Thursday, August 19, 2010

Wipe Thoroughly: Widener University School of Law

Tuition: We can see that tuition for the 2010-2011 academic year comes out to $1160 per credit hour. Seeing that a full-time student will need 15 hours a semester, this comes out to roughly $17,400 per semester - or $34,800 per school year! And there is that pesky Bar Association Fee of $45 per semester. I am sure these students get their money’s worth.

Total Cost of Attendance: The school estimates that a student living in an off-campus apartment will accumulate an additional $17,504 in living expenses. This would take the total COA to $52,394 for the 2010-2011 school year.

However, I detect a sleight of hand by the law school. You see, the school comes up with the figure of $10,200 for room and board. It reaches this figure by the following monthly expenses: rent, $540; utilities, in the amount of $200; and $400 for board. Multiplying $1140 by a factor of 9 brings us to the amount of $10,260. (The idiots apparently think that $1140 * 9 = $10,200. Invest in a calculator; if you do so, you may move up to the third tier.) Multiplying this monthly figure by a factor of 12, gives us a yearly figure of $13,680. After all, law students require food and shelter for twelve months out of the year, not for only nine months annually. By the way, thanks for NOT mentioning/disclosing that these costs are for nine months, you shining beacons of integrity!!

Also, see how the school comes up with the total for “personal expenses”? The school also multiplies these expenses by a factor of nine. In actuality, personal expenses will amount to $4,032, not $3,024. Furthermore, yearly transportation costs will really be $3,120 - and not $2,340. Taking these corrections into account, the true total COA - for a full-time Widener law student- will be $57,662, i.e. $34,890 + $22,772.

Ranking: Surely, this school’s reputation will justify the high cost of attendance, right?!?! What’s that you say? Widener Sewer of Law is ranked in the filthy, decrepit fourth tier of American law schools - according to US News & World Report?!?!

Alleged Employment Statistics: Widener claims/asserts that 95% of its Class of 2009 was employed or seeking another graduate degree within 9 months of graduation. Of course, fully 25 percent of these JDs are employed as judicial clerks. (How many of these positions are in traffic court?) Still, this is an incredible number - especially coming from a fourth tier piece of trash such as Widener Univer$iTTTTy Sewer of Law. After all, NALP claims that only 88.3% of the overall JD Class of 2009 was employed, which also takes the illustrious top three tier law schools into account. $omehow, Widener is able to best this figure by nearly 7 percent.

“Fast Facts”: Total first year enrollment of 383 at the Delaware campus, and 181 at the Harrisburg branch. TOTAL JD ENROLLMENT of 1,438 students - as of Fall 2008. Of this figure, 468 are in the “prestigious” evening division!! This means that fully 32.5% of Widener law students are in the evening program.

Total Compensation for Administrators: Looking at page ten of Widener University’s 2008 IRS Form 990, we can see that Dean Linda L. Ammons made $288,419 for 2007. She made $237,382 in compensation and $51,037 in “contributions to employee benefit plans & deferred compensation” that year. We can also see that John L. Gedid, “assistant vice dean” of the sewer of law made $229,661 for the same tax year. All for helping to provide a fourth tier “legal education”! Yes, “higher education” truly does pay off!

Widener’s “Vision”:

“Widener University School of Law aspires to be a synergy of diverse and highly qualified students interacting with dedicated scholars, teachers, and practitioners in a vibrant, student-centered environment. Through specialized institutes and innovative teaching methods that connect theory, doctrine, and practical skills, Widener Law strives to produce outstanding and reflective lawyers. In law practice, scholarship, and civic engagement, the Widener Law community will advance the state of the art in law, justice, and ethical professionalism in the regional, national, and global communities it serves.”

Yes, charging your students $34,800 for one year of a TTTT education - and providing weak-ass job prospects - is the hallmark of ethical professionalism, isn’t it?!?!

Conclusion: This school is an over-priced commode/diploma mill. This is evidenced by the fact that the school has two campuses, with a total JD enrollment of over 1,400 students. What a fourth tier powerhouse, huh? DO NOT ATTEND this school, under any circumstances. One could easily graduate from this toilet with $150K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt - with abysmal job prospects. Would you take out six-figure debt for a chance to make $35K-$40K annually?!



    CDO flunky: Good morning!
    Graduate: Need job. Do you have a fax machine I can use? :-(
    ****** No Carrier ********

  2. fax machines are cool. They speed up the accreiditation process.

  3. There is one thing that is left unsaid Nando. Just as the legal "profession" has lockstep 6 figure salary for the cream of the crop inexperienced newbie associates and deferreds, the law school cartel, from top to bottom, have and will continue to have lockstep tuition increases.

    How the hell does a law school dean pull in that much? What do they do besides give elite national and big name local firms blumpkins in exchange for donations?

    OT, in that vein, my Chicago TTTTTTT school is mulling a 10% tuition increase for next year according to some street rumor.

    In that vein and OT, I heard a rumor floating around that my Chicago TTTTTTT is prepping for a near 10% tuition increase next year.

  4. I really don't know what would possess someone to attend Widener Law. If this is your only option for law school, re-take the lsat or you are really not cut out to be a lawyer. In my legal circle, Widener Law is considered the Thomas Cooley of the East. There is a saying in Delaware: if you want to get sodomized with compassion, go to Reheboth Beach but if you want to get fucked over without mercy, head over to Widener Law.

    1. LOVE this. Couldn't be anymore true. Their administration actually has the audacity to treat their law students like dogs- and I'm not talking about the actual schoolwork itself. My good friend graduated 3rd from this hole, passed the state bar with flying colors and it took him 2 years to actually find a full-time job (which is NOT in the legal profession). Save your money, if you want to be an attorney- try getting your foot in the door at a reputable firm and get some decent recommendations to pad your application or retake the LSATS but DO NOT go here!

  5. Here I am again to defend schools like these. I went to third tier SCU, where about 1/3 of the students are evening students (I think). Going to school at night does a few things for you: First, you're probably working during the day. That takes away the cost of living, since, well, you were paying to live anyway. As a result, your student loans are minimized. Mine are federal only, I consolidated and my monthly payment is about $350, or $4200 a year. Second, you're not losing "opportunity cost" associated with being out of the workforce for 3 years. If law doesn't work out for you, you don't have a 3 year gap in your resume you have to explain and you can leave the JD off your resume so as not to scare away non legal employers. Third, you're probably gaining experience in a field you're going to go into. I was an engineer in the semiconductor field, then I switched over to writing patents. All relevant experience. My point is, going to school at night may not be prestigious, but it's definitely practical.

    Now, all this being said, I had classmates in the evening section that were there because they were waitlisted in the day section, and instead of using that time to study their assess off (you've got 2 less classes morons!) they goofed off and now one of them has $210K in loans and is unemployed.

    Back to the $4200/ year loan payment. The operative question has to be: do I make more than $4200/ year more than I would as an engineer? Holy shit yes! you're not going to crack 6 figures as an engineer until year 7 or 8. I was in year 5 and I was at 85K, and that's with a masters degree. I won't divulge my salary, but I can tell you it's more than 89.2K.

    So *that* should be the calculus... am I going to make more per month than my student loan payment after this? And if you relied on the school's own employment statistics, well then I have some mortgage backed securities I'd like to sell you.

    Oh and thanks for bringing back the toilet pictures. Nice and gross.

  6. Evrenseven, I know people who goofed off and had low grades at my school and have jobs. I also know people who "did everything right" and are now working as paralegals. It depends upon who you are lucky enough to cross paths with and what they are looking for in an employee.

  7. I heard they also have a harsh curve at Widener.

  8. They do. At least at the harrisburg campus, one third of the entering 1L class is forced to flunk out. They warn you after the first semester and everything if your grades are low.

  9. This school is a subterranean shithole. The pic does not go far enough in describing this TTTT toilet.

  10. This poor bastard is in desperate need of advice -

  11. As a graduate from the class of 1995, bottom 5%, Delaware Campus, the only thing I have to say is that if not for the Cactus and their Addams Family Pinball machine, I might have realized my mistake and quit early. I was lucky not to fail out as NHLPA 93 and NHL94 on Sega are two of the best video games ever made.

    Its a shit school, but I graduated(barely), passed the bar, and have made pretty good money practicing for 15 years. That being said, with all the info out there, you have to be crazy to go there today. Dean Ammons is running one of the best scams known to man.

    Thanks for profiling my alma mater. You went rather easy on them but its a prime example of a school that unless you are connected or are just looking to get a license to go out on your own, then dont bother. Isnt that the case with most schools?

    1. I also graduated from Widener Law '95 Delaware. Top 50% (barely). I never practiced law but have had a very well-paying career in the corporate world/technology sector as a contract negotiator. Logged a lot of time at the Cactus. Had a blast in law school, fun way to spend my early 20s. My folks paid for most of law school though, and it was a lot less expensive than now. So if it were now, I would probably re-consider going to Widener



    “The Benefits of Two Campuses

    Widener Law’s two great campuses—one in Wilmington, Delaware, the nation’s “corporate capital,” the other in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania’s state capital—are guided by one mission and committed to providing a challenging, practice-based legal education. Each offers opportunities unique to its location.”

    [Read: “This allows us to make money hand over fist, by pumping out MORE JDs into this already-oversaturated industry. We get paid up front in full, and so we don’t concern ourselves with your perpetual state of underemployment. After all, we are providing our students with a legal education, not the ability to practice law - let alone, the opportunity to practice. The fact that we publish a 95 percent job placement rate should IN NO WAY be construed as guaranteeing employment upon graduation. In fact, these numbers should not be considered that accurate. We simply provide this info for our own personal amusement.

    Right now, we are also considering a third location in the back of a mobile taco stand in York, PA. However, the ABA is so stringent in its accrediting guidelines, we must first have a wireless connection and a fax machine. At least, the ABA does not require us to obtain a Food Handler‘s Permit, as this process can be very strenuous.”]

    I love the disclaimer at the top that reads “This article is written like an advertisement.”

    “Grading Curve

    Widener's grading policy is self-described as rigorous.[10] Unlike most law schools, Widener's policy allows the average grade for first-year courses to be set as low as 2.3, which equates to a "C+." The average grade for upper level courses purports to be only slightly more lenient.[10] This low grading curve has been the source of controversy for some students. According to a 2007 student survey conducted by the Princeton Review and sanctioned by the school, "Widener's C grading curve is also a source of frustration. Students worry that their curved grade point averages might not stack up to their competitors, 'causing us to lose out on job opportunities.'" In the same survey, students insist that the current grading policy requires some much needed reform.[11]”

    Are non-legal employers aware that other law schools have higher grades? If not, then you can bet that this WILL affect Widener JDs’ chances at finding work in another field. Why hire some law grad with a 2.9 GPA when you can hire someone at a better law school - at least in terms of name brand - who graduated with a 3.1 GPA?

  14. Nando -
    Not sure how to contact you, but you may find this information helpful in your reviews:

  15. @5:58,

    Thank you. That is a solid resource - even when one considers that these figures are more than likely conservative.

    According to your link, US News lists the following info for Widener Sewer of Law:

    Average indebtedness of 2009 graduates who incurred law school debt: $100,849

    Percent of grads with debt: 92%

    That is a hell of a price to pay for a TTTT degree. This is disgusting, and CLEARLY shows that the schools are ONLY concerned with maintaining those federal funds. They will do whatever they can to attract more students to their particular diploma mill.

    Again, thank you for the link. My email address is - if you are interested in contacting me.

    "My first question is which would be the better choice (Duquesne or Widener)?"

    Here is someone who DESPERATELY needs this info. The thread was started on 6-22-10. Perhaps, someone here can provide this prospective law student with the debt figures from USN&WR.

  16. the widener rocketAugust 20, 2010 at 10:32 AM

    WHat? I don't have any facts or evidence to back up waht I am going to say, but here goes anyway.

    Widener is a good school. And there are job opportunities for Widener lawyers. ONly, pretentious a-holes care about the 'brand name' of a law school, anyway. Who wants to work foe such people, to begin with? You didn't mention that in your analysus.
    Tuition is high, but you have to pay to play. That is just the situation we find ourselves in. WHy do law schools feel the need to keep raising costs? Geeh, I dunno. It might have something to do with increased costs of clinics and adding faculty. And, why mention the total cost of att.? You cannot avoud living costs, can you?

    Widener is a solid law school, despite what this blog says about it. And none of the facts quoted in this article will change that.

    1. The professors are fairly high quality and not the main problem. If it is the "cost" of adding faculty then why is there still no solid international law program at the Harrisburg campus? Oh because the money goes to administrative raises. Btw, most employers of competitive firms (esp. corporate law firms) DO care what school you graduated from- don't be so hopelessly naive. Now lets compare the job prospects of Temple Law students (a school ranked higher with lower tuition) to Widener Law students. No one is saying there are NO JOBS, but rather the QUALITY of those jobs is severely limited.

  17. Your post seems for defamatory than fact based. Widener is no more expensive than any of the other TTTs. Honestly, Seton Hall and Brooklyn Law are way worse than Widener. Tutions at both are nearly $15k more...never mind the living expenses in the NYC area. I know many Widener grads making mid-six figure salaries and they are honestly smart, hardworking people. Any TTT education is what you make of it. Going to some crap undergrad is the same thing. It's what you make of it.

    1. How many Widener law students do you know of that even had the option of transferring to Columbia Law? I don't know any but I do know of two Brooklyn law students that had the opportunity to transfer to Columbia law and did. Different states, different law= apples and oranges.

  18. Widener grad here. I am very happy with my career. I make a lot of money and like what I do. That said, I'm not sure I would borrow $150k to go to Widener.

  19. Widener is an overpriced piece of shit floating in the fourth tier. 'nuff said.

    "Widener is no more expensive than any of the other TTTs."

    I mean, tuition is 35000 at this shithole. Well, everyone else is charging a bazillion dollars a year, why not us? Get honest for a minute. What justifies that cost? Are Widener grads in high demand by local law firms? How many can pay back their loans without moving in w their parents, and eating ramen 3x a day?

  20. I went to a school ranked higher (lower tier 1) than the cesspool known as Widener Law School. When I realized I had been hoodwinked into borrowing over 6 figures in non-dischargeable student loans without any good legal job prospects (unless you count $12/hr craigslist gigs), I said "fuck it" and moved to Costa Rica where I now teach English and enjoy a nice lifestyle as an ex-pat. Fuck Sallie Mae and fuck the law school cartel. Nando, you can verify by my IP address that I am in cozy Costa Rica enjoying pura vida. Sallie Mae can charge a million dollars in interest on my loans. I don't care because I am not coming back to the U.S. and Sallie Mae's jurisdiction will never touch me.

  21. Nando,

    I just found this site, and I want to say mega-kudos. I'm a 2L currently at a TT school that I only ran to because (a) my old job sucked even worse than being a lawyer and (b) the TT school offered me free tuition.

    Had I known what an unmitigated scam this whole field was, I would have turned down the full-tuition deal and resorted to being a hot-dog vendor or a pool hall operator. Now I'm stuck in school for another 2 years AND I have to put up with my family asking why I'm not working as a lawyer when there's just no market for it. At least I have two years to find some other way to make money (I'm seriously thinking about taking night business classes on top of my law classes and just coasting on the law part).

    What a scam field. I hope the ABA rots in hell for screwing its own profession. Keep up the good work, Nando.

  22. To 5:51,

    I am glad you stumbled upon this site, and I hope you continue to follow. I absolutely love beating the living hell out of these over-priced "institutions of higher learning." Since the law schools do not want to publish accurate employment and starting salary figures, I need to expose their tactics on this forum.

  23. I'm graduating this year and have three separate six-figure offers in a down economy.

    Law school is not an entitlement program. This does not matter if you're in a tier one or tier four school--you're not entitled to a job; you earn employment.


    "Ostin M. Warren, M.A.
    Marketing Coordinator and Psychology Intern

    Ostin Warren is currently in his final year of a dual-doctoral program at Widener University's Institute for Graduate Clinical Psychology and School of Law. He earned his Bachelor of Arts in Psychology Honors, Sociology, and Philosophy from Concordia College in Moorhead, Minnesota, and his Master of Arts degree in Clinical Psychology from Widener University.

    Mr. Warren is the Psychology Intern at KCC, focusing on depression, anxiety, and substance abuse treatment issues. He has particular clinical and scholarly interests in forensic psychology assessment, interventions for substance and addictive disorders, LGBT issues, and working with law students and legal professionals. He is also the Marketing Coordinator and in that capacity oversees the monthly newsletter, website, print, and e-mail marketing for KCC.

    Mr. Warren has also been a frequent presenter on a variety of topics, including talks on stress management and clincial (sic) issues of law school students and lawyers, forensic psychology lectures, and presentations on LGBT family dynamics and clinical interventions. He is passionate about and involved with several civic and volunteer activities, both in and outside of psychology."

    Ostin M. Warren, M.A. - you have attained several degrees and work in psychological counseling. In fact, you have earned an M.A. in Clinical Psychology from Widener University. You also work with law students and "legal professionals." (That ought to keep you busy and earning a nice salary - as lawyers suffer high rates of depression, anxiety, alcoholism, drug abuse, poor overall health, feelings of inadequacy and suicide, etc.)

    Lastly, what about the wealthy kid who attends a TTTT, earns average - or below average - grades and lands a six-figure job with daddy's firm?!?! Employment is often not "earned" - on some merit-based system. Often, people are rewarded for being born into the "right" families. Also, in companies that recognize an "employee of the year," this award usually goes to the best politician/ass-kisser in the firm. These people typically manage to hold onto their jobs, in down-times.

    Thanks for playing, Ostin. With you background in clinical psychology, you probably do have three such offers. However, it appears that this is not traditional "legal" employment - or you might have mentioned that in your comment above. Oh well, at least your commode of law will have one more nice non-legal job to post in its employment and salary figures.

  25. I taught there for several years. The then brand new Dean was clueless enough to put in writing a memo to all faculty that for every "A" given to a student, another student must be given an "F"; and that every "B" must be balanced with a "D". The school admitted enough students to fill every available seat, regardless of whether the student had the scores and grades indicative of likely success or not. This was to maximize income to the school. But then, in order to keep the bar pass rates up, these students were to be failed out at the end of the first year.

    Doesn't that absolutely stink?

    Encourage and mislead people to take out loans and go in debt, and then humiliate them and greatly damage their self confidence. I refused to do this so my contract was not renewed. I had already lined up another job so gave the Dean no grief about it.

    Nevertheless, I came into my office on a Monday morning and all of the contents of my desk, my filing cabinet and my bookcase had been dumped in one huge pile on the floor. The maintenance guy came in, greatly embarrassed, and apologetic. He told me the Dean had ordered him to take all my furniture out because "the lease was up on it." In the middle of the academic year? And only MY furniture - no one else's? And without the courtesy of giving me advance notice? Yeah, sure! How petty and spiteful.
    To the person asking about Widener vs. Duquesne, Duquesne's not a top school either, but if you want to practise in Pennsylvania, the alumni network is excellent, and Duquesne Law is well represented in the state court system - tons of judges. And Pittsburgh is a great college/university city - far surpasses Wilmington or Harrisburg. I agree with those who say that unless you have family or other connections to secure a first job, you're going to have a very tough time finding any legal job, let alone one paying enough to cover student loans. An MBA is quicker and cheaper.

  26. See how petty "legal professionals," "academics" and "legal scholars" can be, people?!?! If the above story is true, then it is one STINGING indictment against this festering dump of a law school. Apparently, you must submit to the will of administrators who want both cash and to increase the school's bar passage rate. Thanks for the info, 7:30 pm!

  27. I'm beginning to see why nando did not find adequate legal employ. It appears to have little to do with Widener and much to do with his ability to effectively analyze situations and write coherent, logical responses.

    To be clear: my job offers in the psychology world are nowhere near six figures. The first year out with a doctorate in psych will get you about 50k IF YOU ARE LUCKY. I have friends with their doctorates "earning" 25k right now. So I don't think it is my other degrees that have garnered me the good offers. The three offers I originally alluded to are in the legal realm and, in particular, they are in health law. I'm sure you're aware that Widener does better in certain types of law--and health law is one of them. In fact, Widener is well-known for its health law program. Which type of law, if any, did you specialize in Nando?

    I hasten to add that I'm not a Widener Law apologist. The school's bar passage rate is characteristically low. It's facilities are sub-par. Some of the faculty are abysmal. This was all information to be had by any student looking BEFORE they entered.

    Back to my point in writing: law school is not and never has been an entitlement program that entitles one to a job. The economy went sour and law students everywhere find themselves in a bad position. I suppose any person who graduates from law school and finds difficulty with employment can easily blame their alma matar; however, that blame is typically misplaced in today's market.

  28. Ostin M. Warren, you wrote the following on August 27, 2010:

    "I'm graduating this year and have three separate six-figure offers in a down economy."

    This does not exactly say, "I have three law firm offers," does it? There are other ways in which JDs and law schools can distort the true picture of the legal market - some of them with no intent to deceive. For instance, rich kids who earned average grades at TTTT law commodes, and still found legal employment. In your eyes, however, these students "earned" their employment, right?!?! Also, those who had professional careers before law school, and then returned to their prior job upon graduation. TTTs love these students, as they can foot some of the bill, and then be added to the list of employed grads.

    Knowing this, I simply looked you up and discovered your level of education, and that you help treat “legal professionals” in a clinical setting. You are aware that the law schools, and NALP, count non-legal employment in reaching their job placement rates, correct?

    Now, if you want to split hairs about writing styles, take a look at this dreck:

    “Back to my point in writing: law school is not and never has been an entitlement program that entitles one to a job.”

    Ostin M.Warren, can you see where U.S. News & World Report lists $100,849 as the average student indebtedness for those members of the Class of 2009 who incurred law school debt?!?! (Your psychological training does not preclude you from seeing this figure, correct?) Can you also see that 92% of this graduating class took out student loans to attend Widener?!?!

    Widener Law School is ranked as a fourth tier piece of trash by USN&WR. And yet, people are taking out a mortgage they cannot walk away from - to earn a largely useless credential.

    Lastly, there were 44,000 graduates for the law school Class of 2009, competing for 28,901 jobs “requiring bar passage.” Let me guess. Those remaining 15,099 JDs were simply too lazy, morally perverse or intellectually deficient to land legal employment, right?!?!

    By the way, I - and tons of others - earned our jobs by our own efforts. I did not expect the law school to find me a job, Ostin. Is reaching over-simplified conclusions part of your clinical training? I did not expect that a law degree would be such a hindrance to finding *a job*. I was employed within two months of graduating law school. However, I know MANY others who took on huge NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt, and now find that their “investment” was a waste.

  29. As one of those oft segregated evening students I am 100% satisfied with how Widener (D.E.) has prepared me for the practice of law, and feel it necessary to point out a few things that our TTTT school offers.

    First, the fact that law students think there exists four tiers of law schools is not reflective of reality. There are only two tiers. IVY leagues and a few schools on the periphery and everyone else. For example, I know students who went to Widener, were not even at the top of their class, and yet transferred to Temple, Rutgers, or Villanova (arguably better schools). To be sure, if I was not given so much scholarship money I too would have followed suit.

    Second, you fail to recognize that the Law Review at Widener (The Delaware Journal of Corporate Law) Is a nationally recognized law review, and is far beyond many law reviews at the self inflating 3rd tier and 2nd tier law schools. I think it ranked 2nd in all law reviews for business law (above "first tier" schools) and 11th against ALL specialized law reviews (over myriad first tier schools).

    Third, and I think most important, is that you fail to realize that Widener gives a chance for those who could not get into the better schools (because of their LSAT) to become successful lawyers. Sure the curve is hard, but they have to get rid of the people that cannot cut it. Sure the LSAT average is low, but im sure they could just as easily only accept higher LSATS( it is a choice!). Yes, it is expensive but what law school isn't?

    Sure, I am having trouble finding a job, but I have no doubt that I will end up being a lawyer, and a good one at that. Isn't that the point?


    So you would perpetuate the caste system, ignore the legal needs of millions (if only people who went to 8 schools became lawyer), ignore the reality that schools cannot give scholarships to everyone, and ignore the fact that people are not idiots..they know it is hard and expensive. I wish I would have read this "mission statement" first, it reflects an insular idealism and a sheltered world-view. I assume most of what you write is therefore for comic relief and less for practical advice.

    Wack ass blog.

  30. The advice is practical. It is not idealistic, as you allege. If that were the case, then I would be encouraging MORE people to follow their dreams and become lawyers - no matter the realities of the job market or costs. I apologize if this is above your head. Also, learn how to spell "whack."

    "Sure, I am having trouble finding a job, but I have no doubt that I will end up being a lawyer, and a good one at that. Isn't that the point?"

    So, you attended a fourth tier piece of trash, i.e. Widener, and now you are having trouble finding a job. No doubt, you feel this will instill in you a sense of hard work and determination - making you a better lawyer. This logic is so far removed from reality, that it transcends pathetic.

    Isn't finding a job the point of paying large sums of (borrowed) money to attend law school? Also, no one cares how about your fourth tier commode's (alleged) highly-ranked law review.
    The school itself is outmatched and outclassed by better law schools in the region. Nothing -short of AMAZING connections - will remove that toilet stain from your resume.

    Anyway, go ahead and BELIEVE that this toilet will make you a "lawyer, and a good one at that." Let's see how well your naiveté holds up when your student loans balloon - and you are working in a call center. Lastly, the school is providing people - who have little chance of becoming gainfully-employed lawyers - with a "legal education." The schools are happy to take your money, idiot. They do not give a damn what happens to you, upon graduation.

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  33. I went to Widener law (Del.) and it has worked out really well for me. I did my best to transfer out of there, but neither Temple nor Rutgers would take me. My family lives on the west coast and are far from being wealthy or connected, so I never had anyone to give me a leg up. I ended up with a lot of debt, but I had pretty good grades and Widener provided me with a lot of opportunities to make contacts with the Delaware bench and bar and so I managed to land a job at a good firm in town making more than six figures. I know someone else who went there (graduated several years after me), who had what I would characterize as "pretty bad grades" and she also managed to land a job at a good firm in town - making less than me, but still more than $100k.

    As a result, I guess I don't really have any complaints, especially because the first thing the firm asked me to do was to write a research memo EXACTLY like the ones I wrote for Widener's legal methods classes.

    Maybe I got lucky, I don't know. My experience with Widener, both while I was attending and now as an attorney, is that Widener has a mixed bag of students: the rich kids who knew they'd have a job at daddy's firm who played solitaire during class; the idiot kids who took up a lot of class time with their idiotic questions; the super smart kids (i.e., the top 15% in my book); and the rest of us, reasonably intelligent but not super star people. It was always my understanding from day one that Widener took the rich kids and the idiot kids for the purposes of their bottom line - I'm not really sure why that would be so surprising. But I still got a good legal education and, most importantly, Widener worked hard to create connections between the students and the Delaware bench and bar. At the end of the day, those connections are probably what got me my job.

    In any event, what's the point of your blog article? That Widener is a for-profit institution? That it's expensive and it's not Harvard. That they have marketing materials on their website? So what? Are you telling me that when you go to a job interview you're not going to try to portray yourself in the most positive light possible?

    I suppose that, at the end of the day, life takes a bit of luck and a lot of work. And, really, at the end of the day, why in the hell would you want to be a lawyer????

  34. @ 3:12,

    These are supposed institutions of "higher learning." As such, they have a pubic trust. At the least, they have a moral obligation to not fudge their employment and starting salary info. They also receive BILLIONS of dollars in federally-backed student loans, every year. As supposed "professional schools," they have an obligation to PREPARE their students for the practice of law.

    We both know that law school is an EXPENSIVE admission ticket to the bar exam. Could you imagine medical and dental schools not requiring several years of clinical training?! Do you hear dental and medical students losing sleep because they did not land in the top 10% of their class, i.e. "Now, I will never be able to land a decent job"?!

    Look at this NALP chart. For the JD Class of 2009, there were 44,000 graduates - competing for 28,901 jobs “requiring bar passage.” Presumably, even you can figure out that not all of these are traditional lawyer positions. Go take ten minutes out of your day, and look at this chart in-depth. Can you picture U.S. medical schools pumping out FAR TOO MANY graduates?

    Do yourself a favor and read a book called “Outliers: The Story of Success” by Malcolm Gladwell. It illustrates the role of luck and timing, in the lives of successful people. It also drubs the idiotic concept of “the self-made man.” Luck plays a far bigger role in our lives, than we care to admit. So you can take that “hard work” canard and shove it up your nose. PLENTY of people work hard, including the lady who made your lunch sandwich this afternoon. Truth be told, she probably works harder than you - although, you will dismiss her work ethic, since your job is (allegedly) so much more important.

    Download the article, and see the condemnation this man heaps on the fraudulent law schools.

    Don't forget this statement from NYLS dean and pig president Richard Matasar:

    "Law schools are “exploiting” many students who aren’t successful, according to a law school dean who spoke at a program on law school rankings earlier this month.

    “We should be ashamed of ourselves," said Richard Matasar, dean of New York Law School."

  35. I managed to get a full scholarship here and am now in attendance. Am i wasting my time?

  36. Look at the header. Getting a full tuition scholarship is an exception. I would add the following caveat to this exception though: and you really want to be an attorney. If you don't then I think you are still squandering 3 yrs of your life.

  37. I think you need to cool out a little, my friend. Widener is not as bad as you are making it out to be. You may be overlooking some things like the location of the school (in Harrisburg) and the bar passage rate. Widener is the only school in Harrisburg, a place where pretty much the only industry is law. There are plenty of government jobs (when the state isn't in a hiring freeze) and tons of lawyers on every block. Widener's bar passage rate has gone up over the last few years and was in the mid 90s last year and high 80s this year, that is better than most schools in the country.

    I would think that the hallmark of a law school is the bar passage rate. It doesn't matter how hard it is to get in or how much it costs. If you can pass the bar, that is all that matters. That being said, Over the last two years (or bar exams, I think) Widener has been higher than most schools in PA over the last two years and that includes top 100 programs and Ivy League schools. Obviously I am not saying that Widener is a better school than Penn, but if Widener is churning out a higher bar passage rate than them, it at least says that they are a capable school. Think about it...wouldn't you want to go to a school where 96% of people pass the bar (that is roughly the stat from last summer's bar...this summer's was I think in the high 80s, higher than Pitt, Nova, and Penn State, I believe).

    As far as the tuition goes, I agree it is absurd to pay that much, but that is just how it is. And for the deans making that much money...they are law school deans, what do you expect them to make? Yeah Widener isn't Ivy League, but they are still a law school and a dean of any law school is going to be making tons of money. That's just how it is. There are a lot of crappy organizations and companies where the higher ups make tons of money, that's how it is. It would be tough to get a lawyer to be the dean of the law school if they were going to make less than they would practicing.

    The bottom line is, when it comes to a law school, the only thing that matters is what you make of it. If you go to Widener and are top of the class, you will be fine. Even if you are not top of the class, you will be fine. You won't start out making $100k anywhere, but you'll be a lawyer making money. The salaries are going to be higher coming from better schools, but that is to be expected. I don't think anyone goes to Widener with dreams of making $100k at a big firm in NYC. But if you do well and make connections, it won't be hard getting a job.

    Also, your comment about people having clerkships and that not being a good thing is pretty silly. Clerkships are some of the most sought after and hardest positions to get. They don't pay much, but you gain great experience and make great connections. To make a comment like the one you made there shows just how little you know about this subject.

  38. To the moron above,

    Clerkships do not pay well. That *might* pose a problem to students who owe $120K in student loans. Will the student lending pigs be sympathetic if you are making $32K as a clerk in traffic court?

    “A good rule of thumb is that your total education debt SHOULD BE LESS THAN your expected starting salary. If you borrow more than twice your expected starting salary you will find it extremely difficult to repay the debt.”

    By the way, are legal employers impressed by a juvenile court clerkship? If you believe that is the case, then YOU are sadly mistaken.

    US News & World Report lists the average indebtedness of 2009 Widener Law graduates who incurred law school debt: $100,849. Furthermore, 92% of this wretched Widener graduating class took on law school debt.

    “The bottom line is, when it comes to a law school, the only thing that matters is what you make of it. If you go to Widener and are top of the class, you will be fine. Even if you are not top of the class, you will be fine.”

    You simply prove the point that there are too many law schools pumping out far too many JDs. Do medical and dental students lose sleep if they don’t get into Harvard? Do they pull their hair out, if they don’t land in the top 10% of their class? In the end, law is all about “prestige.”

    Unlike medical and dental schools, law schools do not teach their students to be practitioners. They teach them “how to think like a lawyer.” As such, legal employers look to pedigree of the school and class rank, as a litmus test. Frankly, many of the lower-ranked schools teach some practical skills – and yet most legal employers would rather hire someone who attends a high-ranked law school.

    You can defend this school – with supposition and opinion – all you want. Your self-interested opinion of the school DOES NOT change the fact that this school is a FOURTH TIER piece of trash.

  39. I've got to disagree with your post. It is evident you have no idea what your are talking about. I have classmates and know of other alums who are highly successful partners at major, elite, prestigious law firms. Widener has a huge presence in the judiciary in New Jersey and Pennsylvania. Many Widener alums are succeeding in business and in small firms. By your logic Gerry Spence should not have bothered becoming a lawyer because he went to Wyoming Law. Today he is clearly among the greatest trial lawyers to ever set foot in the courtroom. The key to success is working hard to serve your clients. No one cares where you went to law school once you get out there and start working. No supposition or opinion. Sorry. Just facts, common sense and a small dose of logic and reality.

  40. To the dolt above,

    Fact: Widener is a fourth tier piece of trash.

    Fact: The school charges $34,800 in yearly tuition.

    Fact: The total cost of attendance for the 2010-2011 academic year - according to the commode - was $52,394.

    Fact: There were 44,000 JDs for the Class of 2009 competing for 28,901 jobs requiring bar passage.

    How are those for COLD, HARD FACTS, Bitch?!?! Oh, your feelings were hurt with those troublesome facts. All you provided was anecdotal evidence. Look, William Daley graduated from TTTT John Marshall Law School in Chicago. Now, he will become Obama’s chief of staff. See?!?! Anyone can become wildly successful if they just get that law degree and work their butt off! (By the way, Daley is the son of mayor and political boss Richard Daley. But, he can attribute ALL of his success to his own hard work, right?!)

    You also point to Gerry Spence as an example of hard work. Guess what, Dumbass?!?! Gerry Spence graduated from the University of Wyoming’s law school in 1952!! He also developed his own unique trial persona and techniques, such as speaking from the heart. This is frowned down upon by many judges and lawyers, by the way. Oh well, he has won major cases and earned a lot of respect and money – as a result. What does he know, right?!

    I submit to you that someone can still go to a school such as Wyoming, i.e. a cheap state school, and do well for themselves. They can graduate with a JD, and manage to keep their debt levels down. This is NOT the case with Widener TTTT. Again, it charges $34,800 in annual tuition.

    See where Widener only offers full-tuition scholarships to exactly 1.3% of its students?!?! The commode also only provides half-tuition scholarships to 2.1% of its students/victims. Apply some logic, moron. (I understand that this will be extremely difficult for your little pea-sized brain, but try it anyway, Dumbass.) This means that students who attend this fourth tier piece of trash will be financing the bulk of their “legal education” through student loans.

    Still have doubts about my logic and facts, bitch? Take a look at this listing from US News. It shows that the average student indebtedness for the Widener Law Class of 2009 was $100,849. Plus, 92 percent of this particular TTTT graduating class incurred law school debt.

  41. If your criticism is of law school tuitions, your point is well taken. I agree law schools are too costly. I also agree that certain salaries are high. With the exception of State schools, the tuitions are too expensive. But the tuitions are too high everywhere. I had loans, and i paid them off. But you then make the unjustified leap that Widener is a lousy school and those who go their are barred from success. The simple fact is--in spite of your ad hominem attacks--widener is producing extremely successful attorneys. The evidence is hardly anecdotal.

    Your logic is flawed and the undeniable facts fly in your face when you make the comment that unless you go to a top 8(I think you said) law school it isn't worth going.

    I also fail to see the relevance of the year Gerry went to law school. His son Kent has huge verdicts to his name as do many attorneys across America who went to supposedly lesser law schools.

    But I wholeheartedly agree with you that in general it is tragic that any student come out of law school $100,000 in debt whether it be a non scholarship student at Harvard or a student from Widener. But the name on the diploma is not the issue. The education provided at Widener is as good as anywhere else. Then the question becomes what do you do with it.

  42. I know no one will read this, but for what it's worth, I went to Widener(DE) and came out OK. Sure I have the 100k in debt, but I graduated with my J.D. (2007) passed the Maryland Bar and managed to score a judicial clerkship in the process. Am I making six figures? No. Of course not. But I'm comfortable, I make ends meet, and don't regret my decision for an instant.

    I didn't even do that great grades wise. I was one of the unfortunate souls struck badly by the draconian grading curve(in one class the median grade was an 87, I scored an 86 and wound up with a C-). But like many attorneys who aren't fortunate enough to make it to Yale, I got lucky and fell into a good string of opportunities.

    The thing about Widener is that unless you live and work in Delaware it's impossible to realize that the school has a sort of cult following in the corporate community.

    Delaware is the corporate Mecca and the DE bar has a stranglehold on it's admissions. The bar is proliferated with tons of Widener alums seeing as it's Delaware's only law school, and I know of a number of attorneys from my graduating class who all scored a winning ticket in the Big Law lottery. They all worked hard, got good grades in a bad system and are damn good attorneys. What rankingslike US News don't take into account, is that since DE is such a small place, schools like Widener earn great reputations locally that turn to absolute shite once you get outside of a 100 mile or so radius. Schools like the University of Baltimore have the same problem. In the region the schools are highly respected, but on a national scale, well we see how it goes...

  43. “Your logic is flawed and the undeniable facts fly in your face when you make the comment that unless you go to a top 8(I think you said) law school it isn't worth going.”

    Check out the header on this blog. There are four exceptions listed: (1) admission to a top 8 law school; (2) full-tuition scholarship to attend; (3) having employment as a lawyer SECURED through a relative or close friend; or (4) you are FULLY AWARE beforehand that your huge investment does not, in any way, guarantee a job as an attorney or in the legal industry.

    I would add that if one pays full sticker to attend a top 8 school, this could also lead to financial hell. Why take out $180K to attend Penn or Columbia Law, when those students are not guaranteed jobs?

    “I also fail to see the relevance of the year Gerry went to law school. His son Kent has huge verdicts to his name as do many attorneys across America who went to supposedly lesser law schools.”

    I mentioned the year he graduated because it matters. (Don’t act like it doesn’t enter into the equation.) By the way, I doubt Mr. Spence took out any student loans for his education. Now, you are referring to his son. Yeah, he didn’t have any connections or inside track, did he?!?!

    “He was a carpenter until, when inspired by the possibilities of being a lawyer at age 24 and making a difference fighting for the rights of people, he decided to consider a college education after all. He went to University of Montana and received his undergraduate degree in Philosophy in 1982. He got his Juris Doctor at Mercer University, Walter F. George School of Law in Macon, Georgia in 1986.”

    As you can see from his firm’s bio, Kent Spence went to Mercer University Sewer of Law. He also has a Philosophy degree from the University of Montana. I am sure he is a highly skilled litigator. What do you expect? He learned the trade from one of the best trial lawyers this country has ever produced. He is a partner in his legendary dad’s firm. Name another person with Kent’s particular academic credentials who are raking in BIG money. If his name were Kent Jones, his ass would be struggling to pay off his student loans.

    You should refrain from straw men arguments. Again, I have never said “every student who goes to a low-ranked law school will be screwed.” Even TTTTs can produce JDs who go onto wildly successful careers. However, that is the exception.

    Do yourself a favor and check out this paper, from professor Herwig Schlunk.

  44. I notice a distinct lack of comments in this (and in virtually every other board that criticizes a specific law school or law school in general) along the lines of "I graduated from Widener in the top of my class and I can't find a job". I wonder why that is...

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  46. Below is an excerpt from Widener's course descriptions webpage. Does anyone else see a problem here, besides the fact that ALL of the topics(with the possible exception of class actions) taught in Widener's Civ Pro 2 class should be taught in Civ Pro 1?

    Oh yeah....They use the term "joiner" instead of "joinder."

    What a joke....

    LAW 504: CIVIL PROCEDURE II (2 credits)
    This course consists of several units that explore topics and issues beyond those covered in the basic first-year Civil Procedure course. Units may include such matters as res judicata and collateral estoppel, forum non conveniens, joiner of parties, and introduction to class actions, and an introduction to the Erie doctrine.
    Prerequisite: LAW 502: Civil Procedure I

  47. Wahh wahh wahhh. "I willingly went to law school on my own volition and now my hopes and dreams of which I am ENTITLED to haven't panned out". It's all about what you do with the diploma in your hand. Be creative, shake hands, kiss babies, beg, plead, get on your knees, and FIND A JOB. Nobody held a gun to your head as you took the LSAT, applied to Widener, and attended it. If your Nanny-logic is correct, you would need to be informed of all the pitfalls at every stage of the game and your ignorance of such can only be pawned off to some person that never held your hand. Caveat emptor, halfwit.

  48. Feb 16th 10:06 I suppose doesn't mind getting on his knees for a shit-ass job. Also the guy who writes this blog didn't attend Widener. Ya got that, shit-for-brains?

  49. Citizen of EntitlementtownFebruary 19, 2011 at 8:31 AM

    I was talking about anybody who bitched about widener on this discussion post, sharp-shooting douche. Scroll up, there are plenty. Get real.

  50. Hahaha. Look at Nando's profile logo. He hates capitalism which makes complete sense. He's looking for some entitlement program to GIVE him a job.

  51. I have a job, bitch. In fact, I landed a job within two months of graduating from a TTT law school. I found my own job, which is the case for many recent JDs. Look at the number of law grads from the Class of 2009 who went solo, returned to their old jobs, etc.

    As you can see, this graduating class had 44,000 members - competing for 28,901 jobs requiring bar passage.

    Head over to page two, cretin. Do you think you can accomplish that task?! Look under Source of Job. In total, 28,730 jobs are listed. Of this amount, 646 found openings via job fairs; 4,012 as a result of job postings; 726 from commercial internet sites; 2,156 from "other" sources; 2,198 returned to their prior jobs; referrals landed in 4,338 JDs finding jobs; 1,385 desperate souls started their own practice; 5,887 were SELF-INTIATED; and 288 were employed via temp hag agencies.

    Do you see that only 6,709 were the result of Fall on-campus interviews, and 375 from Spring OCI?!?! By the way, plenty of these OCI hires were deferred for several months - and in some cases, the job never materialized. Apparently, Biglaw firms are not keen on hiring new associates, in times of economic malaise.

    Also, I don't inherently hate capitalism. I have a HUGE problem with the casino capitalist system in place, in this country. Anybody with an IQ above 85 - and a sense of honesty and decency - KNOWS that the game is rigged.

    Ultra-wealthy families and corporations OWN this place lock, stock and barrel. They pay off the politicians from "both" major political parties. They then receive tax breaks. Do these pigs re-invest in this country, or its people?! Hell, as soon as these cockroaches receive this loot, they store it away in offshore bank accounts - or they create jobs in Jakarta, Sri Lanka, Beijing, Hong Kong, etc. So much for gratitude, huh?

    Maybe you can support such a fraudulent system. Do me a favor. Go up to a regular, blue-collar working man, and tell him how great this system is. See how long it takes him to bounce your head off of his front steps, or to slam your face against the pavement.

  52. I was thinking I would see WU's law school here and they didn't dissappoint. Widener University itself is mediocre, so it would make sense that it spawned a low ranking lawyer factory. Carry on the good work, Nando (though the photos of sewage and excrement are nasty.)

    [Came to this blog from "Shilling Me Softly", before that the NYT article, and the Academic Jobs Wiki before that.]

  53. This is all bullshit... I just graduated from Widener Law last year, I worked hard, was in the top 15% of my class and make over 100K a year. I had no connections going into law school, just a work ethic and decent people skills. If you don't believe me that you can do well here look at many of the large firms in Philly, Wilmington, New York, and even D.C., many of them have Widener grads in there ranks. You people need to get over yourselves.

  54. @ 7:11- In Nando's world no one succeeds with a law degree. It's obviously that he didn't even put in the work to do so, he says he got a job outside the legal field two months after school, meaning he likely didn't take the bar exam. Which also means he's a little bitch who gave up on the field he chose, and now bitterly bashes people he knows nothing about.

  55. March 17, 2011 3:26 PM

    My you are silly.

    I can think of NO scamblogger, let alone this one, who says NO ONE (your words) succeeds with a law degree. By all means, go to law school, have fun with it, do well.

    The scambloggers merely point out that for most people, law school is at best a poor investment. It is a plain, simple cold and hard fact that 90% of any given class will not make it into the top 10% of their particular toilet bowl law school; that is, NO MATTER HOW HARD THEY WORK (unlike the representations of our 15% friend above to the contrary). He is wrong about that. Sometimes, it is simply a matter of people taking an easier courseload to keep their GPA up, depending therefore on the bar review course to get them up to speed for the licensing.

    No one is stopping you from going to law school. Why in the world would you NOT want the scambloggers to continue to help eliminate your possible future competitors from going? Are you somehow irrational in a business sense? Sure sounds like it.

  56. MAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  57. Just about to finish up my second year at the above mentioned institution. Most of the criticisms are valid. 1/3 of those admitted are forced to flunk out in the first year.

    I should also add that Widener's self-described "rigorous grading policy," forces the faculty to curb downwards so that average first year G.P.A. is between 2.3.-2.7. (It's up to their discretion, if they want to make the class average a 2.3 no problem. Keeping in mind that in most law schools anything below a B is failing!) The "rigorous grading policy" lightens up a little bit during the 2nd and 3rd year, with the average G.P.A. only being forced down to be between a 2.7-3.1.

    But think about that: why would a 4th tier school want to so drastically deflate their grades ? You would think that 4th tier schools would inflate their grades, giving their students higher G.P.A.'s to make up for the school's poor reputation and giving the student a little bit better employment prospects.

    Widener does not care at all about students. It's all about money. And if the grading policy was normal a good chunk of students would have high enough GPA's to transfer out of this hellhole, and they would do it in a heartbeat. But they deflate grades to maintain an average GPA below any law school in nation so you are trapped spending three years over, $100,000 and graduating with "C" average from a fourth tier school.

    As is it I'm considering dropping out, retaking the LSAT's, and applying to another school starting again as a 1L. Anyone know if this plan could work out?

  58. MAMA .....No WORKIE OUT..............MAMA!


    “MAMA .....No WORKIE OUT..............MAMA!

    May 6, 2011 1:40 PM”

    Time Visitor Session Referrer
    May 6 2011 1:34pm 8 actions 6m 9s Widener third tier reality

    Quit calling out “MAMA” when your step-father is climbing on top of you and forcing his penis down your throat, despicable cockroach. The bitch doesn’t care about you. If she did, then she would quit dating men who beat the hell out of her, as well as those who molest her son. Then again, the lousy whore you call “MAMA” is more than happy to blow various men, who keep supplying her with meth and crack.

    Your best bet is to run away from home, you piece of trash. If you call the cops, after your bitch mother’s “boyfriend” touches you, i.e. rams his penis in your rectum, they will not care. NYPD receives many such calls, in the course of a month. Don’t expect them to place the case of a 34 year old who lives with his mother, at the front of the line.

    Are you upset because former and current Widener Law students have had the nerve to report their experience, cockroach?!?! Why are you researching Widener, when you live in New York? Let me guess: you were not smart enough to get into any of the numerous NYC area schools. Your crackhead mother must be very proud. Don’t come crying here when you end up with $100K in additional, NON-DISCHARGEABLE student debt - and no job. You were warned, you piece of waste.

  60. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  61. @Nando re: Mr. Warren, MA: When did Widener start (or stop) offering a Masters degree in Psychology? To the best of my knowledge they only offer the PsyD.

  62. Widener is everything nando says it is - only worse. This includes its School of Social Work in Chester, who dismissed me half-way through the second semester of my last year without warning, without prior notice, unethically, and illegally, blatantly disregarding all of its published guidelines regarding non-academic dismissals. The Dean didn't even know that she was required to give me a letter of dismissal. But my main reason for agreeing with nando is this: I have been unable to obtain legal representation thus far because all of the lawyers that I have contacted were Widener graduates who stated that representing me against the Widener School of Social Work would be a conflict of interest. Even as a non-lawyer I know that's bullshit.

  63. To the mentally-impaired, piece of trash who posted the comment on May 17, 2011 5:25 am,

    This analysis has been supported by those who have attended this waste pile, bitch. If YOU want to keep sucking the dean's anus, then knock yourself out. But do not expect everyone to share your enthusiasm for this festering dung heap.

    "Avoid this overpriced sewer pit as if your life depended on it,” writes the anonymous author of the blog Third Tier Reality — a reference to the second-to-bottom tier of the U.S. News rankings — in a typically scatological review. “Unless, of course, you think that you will be better off with $110k-$190k in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt for a degree that qualifies you to wait tables at the Battery Park Bar and Lounge.”

    When is the last time YOU were quoted in the New York Times Sunday edition, cockroach?!?!

    By the way, after you remove your lips and tongue from the dean's ass, keep your silly mouth shut. Also, brush your teeth and take some breath mints.

  64. Nando, I am a successful Widener law graduate. I just want to say that I feel sorry for you. You will probably remove my comment and use foul language while referring to me but someone must have pity on you.
    I am sorry that your personality and the hatred that is inherently visible in your behavior have alienated you from being successful. Clearly you have to blame anyone else but you. I am very proud of Widener, and frankly, you should stick your head in the toilet and flush it, right after you go f=/&*% yourself.

  65. May 23, 2011 12:13 PM:

    Couldn't quite hold that temper, eh, 12:13?
    Don't take the rightful bashing of this third-tier toilet bowl personally. My own alms mater was thoroughly trashed by this blog and others. Rightfully so, too. I'm not mad about it at all.

    These "schools" of law knowingly and willingly take in and charge exorbitant prices for an education which many of their graduates will be unable to effectively use in a remunerative fashion. Good for you if it all worked out, and congratulations.

    However, I know many for whom it has not, and at today's prices, blogs like this one get the attention of the kids to the extent some may take more seriously the level of commitment, at least financially, that attending law school really requires. It (law school) does have the potential to financially ruin some, and they should know these very real risks beforehand. The portrayals in the glossy brochures of these toilets don't sufficiently do this, to say the least.

    What I canot understand is why the scamblogs should offend you. It is irrational in a business sense. If a scamblog like this one should deter one more lemming from entering the festeringly and horrifically overcrowded field of law, does that not take away one more possible future competitor of yours? Why would you be against that?

    On the othr hand, if you are as confident in your choice of school as you have indicated, why would you even care what some scamblogger says? Let alone get angry about it?

  66. To the piece of trash who posted on May 23, 2011 at 12:13 pm,

    I am not the one charging obscene sums for a fourth tier "legal education," bitch. Keep in mind that legal employers care VERY much about a law school's reputation.

    In the final analysis, 12:13 is a pussy. He doesn't even have the balls to swear. I wouldn't be surprised if this ass-hat was hired by the Widener University Sewer of Law.

    The fact is that someone who is practicing law - or trying to establish himself as an attorney - is too busy with his caseload to give these sites the time of day. Law students are occupied with studying and finding work. The commodes of law, however, have a great deal of intere$t in trying to shout these blogs down.

    As 4:38 notes, a practicing lawyer might actually be happy with blogs that may prevent others from applying to law school. After all, it couldn't hurt them to face less competition. Then again, established attorneys may want to face untested "adversaries" in court.

    I am content to flush your face and ass down the commode, 12:13. If you re-surface, turd, I will push the handle down again.

  67. Wow. I am truly amazed at your blog, Nando. It seems you have nothing better to do with your life than wistfully lament over your lack of legal aptitude by assailing other schools. I went to Widener. I graduated magna cum laude and in the top 5 of my class. I have less than 50,000 in debt because I earned scholarships. I am now employed in a state-wide non-profit organization. I beat out several other applicants from tier one schools. I worked hard to get where I am ... and Widener helped out along the way.

  68. @ 12:21 pm,

    I received a full-tuition scholarship to attend Third Tier Drake, for all three years. My wife was employed full time, while I worked during the summers. She never made more than $31K per year - with a Master's degree!

    As such, I took out $37K in student loans, to cover living expenses. In essence, you are helping to prove my point that law school is a bad financial decision for MOST students, i.e. "I graduated magna cum laude and in the top 5 of my class. I have less than 50,000 in debt because I earned scholarships."

    Review this economic paper, from Vanderbilt "law professor" Herwig Schlunk. His conclusion is that law school is a poor investment for most students. Would YOU contend that law school is a wise decision, for most prospective students?!?!

  69. The Delaware Journal of Corporate Law . . .

  70. I attended this school when it was the Delaware School of Law. I was there when they transitioned to Widener School of Law and the opening of their Harrisburg Campus. I made the mistake of going to the Delaware campus because in the three years I attended, all resources were attributed to the conversion and opening, not to mention the better professors. Maybe I was a bit jealous but as one student said to me as we walked to class: "I can't believe how they are casting us aside and I'll tell you I will NEVER contribute to this school as an alumni". I happen to agree with him.

    I was gainfully employed prior to attending but sought out this school because of my interest in corporate law and DE Chancery Court and its history. It does give a good opportunity to mingle with judges of the equity court but bottom line is I failed the DE bar - go figure. I am licensed in two other states by examination, but not passing the bar in the state of the law school?

    btw- I passed the multi-state, ave score on all 13 essays passed, (passed simultaneous NJ essays), overall passing grade on the bar exam, passed ethics, BUT more than 5 of my essays out of the 13 were below 80% (3 @ 75%), therefore I failed the DE bar. Did I mention it is the ONLY SCHOOL in Delaware? You'd think they would have prepared me more, I mean Bar/Bri can only do so much.

    oh, and I still haven't broken even, although I have been employed ever since - no kids, divorced and probably wont be meeting anyone to start a family, no meaningful investments in gold, stocks bonds or savings, no real property that would have appreciated over the years, all because of the debt, which over the years represented loss opportunity, more debt to make ends meet. So we can add loss of a young life and associated opportunities to the list for Widener (or any other TTTT school for that matter).

    Wait, is that an ambulance I hear, GOTTA GO!

  71. Nando has a chair made out of the ballsacks of Emus he raped.

  72. I went to Widener Law. It is a fact that Widener is not ranked as high as a lot of other law schools, and it is very expensive. When I graduated, it was initially very difficult to get a job practising as a lawyer. It took me almost 4 years to find a job in a law firm practising as an attorney.

    However, once I got that initial job and got the experience, it was a lot easier after that. I have student loan debt which I am paying off, and my aim is to pay it off in the next 15 years. I feel that I got a good education at Widener, but I can understand what Nando is saying as well, and he (or she)does have a point.

    I have just come across an article today on the web about some graduates bringing class action suits against certain law schools (Widener included)for misleading post graduation employment statistics. It is worth checking out.

  73. do not spend your money, do not attend under any circumstances, graduated top 10% nver had one job prospect neither did any of my firends who graduated from here. useless degree, disgrace.

  74. We all know there are people that graduated from TTT and TTTT schools that are making six figures but what everyone fails to consider is law school was a lot cheaper just a decade ago than it is now, loan debt could be discharged, technology wasn't there to draft documents (wills, art of inc, etc), and the fact that US News rankings did not matter anywhere near they did now, and the economy wasn't in the shithole it is now. If you go to a TTT or TTTT now, you must have a solid plan in place as to how you will pay for it and the job you want (hopefully you have a good HR contact already).
    I must, however, disagree about evening programs. People already working and doing an evening program are at an advantage of everyone else as someone pointed out. I know people who have worked for larger companies that had their evening tuition paid for by their employer. This is pretty rare for full tuition but most companies will pay some amount to go back to school while you work. Attending the evening program at a TTT and TTTT suddenly becomes pretty advantageous. I am not defending their practices or speaking to the quality of their education. I am just stating, as mentioned in Nando's disclaimer, that you can still make out if you attend these schools;you just have to be in the right situation.

  75. Valid points. I will say, however, that Widener is a perfectly fine law school for a person that receives a scholarship and/or has decent employment prospects lined up after graduation. That is to say, the education you will receive is on par with MOST other schools in the country.

    Let's not forget to mention, as well, that we cannot blame all of our problems on the school. If a college graduate makes a decision to take out $150,000 loan (on top of their undergrad loans) with no real potential for employment upon graduating, they are making a poor decision. Just as the fool who takes out a $400,000 loan to purchase a home when they make $35,000 a year, and then is surprised to learn that the bank enabled them to purchase a home they couldn't afford.

    Obviously, the school is screwing people over. But, especially directed at those coming out of under-grad with huge student loans and no job prospects; what made you think you'd be better off securing a job in the legal profession than in any other profession? Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

    Take a little responsibility for your own actions.

    I agree with the overall sentiment, however, and I, too, would encourage anyone going to ANY law school to try to get a scholarship, or at least know you will get a job afterwards.

    1 legal position available for every 4 law school graduates. Wake up people and stop blaming your problems on everybody else. YOU made a poor decision, the school just helped you make it.

  76. Nando got cut from Widener. This was fact-checked and is also hilarious.

    1. I never even applied to Widener "University" Sewer of Law, bitch. In fact, I did not even consider attending this pathetic trash pit. Hell, the first time I heard of this commode was when I posted this entry, cockroach. Get your facts straight, you piece of trash.

      Notice how I rely on charts, graphs, BLS data, NALP employment summary charts, ABA statements, and information from US "News" & World Report, in making my solid case that law school is a terrible gamble for most students. Learn how to conduct basic research, waterhead.

      "IP Lookup Details:
      IP Information -
      Host name:
      Country: United States
      Country Code: US
      Region: PA
      City: Chester
      Latitude: 39.8489
      Longitude: -75.3823

      OrgName: Widener University
      OrgId: WIDENE
      Address: One University Place
      City: Chester
      StateProv: PA
      PostalCode: 19013
      Country: US
      RegDate: 1989-09-08
      Updated: 2011-09-24

      How is life in Chester, Pennsylvania, moron? You are butt hurt because I merely pointed out that your school is a steaming pile of excrement. Learn to accept reality, Stupid.

      From Analytics, mental midget:

      Visitor detail
      Visits: 1

      Unique ID: 2791900459
      IP address:
      Locale: Chester, PA, USA / English
      Platform: Internet Explorer 9.0/Windows 7/1366x768

      Visitor path, this visit
      Apr 2 2013
      3:19:05 pm/2010/08/wipe-thoroughly-widener-university.html
      THIRD TIER REALITY: Wipe Thoroughly: Widener University School of
      [secure search]

      You are welcome for the beatdown, you lying piece of garbage. Have a bad day, pussy.

  77. Widener Law is a steaming shit pile. Only a paid asshole or dumbshit would defend it.

  78. €£¥£€M&$&A&$&&M€£££A!

  79. Couple of thoughts. First, I think your decision to go to Widener depends on your ultimate goals. I scored in the 90th percentile on the LSAT and turned down a scholarship to Penn State to accept a full ride to Widener, but then I want to work in public interest law. I my case, it makes sense to go to the cheapest possible option.

    Also, just wanted to clarify (from a comment in the middle of the group somewhere) that it is not the bottom third that is cut, but rather the bottom 10%. After the first semester, the bottom third is removed from Crim and is put in a sort of essay-writing class. They tend to do much better the second semester.

  80. Widener University is a true shithole. it's embarrassing.

  81. Nando must really have it out for Widener for some reason. All law schools are expensive. I probably wouldn't go to any law school with the present economy and job market for lawyers. But, I went to Widener, liked the campus, and really liked the education, passed the bar on the first time and secured employment. It was some time ago that I attended, and I worked my way to 200k+ in-house corp. counsel. I took some summer courses at Rutgers Newark to have a comparison available for any negative Widener elitists that I may run into and got three A's and an B+. I thought the Rutgers campus sucked, and the 3 professors were sub-par except for a visiting Georgetown Law prof. Also, the grading was a joke in comparison. At Widener I got to take Adv. Corp. Law with a Justice of the Delaware Supreme Court and another course with then Sen. Joe Biden. Nothing was bad about the education there, quite the opposite, and the bar pass rate confirms this, Would my journey have been easier with Yale or Harvard to show ... sure.

  82. fact: 4 years after being featured here Widener School of Law is still a fourth tier piece of shit.


    On October 1, 2014, Delaware Law Weekly published a Jeff Mordock piece, which was entitled "Widener Law Asks Marketing Firm to Assess Possible Name Change." Take a look at the text of that article:

    "Widener University School of Law has asked a marketing and public relations firm to seek insight from students, faculty and staff about a potential name change in anticipation of the American Bar Association approving the proposed split of its Harrisburg, Pa., and Wilmington campuses."

    As you can see, Widener Univer$iTTTTy Sewer of Law is a pathetic dung heap. Anyone who defends this trash pit is in dire need of a brain shunt.

  84. I am a current student at Widener and have a 3.0. The truth is the school and administration sucks. Issue 1, we are in the process of changing our school name. Widener in Harrisburg, PA will be called something different, so the slight chance we had for name recognition has gone out of the Window. Unless you are literally in the top 10 not 10%, the your job prospects are poor. The career development office is terrible. The don't have a clue as to what's required to ensure employment. Most students that come here are rejects of there of previous career, so a lot of cops, administrative state workers. The reality is a good employee/supervisor is good anywhere, a law degree does not improve upon that. Don't waste your time or money. If you have a bachelors degree in the liberal arts don't assume life is any better with a law degree from a 4th tier school. Now you just have debt and title that little people respect because there is no income associated 4th tier piece of shit law school graduates.

  85. As a top 5% student here, I completely disagree with this entire post. Seeking ANY higher education in general is a risky venture and nobody is guaranteed a job. But, attending Widener has absolutely been the best decision I have ever made! The faculty is top-notch and many double as visiting professors at Penn, Temple, NYU, and Georgetown to name a few. Widener gets a bad rap because it gives student with lower LSATs the opportunity to pursue a legal career. That being said, the LSAT has been shown time after time to fail as an indicator for success as an attorney. My guess is that many of the past students (or disgruntled outsiders) commenting on this post should not have attended any law school to begin with and want to blame Widener for taking a risk and giving them a chance. But-- the institution is remarkable because, as the only law school in Delaware, their are so many opportunities that I never would have had anywhere else. I've interned in the Chancery Court and the Supreme Court, had my article published in the Delaware Journal of Corporate Law -- Widener's Law Review in the top 7% of ALL LAW REVIEWS according to Washington & Lee, and won a regional competition and competed at the NATIONAL level --beating out all the ivys-- all here at Widener. The bottom line is, if you don't put in the work, don't expect to get a cushy job just because you have a JD/passed the bar. Widener's programs, scholarships, faculty and one-on-one attention are fantastic. The ONLY reason it is not ranked is that it accepts students with lower GPAs, some of which do not belong. Don't fear potential candidates, if you are willing to work (which you will have to work very hard at ANY law school), you will get a great education from Widener. Oh, btw-- I'm a first generation law student, not from the area, had a 155 LSAT score yet I have a great six-figure salary waiting for me when I graduate :-)

  86. My experience at Widener was mixed. I did not like it personally and left after 1L with mediocre grades.

    Overall I did not feel well instructed. I was in a top undergrad program and this was much different. By far the best professor I had was a former Penn instructor who was fantastic but over all the instructors were so-so. That is not to say they were bad people or maliciously, knowingly scamming anyone. They were smart and knew what they were talking about, they just weren't great instructors.

    That said my friends who stayed had mixed results. I know the top two students in the class and both of them landed BIG LAW jobs in Delaware, but this was the exception to say the least.

    Another friend who was in the top 10% and an editor on the law review ended up working for a small suburban firm. I don't know what he made, but I doubt it was much.

    His statement was that if he were to do it again he would retake the LSAT and try to get into Temple.

    Others I see on LinkedIn seem to have landed in decent Philly/NJ/NY firms of mediocre standing but I am sure they make some money.

    Overall Widener is probably leaning to the scamish side. Scam is a loaded word of course. We are dealing with Attorneys here and plausible deniability is the name of the game. I am sure many of them realize what is going on with the curve situation and the likelihood of success for some of the students.

    Would I recommend Widener Law or whatever it is called now? No. As bitter as Nando is he has a point about which law schools/what conditions one should attend law school.

    Although it is out of the scope of this blog I would say prospective law students also need to have their eyes open to the profession they are attempting to enter. It is not a glamorous world of money and luxury cars and golf lunches. I worked in the industry for years as a paralegal and consultant and it is generally not pretty.

    BEST CASE Scenario is you are signing away your life to work ludicrous hours to make profits for a handful of people who could give less of a shit about you.

  87. It's not a nice place, the school is a business more than a educational institution.... They formulate a plan to get people to drop out shortly after starting and shortly after taking a large sum of money... It's border line illegal... You can't accept students and then tell them two weeks into classes they're not good enough to be there, especially just after the check clears....the law field is not what is used to be... Go to a state where you don't have to attend law school but can be sponsored by at attorney/ firm you work for to take the bar and thus become an attorney.


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