Thursday, September 9, 2010

Indelible Toilet Stain: Indiana University Robert H. McKinney School of Law

[I was inspired by an emotional midget/moron to post an entry about this second tier, third-rate toilet.]

Tuition: For the 2010-2011 school year, Indiana residents will be charged an estimated $19,871 in tuition and fees. For non-residents, the bill comes out to $43,465 – for one damn year of “legal education”!

Ranking: According to US News & World Report, this school is ranked as the 86th most amazing, astounding, exhilarating, breath-taking law school in the land! Yay! Their mothers must be so proud. Then again, the school shares this presTTigious honor with six other diploma mills.

Employment and Starting Salary Statistics: According to the school’s Office of Professional Deception, I meant to say “Professional Development,” 91 percent of its JDs from December 2009, May 2010 and August 2010 was employed within nine months of graduation. Sure they were, and actress Lauren Graham just locked her ankles around my waist and bit the hell out of my left shoulder – right after I gave her ten tremendous, spine-tingling, mind-numbing orgasms in a row!! Guess what, OPD drones?! NINE MONTHS HAVE NOT PASSED SINCE MAY OR AUGUST 2010!

The toilet of law goes on to claim that the median law firm starting salary for this recent class is $82,500. For Business, this figure is $55,800; Government $44,500, Judicial Clerks make $50,000; Public Interest $46,000; and Academic is listed as $51,500.

Furthermore, this document lists the median starting salary as $75K for those who leave the state; $72K for grads working in Indianapolis; and $60K for those JDs who stay in Indiana but work outside of Indianapolis. You may want to take these figures with a grain of salt, as the school does not list how many people responded to the salary info.

Average Recent JD Indebtedness: According to USN&WR, the average indebtedness of this commode’s 2009 graduates who incurred law school debt was $80,718. And 87 percent of this graduating class incurred law school debt.

Faculty and Administrator Salary Info: According to the Indianapolis Star, for 2008, dean and “Gerald L. Bepko Professor of Law”, Gary R. Roberts made $271,691 – making him the sixth-highest paid public university employee at this branch of Indiana University.

If you go into the database further and look up incomes in the $100K-$250K range, you can also see the following salaries for 2008: Paul N. Cox, “vice dean and Centennial Professor of Law” – whatever the hell that is – “earned” $186,330; Norman Lefstein, “Professor of Law and Dean Emeritus” made $176,497; and Judith Ford Anspach, “Professor of Law and Director of the Ruth Lilly Law Library” made $172,415.

What’s that you say?! You will make yourself stand out in this cluttered job market by earning good grades and landing on law review?! Well, for some reason, most legal employers – and pretty much ALL non-legal employers – do not give a damn if you were Notes Editor of the European Journal of Law Reform. Who knows? It may have something to do with the fact that Indianapolis is roughly 4,000 miles from the westernmost part of Europe. Likewise, potential employers do not care about your experience writing for the Indiana International & Comparative Law Review. Honestly, how does your esoteric, tangential understanding of international affairs benefit a toiletlaw firm?!

Conclusion: Indiana Univer$iTTy $ewer of Law-Indianapoli$ is a middling, trifling institution that will NOT provide the bulk of its students and graduates with strong job prospects. Unless, of course, you consider the following jobs appealing for a recent JD or lawyer with an additional $80K-$120K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt: insurance adjuster for Allstate; bouncer at Club Paradise; night manager at Denny’s; or as a customer service representative at TeleServe in Indianapolis.

If you are considering this commode of law, you need to ask yourself whether it is smart to invest three years of your life and $100K of NON-DISCHARGEABLE student loans for a realistic chance to earn $40K upon graduation. Lastly, check out the bi-modal salary distribution of recent lawyers and JDs, from the Class of 2009, put out by our friends over at NALP.

In fact, the mean, adjusted mean and average figures do not tell us much, as 34% of those who reported their income made between $40K and $65K. And 25% or 4,878.25 graduates reported incomes of $160,000 or more. So, if you do not land Biglaw – and there is not much chance of that happening from this dirty toilet – you are looking at making $35K-$45K, NOT $60K or $72K.


  1. Lots of TTT grads end up eating shit when it comes to getting jobs, so I suppose some toilet stains are edible.

  2. this just blew... my.... mind.

    look at that last graph and try not to step outside for a smoke. Maybe your first smoke ever. Maybe your last, if you have a gun in your car.


    more uplifting news. guess we should at least give these guys credit for not blowing smoke and telling us how wonderful and persevering the American spirit is, or some other such nonsense.

  4. A good buddy of mine described his 3 years of law school at IU-Indy as follows:

    1) Shook Dick Lugar's moist hand;
    2) Spent hundreds of hours soaking a nagging depression at PT's Showclub;
    3) Top 10%, top journal;
    4) $35K shitlaw job and,
    5) 90K in student loans.

    He said if he had to do it all over again he would either avoid law school altogether or substitute #4 (above) with killself.

  5. When you complete your review of all ABA approved law schools, you should have it published. It should be in every Borders and Barnes & Noble store next to Princeton Review guides et al.

    BTW, please review Loyola Law School Los Angeles, CA.

  6. At the rate the ABA keeps approving new law schools, especially with the overseas expansion plan (e.g., The Lagos Law Center in Nigeria, The Imelda Marcos Law School in Manila, etc.), Nando may have to wait a decade before he can review every law school and publish a book.


    This kid may have a nice job lined up before he graduates from this commode in May 2011. Dedrick Gordon interned at the office of the Indiana Secretary of State this past summer. He researched securities and loan broker cases. He also had a prior internship at the AG’s office. In addition, he is VERY active in several of the “right” student organizations. And Dedrick also happens to be a minority. Lemmings will now be able to cite to this one example, and say, “See, I can make it, too! It’s all about networking and believing in yourself!”

    Who knows? Maybe Gordon was connected, in the first place. He appears to have the hustle of a politician. How well are his peers going to do?

    What’s that you say, lemming? Former Vice President of the United States, Dan Quayle earned his law degree from Indiana University-Indianapolis?!?!

    Well, if you bother to read his story, you can see that his maternal grandfather was a publishing magnate who owned several newspapers, including The Arizona Republic and The Indianapolis Star. He earned his JD in 1974, but worked as an investigator for the Consumer Protection Division for the Indiana AG’s Office in July 1971.

    “Later that year, he became an administrative assistant to Governor Edgar Whitcomb. From 1973 to 1974, he was the Director of the Inheritance Tax Division of the Indiana Department of Revenue. Upon receiving his law degree, Quayle worked as associate publisher of his family's newspaper, the Huntington Herald-Press, and practiced law with his wife in Huntington.”

    In 1976, two years after completing law school, he was elected to Congress as a 29 year old. He then became a U.S. Senator at age 33. Could it be possible that Dan Quayle took advantage of his family’s wealth and influence?!?!

    In fact, with his family’s business, financial and political connections, he was able to overcome earning a political science degree from DePauw University and a TT law degree. Apparently, one’s connections are more meaningful than where one receives his degree. How many TT, TTT, and TTTT law students have similar connections?!?!

  8. But nando, I am smarter than QUayle. I will excel at law school. SO, I don't need connections. SO there!

  9. Who is Lauren Graham and why is she attacking Nando?

  10. 1:39=JJD, jealous that Lauren Graham assaulted nando.

  11. "How many TT, TTT, and TTTT law students have similar connections?!?!"

    I would assume that it depends on whether you get off your lazy duff and make them, jackass.

  12. Try actually looking up some of the small to mid-sized firms in the Indianapolis area to see where many, many of the young (age 25-35) associates are from - IU-Indy.

    Don't take my word for it - Google for yourself. Oh, I guess these recent associates are just "lucky" or "privileged." It's amazing how "lucky" you get when you actually apply yourself.

  13. very interested in your dissecting rutgers-camden pablum. please take a look. it's there.

  14. Evren, indelible means “cannot be removed or erased.” The stigma and stench of a TT/TTT law degree can stay with one for life.

    To Simple Chris, who is supposedly a lawyer in an Indianapolis law firm, using IP address

    Do you have a break in the middle of the day between Environmental Law and Advanced Westlaw Research Seminar? Chris, seeing that you visited this site at 2:33 pm and stayed for 22 minutes and 25 seconds - and made 6 actions in that time - does your “law firm” need to assign you some more “transactional work”?

    “In their Back to School 2010 Issue, The National Jurist's Pre-Law Magazine featured a list of “Top Green Schools,” including the Indiana University School of Law – Indianapolis among the top 15 (in the “Cum Laude” category). The magazine collected information about law schools' curriculum, campus environment and building trends. Additional weight was given to schools with a strong green focus in their classes, faculty and other academic offerings, such as externships, legal journals and summer programs.”

    Ooh! Indianapolis University Sewer of Law-Indianapolis is ranked as one of the “Greenest Law Schools” by pro-industry rag, Pre-Law Magazine!! This MUST be the pinnacle of Gary R. Roberts’s “career” in academia!! Look, they even “achieved” cum laude distinction. What a pathetic waste of space.

    Chris, why are you no longer posting comments under that handle? Could it be that I exposed you as a fraud in my last entry? Did Dan Quayle truly need to work for his connections? (I suppose he should be commended for not telling them all to piss off.) The other person I mentioned in my earlier comment, IU-Indy law student Dedrick Gordon, seems to have made solid connections and joined the “right” extracurricular groups.

    PLENTY of law students clerk for judges, work as research assistants for “law professors” and make connections during their internships, Moot Court experience, clinical programs, and volunteer opportunities. For instance, when I was in law school, no less than 5 active trial judges would be willing to vouch for me. (That number would probably change, in light of the honest nature of this blog.) THE POINT REMAINS THAT FEW OF THOSE CONNECTIONS WILL TRANSLATE INTO ACTUAL JOB OFFERS. The legal job market is flooded, dumbass. How does one distinguish himself from THOUSANDS of other current law students who are active in SBA, student organizations, volunteering in their communities, and have clerked for judges?!?!

  15. "How does one distinguish himself from THOUSANDS of other current law students who are active in SBA, student organizations, volunteering in their communities, and have clerked for judges?!?!"

    The exact same way that every other junior associate in the Indianapolis area did it (you may want to actually look through some of the local websites here to see how many there are).

    The hired associates stopped whining and took responsibility. They did not blame their law school. UNLIKE YOU, THEY MADE IT RAIN, DUDE!!! So get a life and quit expecting your entitlements.

  16. ^Not everyone can count on daddy hiring them, after LS. We know that is the case with you. There is no way in hades that your intellectually-challenged ass could have landed a legal job on your own. ALthough I suspect you are still a law student posing as a lawyer. It's not hard to make shit up online.

  17. Nando, I'm very surprised that one or more of these institutions haven't yet slapped you with a defamation lawsuit.

    Your comments are completely baseless. You falsely portray professional schools of law as "toilets" and attach derogatory pictures to school names that have no foundation in fact or law.

    While argument and free speech are constitutionally protected and encouraged, I think you cross the line.

    Although, in the end, your actions probably speak more about you than anything else. If you have a clear message, then it is clouded by your countless defamatory remarks.

  18. IC 34-15-1. Defamation.

    IC 34-15-1-1
    Allegation; burden of proof
    Sec. 1. In an action for libel or slander, it is sufficient to state generally that the defamatory matter published or spoken was about the plaintiff. If the defendant denies the allegation, the plaintiff must prove at trial the facts showing that the defamatory matter was published or spoken about the plaintiff.

    IC 34-15-1-2
    Truth; mitigating circumstances; evidence
    Sec. 2. In an action for libel or slander, the defendant may allege:
    (1) the truth of the matter charged as defamatory; and
    (2) mitigating circumstances to reduce the damages;
    and give either or both in evidence.

    *Retraction in Indiana will mitigate the damages, but will not nullify the liability. Three days is the limit to retract.

    **This is not legal advice. This is only a statement of the statutes. Contact an attorney about this matter for your personal case.

  19. Indiana Universities appear to be more aggressive against defamation.

  20. @ 5:03 pm,

    If you had the slightest clue as to what the hell you are talking about, I might be give pause to your comment. It is merely one player, but the school is ranked in the second tier. Its graduates incur lots of law school debt. It publishes an employment rate of 91 percent, without providing a detailed breakdown of the figures. This gives prospective law students the idea that they will find gainful employment upon graduation.

    Back on July 30, 2010 at 9:24 pm, Professor J. Gordon Hylton at Marquette Law School had this to say about Third Tier Reality:

    “For a thought-provoking (and sobering) blog devoted to the realities of legal education in the 21st century, one should check out Third Tier Reality”

    Another endorsement from an academic. And, let’s not forget this submitted law review article from Lucille A. Jewel of Atlanta’s John Marshall Law School:

    It is ironic that this “associate professor of law” was paid to engage in “legal scholarship” about the scam-bloggers. However, she concludes that these blogs are serving a good purpose and are exposing deep problems within the “profession.”

    “There are a lot of aspects of selling education that are tinged with consumer fraud,"[UCLA Law Professor, Richard] Sander says. "There is a definite conspiracy to lead students down a primrose path."

    Try reading and doing some research BEFORE you sound foolish, 5:03.

  21. Please do the University of Wisconsin.

  22. Nando I keep reading as you do the weeding.

  23. How dare you post accurate info on these law schools. What gives you the right to publish administrator and teacher salaries at public institutions, you slanderous prick?

    It looks like the Butler SLAPP suit is still pending, btw. Reading the article, it looks like Butler used strong arm tactics and then possibly retaliated against the blogger’s father, an employee of the university.

    Hey, legal beagle wannabe: slander must be untrue. US law schools lie about their employment and salary figures all the time regardless of rank or tier. It is an open secret. Go suck my beanbag, you blithering ignoramus. Then rinse your mouth out and get back to me.

  24. Except, 7:08pm, you forgot to mention that phrases such as "Indelible Toilet Stain: Indiana University School of Law-Indianapolis," "This toilet of law," "Indiana Univer$iTTy $ewer of Law-Indianapoli$," "commode of law," "dirty toilet," and the associated toilet photo are most likely defamatory and slanderous.

    In the Butler lawsuit, the "anonymous poster" posted not much at all about his University and now the student is now facing a very harsh lawsuit, prosecuted by one of the largest firms in Indianapolis.

    As I predict the Butler student will soon find, Indiana Courts are not too kind to those who misuse their 1st amendment rights to the detriment of other parties.

    *Obviously again, this is not intended as legal advice. You may want to seek your own counsel.

  25. If you're planning to stay in Indianapolis, IU-Indy isn't a bad place to attend. Many of the various partners, judges and associates attended IU-Indy, and there isn't exactly a rush of Harvard graduates entering the state of Indiana to compete for these jobs. As for the tuition, it's not impossible to qualify as a resident if you're coming in from out of state, which would halve the price tag. The vast majority of law students are in-state residents. Also, the COL in Indy is dirt cheap, at least compared to LA, New York or Chicago.

    However, let me second the opinion that you're not defaming these institutions by criticizing the numbers they put out and the tuition they charge.

  26. Betchya that the Butler student's legal fees defending this case would probably make his student loan debts look like a fly on a horse's rear end.

  27. Nando, there's no need to worry about a defamation suit. They are forgetting that recent law grads are judgment proof due to poverty. Besides, truth is a valid defense.

  28. Please do Northeastern University. It costs nearly as much as Harvard. Cadillac prices for this used Ford dump. The worst thing is that NUSL markets itself as a public interest law school. All the professors are either left leaning hippies or outright communists. Please expose this toilet.

  29. Fuck IU-Indy Shitter of Law. Board that place Who in their right mind would attend this pile of rubbish anyway.

  30. @8:47pm,

    You’re a silly, misguided twat. First and foremost, a written bog cannot be “slanderous,” you inept infant. If a written statement were to qualify as defamation, it would be called “libel.” Beyond semantics, you are still a pure imbecile. Nando’s comments, which you have so carefully placed in quotations (your shitty law journal will be so proud), are hardly defamatory. To be defamatory, a statement must be factual as opposed to pure opinion. Nando isn’t literally saying that IU Law is an actual toilet; rather, he is name calling, i.e., giving his opinion of its value. As far as the more factual statements he has made regarding IU’s reporting percentages, etc., there’s another pesky little problem for any potential IU lawsuit—what Nando has written is probably true. In addition, there’s the whole obstacle of a higher burden of proof for statements that can be construed as matters of public concern. Explaining the law school scam undoubtedly falls under this umbrella.


  31. ....

    Further, what exactly does Nando have to be afraid of? Why the fuck would he care about a defamation suit? Is IU really going to try to squeeze a judgment out of Nando? HAHA, good luck. Even if IU could finagle a judgment for damages in its favor, it would never be able to collect. Crack open the bankruptcy code. Watch out Nando, IU is coming for your Maybach collection!!! LOL -- All the University would want to do is shut his blog down. And can you imagine the eruption of negative publicity that would occur the second the complaint is filled? Every site that dabbles in legal commentary will cover the fiasco, e.g., Above the Law. You think IU wants to shine a spotlight on Nando’s comments? Absolutely not.


  32. ....

    BTW, where did you see that the Butler student was found liable for defamation? He wasn’t. OHHHH WOW, one of Indianapolis’ “largest firms” is representing a giant university?!?! This definitely means the University has a good case, RIGHT?! It couldn’t possibly mean that the University has bottomless pockets and can afford to pay a large law firm top dollar, could it?! No, that can’t be the case. In the history of the United States of America, a wealthy entity has never used the law to bully or silence a vulnerable party, has it?! But you see, that’s exactly what Butler sought to do: a poor student said negative things about the University; then the University began to receive poor press; finally, the University deployed a strategy where it couldn’t lose—it sued the poor student and strangled his blog to death with the threat of continued costs of litigation.


  33. ....

    “*Obviously again, this is not intended as legal advice. You may want to seek your own counsel.”
    Don’t worry you fucking ass clown. You can close your professional responsibility rag and continue to wail your nonsensical bullshit without worry. No one is going to object to your bar application on the basis of UPL for your anonymous commentary on an anti-law school blog.

    “those who misuse their 1st amendment rights”
    This stupidity speaks for itself.

    HTH Dipshit.

  34. 2:26, The 1:39 comment wasn't me, however, you are correct that I would smack any bitch who insulted Nando. At least verbally.

  35. I appreciate the wonderful suggestions for TTR profiles, i.e. Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, Rutgers-Camden, Wisconsin, and Northeastern. I was working my way toward over-priced commodes in the NYC/Boston areas. Then, an idiot going by the handle of “Chris” – who now chooses to post as “anonymous” – inspired me to shove a plunger down this specific toilet of law.

    I have more than a dozen other suggestions from readers of this blog. I will get to as many toilets as I can, in due time. Quality of posts is more important to me than quantity or pace. In fact, I wish I could devote more time to discussing the following subjects on this site: the “culture” of law school; the role of lawyers in the power structure, i.e. as peons to those in power; the primary purpose of law in society, i.e. to “legitimate” and justify the economic, political and social power of the financial elite; and the fact that today’s elite law schools do not differ much from the list in the 1920s. See David C. Yamada, Same Old, Same Old: Law School Rankings and the Affirmation of Hierarchy, 31 Suffolk U. L. Rev. 249, 251-256 (1997).

    This site relies on facts, figures, the spiraling cost of attendance, outputs/results, statements from those in the industry, articles documenting the shrinking legal job market, lucid logic and straightforward analysis. This irks “law professors” and administrators, who have a per$onal financial $take in keeping this system going. However, this also goes over the heads of lemmings who still believe in “the law.” Instead of directing their anger at those who are charging them $120K for a worthless product – and consuming 3+ years of their lives and income – these victims identify with their captors.

    Call it academic Stockholm syndrome. Because the “law professors” do not beat them with steel rods, they are acting out of kindness. “After all, they are imparting their immense legal knowledge upon us mere students. Law school is what you make of it. I went to a TTT, and, yes, I now make less money now than I did before law school. I also owe $110,000 in student debt, but I learned how to think like a lawyer and developed some critical thinking skills, which will undoubtedly serve me well throughout life - no matter what I do.”

    What can I say? Some people are gluttons for punishment, and many are delusional. Plus, many of these over-educated people cannot bring themselves to accept that they made such a poor “career” choice. They simply cannot admit they were duped, or that they made a stupid financial decision. After all, they are part of the educated class. We will all be well served to remember that advanced degree DOES NOT EQUAL higher intelligence.

    Bertrand Russell said it best: “Men are born ignorant, not stupid. They are made stupid by education.” (“Chris” is a PERFECT example of this statement. He is the law student who cited to the Indiana Code, and posted the idiotic “anonymous” comments at 2:39 pm, 2:45 pm, 4:46 pm, 5:03 pm, 5:15 pm, and 5:18 pm on 9-9-10.) Thank you for setting this moron straight, 9:47 am.

    JJD, thanks for the support, but actress Lauren Graham has my permission to lock her ankles around my waist and bite into me. You are a dreamboat, and you have the fight, determination and the brains that any real man would love.

  36. I didn't see a direct reponse to this gem of idiocy:

    "Try actually looking up some of the small to mid-sized firms in the Indianapolis area to see where many, many of the young (age 25-35) associates are from - IU-Indy."

    Um...ever taken a course in statistics? Logic? IU-Indy has about 300 grads every year. Of that that 3000 in the last decade, how many of those did you find at those firms? translate that into a percentage.

    The point of this blog is that law school is a losing proposition EVEN FOR THOSE WHO APPLY THEMSELVES. If everyone works as hard as they possibly can and only 1/3 of them can have jobs, what the heck is the point for the other 2/3 to even start?!

    You law school shills are under the delusion that 50% of people who go to law school aren't really trying to "apply themselves." What a crock of shit.

  37. To 9:48 am,

    Let's see. If Nando were to be sued for continually calling a school a "toilet" (which it factually is not) and other derogatory names, his options would be two-fold:

    1. Don't defend the suit, and let the case default against Nando; or

    2. Defend the suit through all stages of litigation (Yeah right, BigLaw would bury Nando).

    File bankruptcy? Well, let's just say Nando wouldn't have any other choice. At least Nando's income would garnished and his assets divided, especially since bankruptcy laws are much less forgiving now than in days of old.

  38. 9:49 am,

    EXACTLY. The University has bottomless pockets to prosecute the suit. Obviously, a suit cannot be used to "bully," but that's what it would feel like to Nando. Think it couldn't happen? Just ask how it feels to the Butler student.

    Will the suit prevail? Who knows at this point. But I'm sure the Butler student will feel like a loser after either: 1. the case settles; or 2. The Butler student notices his bank account after compensating his civil defense attorney.

    Fitting I think, considering that Nando has bullied these universities for quite some time now.

  39. No one should be going to law school for the purposes of "getting" a job. One should go to law school with the goal of "creating" a job.

    If you are valuable, then you will make yourself useful to where someone, somewhere will pay for your value.

  40. What need one do in order to become the prestigious "Gerald L. Bepko Professor of Law"?

  41. Hello "Chris", i.e. 1:13 pm, 1:18 pm and the idiot who posted the mindless platitude at 1:34 pm. He also posted the drivel at 8:47 pm and 8:57 pm last night, as well as the afore-mentioned idiocies at 2:39 pm, 2:45 pm, 4:46 pm, 5:03 pm, 5:15, and 5:18 pm on 9-9-10. Just match up the writing styles, the time he was logged in – using IP and

    Why don't you get a girlfriend? Actually, no real woman would be interested in a law student with a pencil-neck and an affinity for citing the state code.

    Law suits are used to bully all the time, idiot. Or did your "law professors" tell you differently?! Lobbyists bully all the time, especially when dealing with low-funded opposition. Have you ever heard of a SLAPP lawsuit, i.e. strategic lawsuit against public participation?!?! Did your "law professors" not bother to cover this concept? “The law” is OFTEN used as a weapon. Get it?! Or do I need to draw it out for you with Crayola markers on poster-board?!?!

    Everyone, here is an ADDITIONAL list of “Chris’s” TTR viewing activity:

    Sep 10 2010 12:57 pm; 9 actions; (session time of) 34 m 24 s
    Sep 10 2010 8:37 am; 2 actions; 2 m 31 s
    Sep 9 2010 8:30 pm; 8 actions; 37 m 59 s
    Sep 9 2010 5:46 pm; 2 actions; 7 m 5 s
    Sep 9 2010 4:38 pm; 13 actions; 47 m 31 s
    Sep 9 2010 2:33 pm; 6 action; 22 m 25 s
    Sep 9 2010 5:01 am; 2 actions; 2 m 26 s
    Sep 7 2010 8:50 pm; 2 actions; 5 m 5 s
    Sep 7 2010 7:42 am; 1 action; 10 m 22 s
    Sep 6 2010 9:26 pm; 1 action; 10 s
    Sep 6 2010 8:59 pm; 2 actions; 10 m 21 s
    Sep 4 2010 12:07 pm; 2 actions; 1 m 3 s
    Sep 3 2010 1:34 am; 2 actions; 10 m 27 s

    Now, Dumbass is using IP address, with Host Name

    “Chris” – who now chooses to go by “anonymous” – is A LAW STUDENT at Indiana University-Purdue University at Indianapolis, i.e. IU School of Law-Indianapolis. How are your studies coming along, son?

    Should I let this entry stay up for a few more days - as a way to reward "Chris" - or should I move on to the next toilet in the TTR crosshairs?!

  42. "Just match up the writing styles. . ."

    This guy sounds like he has some air tight reasoning abilities.

  43. Really? We're down to outing commentators now? Whats the point of that, exactly?

  44. "This guy sounds like he has some air tight reasoning abilities."

    Tighter than the guy who thinks BigLaw would file - and win - a defamation suit against Nando. If you knew anything about defamation, you'd know there's absolutely no case here. Besides the jurisdiction issue that any 1L in CivPro would see, there's absolutely no case here for multiple reasons (no false verifiable facts alleged, internet parody/hyperbole, the 1st amendment issue since IU-I is a public institution, etc.).

    Even a crappy lawyer from TTT IU-I School of Law could draft a 12(b)(6) [and a likely 12(b)(2)] to get Nando off the hook. No judge in the country would let this go further and waste their time with a case that's only going to burn filing fees and bring horribly-bad publicity.

  45. The comments threatening a defamation lawsuit were either written by a know nothing law student, a "professor" that has no experience in court or a law school administrator.

    Nando has expressed an opinion, which is protected speech. Any law school that sues Nando or TTR would come off like an amateur that is unaware of how the law works with relation to blogging or the internet. I hope a law school does sue. Nando, the Electronic Frontier Foundation would probably back you in the lawsuit (they have many lawyers who volunteer for the sake of protecting free speech on the internet). A discovery request may unearth the law school's attempts to "juke" employment stats among other nefarious schemes to defraud.

  46. It's not like Nando posted his phone number and email address, he's just pointing out that there's not as much support for Chris as there appears to be.

    It'd be awesome to see them file suit. They'd get nowhere, and this blog's readership would increase by a few orders of magnitude.

  47. Looks like nando simply pointed out that Chris is posting several commnts to give the appearance of several commenters.

    "Just match up the writing styles, the time he was logged in – using IP and"

    You left out the last part of his comment, 3:26. He also listed the date and time, and length of 'session' that Chris logged in or visited the site. Looking at those timesand duration as well as the amateur writing style indicates that the same asshole is posting sefveral comments. I bet if this shithole of a law school filed suit, this would help this site get tons more hits. Might even push the blog author write a book on the subject of law school diploma mills.

  48. The inclusion of 2010 grads in those stats is truly remarkable.

    These institutions are essentially entrusted to self-police themselves regarding employment statistics. LinkedIn, State bar statistics, school facebooks, etc provide the schools with more than enough tools to supplement their surveys. Should schools be using these tools to supplement their research?

    I certainly think so.

  49. Employment stats of all universities are widely known to be inflated. This practice is nothing new, even to new law school applicants. Any idiot that was born outside of a cave or a barn knows, or should know this.

    Apparently we need a blog here to tell us what everyone else already knows. Blog fail!

  50. Yes, the blog has had nearly 110,000 visitors sinced I started keeping track in mid-November of last year. It has also been cited in Above the Law, ABA Journal, Balkanization, National Law Journal, the Wall Street Journal, and Several law professors have stated that the law schools engage in shady or fraudulent behavior. Some of these professors have even publicly supported the premise of these blogs. Yes, that must equal “blog fail,” right?!?! You truly are an idiot, Chris. Talk like a man, and lose the douche bag language, i.e. “Blog fail!” (Yes, I can see that you visited this site at 12:19 am, and stayed here for 13 minutes and 33 seconds. You did so from IP, which means you must have had one amazing Saturday night, huh? It also means that this is the server you use when you are at home, not the “law office” where you are employed at.)

    In all seriousness, get a girlfriend. Grow a pair of balls, develop some nerve - and some social skills - and ask one of your single classmates out on a date. Wouldn’t you rather hang out with an actual woman, rather than spend countless hours on this blog? You have nothing substantive to contribute to this site. If you could come up with a cogent argument as to why law school is a good investment, then I would take you seriously. As it stands, your constant whining, weak logic, and obsession with this site is concerning.

    “Fitting I think, considering that Nando has bullied these universities for quite some time now.”

    You wrote that on 9-10-10 at 1:18 pm. Maybe this story will give you a little glimpse into my drive. In seventh grade, I beat the snot out of my bully. He never placed a hand on me, but he and his friends would say things like, “Get a green card” or “Learn English.” I would insult him in return. But I decided it would do no good to fight a kid who was a head taller than me, especially when he was always surrounded by several of his friends.

    Then one day, Dumbass thought it would be a good idea to try and push my sister off her bicycle. She was crying and told me about it. So, I walked over to his house. A mutual friend had some boxing gloves; his father was a semi-pro football player and all-around skilled athlete. We put them on, and I proceeded to punch this kid 9 or 10 times in the face, nose, throat, and mouth. He threw one or two punches, and landed one glancing punch to my torso. His nose was smashed up, and he was bleeding from his nose and mouth. He then put his gloves down and said, “I quit.” He never bothered me or my sister again.

    One of his friends tried something later on, and I punched him square in the mouth. He was stunned, and his friends picked him up and dusted him off. They learned something. And, to be fair, none of these kids tried to jump me afterwards - as is often the case today, when you beat someone’s ass in a fair fight.

    Would you like to hear about the time when I knocked out the most popular kid in my class, with a beautiful left hook to his stomach? He had the air knocked out of him, and was on the ground for at least 10 minutes. The substitute teacher did not even give me detention.

    So, I am fully comfortable with the designation that I bully institutions with DEEP pockets. I simply expose these law schools as the deceptive toilets that they are - and I back up my argument with the cold, hard facts.

  51. This is an interesting post, from someone who obviously has real life experience. When you hear about a university of law school such as this, it makes you wonder how the rest of the world (those that didn't graduate from tier 1 schools) is doing. I have been reading a lot about law school transparency, but it doesn't seem like much can be done. Perhaps with more blogs like this, the message will start to spread.

  52. "Nando said...
    'Yes, the blog has had nearly 110,000 visitors sinced I started keeping track in mid-November of last year.'"

    It's a beautiful thing...down with the law school industry! Unite to stop the financial carnage of a generation of unrealistically hopeful pre-laws entering this phony-baloney "profession", which lost its shine a loooong time ago.

  53. 12:25:

    1) What about those idiots born INSIDE the cave or barn--they don't count?

    2) You neglect to mention the UNIQUE negative aspects of the JD--that's what makes the JD dangerous, unlike any other degree field. Non-employers will shun the JD-laden applicant in much the same way one might have shunned a leper in the bad old days.

  54. Please do Western New England College School of Law.

  55. Designating a law school a "toilet" is merely an opinion and not actionable. The statement that law schools publish misleading employment statistics would be defamation if untrue. The case would go to discovery; which I don't think that the law schools would like.

  56. bored... If you actually thought that going and getting your JD would automatically mean you have a job, you probably aren't intelligent enough to employed in a meaningful fashion in a legal position. By the way, anyone can complain all of the time... that isn't a job that requires much skill so stick to your shitty blog.

  57. To the idiot above, i.e. September 17, 2010 12:41 pm:

    Had you bothered to actually read this blog, you would see that I did not expect that a JD would "automatically mean I would have a job." For those outside the top 10% at my TTT, most of us worked our asses off to find our own jobs. (You also had a fair amount of legacy kids who could do the minimum and then count on their judge father to get them a job. I suppose you feel that these people “earned” their jobs too, right?!?) Also, if you had ANY reading comprehension skills, you would realize that we did not think a law degree would present such a barrier to finding employment.

    After all, the law school drones endlessly recite this line: "A law degree is an asset that will benefit you, no matter what you do in life. It will make you more marketable. You will stand out, as a candidate with critical thinking skills and high ethical standards."

    The U.S. lawyer job market is GROSSLY OVER-SATURATED. This is why you are starting to see T14 students who cannot find jobs, idiot. If you cannot see the writing on the wall, then how will you be able to practice law - especially in matters you have no real knowledge of? Seriously, if you are unable to grasp the realities of the job market, then you are a vegetable.

    I will let the readers and commenters speak for the quality of this blog. At least, I back up my argument with the facts, figures and industry statements. Your main "weapon" is your incoherency. To be honest, your little opinion doesn't matter, son. This site still receives, on average, 400-500 visitors. With your juvenile writing style and chaotic sentence structure, you better pray that your mother blows the right hiring partner. Your "skills" certainly will not earn you a decent job offer. Thanks for playing, and you are welcome for the beat-down. Now, go play in traffic.

    And take this reading material with you:

    “As of April 8, 2010, over 14,696 people have been laid off by major law firms (5,772 lawyers / 8,924 staff) since January 1, 2008.”

  58. Why is there a bathtub next to that toilet?

  59. Hello, I want to collect details procedure to apply. Can you help me?
    I have found your University information from containing 5000 university lists. In the site there is a chance to apply to individual University directly. Are you affiliated with the site?

  60. Very interesting information about IU-Indy. I'm curious, are you aware of any lawsuits by former students seeking compensation for their tuition based on fraud or misrepresentation

  61. @ 3:13 pm,

    Check out Todd C. Bank v. Brooklyn Law School

    97-CV-7470 (JG)


    2000 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 16180

    "OVERVIEW: Plaintiff read in U.S. News & World Report that the class of 1992 graduates of defendant law school working in the private sector earned an average of $ 60,328. Based in part on that information, plaintiff attended defendant school. Plaintiff claimed that the $ 60,328 figure was false and misleading. Plaintiff filed a complaint that charged, inter alia, that defendant violated the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO), 18 U.S.C.S. § 1961 et seq., in association with other entities and individuals. The RICO claims were dismissed for failure to adequately plead a RICO enterprise. Plaintiff failed to plead participation in the operation or management of the enterprises claim. The claim was also dismissed because it was not sufficiently pleaded. Plaintiff's conclusory allegations failed to establish any conscious behavior giving rise to an inference of fraudulent intent. Further, the allegations failed to show that a conspiracy existed. Nor was there any basis to retain jurisdiction over the other state law claims."

    Bank did not help his cause, by filing a RICO claim.

  62. In a sense, Nando's post ends up being a compliment to the Indy Law School. He didn't really have much bad to say except that even before 9 months were out the school reported 91% employment--- one could expect it to rise by 9 months, so that's a conservative estimate (do make the obvious joke here, please). And, that it is presumptuous to have student law journals on glamorous but impractical topics. If that's the worst he could come up with, the school must be okay. That's what second tier means, in fact--- you have a good chance, if by no means guaranteed, of getting a genuine law job that might actually make incurring a giant debt an ok investment. It's maybe worth paying the extra $10,000 tuition per year if your alternative is a 4th=tier school.

    (Disclosure: I'm an IU econ professor. Advertising: Truth on the Market is going to have a discussion on the legal job market soon:


    Hello Eric Bennett Rasmussen. I will forgive your TOTAL IGNORANCE, on this subject. "Economists" are known for making TONS of assumptions, in order to reach the conclusions they want to promote.

    This may also explain, the giant holes in your "logic." You did not refute any of my links, with any evidence. But in your mind, you don’t need to, right? You are correct, because you believe so. To wit:

    “If that's the worst he could come up with, the school must be okay.”

    Yeah, and the Miami Heat must be the best team in the NBA, because the Dallas Mavericks only defeated them in the last Finals, four games to two.

    “He didn't really have much bad to say except that even before 9 months were out the school reported 91% employment--- one could expect it to rise by 9 months, so that's a conservative estimate (do make the obvious joke here, please).”

    This page still purports to show the employment placement rate, for students who graduated in December 2009, May and August 2010. The figure is now listed as 91.55 percent. Apparently, only an additional 0.55 percent of these grads landed employment, from that point forward. NALP, US "News" & World Report, and the ABA typically measure employment rates within nine months of graduation. By the way, son: law schools are allowed to count JDs working as insurance salesman, baristas and bartenders as “employed” for the purpose of the employment survey. You do realize that such jobs DO NOT REQUIRE a law degree, correct?!?!

    If you bothered to look at the top of this entry, you would have noticed that it was posted on September 9, 2010. Eric, HOW THE HELL COULD THE SCHOOL CLAIM - IN SEPTEMBER 2010 - THAT 91 PERCENT OF GRADS FROM DECEMBER 2009, MAY 2010 AND AUGUST 2010 WERE EMPLOYED WITHIN NINE MONTHS OF GRADUATION?!?! At that time, May 2010 grads wore their idiotic caps and gowns, four months earlier. Those from August 2010 had received their degrees one month before. (It is embarrassing that I need to give a basic math lesson to a university “economics professor.”)

    Law schools are permitted to count those working at Kmart or Lowe’s as “employed.” However, one does not need a law degree, to work in retail. According to NALP, the JD Class of 2010 had 44,258 members. However, only 28,167 jobs required bar passage. That is a mere 63.64% of 2010 law grads. Of those who reported their employment status, only 87.6% of grads reported having a job - legal or non-legal, part-time or full-time, permanent or temporary.

    Yet, this pathetic second tier sewage pit purports to have a higher job placement rate, than the overall JD Class of 2010 - by a full 3.95 percentage points?!?! I understand that this dung heap included December 2009 grads in the mix, but this appears to be an unlikely discrepancy.

  64. UPDATE: THIS PIECE OF TRASH LAW SCHOOL RECENTLY CHANGED ITS NAME to the Indiana University Robert H. McKinney School of Law. It was previously named the Indiana University School of Law - Indianapolis. Of course, it remains a putrid dung pile.

    "About Our School

    The Indiana University Robert H. McKinney School of Law, recently named the Robert H. McKinney School of Law, is one of two law schools at Indiana University. Our location in Indianapolis provides an advantage to our students and faculty, who have access to state and local governments as well as the opportunity to learn from and work with many of our state's practicing attorneys, judges, and government officials. Our school has an enrollment of more than 1000 students and over 100 full and part-time faculty. Ours is the largest law school in the state of Indiana. In addition to our full-time day division, we have the only part-time evening division in the state and we offer several joint degree programs in conjunction with several other schools on our campus."

    On December 1, 2011, the IU News Room issued a press release labeled "IU School of Law-Indianapolis named for business and civic leader Robert H. McKinney." Here is an excerpt:

    "INDIANAPOLIS - Indiana University President Michael A. McRobbie today, Dec. 1, announced the naming of the Indiana University School of Law-Indianapolis in honor of Indianapolis attorney, banker and civic leader Robert H. McKinney.

    The school will be known as the Indiana University Robert H. McKinney School of Law in recognition of the largest gift ever received by the school and one of the largest in legal education.

    McKinney's gift of $24 million, along with matching funds committed through the IUPUI IMPACT fundraising campaign, will bring the total value of the gift to $31.5 million.

    The landmark gift will provide funding for five endowed chairs to attract and retain nationally recognized scholar-teachers to the faculty."

    In the final analysis, the school is still a corroded, foul waste pile - despite the name change. By the way, naming a law school after a rich, white guy/donor is so original, right?!?

  65. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  66. To the piece of garbage who posted on December 12, 2011 at 4:16 pm,

    How are you doing, Greenwood, Indiana cockroach?!?! Actually the only ones crying are the morons and pussies - such as yourself - who cannot handle the truth about law school.

    Visitor detail
    IP address:
    IP lookup: ARIN / RIPE
    Unique ID: 838850597
    First visit: Mon Dec 12 2011 4:06pm
    Visits: 1
    Language: English
    Location: Greenwood, IN, USA
    Operating system: Windows XP
    Web browser: Firefox 8.0
    Resolution: 1024x768
    Javascript: Enabled

    Time Visitor Session Referrer
    Dec 12 2011 4:06pm 5 actions 11m 13s

    Is this the only dung heap that admitted you? If you are intent on going to law school, then go ahead, bitch. However, don't cry when it doesn't work out for you, water-head. The schools are pumping out FAR TOO MANY grads - for the available number of legal and law-realted job openings. I have proven this, and now U.S. senators, a few decent law professors, the New York Times, and other major news outlets have pointed out this reality. If YOU cannot handle reality, then YOU have a personal problem. Enjoy law school, you piece of trash.

  67. I realize that this is an old article, but on the off chance that anyone were to peruse by...

    What exactly are your thoughts for those that have a healthy career track prior to law school? Are the chances better? I ask as a thirty something year old veteran turned civil servant who already has a middle class income. Could this experience shoot me past the young pup grads that just recently spit out the tit? Ihaven't even applied yet - but what am I to do when I've been thinking about it for over twenty years (make the dream stop!)?

  68. I know I'm a couple years late to the party, but if you're wanting to practice in Indiana this school is the way to go. Grads of this law school monopolize the legal market. Bloomington & Notre Dame mostly leave the state. Valpo people seem to flock to Chicago or set up their shop. I'm an IU-Indy grad. Trust me, I think the school is somewhat shitty and overrated. But if you're staying in state it's still your best option (side from not going to law school at all).

  69. I hate it here. This place lacks any culture or camaraderie. The admin does not care about your success, and I have received dozens of diversity emails for job fairs only to be told I am not the diversity they are looking for.

  70. I disagree with the above poster. The staff genuinely does care. I was doing pretty bad my first year, but eventually picked up after second year on, thanks to d the Dean. I just don't like the people (the students).

    It was the students (my classmates) that I couldn't stand...

    First year, it seemed like everyone was trying "too hard" to fit in, and then also, they were very very cliquey. People gossiped about everyone in the school. I did find one friend. But I truly did not like being with my first year classmates at all.

    If there is any advice I will give anyone. Make sure you try and make friends before you enter that school or you will be talked about. It's just stupid. Glad I'm done with that school to be completely honest.


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