Sunday, August 1, 2010

Clown College of Law: Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law

Tuition: A full-time student at this law school will pay $46,224 in tuition for the 2010-2011 academic year - plus $570 in student fees. That is a hell of a lot of money to pay for one year’s tuition. In fact, that is on par with true heavyweights such as Columbia, which charges $48,648 in tuition for the upcoming school year and Yale Law School, which charges its students $48,500 in tuition for the 2010-2011 school year. (Employers also don’t laugh when they receive a resume from those JDs.) Oh well, at least part-time Carbozo students only pay $30,816 in tuition for the same academic year.

Total Cost of Attendance: Room, board, books, transportation, health insurance, loan fees and miscellaneous expenses are projected to add another $24,459 to the annual bill. This would bring the estimated total COA for a full-time student - for a single damn year at this school - to a mind-boggling $71,253!! After all, who doesn’t have $210K or so to drop down for the pursuit of a law degree, right?!?!

Ranking: This sewer is ranked as the 52nd best law school in the country, by U.S. News & World Report. This means that the school actually has a somewhat decent reputation, unlike most of the dumps featured on this blog. The BIG problem, however, is that Carbozo students and graduates are competing for jobs DIRECTLY with their counterparts from Columbia, NYU and Cornell. Even those not seeking Biglaw will find themselves competing against JDs from this school - as well as those from Harvard, Yale and the University of Pennsylvania.

Employment and Starting Salary Statistics: For the Class of 2009, the school claims a placement rate of 91.5 percent - within 9 months of graduation. The Office of Career Services also asserts that 76.3% of this graduating class was “employed at graduation.” (And people don’t think Bozo is funny.)

“As the charts below reflect, Cardozo graduates are very successful in finding employment in their practice areas of interest, both in the private and public sectors. Of the 63.97% of the class who entered private practice, 55.8% are working at firms of 101 attorneys or more.”

Look at the figures published for Cardozo JDs working in law firms. The school lists a median salary of $160K and an average salary of $120K. The school also notes that 63.97% of this graduating class is employed in law firms. There is a footnote, stating that “91.05% of those working in law firms reported salary information.”

Notice the HUGE drop in salary for those Cardozo JDs working in government, business, public interest, and judicial clerkships. “But, hey, 63.97 percent of the JDs from our Class of 2009 are working in law firms!”

The school also touts that 80.81 percent of all employed students from this class reported salary information. What about the 19.19% who did not report their salary? I know! Maybe those graduates were too embarrassed to report their $230K salaries to the school. After all, they wouldn’t want to make their colleagues and former classmates who are only making $160K to feel bad, right?!?!

What is upsetting is that the school attracts solid applicants and top students, yet these numbers raise false hopes. How many Biglaw firms are taking on summer associates and extending offers to JDs?

The American Lawyer reports that summer hiring was down 44 percent for summer 2010. Cravath reports an 81 percent decline, from 123 summer hires firmwide in 2009 to 23 summer hired firmwide in 2010. Pillsbury Winthrop summer hires are down 67 percent, from 51 positions in 2009 to 17 this summer. Skadden has decreased it summer hiring by 65 percent, down from 223 hires in 2009 to 79 hires in 2010.

But, 55.8% of Carbozo’s Class of 2009 - those who reported their salary, anyway - was employed in a law firm of 101+ lawyers. Maybe, clowns are immune to such cutbacks.

Lastly, the school is known for its Innocence Project, which actually is a commendable clinical program. However, as JJD pointed out on her blog, Cardozo has not hired so much as ONE of its own graduates to work as an attorney on the Innocence Project. Seven staff attorneys, one managing attorney and two co-directors and not a single one earned a JD from Cardozo. Good research, JJD!

Here is the link. You can confirm that the Project has no Cardozo law grads working as attorneys. That should tell you what the school thinks of its own graduates. Why not hire a scrappy lawyer from a place such as Cardozo, when dealing with how to get wrongly-convicted people off of death row?!

The total cost of attendance for this sewer of law exceeds $210,000 and the school does not want its own graduates touching its famed Innocence Project?!?! If you decide to attend this piece of trash, the joke is on you!


  1. Please do a shoutout to Toro law School Fuckesberg school of law and small motor repair shop 2010 graduates

  2. A school that charges $46K/yr but won't hire its own graduates? I have more respect for Barry.

    Oh, and they don't seem to have a fax machine available for students. Another demerit.

  3. Nando, for a minute there I thought you were going to discuss the Carbozo grad that abandoned a legal career in order to pursue a stand up comic act. In fact, the guy is very funny. He starts out his routine by saying: "I went to Cardozo thinking it was a highly prestigious law school that would get me a high paying corporate law job--I guess the joke was on me."

    In all seriousness, I do know many bright people that went to Dozo. Most of them, however, attended with partial or full rides. Anyone paying sticker to attend Carbozo deserves a pie in his/her face.

  4. $46,000 for one year at this dump? You have got to be kidding me. This is too much for one year of legal theory. Will someone put an end to this madness? Imagine what tuition will run a kid in 2030.

  5. Thanks for the shout out Nando. I don't know how they get away with publishing those fictional employment numbers.

  6. Cardozo Law School is shit, and overpriced shit at that. I don't care if these assholes state their grads make$160K per year or not.

  7. Ranked 52?! Outside NY, who knows about this school? Regional TTTs carry more weight outside NY than 'Bozo. Simply makes no sense to go to Brooklyn or Bozo when you will be competing with Columbia, Cornell and other Ivies along with NYU.

  8. Frankly, those numbers don't sound too terrible when compared to most of those we see here. Worth $46k per year? Not even close. But it seems like most of their grads are employed--only 20% aren't reporting. I also had no idea it was ranked so high.

  9. Employed doing what? You don't need a JD to make coffee at Starbucks.

  10. I often wondered whether Cardozo aka Yeshiva University School of Law (the other "YLS") engaged in disparate treatment of its students based on Jewish faith. It would be interesting to compare the scholarship packages received by Jewish and non-Jewish students with similar admission stats. If Cardozo is feeding off the Federal tit (guaranteed student loan funding), aren't they subject to Title VII? It's a shame these numbers aren't reported anywhere but the Dept. of Education can force Cardozo to release these numbers.

    Clearly law schools such as Brooklyn, Cardozo, Seton Hall, Fordham, St. Johns are no where in the same league as Columbia or NYU and are not justified in charging an outrageous sum for an education there. In the case of Cardozo, Barry Scheck, who leads the Innocence project, doesn't have much confidence in a Cardozo grad, which is why he only employs attorneys from the T14.

    Good use of the clown photo. They should hire a clown to give out the JD diplomas at Cardozo's commencement ceremonies.

  11. The fact that not one Cardozo grad is staffed at the innocence project is sickening. The school uses it as such a huge marketing draw as well. I guess they realize that other JDs are simply more qualified.

  12. Check out this self-serving drivel:

    Interview with Matthew Diller, Dean and Professor of Law at Banjamin N. Cardozo School of Law

    "TLS: Each year, New York is a popular destination of the graduates of all of the nation’s top-ranked law schools, not to mention New York’s own traditional “top 4” -- Columbia, NYU, Cornell, and Fordham. How do Cardozo graduates compete in the saturated New York market? What do the job prospects look like for the middle of Cardozo’s class?

    Diller: Cardozo students in the middle of the class are very well situated to compete for NY-based post-grad positions against similarly placed students who come from law schools across the country. Throughout their law school careers, Cardozo students have significant interaction with NY-based attorneys in a broad range of practice areas, through significant networking opportunities as well as through various internship programs we offer in the private and public sectors."

    What’s that you say, Matthew?! Cardozo students that are in the middle of the class are very well situated to compete for “NY-based post-grad positions” against similarly placed students who come from law schools across the country?!?!

    What a mealy-mouthed, evasive response to a direct question. This non-answer amounts to the following: “Middle of the road Cardozo students have *a chance* to land a job somewhere in New York, doing something, upon graduation.” Yes, that is so comforting, isn’t it?

    Here is some more horse crap, courtesy of Diller’s mouth:

    “Our clinics are all in-house and client-based, something you don’t see at most law schools. The internationally renowned Innocence Project was founded at Cardozo and provides direct hands-on experience to many Cardozo students each year.”


    “Cardozo’s May part-time program is distinctive in a few ways. First, students take their classes during the day – ours is not a night school program. Second, students take the core first-year curriculum over three semesters – summer, fall, and spring – and then automatically join the full-time class beginning in their second year. This schedule allows them a bit more time and opportunity to succeed in the first year. They graduate at the same time as the full-time students who begin in the fall. Third, and most importantly, May-entry students have the same quality of education and experience that our full-time students do. They are taught by the same professors and are in the same classrooms as our full-time students.”

    We get it, Matthew. Your May part-time program is not complete and utter crap. Congratulations! One question, however: what is the average UGPA and LSAT score for these part-time students?

  13. EvrenSeven said...
    The fact that not one Cardozo grad is staffed at the innocence project is sickening. The school uses it as such a huge marketing draw as well.

    Well, in all fairness, how many similarly-ranked schools hire their own graduates as faculty? Most law schools will only hire HYS/SCOTUS clerks. They're a little more lax with clinical faculty, but increasingly, not much. As with legal hiring generally, prestige inflation has hit the law schools.

  14. Yet, more flatulence from Dean Diller – from the same article:

    “TLS: U.S. News and World Report currently ranks Cardozo 49th out of law schools nationally. How reflective of real quality are these rankings? Who would you consider Cardozo’s peer institutions?

    Diller: Cardozo’s true peers in terms of the quality of our educational program are schools such as Boston College, Fordham, George Washington, and Emory. But this comparison does not capture the intellectual ambition, energy and accomplishment that I see at Cardozo, as well as the warmth of the community all of which set it apart from schools that may appear similar on paper. As for US News rankings, applicants should be careful how much stock they put in the information, which relies heavily on reputational surveys that are completed each year by law school deans, most of whom know only a bit about a few law schools and yet they are asked to rank each of the nation’s almost 200 law schools on a scale of 1 to 5.”

    [Read: We don’t feel that prospective law students should put much stock in the law school rankings from US News. However, we participate in the scheme, anyway.] Yes, this school truly is a beacon of integrity, huh?

    “TLS: Per the Cardozo Law website, nearly 20 percent of the Class of 2008 ended up in “business.”What sorts of “business” jobs are Cardozo grads pursuing?

    Diller: The 2008 graduates in “business” obtained employment in financial services, publishing, media, and entertainment.”

    Thanks for that vague answer, Matthew. “Business” may also include selling insurance, wearing a headset and answering complaints from cable customers, working as a collections agent, freelance writing for the local, independent weekly newspaper, performing art on busy Manhattan street corners, etc. Wow! What a prestigious law school!!

    Back in 2007, a Cardozo-trained lawyer jumped to his death from the Empire State Building. Apparently, he wasn’t satisfied with his job.

    “It wasn't immediately clear what prompted Kanovsky's suicide.

    "He was interviewing a client," said a man who works in the suite. "He just got up, opened the window and jumped."

    A police source said that Kanovsky met with the client in one room and jumped from another.”

  15. Nando:

    I think you're doing a great public service by pointing out the shenanigans that go on and the worthlessness of many law degrees. I hope you continue your mission and continue to inform everyone about what goes on.

    However, at this moment its getting harder for me to feel sorry for someone who goes to a TTT (without a free ride or very wealthy parents). A minimal amount of research by a potential TTT law student would reveal that the employment figures are rigged and the deck is really stacked against you if you go to a TTT. Several years ago, very few would have thought the figures were so rigged, but that is changing, slowly.

    If someone goes to a TTT because they have nothing better to do, or because they think they'll be in the top 5% of their class and they don't make it, its a bad break, but that's life.

    And I'm not even an attorney: but it kills me when I see friends who are average students go to TTTs or TTs and waste a ton of money would a reasonable expected return.

  16. I talked a (now former) friend out of going to law school a few years back. He has hated me for it, ever since. So much for looking out for friends. I saved the bastard at least $100 G's, and I'm the reason he's stuck making $40,000 in a crappy office job. I ran into his sister about 2 months ago. He still can't get over how he 'could've made law review, and been making double or triple what I he's making.' What do you do with such people? You can't reason with fools.

  17. Mr. Kanovsky's suicide was tragic. It just goes to show you that a TTT degree (Carbozo will always be a TTT regardless of all the "gaming" tactics these schools employ while jockeying for a higher position on the USNWR annual rankings) coupled with shitlaw prospects and indentured servitude to Sallie Mae=Killself.

  18. you have GOT to profile GGU (golden gate) next. It's an even worse analogy... a TTTT competing with Stanford, Hastings, Davis and Boalt graduates, as well as TT SCU and USF and TTT McGeorge.

  19. With respect to the following sentence from your article:

    "But, 55.8% of Carbozo’s Class of 2009 - those who reported their salary, anyway - was employed in a law firm of 101+ lawyers. Maybe, clowns are immune to such cutbacks."

    I think this needs to be read together with the following quote from the cardozo website:

    "OF THE 63.97% of the class who entered private practice, 55.8% are working at firms of 101 attorneys or more."

    Therefore, it appears that only slightly more than half of the 63.97% percent (around 36% of the total cardozo class reporting) wound up in firms with 100 or more attorneys.

    Keep up the good fight.

  20. 86,811 visitors to this blog and only 34 followers? What gives? Is the "message" even getting through? Or is everyone else "in on the scam" too?

  21. I have five or six friends that graduated last year from Tier 4 law schools. They are all employed and work at mid-sized firms. It took a couple of them about 5 or 6 months to find a niche, but it just takes persistence to find the "right fit" for the lawyer and the firm.

  22. “A winner finds a way to succeed instead of a reason to fail.”

    ~ Richard A. Cook

  23. You don't need to be a "follower" to follow the blog. I follow the law school scam blogs daily, but not as a "follower" on blogspot. It's called bookmarking.

  24. 6:15, how many visitors and followers does you website have? oh, and you forgot to count the visitors from outside the states.

  25. The problem is that people are hard-wired to be susceptible to the higher education scam. No one believes that their hard work won't pay off. I've been reading an interesting book called 'Nudge' with deals with behavioral science. An exerpt of this book reminded me of the OL mentality of eternal optimism.

    Professor Richard H. Thaler (co-author of Nudge and Professor of Behavioral Science and Economics and the Director for Decision Research at the University of Chicago's Graduate School of Business) teaches an MBA class called Managerial Decision Making.

    "Before the start of Thaler's class ... students fill out an anonymous survey on the course Web site. One of the questions is 'In which decile do you expect to fall in the distribution of grades in this class?' Students can check the top 10 percent, the second 10 percent, and so forth. Since these are MBA students, they are presumably well aware that in any distribution, half the population will be in the top 50 percent and half in the bottom. Ant only 10 percent of the class can, in fact, end up in the top decile. Nevertheless, the results of this survey reveal a high degree of unrealistic optimism about performance in the class. Typically less than 5 percent of the class expects their performance to be below the median (the 50th percentile) and more than half the class expects to perform in one of the top two deciles. Invariably, the largest group of students put themselves in the second decile. We think this is most likely explained by modesty. They really think they will end up in the top decile, but are too modest to say so."

    This whole top 10 percent quest is laughable anyway. I was one of the lucky few to land in the top 10 percent at my TTTT. Now I'm moving into my cousin's house at the end of the month so that I don't have to sleep on a bench at the bus station.

    -Unemployed DoneL

  26. I met a bunch of kids from this toilet when I was in law school. They all were convinced this place was amazing. I think I'd lie to myself too in order to feel better about paying near 200k for the 4th best law school in NYC.

  27. Nando, I am a constant commentor on JJD's site, anonymously, and was wondering why you two don't join forces and write a statement to the ABA? Perhaps get every scamblogger togehter and gather signatures. The Facebook I dea is ok, but there are online petition sites you guys can use to get the ABA's attention. One plank should be no more lawschools. we want a moratorium now. They are considering three, yes three, new lawscrewels in New York. This will kill the job market. One of them would be on Long Island at Stony Brook. The market is oversaturated locally by Tauro, St. John's, Hofstra and then of course there are the other New york state Law Screwels. Thousands of new grads + few jobs = low or no pay.

  28. “A winner finds a way to succeed instead of a reason to fail.”

    ~ Richard A. Cook

    I don't disagree with this. In fact, it's an inspiring quote. However, to choose something to "win" at that is such a LONG SHOT - and it can be argued very convincingly that success in law at this point in time is a very long shot - is just setting yourself up for disappointment. I am not a negative person at all. After I graduated law school and the scales fell from my eyes about exactly what I'd gotten myself into, I let myself be depressed for a while. Then, I picked my ass up and decided to do what I should have done all along. So I found something that I actually have a great deal of talent for and have an excellent chance of being successful at. Anyone who reads these blogs and doesn't shudder at the thought of attending anything below a T5 or so these days is just setting themselves up for failure and all the tenacity and positivity in the world can't change it. It's like a 500 pound person trying to be a Victoria's Secret model. It's not happening. And I don't mean that rudely at all, but it's true - it's not happening. For most of us, neither is a career in law. Sorry, but it's true. Good luck to all prospective students - I hope you find something more worthwhile to do with your life.

  29. To 3:02 pm,

    “I think this needs to be read together with the following quote from the cardozo website:

    "OF THE 63.97% of the class who entered private practice, 55.8% are working at firms of 101 attorneys or more."

    Therefore, it appears that only slightly more than half of the 63.97% percent (around 36% of the total cardozo class reporting) wound up in firms with 100 or more attorneys.”

    Thank you for pointing that out. I will make a correction on the main entry.

    @6:15, your blog has attracted how many visitors so far? As someone else pointed out, people can choose to bookmark the site.

    Unemployed DoneL is correct. It is quite telling that so many students believe that THEY will succeed, whereas others will not be as successful. I suppose this explains the wealth and status of “positive energy/financial health gurus” such as Joel Osteen and Tony Robbins. These “life coaches” and motivational speakers are simply selling people who WANT to be sold on an idea. Because, if you just have a positive outlook on life, things WILL just work out for you, right?!?!

    Thank you for your kind words, Jeff. I am simply trying to get the information out to potential law students, so that they can make an INFORMED consumer decision. I have no sympathy for those who choose to ignore this advice. They do so at their own peril. I went to law school on a full scholarship and my spouse worked the entire time I was in school. We lived frugally, and I still took on another $37K in additional, non-dischargeable student debt.

    I also get upset when I see kids going to TTTs and TTTTs, because they honestly think they will make the top 10 percent. However, the reality is that one needs to be among the top 5 or 10 STUDENTS at these dumps to have a good-to-strong chance at employment in a law firm.

    To 8:49 am, I do not think such a letter to the ABA will be well-received. (Hell, my letter to Congressman Conyers has not received so much as a response.) More importantly, the ABA will NOT act on such a recommendation. Look at this exchange between an NYU Law grad and the president of this organization.

    “Lamm further explained to ATL that the ABA is looking into whether or not it needs to do more to keep law schools honest about the employment prospects of their graduates.”

    This was back from January 27, 2010. Do you think the ABA is really looking into this?

  30. FYI to any 0L or consortium of investors thinking of opening a law school: Do not attend or name a school after a U.S. Supreme Court Justice. That is so TTT (e.g., Thurgood Marshall, Sandra Day O'Connor, John Marshall, Louis Brandeis, Cardozo, etc.).

  31. Don't forget law schools named after U.S. presidents. Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln come to mind. How could I forget Franklin Pierce Law Center? The school was named after a shitty-ass TTT president! BWAHAHAHAH!

    And, there are two John Marshall law schools, one in Chicago and the other in Atlanta. And both are shit.

  32. This is fun. Salmon P. Chase College of Law is the law school at world-renowned Northern Kentucky UNiversity. Are there others out there?

  33. I hear the proposed new SUNY law school in Stony Brook will be named the Felix Franfurter Center for Law and Justice. At the rate the ABA is approving new law schools, don't be surprised to see the opening of the Clarence Thomas Legal Institute in the near future.

  34. The sky is falling. Except that....maybe its not.


    Here is some more Carbozo nonsense:

    "Barbara Kolsun '82 is general counsel for Kate Spade, heading up the legal department for the $70 million New York-based handbag maker. Because Kate Spade bags are so often copied and then sold at home "purse parties," flea markets, and shopping mall kiosks, she devotes much of her time to anticounterfeiting work: calling police departments and firing off cease-and-desist letters to fraudulent retailers. Her efforts have earned her media attention recently, including a November 2002 The New York Times profile headlined "A Pit Bull Who Lunges at Brand Counterfeiters."

    "It's stealing," Kolsun says simply of counterfeiting. "Kate Spade is someone who started a business from nothing." She can cite dozens of other reasons why buying a fake Kate Spade bag is not a victimless crime--among them, that "a $20 counterfeit bag is made under conditions you wouldn't want to know about. Anyone who cares about the issues of child labor and sweatshops should not buy counterfeit."

    General counsel for a handbag maker. Your mother must be so proud. Yes, and I am sure a high-end handbag dealer like Kate Spade does not engage in exploiting cheap labor.

    From Crooklyn Class of 1981, executive vice president and chief administrative officer of Citigroup‘s Global Consumer Group, Stephanie Mudick:

    “Citigroup, which employs more than 1,000 lawyers, hires its share of Cardozo graduates, she says. But internships at Citigroup are relatively few because, as a business, it hires mostly experienced lawyers.”

    But yet the diploma mills insist on publishing figures for their recent grads who went into “business.” Apparently, large corporations prefer EXPERIENCED lawyers. How does a law degree help one in the business world again?!

    Some gems from Crooklyn Class of 1993 member David P. Samson, who went into business for himself, and then worked as an investment banker at Morgan Stanley before becoming president of the Florida Marlins - because this is the standard route for TT grads, right?!?!:

    "Opportunity will knock for everyone. You just have to recognize it when it comes along."

    "A law degree opens up every door to you," Samson says. New graduates should not despair, as he once did, about not getting the perfect first job. "I believe you can do anything during law school, during your summers and after. The most important thing is you have to outwork everyone else. Then outperform--by outperforming you will succeed."

    All we need to do is outwork and outperform everyone else?! Law grads are having a hell of a time landing that FIRST job!!

  36. Someone turn out the lights. It's over; it's all over. And the winner is....Indian attorneys!

  37. Thank you for linking that article Anonymous 8:26. You’re post comes off as genuine. However, try to be a little more critical of these online puff-pieces. Anytime you’re looking to gauge economics or employment your best bet is to look at the numbers—not some asshat’s spin on the situation. Here, the author titled his drivel ‘MBA Job Outlook Improving.’ After digesting the article, I’m convinced that the title was invented before the research was done. Just look at the numbers and ignore the dressing. For example:

    “At the same time, there are a number of signs that the MBA job market could improve, albeit slightly, in the coming months and a growing sense of optimism prevails among career services officers, says Kip Harrell, president of the MBA CSC. According to his group's survey, full-time MBA job postings appear to be rebounding; 34% of schools reported an increase in full-time postings this fall. And, perhaps even more important, fewer schools are reporting declines, with 48% of schools seeing a reduction in full-time postings, as compared with 70% of schools last year.”

    First off, the bozo who is reporting these numbers has an interest in reporting numbers in a positive light. Why? Money. Second, even the numbers that were reported are not good. Last year, the numbers for job postings were terrible. Now “48%” (just under half) of those schools report even WORSE numbers; whereas only “34%” have seen any increase. Presumably the other 18% of schools are the same as last year—shitty. So, without the bullshit spin, we see that things are as a whole WORSE than last year’s already abysmal situation.

    Read critically.

  38. "How could I forget Franklin Pierce Law Center? The school was named after a shitty-ass TTT president! BWAHAHAHAH!"

    Soon to be University of New Hampshrie Law. Where did you go? George Mason? Where the hell is that? People like you suck!

  39. Or maybe I should be asking WHO is that, i.e., George Mason! Take your 1st tier status and shove it up your ass.

  40. I think he invented the Mason Jar...

  41. It's a tragedy to know that even a third rate legal outsourcing outfit such as Pangea3 in India won't even recruit 'Bozo grads. Pangea3, however, will take a look at your resume if you are a T10 grad (i.e., Michigan).

  42. To the ignorant bitches saying that there are jobs and that the lawyer market is recovering:

  43. Cardozo is a joke. People think that they'll get good jobs because it's associated with Yeshiva University (cue Jewish lawyer jokes/comments). The reality is that it is a misery mill. Just ask its grads.

    Cardozo Class of 2013, you guys are idiots.

  44. I'm anonymous, and I'm sure I'll get blasted for this, but fuck it, it's logically consistent (as a disclaimer, I go to a T10). This idiot blogger went to Drake, a law school that even a Cardozo--nay, even a Syracuse law-- grad would wipe their ass with. Of course he's disillusioned with law school. The process ate him up and shit him out, just like it does any other intellectually unqualified ass. Law school made him a turd, not a lawyer. Worse, it slapped a debt on him the significance of which he was too stupid to comprehend when he signed for it. Moral of this story is don't go to law school if you're stupid; put more generally, don't make a 200k investment unless you can pay it back. If the system burns you, YOU'RE AN IDIOT. Not its fault, yours. Don't hate cuz you couldn't cut it. Inform others as to the risk, but don't hate. Sorry if your loan payments make your life hard and if you learned you were stupid at law school, but it was your choice to take 'em out and throw yourself into the grinder. Whole purpose of this blog is explained with two words, which I'm sure weren't taught at Drake: due diligence. Before you go, figure out what law school is and what 200k in debt means. Sheeeet, lawyers lie, and you're surprised law schools do too? Fuckin tonto. Guess Drake is that stupid of a fuckin school and its students are that stupid too.

  45. @ Dumbass above, i.e. August 16, 2010 9:13 pm - just in case you are too stupid to realize who I am referring to:

    I received a full-tuition scholarship to attend Third Tier Drake. My wife worked full-time, and we lived frugally. My student debt is nowhere near $200K, or even $100K. Got that, idiot?!?! Or do I need to draw a diagram with Crayola crayon, so that you can understand this?

    Also, learn how to break down your weak argument into paragraphs. Who knows? Maybe your law school didn't emphasize this. Or, more likely, you were simply too stupid for this to seep in. Also, learn how to use grammar.

    Furthermore, what distinguishes toilets such as Syracuse and Carbozo from Drake? All are over-priced, filthy sewers.

    Syracuse costs $43,500 in tuition for one year.

    Cardozo Clown College of Law charges $46,224 in tuition – for one year. Both are in the legendary over-saturated New York legal market.

    Third Tier Drake charges $31,980 in tuition for the same academic year. In sum, students at all three of these dumps are being crapped on.

    Now that I have flushed your ass down the commode - where it belongs - let’s see if you float back up like the “nugget” you are.

  46. lol..Cardozo is much better than "Drake"..I mean, how can you compare a near tier1 school with Drake which is tier 3 or 4?

    I am currently a 2L at Cardozo and I received summer offer two weeks ago. I also know plenty more in my class who received offers.

    You are right to point out that the legal market in general is really bad right now but this is true not only in Cardozo but in other law schools as well.

    My best friend is 3L at Harvard and he tells me that many of the graduates have yet to secure an employment.

    I do understand the concern with many empty headed students going to law school just to get the "JD" degree but as long as you know why you are going to law school and understand the costs, then who is to judge? In my opinion, it's a worthwhile investment.

    For me, I have a science background and I am doing patent law which may explain how I was able to secure a good 2L summer gig..but I know dozen more who are not doing IP at Cardozo who got summer offers. It really depends on what you do with your life not what school you go to...unless you go to some place like Drake which is prob a real waste of money.

  47. @ 9:01 pm,

    I had a full-tuition scholarship to attend Third Tier Drake. I only took out an additional $37K in student loans for my useless JD. My sister-in-law knows a Harvard Law grad, from the Class of 2009, who is still unemployed.

    I have a friend who graduated from UCLA Law, also in 2009. He went back to teaching grade school – after unsuccessfully looking for legal employment. I know a woman who graduated from UT-Austin's law school several years ago. Guess what she does for a living? She teaches voice and piano lessons. She also works part-time in a non-legal job.

    If you are that insecure about your law school, then you need to calm down. Carbozo is an overpriced piece of trash. It is also located in a pricey city. And, there are MUCH better law schools in the area. Will Biglaw consider NYU, Columbia, Harvard, Yale and Cornell JDs or those from Carbozo? Get the idea?

    Look no further than The Innocence Project at Cardozo Sewer of Law. They do not hire Bozo graduates. What does that tell you?!?!

  48. Fact of the matter is, those who go to Cardozo, are either 1) Capable of getting into NYU or Columbia, and making a bet on their ability to rise to the top at Cardozo in exchange for the student aid they get or 2) not able to get admitted into a top tier school and choosing Cardozo because they have to. I was the former, and saved over $90k over three years from not having to pay full tuition (which I would have at NYU or Columbia), and I finished in the top 5% and got a biglaw job - successful bet. Had I slacked and not received great grades, then shame on me.

    That being said, people going to Cardozo know why they are going to Cardozo, and don't need this article to inform them of how crappy the instituion is.

  49. lol..I am not insecure at all. I am just wondering how you can possible compare "Drake" with Cardozo. If you feel that bad about going to Drake..maybe you should have studied harder on your LSAT.


    US News lists the average student indebtedness for members of the Carbozo Class of 2009 who incurred law school debt at $105,067. Furthermore, 75 percent of this graduating class took out loans to attend this dump.

    Why? Apparently, so the administrators and "law professors" can take home handsome salaries and total compensation packages.

  51. Cardozo really doesn't deserve to be on this board. It produces damn good lawyers, not entitled pricks like NYU or Columbia. It is more like Fordham than Brooklyn. They get better professors every year, and better students. The USNEWS needs to start upgrading them seriously

  52. Cardozo is a good school...students get a good education there. Just like any grad school, the students that do well will get good jobs in a good economy. Currently, the economy is slow and it is difficult to get jobs unless you are at a top ten school. Not all of us are able to get into Harvard and if you can't get into Columbia or NYU in NY, Cardozo is as good or better than any other in NY.

  53. I am a 2004 Cardozo grad and I totally agree that Cardozo is trash. No one is saying students who go to Cardozo are trash. Cardozo attracts relatively bright students by giving them money (me) and then the money goes away if you don't maintain a certain GPA (me). So many of the people just in my section don't even practice law anymore. As for myself, I have had a tough time since graduation. In the NYC market (which is the only market you can be in with a Cardozo degree), a Cardozo degree is worthless. Try competing with NYU, Columbia, Cornell, etc grads. The law is elitist period. Students at even Columbia may have a tough time finding a job if they are average. So you can just imagine what happens to Cardozo grads. Even the profs at Cardozo do not respect Cardozo students. I had profs who were very rude and arrogant towards the students in their classes. That says everything. If you really just want a law degree and can't make it to a top 5, go with CUNY.

  54. I attended the school in the late 80s and the reports of "the same old" 20 years later are disturbing. From my experience back in the late 80s ...I was not impressed with the faculty whom I believe did not care so much for the students. The worst was the administration including the Dean (I spoke with him post grad and he couldn't care less about the situation all he said to me was "our grads get into the best firms...". Meanwhile all my buddies were either working for the DA, legal aid, joined small PI, LT offices, opened up their own office or had family law firms to join. Big firms? Oh yes, the top 10% law review folks many of them did go to mid sized but the "big firms" maybe the top 5% of the students. The placement office which was a total joke. The school just did not care beacuse parents kept pushing their kids to go to that school becauise they have great PR and the parents were convinced its a great school. The school had no incentive to do better like tap their adjuncts into hiring graduates or marketing the school to big firms for all students not merely concentrating on the law reviews. I had thought things would change but I recall having a contracts professor Katherine Stone and she is now in UCLA. Funny, on her CV on the UCLA site she doesnt mention her prior Cardozo affiliation. If you check prof CVs they usually all place their prior academic affiliations. The fact she does not says a lot.


    To the piece of trash - from Jackson, NJ - who tried to post several messages on this entry earlier today:

    Car-Bozo is a pathetic joke. By the way, have you noticed how often I refer to my law school as Third Tier Drake, bitch?!?! Right now, it is on the cusp of entering the second tier. It is still a toilet.

    From my analytics, ass-clown:

    Unique ID: 1746321224
    IP address:
    Locale: Jackson, NJ, USA / English
    Platform: Safari 5.1 / Mac OS X / 1280x800

    Visits by this user in the last 7 days

    Apr 30 2012 1:07pm 3 actions 1m 1s cardozo law good school?
    Apr 25 2012 11:39am 1 action 10s cardozo full ride or fordham law sticker

    Do some basic research BEFORE applying to these sewers, you dense pig. After all, this financial decision will impact you for the rest of your miserable life, dung beetle.

  56. I graduated in the middle of the class from this insult of a school in 2001.

    When I sought assistance from their career services office, I was told that they could only help those who essentially needed no help (i.e. Law Review, or the like). When I complained that this sounded like a scam and wrote a letter to the then-Dean, I was immediately called in for a face-to-face, the sole purpose of which was to discern whether I had devised a way to sue the school. When it became clear that I did not, I was palmed off on the career office again, the final upshot being that that office told me, in plain non-legalese, to go "&*%* myself." Really.

    For all this pleasure, after 3000 + resumes and an unpaid tab now well in excess of $100,000K, I was never able to secure a position as an attorney, although I passed the NY Bar.

  57. I graduated from Cardozo over 20 years ago and thought the legal education was fine. I liked that a lot of the profs were ex or current practitioners so you got a realistic sense of the law along with lots of clinical programs. Agree that the placement office is of little value. This was the reality in my era: the lower 90%, me included, have to fend for themselves. All of my classmates to my knowledge did get good jobs, however. I am a partner in a mid sized law firm and worked as a lawyer since graduating. It's a question of aggressively seeking work, I suspect, and sticking with it. It takes time and effort.

    Yes, the tuition is outragous and no longer value for money. Re this aspect, I fully concur with the bloggers' comments.

    It annoys me however to hear such terrible (and immature)comments about the place. Yes, it's not Harvard Law School but it provides a good legal education and the rest of it, really, is up to the graduates...


  58. Yes but by far the BEST clown college of law. Cardozo's Law Revue graduated one of the Tony award winning creators of Broadway's "Avenue Q". And somewhere there is actually pictures (and some video) of a real student Carnival held in the 3rd floor lounge with clown, ringleader, pie throwing, tarot reading, hot dogs, cotton candy...and good times.

  59. listen up everyone. Cardozo is a shitty law school. It's too expensive. And the NYC job market is shit for lawyers right now. It's been that way for years. Do not attend this flaming shit heap.

    Only employees of this "school" would encourage you to attend. And that's because they don't give a shit about students. And the profs make a nice living via the scam.

    Cardozo grad, LW'06

  60. I am a 2008 Dozo grad and agree with previous commentators. Don't waste your money at this place. I was lucky enough to land a big firm job thru OCI and have little debt thanks to scholarship money, but know plenty of alums who suffered miserably trying to find viable legal employment. The school is not worth it if you do not receive substantial financial aid.

    Most professors could care less about their students and seem to never offer assistance with job search issues. The career office was mediocre; some people had great experiences, if they worked with a good counselor, others were stuck with counselors who were just clocking in. (The folks my friends and I respected are no longer there, so I cannot comment on new personnel.) Many alumni wanted nothing to do with the school and responded very coldly when approached by students seeking to network. Lots of bitterness out there! Few friends were able to successfully network with older grads. Older Cardozo grads seem to feel that they had a tough time in their careers and since no one would help them, they would behave similarly today. It's really a shame since alums in mid sized and small firms can actually bring students in and these are the private sector places Dozo grads usually work in. (1Ls and those thinking about law school take note - big firm lawyers have their hands tied when it comes to helping law students get into their firms. These firms have gpa cut offs and usually do not look below the top ten/twelve percent, despite what your law school tells you.)

    Cardozo needs to treat its students better so that alumni will be more willing to open up their wallets and offices to the school. Stop scamming students. Pay your professors less and think more about the long term reputation of the school. Kids, avoid this institution unless you have a scholarship of at least 50 percent and did not get into NYU.

  61. What a tragedy! Quite discouraging reading your blog about Cardozo. I almost jump in. Well, now is 2014 and last semester my professor asked us in class who in his political science class were planning to attend law school (any law school for that matter). We only had one champ raise his hand. "Don't let that idea cross your mind, many law schools are bound to go bankrupt, and job prospects are very low".

    Not sure if that was good marketing for our school, but he opened his mouth anyway. The problem is not whether Cardozo is a good or a bad school, the bigger problem at hand is a competitive environment where jobs are scarce. I have been told that in early 90's there was such a boom in Wall Street that almost any idiot got hired. In fact I know this high school graduate that earns good pay at a large bank that recalls that he was one of the lucky ones without college that managed to end with a successful career in the banks. I am not advocating on behalf of Cardozo, but what I am saying that the corporate can afford to be extremely selective now. I know heavily indebted students that work in lower paying jobs. Is a tough environment.

  62. I agree SAT is better than wonderlic and both are standard platform to get good scores with huge effort SAT/ACT are the best college level tests. Which method is good for getting good grade in these tests with briefly thanks.

  63. I know just one person who graduated from this school. She had a partial scholarship and graduated most likely to succeed in criminal law (or something like that). She is actually a fantastic criminal lawyer and rated as a Super Lawyer. She didn't work for IP while in school and they couldn't afford her after graduation.


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