schools know full well that a large percentage of their grads struggle to get a legal job (or even a non-legal job) and yet they do all they can to sweep the truth under the rug.

    Sorry, folks. The jig is up.

  24. About me (1:47 June 8):

    I live in my parent's garage. My mother fixes my lunch for me and picks out my clothes. (She also washes my underwear and cuts my hair). I also haven't been laid since October 2003. But that's not why I'm mad. I'm upset b/c I graduated in the top 20 percent of my class at a third tier piece of shit located in the balmy midwest, and the only job I could land was as a Walmart sales associate. (Well, I also wiped senior citizen's asses after law school, but was let go after 10 days.) Nando graduated last in his class and he got a non-law job within 2-3 mos. of graduating from TTT.

    In the alternative -

    I am a third tier law professor at a third tier shithole in a non-descript midwestern city. I am upset becase this author is trying to hurt my meal ticket. I practiced law (for a year) and I do not want to go back to the practice of law. I prefer to teach legal doctrine and theory for a very handsome living. Don't believe him or the scam blog community. One can do anything with a law degree. Law degrees are very versatile and in high demand.

  25. why is someone who gives a negative review of the blog and its thesis considered an industry shill or paid to post by the law school?

    Just curious why you think that?

  26. Others have pointed out that nando relentlessly attacks the law schools with facts, industry figures and statments, common sense, and clarity, while the goons at Drake Law School continue to attack him personally. These children have not yet adressed the meat and potatoes of the issues he brings up. They also have not had the nuggets to identify themselves on this forum. if this is any indication of the type of legal education one receives at Drake, run for the hills if you get accepted to this dump. Do you want to be taught by such people? This is very telling.

  27. Hey, it looks like your piece of garbage law school also pays its students to blog for it:

    The bottom reads:
    "All Drake bloggers are compensated for their time. All blogs are uncensored and the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of Drake University."

    I wonder how many other TTToilets pay law students to post positive comments about their school.

  28. 6:31: I've yet to see a substantive attack on the blog. Mostly they're frivolous ad hominems. Fight on the same battlefield as Nando: counter with facts and figures about placement rates and starting salaries if you have a real counter-argument. Since the attackers don't, they just attack Nando personally. And since in the US of A, most Americans -- even college graduates -- can't distinguish between a sound counter-argument and a worthless ad hominem, I suppose these attacks have some traction. The raison d'etre is probably that the writers have a vested interest in a status quo where new generations of lemmings go through the law school process.

  29. Nando, a little OT, I know you profiled that crapper school known as The John Marshall Law School Chicago a while back but I wanted to alert you to their newest educational scam job that every one of their alums (including me) should be ashamed of. The school has teamed up with Lewis University, a local Chicago area college to allow Lewis students to enroll at JMLS after only their third year of undergraduate study (instead of 4th year) so that Lewis students who want to be lawyers only have to be in school a total of 6 years and not 7. Please expose this crap excuse that the schools are being innovative by trying to knock off one year of study so that student's financial burdens are marginally less. The link to Lewis University's announcement about the deal is below. My guess is that students from Lewis will still have to shell out about $1300 per credit hour at JMLS and that the Illinois lawyer market will swell closer and closer to the 100,000 mark.

  30. "Depends on which university you get your MBA from -- like law. If your MBA is from Harvard, Stanford or Northwestern, you have a chance."

    If you're going to B-school to learn something, don't bother - buy a few books instead. If your employer will pay, and you can get in somewhere decent, it's an ok way to make contacts.

  31. Nando thinks his law school (Drake) ripped him off. All he can do is complain about it on his blog. He doesn't have a cause of action? Listen here dummy; litigate, run for office, or go home and shut your fat mouth. After all, you have a license don't you.

    You paid Drake and got your license, but you don’t practice law? That’s the waste. Drake helped you get a license and you wasted it. Did you fail the bar or something? Is it that you feel as though you didn't get a quality education and now you are incapable of practicing law? Are you angry that nobody handed you a job? Do you deserve better?

    Answer the questions. Consider it a deposition. I guarantee that you are a fat, nerdy, wannabe Ivy, white bread, virgin.

  32. ^this is the type of shit that gets into law school, people. but it's still an honorable profession, eh?

  33. Why even get a bachelors degree? What a waste. I got a BA and nobody offered me a job. You see, I expected life to be handed to me on a silver plate. Why don't we just give up? You know, let the ivy rich people run the world. Fuck you Nando!

  34. @ 6:16,

    You are the typical internet badass, aren’t you? You have probably never been in an actual fight; you more than likely still live with your parents; and you are married to the idea of going to law school. So, unless you are some amazing, talented, beautiful young woman, I am not at all interested in your little proposition.

    To address your main points - First, NONE of the scam-bloggers expected anything to be handed to them, idiot. We expected to work hard for everything we have. We did not expect that earning a law degree, forgoing three years of income, and taking on tons of non-dischargeable debt would become a hindrance to finding gainful employment. Who the hell do you think you are talking to, shill? Some trust fund kids, who can actually count on daddy paying for their education and then waltzing into a nice, high-paying job upon graduation? One of the main reasons I attack this pathetic industry is because it gives the average person of modest means the idea that attending law school will improve his station in life, i.e. “A law degree is highly versatile” and “One can do anything with a law degree.” Instead, law school causes many of these people to become debt slaves for the rest of their lives – and most have one hell of a time finding non-legal employment.

    Second, “ivy rich people” pretty much do run the world. By the way, you functional illiterate, you did mean to say “Ivy League-educated, rich people”, correct? See how many of the Supremes graduated from non-elite law schools. Actually, I will save you the trouble of researching this for yourself, and tell you: NOT ONE of them went to a non-elite school for their legal education. With the exception of the outgoing Stevens – a Northwestern grad – everyone else in this club graduated from Columbia, Yale, or Harvard. These people will continue to side with the wealthy, the privileged, the ruling class, and Corporate America. Look at the people in the top federal administrative posts. Look at where they went to school. Are you seriously this naïve? Do I need to break things down further for you, so that it penetrates your gray matter?

    Next time come with some hard facts – unless, of course, you like having your ass handed to you in a paper sack.

  35. HA! Internet Badass! Have I ever been in an actual fight? Nando, are you going to beat me up? I should warn you that I am wearing leather gloves with holes in the knuckles and drinking Jolt Cola under a black light while I type this. You see, I am an Internet bad ass.

    I can tell that I have made a nerd angry. Words like “idiot” at the end of your sentence bring Napoleon Dynamite to mind. I can practically see your face turning red.

    Pointing out undisputed arbitrary “fact” is not argument. Ivy grads do run the world. You and I agree about that. The difference between us is how we deal with it. For example, the job market is bad, especially for recent graduates like myself. However, I keep trying. I take responsibility for finding a job. I am don’t blame my college. I did not expect the career department to find a job for me. I do not feel ripped off and I am not going to give up or roll over for some rich ivy grad.

    I do live with my parents. That is where most unemployed recent college grads live. I borrowed non-dischargeable student loans to pay for college and now I don’t have a job. Does that mean I shouldn’t have gone to college at all? Should anybody go to college if they don’t get into an Ivy League school? At least you got a license to practice law in exchange for your debt, didn’t you? I didn’t get that opportunity. I could put together an argument that I am the one who was ripped off, not you. However, the truth is that neither of us was ripped off.

    It sounds like you had unrealistic expectations; but you got exactly what you paid for. Everybody who wants to practice law needs to go to law school in order to apply for a license. A reasonable person would expect to have the opportunity to become a licensed lawyer in exchange for their money. This is exactly what you got. Apparently you though you would get something more. What more do you think you deserve?

    You are lucky enough to have the opportunity to take the bar exam and practice law . . . but for some reason you don’t. Maybe law school just wasn’t for you. However, some lawyers would rather work for non-profit organizations, advertise, or work pro bono than leave the profession. Your license is an invaluable tool. You have the ability to affect the law and make the world a better place, but instead you bitch and moan about how you were ripped off.

    Apart from a license, the only other thing you need is a client worth representing. If you are dissatisfied that your law school didn’t provide you with clients, then you are just an idiot. You need to build your business. There are plenty of people out there who NEED lawyers and can’t afford them. Since you are apparently unwilling to hunt for paying clients, I suggest that you help somebody who can’t afford a lawyer.

    Nobody is going to just give you work; but then again, you deserve better, don’t you, narcissist. What exactly did you expect when you got your license, someone to pat you on the head and give you a 150,000 per year job and a new suit? Here are some questions that should help give me an idea of your actual argument; i.e. not fractured rantings about how you are a “scam-buster.” First, what did you expect to get out of law school? Second, what did you actually get?

    Also, you will have to forgive me if my response contains minor errors or casual language. I have not had the opportunity to attend law school like you have. Apparently you take pride in your TTT education after all.

    Now if you will excuse me I have to get back to playing World of Warcraft and then hunt for a job. Fuck you Nando. You are a disgusting person.

  36. well, at least he is not playing World of Warcraft in his mother's basement. did mum forget to pour you a bowl of sugary Choco-bites breakfast cereal this morning? Is that why you're so full of hate. And maybe, you should look for a job first, and then play video games, loser.

  37. I go to MSU College of Law. Let's get our facts straight about why it is still a private school:

    The reason it is a private school is because when Detroit College of Law partnered up with MSU, they asked the Michigan Legislature to help subsidize tuition (such as they do for Michigan and Wayne State). The Legislature decided that Wayne State and Michigan were enough public law schools in the state, and felt they didn't need to help fund another law school. As a result, MSU had no choice but to remain a private school.

    The bloggers for the BLAWG on the website there get paid...250 dollars a semester. Talk about incentive to glamorize and embellish. That 250 goes a long way, trust me. You can pay off two weeks of rent with that, and have some spare change left over for a gumball.

    MSU College of Law is highly regarded in Michigan as being on par with that of Wayne State. I am writing this from my desk at a mid-size law firm in the mid-Michigan area, where I was fortunate enough to get a paid summer clerk position. I also had three call-back interviews during OCI at large Detroit firms. And if you look at the admissions standards for MSU College of Law (155 LSAT, 3.36 GPA), the law school is well above most, if not all, TTT. The reason? MSU College of Law just dropped the Detroit name 6 years ago. Since then, it has significantly raised its GPA and LSAT requirements. In another few years, it will jump up in the rankings. How do I know this? By looking at Penn State's law school, and by using simple logic. But be patient, man. And do some research before spouting off about something. From what I read about your blog post, you didn't even take time to Google facts about MSU College of Law. You looked at the tuition rate, saw they had a blog, and had an orgasm writing about it all. MSU College of Law gives out plenty of scholarship money, so tuition is affordable. And if I start off making 75K/year and live in Michigan, that is as good as making 120K/year and living in NYC. The cost of living here is dirt cheap, and for people like me who have grown up in Michigan and enjoy the beaches in the summer and the snowboarding in the winter, I will take my 75K/year, live in the Detroit area (huge Wings and Tigers fan here, and there are some nicer areas downtown if you know where to look), and live very comfortably.

    I am sorry you had a bad experience at a TTT, but if you want to improve your credibility, do some research next time. And move out of your mom's basement. She doesn't love you.

  38. 9:03, you clearly have a personal stake in puffing up this insTTTiTTTuTTTion. I can see that you are commenting from Lansing. Are you an administrator at this toilet? If so, feel free to contact me and we can debate the state of the legal job market in a public forum. Surely, you would be happy to set me straight, would you not?

    Also, I already knew why the law school is private. The Michigan Legislature CORRECTLY decided that there were enough public law schools in the state, i.e. there were already enough state tax dollars subsidizing students’ legal educations. The fact remains that it is an expensive, private law school attached to a public research university. You can spin it ANY way you, but the school chooses to charge its students $32,828 in tuition and fees for a SINGLE YEAR.

    That’s right – THIRTY TWO THOUSAND, EIGHT HUNDRED AND TWENTY EIGHT DOLLARS for the 2009-2010 school year. Let me guess what you will say to this: “The school has NO CHOICE but to charge this amount.”

    Hell, the real law school in the State of Michigan, i.e. the ninth-ranked University of Michigan Law School, has now resorted to posting job opportunities from India!!

    You are the one who needs to get his facts straight, kid. I have NEVER lived in my mother’s basement. I lived with my sister-in-law for about 5 months after graduating from a third tier piece of trash – just like the third tier piece of filth you attend/work at, i.e. Michigan $TTTaTTTe Univer$iTTTy Commode of Law.

    This blog - as well as the others exposing the law school industry – has credibility, as even the industry agrees with the basic premises of these blogs, i.e. that the lawyer market is GROSSLY oversaturated; that the job market is anemic; and that this is not due to the current recession.

    In contrast, the school’s law bloggers –or, more likely, the law school – have closed off comments on posts. Also, as noted in the ABA Journal article, the posts MAY SUBSEQUENTLY BE REVISED. After all, the main purpose of SpartanBlawg is to persuade applicants to attend law school at this dump.

    Lastly, you state that MSU Commode of Law is on par with Wayne State. Well, as we can see from the URL above, Wayne State is firmly in the third tier of U.S. law schools. So, yes Michigan $TTTaTTTe is on par with Wayne $TTTaTTTe. What is the big deal? Moist buffalo turds are on par with moist grizzly turds, as well. Should we consider this a great revelation?!

    Next time you decide to post on this blog, make sure YOU get your facts straight - unless, of course, you like having your ass handed to you in a plastic bag. And good luck making $75K a year in the dismal Michigan economy, after graduating from this toilet.

  39. Wayne is way cheaper than MSU. I also am under the impression that most incoming 1L's know about the perspective job market. Yes, the market for attorneys is oversaturated!.. So is the market for most other jobs. Look at teaching, nursing, GBA, Finance, etc. I have friends who are currently graduated and looking for jobs in nursing, teaching, and finance. My friend who graduated with a finance degree has a sales position at an insurance agency making dog shit. My friend in teaching cant even get an interview out of the state of michigan. The truth is that a BA, BS, etc is now the high school diploma. No degree is a job offer. You need to put in the time and effort to find a job. Practice interviewing. NETWORK! Most of the people who have a J.D. don't practice law. It gives you a mind set to be succesful in business and sales. Law School will teach you to think differently than most people. I am not advocating puting yourself through hell to get a third tier law degree. I am just saying that most people who recently graduated college dont have jobs right now. Everything is being outsourced and offshored(this is true).. That is not to say that new ideas and businesses start every single day. I would suggest to anyone planning on attending law school to have a backup plan. Make your undergrad degree worthwhile. I got my BA in supply chain managment from MSU. It is a great degree with great employment prospectives (by prospectives i meen that everybody i know who has this degree is making between 38k and 70k a year with benefits. The oldest grad I know is making the most and he graduated in 2008) I am not going to bash anybody who is bitter because that is your right. I have two uncles in their 40's who just lost their jobs. One is losing his house and just filed for bankruptcy. He was making at least $200,000 grand a year. Im sure he is more bitter than the recently graduated law student who cant find a job.

  40. Yes, I am posting in Lansing. Good job sleuth. That's probably because I live in Lansing and go to school at MSU College of Law. And by reading your reply - and noting your fetish with fecal matter - you seem to think that throwing out phrases like "moist buffalo turds" and "having your ass handed to you in a plastic bag" make for compelling arguments. It truly is a mystery as to why you aren't litigating for Big Law.

    Thanks for giving me a link to an article about Umich posting jobs in India. That so makes your argument that MSU College of Law is a crappy school. I have a link for you: It has nothing to do with this reply, but it shows hamsters dancing (or used to when I last visited, about 10 years ago).

    You mention that I attend a piece of filth school. Your choice of words are now starting to get repetitive. But, I'll bite at this one, too. Our bar passage rate is pretty high. Last time I checked, they were higher than University of Michigan's (for the state of Michigan). This isn't a pissing contest, but if I plan on staying in Michigan and practicing law in Michigan, I will have to pass the bar in Michigan. So, logic (and stats) tell me that MSU will give me the tools to do this.

    You said good luck making 75K a year in Michigan's dismal economy. Man, have you ever visited the Great Lakes State? Clearly, you have not. Outside of southeast Michigan, things are a lot better (such as in Grand Rapids). Yes, overall the economy here is absolutely horrible (yet isn't that the case for the entire nation?) But that doesn't mean that starting at 75K with a J.D. is by no means unachievable. Look at NALP and see what the big firms here start their associates out at: in Detroit, most start at 105K a year (check it out, seriously. This can all be found on NALP's website). Now, being a realist, I acknowledge that I probably will not make that much money, but 75K is definitely possible. And given the low cost of living here, 75K is definitely a fine starting salary.

    Lastly, you mention that our "commode" (again with the fecal fetish?) of a school is on par with Wayne State, which is firmly in third tier status. I am not sure how you figure out how a school is "firmly" third tier, since they aren't ranked. I mean, there was that one year that US News and World Report did 'accidentally' rank 3rd and 4th tier schools (MSU was at 108 in that article), but they acknowledged that was a glitch in their computers and did not reflect actual rankings. Furthermore, Wayne State was recently tier two (up until a couple of years ago). So, I am unsure how Wayne State is "firmly" a third tier if it just entered it a couple years ago. But I am not here to defend Wayne State, I am defending MSU.

    And buddy, we are all law students. We can do our research and see that the market is over saturated. It's not a surprise to anyone with an internet connection and access to Google. Everyone knows that universities inflate statistics and facts. That's like believing in campaign promises, and then when they don't come true, getting upset over them. After all, everything is a business these days. I am sorry if you failed to research this yourself.

  41. Darin in Plymouth
    I am 2L at Wayne, yes we all know it's saturated, but come on its not like it was that hard to get into law school, just cost a butt load. I got a decent scholarship here though as compared to MSU, on top of being a public university. I have a business*(accouunting) so if I can't get legal job at least I can fall back on it, for the time being. But if I went to MSU that's a lot of dough and debt to break-even, if being realistic with 40-60K job for a five years ( if can get a job). Those $105 jobs are few and far between here and can go also to tier 1 and 2 grads or someones relative, etc. I know some people always thought ex-mayor crook Kwame went to Wayne , but it was actually Detroit College of Law, now the affiliated private MSU. I'm not knocking msu , its just let's face it,like WSU, if we are not a tier 1 or noted tier 2 school, we have our work cut out for us. Like someone else said, other grads are struggling also, but disagree with nursing, my sister and my ex-girlfriend, each had a few offers as nurses, they both are BSN/RN's making about 45 & 52K (sister-2years exp.) last year . Not much but at least have job and not a big student debt to pay off. My ex said its a tighter market these days, the demands there but hospitals are operating purposely short handed due to economy/budget but she said most all she graduated last year with, got jobs or went for MSN, just not the hospitals and floors/specialties they wanted. I know several WSU law grads , still not employed, the rest making dink, a few knew directly through family partners getting decent $60-80K gigs.

  42. 9:09: What the bleep is so hard for you law school apologists/shills/enthusiasts to understand about scambloggers like Nando and others, many others?????

    It is also interesting to note that, apparently, you have no conceptual problem with the law schools' bogus and fraudulent salary and placement statistics as publicized, used as predatory lures for the unwary liberal arts grad looking for an occupational escape route, nor with the fact these "schools" plunder taxpayer funds in the form of student loan dollars in exchange for the production of an essentially worthless degree.

    The basic premise is that law school, for MOST people, is a crappy investment, that's all. It is. The numbers show it. See Herwig Schlunk's anti-law school analysis at Vanderbilt, from the unique perspective of a Vandy law prof.

    Analogous is the case of jumping from atop a five-storey building: you might survive it, but is it a good idea for most people to give it a try? Probably not. The odds are against one.

  43. MSU-DCL is PRIVATE MONEY MAKING VENTURE. MSU-DCL is not at all concerned about its graduates finding employment and they are simply in the business of extorting naive middle class students who view legal profession as a big wage earner. I attended MSU college of law. I completed all the coursework and passed all the exams and received stellar grades. However, I have been unable to find any employment for last two years. I have send out over 2000 applications my 3L year and even more after that but found no success. My case is not an isolated one, out of a class of over 200 students I know 2 people who make around 70K which they owe to nepotism no thanks to MSU. Adding insult to injury I have some unpaid tuition owed to MSU-DCL and MSU-DCL have repeatedly refused to release my transcripts to the State Bar unless I pay 20K in full. MSU-DCL has even blocked online access to my grades. The purpose of a college is to empower its students to earn a living wage but MSU is in the business to awarding its graduates with 100k in non dischargeable loans while empowering them with a non marketable degree which will ensure economic destitution for the rest of their lives. On a practical note please see the MSU employment statistics, (44.44%+12.12%)=Over 56% of grads are working for solo practitioners or less than 10 attorney law firms, which are basically shoe string law firms most of which are started by recent MSU law students themselves. Most of them are financially non-viable, operating from parents' garage and cannot even afford website hosting fees of $15 per month are prone to closures within 6 months of operation. BUY A HOT DOG STAND BUT DONT GO TO MSU LAW SCHOOL!!!!


  45. This comment has been removed by the author.

  46. "The writing and analysis would be great - if it had been written by a middle school kid"

    Interesting. When I was in an English PhD program at Mich. State, I and a few classmates organized a writing workshop at DCL-MSU, at the law school's behest--apparently professors were getting tired of unreadable exams. We worked closely with 1L students and their law writing instructors. Interesting experience, but there were a lot of very weak writers in there--imagine briefs written by freshman composition students. The verdict of the law faculty was that we helped a lot, but there were some students who were more or less beyond help.

    I sometimes wonder if going for that PhD was a good idea--I ended up teaching at a fourth tier U, but at least it's full time+tenure, and I didn't rack up any debt getting there. After reading the NYT article and some of the law school scam blogs, I've lost any lingering suspicions that law school might have been the better option.

  47. I recall also during a planning meeting with legal writing faculty early in our first year of the workshop, they said that while students often came in assuming they would graduate into 6-figure jobs, the reality was that most would end up working at small firms earning around 30,000. Wonder if they mentioned that at orientation.

  48. @ 10:41 and 10:47 am,

    Thank you for your comments. I am glad that many have read the NYT piece. I am also thrilled that many of those people have decided to post remarks on this site. This will help get the word out. The fact is that students who do not land in Biglaw are more than likely looking at making $35K-$50K a year. Try re-paying $120K in non-dischargeable loans on such an amount.

    There are precious few law firm jobs offering initial salaries in the neighborhood of $80K-$100K. Take a look at William Henderson's bi-modal analysis of recent attorney starting pay.

  49. If michigan state offered a full tuition scholarship, is it still a terrible god awful decision to attend?

  50. US News & World Report just came out with it's latest rankings and MSU is now #95 placing it in the top Tier.

  51. Sorry meant to post the link:

  52. what's next, try to diss harvard?

    Get a life (and a clue) Nando. You went to drake. Drake is miles below Michigan.
    You WISH you could've gone there. Sour grapes.

  53. Anonymous said...
    what's next, try to diss harvard?

    "Get a life (and a clue) Nando. You went to drake. Drake is miles below Michigan.
    You WISH you could've gone there. Sour grapes.

    March 16, 2011 2:13 PM"

    Just so you are aware: here in the State of Michigan, "Michigan" generally refers to the University of Michigan, i.e., that school in Ann Arbor. I believe its law school is undoubtedly "ranked" around or at #9 in the nation currently. I cannot remember our host here ever "dissing" "Michigan". If so, where and when did that occur? I must have missed that.

    Now, Michigan State's co-located law school, the former Detroit College of Law, is a Third or Fourth Tier dumpster, and well-known to be such. Note that I am NOT insulting Michigan State University, only its namesake lower-tiered law school.

    It is you who is sadly mistaken.

  54. try a yahoo search then idiot.

  55. MSU Law school is in the top tier now. First tier. Not third.

  56. To the cretin who posted on May 30, 2011 at 1:57 PM,

    Robert Morse does not own the terms "third tier" and “fourth tier," bitch. Keep in mind that the piece of trash ranked ABA law schools into four tiers, up until the March 2011 edition of US "News" & World Report's graduate school and law school ratings. He merely decided to no longer refer to third tier commodes and fourth tier trash cans as such. I’m sure his family did not notice the shrinkage, in his genitals.

    By your "logic," some ass-clown who does not own the term somehow can eliminate the phrase - with a few clicks of the mouse. In your infantile mind, Morse can magically make things disappear - as if he were a wizard. Are you retarded, or did your parents simply deprive you of oxygen when you were a baby?!?!

    Here is my synopsis of the situation. It may be difficult for someone like you - who has never been exposed to clear language, logic and reason - to understand the argument. If so, then take your laptop to the homeless guy on the bus - and he can try to explain it to you, vegetable.

    Look at the incredible turnaround this toilet has achieved! Michigan State University Commode of Law is now the 95th greatest, most fantastic and amazing law school in the nation! Yes, these pigs are moving up in the world, right?!?! Guess what, moron? The school is still a piece of trash. However, since you feel that this is monumental, MSU is now in the bottom of the second tier. Try not to tear up the city, in celebration of this high “achievement,” dumbass.

  57. If you had a solid argument, you wouldn't need to reduce yourself to ad hominem attacks and crass insults.

    Seriously, all it takes is a one line post of someone mentioning that MSU Law is going up rankings and you need to freak out and insult the hell out of them and MSU Law? It's pretty clear that you have some personal problems that you are parading around as "logic" and "reason."

    Guess you took the rejection pretty hard, huh?

  58. To the piece of garbage who posted on June 10, 2011 at 8:16 am,

    I never applied to this dung pile, cockroach. Try not to make too many assumptions, ass-clown. Someone incorrectly noted that MSU Commode of Law is now first tier. I pointed out that it is now (barely) in the second tier.

    Apparently, YOU have a problem when someone points out facts that do not square with your BELIEFS. You need to get over that, bitch. The world does not revolve around you, mental deficient.

    Also, reporters from legitimate news sources contact me for information on the law school cartel. How often do they contact you for data, cretin?!?!

    Law review articles that mention Third Tier Reality, dumbass:

    Footnote 64 cites TTR and the scam-blogs.

    The entire article focuses on the scam-blogs, bitch. My blog is cited in footnotes 150, 157, 159-161, 179, 210-211.

    TTR is cited in footnote 260, of this article in the Cornell Journal of Law and Public Policy.

    NYT reporter David Segal wrote this indictment on the law school industry, back in January 2011.

    “Avoid this overpriced sewer pit as if your life depended on it,” writes the anonymous author of the blog Third Tier Reality — a reference to the second-to-bottom tier of the U.S. News rankings — in a typically scatological review. “Unless, of course, you think that you will be better off with $110k-$190k in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt for a degree that qualifies you to wait tables at the Battery Park Bar and Lounge.”

    When is the last time YOU were quoted in the New York Times Sunday edition, borderline retard?!?!

  59. complain complain complain complain complain complain complain complain complain complain complain complain complain complain complain .....

  60. To the pig above,

    It is clear that you are a mental giant. Why don't you provide some analysis as to why law school is a good investment for MOST students, cockroach?! The floor is yours, bitch. (We can expect deafening silence, from this ass-hat)

  61. Hello!

    Pig here, or I mean ass-hat. Wait no... cockroach. The bitch. Yes! The bitch. If you want your 'analysis' to be taken seriously you may want to cut down on the potty talk. It makes you come off as stupid.

  62. "Pig here, or I mean ass-hat. Wait no... cockroach. The bitch. Yes! The bitch. If you want your 'analysis' to be taken seriously you may want to cut down on the potty talk. It makes you come off as stupid.

    July 28, 2011 5:22 PM"

    You LOVE it here, and you always come back for more, 5:22.

  63. wow, you all are insane...If I get in to MSU, I will be the happiest I've been in a long time. Try making it in social work for under $20K a year after taxes kiddos and then complain to me about "tiered" law schools... I'd just like to be able to own a house someday, would never be able to with my current job situation...

  64. To the poster above,

    In the final analysis, attending law school is PRIMARILY a financial decision. I understand your concern about low wages in your current field. However, imagine making $30K annual net income, as a social worker - WITH a law degree.

    Try re-paying your student loans - and purchasing necessities - on that salary. You also want to become a homeowner. Good luck with that, as a broke-ass JD. As you should be aware, student loans are NON-DISCHARGEABLE. Try defaulting on those, and see how that affects your life.

  65. What's the alternative? The nay-sayers come across as entitled children. Law school does not guarantee six figures. I think most students understand that. Most people will not attend an Ivy or T-14 school. Is that to say no one else should attend law school? This is elitist at its best. I guess the alternative will be for those few privileged people to become professionals and the rest of us going to State Schools and/or TTT or w/e you like to call them to go work in the fields. Just because it didn't work out for you does not mean you are the rule. Live and let live. This blog has become less about informing about the dangers of debt and law employment than a wholly moronic bashing on the legal profession from an outsider looking in.


    Visits: 13
    Unique ID: 2445232313188373679
    IP address:
    Locale: Hialeah, FL, USA / English
    Platform: Google Chrome 17.0 / Windows 7 / 1366x768

    Apr 6 2012 11:53am 5 actions 3m 24s
    Apr 6 2012 11:13am 2 actions 5m 23s

    To the piece of trash above, i.e. the whining pussy who posted today at 11:56 am,

    I am going to continue to kick the living piss out of the law school pigs, bitch. If that hurts your sensibilities, then try not to shave your vagina too closely next time, mental midget.

    These schools are consigning people to a lifetime of debt servitude. Apparently, you believe that this is not a big deal. This debt not only impacts the students and their immediate families, it also affects society. If these students and grads cannot afford to purchase home or start families, how will that affect the already-declining U.S. birth rate, cretin?!?! Also, home sales are a cornerstone of this consumer-based economy, moron.

    Companies and entire industries will then rely further on foreign, cheap labor. (I'm sure that you will be among those bitching and crying about the influx of immigrants, too.) If this is beyond your mental ability to comprehend, then you need to move onto lighter material. Try sticking to coloring books and Legos, you piece of garbage.

    By the way, bitch, PLENTY of sociologists, social commentators, comedians, news analysts, businessmen and "law professors" - outsiders of the legal "profession" - have been pointing out that the legal system is a joke. Don't forget this, borderline retard: law is a business, not a profession. Get that through your thick skull, waterhead!

    Look at this indictment leveled against the supposed "profession," written by a Yale law professor in 1939! It is entitled "Woe Unto You, Lawyers!" How do you like that, cockroach?!?!


    Check out this story about a woman and cancer patient who was able to discharge her student loans - due to TOTAL DISABILITY. She ended up going through additional hell, when she was not informed that she needed to report this to the IRS as Cancellation of Debt Income. The piece of human excrement from Hialeah, Florida will not be able to understand this piece, as the cockroach can barely read - or follow a basic argument.

    After I shoved a plunger up your corroded ass, make sure to "live and let live," dung beetle. You are dismissed. Have a lousy time as an outsider, at Michigan State University Commode of Law, dumb ape.

  67. US News now ranks MSU Law as 82 in the nation. MSU is also notorious for offering 50% scholarships to nearly half of its incoming class. Would this make it a better option Nando?


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