Thursday, September 16, 2010

Flushing Futures Down the Commode One Class at a Time: Western New England University School of Law


UPDATE: In June 2011, the school changed its name to Western New England University.  It is still a FOURTH TIER DUNG PIT.

http://www1.law.wnec.edu/prospective/index.cfm?selection=doc.6690

Tuition: Full time students at this diploma mill will be charged $35,582 for the privilege of attending this law school for the 2010-2011 academic year. Those attending this diploma factory, as part of the part-time program will only be charged $26,686 for the same school year. I mean, who doesn’t have $26,686 saved up, right?!?!

Estimated Total Cost of Attendance: According to this same document, the school estimates that fees, books, room & board, personal expenses, and transportation, will add another $21,431 to the annual tab. So under the worst-case scenario, a full time WNEC law student is looking at a total annual COA of $57,013. And, not so fast! You see, for $ome rea$on, the school is only counting 9 months of room & board, personal and transportation costs. This must have been an oversight, huh?!

Seeing that actual students will need to eat, sleep and live for twelve months out of the year, and not a mere nine months, a more accurate COA would be $60,423 for one year at this school – for a full-time student.

Ranking: So the school is expensive. No need to worry. After all, you are making a wise investment in yourself. Now, let’s see where U.S. News & World Report lists this prestigious school in its most recent law school rankings. WHAT!?!? Is someone at the publication pulling a fast one? The publication shows that the school is drifting in the fourth tier. How can this be?

http://assets.wnec.edu/14/2009_stats.pdf

Employment and Starting Salary Figures: The school asserts that 140 out of the 170 graduates from the Class of 2009, for whom employment status is known, are either employed or in graduate school. Using these figures, the school comes up with a placement rate of 82.3% for this graduating class. However, 9 of those 140 are in graduate school. This would give us an employment rate of 77.1 percent, not 82.3%, i.e. 131/170. That is REALLY impressive, isn’t it? I mean, these students are DEFINITELY getting their money’s worth, right?!?!
Furthermore, out of the 131 JDs who reported being employed, only 49 responded to the salary info to the school - including only 23 out of 64 JDs who reported being hired as private lawyers. The overall median salary is listed as $50K, and the mean salary is $54,323. Did you notice something strange about this chart? The median and mean salaries for lawyers in private practice is lower than the overall figures. The median salary for private practice attorneys is $40K, and the mean is $52,430.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/grad_debt

Average Student Indebtedness: According to USN&WR, the average indebtedness of 2009 We$TTTTern New England College Sewer of Law grads who incurred law school debt was $94,496. And fully 62 percent of this commode’s 2009 graduating class incurred law school debt.

http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2009/042/108/2009-042108376-05f5d888-9.pdf

Look at page 38 of the university’s 2009 Form 990, to see highest paid employees. We can see that “law professor” William G. Baker made $197,909 in base compensation; $18,500 in other compensation; $19,605 in deferred compensation; and $6,419 in non-taxable benefits – for a grand total of $242,433 for 2008. And look, dean and “professor of law,” Arthur R. Gaudio made $283,134 in TOTAL COMPENSATION for 2008. Eric J. Gouvin also made $195,596 in TOTAL COMPENSATION; Frederick D. Royal “earned” $232,582 in TOTAL COMPENSATION as “professor of law and director of the LL.M. program"; and ‘law professor” Samuel Stonefield made $218,759 in TOTAL COMPENSATION for this same tax year. Higher education does pay off – for the “professors” and administrators, that is.

Conclusion: This school is such a sweltering pile of dung, even the flies and cockroaches would be wise to avoid this place at all costs. A law degree from this pile of rot WILL NOT increase your "marketability." In fact, this school's reputation is so putrid, that legal and non-legal employers will toss your application and cover letter in the trash IMMEDIATELY. They will be offended that an idiot who shells out $130K in student loans to attend such a sewer has even wasted their time. At least, if you attend Syracuse or Pittsburgh, the employer will know the university by its sports teams. What does this un-redeeming piece of filth have to offer?!?!

Remember what our friends at FinAid have suggested as a reasonable amount of student debt:

http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/loanpayments.cgi

“A good rule of thumb is that your total education debt should be less than your expected starting salary. If you borrow more than twice your expected starting salary you will find it extremely difficult to repay the debt.” [Emphasis mine]

Doing the math, does anyone still think that it is wise to take out $100K-$170K for a realistic chance to earn $30K-$45K upon graduation - very likely in a job that does not require a law degree?

128 comments:

  1. Winner!

    "The Career Services fax machine may be used by students solely to send resumes, law transcripts, references, and other application materials to potential employers."

    Hell, they'll even make you student business cards.

    http://www1.law.wnec.edu/careerservices/index.cfm?selection=doc.6373

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  2. Maybe if you worked harder in law school you wouldn't be so bitter and angry. I'm a 3L in a low-ranking law school but worked really hard, did really well, and now have an appellate court clerkship lined up for after graduation. The negativity isn't helping anyone.

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  3. "The negativity isn't helping anyone."

    Yes, it is.

    You, egocentric, the-world-is-defined-by-me you, have a clerkship. Congratulations. But you are one of what I'm guessing is a class of 200 or so. Out of your class of 200 or so, I would guess 150 have "worked really hard" by any objective standard (like compared to the non-legal world). By the the way these things work, only 20% or so could plausibly say they "did really well." You got a clerkship. But what about those 90 people (45% of your class) who (a) "really really hard" and (b) are rather intelligent individuals, by virtue of doing well enough in undergrad/LSAT to get into a 3L?

    So congratulations, special, special you got lucky enough to land at the top of the curve (the difference between a 3.2 and a 3.8 is very, very slim at most schools) and found a clerkship. Therefore, you - the perfectly rational legal scholar - makes the conclusion that ANYONE could find a clerkship if they just had "worked harder in law school."

    I sincerely hope you don't take that level of reasoning into the judge's conferences, because he will be BLOWN AWAY by your amazing deft at problem-solving. Serious systemic flaws in the legal training system? Nah...it's just that people aren't working hard enough!

    Well, guess what, numbnutz, 180 people in your class could theoretically work on law 24 hours a day and be walking little Cardozos and they still wouldn't break the top 10%. And as I already said, a good 45% of your class likely did, in fact, work their living butts off to have no real prospects at a good job.

    As American citizens concerned in a healthy country, this should concern you greatly. Instead of putting those 90 students who are hard workers and intelligent human beings to a productive use, we're sending them to lose-lose law schools so they can be saddled with heavy debt and be trained in a field where supply of labor is greatly outpacing demand.

    This is a national, serious problem in the misuse of intelligent, hard-working people. The negativity (a.k.a. "honesty") on this blog will hopefully deter people from this wasteful sham and instead into other fields, like accounting, business (not the same as "getting an MBA"), engineering, public sector work, foreign language expertise, etc.

    But yeah, you individually "worked really hard" and "did really well" so there's nothing wrong with the system. Okay, dumbass. Maybe if you actually learned something the last three years, you would have learned that great lawyers have a firm command of common sense and logical reasoning, both of which should lead you to think anecdotal you says nothing about the systemic problems that this blog, and others, seeks to expose, and even a cursory understanding of logic and statistics would make you realize it's not an issue of work ethic.

    Good luck on your clerkship. If your judge is worth his/her weight in salt, you'll need all the help you can get because he'll call you an idiot - regularly - if you show up with commentary like that.

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  4. 6:49: Will it now be possible for the remaining 90% of the class (or at least the ones without a relative down at the courthouse) to squeeze into your oh-so-lucky grouping through THEIR "hard work". Or are they all lazy schmucks?

    Smug much?

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  5. As a legal employer, I really have to question a person's judgment when they list a school such as the one featured on their resume. Half of the schools profiled on this blog are places I never even heard of and I am in the NYC market and have been in this profession for almost 20 years. I realize in that time the ABA has approved of some 30 additional law schools with more on the way.

    Folks if WNE is truly the best you can do, you really have no business being a lawyer. If you choose to attend schools such as WNE, then you are deserving of a public flogging.

    Schools like WNE are the Yugos of the automotive world--yet have a BMW price tag. Only a fool would pay BMW prices for a Yugo. Does that fit you? If so, don't expect a legal job from me.

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    Replies
    1. Thanks for making my home state look ridiculous

      Delete
  6. Working hard really means nothing in law school. Its all about being lucky. For example, my first year appellate advocacy class: Because of the curve only 2 of 20 made an A in the class. At the end of the year, 10 of the 20 1L finalist for the overall appellate advocacy contest were from my class. The highest grade in my class came close and the winner had a C+.
    The difference between a C+ and an A in that class turned out to be a difference of 20% in class rank.

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  7. edit
    "The highest grade in my class [did not come] close"

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  8. 6:49: With your logical prowess, I wouldn't trust you with a "clerkship" at Play It Again Sports handling customer return "appeals" for shoddy used tee ball sets.

    By the way, my offer is better than yours. But that doesn't mean this entire educational system - and the legal services industry - isn't absolutely fucked up and fundamentally corrupt. It doesn't mean that this industry isn't teetering on the brink of systemic collapse while deans and their useful idiots fiddle as the city burns. It also doesn't mean we both haven't been exploited, despite winning the LS lottery. READ, DAMN YOU, THE TRUTH RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU. IT ISN'T NEGATIVITY! IT IS REALITY! Until you realize this and do something about it, you are a willing contributor to untold human misery. You are scum.

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  9. While the law firm gentleman above would not hire someone from this school, I, the Colonel, would be willing to hire such a student if he was willing to work hard to get our gravy to perfection.

    Remember when I came up wit da lovely popcorn chickens? Remember that? Find yourself a niche, just like I did. People no longer want crunchy popcorn chicken? Fine. Move on and develop rotisserie chicken and market it to death. If customers decide they want something else, then put baked beans on the menu to supplement the Colonels’ array of biscuits (which are the paragon of perfection, wit their crispy, brown edges and soft, succulent, savory, moist heavenly insides.) Mmmmmm…now that’s finger lickin’ good!

    Remember, there are ways to develp your business or law practice. Be flexible. Anyone try my grilled chicken family buckets or bowl items lately? I mean, you can even mix up a beautiful 20 piece family bucket with crispy, original or grilled pieces. What a genius and profitable idea that was. If you are pressed for time and 5 yr old little Joey is impatient or throwing a fucking tantrum, you can get off yer duffs and head over to your nearest location and try some of our macaroni and cheese. You will see that I hire a fair amount of TTT Law grads too. (At some point, i may even be willing to hire some Western New England College of Law grads.) I believe in spreadin’ the wealth, jus’ like I like spreadin’ plenty of butter on the afore-mentioned, heavenly biscuits.

    Feel the market. Learn how to adapt to changes in the market. But don’t be a dumbass about it. Anyone here old enough to remember when Burger King tried to have its cashiers bring your food out to your table and then gave out a free plate of popcorn? I nearly busted a gut when that happened. I thought it was a foolheaded idea. Turns out I was right on that one. Plate of stale popcorn vs. popcorn chickens? C’mon. Is there even a question of which idea was better?

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  10. Listen, the legal world is flooded with lawyers. I have no illusions about that. But rather than condemning all of WNEC, maybe you should warn that people better have a strong sense of reality concerning the legal job market.

    WNEC grads typically have problems finding jobs when they try to work outside of WNEC's reputation range (which I admit, is narrow. It is basically CT and western MA). But within that range WNEC enjoys a good reputation. It is one of the longest running law schools in New England, and there are a lot of lawyers in various firms in Hartford and Springfield that are from WNEC. And yeah, it sucks that professors are getting paid a lot and we have to pay a big tuition. But that is the entire fucking college and university system, not just WNEC.

    The point is that a WNEC Law grad needs to be realistic. (1) The job market as a whole SUCKS right now. I know plenty of UCONN, Suffolk, BC, and BU grads who are having a tough time finding a job right now. But, when the job market picks back up, there will be more jobs. (2) The market for lawyers is competitive. Firms want people who can compete, and win. They want people at the top of the class. The top person from WNEC will do better than the bottom half of the class from UCONN. If you can't handle the risk of competition, don't try to be a lawyer. (3) Five years after graduation, nobody cares about where you went to law school. They care about what you have done. So even if you go to work for a small firm, or a firm that has a weak reputation, if you can show that you are a strong worker or that you can be one of the best in a particular field, you will likely be able to move up into a better job.

    In sum, if you want to make more money, there is going to be some risk that you make none at all. If you can't handle the risk and competition, then don't fucking do it. Yeah the bottom 80% of WNEC will have a tough time getting work, but guess what, the bottom 80% at every law school other than the top ten schools has a tough time finding work.

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  11. Colonel, you're making me hungry. Seriously, this little twit has no idea. Great - you received a clerkship. I hope you have a heightened sense of self-esteem. In the end, it probably won't mean that much, particularly if it is state clerkship (federal clerkships are a little different). In any event, good for you. You beat the odds. You worked REALLY, REALLY hard and you should feel entitled to the red carpet treatment. You're a real bigshot in the making. Now come talk to me in 3-5 years (or perhaps sooner) when you're tossed out on your ear from your BigFlaw job and you can't seem to get back on your feet. In the meantime, you're a wonderful little twit.

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  12. Please ban J-dog and the Colonel .... I read his post and had to clean the lunch off the computer screen I was laughing so hard.

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  13. Absolutely; I figured out real quick that "working hard" is meaningless. I was in the evening program because I worked during the day gaining valuable experience that would set me apart from the rest of my TTT classmates. But here's the thing: Out of 96 part time students, at least half didn't work during the day. So... what's the point of even competing? They've got 2 less classes than the full time section, and 8-10 hours a day more to spend with the professors, get with tutors, etc. while I was actually in a law firm gaining real work experience.

    We had professors that gave no As, 1 A- and the rest C+s. We had some that gave no As at all. I got a C+ in con law 2, where 8 points out of 200 on my exam would have had me at a B+. The curve is so absurd and the professors are so full of themselves, it's really a crapshoot.

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  14. At least the salary seems a little more honest than the other schools. But you can make at least 50K with some undergrad programs. And only 73 out of 170 (or 43%) are in jobs that require a JD.

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  15. Nando - where do you get these disgusting toilet pictures anyhow? Maybe you should get into the septic business, probably make more in shit as opposed to shitLaw. I'm starting to think excrement may not be that bad after all.

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  16. @ 6:49 am,

    I write this blog in a sharp tone because too many JDs are strapped down with life-altering, soul-crushing debt, while the “professors” and administrators at these dumps make out like bandits. (How many TTT and TTTT grads frequently entertain suicidal thoughts and feelings of worthlessness – while the “professors” are sipping Merlot at some lame law school function?!?!) In the end, these people serve as confidence men – and women. These “institutions of higher education” seek to defraud students by gaining their confidence. This also happens to be the standard operating procedure for American business. If you or anyone expects me to tone down the “negativity,” don’t hold your breath.

    If reality offends you, then you need to grow up, 6:49. Law school is not the yellow-brick road to happiness. Also, we are all aware that working hard will only get one so far. Ninety percent of the class – including the potheads and alcoholics – are shooting for the top 10% and law review. Do you want to take a guess as to what percentage of the class can end up in the top decile?

    Along this vein, “networking” will only do so much. A law student of moderate means and no connections has one hell of an uphill battle when competing against people with strong family, political and business connections. The former must “make connections” while the latter simply can have daddy call in a favor. Is the hiring manager at a law firm going to hire someone that met a firm attorney at an SBA function, or will they hire the law student whose father is a local judge? This is not a law school hypothetical. This is real life.

    In sum, the kid with no connections typically does not speak the language of the upper classes and is not truly part of that culture. He NEEDS to excel academically, whereas the connected law student can sit back, sleep through boring-ass law school lectures, go drinking 5 nights a week, and still get interviews and offers. Don’t overlook the fact that legal employers prefer to hire people who speak, act, and think like them. I suppose you feel that such people “earned” these positions, right?

    http://lawschoolalmanac.blogspot.com/2008/01/law-school-endowments-2008.html

    “Parent institution or university system endowments for ABA approved law schools. Rankings broken out for private and public schools only, and by US News Tier, appear following the list of all schools.”

    We can see that Western New England College had an endowment of $48,692,000 – as of 2008. In reading the main entry, you have already seen the total compensation packages of some WNEC Sewer of Law “professors.” What is so sick about this commode is that it bills itself as providing opportunities for its students. Well, those “opportunities” come with a staggering price tag.

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  17. This blog is already a classic.

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  18. Keep on keeping it sharp Nando.

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  19. I'm lost. What is the meaning of beating up on this particular piece of shit law school? Can't you be happy that they admit to such shitty employment numbers and garbage salaries?

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  20. Nando,

    I just voted for third tier reality on the ABA's top 100 blog poll. I encourage you to follow the lead of first tier reality and BIDER and ask your readers to take the time to vote for the scamblogs. I wonder if the ABA would actually consider listing the scamblogs that make the top 100. Probably not, but worth a try. If their due dilligence track record is any indication, they likely wouldn't even take the time to see what the blogs are all about before publishing the list.

    Keep up the good work.

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  21. You have to wear the "right" tassles on your loafers too!

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  22. Nando, don't listen to the detractors that say your posting of toilet pictures somehow minimizes the seriousness and credibility of this blog. I personally see these schools as shit receptacles that processes shit with money (students) into useless shit (indebted students). These "schools" hide behind the corinthian pillars of justice but you and I know that there sole existence is to fleece this generation and the tax payer's of MONEY.

    Nando, you should check your IP traffic more often. I am sure many law school deans and administrators come here to see you call them out.

    ReplyDelete
  23. http://www.abanet.org/legaled/statistics/charts/stats%20-%201.pdf

    Let’s take a look at some numbers, provided by the ABA, on enrollment and degrees awarded from 1963-2008. We can see that 9,638 law degrees were awarded for the 1963-1964 school year. Total law school enrollment was 49,552 and there were 135 total law schools in the nation. (We can also see that there was a much higher rate of attrition among first-year law students back then.)

    For the 2008-2009 academic year, total JD enrollment was 152,033 at 200 ABA-approved law schools. These institutions pumped out 43,588 law graduates for this same year.

    In the span of 46 years:

    • American law school annual enrollment more than tripled
    • An additional 65 law schools opened their doors – for an 48% increase in the number of schools, i.e. 65/135
    • The number of annual degrees awarded increased by a factor of 4.52, i.e. 43,588/9,638
    • Law school tuition has skyrocketed
    • Employment prospects are dismal, as the lawyer job market is OVER-SATURATED

    http://www.infoplease.com/year/1963.html#axzz0ziiXsXSy

    According to this page, the population of the U.S. in 1963 stood at 189,241,798.

    http://www.infoplease.com/year/2008.html#axzz0ziiXsXSy

    The same site estimates that the U.S. population totaled 302 million people in 2008.

    According to these figures, our population increased by 112,758,202 people between 1963 and 2008. This represents a population increase in the amount of 59.58%, i.e. 112,758,202/189,241,798.

    http://www.keytlaw.com/blog/2010/08/law-grad-coffee-barista/

    Does anyone think that perhaps U.S. law schools are over-producing JDs and attorneys in this country?!?! This *might* explain why this 26-year-old lawyer is now serving coffee. Shannon Hodder graduated from Georgia State University – in the top half of her class. She now owes $60K in student loans, and makes $7.50 an hour as a barista!! She worked in the DA’s office during law school, and sent out more than one hundred resumes – resulting in one interview and no callbacks. As a licensed attorney, she also took part-time jobs and unpaid internships. She lives with her fiancé at her grandmother’s house. She now makes $12 an hour as a law clerk at 15 hours a week.

    I suppose the arrogant blowhard/moron at 6:49 am will misattribute Hodder’s failure to land a legal job on her “weak character”, “laziness” or other alleged personal defect.

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  24. Oh Colonel! My Colonel!
    My guiding light!

    Please go easy on 6:49 AM when he shows up at KFC for his first day of work in a couple of years.

    He thinks he is shooting for the stars right now, but he had bettter be nice to the people he meets on the way up, because, and we know the rest of the saying........

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  25. I finally read the WNEC statistics. This place is a complete crap hole and I'm not bragging cause I'm a TTT graduate. In any event, those WNEC professors do not deserve to be making that kind of money. It's absolutely ridiculous.

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  26. What is most telling from the statistics is that only FOUR (4) people out of the entire class of 180 worked for firms with 51 or more attorneys. That's should tell any prospective student that you better be prepared to go out on your own after graduation since biglaw (51+ attorney firms) shun this place like the plague. This place needs to close down right away.

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  27. I would think any Biglaw firm that hires out of WNE should put their malpractice carrier on notice because it sets up a nice negligent hire lawsuit for a disgruntled or dissatisfied client.

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  28. You guys are being hard on WNE. I believe it was a WNE student's experience that inspired Kurt Cobain from Nirvana to write and sing the song "Rape Me." After seeing WNE's tuition rates, I can see how it is possible to rape someone without rectal penetration.

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  29. Hey Nando,

    If you're going to be profiling the TTT'S of Massachusetts, don't leave out SuFFFolk law!

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  30. I agree too hard on WNE. Also what idiot is measuring the quality of law jobs by the # of attorney's in an office. I work in corporate law we always (as is the norm) have less than 50 attorneys in the office. I've worked at other places to and less than 50 attorneys in 1 location was the norm, and those jobs had great salaries. Oh maybe those who have never practiced. My 2 cents: One should only knock WNE if it doesn't fully disclose stats.

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  31. To the Asshole in NYC who is in charge of hiring people, you sir are the kind of person that makes anyone want to reconsider going to law school so they can practice law. What an arrogant post.

    Yeah I went to one of those shit schools that no one heard of or was laughed at and has been profiled on this blog. As someone who also hires legal grads and has been in the game for 15 plus years, if the day comes where I look at a candidates law school and make a decision about him or her when hiring solely on that, then I truly dont deserve my job.

    Yeah its tough to get a job and I would not advise going to a shitty school and paying full boat without something lined up via a connection, but folks do, and many of them are smart and more aware of the world then the arrogant SOBs you hire because of their school who cant function in the real world with day to day people. Maybe they dont have to, but who would want to work around those types.

    I know thats how it works in too many cases, but the arrogance of your posting is what gives lawyers and certain kinds of firms bad names to the general public. I am guessing you are such a blue blood that even someone outside of a handful of schools has no chance with your office. Thats fine and more power to you, but there is something that you are probably missing in so many ways. Your arrogance is pathetic and I hope you drown in one of those toilets.

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  32. Concerning grades, I attended a master's program back in the early 1990's and had a professor from the law school teach us a class of International Law. This professor had been at the law school forever. He graded everyone C+, which was not a passing grade for this master's program. The dean of the school asked him if he intended to fail everyone and he said that C+ was a good passing grade at the law school. After he was informed of the situation, he stated that everyone should just get a B+ instead, so our transcripts went from C+ to B+ as a result. I knew then that something was really wrong with law school grading. Concerning college tuition, I knew things were not right when as an undergrad working in the college president's office, I was asked to call all the loacl schools as a prospective student and find out what tuition and room/board was for the following year. I asked why my school would want this information and I found out that it was used to figure out what to charge next year, and to think that I thought tuition was a function of cost accounting of lights, teacher salary etc.

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  33. Did you write this because you know one of their professors is going to read it?

    Western New England College School of Law professor Bill Childs follows scam blogs but doesn’t take offense to their message. In fact, he welcomes it. “We obviously don’t think what we’re doing is a scam,” he said. But blog postings that present another side to the realities of law school and the legal industry shouldn’t be ignored, he said.

    http://www.ctlawtribune.com/getarticle.aspx?ID=38218

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  34. ^So because a single professor at a TTT tactitly approves of what the scambloggers are doing that means that his particular school should not be mentioned on the sites? The school is still a garbage heap.

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  35. I'm the "idiot" that PoorGrad at 6:32, supra, references. I didn't say that the "quality" of jobs was necessarily bad at firms with less the 50 attorneys, but it is nevertheless a measure of law school's ability to place graduates after graduation. If we go on the assumption that larger firms pay more, which I don't believe the majority of people reading this blog will dispute, and that the greatest concern of law graduates is paying off their student loans, then my feeling is that many graduates will readily take on jobs at BigLaw at least to pay down their debt. The fact that only 4 people out of 180 were found to be working at firms with greater than 50 attorneys speaks volumes about the school. I'm sorry if I offended you, but the school is a crap hole. It just can't compete with the Boston area schools in terms of prestige. How do I know this? I'm from the Boston area and WNEC does not hold much value from the perspective of employers. Sorry to break it to you. /s/ The Idiot.

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  36. They were also one of the schools reporting incorrect clerkship numbers to US News a year ago.

    "Western New England associate dean for external affairs Bill Childs later wrote on Western New England College School of Law Blawg: "We discovered that we made an entirely inadvertent error, reporting our overall clerkship employment rate (i.e., the percentage of our employed recent graduates who were working in any judicial clerkship) as being the same as our federal Article III clerkship rate."

    http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/north_dakota_law_dean_says_u.s._news_info_on_clerkships_is_wrong/

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  37. I went to this school and this blog is like 90% correct. Too many of my classmates entered this school thinking that a law degree automatically equals a prestigious law job. The ONLY reasons I attended WNEC were (1) my LSAT scores were poor; (2) they offered me a 50% scholarship; and (3) my father and uncle are partners in a law firm in my home state and I always knew I would work for them.

    Unless you have a guaranteed job with a family member after graduation or finish in the Top 15% of the class I wouldn't waste the time or money.

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  38. http://www.usnews.com/blogs/college-rankings-blog/2009/05/18/what-happened-with-brooklyn-law-school.html

    North Dakota, University of St. Thomas, and WNEC admit to “inadvertent errors.”

    http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/north_dakota_law_dean_says_u.s._news_info_on_clerkships_is_wrong/

    “We [USN&WR] have spoken to officials at Brooklyn Law School. They said that, as they have done in the past, they decided not to report data for their part-time program this year. The placement of the full-time student data into the combined student data fields was an error, they said. Brooklyn Law School also recently posted a statement on how it provided data to U.S. News:

    "[W]hen we completed the 2009 questionnaire, we reported the LSAT/GPA information about our full-time students. Consistent with prior practice, we left blank the questions about LSAT/GPA of part-time students. Following these two questions was a question that sought combined LSAT/GPA information for all entering students—full-time and part-time. In prior years, we had left that line blank. This year, however, we mistakenly inserted only the information provided for the previous two questions—the LSAT/GPA information for our full-time students. This error was completely inadvertent. There was no intention to hide the existence of our part-time program, as evidenced by substantial other information we provided about our part-time program elsewhere in the questionnaire."

    http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/2009/11/response-from-sj-quinney-college-of-law.html

    Here is the response I received from associate dean Reyes Aguilar and dean Hiram Chodosh at the 42nd-ranked University of Utah’s law school, regarding their published salary figures for recent JDs:

    “This is a response to your message emailed to us on November 18. We have been unable to reply due to one or both of us being away from the law school on business until Friday the 20th. Thank you for bringing to our attention the employment data contained on the Facts-at-a-Glance information sheet we have been distributing at law fairs earlier this fall. Your close reading of the material did identify an error we had missed in the production of the sheet. The salary statistics refer to employment data for 2008 graduates working in private law firms. The data we intended to place in that section of the fact sheet was data for all employed graduates of the Class of 2008 working in all sectors of employment that are reported to National Association for Law Placement. This was an inadvertent error on our part and we regret any inaccurate impressions it may have created. We will be posting a message on our website and sending email messages to candidates who visited our tables at law fairs acknowledging our mistake and correcting the information. The overall median salary for the Class of 2008 that should have been listed was $62,400 and the overall range was $25,000-215,000.”

    Does anyone see a pattern?! For $ome rea$on, these “errors” ALWAYS favor the law school!! Somehow, this goes against the law of averages. Also, if Bill Childs of WNEC School of Law follows this blog, he is free to post comments on this entry. We can then have an adult conversation on the topic.

    ReplyDelete
  39. http://abovethelaw.com/2010/09/judge-of-the-day-wesley-brown-hes-103/#more-36050

    We see a story of a 103 year old active judge, and of course apologist-to-the-power-structure David Lat is fawning over this man. (wonder if David realizes that Biglaw didn't want him as a dark-skinned minority with a flat nose representing its clients even if he does identify with T. Boone Pickens, Kissinger, Geithner, Mitt Romney, Warren Buffet.)

    ReplyDelete
  40. Challenging the integrity of a law school's employment statistics is one thing- Denigrading and disassembling the accomplishments of many is another. This blog is part interesting and part sad, because both "never beens" and elitists join to mock those graduates from lower-ranked law schools whom have diligently worked hard and acheived.
    Today, well compensated into-level legal jobs are certainly difficult to obtain. Naturally, many blame law schools--- we all remember the age-old excuse "it was the teacher's fault!." For many bloggers and posters, it would seem old habits die hard. But for those workers that continue to toil and roll with the punches, you will find success/ contentment will find you--- no matter what institution's name is placed on the top of your sheepskin.
    4

    ReplyDelete
  41. When your law diploma says 'Piece of Shit University' on it, what the fuck do you expect legal employers will do? Other than laugh their balls off. The school is so disgusting I think the author may have denigrated the toilet in the picture. Shame on you for stooping to this level and denigrating this toilet, which has relieved so many in its lifetime.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Colonel ... Colonel ... all this talk of toilets is making me hungry. I need some god damn chicken around here.

    ReplyDelete
  43. I am the poster that some immature peon referred to as "Asshole in NYC."

    I will not apologize for my earlier post. I did not make the rules for this profession. Clients are focused on hiring the best and the best often come from elite schools. Clients are not going to pay top dollar billable rates for graduates of 2nd, 3rd or 4th tier JD diploma mills. Many of the firms' clients often inquire about the educational pedigree of our attorneys. How do you think a client will react if he is told that his "bet the company" matter is being handled by a WNE grad? I can assure you the client will have a puzzled look, fire us and retain another firm. Law students seem to think that all JDs are created equal. I have heard it all before: "But our school uses the same textbooks as Harvard Law School," "My civ pro professor graduated from Stanford Law School and clerked for Sandra Day O'Connor, or the timeless gem "at the end of the day I have the same law license as a Yale Law School grad." Wake up kids, you are not in the same league. You could not get into Harvard or Yale and the 3rd or 4th tier school that opened its arms to you only took you in because you came with federal student loan money. Do you really think you will become the next F. Lee Bailey?

    Personally I don't hire someone automatically because they attended an elite school. Sometimes elite schools have legacy or AA admits (e.g., GWB, Obama) that are not deserving of the elite degree. These candidates slip through the cracks and I am vigilant in identifying and disqualifying median and below median applicants from elite schools. Don't hate me, I did not write the rules to this game.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Rape me
    Rape me, my friend
    Rape me
    Rape me again

    I'm not the only one .IIIII [3x]
    I'm not the only one...

    Hate me
    Do it and do it again
    Waste me
    Rape me, my friend

    I'm not the only one.IIIII [3x]
    I'm not the only one...

    My favorite inside source
    I'll kiss your open sores
    I appreciate your concern
    You're gonna stink and burn

    Rape me
    Rape me, my friend
    Rape me
    Rape me, again

    I'm not the only one, IIIII [3x]
    I'm not the only one..

    Rape me! (Rape me!)[8x]
    Rape me!

    Artist: Nirvana
    Inspiration: WNEC law school?

    ReplyDelete
  45. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a fat, ugly pig. Same for WNEC. I echo the sentiments of the "asshole." We didn't make the rules. If I did, I would be a partner in BigLaw with an assortment of knob-polishing eye candy. Ah ... we can dream though...

    ReplyDelete
  46. To the poster from NY- can you reveal your name and law firm so we can check and see if all of the lawyers there are from harvard, yale, chicago???? talk about transparency!

    ReplyDelete
  47. To the man who didn't make the rules . . . it's WNEC, as in Western New England Colelge not WNE. You would not refer to Boston College as simply Boston, would you?

    ReplyDelete
  48. I SALUTE the good Colonel, and all other fellow-travelers on this, the growing, burgeoning, scamblog movement.

    Three cheers! Huzzah!

    ReplyDelete
  49. Thanks for pointing that out 1:35. Too bad it doesn't change the fact that this "school" is a steaming pile of shit. Nor does it change the fact that the students who attend this shithole have nothing to look forward to after graduation except for a lifetime of soul-crushing debt and misery. I wonder why the poster didn't know the precise name of this "institution." Oh wait, I know, it's probably because this "school" carries absolutely zero respect in the legal community. The dean and "professors" thank you for your donation.

    ReplyDelete
  50. TO 12:39:

    I admire your honesty, and you merely state what I have always suspected all along.

    I was really that dumb back when I enrolled in Touro in 1992. Really that Naive. I really thought that a JD is a JD, and the school was a secondary consideration once one got working for a few years.

    It is like some one erroneously told me: "What do they call you if you were at the bottome of the class?
    The answer was "Counseler" So I figured I would be all right after school. It was all faith based, and I took out the student loans based on faith, and trust in the school

    Today I am close to 300 grand in debt.
    I couldn't pass the bar exam.

    To put it bluntly, I was shocked at all of the information I had to learn for the bar Exam, and I kept telling myself, why didn't they teach me this at Touro?

    I felt I was to blame.
    I literally sat for 2 straight hours on essay day one afternoon in the Javits Center, and wrote absolutely nothing.

    Too ashamed to get up and walk out.

    My student loans have been bought and sold so many times over the years, and I never could make enough money to make the payments.

    So I kept deferring and deferring.
    Economic hardship etc.

    You describe pretty well the status of a 4th tier graduate in the legal job market.

    But you might be interested in knowing that the TOuro degree made me unemployable in non-legal fields.

    I almost landed a job as an insurance claims adjustor for Allstate, but was finally told in the end I was "overqualified."

    Another recruiter told me that he avoids lawers becfause he thought they are advesarial by nature, and would just cause trouble.

    Today I paint houses for a living.
    I had to do something, because I had to eat.

    But when I open a paint can, at least I know where I stand.
    That can of paint doesn't lie to me. it is an honest to goodness can of paint, and the work is what it is as well.

    I haven't spoken about Touro in about ten years, or mentioned the JD from there to too many people. But only recently, with my discovery of these blogs, have I started to share my story.

    Hell, I don't think blogging even existed when I was going to Touro.

    And it has only been in the past couple of years that people have started to call Law School a Scam. I attribute that to wild Student Debt.


    I distinctly remember one Professor telling a class at orientation that Law is one of the highest paying professions on average.
    I really took her words to heart.
    I knew nothing about law. Had no relatives or friends that were lawyers.

    I could go on and on.
    How I wish I never went there.

    ReplyDelete
  51. To the legal employer, thank you for your brutal honesty. Such insight from a hiring attorney benefits all of us, immediately and in the long run. While this man’s comments may come across as elitist to some people, it is MUCH better to hear the truth now than after you have taken out $120K in non-dischargeable student loans. If you do not have the right credentials, i.e. elite law school and/or law review, or STRONG family, business and political connections before going to law school – then you are in for a rude awakening.

    The cost of “legal education” simply does not justify taking this risk. When I hear “law professors” and industry shills say that law school is somewhat of a risk, I am reminded of “Pascal’s Wager.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

    Blaise Pascal was a mathematician, inventor and scientist who renounced a life of science for one of faith. His reasoning: “Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.”

    You sometimes see such “reasoning” when economists or politicians argue that we should spend $25 million on program X. “If it succeeds, we can open the door for profitable industry. If it fails, the state is only out $25 million.”

    However, the law school gamble is a hell of a lot riskier than Pascal’s Wager for the following reasons: (a) law school is an expensive proposition; (b) the legal job market is FLOODED - and has been so for years; (c) non-legal employers are averse to hiring JDs, for various reasons; and, most importantly, (d) student debt is non-dischargeable, i.e. you are stuck with this debt and cannot walk away from it - as you can with a business venture, credit card debt or a mortgage.

    For your reading pleasure, here is the Lemming’s Wager:

    If you win, you take out $150K to land a job making $160K for a few years. (If you don’t make partner, you will also be tossed into the trash heap – armed with no real legal skills; certainly not any that would make you an attractive candidate for a midlaw or toiletlaw firm.) If you lose, you lose your future.

    Sounds like a hell of a bet, doesn’t it?

    http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/you-chose-law-school-reason

    Plus, when these students graduate from law school, the “professors” and shills then blame the victim, i.e. “You knew – or should have known – the risk involved in this decision. We only teach you the law. That is our sole mission.” (Yeah, that and sentencing an entire generation to a lifetime of debt servitude, misery and mental anguish – so that you “academics” can make six figures.)

    ReplyDelete
  52. I went to this school on a half-scholarship. I graduated in the top 10% of my class and breezed through my 3L year with a six-figgie offer from a big law firm, where I'm still gainfully employed.

    I'm the first lawyer in my family, and I proudly display my B.A. from a liberal arts college next to my WNEC J.D. and law review certificate.

    I guess I'm just better than you.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Hi Nando:

    Here is a little poem I have made up about the whole situation. A little Chestnut.

    Bascally, it is about an ex-law student that sticks a shotgun in his mouth and blows his head off because he is trapped with Student Loan debt.

    I call it the "Giggly Poem" I have copyrighted it. It is a poem. An artistic expression, and nothing more.

    Here Goes:



    THE
    GIGGLY POEM©

    Little Jack Horner
    Backed into a corner

    He moans and he groans about student loans
    And compounded interest,
    (It just made them bigger :)

    There’s no jobs in Law,
    So he’s stuffing his maw
    with a smelly Benelli
    ......go figure?

    Oh! that Nasty old blastey ol’shotgun!
    With squiggly, wiggly toes on the trigger

    You silly old billy old boy!
    EVERYONE knows a guns not a toy, but….

    BLAM! WHAM!
    CUSTARD AND JAM!

    messy, messy, mop it up.
    messy, messy,
    mop…....it……. up :(

    ReplyDelete
  54. WNEC School of Law < Whale ShitSeptember 17, 2010 at 3:27 PM

    3:14, go suck a bag of dicks. While you are patting yourself on the back for your piece of shit law degree, e.g. WNEC JD next to your shitty BA, I will be knocking back a few beers in a few hours and then bang my non-JD girlfriend. Do you know how many of your fmr classmates landed decent legal employment?

    ReplyDelete
  55. I also went to WNEC on scholarship. From what I understood, about 70% of the students went there on scholarships. Mine covered about 2/3 of my tuition.

    It was tough to get a job after I graduated law school, but the same was true for everyone who graduated last year. Even though I'm the first college grad in my family, I'm working at a small firm and doing pretty well.

    No one ever really cared what school I went to, just my GPA and ranking.

    ReplyDelete
  56. 3:37:

    Thanks for helping our cause.

    Listen to what you just said:
    A Scholarship on your resume with a huge 2/3 of tuition paid for and you still had it "tough" finding a job.

    Imagine how hard it was for the rest of the peanut gallery from your school.

    People wake up! The Scholarship kids at these crappy schools are the "Ringers".

    The ringers keep the lower tier schools alive and able to cobble together the stats.

    What ringer wouldn't refuse a scholarship and a possible guarantee of employment?

    Every lower tier school has them.

    They start their first day ahead of the game.

    They end up as inhumane and dishonest as 3:37.

    Really, 70% on scholarship?

    ReplyDelete
  57. A mere 60% of WNEC law students are on scholarship. (http://www1.law.wnec.edu/prospective/index.cfm?selection=doc.313)

    ReplyDelete
  58. The deal with law is that it is NOT a profession.

    Professions self-regulate. That's why there is no surplus of M.D.'s, D.O.'s, D.D.S.'s, B.S.N.'s, Physician's Assistants, etc. It takes scarce resources (i.e., a practitioner's valuable time)to take the kids on morning rounds at a teaching hospital, for example. They are NOT going to spend valuable time instructing students who will not be actually practicing. The economics won't allow the misallocation. Whereas, in law school, what do they really teach you? Some 200-year-old cases that you can go to the library and read about yourself? There are no truly scarce resources involved; therefore, the market will bear what would otherwise be a gross misallocation of "resources" to future non-practitioners and latte-servers. They offer nothing, they do not teach practice or anything else of real value, so the surplus is tolerable.

    Throw federal money in at the demand end, and you've got yourself a real shitstorm. A bubble of monstrous proportions.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Where is Colonel Sanders when we really need him now?

    ReplyDelete
  60. "The ringers keep the lower tier schools alive and able to cobble together the stats."

    Believe it or not, there are such "ringers" even at borderline T1 schools. It's really all part of the screwjob if you think about.

    ReplyDelete
  61. This is the NYC legal employer again.

    To those who have thanked me for my brutal honesty: you're welcome. Every year I receive resumes from outlier T14 (I am looking at you Duke, Cornell, Northwestern and G-Town), other T1, 2nd, 3rd and 4th tier law schools that go directly in the trash bin. Honestly, not only are these kids wasting time and money, but they are also contibuting to the Amazonian deforestation. The resumes I receive in any given recruitment period must measure a tenth of a metric ton.

    I think the bar's character and fitness committees should start questioning the financial wisdom of law grads that take six figures in loans to attend an unreknowned law school to obtain a worthless diploma. Are these kids showing any sound judgment or are they acting recklessly with their own futures and money? I say the latter. And these are "lawyers" in the making that are to be trusted with multi-million dollar sensitive matters? I say let these grads fend for themselves in the shitlaw league chasing after ambulances and destitute clients that don't pay. They can devour each other like sharks in blood infested waters while the truly diligent and elite are rewarded for their august accomplishments.

    I don't know where these kids get the idea that a JD equals a life of riches. Even HYS attorneys have to go through a more rigorous process to make the soon becoming illusory equity partner title. If you are a college graduate thinking about going to law school, listen to this blogger's advice stated on the top of this page. You will have a better chance of making more money buying $150K of scratch off lottery tickets than getting a worthless JD from a diploma mill. And to those defenders of the lower tiered schools, yes maybe a handful of students make it but would you throw yourself in shark infested waters if you had a 5% chance of survival?

    ReplyDelete
  62. Asshole in NYC:
    The richest US lawyer is Joseph Jamail, who's a Texas PI lawyer. Gerald Hosier litigated billions (on 40% contingeny) in patent cases and is a graduate of DePaul (featured on this site), Peter Angelos has also moved billions in contingency after graduating from Baltimore law school. I could go on and on.

    They all litigated against, and defeated, big firm lawyers. I've litigated against big firms as well. Their 4 attorney practice groups litigating against us didn't do any thing fantastic that we didn't expect.

    BigLaw works like this: A big corporation gets sued. The GC needs to hire a firm. If he hires an unknown firm and the case goes badly, the CEO will say "You hired some unknown firm and got a $100 judgment against us? What were you thinking". If the GC hires "the best" and loses, the GC will say "What more could I do? I hired the best! We got a $100 judgment because you infringed the patent/ violated antitrust law, etc. What more could I have done?" So biglaw is a giant CYA for the GC.

    1,000 attorney firms don't defend lawsuits. 10 attorney practice groups, within 1,000 attorney firms, defend them. Why don't the 10 attorney groups just form their own firm? The GCs wouldn't hire a 10 attorney firm. So they just pick up their book of business and jump from big firm to big firm; but its all a big fascade. The big firm is a franchise for the various practice groups like Century 21 is a franchise for independent real estate brokerages.

    It is true that to join the club you have to have to get a piece of paper from the right school. But don't tell me with a straight face that you learn so much more, reading the same case books, at one law school but not at another. Frankly, you don't learn much of anything in law school.

    Hey NYC Asshole: the investment bankers and private equity men that you serve when they snap their fingers are worth at least 10-100 times what you are. The distance between them and you is greater than the distance between you and small lawyers. Could you grace us with a follow up post about how I-bankers an PE men are vastly more intelligent than big firm lawyers? They do at least know something about math and business.

    ReplyDelete
  63. I meant to say $100 million dollar judgment in the above post. Getting a $100 judgment would against you would count as a victory.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Regardless of how many millions an exceptional PI lawyer makes, he is still mired in shitlaw and will never be prestigious. Case in point, John Edwards, who is such a rich classy guy for a TTT grad.

    The poster at 8:46PM is grasping at straws. Yes there are some lucky PI lawyers that get the classic quadripelgic injury case that rakes 7 figures and the attorney gets a third off of the first $500K and then 25% off of the rest. However, getting such a case is harder than winning the lottery. TTT law schools love to use these PI lawyers as examples of what students can aspire to. Joseph Jamail may be a millionaire, but for all his money he won't be able to buy membership into the Yale Club. For all his money, at best, he is King of shitlaw. And students that attend commodes like WNEC can only aspire to be subjects or princes of shitlaw while chained to Queen Sallie Mae. What a great deal.

    ReplyDelete
  65. To 6:26 PM.

    Thank you, and thank you again for being honest.
    You may have saved a few lives tonight.

    I wish someone like you was there to talk to me before I enrolled in a T4 school 18 years ago.

    I hope you stick around and become a regular on this blog.

    I'm going to get me some of those scratch off lottery tickets today. Even the losers get lucky sometimes.

    Maybe crapping out of law was a true blessing for me after all.

    ReplyDelete
  66. @8:46: NYC Asshole said that Ivy lawyers learn massively more things, from the same case books,than TTT lawyers. I gave a number of examples showing that you don't learn magic tricks at the Ivies. It is just that, you need the right piece of paper to join the club in order to learn how to play the game; though a few have taught themselves the game from the outside.

    Regarding "prestige". There is no "prestige" in law except money. I've never heard of someone with a big book of business trying to lateral in to a big firm and then hearing "it looks like 20 years ago you graduated from TTT, take your $10M book and go somewhere elsewhere." LOL

    In my examples, Jamail won his billions from business litigation and Hosier from patent litigation. Both are high "prestige" areas, not that any one cares, because the entail large amounts of money.

    "Prestige" snobiness is a cult that destroys young lawyers. If you don't get into the right college frat, do you just accept that you are a nerd and give up, or do you go and aggressively chase college women as an independent? If you didn't get into the club, find a different strategy to make money.

    ReplyDelete
  67. A few thoughts about statistics and lottery tickets: When you buy a lottery ticket you have a 1x10^6 chance of winning. If you buy a ticket every day, your chances do NOT multiply.

    When you chart a career path, you make numerous small decisions and take numerous small risks over time. These can add up into you having achieved something improbable. It is false reasoning to say that only 1% of lawyers become succesfuly therefore I have a 1% chance of becoming succesful.

    People don't sit in their offices and wait for a big PI case. They spend years working on smaller cases and becoming the best lawyers that they can be. Being great isn't enough, you also need to think up detailed marketing strategies.

    PI is only one area of law. If you don't like it (its "shitlaw") pick another. You are foreclosed from represinging F500 companies because of the GC's CYA effect, described above. The rest of the market is yours.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Would you rather hear brutal honesty from a hiring attorney BEFORE you take out $130K in non-dischargeable loans to attend a toilet law school, or would you rather proceed in your state of ignorance? Honestly, this man is performing a public service. It will not affect his job, salary, or lifestyle if he continues to receive 3,000 resumes in a hiring cycle.

    Also, I should inform the readers of this blog that it has received more than 60 visitors from Western New England College in the last 2 days. This site has also had many visitors from the Springfield, MA area in the last two days. Apparently, these TTTT grads, students, and possibly faculty members feel the need to attack the messenger - for simply stating the ugly realities of this industry.

    http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202472036425&Law_Schools_Flamed_in_Growing_Number_of_Graduates_Scam_Blogs

    It is also quite telling that Bill Childs, faculty member at WNEC School of Law admits to following these blogs but has yet to post a comment on this blog entry - even after I invited/encouraged him to do so. The fact remains that a law degree from a TTTT limits one's future - as being strapped down with $120K in student loans and facing pathetic job prospects does not bode well for one's success.

    ReplyDelete
  69. I have a two questions,and I know I am off topic.

    I will post the first one here, and the second in a different post.

    But no seems to know the answer to these questions, but I am awake nights thinking and worrying myself sick over them, and I wonder if any lawyers reading this does.

    I am not asking for free advice, just a referral to someone who can provide the answer.

    I am already buried in massive student loan debt. That is a given. I am a fool for haveing gone to a tier 4 school and I take all the blame,and blame myself the hardest.. My future, whatever is left of it, looks pretty grim.

    I am 45 years old, and am thinking about buying life insurance.

    But if I die, and there is a payout, will the beneficiary be able to collect, or will the current owner of my student loans, the Federal Government (Direct Loans)swoop in and claim it all, or part of the money?

    If so, why bother to buy the life insurance in the first place?

    I have no assets, and do not want to be a burden on my family for the cost of a burial at least.

    ReplyDelete
  70. My second question is frankly making me quite paranoid. It needs to be seriously discussed, and no one has an answer either.

    The question is: Will I go to Prison in 20 years because of my student debt?

    Here is how I envision it will happen:

    I will be 75 years old. My loan, if I never pay it off or at least 2/3 of it off, will still be quite large.

    The loan will be "Abated" (the term of art that seems to be in use now)

    Then I will be taxed on the abated amount.

    The IRS will be involved at that point, and will pursue me for the money.

    I I cannot pay, I go to jail. Because that is what the IRS does, isn't it?

    Am I crazy for thinking this?

    ReplyDelete
  71. @7:13: I'm not an expert at this, but I think that if the policy declares your family as a beneficiary, it will escape probate and your creditors cannot touch it. You should talk to a wills and trust / estate lawyer to be sure. You can also talk to bankruptcy attorney. If it's not as easy as I said, there's probably a way to structure what you're trying to do. Any estate lawyer (just find one from the internet) should know the answer.

    I'm sorry for your situation. Good luck to you.

    ReplyDelete
  72. I'm 7:43

    Correction, I will be 65 years old. I flubbed it.

    70 years old if the abatement term is 25 years. I said 20 years, but am not sure.

    To 7:46:

    Thanks. I have learned to appreciate the simple things in life.

    But The Federal Gov't has extraordinary collection power as we all know, and has no problem knocking down all the barriers in their efforts to collect.

    That is why I wouldn't put it past them to find a way grab life insurance money too.

    Bury it in a 10 thousand page bill or something.

    Call it paranoia.

    ReplyDelete
  73. You cannot go to jail for not paying an IRS lien. They will take all of your property, but you can't go to jail for not paying what you don't have.

    People go to jail for making false statements to the IRS (hiding income or making fraudulent deductions) but not for failure to pay the debt.

    BTW, chill out. The recession will end! Nando is right about law schools lying and there being an oversupply; but the recession is still part of it. I have a good friend who was a cop for 20 years and attended college and then law school on the side. He was an assistant state's attorney for a few years and then started his own practice. He does pretty well.

    Nando's probably right about the big picture, but don't get so despondent about your individual case.

    ReplyDelete
  74. This is the Colonel making another appearance. Goddamn, this article got a ton of comments. Oh well. Pay no attention to the negative person who authored this thing, Western New England law college students. Remember my commitment to hire dedicated, hard-wurkin’ TTT grads to man the deep fryers and push out the lovely orders of mashed taters, good ole’ American cole slaw, da heavenly biscuits and such? Remember that?

    Good, now relax and watch some good ole’ ’merican college football today. Go grtab yourself some chicken stackers (I get mad at my franchisees for not marketing this simple yet savory menu item more aggressively), some tasty tater fries, and wash that down with a 44-oz soda. (If ya want Coke products, you’ll jus’ hafta take yer raggedy ass somewhere else, thank you very much. ) Anyway, watch Georgia-Arkansas. That game promises to be a real slobberknocker. Watch out for themn Razorbacks, boy. I tell you, as one who practiced law in Little Rock, that the fightin’ spirit in these down home country boys is enough to make you think twice about messin’ with any of ‘em. Get the idea? What are you doin’ reading this anyway? The game is already in the second quarter!

    Then go watch the Florida Gators battle the Tennessee Vols on CBS with a sweet, tender 20 piece family bucket of heavenly bliss. While your at it, could you lay down a few bucks on the Gators covering the spread, for the old Colonel? Seems I forgot to call my bookie. Knock back some tall boys while your at it. ‘Course we don’t carry such items in our locations. Anyway, the point is don’t let the fact that the legal job market sucks elephant balls get you down.

    Serioously, make this a day for yerself and yer buddies. Relax. Enjoy some heavenly biscuits wit some friends. Lounge around. Veg out, and watch some college ball today. Tell your wife or baby’s mama that you are busy, and that ya can’t be bothered to watch the kids today. Honestly, can’t the little bastards watch themselves nowadays, anyway? Sumbitch, that gets my blood boilin’. These sissies need a helmet to ride a bike in their own driveway. And if 5 year-old Taylor is out of mommy’s sight for 5 minutes, these sick parents feel the need to isse an Amber Alert. No, Taylor isn’t abducted, mommy. She’s taking a healthy dump, after you feed her at one o’ my restaurants earlier. Now, where’d I put that chicken wing I was chowing on earlier? Take care, kids. Eat more chicken, taters and biscuits. Enjoy the day and don’t let the negativity get you down.

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  75. @922:

    With all due respect, were in a depression and the early stages at that. Hope is a great thing, but false hope can leave people unprepared(see going to law school)

    People need to learn how to run their own biz in this new economic paradigm. I worked for different dad and PDA in law school. It's the exception to get those jobs not the rule

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  76. Sorry PDs and DAs stupid I phone

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  77. Colonel Sanders you are my leader!

    I just turned on the Florida Vs Tennessee game.
    Got my tall boys nice and chilly.
    During commercials I might switch over to TCM. John Wayne and Lauren Bacall in a movie called Blood Alley (1955)
    Tell me if Lauren Bacall isn't the most beautiful woman that has ever lived?
    Bogie had excellent taste.

    TO 9:22AM: I'm relieved by what you have told me. I'll try not to worry. My loan is nearing 300 grand.

    But like the Old Man in Hemingway's novel, I'll put my head on the pillow and dream about the Lions.

    Thanks for the patience with the digression Nando.

    You are the Man!

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  78. Colonel Sanders, can a WNEC grad, top 5%, law review, apply for head fryer position and, if so, how many years before he can apply for asst. manager of a KFC (Kitchen Fresh Chicken) franchise? Is there a student loan reimbursement benefit offered to entry level employees?

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  79. Does WNEC have an international law program? I checked out Touro's international law program but I am not interested in obtaining a JD and becoming a doc review monkey working in Mumbai, India for a few rupees a day.

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  80. could someone please explain to me what a 'slobberknocker' is. Is that an item on the KFC value menu?

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  81. I don't know if you guys have heard the breaking news, but it just came in over the wire a few moments ago... Sallie Mae is about to announce a joint venture with KFC so that KFC employees can have their minimum-wage paychecks directly deposited in Sallie Mae's account to pay off law school loans. The name of the program is the "Barrister Biscuits and Cole Slaw Reduced Salary Arrangement".

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  82. To 1:33.

    I think that it is all over now in the 4th for Tennessee. So maybe it is a slobberknocker for the Gators. In an amazing stadium sea of yellow.

    But the game is not over. So anything can happen.

    But Seriously though, today is a big news day for Sallie Mae too. Bought up a bunch of loans.
    Check it out.

    Al Lord is my Lord and your Lord. He runs the world I think. Amazing fellow. So resiliant.


    It is such a mysterious, and phantom industry.

    Can anyone of you lawyers out there really explain it?

    I challenge any law professor to come up with a true comprehensive guide to the history of student loans. And I mean keeping track and explaining all of the history and selling and reselling etc.

    Loans bought and sold. Federal. Private. Service divisions, collection agencys. Biting the apple twice. Etc. Etc.

    Like in Steinbeck's the Grapes of Wrath, it was the banking "Monster" that kicked all of the people off of their land, and sent them on the road after the dustbowl tragedy.

    It is that same Monster that is destroying the lives of so many student loan debtors.

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  83. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/The-Student-Loan-Corporation-bw-2386269840.html?x=0&.v=1

    Look at how Citibank views the student loan business.

    “STAMFORD, Conn.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--The Student Loan Corporation (NYSE:STU - News), a subsidiary of Citibank, N.A., and a leading originator and servicer of student loans, announced that The Student Loan Corporation (“SLC”) and Discover Financial Services (“Discover”) have entered into a definitive agreement for Discover to acquire SLC, and thereby become the owner of its private student loan business as well as $4 billon of its private student loans. Separately and immediately prior to the transaction, (i) SLM Corporation (“Sallie Mae”) will acquire from SLC $28 billion of securitized federal student loans and related assets and (ii) Citi will acquire from SLC certain federal and private student loans and other assets totaling $8.7 billion. Upon the closing of the transactions described above, shareholders of SLC will receive $30 per share."

    http://proactiveinvestors.com/companies/news/8506/sallie-mae-buys-28-billion-of-student-loans-from-student-loan-corporation-8506.html

    “SLM Corporation (NYSE: SLM), commonly known as Sallie Mae, announced today that it has reached an agreement to purchase $28 billion of securitized federal student loans and related assets from The Student Loan Corporation (SLC) (NYSE: STU), a subsidiary of Citibank, for $1.2 billion in cash.

    The assets purchased include the residual interest in 13 of SLC’s 14 Federal Family Education Loan Program (FFELP) loan securitizations and its interest in SLC's loan related to the U.S. Department of Education’s Straight-A Funding asset-backed commercial paper conduit.

    The transaction also includes the right to service these assets and administer the securitization trusts.

    Following the transaction, Sallie Mae will manage or service approximately $200 billion in federal student loans.”

    Everything now is a commodity. Just look at mortgages; once the transaction/sale of the home is complete, the closing bank then sells the loan to another bank.

    A few weeks ago, I was at a small party and I met a man who is a vice president of some division at a local Sallie Mae branch. He told us that SLM was looking at purchasing $80 billion in student loans. He also said that Utah Higher Education Assistance Authority and Pennsylvania Higher Education Assistance Agency were looking to get out of this business. Apparently, they are not able to turn as much profit as they want. WE CAN ALREADY SEE THAT CITIBANK LARGELY WANTS OUT OF THIS SECTOR.

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  84. JD Painter guy here:

    Can pictures be posted?

    Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.

    I have a scanned picture of a recent student loan statement summary of mine, showing $271,928.81 as the grand total that I owe, with a 8.250% fixed interest rate.

    I also have a tape recording of a conversation with a private collection agency that took place last year.

    I did it with an old fashioned tape recorder, and a cheap suction cup device stuck to my cell phone, that I bought at Radio Shack.

    It has to be heard to be believed. The conversation was all very soothing and surreal, and the collection agency made 10 thousand dollars for the effort (which was added to the loan balance)

    I have later read that some of these collection entitys are owned by Sallie Mae, and that Sallie Mae gets more money, or a second bite at the apple that way.

    I have also read that default is encouraged because Sallie Mae gets more instant money that way in penaltys and fees.

    From taxpayer dollars.

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  85. JD painter, contact me at nando9936@yahoo.com. I will be happy to talk to you about this outrageous situation.

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  86. Here is the reality that law students and OLs fail to appreciate or acknowledge. In 1998, the banking lobby scored a major victory in getting Congress to include subsection 8 to section 523(a) of title 11 of the United States Code. Student loans became non-dischargeable in bankruptcy proceedings, of course if you proved undue hardship, you could still get them discharged. As someone who has researched this issue, proving undue hardship is almost impossible. You have to be a vegetable or a quadriplegic to qualify. In 2005, the banking lobby scored another major victory when private loans were conferred with the protection of non-discharegability when the loan was procured for educational purposes.

    Make no mistake, student loans are the best investment the banks can count on since the debt cannot be discharged. Banks can tack on penalties and fees and you cannot discharge them. And the universities are in bed with the banks. Just take a look at this article I found today:

    http://www.source.ly/10ySY

    Colleges and law schools are selling a pipe dream, telling kids they can become rich lawyers. Instead folks like Al Lord, CEO of Sallie Mae, will become richer at the expense of an indentured servitude class of educated people holding worthless degrees. It is really sad how these kids are getting taken by this legally sanctioned racket.

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  87. Nando. You provide an important service. Keep it up. I sometimes post ideas here to cheer up new grads, and give advice to help with their careers, but I agree with your central premise that you need excellent credentials, or family connections, to make it worthwhile.

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  88. The education at WNE was of good quality. I graduated in the early 2000's and have made over six figures 5 years in a row. The asshole from NY is typical. In NY, the works sucks and so does the quality of life so you have stupid miserable assholes working there whose whole identity is wrapped up in the fact that they live in work in NY. Anyone who believes in the ranking system is a fool, it is unscientific. The problem nationally is that there are too many schools, lawyers, unreliable employment stats and not enough jobs for all who seek them. There is a bank/gevernemnt/school complex that is totally corrupt. It is a tragedy for the thousands that wind up as debt slaves.

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  89. Billing Affecting Private Educational Loans

    Bankruptcy

    Since 2005, for any qualified education loan to be discharged in bankruptcy, the debtor must prove that failure to discharge would impose an undue hardship

    Private Student Loan Bankruptcy Fairness Act (HR 5043) would make all educational loans –other than those made or insured by a governmental unit, made under a program funded in whole or part by a governmental unit, or under any program where substantially all the funds are provided by a non-profit institution –dischargeable like any consumer loan.

    Fairness for Struggling Students Act (S 3219) –The undue hardship exception is limited to loans made or insured by a governmental unit or made under a program funded in whole or in part by a governmental unit.

    Swamp your Congressmen with calls supporting these bills.

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  90. Letter to Michelle Obama:

    I heard in the news lately that you are not too thrilled with being First Lady.

    I really don't blame you. Maybe it is boring.

    Sometimes a hobby can help ease the boredom.

    A good hobby would be to follow this blog.

    After all, you went to Law School too.

    Your husband might be interested as well, but he is probably too busy rearranging the deck chairs on the sinking Titanic.

    Sincerely,

    (Forget who or what I am supposed to be)

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  91. So, in the light of the news over the weekend, what about it all you Law School Professor Geniuses?

    Explain the whole history of the student loan situation now.

    Really try to explain where we, the student and teacher have all been, and where we are all going now. Where all of this debt is headed?

    Who is responsible to whom?

    Somebody had better answer this question.
    To not answer it amounts to gross negligence in a way.

    It looks really bad for the Law Schools if no one steps forward and tries to explain the genesis of Student Loans, and where they have been, and where they are going.

    All I hear is silence. A lot of big talk a few days ago about other issues.

    That tells me that even all 4 levels of Law Schools don't completely understand the "Phantom Industry" of Student Loans, or at least are reluctant to discuss it.

    I can say I honestly I don't, and I was at the bottom of the class in a tier 4 Law School.

    This silence is really bad for the Law School cause.

    Some faculty big shot ought to come forth at this point.
    Explain where they stand in relation to their leader, Al Lord and Co. and today's news that even admits the situation is very complex.

    Nando has the IP adresses of the people that check in.

    Really, where is a Tamanahana when we need him?

    Silence, and the clock is ticking.

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  92. JD Painter - I just wanted to point out that your spasmodic unintelligible ramblings suggest that you have been huffing paint fumes your entire life.

    Keep up the good work Nando.

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  93. Painter guy here.

    Just the Painter Guy with no JD, because that dubious degree has no application to my life now.

    This is my last post. It is better to just not talk about these things.

    Yes, thousands of hours of chemicals and fumes and dust ingested. But that is part of the job.

    Be very careful if you ever find yourself working with ladders and scaffolds. Safety first.

    And ten inch wide spackle knives become sharp as a razor after many weeks of use. It’s a catch22, because the sharper they are, the better they lay off the spackle. I thought I sliced the tip of my pinkey off two years ago, but it turned out to be just a deep gash. 4 stitches did the trick, and I was lucky It did not go deep enough to cut a nerve.

    I apologize for the ramblings, and I guess I do sound cracked after the stress and strain of 14 years of watching my loans quadruple, and being unable to prevent it. The perplexity over the whole job search situation. Many pre-dawn hours discussing the student loan debt with my ex-wife, and my constant assurances that everything will be all right because I got a lot of resumes out there and one of them is going to “Hit”

    But many of you kids will probably pass 300 grand in a lot less time, because you are coming out of Law School with almost twice the debt that I started with.

    So if anyone out there is thinking of going to a Lower tier Law school, the choice is yours.
    If you insist on going, don’t ever, ever take out student loans.

    If you don’t have the money. Don’t go.

    But if you do have the money, and you insist on going, you had better make absolutely sure there is a job waiting for you at the end.

    At the graduation ceremony for Touro, I distinctly remember some of the graduates going up on the stage to be greeted by a family member, whose name was announced, like “Judge so and so”, or the chairman of this or that or the friggin’ mayor of whatever.

    I didn’t think much of that at the time, but it stands out in my memory now.

    One of the worst things about getting older is remembering what it was like when you were young. I was in my 20’s and full of hope and optimism for the future. My possible pasts “flutter behind me” now.

    What is surprising about Nando and the other bloggers is how quickly they have caught on so soon after graduation. They fortell a fate of unemployment and debt that I have already lived through.

    God how I wish I never went to that horrible place.

    PS- regards to the Colonel

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  94. Dear "WNEC School of Law < Whale Sh*t":

    This is 3:00 (although I believe you mistook me for 3:14). My apologies for not responding to your response to my post earlier, I was busy enjoying my weekend (with my non-J.D. boyfriend and some microbrews--sounds like we had similar Friday nights!).

    To clarify, I wasn't patting myself on the back for my J.D. I was patting myself on the back for my success against what you perceive as "the odds." I just wanted to counter the theme of this blog: that everyone who attends a Tier 4 law school has to succumb to failure and disappointment.

    I graduated with a liberal arts degree, didn't have any connections in the legal community, and I'm not a minority, yet I was able to graduate from WNEC with a great job that gives me the ability to pay my loans and live a comfortable lifestyle.

    I was never concerned with the statistics, but remained focused on my own success. Some of you refer to my circumstance as the result of “luck,” however, that perception is certain to lead to your own defeat.

    I'm going to get back to billing and collecting an ample paycheck, and I’ll leave you to your blogging.

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  95. Sept. 20, 8:11 AM: What narcissistic wounds you must have to write comments like these. Your self-indulgent drivel evinces insecurity, not success. I'm going to get back to saving humanity and collecting the biggest paycheck ever imagined, and I'll leave you to your digital ego masturbation, twerp.

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  96. 8:11:

    Successful people "in the law" don't have the time, nor the inclination, to hang out on scamblogs.

    I call bullshit.

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  97. From a commenter on another thread:

    “I agree that connections will trump educational elitism 90% of the time. There are a few attorneys that graduated from deplorable law schools that are scattered around the NYC legal landscape. Those "TTT" grads as you call them, are often "poster children" for their respective alma maters as they are plastered all over glossy admissions brochures and CSO webpages. These fortunate grads have a moral obligation to clarify that their astronomical odds beating is not the norm and to prevent their stories from being boasted as the rule rather than the exception to prospective and unsuspecting college grads.”

    These fortunate TTT grads do have a MORAL OBLIGATION to clarify that their situation is unique. Instead, too many of these tools feed into the misperception of law school, i.e. “If you work hard and make connections, you can succeed in the law - no matter where you went to school.”

    By this same logic, you can also say the following: “If you play the lottery, slot machine or the craps table, you too can come away a winner - if you simply employ the right strategy, work hard, and do not expect any handouts.”

    At least, anonymous at September 19, 2010 10:27 am recognizes that there are too many law schools producing too many lawyers for the number of available positions. The tool who posted on September 20, 2010 at 8:11 is the insidious type. This person feeds into the myth of law school.

    As you can see, he is also a douche. To wit:

    “I'm going to get back to billing and collecting an ample paycheck, and I’ll leave you to your blogging.”

    The two subsequent comments nailed it on the head, when they called out this troll. Successful attorneys could care less about these sites. They are too busy making money, representing clients, arguing motions, drafting/dictating memos, taking depos, holding staff meetings, etc. I also invited “law professors” from this commode to comment on this entry. Apparently, none of them had the balls to do so - at least not under their real names. We know that faculty members at WNEC follow these scam-busting sites. It speaks volumes that these learned academics cannot adequately defend their in$TTTTiTTTTuTTTTion.

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  98. I graduated from WNEC 12 years ago. It was thw worst mistake I ever made. I racked up $55,000 in student debt (they claimed the average debt load was $58,000), and could not get a job anywhere. It was an absolutely horrible time in my life, having all that debt and no job prospects.
    After 1.5 years of no work, I went to grad school and got a degree, then landed a non-legal job right after 9/11, and am doing OK now, though i still have a lot of student debt.

    As has been said, don't go to this school, unless you get a full ride, and then finish in the top 10% at the end of your first year. If not in the top 10%, drop out.

    The Asshole in NYC is correct.

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  99. To 12:07:

    You are not a voice in the wilderness.

    Purely from observation, my estimation at this point is less than 20, but more than 15 years out of Law School to destroy a financial life.

    I am not a financial expert, but that seems to be the historical period we live in. I graduated in 1996, and I owe close to 300 grand in student loans.

    I hope you stay around and become a regular here and on the related blogs.

    Law School Reform must happen.

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  100. I know someone who just graduated from here last spring. She's a bartender and will soon be moving back in with her parents because she cannot find a legal job.

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  101. Urgent Call to Action!
    September 17, 2010 by Robert Applebaum
    The Senate version of the Private Student Loan Bankruptcy bill passed a significant hurdle yesterday - it was voted out of subcommittee and now goes to the full committee. While we're still a good way from the finish line with respect to restoring basic fairness to student loans, this is great news. DO NOT LET CONGRESS DROP THE BALL NOW!
    I was planning on writing sample letters and giving you links to find your representatives and Senators, but the good folks at The Project on Student Debt beat me to it. No sense re-inventing the wheel, therefore, if you do nothing else today, please follow this link to send a clear message to Congress that you support the restoration of fairness to private student loans.
    Cut and paste link below to Send Letters to Your Senators and Representatives
    http://www.forgivestudentloandebt.com/content/urgent-call-action

    Little by little, we're winning the fight to restore sanity to the student lending industry. Let's keep the momentum going!

    ReplyDelete
  102. SO MUCH ANGST...

    I think people forget TTT-T law schools occasionally recruit talent that was overlooked by T14 due to poor test taking skills!

    When the TTT-T discoveres the student's talent and aptitude, nurture, and encouraged it everyone wins. School investment in student --> Natural practical skills --> ABA National Championship --> +1 Rep and Good Press --> Job.

    A job. Employers prefer to hire talent and not sheep. Moreover, who knows if some of the talent at TTT-T don't already have extensive legal networks? I go to school with a student who is directly related to a federal judge. They don't openly disclose that fact to protect hate and blowback from their peers and faculty. I feel sorry for those people that take this student's kindess for weakness.....

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  103. The WNEC professors profiled, Baker and Royal, have been at WNEC for close to 30 years, and are experts in their fields and spend countless hours at the school. They do work, and the students who do well in their classes are successful and in recent years have won ABA Tax Competitions. Gouvin and Stonefield are the next best professors at the school.

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  104. I wish I had seen this before I went to WNEC.

    I got a decent score on my bar exam, and got invitations to apply from a number of colleges including Boston College, and got offered a partial scholarship to Rutgers.

    But then WNEC sent me something offering me a full scholarship for the first year, with possibility of renewal. I had never heard of WNEC, so I googled it, and found it was ABA approved, so I figured that was all I needed beyond top 10 schools like Yale, Harvard, Stanford, etc.

    Man, was I ever wrong. By the time I realized how bad WNEC was, I was into my 2nd year, too late to transfer. I figured I might as well complete my degree, or my 1st year or 2 would just be totally down the drain. Scholarship renewals are difficult, especially since they count night students in with the class rankings. I ended up with 130k+ in debt total.

    They don't do much of anything to help you find a job, either while in law school, or after you graduate. The financial crash is somewhat to blame, but when I 1st decided to go there, they listed an average starting income for graduates as around $75k, and this turned out to be far from reality.

    I now spend my days drifting around between low paying jobs, based largely on where I can find a place to live for free. I don't even bother to try to find better paying jobs, because then loan payments + taxes would just take such a chunk out of my pay as to be not worth the bother. I've contemplated moving overseas, but most countries don't have much use for American lawyers.

    WNEC law degree means legal employers find you 'underqualified', and every other employer finds you 'overqualified'.

    I wish sites like this were around years ago, so I could have avoided making this mistake.

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  105. I am a student at WNEC who may or may not transfer for personal reasons. Honestly, the main post above has to be one of the biggest piles of trash I have ever read in my life. Of course WNEC is not a tier 1 school, nor does it try to be. It is a good school, none-the-less. It is what you make of it. Many people will slack and do nothing. I have worked hard, am amongst the top of my class.

    The statement, don't go to law school unless you get into a top 8 school is asinine at best. Not everyone goes to law school to become wealthy. Some of us actually enjoy it. Yes, I will say, I enjoy going to school every day and briefing cases, thinking about the inner workings of the law, and spending countless hours studying. I would not trade it for anything.

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  106. "Yes, I will say, I enjoy going to school every day and briefing cases, thinking about the inner workings of the law, and spending countless hours studying. I would not trade it for anything."

    Good for you, stupid bitch. Are you a trust fund baby? Responsible adults go to school so that they can earn decent money, and be contributing members of society. Do you honestly think that people spend $30K per year to read Camus?!?!

    Take your “inner workings of the law” rubbish, and cram it up your ass. Law = politics. Those who own and operate this country set the rules. Courtrooms, elections, process, open hearings, public comment, appeals, reviews, investigations, committee reports, judges and adversarial lawyers are there to give the appearance of fairness and legitimacy.

    If I were you, I would trade all of that academic nonsense for a set of balls - and a way out of that mental prison. I suppose this article offended your sensibilities. Then again, the main entry is based on the trash can known as Western New England College School of Law.

    Look at the body of the article, and actually READ - without letting your emotions cloud your judgment. The school had a 77.1% employment rate, and the median starting salary was $54,323. This is based off of the commode's website. US News listed the average law school indebtedness - for those who incurred student loans for law school - at $94,496. (This is law school debt alone, by the way.)

    http://abovethelaw.com/2011/03/law-students-at-a-top-school-protest-continued-unemployment/

    Check this piece out, ultrasensitive bitch. As you can see, UVA third year students donned T-shirts reading "VIRGINIA LAW $40,000 a year and NO JOB." The school is currently ranked 9th, by US News & World Report. How do you feel about your "bright future" now, ass-clown?!?!

    It is beyond tragic that so many college-educated Americans cannot accept reality. When faced with the facts, pussies like you CHOOSE to hide in a corner and lash out at the messenger. Get a pair of balls, and blow your nose with a Kleenex.

    ReplyDelete
  107. I saw your reply earlier, but I thought I would wait and post. I wanted to gather my words.

    What hit me at the outset was the angst that you have. I feel really bad for you and I hope that you one day feel better. I mean it.

    Also, I am not a trust fund baby. Far from it. I am probably one of the most lower income people at my school. First in my family to attend college, none-the-less law school! However, I see it as an opportunity. I feel that I will go places in life now, and that makes me feel good.

    I know you will say I won't, but I don't believe that. If I did I would not be trying so hard. I feel that I do try harder than many of my peers, but not all. I believe that I will be amongst the top of my class after finals. I know that there are people at every law school who work hard throughout both law school and life and go very far. I think that you probably didn't, and you are trying to blame the institutions for that.

    You need to gather yourself and ask yourself what you could do with the future. Whining about it here won't help you. You honestly need to gather yourself and make a plan for life. You don't seem to have one, unless you count this blog as it. There has to be a place where you can find some happiness. That is all I have to say for now. Your reply made me smile.

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  108. I don't get the complaining. I could understand if there were no opportunities in this great country of ours, but the thing is, there is a ton of options out there. I find myself to be doing well in law school, but I would be stupid to not consider having an exit strategy, in case things go sour.

    If for some strange reason I do not find law employment I can always join a branch of the military (maybe become a JAG) or even get a trucking license and become an Ice Road Trucker up in Canada (like on the show). They make good money, after all. There's a lot that one could enjoy doing, and having the superior intellect that comes with a law school education will pay dividends, even if not in money. I'd rather be a poor man with knowledge than a rich fool. I think you, however, might be a mix of both (poor fool).

    There's a lot of options out there, buddy. I suggest you start considering them.

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  109. @1:12.

    Congratulations for being the first one in your family to graduate from college. Then again, this is no big deal. I am in the same boat as you. Good luck paying off your student loans with your optimistic outlook.

    To the waterhead who posted at 2:47 pm,

    Job opportunities are shrinking in this "great" country, dumbass. (Nobody said that "There are NO jobs," bitch.) Like so many Americans, you simply cannot accept reality. That is unfortunate, and shows that you are mentally immature. Isn't is sad yet comical that someone can earn a Bachelor's degree and still be so dense?!

    By the way, going to law school does NOT show "superior intellect." If a person REALLY wants to go to law school, in this country, they can probably get in somewhere. I also know plenty of cretins who managed to graduate from law school.

    Earning a JD shows the willingness of one to trudge through seven years of "higher education" and take on significant student loan debt. Perhaps, you consider that wise or intelligent.

    Furthermore, law schools do not adequately teach students how to practice law. The overpriced dung heaps are too busy teaching students "how to think like lawyers." Yes, that is definitely worth paying $120K for, isn't it?!?! Could you imagine if we trained dentists and physicians, in this manner?

    Also, a rich fool can do very well in this world. Look at Idiot George. He managed to occupy the Oval Office for eight years. This is America, you poor, ignorant wretch. It is better to be rich and guilty than poor and innocent.

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  110. You chose the school you went to. Did you somehow not know the school was a third tier school? Did you not know that an education from a bottom ranking school would leave you with less job prospects? Did you not get a useful bachelor's degree that could be your potential back up career while seeking legal employment? I made sure my school was a tier one school in hopes of a better education with more job opportunities. In addition, I received a BS in Accounting so I could work as an accountant, if needed, while I look for my first legal job. It sounds as though you are bitter about poor choices you made and you only have yourself to blame for your situation.

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  111. To 11:55 pm,

    I knew that the school was a low-ranked institution. I also received a full-tuition scholarship, from this dung heap, to attend law school. I was on the wait list at a first tier toilet. What are the odds that I would have received a dime from that school?!

    Regarding my academic background, my undergraduate degree actually helped me land my current job. I cannot say the same thing for my worthless JD. Hell, I was told by a recruiter that my law degree made me "overqualified" for doc review jobs in Des Moines, Iowa. So much for “the versatility of a JD,” huh?!?!

    By the way, PLENTY of lemmings mistakenly or foolishly turn down money from a TTT, in order to pay more money to attend a second tier sewer or first tier toilet. Keep in mind that many JDs from "first tier" law schools are unemployed, underemployed, or working in non-legal positions.

    Lastly, learn some basic punctuation, sentence structure, and grammar, bitch. Enjoy your time in law school.

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  112. I think your attitude has a lot more to do with your lack of legal employment offers. Take a look in the mirror before you blame others for your situation. I am happy to know you are not in the legal profession. People like you bring the profession down!

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  113. To the piece of trash who posted at 11:18 am,

    Fortunately, no one cares what you think, bitch. If you want to hold up this pathetic job industry as an "honorable profession," then YOU need some intensive therapy, cockroach.

    Check out this 1939 article from Yale law professor Fred Rodell, regarding the vile, idiotic and absurd "profession" of law:

    http://fredrodell.com/pdf/Woe_Unto_You_Lawyers.pdf

    From page 78, pussy:

    "Now it is generally conceded that the purpose of language, whether written, spoken, or gestured, is to convey ideas from one person to another. The best kind of language, the best use of language, is that which conveys ideas most clearly and most completely, Gertrude Stein and James Joyce notwithstanding. But the language of The Law seems almost deliberately designed to confuse and muddle the ideas it purports to convey. That quality of legal language can itself be useful on only one supposition. It can be useful only if the ideas themselves are so confused and muddled and empty that an attempt to express those ideas in clear, precise language would betray their true nature. In that case muddiness of expression can serve very nicely to conceal muddiness of thought. And no segment of the English language in use today is so muddy, so confusing, so hard to pin down to its supposed meaning, as the language of The Law. It ranges only from the ambiguous to the completely incomprehensible.

    To the non-lawyer, legal language is, as mentioned before, to all intents and purposes a foreign tongue. It uses words and phrases which are totally unfamiliar to him. Or it uses words and phrases which he can find in his vocabulary but uses them in such a way that he is immediately aware that they must mean, in The Law, something quite different from what they mean to him. Or, on the rare occasions when a whole legal sentence seems to be made up of familiar words taken in their accustomed meaning, the sentence itself is likely to be so constructed that it doesn’t make common sense. Oh well, the non-lawyer will say with a shrug, I suppose it means something to a lawyer."

    On page 83, moron:

    "Thus legal language works as a double protection of the might fraud of The Law. On the one side it keeps the non-lawyers from finding out that legal logic is so full of holes that it is practically one vast void. On the other side, the glib use of legal language is so universally accepted by the lawyers as the merit badge of their profession – the hallmark of the lawyers’ lawyer – that they never stop to question the ideas that are said to lie behind the words, being kept busy enough and contented enough trying to manipulate the words in imitation of their heroes. The truth is that legal language makes almost as little common sense to the lawyers as it does to the laymen. But how can any lawyer afford to admit that fact, even to himself, when his position in the community, his prestige among his fellow craftsmen, and his own sense of self-respect all hang on the assumption that he does know what he is talking about?"

    In sum, the legal “profession” is a joke and a fraud. Do you understand that, you mental midget?!?!

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  114. I find it interesting that if you do not like what is written you do not let the comment be posted. You are pathetic. I see why you cannot find a law job LOSER.

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  115. To the sensitive vagina who posted on October 10, 2011 at 11:24 am,

    I actually published your stupid comment, you piece of trash. There are currently over 180 entries on this blog. I am tired of trolls and cockroaches trying to sneak in baseless remarks. From now on, older posts will require approval, pussy. Do you understand that, dung beetle?!?!

    By the way, when you are done swallowing your boyfriend's sperm tonight, try to come back with a wise response. If you prefer, you can pout and cry yourself to sleep, instead.

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  116. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  117. http://ip-whois-lookup.com/lookup.php?ip=24.4.52.131

    Hello cockroach. How are you doing today, in Antioch, California?

    Time Visitor Session Referrer
    Oct 14 2011 10:46pm 24.4.52.131 1 action 10s
    Oct 14 2011 1:28pm 24.4.52.131 1 action 10s
    Oct 13 2011 11:22pm 24.4.52.131 4 actions 3m 31s
    Oct 11 2011 7:37pm 24.4.52.131 1 action 10s
    Oct 11 2011 1:39pm 24.4.52.131 1 action 10s
    Oct 10 2011 12:10pm 24.4.52.131 1 action 10s
    Oct 10 2011 11:22am 24.4.52.131 4 actions 2m
    Oct 9 2011 9:46am 24.4.52.131 1 action 10m
    Oct 8 2011 9:39pm 24.4.52.131 1 action 1m
    Oct 8 2011 11:46am 24.4.52.131 1 action 4m
    Oct 8 2011 7:49am 24.4.52.131 1 action 2m 32s
    Oct 7 2011 11:14am 24.4.52.131 1 action 4m
    Oct 5 2011 1:42pm 24.4.52.131 1 action 10s
    Oct 4 2011 11:24pm 24.4.52.131 1 action 10m

    As you can see, the moron in Antioch, CA is responsible for the October 13 2011 11:25 pm, October 10 2011 11:24 am, and October 7 2011 11:18 am comments. For some reason, this mentally challenged chimpanzee keeps visiting this blog - even though he cannot stand the site.

    Listen, bitch: if you want to go to law school - despite economic reality - then go ahead. No one is stopping you, from making a foolish decision. I am simply publishing accurate data, to counter the mountain of lies published by the law school pigs. It is comical that you have no objections to the law schools manipulating data - and strapping students down with tons of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt. Get a life, bitch.

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  118. http://www1.wne.edu/university/index.cfm?selection=doc.9205

    "In 2009, the institution identified a change in status from "college" to "university" as one of the eight key directions outlined in its Strategic Plan 2009-2018, Individual Focus. Global Perspectives. A Personal Approach to a University Education, and began taking steps in preparation for such a transition. This included the development of a second Ph.D. program, one in Engineering Management, to meet the then requirements for university status as defined by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts at that time. There was an interesting turn of events, however, in the fall of 2010. The state colleges were changed to state universities by legislative decree. Essentially, without meeting standards of the Department of Higher Education (DHE) regulations related to achieving university status, the state schools became universities almost overnight. At that point, in light of the preferential treatment accorded the state institutions, the University requested that we, as a private college, be accorded more rapid access to university status."

    Yes, the word “university” sounds more imposing than the term “college.” These pigs just figured this out, huh?! The document continued:

    "This year marks the 60th anniversary of the first charter as Western New England College and appropriately saw the institution seek and receive approval from the Massachusetts Department of Higher Education to henceforth be named: Western New England University.

    Today, students of Western New England University benefit from a heritage born of a commitment to providing educational opportunities to men and women of all ages and economic backgrounds. The goal of the University's founders was and remains to provide outstanding academic programs with a professional focus that prepares our graduates to become leaders in their fields and in their communities."

    Notice that this pile of garbage law school has a name change, as the main campus has adopted the name Western New England University. The school is still a FOURTH TIER PILE OF GARBAGE.

    http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings/page+8

    Certain graduates of this trash pit - such as Philip Lietaer and Robyn Gallagher - believe that the third and fourth tiers have been eliminated, because Pussy Robert Morse assigned numerical ratings to the third tier and labeled the fourth tier as "Rank Not Published." (Hint, morons: if Morse pronounces that 2+2=5, he is wrong. Plus, the pig does not own the trademark on the terms “third tier” or “fourth tier.”) But this law school teaches people how to think critically, right?!?!

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  119. After I graduate WNE Law I plan on starting a solo practice. Any idea what my future earnings will be?

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  120. I graduated in 2008! Still on Foodstamps. Sometimes I think about killing myself.

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  121. am still looking for job vacant if you can help my email id is italoo232yahoo.com

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  122. Anyone defending this piece of shit law school is one of the following:

    1. a brainless shitling
    2. an employee of the shithole
    3. someone who has no skills and sees law as the only shot do something meaningful (the poor, ignorant cocksuckers)

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  123. I went to the undergrad division. It was fantastic. I have donated to WNEU's College of Arts and Sciences every year when they call.

    I spent one year at the law school on the edge of campus before transferring. It was a bad experience in a lot of ways. I'm not a communist, or a trustfunder, or a minority of any sort, so I wasn't entirely comfortable with the radical politics that crept into everything.

    The student body has too many burnouts from top liberal arts schools who feel that WNEC is below them and those who have a chip of some sort on their shoulder. I think "weight discrimination" was mentioned in at least two classes... cue the raised hands from those who didn't use their free campus gym membership (it's an awesome gym by the way). Look, I was in law school for an education I could use later, not a pity party for everyone who was picked on in middle school.

    The education is fine and yes they do produce some good lawyers who make bank (this is not Franklin Pierce, WNEC has a lot of finance types). But honestly, those normal people are getting crowded out by those who couldn't get into a better school but still have all the answers in the world. The faculty is good but you have to face facts and facts are that it's better to be at a school where 100% of the students have "it" versus one where only 20% really care.

    On a high note, I left after one year and joined several WNEC undergrad classmates who were at a top 10 school. My advice to folks is to give the undergrad division a shot, then take your LSAT and have an acceptance letter from a good school during senior year (all my pre-law friends did well). I would not suggest heading across campus the law school.

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  124. I need an attorney to represent me in a lanlord/tenant dispute. eviction.

    if you are licensed and willing to take on this case let me know. 917-902-3111

    ReplyDelete
  125. The school is not bad. I went graduated in 1991 and I am doing fine. However, it took 8 years to build a decent practice. I do agree that law schools should warn the students more. It is very hard to make it as a lawyer. It is not a growing field.

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  126. Been there, left that, enriched myself...can't say the same for classmates, but I was in it for the education and access, which I got and still use to my benefit. I took advantage of all opportunities I could and would encourage you to do the same in the betterment of your world. We all have rights to uphold under a reasonable person standard, assuming we're invested. I'm not, and I hold myself to other "real" standards, though I was involved temporarily - probably more so than the "hard workers" mentioned. At least I maxed my time/efforts. Learn it all in the first semester, lol. Lock into more? Specialize in the sucking of blood? Nah, even lawyers lawyer up when under suit. Pura vida, it's only money and that PPP gets devalued through inflation/printing, the norm. Fight the house you live in when abused, or seek solace of the wild and form your own foundation. I leveraged my experience, you might too, but I largely agree with the premise of this site - shit schools and bleak outlook. Try saying "no", and "because", and "what if", then go from there. People make the difference wherever you are. Money is a tool used for transactions between people. Middleparts, middlepeople, they take their share but they're bleeding the system they need to survive. My survival is independent of school, jobs, you all. Transgress and we'll talk property laws v natural laws. Bubble? Probable. I get paid to type this btw, so I laugh at the "negativity" from my happy perch few of you could reach. Beware the ego - you aren't special - nondischargeable intangible debts. Cheers, be happy that's your choice. Hope you all stay classy and well. We are better than the squabble. Enough twisting of words, back to reality for me.

    ReplyDelete

 
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