Sunday, July 18, 2010

Deconstructing Crooklyn, a.k.a. Brooklyn Law School

[Disclaimer: Do not read this entry if you have recently eaten a meal, as this festering toilet will make you sick.]

This TTR profile is LONG overdue. So excuse me while I place a couple of stiff right jabs to the Adam’s apple and mouth, before landing a roundhouse left hook to Brooklyn’s beak.

Tuition: For the 2010-2011 academic year, a full-time student at Crooklyn will pay $46,610 in tuition and fees!! However, part-time students will only be charged $35,040 for the same school year. What a relief, huh?! If you cannot afford to attend this school full-time, you have the option of attending the part-time program.

Total Estimated Cost of Attendance: Under the worst case scenario, i.e. a full-time student living on his own, the total COA will be $69,860. The sewer of law estimates that, under this situation, books, housing, utilities, living expenses, transportation and loan fees will add another $23,250 to the tab. Yes, you read that correctly. A full-time BLS student who lives independently can look forward to paying SIXTY NINE THOUSAND, EIGHT HUNDRED AND SIXTY DOLLARS for one year of law school.

Even under the “least-worse” scenario, where a part-time law student lives with family, the total COA is estimated to be $44,020. Such a student could easily rack up $165K in debt over the course of 4 years. Would YOU make this “investment”?

Entering Class Profile: Crooklyn received nearly 6,000 applications, for its 2009 entering class. The truly harrowing part? This entering class is comprised of 496 students, of which 406 are enrolled full-time!! Apparently, New York needs an ADDITIONAL ARMY of new lawyers, right?!?!

Intangibles: Under Intellectual Life, you can learn about The Journal of Law and Policy. If you are lucky enough to write onto this pre$TTigiou$ law journal, surely law firms and government agencies will be CLAMORING to hire you, right?!?! (Yeah, just like Jessica Alba is clamoring to dig her nails into my back.)

Ranking: According to a publication by the name of U.S. News & World Report, Crooklyn is rated as the 67th most outstanding, amazing, fantastic, mesmerizing law school in the United States - in a five-way tie with Kansas, PiTT$burgh, New Mexico, and Vanillanova. Yay!!

Employment Placement Figures: The school claims/asserts a job placement rate of 91.3% for its Class of 2009 - within nine months of graduation, of course. Remember, the law schools do not only consider legal employment, when reaching/creating these figures. This being the case, we should ask the following: How many of these JDs are working the register at Radio Shack? What percentage of graduates from the Crooklyn Class of 2009 is stocking the bar with foreign and domestic drafts at Fourth Avenue Pub? And how many licensed attorneys from this graduating class are checking IDs at B Hive Lounge?

“This year, we received salary information from 71% of our graduates in private practice.”

Starting Salary Statistics: Based off of this “stellar” response rate, the school publishes the following median figures - for those in private practice: $160K for those in firms that are larger than 500 attorneys; the same amount for those in law firms of between 250-500 lawyers; $150K for those Crooklyn JDs hired by firms of 101-250 attorneys; $75K for those hired on at firms of 51-100 lawyers; $66,625 for those in firms of 26-50 lawyers; $65K for those who were taken in by law firms of 11-25 attorneys; and $60K for those hired by firms of 2-10 lawyers.

Apparently, it does not make much difference - in terms of salary - if you get hired by a firm of 50 lawyers, or by one with only 2-10 attorneys on staff! And I guess those stories of Crooklyn grads struggling to pull down $37K are mythical tales, too, right?!?!

Conclusion: Crooklyn is a drastically overpriced second tier sewer. It is located in the HEAVILY OVER-SATURATED NYC legal market. Graduates of this second tier sewer will be competing directly against JDs from the following elite law schools in the geographic area: Columbia, NYU, Cornell, Harvard, Yale, and the University of Pennsylvania. How the hell is the average law student at this overpriced dump supposed to compete with that?!

If you are not STRONGLY connected, do not attend this law school - under ANY circumstances.
Otherwise, you will be committing financial suicide. If your goal/dream is to work in public interest law, surely you can attend CUNY or SUNY and avoid $210K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE student debt.


  1. Ha, awesome picture but it seems the toilet should be labeled "unemployment and bankruptcy". The current picture implies that these people will actually have jobs.

  2. Great post.

    As a SUNY-Buffalo Law grad (and downstate native), i've never understood the attraction of Brooklyn Law.

    For starters, it's not affiliated with a real university - this should be a huge, red flag for prospective students. Brooklyn is devoid of the larger, university alumni/professional network of lower priced schools affiliated with real, comprehensive universities (e.g. Buffalo, UCONN and Rutgers).

    Amazingly, there were actually folks who transferred from Buffalo to Brooklyn Law after 1L.

    Anyone contemplating Brooklyn Law should give SUNY-Buffalo a good, close look. Going >$210,000 in debt for the "opportunity" to make $35-60K in shit law is the height of stupidity.

  3. I never quite understood why college grads were attracted to Crooklyn Law School. I suppose they have the mentality of a fly and we all know flies flock to shit. This school is vastly OVERRATED. During the economic boom, Biglaw would pick up a dozen of Crooklyn's top students. In this economy, I am not so certain that Biglaw even makes a pit stop at this dump during OCI. I am sure there are still a few firms that have a soft spot for Crooklyn (read: alumni). But is it enough to invest $165-180K for a chance to be one of the handful of Biglaw lottery "winners?"

    Nando, you completely missed discussing the beloved administrators of this commode. No discussion of Crooklyn Law is complete without featuring Queen, ex officio CEO, fomer Dean Joan Wexler and her viceroy Joan King. I suppose all those botox treatments are expensive and the money has to come out of somewhere. It's a good thing that these august administrators are handsomely compensated and I am sure the incoming class is very glad to fork over $46+K a year to attend this "illustrious" institute of higher learning.

    BTW, the picture used is about the most accurate description of what happens when you attend a tier 2 school.

    If kids really want to explore the alternative careers you can embark on with a Crooklyn law degree, google Brooklyn Law with the following terms: "Playboy" and "cupcakes."

    One last item, I could give a rat's ass that USNWR says that the top 100 law schools are in the first tier. This is a marketing ploy. As far back as I can remember the first tier was comprised of the top 50 schools and these were broken down into level one (T10) and level two (T11-50). Of course, what do I know? I am only a partner that attended law school in the '80s.

  4. De-construct, uh? More like decimated or leveled. I mean, you fucking went Nagasaki on this dump. (Couldn't happen to a better toilet.) Yes, you left out Wexler and Her Highness Joan King. Other than that, good profile.

  5. Weak post. The employment numbers are nowhere near what you mentioned. The fact that they say as many as 71% are reporting makes Crooklyn Law Toilet's deception pretty damning because it means that they are going through hoops to paint a false picture.

    The school's a total dump. Next time you should solicit information from students who attend these toilets. I think a lot of people will be willing to give an off-the-record blurb.

  6. Before the economy went into the shitter (pre-2008), BLS alums couldn't make headway into permanent legal positions. For example, this article from 2007 features a 2005 BLS alum who was making $30/hr as a contract attorney without any benefits.

    Mr. Meth owed $200K in student loans and couldn't break into Biglaw even with an Ivy UG degree. At this point, the $30/hr contract attorney jobs seem like a dream. Nowadays, you can get $25-28/hr if you are lucky and some assignments are paying $18-20/hr (compare that to an auto mechanic that makes about $50/hr).

    In my experience, the people that are most fucked coming out of BLS are the ones that attended NYU undergrad. And for some reason, BLS attracts many NYU grads. I personally know someone who borrowed over $300K to attend both NYU UG and BLS. This kid thinks about suicide and expatriation everyday.

    There is some hope though. For example, Mr. Bernamoff dropped out of BLS after his second year to pursue a culinary career.

    Fun fact about BLS: Bernie "who made off with Billions" Madoff attended BLS but was smart enough to drop out. I guess you can't outswindle a swindler.

    Other prominent BLS alums include: the former inept Mayor David Dinkins and Geraldo "I hit jackpot on Al Capone's vault" Rivera.

    Finally, the writing is on the wall. BLS is located on Joralemon Street. Hmm, Joralemon= You're a lemon or you're a lemming (if you attend this school).

    You are welcome Nando. But I expect an update on the famed administrators of this school, particularly the recently elevated CEO Wexler and the 2007 Beastly Behavior Award winner, Joan King:

  7. Joan Wexler's Flaccid PenisJuly 18, 2010 at 5:09 PM

    Seriously, you have been at this for nearly a year and yo9u just barely got to this fucking dump? Talk about falling asleep at the wheel. BLS is shit and everybody - and I mean everybody - knows it. Next time, do an update on that wicked cunt Joan Wexler. Thank you.

  8. Hey Nando, I agree with the rest of the comments. You dropped the ball on this school. There is so much material on this school on the internet. And how can you not mention the dual headed hydra Joans that run that asylum?

  9. Deloitte and Touche LLP CEO went to BLS. But then he got LLM from NYU Aand went to work for accounting firm, where all accountants think that lawyers a supermen of brain power. Accountants are dumb.

  10. Where exactly is there room for lawyers? Rural areas don't need them, because there's a handful that dominate their legal communities. Then everyone goes to big cities such as NY and face even tighter competition.

  11. Ahh yes, apparently the administators at BLS are also culinary masters. This USNWR story from 2009 shows how the strategic massaging of numbers prevented BLS from taking a nosedive in the rankings.

    Of course the school's defense was the plain vanila "inadvertent error" crap. Interestingly enough, the school's official response has been removed from the internet:

    This school is synonomous with smoke and mirrors. I am afraid this school would shame David Copperfield's ability to make all that federally guaranteed student loan money go up in smoke.

  12. The modern world is built on lies.

    The law school scam is just one of them.

  13. I come on here to read about BLS. And I see a comment from some cocksucker calling himself Doug. OK, fine. Does Doug realize that no one on god's green earth gives a rat's ass whether he lives or dies in a car fire? Evidently, he is too stupid to recognize that. And Where did this entry mention the LSAT?

  14. BLS is a classic feast or famine school, just like SJU, Fordham, Cardozo, NYLS, and the two NJ schools. Unfortunately, right now is famine time. My only advice would be, go there at night and get some schmuck employer to pay for it. Barring that, graduate in top 5% with a scholarship on Law Review. Otherwise, I have no sympathy for you.

  15. “LSAT and Law School Apps are still peaking, so what you're doing is paying off!

    Keep it up!

    I’ll help you wade through the post without even reading it:

    1)BLS is expensive
    2) BLS lies about employment and salary numbers
    3) Anyone who goes to law school now is a dumbass/lemming


  16. Doug,

    You made a big deal a while back about how you, as a uniformed cop, reported abuses (allegedly) committed by your fellow Pittsburgh-area police officers. Remember when you made this claim, and gave yourself a big pat on the back?! Frankly, I’m not even sure if you were a cop, as most everything you state is a lie or gross distortion. (By the way, how is your Investment Blog coming along?) However, for the sake of argument, let’s say you were a cop and that you did, in fact, snitch on your fellow officers.

    Has police misconduct been eradicated? Have the number of reported instances of police brutality and corruption gone down significantly in the Pittsburgh area? (Let’s not forget that many of these claims are from people/criminals who are just looking for a “get out of jail free card.”) Are cops, in Pennsylvania and around the country, no longer engaging in shady conduct? If not, then what was the point of snitching on your fellow brothers and sisters in law enforcement? What did you gain, other than a swift kick in the ass – and the hostility of Pittsburgh-area police officials?

    The goal of this blog has never been to cut LSAT applications down by a certain percentage. The stated goal has always been to inform prospective law students about the dangers inherent in going to law school. People will reach their own decisions – and often they are self-destructive or not fully thought out. I can’t preclude that from happening, but I – and the other scam-busters – have received a fair amount of emails and blog comments from people who have decided to avoid law school. And these blogs played a role in that.

    In contrast, what have you done, other than encourage others to take the LSAT and go to law school, when YOU have not so much as sat through your first law school lecture? Take heed of the following words: “By their fruits, ye shall know them.”

    Furthermore, why not become a private investigator, with your background in law enforcement? Get this, idiot: by doing so, you could actually: (a) avoid dipping into your “massive” savings/pension for a foolish endeavor, i.e. law school; (b) actually earn a nice salary, by working in the private sector – and still receive your public pension; (c) quit playing Xbox at home while your wife brings home the bacon – hell, you admitted as such; and (d) build up a clientele.

    But law school is a better option for you, right?!?!

  17. Who drew that picture? It's hilarious. And I agree with the first commenter that the toilet should be relabeled "unemployment/doc review/shitlaw".

  18. Crooklyn Law student bears it all:

    I especially loved the first picture where she covered her private parts with gavels. It gives a new meaning to the term "gavel bang."

  19. I need to turn you on to another blog-


  20. What do you commies have against a private company charging its students $46,000 a year, again? This is what the free market will bear.

  21. because they are raping the economy by fleecing SLM and private lenders into charging exhorbitant tution and fees not borne by free market salaries.

    Higher education in this country is an out and out scam. There is simply no justification for these tuition levels. College and law school professors are just not that valuable, nor are the members of the administrations.

  22. I read some of Doug's shitty blog...

    He actually doesn't encourage anyone to go to law school, from what I could see. He warns about the same things as you do, although he does give advice for the LSAT and scholarships, so I guess he kind of endorses it.

    BTW, I have a friend that should be picking up some hours in $hittsburgh Law's Admin. Office in the Fall!

    Bryan, a TTTT 2L (Duquesne)

  23. To 7:53, thank you for the link to the article from US News. Morse notes that the school did not report the LSAT and GPA scores of its incoming part-time students. I love the response from Crooklyn:

    “This year, however, we mistakenly inserted only the information provided for the previous two questions—the LSAT/GPA information for our full-time students. This error was completely inadvertent. There was no intention to hide the existence of our part-time program, as evidenced by substantial other information we provided about our part-time program elsewhere in the questionnaire."

    OF COURSE it was an “inadvertent error”. What else could explain this situation, right?!?! After all, Brooklyn Law School is SUCH a haven for integrity and ethics!

    @2:58, look for an upcoming TTR profile on the administration of this dump - along the lines of features done on TTThoma$ Mengler and James Leipold. Thank you for the links you provided, also.

    I saw the Diverse Education article you sent, but I try to keep these entries somewhat concise. This post could have easily been 2-3 times longer than it is.

    You referred to BLS graduate Israel Meth. I was more sickened by the situation of Mike Altmann, a fellow Crooklyn grad:

    “The market is particularly tough in big cities that boast numerous law schools. Mike Altmann, 29, a graduate of New York University who went to Brooklyn Law School, says he accumulated $130,000 in student-loan debt and graduated in 2002 with no meaningful employment opportunities one offer was a $33,000 job with no benefits.”

    This man went $130K in the hole financially for this asset, and he graduated with NO MEANINGFUL EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES. Unless, of course, the industry apologist cockroaches think that a job offer of $33K and no bennies is meaningful employment.

    As far as the smoked meat poutine offered by BLS dropout Noah Bernamoff goes, has anyone here ever visited Mile End in Brooklyn? Does the dish live up to its billing?

    The ABA Journal piece goes on to state:

    “Of the law school classmates [Bernamoff] still keeps in touch with, he estimates, "80 percent are taking bar review courses without any prospect of work at the end of it," like many of their compatriots throughout the country. And, had he stayed in school, he would be in the same position, Bernamoff says. "For that to be the case in a city that employs just tens of thousands of lawyers, it's frightening."

    Now, this guy was smart enough to read the writing on the wall, and get out of law school. (Although, it seems that he is contemplating a return to his “legal studies”.) Sadly, too many lemmings will “persevere” and finish their law degree - out of a misplaced sense of honor/accomplishment and a desire not to bring “shame” onto their family. Well, that pride will land many of these tools WELL into six-figure non-dischargeable debt.

  24. This is just an awful law school. It's ranked so low and it charges an arm and a leg and maybe its top 5 students every year go to Biglaw. Essentially, the only time you should think about going to this school is if you're getting a full ride and a living stipend...

  25. Nando, what is even more sickening is the false optimism that is displayed by the lemmings on Top Law Schools. Go to the forum titled "Class of 2013" and click on the "Brooklyn Law School" thread. Most of these deluded kids think a JD from BLS and coddling from Joan Wexler/King will ensure a life of "models and bottles." Ignorance is bliss.

    One last item, if Joan King were filing 10K annual statements with the SEC that contained misleading information, she would be brought up on criminal charges. I would love to see how the "inadvertent error" defense holds up in court.

    I have to give the great Joans' their due. They run a slick oiled machine that keeps attracting lemmings each year who are willing to pay more and more for an inferior product. What makes it even more genius is that these pernicious predators can sit atop their ivory towers without fearing criminal repercusions. Law school scam >>>>>>>>>>>>>> organized crime.

  26. Nando, thank you for finally taking down this sinkhole. There was a time when BLS was a conduit into the Brooklyn DA's office, but I have heard that has dried up too.

  27. You guys are doing great work! anonymous or not, you have the respect of a lot of practicing attorneys like me. If we ever dig ourselves out of the quick sand ABA has sunk us into, it will be because of committed activists like you and your fellow bloggers! Please figure out a way for us to get the US Department of Education to strip ABA of its accreditation status. THere are other orgs such as AALS that would be a lot more cautious about accrediting new schools than ABA. Please lets just all get together and push back at this oppressor the ABA- STRIP THE ABA OF ITS ACCREDITATION STATUS - its doing more to harm than help us!

  28. BLS victim # 12,309July 20, 2010 at 5:41 AM

    so...when can we look forward to seeing the feature on Super-Bitch Joan Wexler?

  29. My son attended BLS a while back. When he was considering law school, I think tuition was about $33-$34K. I was then a 46 year-old attorney in a mid-sized firm.

    I told my kid that this school is too expensive, and that I could not guarantee him a job. I was not parter, I didn't own my own law firm, and I was not a hiring manager. I also didn't have pull with the hiring manager. I was just a staff attorney. I never made great money but was able to provide for my wife and kids pretty well.

    So who does this kid listen to, his girlfriend and his UG peers or the lawyer with 20 years experience in the field? Now, he is our only child still living at home. (he is the oldest of our kids, too.) BLS is a terrible choice.

  30. I know a lawyer who when you walk into his office, he has all these fancy certificates on his wall including an undergrad diploma from NYU. His BLS degree, however, is missing from the wall. When I inquired why he didn't have his BLS degree on display his response was: "I didn't want to convert my office into a wall of shame."

    I wonder how much a BLS JD diploma would fetch on ebay. A Georgetown JD diploma recently fetched $450. Which probably means a BLS JD diploma would get a winning bid of $.06.

  31. [Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm writing this post under the assumption that a blogger has some discretion over the advertisements which appear on his page]:

    What the fuck is with the so-called "grandfather" of the scam-busting movement allowing TTT, TTTT and TTTTT law$$$$chools to post advertisements all over his blog. You can see the adds for Massachusetts School of Law and Thomas Jefferson School of Law here (just refresh to see advertisements change):

    Now, I enjoyed the Calico essay as much as the rest of you. I also understand that this guy makes money off his advertisements. However, this type of display pisses all over what that essay stood for. There should be no tolerance for this garbage in the movement. So Half Sigma, this is my plea to you to stop being part of the problem and a SHILL FOR THE INDUSTRY and take that fucking nonsense down. Dust yourself off and get back to work.

    [Apologies for posting this again here, but for some rea$on it didn't get published at Half Sigma]

  32. So funny!

    No, not the post, but the comments by these supposed anonymous "practicing attorneys". Give me a break!

    You failures are deluding yourselves by posting as practicing attorneys now...almost.too.pathetic.for.words.

  33. To the idiot at 7:14 am,

    For your personal amusement, here is a real life story of a struggling attorney:

    A former classmate who graduated with strong grades and journal experience took out $125K+ in student loans to attend Third Tier Drake. She went to many “mixers” and socials. She applied for tons of legal and non-legal positions. She only landed a handful of interviews, and went on to pass the bar exam.

    However, she had no job offers. So she decided to take court-appointed cases. She did not have any clinical experience, but she needed to pay the bills. (This is risky, as the state bar likes to discipline attorneys. Of course, the schools that dump these lawyers onto the unsuspecting public are off the hook, entirely.) Anyway, that is what responsible, desperate adults do, kid. She was recently screwed over a coffee table, by the state, for the amount of $450 in legal fees.

    The process is as follows: you turn in your hours within a certain time so that your file gets processed within 45 days of final decision, in a case. If it does not get processed within this time frame, the state may, i.e. will, deny your petition for reimbursement.

    Here is how it can work in practice: My friend turned in her hours within one week of final disposition, and the state sat on it for 2 months. The state then denied her application, by informing her that it was not processed with the statutory time frame. You get that, lemmings?!?! The State of Iowa sat on this for two months, and then used this excuse to deny the application for reimbursement. (They also like to point out that the judicial branch has suffered a lot of budget cuts in the last few years, which is the case.)

    Not one month later, another county offered her a court-appointed case. She told them to go to hell. The other day, she told me that, “I don’t want to do pro bono work for the state any more. I am also behind on my CLEs, which are about $200, but I have no money to pay them.”

    As to her student loan situation, she will pay $900 a month in student loan payments for the next 360 months. (I just made a $283 payment on my law school student loans, and I wince when I write that check.) This person had no student loans from her undergraduate degree, as she received a scholarship to attend and had help from family. ALL of this debt is from attending law school! My friend is now looking for a part-time job at night.

    Do you think you will fare better, law school hopeful?

  34. Nando,

    Here's the problem I see with trying to spread the word to 0Ls:

    As you can see in this article, even showing in detail to these people how big of a mistake law school is, it would likely only make them want to go more. The psychology of it is problematic.

    It's how you wind up with people like this:

  35. Seems like 7:14AM is in for a rude awakening. He/she kind of reminds me of the Krakow concentration camp prisoner who would tell others "it's ok to go inside there (gas chamber), you are going to be examined by doctors and they will make you better."

    Make no mistake, 3 years spent at the asylum on Joralemon and $200K debt later, you will want to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge.

  36. Nando, enjoy this article:

    Puppy mills? Why is it that law school seems to be the only for profit enterprise that is immune from criminal or consumer fraud laws? A majority of these schools pump out numbers that are knowingly FALSE. The pipe dreams that are featured on their glossy brochures are a fraudulent inducement to sucker kids into investing six figures for a worthless degree.

    How can these law schools continue to play the con game by saying that employment stats are sustainable, even during this recession, when other objective data exists to contradict these lies? BLS claims over 90% employment within 9 months of graduation. Yet, summer associate hires were down nearly 50% this year, meaning that almost 50% less law grads will get biglaw jobs next year (from 2L OCI), yet BLS continues to claim their numbers are still going strong.

    All this makes me wonder why Joan Wexler abdicated her throne as Regina Dean of Crooklyn Law to become CEO (is BLS a law school or a for profit corporation?). I hope the interim dean has an exit plan as it seems he is being set up to be the patsy fall guy.

  37. @1:23 pm,

    Thank you for the links. I read the first article the other day, and emailed the author. She responded and wanted to know the reaction to this post from Crooklyn Law School. I will have a more definite read on the situation, after I post my Pulitzer Prize-worthy entry on Joan Wexler.

    Regarding the article, THAT is harrowing for those with their hearts set on Biglaw. Apparently, Biglaw 2010 summer hiring is down 44 percent from last year.

    Cravath reports an 81 percent decline, from 123 summer hires firmwide in 2009 to 23 summer hired firmwide in 2010. Pillsbury Winthrop summer hires are down 67 percent, from 51 positions in 2009 to 17 this summer. Skadden has decreased it summer hiring by 65 percent, down from 223 hires in 2009 to 79 hires in 2010.

    This has repercussions for the TTT student, as well - as top law school grads will be scrambling for positions in legal aid, non-profit agencies, state government, and smaller law firms. Apparently, the law school industry apologist cockroaches and clueless lemmings are unable - or unwilling - to acknowledge this reality.

  38. From personal experience, NONE of the attorneys I work with as an intern (many of whom are recent TTT's) say law school is a bad investment. Not one.

    If these people I work with can "get a job," then so can I. It's not that hard. All of this "no job" talk is just a bunch of nervous energy and overanalysis. Ridiculous.

  39. jetters,

    I am an attorney and if a kid asked me for law school advice today, I would encourage them to go. No one wants to be the bearer of bad news and in the case of unsuspecting OL's, no one wants to be a dream crusher or perceived as a "douche." If you tell a kid "don't go to law school," it fuels their false sense of pride to go. Thus, when I am asked "should I go to law school?" I feel that is a loaded Catch-22 question. However, since I can be anonymous on this forum, I will express what I wish I can tell these kids. Law school is a horrible investment (unless you meet the criteria set out in this blogger's mission statement-although I would have to restrict the school ranking to T6, not T8).

    TT/TTT/TTTT grads have it worse. The article regarding the reduction in summer associate hires has a trickle down effect. In this economy, a TT grad has a less than 3% chance of landing Biglaw. A TTT grad has less than 1% chance and a TTTT grad has 0% chance(unless they have a POWERFUL connection). So the Biglaw summer associate hires really don't impact on TT/TTT/TTTT grads that much; however, they have a greater impact on Tier one grads who are forced to look for jobs that they would have looked down on a couple of years ago, you know the jobs TT/TTT/TTTT grads were competing for. Biglaw's reduction in force means TT/TTT/TTTT are fucked harder in the long run because they now have to compete with Tier one grads, which means their job prospects look even dimmer.

    Jetters, you come off as such a nice fellow, so my advice to you is go law school. You and law school will make a match made in heaven--but be careful, you may wind up paying more for the experience over the course of your life than you would have had you gotten married and divorced.

  40. "There was a time when BLS was a conduit into the Brooklyn DA's office, but I have heard that has dried up too."

    Back in the day, there were more ADAs, PDs, and criminal court judges in the greater NYC area who went to BLS than to any other law school. If you went to law school specifically because you wanted to do criminal law, it was a very good choice, esp. if you had a high LSAT score and were offered even a partial scholarship to defray part of the tuition cost. For me, that made it a better and more cost-effective choice than the higher-ranked Fordham. But this was back in the late 80s/early 90s.

    With the current tuition and the starting salaries for ADAs and PDs, the only way it makes sense is if you're on a full scholarship or your parents are footing the bill *and* practicing criminal law is what you really, really want to do with your life. And that's probably been the case for the past 10 years, at least.

  41. Since most lawyers are inherently miserable wretches, especially those coming from TTTs and/or with 6 figure debt, perhaps schools like BLS can teach "happiness" as a law elective. After all a T14 like Duke (which is a happy school because 100% of its grads have jobs) teaches "happiness." With annual tuition of close to $50K a year, I hope those "happiness" courses come with a lifetime supply of prozac because God knows you will need it.

  42. Epilogue at BLS' OCS:

    Clerk: Ms. King, we just received a letter from the law school transparency project asking about employment stats and median salaries.

    J.King: Quickly, factor in the $250K that 2009 BLS alum Masha Saiedi-Azcuy will win on the upcoming Apprentice. That should raise the starting median salary for 2009 grads.

    Pop quiz kids: Does an appearance on a reality show count as employment for purposes of being employed within X amount of time from graduation?

  43. We're all fucked....^DJI,^GSPC,SPY,MCD,WMT,XRT,DIA

  44. Nando, you've just uncovered the tip of the iceberg when it comes to law schools in the northeast. I think this area of the country represents the epicenter of the higher education scam. See Syracuse, Quinnipiac (whatever the hell that is), Suffolk ... and more. All TTTTTTTTTTTT and $40k+

  45. I went to BLS in the 1990s, part-time and on my employer's dime (a lot of the part time night students worked full time with a nice percentage of us receiving tuition reimbursement) and their tuition rates were about on par with other NYC schools. There is not much they can do about living expenses as it is NYC but I can't believe how much tuition has gone up. I think I paid around $14k for the year back in 1995 which should be only around $20k today with inflation. With tuition for part timers more than double that there is no way I would do law school today (and my employer stopped paying tuition almost a decade ago).

  46. is there a Fordham Law "deconstruction?"

  47. @ 7/19/2010 10:16

  48. It's an informative post. I very much look forward to read this post. Law School Experience – An Oswego based leading law education experience provide you legal education, law courses, law degree, law school classes and online law programs with Socratic method. We bring the unique challenges – challenges you’ve never encountered.Visit for more information on

  49. If Nando posts a Fordham law deconstruction, it would end ALL CREDIBILITY of this blog now and forever. It would be the ultimate doom of this blog and he knows it.

  50. "Odnan said...
    If Nando posts a Fordham law deconstruction, it would end ALL CREDIBILITY of this blog now and forever. It would be the ultimate doom of this blog and he knows it.

    June 29, 2011 12:31 PM"

    By implication, then, the blog now has credibility?

  51. Nando, would you still advise me against going to BLS with a full scholarship?

    1. I would definitely advise against going to BLS even with a full scholarship. You are spending your time and time is precious. If you can get into Columbia Law or NYU I would go for it (even with loans). In the end, you will have a job. I know personally of a brilliant student that got full ride at BLS and decided to attend. He is now a B student and will probably end up like other B average students that graduate from BLS--either jobless or earning a ridiculously small salary at some small firm.

  52. Mike, surely you can make your own decision. You don't need me to advise you to wipe your ass, or brush your teeth, correct?

    Failing that, you can read, can you not? Check out the header, and look at the exceptions, Mike. If you were unable to locate that on your own, then I highly doubt that any ABA-accredited law school would extend an offer of a full-tuition scholarship to you. By the way, if you don't mind facing a shrinking job market and some student debt, then what is stopping you from enrolling?!

    I received a full-tuition scholarship to attend law school, and I still incurred some student debt. Furthermore, my wife was employed full-time, in her field, during the entire time I was at Third Tier Drake. You will still need to come up with living expenses.

  53. BLS also started charging their students for printing (something like 5c/page) in the computer lab (I was appalled). All the problems at BLS mentioned in this article are true (I know, I graduated BLS several years ago). What has not been mentioned is a possibility that the grade system is rigged. I see how brilliant incoming students get mediocre grades and when they ask their professors why there is no explanation. The school administration also does nothing. Remember, there is a curve, and the curve is not in your favor!


    On January 22, 2013, Cockroach Lawrence Solan wrote a HuffPo piece labeled “Pay Associates Less? A Novel Response to a Rapidly Changing Legal Market.” Next to his ugly photo, you will see that his title is Director of the Center for the Study of Law, Language, and Cognition at Crooklyn Law School. Take a look at this excerpt:

    “Why not cut associate pay in the early years? For example, offer them $75,000, $125,000 and $175,000 for the first three years, respectively. This salary cut will permit firms to continue to train the next generation of elite lawyers in substantial numbers, while shifting some of the cost of training its most junior associates from the clients to the trainees themselves. Moreover, although large firms face pressure to remain competitive, the promise of these substantial raises should be a significant enticement to attract the best talent. Finally, savvy business clients will respect and choose firms that honestly link compensation to the realities of the market.”

    Dumbass fails to understand that Biglaw pigs are relying more heavily on contract attorneys. Why would they feel the need to dramatically increase the salary of lower-paid, new associates - in the second and third year?!?! Plus, the cockroaches can now hire foreign lawyers AND non-attorneys to engage in American legal discovery. See ABA “Ethics” Opinion 08-451.

    On January 26, 2013, Paul Campos shoved an oak tree up Lawrence Solan’s ass, with his brilliant, memo style entry “To: Professor Lawrence M. Solan.” Check out this portion:

    “Returning to the entry-level jobs, we do find your suggestion of a $75,000 starting salary a bit high. We sometimes pay that, but we can attract high quality staff attorneys for $60,000--sometimes even less. To see why, consider placement rates for your recent graduates. At Brooklyn Law, your 2011 graduates secured just 17 jobs in firms of more than 500 lawyers. That's just 3.7% of the class. Many more students, 56 members of the class, took jobs with firms of 2-10 lawyers. Those graduates reported a median salary of just $48,750. Surely we could hire any of those 56 graduates for less than $50,000 apiece?

    We are also puzzled by your suggestion that we increase salaries for these attorneys to $125,000 in the second year and $175,000 in the third. Why would we do that? Your law school and others continue to churn out twice as many law graduates as the economy can absorb. Almost one-third of your 2011 Brooklyn graduates (137 out of 455) were completely unemployed nine months after graduation. With that much pent-up demand for work, we can fill as many "career associate" positions as we want without extravagant raises.”

    Here is Campos’s excellent concluding blow to Solan's anus:

    “The bottom line is that we enthusiastically embrace your idea of "shifting some of the costs of training to the inexperienced associates themselves." We've watched you do this in law schools and it was brilliant. Some of us attended Brooklyn Law School in the early 1980s, paying about $4,000 per year. Adjusting for inflation, that would be about $10,000 today. But we see that tuition and fees today are five times higher--just shy of $50,000. That's wonderful: you have captured much of the financial benefit from education for yourselves rather than sharing it with graduates. We admire that, we truly do. If there were some way we could absorb all of the value generated by our associates (and perhaps shift more of our costs to them?) we would do that too. Please let us know if you have ideas on that.”

  55. It is good that satanic shit heaps like Crooklyn get exposed for the frauds that they are. God bless!

    The Great Lawland Prophet, The John Bungsolaphagus.


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