Thursday, August 5, 2010

Second Tier Sewage Plant: Syracuse University College of Law

Tuition: For the upcoming 2010-2011 school year, first year full-time students - at this prestigious, amazing, mesmerizing law school – will be charged $43,500 in tuition. They will also pay $1,626 in required fees.

Total Cost of Attendance: The Commode of Law estimates that books and supplies, housing, meals, transportation, personal allowance, medical insurance, and average loan fees will add another $18,574 to the annual tab. This would bring the total estimated COA – for the first year, at this school – to $63,700! And considering that law students will need food and housing for TWELVE MONTHS, the total COA will actually be $67,777.

Ranking: U.S. News & World Report rates this dump as the 86th greatest, most fantastic, brilliant and amazing law school in the United States. Of course, it shares this prestigious “honor” with six other schools, i.e. Hofstra, IU-Indianapolis, Northeastern, Seattle U. – they have a law school?!, Arkansas-Fayetteville, and Richmond.

So the school is over-priced, and the repuTTaTTion is not that great. What’s that you say, Lemming? YOU will make law review, rub shoulders with the movers and shakers of the legal community, get your name out there, and make some serious cash?!

Starting Salary Statistics: The Office of “Professional & Career Development” at $yracu$e Univer$iTTy Commode of Law purports to show the following employment breakdown – for its Class of 2009: 44% in private practice; 21 percent in business & industry; 14% in government; 10 percent in judicial clerkships; 8% in public interest; and 3 percent in other.

How many of those judicial clerkships are paid positions? How many are in traffic court? How many of those currently clerking for a judge will find gainful employment for next year? Regarding those in “business & industry”, how many of these JDs are working as night managers at Pizza Hut? What percentage of this graduating class is waiting tables at Applebees? How many are taking orders at the Rise and Shine Diner?

“For members of the Class of 2009, salaries ranged from $160,000 for large firm practice to $35,000 for public interest law employment. The average salary reported by those in private practice law firm positions was $94,500. The average salary reported by those in public sector government jobs was $53,500, while the average salary reported by those in private sector jobs was $92,500. The average starting salary for all employment types was $76,500.” [Emphasis mine]

Would you invest $180K – that you CANNOT walk away from - for a chance to make $53K a year? Would you do so, for an outside shot at earning $94K or a lottery chance of making $160K?!?!?

Employment Placement: Under this “Fast Facts” page, it shows that 94% of the Class of 2008 was employed within nine months of graduation. Then again, employment may include temporary research assistant, insurance salesman, and bouncer at Alpine Bar & Gentlemen’s Club.

Oh, well. Let’s see how well some of the faculty members of this fine in$TTiTTuTTion are doing.

Go to page 10 of the Syracuse University 2008 Form 990. You can see that Syracuse dean and “professor of law”, Hannah Arterian made $372,803 in TOTAL COMPENSATION – for 2007. She made $330,960 in salary, $39,343 in contributions to employee benefit plans & deferred compensation, and $2,500 in expense account and other allowances.

We can see that dweeb/“law professor” Peter Blacnk made $438,722 in TOTAL COMPENSATION for the same tax year. To be fair, he holds several “appointments” with the university. Who says higher education doesn’t pay off?!?!

Conclusion: In the final analysis, this school is an overpriced commode. A student could EASILY land $160K in the hole, by attending this second tier sewage plant. If you absolutely MUST be an attorney, and you cannot get into a top 6-8 school, go to the cheapest, local law school – where you can live with family, to cut back on living expenses.

If your family – or girlfriend – is stressing the importance of attending law school, remember that this is YOUR life. You will be the one stuck with the NON-DISCHARGEABLE student debt. If you cannot find decent-paying work upon graduation, this WILL affect your level of happiness. This can also be a divisive issue in your marriage – as money will be tight. Ask yourself the following: Do you want to take on $160K in debt for *a chance* to earn $45K-$50K?


  1. So what if the woman makes $370,000 and charges students $43,000? Wouldn't that mean she is only making a tiny fraction of the revenue streaming into this place. And she doesn't set the tuition prices. And, when you get a chance to do some actual fact checking, you willl see that Joseph Biden (the vice president of the country) is a Syracuse JD. But why mention that when you want to show that this school is a waste of space.

  2. Nando, go gettum! I love the Form 990 stuff. And the photo.

    5:59 a.m. Biden comes across as a f*cking moron who only takes his foot out of his mouth to put the other one in.

    1. Regardless of whether you like Biden or not or whether he is intelligent or not. In fact, he is the Vice President which is a very prestigious title.

    2. Biden is the second "in command" handpuppet. Cool! Big deal, dumbshit.

  3. @5:59AM

    Joe Biden is a fine example of why a TT/TTT/TTTT grad will never run the big show. Biden ran for the democratic nomination in '88 and had to withdraw as a result of plagiarism of ideas. Biden is well connected and is in the pocket of the credit card companies (mostly Delaware based-his main constituency) as he was a co-proponent of the harsh creditor-friendly changes to the Bankruptcy Code in 2005.

    Now back to Syracuse Law. The only benefit about attending Syracuse Law is that you have access to easy coeds on the undergrad campus. However, if you are a Syracuse law student, chances are you don't have game or rapport for women. Besides, $46K can buy you a harem of beautiful women on Copacabana beach in Brazil.

    As for job prospects for Syracuse law grads-- very limited. Selling insurance, working for Bloomberg's legal forms and being a shift manager for Payless shoes. Even the doc review hags in NYC shun Syracuse law grads. Moreover, Biglaw stays away from Syracuse, except for maybe the top 5 STUDENTS.

    If you are going to piss away $150K in loans to attend a TT, go west young man. Pepperdine is a better and preferable than Syracuse winters, which like your job prospects, can be a very frozen place.

    Final analysis: coming out of Syracuse law will not make you an Orangeman. It will make you a Redman, as in ink red on the net worth ledger.

    1. I graduated from SU Law seven years ago (average student at best) with $70K worth of debt (my parents helped financially and I worked part time).

      My first job paid 58K, my second job paid $91K, and my third job paid $110K. Now I'm interviewing for two jobs paying $135-$155K and $180K, respectively (hopefully I'll get one of them). All my jobs thus far were flexible and allowed me to work less than 40 hours per week.

      I'm a minority woman with no family connections.

      I don't know if going to SU Law was worth it for me (I don't recommend law school if you are not attending a top 10 school and you don't plan on graduating in the top 10% of your class), but I also don't know what else I would be doing professionally.

  4. "Wouldn't that mean she's only making a tiny fraction of the revenue streaming into this place."

    Commenter 1, meet point. It's way overpriced, so she can make a ton of money and still have it be a "tiny fraction."

  5. All the non-adjunct professors at Sewercuse are making over 100k. The dean is indeed only taking out a fraction of what is put in, but she is far from the only professor who is profiting handsomely from this scam. Once you tally up a full faculty with six-figure paychecks, add in a bunch of overcompensated "support staff" such as the career "services" office, and figure out if any of the exorbitant law school tuition is being skimmed into the university's general fund, it's pretty easy to figure out where that $46k per student goes.

  6. Joe Biden could be the greatest human being who ever lived. It'd still just be one person who graduated decades ago. Keep trying though.

  7. Joe Biden received an F (which was later removed from his record) at Syracuse law school for plagiarizing an assignment.

    "He went on to receive his Juris Doctor from Syracuse University College of Law in 1968,[17] where by his own description he found it to be "the biggest bore in the world" and pulled many all-nighters to get by.[13][18] During his first year there, he was accused of having plagiarized 5 of 15 pages of a law review article. Biden said it was inadvertent due to his not knowing the proper rules of citation, and he was permitted to retake the course after receiving a grade of F, which was subsequently dropped from his record.[18] He was admitted to the Delaware Bar in 1969.[17]"--Wikipedia entry on Joe Biden.

    What does this tell me? That Syracuse is an awfully boring place to live and that first year law students there are not properly taught the rules of legal citation. Indeed, Syracuse is a true TTT. $43.5K to attend this sewer? Try CUNY law school for a fraction of the cost.

    1. First, rules of citation should be learned in undergraduate. Second, law school sucks regardless of where you are attending. It is rigorous.


    I don’t want this thread to devolve into a discussion of ideology or political viewpoints. However, Biden withdrew from the 1988 presidential race, after accusations that he plagiarized a speech by then-British Labour Party leader Neil Kinnock. (As an added bonus, this story was broken by the “world-renowned” Des Moines Register.) Apparently, there was also some controversy as to whether Biden had used parts of speeches from Hubert Humphrey and Robert Kennedy – without crediting the source.

    The reality of the situation is this: Joseph Biden could be the greatest statesman of his generation, and it would not change the fact that he graduated from a law school that is not held in high regard – by the “academic community” or the legal world. Also, Biden graduated from Syracuse in 1968. How is that relevant to the school’s reputation today? Will recent Syracuse JDs be able to impress potential employers by pointing out that the vice president is a graduate of their school?!

    Along this vein, does it matter that Biden earned his undergrad degree from the University of Delaware? Does that somehow make the overall university more prestigious or sought after?!

    Then again, who knows how this affects the rankings of this school? For example, last year Syracuse University Commode of Law was ranked in the third tier of American law schools by US News. Now, they are ranked 86th by the same publication - in a seven-way tie, of course. After all, USN&WR definitely takes political considerations into account, when coming up with its rankings scheme.

  9. Someone's bitter about where their J.D. landed them. Post high school education costs money; if you didn't want to end up in debt, you should have considered a long term career as a McDonald's manager.

    As a Syracuse Law Student, I know from experience that most graduates end up at firms they love and enjoy, not some mediocre job. Does it take a little longer to find a job? Yes, but that's not the school's fault. I think it might be more prudent to assign the blame to the current state of the economy.

    You can knock the school all you want, but unless you went there, you really can't discuss the educational experiences of the students.

    The Joe Biden reference is a little absurd. Yes, he is the most famous Syracuse Law graduate. No, he is not representative of the students who go there now, or the administration that works there now.

  10. Sewercuse. That's funny. What is not so funny is the cost of attendance for this shithole. Seriously, who pays to go to school here? We're talking about $43,500 for a single year of tuition to attend a horrible law school. Biglaw wants nothing to do with these kids. but the poor schlubs will continue to pony up the money so they can brag about being a law student, anyway. I have to ask, are such people even smart enough to enter into a contract?

    1. How are you privy to what "big law" wants? Is you opinion representative of every law firm on the planet?

  11. nando, enjoy this one.

    SU Law School received $15 million donation from three people whose parents graduated from this pile of dog shit. Wow! And the money is going to construction of a new building for the law school. They estimate the total campaign will need to raise $85 million.

  12. Thanks, 11:28! I found this on a little while ago.

    “SU plans new law school, announces $15 million donation”

    “King, a federal appeals judge in Texas, said Tuesday her parents would be “blown away” at the prospect of having a building at their law school alma mater named after them. She said she and her two siblings broached the idea with SU officials as a means of fulfilling what they saw as a “moral responsibility” to SU for all it provided to their parents.”

    They did this out of “moral responsibility”, huh? Here’s an idea: donate that money for need-based scholarships, so that Syracuse JDs are not drowning in $180K in non-dischargeable debt!! Or failing that, use your influence to warn prospective students about the SERIOUS financial risk they are taking on, by choosing to attend law school.

    Plus, we don’t have exactly have a shortage of university buildings named after wealthy, old – and dead – people. When will we see a trend of schools naming buildings and “professorships” after people who lost their limbs and lives in foreign combat?

    These three siblings are corporate tools who are finally “giving something back to the community.” Well, at least this helps Syracuse Commode of Law on its way to its $85 million to $90 million goal.

    To the comments:

    Arthur posted this, at 8:25 am on July 21, 2010:

    "She said she and her two siblings broached the idea with SU officials as a means of fulfilling what they saw as a “moral responsibility” to SU for all it provided to their parents."

    Why? In my opinion SU has absolutely no morals.

    I think it would be moral if the donation would go to scholarships to students to defray the outrageous $45,000 yearly tuition at the law school.

    "For 2009-2010, Syracuse charged nearly $45,000 in tuition alone. Combine this with the roughly $12,000 required for room and board, $1,200 for book costs, and $4,000 for miscellaneous fees, and the total cost of attendance for one year at Syracuse is a daunting $62,200. A school of Syracuse’s rank could perhaps justify such a high cost if its students generally enjoyed great career prospects with high starting salaries; BUT, THAT IS NOT THE CASE. [Emphasis mine]

    Nearly 80% of Syracuse students do receive financial aid, however. Last year, grants ranged from $4,100 to $15,000 for the 25th to 75th percentiles, respectively. The median grant was $6,500. Regardless of the efforts of the Financial Aid Office, Syracuse graduates still average over $119,000 of debt upon graduation (USNews)."”

    Apparently, the Syracuse law student – “law student” is not capitalized, by the way – is too emotional to see that his school is an OVERPRICED DUMP. This large donation does not change this fact.

  13. Delusional comments – followed by TTR commentary:

    “minermess”, from 7:45 am on July 21, 2010:

    “what an incredibly nice thing to do! Not only will their parents memories be honored, but future generations of young people will also benefit from their wonderful gift! THANK YOU!!!!”

    Yes, because Central New York is in dire need of MORE lawyers, right?!?!

    “stealthranger”, at 9:38 am on July 21, 2010 – in response to a Syracuse JD who argued the school should be SHUT DOWN, not expanded:

    “I've seen you in 'action', dude you'd be a poor excuse lawyer even if you graduated from Yale or Harvard.”

    Yes, ad hominem attacks are the cornerstone of a solid argument.

    "Verbatimm", from 10:12 am on July 21st:

    “Same here. I just KNEW the curmudgeons would jump all over this story about an incredibly generous donation that will benefit the community -- yes, the ENTIRE community, not just S.U. -- and find all kinds of fault with it. Lame. Sad. But not at all surprising.”

    The school is crap; its graduates are not highly sought after; tuition is a king’s ransom; and this “gift” will NOT benefit the students – at least not in terms of student debt. (In fact, tuition will probably increase faster to help the school reach its goal.) People are simply pointing out the reality of the situation. And the industry apologist tools are out in full force. Such people don’t like the truth. It deflates their illusions. Lastly, HOW THE HELL DOES THIS BENEFIT THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY?!?!

    I cannot forget the “contributions” of "scottien" – this one from Page 2 of comments:

    “Arthur would it matter if I was employed by SU? That would have nothing to do with an opinion that people can do what they want with their money. Also these people made this generous donation and you call them idiots!! Nice and spare me the free speech I spent 20 years in the military so people like you could have the right to sound off like morons!!!”

    scottien, you ARE a moron who doesn't want to hear the truth. I suppose you earned that right.

  14. If you support this site and its message, visit and sign the Twitter Petition to support Ethan Haines' hunger strike in support of law school transparency and career counseling reform.

  15. What was the point of using those quotes, in the SU column? To 'show' that some SU Law grads are unhappy with their degree and can't hack it in the real world? Who cares what those losers have to say about the school. They obviously didn't work hard enough to find legal jobs. And you are quoting these bums? Ha.

  16. Don't forget Biden graduated with a C- GPA and almost got kicked out for plagiarism

  17. Glad to see the SU admin damage control team really kicked it into high gear for this post, but when your toilet bounces in and out of the third tier every few years, I guess that's what it takes to get people to fork over $40k a year in just tuition alone.

  18. Who the fuck cares what TTT law school Joe Biden went to? Shit, former VP Spiro Agnew went to the University of Baltimore School of Law and that fact doesn't make that commode smell any better.

    Syracuse College of Law is a festering toilet. I knew a kid who graduated from there that was certified mentally challenged. Getting into Syracuse College of Law is as easy as signing over the student loan check over to the school at the bursar's office.

    Lastly, no lawyer I know takes this school seriously. Syracuse's "rise" to the second tier is akin to that nugget of shit that just floats in the toilet refusing to go down when you flush.

  19. I took Con Law in the early 90s at Widener in DE with Biden teaching it on Saturdays and they made it out like we were blessed to learn from him. Total assclown and I think this means you should hit my toilet alma mater next. If there was a 5th tier, we would be in it. Bidens record in the late 60s wouldnt get him in to Widener today if that tells you how pathetic he is and how many idiots continue to go to law school.

  20. Anyone seen this - unemployed JD on a hunger strike to compel truth in law school placement reporting:

  21. Kids thinking about law school should understand that borrowing $100K may be easy but repaying it or trying to get out of paying for it is nearly impossible. Know this: for the 3 years you are in law school you can brag about your status as a law student to friends and family, however, upon graduation you will have 25-30 years of student loan payments for that "privilege." Think you have a hardship case for discharging your loans in bankruptcy? Read this:

  22. Nando - I'd like to meet up with you sometime (I think we live in the same city). To what email should I send you a line? Thanks.


    "With an acceptance rate of nearly 40%, it is of no surprise that Syracuse earned an admissions selectivity dating of 60/100 from the Princeton Review. Last year, the 25th to 75th percentile GPA range for admitted students was 3.13–3.51 and the range for the LSAT was 153-157. The medians for such measures were 3.32 and 155, respectively.

    While admissions standards may not lead among similarly ranked schools, tuition does. For 2009-2010, Syracuse charged nearly $45,000 in tuition alone. Combine this with the roughly $12,000 required for room and board, $1,200 for book costs, and $4,000 for miscellaneous fees, and the total cost of attendance for one year at Syracuse is a daunting $62,200. A school of Syracuse’s rank could perhaps justify such a high cost if its students generally enjoyed great career prospects with high starting salaries; but, that is not the case (see employment section below).

    Nearly 80% of Syracuse students do receive financial aid, however. Last year, grants ranged from $4,100 to $15,000 for the 25th to 75th percentiles, respectively. The median grant was $6,500. Regardless of the efforts of the Financial Aid Office, Syracuse graduates still average over $119,000 of debt upon graduation (USNews).”

    According to this TLS report, the median grant from this law school was $6,500. How the hell is a person of modest means supposed to graduate from this commode with less than $100K?!?! We have also seen comments - on the article I cited above – from Syracuse law graduates who feel that the school should be “SHUT DOWN, not expanded.”

    From commenter “Bryan”, which posted on July 21, 2010 at 9:34 am:

    “Having graduated from Syracuse Law, I say the place should be SHUT DOWN, not expanded! A Syracuse law degree is far too worthless to justify the tuition they charge. There are already way too many law schools in America, and too many lawyers. Shut down the bad law schools and balance things out.

    But no... Syracuse wants to expand. Rake in more tuition money and flood the world with more low-quality lawyers... splendid! As long as they make a profit in the process!”

    Now, according to the TLS article, Syracuse JDs, on average, graduate with an additional $119K of NON-DISCHARGEABLE student debt. Biglaw doesn’t want these grads. Yet, the school has the unmitigated gall to publish the following figures for starting salaries:

    “For members of the Class of 2009, salaries ranged from $160,000 for large firm practice to $35,000 for public interest law employment. The average salary reported by those in private practice law firm positions was $94,500. The average salary reported by those in public sector government jobs was $53,500, while the average salary reported by those in private sector jobs was $92,500. The average starting salary for all employment types was $76,500.”

    Of course, the schools do this so that the “professors” and administrators can continue to rake in serious money. Once again, THESE ACADEMICS DO NOT GIVE A DAMN WHAT HAPPENS TO THEIR GRADUATES UPON GRADUATION!! They are paid in full, up front. You, the student, are stuck with the bill – and interest – for the next 25-30 years of your existence.

    To above, my email is

  24. OK, you established that Syracuse College of Law is a worthless, moldy, disgusting, moist, decrepit piece of shit. Can we move on to the next toilet please?

  25. How about IU-Indy next?

  26. Attorney hiring appears to be on the rebound again.

  27. Too many people are acting as if a law degree is a "ticket" to success. No! A law degree only provides the very BASIC building blocks for a legal career. It is up to the individual to USE those skills and put them into motion. Basically, a law degree is where you begin - not where you finish.

  28. We NEED more law schools. Our population is growing by about 3,000,000 people a year. What the ABA is approving is barely able to keep up with public demand. Disputes will exist indefinitely and society will ALWAYS need a glut of lawyers to problem solve society's increasingly complex matters.

    Can't get "a job?" Go solo! Most solos fail because they are unable to handle the types of cases that bring in $. Therefore, as a lawyer, you need to TEACH yourself how to handle such matters. Avail yourself and learn the practice!

    Its no secret that in paying for law school, you are only paying for the sheepskin.

  29. I agree with Tyson at 2:22pm. You are now attorneys (or future attorneys), folks. Stop treating yourselves like helpless welfare recipients. Get off the blogs! Go beat the streets. Get ambitious. MAKE. IT. RAIN!!!

    Hang out at the courthouse. See if other attorneys have overflow work they can't handle. GET INVOLVED! Sometimes seemingly meaningless matters to handle blossom into great opportunities. There is no magic formula for everyone, but you have to be in the position to pounce when the opportunities arise.

    HOWEVER, one thing won't help you - whining and acting helpless!!!

  30. The last four comments indicate that the person is totally divorced/disconnected from reality, and does not have a clue about the job market. The comment at 2:47 pm may have been tongue-in-cheek. For the poster's sake, let's hope this is the case.

    Only a damn fool would encourage more recent law grads - MOST of whom cannot file a proper motion to produce - to go solo. Yes, that's the ticket!! After all, you can be your own boss and not need to share income with another attorney. (And clients will line up outside your door, when you open up shop. And, occasionally, Eve Mendes and Halle Berry will drop by for late night conversations, too.)

    Tyson, I am not "acting helpless" - I am on the offensive. And I will continue to publish "law professor" salaries, so that prospective law students can see where there borrowed money is going. It is only fair, considering that the students will be stuck with the debt - plus interest - for the next 25-30 years.

  31. So, when do we get to the part where are all you disgruntled law students admit you're gullible assholes? So full of entitlement and anger...


    Blue Collar Daughter... Not in Debt

  32. So...Blue Collar Daughter, when are you going to admit you blew the admin of your law school?


    Your Dad

  33. What a complete tool you are writting up all this garbage..syracuse Law > Drake cakes law any day of the week.

  34. ^Both schools are shit factories. And SU is about $10K more per year, and is in a state with about 15 law schools. Maybe u should read the quotes from SU attorneys that think the college of law should be shuttered.

  35. Actually, I didn't even go to law school like you pretentious, entitled assholes. I work for a living.

    Blue Collar Daughter, not in debt

  36. Is there really a huge difference between 86th-ranked toilet Syracuse, and Third Tier Drake? They are both over-priced, filthy commodes. In last year's ranking scheme, USN&WR had $yracu$e in the third tier.

    Blue Collar Daughter, by chance are you a Ph.D humanities student at Syracuse? A former co-worker recently started her Ph.D program. (I have also noticed many views from Syracuse, NY since she left this area.) Her father is an anesthesiologist in Southern Utah; he also happens to own the clinic. He has also shelled out tuition for her undergrad, and is now doing so for his daughter's Ph.D. Lastly, he even purchased a brand new car so she could go to school - among some other major expenses.

    If you are the person I am describing, you are decidedly NOT a blue-collar daughter - and you wouldn't know the meaning of the term. You are not in debt because your rich father has foot the bill for your living expenses and schooling. Now grow up, and gain some real-world experience.

    This person is also so ENTITLED that she said the following when complaining about her apartment to a friend, "I can't stand this place but I don't want to take out student loans." Maybe, you can have your daddy shell out some more cash - so you aren't inconvenienced with student debt.

  37. No, actually my daddy worked at GM assembling transaxles (and taught me it was stupid to amass too much college debt - what did YOUR dad teach you?)

    But thank you for playing.

    -Blue Collar Daughter

  38. To the insecure person above, who feels the need to identify herself as a "blue collar daughter":

    I went to law school on a full-tuition scholarship. Perhaps, if you learned how to read, you would have noticed that I have mentioned this before on this blog.

    What stake do YOU have in defending this diploma mill? The school wants to raise $90 million for a new law school building. Yet, its graduates are drowning in debt. Who knows? Maybe, there is no need to fund scholarships at this “in$TTiTTuTTion of higher learning.”

    Actually, according to US News & World Report, the average indebtedness of 2009 Syracuse graduates who incurred law school debt is $119,076. And 84% of this school’s graduating class took on NON-DISCHARGEABLE student debt.

    Do you see that, BCD - right in between fellow toilets California Western Sewer of Law and Golden Gate University?!?! In fact, Syracuse ranks 20th in terms of average indebtedness of JDs who incurred law school debt. Maybe, the school can publish this in their glossy view-books, web site and marketing materials, right?!

  39. I have been visiting various blogs for my term papers writing research. I have found your blog to be quite useful. Keep updating your blog with valuable information... Regards

  40. WOW. I am curious if every single one of you are mad at law school or yourselves for going to sub-par schools? I went to a top 30 law school and was given a full tuition waiver, i also had full scholarships for football for undergrad and academics for my masters--however I still owe 100K. i finished in the dead-middle of my graduating class 0f 180. . . .i got a job clerking, so i was very lucky. . . .but i am not freaked out about after my clerkship ends in AUG 2012--i will have paid back half of my loans---and I have plans.....many of friends still have not been hired anywhere in the last year. So do you know what they did?......its really clever.....THEY HUNG UP A SHINGLE AND WORK AS LAWYERS FOR THEMSELVES. they use the local law library for free, the do DUIs and DIPs and other lame crap, slip & falls etc......they dont lay around and whine like pussies...Hang a shingle, stop lookin to suck from someone elses established tit. be your own man/woman.
    if you are concerned about your debt like my chick was when she graduated from a law school ranked somewhere in the low 80s...she became a JAG Officer and now those loans will be forgivin after 10 years of service....Jesus people man up.
    Educate people about the realities of going to law school----yes its a huge amount of debt, but dont whine like a bunch of little school nancys....yes it is shitty reality if all you want to do is work for someone else, but honestly I went to law school so I would never have to punch another mans clock!!!!

  41. Hello idiot, i.e. 11:48 am. To wit:

    "I went to a top 30 law school and was given a full tuition waiver, i also had full scholarships for football for undergrad and academics for my masters--however I still owe 100K."

    Apparently, you needed two advanced degrees to make it. You also claim to have not paid tuition for undergrad, your Master's program or law school - and yet YOU still owe $100K!! Learn how to live within your means, son. There is NO reason why you should have such a high debt load, if your other claims are true.

    Your “logic” is so weak, it transcends the pathetic. You feel that everyone should open up their own practice. Where are these people going to get the start-up money from – especially when they owe $150K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE student debt?!?! Also, seeing that many attorneys do not have a business background/training, how are they supposed to manage a payroll?

    Do you think it is silly for people to desire a consistent paycheck, benefits, and work schedule? I am happy for your JAG girlfriend. However, dumbass, those positions are EXTREMELY COMPETETIVE now. Do you understand that, or do I need to explain the over-supply of lawyers to you with Crayola and posterboard – so that it registers in that cavernous space known as your brain?!

    Also, I don’t know how many JDs and attorneys are still punching a time clock. I get your point, however. The reality of the situation is this: in my area alone, there are 71 yellow pages devoted to attorney ads. You are being impractical; you have the mentality of a 5 year old kid who still believes in the tooth fairy, i.e. “If I just hang out my shingle, clients will come rolling in.”

    You need an advertising budget. You will also be competing against hundreds – if not thousands – of experienced local attorneys. You will be competing against established law firms in your area. These firms have the money to blow your ass clear out of the water.

    These firms are able to take the easy cases. They want the quick settlements, kid. In fact, they typically/constantly turn down those cases which will require long hours, plenty of research, and a dogfight. This is CERTAINLY the case for those clients who do not have a realistic shot at making the firm a big reward. True, these mills could probably win a settlement or trial on some/many of these difficult cases. However, they DO NOT WANT to run the risk of spending $240K – and many years of litigation - for a chance to win the firm a $250K cut of the payout. That is the nature of business.

    This means that the recent attorney is left to take on the difficult cases. Does he have a budget of $100K to give his client a decent shot at a favorable settlement? Expert witnesses, depositions, research, plus tracking down clients and witnesses cost serious money. If you are suggesting that a contingency fee lawyer engage in these types of cases, you are delusional. If you want a new attorney to survive on DUIs and court-appointed dreck, then YOU are the one who needs to "man up" – and stop thinking like a little child.

  42. Syracuse is the most expensive law school in the country when it is looked at in a FEDERAL COLA neutral analysis. Or for layman it is the most expensive school related to the town it is in. The school charges as much or more than brooklyn yet is in a town where land is worth about 20% of brooklyn.
    Syracuse is so expensive because the dean is on the board of directors of the loan company they steer the students to. So of course you can raise tuition when you know your lenders will keep making the loans. If this isnt a conflict of interest or at least horrible judgment i dont know what is.

    Here is the link for when the "dean" tries to ask you to take my comment off this page.

  43. There are various methods used to clean and fix sewers but they often need proper sewer cleaning tools. or better yet hire a good cleaner.

  44. The most important step is to clear sewers using sewer cleaning equipment such as pumps, augers, rodding tools, water jetting tools, and camera which is more difficult than just unclogging the sinks and bathtubs or emptying the toilets.

  45. I'm a Canadian student who may not find a seat at the Canadian law schools I applied to for Sept 2012. I decided to apply to a few u.s law schools--the ones that are more realistic. I applied to: university of Buffalo, Syracuse, Pitt. law, and U of Wisc. (which i'm still under review) for Sept 2012. Canadian law school is a lot cheaper for me and it is my first choice. However, I was thinking about attending a U.S school for 1 year and re-apply as a transfer student and complete my JD in Canada.
    I did consider working in the u.s-- but i know getting a job will be harder as I will also have to be sponsored.

    After reading about my choices here I don't feel so well. I'm thinking I should complete my 1 year master's and hit the job market instead. I too hoped to get in and work my ass off for high 1L grades to help secure a great paying legal job.

  46. For what it's worth...

    I happen to be an alumni of SU Law. I graduated more than twenty years ago. Over those years I've had jobs as a law clerk to a Judge, associate level positions at both small and fairly large law firms, and in-house positions where I rose through the ranks to my current position as a General Counsel. I was not even close to being at the top of my class at Syracuse. However, what I did bring with me to that school was a desire to study and then practice law. I didn't know where it was going to lead me but I knew it was what I wanted to do with my life. I stayed with it. I can honestly say that the professors that I had at Syracuse were, with very few exceptions, outstanding educators. I studied - but not as hard as I could or should have. Was I offered positions by top law firms upon graduation - nope! Were their a number of students in my class that were - absolutely. Did I give up or curse SU because of that - absolutely not! Even at that point I was sensible enough to realize that my professional development was going to be up to me. I left the law school with good fundamentals in basic areas of the law. More importantly, my Syrcause experience was responsible for teaching me how to think like a lawyer. And I had a clue that the more effort I put into my future work the better lawyer I would become.

    I think this approach to the practice of law will transform anyone who embraces it. When I reached the point in my career where I was in a position to be the interviewer rather than the interviewee I recognized that there was limited correlation between the candidate's law school & gpa and the probability of them becoming a good lawyer. Clearly, it's a consideration - but so are other things that detractors of SU don't want to acknowledge. I think it's a fair statement to make that a 'top-tier' law school diploma will get you into many doors that other schools won't. But will it guarantee that you're going to be a superior practioner in the years that follow. I've hired hardworking attorneys from schools with rankings weaker than Syracuse. And I've seen Harvard and NYU grads passed over for hiring. How can this be? Because as an employer what I am looking for is a hardworking individual who is sharp, personable, conscientious, respectful of clients and has a sufficient grip on their ego to recognize that they can always learn something new and valuable from anyone.

    Just like lousy lawyers, good lawyers come in all shapes & sizes. Right now I'm seeking to hire a summer intern to work in my department for this coming summer. Will I consider SU students - absolutely. And I'll consider students from the Ivy League as well. But for all of those who have posted negative thoughts on this blog slamming Syracuse, I offer up that you might want to go through a little more self-evaluation on why you believe the school has failed you.

    1. Thank you for your candid thoughts. I do agree that a great work ethic coupled with the determined goal of being a great lawyer is integral to success. My goal is to become a great lawyer regardless of the school and particular job. Also, I am happy SU has served you well.
      However, there is a saturated legal market in NY- more bar passers than job openings. This highly competitive job market is coupled with hard economic times--which if 2012 entry is your aim--we hope will be a lot better by 2015 after graduation but who knows(this supply and demand discrepancy has been the case for some years now).

      Furthermore, the financial burden of SU's really high tuition cannot be remedied through self-evaluation.
      Self-evaluation is necessary. However, it should be coupled with a realistic cost benefit analysis of this large investment. For many students, including myself, tuition is real challenge-especially at $44K/year. Students like myself need to have some material promise of success (i.e. a decent job) to repay these loans-as bankruptcy does not get rid of student loans.
      The myth about hard work always being recognized in some way is showing its illusory nature with all the college grads out of work. Even with all the hard work, the challenges new and current law students face today is worthy of thinking over and reconsidering this path.

  47. As someone who dropped out of this dump, I can tell you that the current state of the "school" is pretty terrible. I went to a large public university for undergrad, where i could see the vast improvements coming from tuition dollars. SUCOL is the complete opposite. On the inside, the school looks like a crappy high school. Much of the facilities are out of date. They have about 15 old PCs in the library, which are terribly slow.

    Aside from the dilapidated feel of the entire school, the vast majority of my classmates came from small SUNY schools, random southern schools, or off-brand UC schools (Santa Barbara-party school, LBC, Irvine, Santa Cruz). Each of these 1Ls came to SUCOL with the same idea in their heads of becoming the next lawyer at BIGLAW. They were spending tens of thousands of dollars for that small hope of becoming the top 5 in the class. The new law building will also contain "law school dorms" costing 1200+ a month. For Syracuse, 1200 per month is just outrageous. At most, a place in Syracuse should cost 500 in rent.

    Like all law schools, the professors are really hit and miss. Unlike my undergrad university (one of the top public schools in the US), none of these SUCOL professors even sparked my interest in their classes. I found that the school has 3 types of professors: 1) Old male professors that are just showing up for a pay check and nothing else, 2) young professors coming from top 15 schools that attempt to wow students with their credentials (one professor would always talk about her days at Harvard and her actor husband), and 3) worst of all--the completely disenchanted former lawyers with chips on their shoulders that fell into teaching because they couldn't make it in the legal world. This third group of "professors" were the biggest joke. They would have 4-6 years of experience. Anyone with half a brain can see that even the smartest lawyer cannot master any particular area of law in that short of time.

    SUCOL also "prides" itself on its Law in London program which sends 1Ls to London to work with barristers and solicitors. So just tack on another 10K in tuition for that little gem that will not add to anyone's resumes.

    Overall, those students returning for their 2L year are already brainwashed into believing that SUCOL is the greatest place on earth with the best professors, best opportunities, and best law students. If you decide to go to this dump, i HIGHLY recommend that you get another degree from SU to fall back on. The school's tuition is only going up. Expect within the next few years that it will reach 50K easily. Best of luck to my former moron classmates. You will love your debt and useless JD from this true TTT

  48. 2012 grad from syracuse law here. beginning 2-yr federal clerkship next month in a competitive market. read it and weep.

  49. anon from June 25,

    If you're who I think you are: no one liked you and we were all thrilled to hear you weren't coming back

  50. To the piece of trash who posted at 6:16 and 6:35 pm,

    Your writing "skills" are beyond pathetic. If you are beginning a two year federal clerkship, then make sure to thank your mother for blowing the judge on your behalf, bitch.

    Since you supposedly received your law degree from Syracuse "University," she likely had to sleep with the pig daily for the last ten years. Hopefully, he took her out a few times. Buy your whore mother some flowers and a giant case of breath mints, cockroach.

    IP Lookup Details:
    IP Information -
    Host name:
    Country: United States
    Country Code: US
    Region: CA
    City: San Diego
    Latitude: 32.7368
    Longitude: -117.2402

    This dung beetle allegedly attended law school in central New York State, and he is now living in San Diego. You KNOW that his mother’s skills far exceed those of her son. Perhaps, this ass-clown also went down on the judge - in order to secure his job.

    From my analytics:

    Visits: 4

    Unique ID: 2683021759
    IP address:
    Locale: San Diego, CA, USA/English
    Platform: Firefox 14.0/Mac OS X/1280x800

    Aug 18 2012 7pm 2 actions 19s
    Aug 18 2012 6:32pm 1 action 10s
    Aug 18 2012 6:16pm 3 actions 1m 39s
    Aug 18 2012 5:42pm 2 actions 2m [secure search]

    Visitor path, this visit
    Aug 18 2012
    6:32:28 pm/2010/08/second-tier-sewage-plant-syracuse.html
    THIRD TIER REALITY: Second Tier Sewage Plant: Syracuse University College of Law

    Get a life, douche-bag. You went to a trifling, middling toilet and now you are across the country. We know how you got there - especially upon seeing your lack of written communication skills. At least your oral abilities have served you well. In light of that, don’t brag about your new job. Some things, such as integrity, are FAR MORE IMPORTANT than being a judicial paper pusher.

  51. Wow. As I said in my original post, I start working next month (for a judge in the northeast). I'm visiting family in socal for a few weeks until then. Why all the hate? How much time have you wasted on this site?

  52. Have fun getting on your knees for the judge, gooch-muncher.

    Visits: 7

    Unique ID: 2683021759
    IP address:
    Locale: San Diego, CA, USA/English
    Platform: Firefox 14.0/Mac OS X/1280x800

    Aug 19 2012 3:02pm 5 actions 8m 1s
    Aug 19 2012 2:36pm 2 actions 7m 53s
    Aug 19 2012 2:05pm 2 actions 2m 4s
    Aug 18 2012 7pm 2 actions 19s
    Aug 18 2012 6:32pm 1 action 10s
    Aug 18 2012 6:16pm 3 actions 1m 39s
    Aug 18 2012 5:42pm 2 actions 2m [secure search]

  53. I graduated from this school in 1989 when it was ranked around 50th in the country and was respected. There were many professors who were good and the legal writing program in my first year was excellent Ever since they brought Arterian in the school has floundered. It can never be a competitive program if it continues to fail to attract a student body that is more national in scope. I really think Arterian has ruined the school's reputation. The first step in improving the school's ranking is to replace her with someone more competent.

  54. Wow! I'm just a parent here whose son has been offered a full tuition scholarship and he's seriously considering going to Syracuse 'cause he wants to get into counter-terrorism and I thought they had a great program for that (while he gets his jd). He also has some great offers from other, more highly ranked schools, but they don't offer the counter-terrorism education. What do you suggest I advise him on? Thanks for any and all insights.

    A completely confused (and a little scared) parent

    1. I transferred out of Syracuse after one year to a Top 14 school. Do not let your son attend Syracuse. Even with the joint degree with Maxwell, it isn't worth it. People do not get good jobs (and some don't get a job at all) from this school. It is vastly overpriced. All they care about is collecting their $180k ($60k x 3 [since they are pushing law students to live in Campus West, the overpriced dorm that the school has a partnership with, I'm including cost of living here]) from you and then they do not care what happens to you afterward. The professors I had were nice people, but some were completely incompetent. The ones who were competent all but asked me if they could write letters of recommendation to transfer out since they knew I had the grades to do so. In this economy, your son would be vastly better off taking a year off, studying hard for the LSAT, and shooting for a score over 170 to open the doors to the T14 schools.

  55. I am a 2014 graduate of Syracuse College of Law. While the school is certainly not the best and the Career Services leave much to be desired, I don't share your outlook that it's a complete waste of your life. I had a 3/4 tuition scholarship and graduated with less than $100k total debt between law school and undergrad. Some of the professors were certainly not so great, but others were world class and honestly made my time in their classes well worth it with their passion and dedication. I took classes with a man who literally wrote the textbook for a field he helped to develop (Technology Commercialization), who just so happened also to be a wonderful, extremely helpful and dedicated person. Out of my close group of friends, one has a job with a large firm, one is working at a DAs office and two had clerkships by graduation. I myself have a job with the university doing appellate writing for as long as I need to find a job but I will note that I applied for a sum total of 2 jobs in my 3L year, so the fact that I don't have an after-graduation law job is hardly attributable to the school, but rather my busy schedule. Am I saying that Syracuse is better than going to a top ranked law school? Of course not. But there's pros and cons to everything and misleading people into believing they'll never get a job if they go here is just plain false.

    Also, as someone who is in fact an employee in the institute where Peter Blanck devotes much of his time, the man works on so many different projects that help not only the university and Syracuse, but places around the country and abroad, that it doesn't surprise me at all how much he makes, because he does the work to deserve it. Dean Arterian is a different story, but I won't get into that.

    1. You don't have a job and have been rehired by SU as an employed recent grad to boost their employment statistics. And why didn't you care about finding a job during your 3L year?


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