Wednesday, September 29, 2010

Touro Law Grad/House Painter Drowning in $271,928.81 in Student Loan Debt


You are viewing a scanned copy of a student loan statement recently sent to my email address, from a TTTTouro grad. I have obtained this person’s permission to publish this info on this blog. Contrast this situation with that of the bastard featured in the prior post.

As you can see, the principal balance outstanding on this account is $271,928.81 at an 8.25% fixed interest rate. Much of this is due to deferments caused by economic hardship, i.e. not being able to land employment.

http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/loanpayments.cgi


Based on this financial aid calculator, if this accountholder were to pay the minimum monthly payment of $2,042.91 for the next 360 months, cumulative payments will have totaled $735,448.13. This means that this person will have paid $463,519.32 in total interest – on top of the principle and interest paid so far. This person graduated from TTTTouro Law Commode more than 10 years ago.

In a prior TTR entry, this graduate left the following comment:

“I paint Houses for a living now, and am in close to 300 grand in debt, and counting.

The old resume with Touro on it never did the trick. Touro never seemed to impress the want ads on Career builder or Monster.com. no matter how much I tried to rephrase it as "Legal Studies" or extra college credits with an emphasis on Law.”

In a subsequent email, this reader also provided me with a scanned copy of a rejection letter he received from his bank when seeking to buy a new rug for his parent's basement.

“Thank you for favoring Wells Fargo Financial National Bank with your revolving charge interest.

We have given your application the most careful consideration. As much as we would like to serve you, we cannot do so at this time.

PRINCIPAL REASON(S) FOR ADVERSE ACTION CONCERNING CREDIT:
EXCESSIVE OBLIGATIONS IN RELATION TO INCOME”

http://www.nextstudent.com/articles/guide-to-responsible-borrowing.asp


“Bad credit can keep you from being approved for a car or home loan, it can make a landlord choose not to rent to you, and it can even affect whether a potential employer decides whether or not to hire you.”

It is comical that this private, piece of trash “education funding company” provides advice on “responsible borrowing” – but does not engage in responsible lending.



“If you thought that we were nearing the end of the housing crisis, think about the fact that the new generation has too much debt and too few job prospects. Where is the next generation of home buyers going to come from? Having mortgaged their future to the educational establishment young people are not soon going to be in the market for new homes.” [Emphasis mine]

Such crippling student loan debt causes many young people to postpone milestones such as marriage, having children and buying a home. This WILL have long-lasting repercussions. Furthermore, the U.S. economy is predicated on consumer spending. How the hell are we supposed to jump-start the economy when MILLIONS of college graduates are paying $800-$3000 a month in student loan payments for the next 15-30 years?!?! This is a mortgage payment that is not going to pay for a house or other necessities of life. How are legions of graduates – MANY of whom are making $25K-$45K per year – supposed to support a household, pay the bills and raise children on those pathetic salaries, when they are burdened with these liabilities?!?!

If you are reading this as a prospective law student, take heed of these words and stories. Do you have SERIOUS connections or the financial means to go to law school? If not, then you should not pursue a “legal education” in this country. There are simply too many law school diploma mills producing FAR TOO MANY graduates – for the available number of positions. Tuition has been skyrocketing for decades, and the banks own Congress. If you need to take out private student loans to finance your “education,” you will almost certainly regret the decision to attend law school. Remember, you cannot walk away from student debt.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/consumer&id=6058241


Also, if you default, you can count on employers finding this on your credit report. Do companies want to hire someone who is not “responsible” enough to keep on top of their student loans? Even the U.S. military is now performing credit checks when making hiring decisions.



Furthermore, banks do not exactly want to extend a mortgage to someone who has $200K in outstanding, NON-DISCHARGEABLE student loan debt. Student loans can have life-altering repercussions.

In the last analysis, we need to work together with our allies at http://alleducationmatters.blogspot.com/ and Alan Michael Collinge at http://studentloanjustice.org/ to truly bring this issue to the forefront. While Cryn Johannsen and Collinge refrain from using pictures of filthy toilets and puke-covered Dumpsters, we are largely on the same page when it comes to student loans. After all, this is an issue that is DIRECTLY affecting millions of young people.

168 comments:

  1. You have to see it to believe it. This is beyond ridiculous and nothing will change--an entire generation has been decimated in the name of "Higher Education" that consists of sitting in a room and having people tell you what you need to know. You will be judged by circular marks on a piece of paper fed into a computer. Welcome to the Brave New World!

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  2. You will be judged by how many times you can click in an hour.

    Support the Franken/Dodd bill (Fairness for Struggling Students Act (S 3219)) and the house version (Private Student Loan Bankruptcy Fairness Act (HR 5043)) which will stop the discrimination against students and allow private student loans to once again be dischargeable in bankruptcy. HR 5043 has been voted out of subcommittee and is now in the House judiciary committee. S 3219 has also been voted out of subcommittee and is in the Senate judiciary committee. Call your Congressmen, Senators Franken and Dodd and members of the House and Senate judiciary committee to show your support. Time is of the essence.

    A good example of how the banks actually write legislation is the bankruptcy reform legislation of 2005. In the bill Congress produced, private student loans were no longer dischargeable in bankruptcy. The banks were able to write this bill because students have no organization or lobby paying favors to congressmen.

    I have seen it done with mine own eyes. The bank's inside counsel draft the legislation and then pass it on to congressional staffers that they have quid pro quo relationships with, often the staffers and bank's attorneys went to the same schools, and the bills are then introduced into committee in the form drafted by the banks.

    No national purpose was served by this legislation. In fact, the bill has served to cause many who tried to better themselves through higher education to wind up as indentured servants slaving away for banks. American's families are impoverished and generations will live in poverty because the banks pay legislators lucrative rewards in the form of campaign contributions and high paying jobs.

    These private loans, because of little regulatory oversight, often become unpayable because the interest and fees increase to an amount larger than the original loans. The only reason former students are discriminated against in bankruptcy (other bank loans and even gambling debts are dischargeable) is because students have no lobby, and the corrupt political process favors the disproportionate influence of the banks which use the legislative process to do their own bidding.

    Americans should not have to live in indentured servitude because the economy cannot provide a job for them at a living wage, often because the banks and corporations use their undue influence in the political process to shape the economy for their own purposes, not for the good of the country.

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  3. Very good point that the housing market isn't going to recover until the Yuppies have income again.

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  4. I won't disclose too much information....

    but a good friend of mine works at a 4th tier law school. He once overheard one of the administrators talking with a friend about whether he/she would ever go to law school. That same administrator starting laughing " You have got to be kidding me! I would never go to law school and take a pay cut from what I am making now! There are too many attorneys and most won't find jobs to pay back the loans...but thats not my problem. I know many established paralegals making more than some Attorneys"


    This is no fucking joke either.

    My friend said at this 4th tier law school on the west coast...that you should NEVER go to a 4th tier law school unless the following:

    a. You get a full scholarship

    b. You are already working as a Paralegal/Cop-Police Officer/Gov't worker who is already in the legal-government profession and you having been working for a few years in law/govt and going to a part time program at night will help you move up in your career.

    (There are many successful T4 grads making good money, but thats because they were already paralegals/cops/govt workers for a few years and did law school at night while building work experience)

    and finally...

    c. If you know you will take over "Mom and Dad LLP" law firm where your parents are attorneys and have lucrative practices where you can join the firm, or take over the firm and eventually make good money.



    Other than that..DO NOT ..I repeat DO NOT Go to any 3rd or 4th tier law school!

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  5. Crazy. We are strapping down our young, educated people with monstrous student loan debt. Who will buy homes? I guess the assholes in congress would rather help Albert Lord and the banks than help out the average college grad. Thanks for posting this.

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  6. Great post, Nando. Congress will never help out students because we can't pay them off like the banks can.

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  7. Nando - You ask where the new home buyers will come from in the US since the younger generation is already in hock due to excessive educational debt. I take a stab at answering that question. The new home buyers will come from overseas once the dollar plummets relative to the other currencies. Think about how much real estate China could buy at this point based on the amount of treasuries they have bought from the US Government. Think about this nightmare scenario, all real estate is bought and owned by foreign investors or entities, for literally pennies, based on some Zimbabwe (sp.) or Argentinean hyperinflation event. Isn't Amerika great!?!

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  8. The housing market can only recover if we actually let prices fall to where young indebted buyers can afford them without bankrupting themselves. But then the boomers start crying about their precious home equity they never had, as if they should be immune from investment loss because they bought a house beyond their means. The thing about bubbles is that when they burst you can't just wish prices back to where they were. It doesn't matter if it's real estate, HP stock (still showing a 50% loss from 2000 considering inflation), or a Reuben Sierra rookie card (never going to be worth $40 again). Until the elites figure this out, stop inflating home prices with all their crappy programs, foreclosure relief, etc., and let prices fall to match what the under-40 crowd is actually making and can reasonably afford, we're only prolonging our economic troubles even more.

    I wonder how 3T and 4T administrators sleep at night.

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  9. Very simple way to obviate this mess - make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy and see how quickly things change...

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  10. My wife's father is a bank executive in a small area. He started as a land appraiser, and moved up. He told me a few years back about all the foreign investment in small-town America.

    Once, we were driving somewhere and he pointed out SEVERAL hotels, motels, gas stations, fast food restaurants and other commercial properties that were owned by Indian and Chinese investors and investment groups. On the main thoroughfare, more than half of the businesses were foreign-owned – according to his account. He worked on those deals, so he knew what he was talking about. It was quite humbling. I wonder how many people go into these establishments and never understand who is profiting from their business.

    The reality is that MANY young people are not able to purchase a home, get married or start a family – due to their crushing level of student loan debt. If any pre-law students are viewing this entry, remember that this could be you if you decide to take this foolish path. If you think you are “too smart” to end up with such extreme debt, take into account that even if you are “only” $100K in debt, you will find it EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to re-pay these loans on a pathetic $38K salary. If you go into forbearance or defer your loans, you will watch helplessly as interest accrues – increasing your outstanding balance.

    Avoid private student lenders AT ALL COSTS! Interest rates are generally higher, the loan terms are less forgiving, and these pigs are less likely to work with you – even if you are in need of “economic hardship.” They also have collection and garnishment powers. Also, your Social Security is not beyond their grasp. God forbid you default on your loans, or miss a single payment. In that case, you will go through collections hell – with all the accompanying fees, fines, penalties and assessments added onto your balance. Once again, you cannot walk away from student debt. It is the most toxic type of debt to be burdened with.

    In light of these SERIOUS risks, do you still want to attend law school?!?!

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  11. Seems the owner of the loan is the Department of Ed, aka The Direct Loan program. Seems our own Gov't is charging this poor guy 8.25% interest? Seems to me that our own Gov't could charge around 2% - just enough to cover admin costs. My Direct loans were consolidated at 4.37% in 2001 or so.

    Outrageous!

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  12. And this guy graduated 10 years ago? Poor poor soul. What a shame he has had to live his life like this. He needs to get the fuck out of the US due to economic persecution.

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  13. My mortgage was $168,000 ten years ago and I graduated with $45,000 of debt (which included tuition and some living expenses) 19 years ago. I fear for my kids' futures . . .

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  14. I am already sick of paying taxes for other people. Look at my paycheck and it is earmarked for others through taxation. I paid off my student loans, now others want them forgiven. I have no children and attended parochial schools yet I pay taxes on my house forever to pay for others peoples children to attend public schools. I have made and paid for choices that kept me out of debt, so why should I pay for anyone who has the finances of a gambler.

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  15. Three Words: French Foreign Legion...

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  16. This is why they invented BANKRUPTCY, because people shouldn't sacrifice their natural lives to the altar of an unpayable debt.

    The law has to change to allow for the discharge of student loans, come what may.

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  17. I called both of my senator's offices today to make appointments to speak to their constituent liaisons. I want to offer my vigorous objection to any proposed student loan bailout. I paid for my education years ago and echo the sentiment of the 9:50AM poster. Anyone who takes out 6 figures in loans to finance a TTT or a non-T6 law degree deserves to drown in debt for life. That is a risk you take and should have appreciated long before you started doing any logic games for the LSAT. It must be nice to vacation for 3 years in law school while escaping the realities of the world. Well, those kids deserve to suffer and be anchored by financial penury.

    Don't want to have lifetime debt? Live within your means and don't take out loans to get a useless degree. Besides there are too many lawyers out there. In NYC alone look at the Yellow pages under "lawyers." I am surprised the Yellow pages company doesn't come out with a Lawyers only edition of the Yellow pages.

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  18. Student loans are nearly one trillion dollars outstanding. If they are forgiven, that would mean increasing the debt of the USA payable through increased taxation. Where does it end? For those who paid their loans for the past two decades, do they get a rebate? For those who never attended fearful of debt, how are they compensated? How about future college graduates? Debt has to be paid by someone. Who gets the bill if not the borrower?

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  19. The interest rate that fellow is obligated is likely from the 1990's. Educational loan interest rates went to less than half that amout and higher educational costs doubled. My student loan rates from the 1980's averaged 8%.

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  20. Nando, your blog has humor with cold hard facts. Bravo.

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  21. This post is making my soul hurt, and I don't even believe in souls.

    Dude, you're probably reading these comments... house painting is a skill transferable to just about anywhere. Head down to south America or something and be a house painter down there, and let the bank chew its own tail looking for you. Unless of course your parents cosigned, in which case they'd have to come with you.

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  22. I had a paralegal who was with me for ten years leave because of family issues and a year later she has still not found a job and says employers are telling her so many just graduated or out of work lawyers are flooding the paralegal market that it is impossible for everyone to find anything.

    That being said, someone who takes out the kinds of loans that must be taken out to go to some of these schools need to do some research. This blog is a big help for sure but I am guessing most of the kids who take out the loans just block out the fact that employment may be a little harder to find then they expect.

    I feel for this person but if not him, someone will take his place and be more then willing to pay the money. We need to make the schools loan the money to students it accepts, not the government. Then they could hire their paying graduates to sue their non paying graduates all while increasing their employment statistics.

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  23. Seems to me that the schools should be held liable for this mess, and be forced to set up a fund, whereby those who couldn't get jobs would get a refund to pay off their loans. Fat chance of that happening, though.

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  24. Bankruptcy for student loans ain't gonna happen. The banking lobbyists are too strong to ever let that happen. What could happen, quite easily in my opinion, is for the Federal goverment to impose annual caps on tuition increases if they want their students (prospective and current) to be elegible for federal student loans. It's that simple. If you raise your tution by more than say 2% per year, your students are NOT going to get any federal student loan money. This will drive down tuition increases. It won't help those who have already screwed themselves, but rather future lemmings.

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  25. I'm as outraged as anybody about the decimation of my generation's economic prospects by student loans, but borrowing more than 40K a year, for seven years (college and law school) is really pushing it.

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  26. I HAVE A BIG QUESTION FOR ALL OF YOU UNEMPLOYED ATTORNEYS:

    While you are unemployed, the job market sucks and you can't find jobs as an attorney in the Great Recession....

    When the job market picks up, and more legal jobs come about in the future...will you all apply for the law jobs? OR HAVE YOU DECIDED TO LEAVE THE LEGAL PROFESSION ENTIRELY AND DO SOMETHING ELSE?



    There was a great article about Scott Bullock in the Wall Street Journal who left the legal profession only a few years after graduating from Seton Hall law school to become an Electrician in NYC

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  27. My own opinion (1:43) is that even if the legal market were to suddenly improve, those that have been out of the legal market for a few years (or even a year) will still have great difficulty finding a job because legal employers (rightly or wrongly) will look to the new graduates first since people that have been unemployed will be viewed as "damaged goods." It's easier I suppose for the firms to take the cheery-eyed, fresh meat from law school instead of an unemployed, jaded attorney. As for myself, I'm a contract attorney, but worked in biglaw for 3 years. At this point I feel my only option is to create my own opportunities by going solo and then form a partnership with one or more friends. I just can't stomach the thought of working for someone else at this point and dealing with the low pay, added stress and lack of job security to boot. I may not make a lot of money initially as a solo, but at least no one is going to shit can me either.

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  28. All this talk of non-dischargeable student loans makes me wish I was alive today. I would have charged kids 18 points per loan and I wouldn't have to pay muscle to break anyone's legs.

    The Ghost of Lucky Luciano

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  29. @2:08PM

    I'm sorry, I can't help commenting.

    You said: "It's easier I suppose for the firms to take the cheery-eyed, fresh meat from law school....."

    Did you know that Meat-Loaf was so turned on by Lady Gaga's Meat Dress, that he went home and beat his meat?

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  30. To the Painter that owes $271K:

    I am about to make your day. I will give you advice, gratis of course, that will save you $100K over the life of your loans. Just enroll in the Electronic debit program (read the peunltimate paragraph of your loan letter) and you will knock off .25% off of your interest rate.

    You are welcome. Good luck and keep on painting.

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  31. I've decided to strategically default on my private student loans. I have 120 days left before I officially default. Tomorrow my stellar credit will go down the toilet (hehe...had to throw that in). Sorry but putting food in my mouth and a roof over my head takes precedence when making a pittance. The manager at Sallie Mae told me that I would face garnishment if I defaulted and that "we will get our money back since we always win in the end". I told him I already had plans in place to move overseas. At which point, he went ballistic on me. I take it that this is Dear Aunt Sallie's worst nightmare. Her indebted children moving far away and out of her control! Catch me if you can Bitch!

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  32. I promised I wouldn't do this, but a Cameo:

    To 2:19:--that is called a fist-up, penultimate to being asked to squeal like a piggy.

    To 2:33, record every conversation. Just go to Radio Shack and ask for the little suction cup device. The suction cup an even go over the speaker of a cell phone.

    The plug goes in to a recording device. Evan an old fashioned tape recorder.

    Just tell them in the beginning that you are recording the conversation too. They will hemm and haw, and call for the supervisor, but they will have to speak with you.

    I have some conversations on tape that are really telling.

    So for all of you Civilized and Suburban Law Students that are thinking that you are taking a carefree canoe trip down the river of law that leads to success in life.........

    Sooner or later you will run into trouble with the Sallie Mae Hillbillies:

    And the biggest and most uncivilized and reprehensible hillbilly, Al Lord will ask:


    "What the hell you think you're doin?"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RRdRGkmszI

    Then of course:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gLN3QoN-q8&feature=related

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  33. Okay, I'm not sure if anybody is aware of this (a law grad might), but....

    With that much in direct loans NOT in ICRP, and if he's living a fairly frugal life (I.e about to default)....I'd consider opening an adversarial proceeding in BK court. If he was a law grad he should have the skills to file and rep himself. With 10 years of work history as a house painter, it's probably a good shot that he will NEVER make enough to repay that massive ball of debt off. Unless of course, he magically became a lawyer, but even then, with the interest...not likely.

    And if they ARE in ICRP...I'd still consider it. Considering he's that far in the hole, and that the tax liability is going to be HUGE by the time his 25 years are up....that is also grounds to discharge the debt. There was actually a recent case where the ruling was in the debtor's favor.

    http://www.bap1.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/bpgetopn.pl?OPINION=10-009P

    Or, one could run to another country. Depends on if one has the strength to make a case and file the massive amount of paperwork for the annoying cases.

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  34. To those decrying the (remote) possibility of a bailout, answer me this: did you bitch and whine when the banksters, automobile companies, airlines, and savings & loan thieves were bailed out - to the collective tune of TRILLIONS of dollars?!?! What purpose did these bailouts serve? Did you or your kids benefit from such plundering of the public treasure?

    http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/04/30/ownership

    "Sen. Dick Durbin, on a local Chicago radio station this week, blurted out an obvious truth about Congress that, despite being blindingly obvious, is rarely spoken: "And the banks -- hard to believe in a time when we're facing a banking crisis that many of the banks created -- are still the most powerful lobby on Capitol Hill. And they frankly own the place."

    You troglodytes can rest assured that your precious student loan system will not be harmed, as the Democrats and Republicans are both BOUGHT AND PAID FOR by the banks.

    Also, I am looking at this reader's 12/09/07 statement from Sallie Mae. At that time, he owed $177,122.01 at 9.00% interest - on an ORIGINAL LOAN AMOUNT of $79,480.

    In December 2007, his minimum monthly payment was $1,531.88, not the $2,042.91 he owes now. As you can see, in the span of less than three years, the accountholder owes an additional $94,806.80!! The reader also informed me - in a subsequent email - that about $20,000 of the original amount was for undergrad. Seeing that he graduated from law school more than 10 years ago, taking out about an extra $60K was not unreasonable.

    To 9:50 and 10:20 - learn the whole story before reaching baseless conclusions and small-minded judgments, trolls. By your logic, why should we pay for prisoners to eat? (Although I will agree with you that idiots who rack up $80K in credit card bills should not be allowed to write off those losses and gain a fresh start.) And kids who live in poor areas should take some “personal responsibility” for their situation and not expect others to pay for their public K-12 education, right?!?! Grow up and develop some basic common sense.

    This is a cautionary tale for any prospective law student. You may say to yourself, “After law school, I will only have $90K in student debt.” Just remember, that this man’s student debt has increased by a factor of 3.422 in over ten years. See how easy it is to pay off that $90K debt on a $35K income. You want kids and a house?! Good luck with that on your anemic salary.

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  35. m.almeida

    Discharging student loans in bankruptcy is nearly impossible in bankruptcy. Even under the house painters' situation, he would not meet the Brunner standard for discharging his student loans (I would know having clerked for a bankruptcy court). The only way I see the painter discharging his student loans through an AP is if he fell off of a scaffold and became a quadriplegic. Even then, assuming he could sue the scaffold manufacturer, the student loan companies could put a lien on his lawsuit award.

    I am afraid the only escape, sans killself, is to engage in self exile.

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  36. This grad wishes he had gone to debtor's prison instead of college:

    http://redtape.msnbc.com/2009/05/college-debt-so-crushing-grad-says-i-wish-id-gone-to-prison-instead.html

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  37. John Adam's dying words were:

    "Thomas Jefferson still survives"

    My dying words would be: "Pete Seeger still lives"

    This is for Sweet Judy Blue Eyes and Pete Seeger.

    May God help us all in these terrible times.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DejUPN4SksU&feature=related

    Ah Bartleby. Ah Humanity.

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  38. Bankruptcy attorney here, 3:57 is right. You will not get your student loans discharged.

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  39. Ok first I would like to say to all you people out there that act so high and mighty and act as if us this is all the grads fault F U. The reason people go to college is because you are lead to believe as my 10th grad history teacher put it that if you don’t go you will be flipping burgers at McDonalds also if you try for a job without a degree you are laughed so we “kids” had to play ball and get a degree. I tried for grants and got some I also tried for scholarships but didn’t get any so I had to get loans which have been nothing but a pain in the a**. For a while I was able to make payments with money I save from high school graduation and from selling stuff on eBay but that ran out and then the BS started. I talked and talked with these people on the phone and different ones tell you different things. Just a few days ago I paid the amount they asked and they told me if I did this that then they would deferred it and then out of the blue today I get a letter asking for more money which I don’t have because I can’t get a job and now it is delinquent. Oh and before you twits say I’m not trying I am .I when to job sites and put my resume out there applied for numerous job on there and usually don’t even hear back from them. So I try the number listed and of course get a machine which I leave a message on and still hear nothing back from them. So I tried the old fashion route and when around to business in my area and they told me no as well and some act as if “how dare you even come in here and ask if there is a job opening”. Also Before you think I am some spoil brat kid who thinks some jobs are beneath me and the reason I have not found a job is because I am picky I would like to say you are wrong I was looking into a stock boy job at my moms place and even sent my resume there hoping that maybe I would hear something back but of course I heard nothing back.

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  40. @4:54

    Wayne LaPiere loves you I am sure.

    Sleep well.

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  41. To those who steadfastly believe that it is immoral and wrong to not pay back loans:

    1) Every bank and law in this country discourages and makes it extremely difficult to pay back loans in full.

    2) It is in my opinion spectacularly unfair to expect people to understand modern day contracts. If you have to devote your time to family and a non-finance job all day, do you have the intelligence or energy to fully understand what you are signing? For example, do you read the I tunes terms and conditions in full every time you buy a song?

    3) Institutions are not regarded as immoral for failing to pay back loans.

    4) There is no social benefit from capitalizing loan principle amounts. The best argument is that it increases shareholder profits. What good do speculating shareholders add to society? I think less than even capitalistic lawyers.

    5) Most lending institutions take on little to no risk if student loans are not paid back. That is an unfair business advantage and not in the spirit of competition/capitalism.

    6) Every boomer that went to school did not have to worry about adjustable interest rates on homes or private loans.

    http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/laws/rules/8000-2200.html

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  42. 5:00PM

    I will shed no tears for you. I bet you made fun of blue collar workers while you were in college. While you were getting your law degree I bet you looked down on HVAC technicians, landscappers and garbage men. Guess what? While these humble people went to trade school and learned a VALUEABLE SKILL, you went to law school trying to capture a life of riches and prestige. You failed and now want a bailout. Kid, there are no refunds at the casino.

    I will break it down as if this was Russian roulette:

    T6: One bullet in a six chamber revolver means you have a 5/6 chance of winning.

    T7-T14: Two bullets in a six chamber revolver means you have a 4/6 chance of winning.

    T15-T25: Three bullets in a six chamber revolver means you have a 3/6 chance of winning.

    T26-T50: Four bullets in a six chamber revolver means you have a 2/6 chance of winning.

    T51-T100: Five bullets in a six chamber revolver menas you ave a 1/6 chance of winning.

    TTT/TTTT: Six bullets in a six chamber revolver means you LOSE.

    Make no mistake, student loans are no laughing matter.

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  43. to Anon 5:34:

    "I bet you made fun of blue collar workers while you were in college. While you were getting your law degree I bet you looked down on HVAC technicians, landscappers and garbage men."

    When did that kid ask for a bailout?

    When did he say he looked down at blue collar workers?

    When did he say he went to law school?

    When did he say he wanted you to shed tears?

    Oh that's right he implied he wants welfare because he spoke his mind. My bad

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  44. @5:34

    No, no,no,no and NO!

    I was working blue collar jobs from the age of 15. and still am, well neigh into my past middle age, heading into old age.

    I went into Law thinking I could help society.But at the end of a very long road, there was no one to help but my poor and miserable ass and state of poverty.

    And now you condemn me for my failure.
    Please have mercy ond do not judge unless you fully understand what the hell you are talking about.

    Youth is wasted on the young.

    Education is a fleeting thing to grasp. When it is gone, all that is left is a life of barbarism, and a life of touting the morality of the working classm n all its tattooed and pierced trappings.

    Blue collar workers get a pension, which makes them infinately superior and able to look down upon so many of the educated in this day and age, I suppose.

    How miserable it all is.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Nando, should public TTT get a plunger??? You, the Wayne State U, NIU, U of Idaho, etc.

    Btw, I added your blog on mine:

    www.courtroomdenizen.blogspot.com

    It's part scamblog, part PD blog. Currently trying to 'save' a person from blowing out their brains with 150K of nondischargeable debt.

    ReplyDelete
  46. I'm questioning my education
    Is my education who i am now?
    While you're deciding, i've been finding
    Looking around in the here and now
    If i've been taught from the beginning
    Would my fears now be winning?
    I'm questioning my own equation
    Is my own equation relevant somehow?
    The flags are waving, the news is breaking
    See the man who can't pick out his own tie
    If i've been taught from the beginning
    Would my fears now be winning?
    A wild world, figuring out the answers
    I'll be in my own dance and iiii...
    I'm questioning my education
    Rewind and what does it show?
    Could be, the truth it becomes you
    I'm a seed, wondering why it grows
    ...

    ReplyDelete
  47. September 30, 2010 5:34 PM is a DumbshitSeptember 30, 2010 at 6:56 PM

    This blog is brutally honest, and sometimes even manages to be funny. But not this article. I mean, this guy's student debt went from $79,000 to $272K. Did you pre-laws and apologist shitbirds take note of that? Did you sorry turds notice where the guy mentioned this?

    And before I sign off, to the boy saying these kids deserve their fate, lemme ask you this: If your 15 year old sister or daughter goes to a college party and gets sexually assaulted, should we tell her tough luck? I mean, her particular case only affects a few people. And the perp was just seeking some acction. Plus, she should've known young drunk guys pull shit like this.

    Do you hear your shitty logic? Does it strike you as immature and idiotic? It should.

    ReplyDelete
  48. 6:56PM

    Your logic is flawed. Students have free will to take out loans. No one put a gun to their head and told them "go be something, be a lawyer, at any cost." A sexually assualted victim is often over-powered against his/her will. I see a big difference there.

    ReplyDelete
  49. The rich rules over the poor, And the borrower becomes the lender's slave. Proverbs 27

    ReplyDelete
  50. Lehman Brothers Holdings, Inc.

    Bankruptcy Date: 9/15/2008

    Total Investments Pre-Bankruptcy:

    $691,063,000,000.00

    ReplyDelete
  51. No sympathy from me. Why didn't he keep a job ling enough to pay down the original 78k debt? I'm sorry but 10 years is enough for even a Touro grad to fund a job and keep it . Why were there multiple deferments? Did he even pay more than the minimum after he landed his first job? Why are these questions not posted in the original post? I just can't empathize- I'm at 45k debt nag graduated from another TTT in 2001 where I had 75K debt. I managed to KEEP my first job long enough to pay all my private loans off. I ate ramen noodles for dinner but loan repayment continues to be my top priority because I know the meaning of personal responsibility!

    ReplyDelete
  52. "There's no refunds at the casino."

    Really? What did Goldman Sachs get? What did AIG get? What did GM get? What did Citi and Bank of America and Fifth-Third and all these silly companies get? What did tons and tons of reckless homeowners in the country get with foreclosure relief? What is bankruptcy?!

    Why do all of these individuals get relief from their actual casino-like behavior, but not students who were merely doing what they've been programmed to do since birth under the religion of the meritocracy?

    I'm all for personal responsibility, but that went out the window a long frickin' time ago in this country, and holding one small class to be personally responsible for their debts while letting every one else off the hook is basically slavery without chains.

    ReplyDelete
  53. 9:00PM

    The difference between the AIG bailout and bailing student loans out is that AIG was too big to fail. You can't say the same for students that were suckered into TTT programs and took out huge sums of money to pursue a pipe dream. ANd don't give me that "ingrained from the craddle to go to college, law school, etc." bullshit. We all have choices. Some people chose to go into business (e.g., carpet cleaning, pizza shot, etc.) and made it big without higher education while others that snubbed the blue collar life gambled it all on a white collar riches and prestige dream. Yes the banks and the students gambled. One of them have to get thrown under the bus and as Obama said: "the banking industry was too big to fail."

    ReplyDelete
  54. Lol

    No one is asking for a bailout

    Just equal treatment

    You are either part of the problem or part of the solution

    Stop being part of the problem

    ReplyDelete
  55. The banks and companies have agreed to pay back their bailouts. Homedebtor's are losing their homes for they can't pay their loans. Student debtors want to stick the bill to the taxpayers.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Private student loans were dischargeable up until 2005 and will be again if enough noise is made, so make some noise.

    Tomorrow, I am going to set up appointments with both my Senator's liasons to streniously advocate for an amendment reinstating private student loan discharge.

    I am not going to my grave with this debt hanging around my neck because I can't get a job because no job exists for me. I thank the lying banks and schools for that.

    ReplyDelete
  57. @1022

    The banks can pay back their GRANTS because they were GIVEN to them for FREE courtesy of the TAXPAYER

    And 95percent of home loans are OWNED by the taxpayer. They are MERELY serviced by banks

    Hi. I'm earth. Have we met?

    ReplyDelete
  58. 8:15PM

    Painter Guy here.

    You ask some very good questions. I would like to answer them. Later today though, because I need a few spare moments.

    I have what I think is an interesting story-- about how I found my first job after Touro, and what that first job was like.

    If you would like to refine or add to those questions, do so, and I will reply.
    It seems like I should.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Touro Law school is a Toilet. It costs over 40K a year to go there. I attended this sorry excuse for an institution - before transferring out. Its most certainly all about the $$ for this school.

    The teaching at this school is horrendous, many of these so called "law professors" never be allowed to teach at other schools. Honest to god, there isn't a single decent professor at this place. Even if they are fortunate enough to get a decent younger professor - that person is gone after a year or two.

    The only thing this school really has to offer is the new(er) campus located close to the courts. But this really does nothing for the school. There are around 13 law schools competing for the New York legal job market (including Virginia, Duke and the D.C. schools) with Touro being DEAD LAST amongst them.

    So word of advice. Unless your NY law degree says Columbia, NYU or Fordham - its not worth anything.

    A friend of mine just finished his first year there. He was applying for summer internships (non-paid) - and as soon as he even mentioned Touro to the "hiring" personnel - their response would be "thank you for your time".

    ReplyDelete
  60. Call me Bane

    @ 7:38 and 9:00

    Wow yet another more people that thinks all the people that when to college snub blue collar workers. I really get tried of this same old BS from people like you I also get tried of hearing that some people made it big without college degree. While that is true that is very rare and probably will not happen too a lot of people. What will happen is if you do get a blue collar job lets say a bagger at food lion. You will be able to work your way up to lets say a cashier but that is probably as far as you will get because to become a manger at Food Lion you have to have guest what A 4 YEAR DEGREE and I know what your thinking but what about the years of work put in there well to them that mean nothing. I know this because a friend of mine worked there and put in the time and learned but is absolutely not allowed to move up until she gets a degree. Also to the people that talk about personal responsibility. Back when your are where young others mainly the same twits here that are now saying its your fault encouraged you to go to college and told you that if you didn’t you would whine up with a sh#t job. So you went because who wants a sh#t job only to find that when you get out no one is hiring.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Having graduated from TTTTouro, I concur.... its a toilet designed as a money maker for its faculty aand administration. it was granted its state charter when a deal was struck in the men's bathroom between the state regulator and its president. It has become the last refuge for Nassau/Suffolk's political hacks funded by government backed non-dischargable student loans.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Tons of law school grads end up worse off than those who didnot even attend college. The latter group worked full-time, perhaps learning a skilled trade, and did not accrue any student debt.

    A lot of these guys were able to save money and buy a house at a young age, and put some money in savings. Many of these guys ended up marrying some hot redneck chick. Said redneck wife is able to be pampered with manicures, peds, flowers, gifts. She can work if she wants to but it is not an absolute necessity. Agaion because she is not helping some idiot pay off his $130K in combined student loans.

    In the end he is better off at age 30 than most JDs. He is in a position to pay his house in full in the next 10 years. No student loans tied around his neck. His wife is hotter than yours, notwithstanding her strange blue & orange pedicure and gaudy tastes in jewelry.

    The same worker is better off than you at age 40 too. By then he is close to buying his house in full, if he has not already done so. You lived in a shitty apartment up until your mid-thirties. You can look forward to paying your house off maybe by age 60. His redneck wife if she has taken care of herself is probably still a MILF. Yours is dumpy, as she has had to work in miserable office settings and call centers to help pay the bills. The redneck MILF still gets her monthly pedicures and works out at home. Probably still gives head too.

    Do I sounfd like I am loooking down on this blue-collar worker? I just pointed out that he is smarter, has practical skills that are in demand, and is better off financially. All with a hot wife. Better yet, they probably have sex more often b/c they do not have as many money arguments as the JD holder. Even if this couple goes off on a shopping spree that they cannot afford, they have the option of getting this wiped clean in bankruptcy court. You, overeducated dolt that you are, do not have this option.

    ReplyDelete
  63. @5:00am

    I couldn't agree more.

    Everyday as I leave my parents house in the Suburbs to catch the train down town to my document review "job" - I get to see my neighbor, who is the same age as me (27) - who is a PLUMBER, happily leaving his OWN house, that is bought and paid for. Not to mention his fully restored 1970's muscle car sitting in the third garage.

    Here I am with 7 years of school - 150k in debt. All the while, this individual runs a one person plumbing business. He got one year trade certificate at the local community college. Grand total for tuition?? -- $1,200.

    What makes it even more sad/funny (depending which way you look at it) he offered my little brother a summer job as his full time assistant - for a cool $25 an hour. Thats $5 an hour more than I make at my doc review job.

    Ouch.

    ReplyDelete
  64. 6:38-

    That is the paradox in today's world.
    I know a retired fireman with a late model porsche. He took me for a ride in it, and the thing flew!

    My Grandfather never finished college, but he was a successful businessman and very intelligent. He used to carry a card in his wallet, and would hand it to people that he met once in a while. It said something like:

    "That's the saddest story I've ever heard.
    Please accept my most sincere condolences"

    He also would often say:

    "What do you want? Your money back?"

    The nurses used to say that to him in his old age, and even though he was in very poor condition from advanced Parkinson's disease, he would still manage a smile when he heard that.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Ridiculous. So this Touro Law Grad can paint houses, but he can't figure out how to represent clients? Why doesn't he just do BOTH?

    What you failed to ask, Mr. Nando, is whether this guy even WANTS to practice law in the first place. Probably not.

    It would be interesting to see this Law Grad's "attempts" to find legal work, above and beyond spraying American with his resume.

    ReplyDelete
  66. If legal jobs were so scarce and lawyers were in such abundant supply, then legal services would actually be affordable for mainstream America...you would not find lawyers charging $175-200/hr.

    The prices would drop as supply outstipped demand. Costs would drop to $100/hr or $50/hr instead. But presently, this is not the case.

    ReplyDelete
  67. This is for 6:47. When you're $270,000 in debt, it isn't easy financially to start a law firm. I'm going through this right now and the start up costs aren't insignificant. On top of it, it might take 2-5 years to actually be profitable. When you owe that much money, you can't afford to open your own shop.

    ReplyDelete
  68. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  69. @6:47

    Painter Guy here.

    I did do legal work after law after school for two years.

    Couldn't pass the bar.It was the most baffling and confusing test I have ever taken. I was and am terrible at issue spotting. My score was not even close to passing, and yes I took a review course. Twice.

    Would you hire a lawyer that took the bar 8 times?

    I didn't take it that many times, but there are lawyers out there that have.

    A lawyer at Siben and Siben tried to console me when I was in his office about 12 years ago. He told me of a practicing judge that took the bar 4 times. He didn't say who the judge was.

    Do you want to be in that judges court?

    After a decade, your life becomes what it is. I am a master at the trade of House Painting and Plastering. It is my life now. I painted my way through college, and started when I was in High School. Thank God I have a means to put food on the table. Do you begrudge me that?

    But you are entitled to think what you want.
    Put me aside as a disgrace for a moment, and put Touro aside as well, and answer this:

    I'm on the hook for the loans, but a lot of real instant tax dollar money has been made over the last 10 or even 3 years,as you can see,by Sallie Mae and the banks with my loan.

    Do you approve of that?

    Also, I'd be happy to describe my job search efforts. Sprayed sometimes, and cold calling at others. More targeted efforts at other times.

    And I never said I wanted a bailout. Others might say that and they are entitled to their opnions.

    Anything can happen. I could win the lottery. Marry a rich woman like Arnold. (Now there's a thought.)

    As far as Touro goes, there were a few excellent faculty members and teachers in my opinion. I'm not out to do a complete hatchet job on the place.

    There were also the not so good teachers, whom I won't mention.

    If you want to know anything more-just ask. I am still waiting to hear from someone from last night.

    I'm perfectly aware that I will be rendered a complete fool before all of this is over.

    How does one go about analyzing a life? Anyone's life? Are you such a good biographer?

    In the end, what can I say? I can count all my bones?

    ReplyDelete
  70. I am not gonna take it, no I am not gonna take it, I am not gonna pay my student loans anymore. I just cannot make it so I am not gonna take it, I am not gonna take it anymore. Thought I'd be a big lawyer but I just ended up a loser, so I am not gonna pay them student loans anymore. I will scream for a bailout to get others to payout, so I don't have to pay my student loans anymore. I discovered too late that nothing in life is free so I gotta get others to pay my bills forevermore. I will scream that education and medical are rights, but I don't want to fight about getting you to pay that bill forevermore.

    ReplyDelete
  71. 9:55

    Who on this blog said they don't intend to pay their student loans anymore?

    You are making the large assumption that the borrower actually has the financial means and/or capability, or has money hidden somewhere.

    And that last line is not clear. I needs editing maybe, because it contradicts the previous sentences, and it also brings in the red herring of "Medical".

    But you don't realize that your tax dollars are serving two purposes:

    1. To bail out the impoverished holder of the loan.
    2. To enrich Sallie Mae and others enormously.

    Does number 2 seem right to you?

    ReplyDelete
  72. Bravo Nando

    Keep fighting the good fight. It looks like the people with a vested interest in the student loan scam are getting nervous that the bankruptcy reforms might actually pass.

    If not this year, certainly the next. You can't fight the inevitable forever.

    ReplyDelete
  73. @Chris:

    "If legal jobs were so scarce and lawyers were in such abundant supply...costs would drop to $100/hr or $50/hr instead. But presently, this is not the case."

    You're making the grave mistake of applying rational, elementary economics to an irrational system.

    ReplyDelete
  74. Written in 2002...

    "Let's look at some specific examples of corporatism....

    Sallie Mae, the government agency which supervises student loans. The government has a system of directly-financed public universities, but is has also in effect annexed private universities. Cleverly, it uses a relatively small amount of public money to package the flow of a much larger amount of private capital to tuition. The principal problem with this is that it has become a subsidy machine for the spiraling cost of higher education. There is also the problem that any institution receiving federal funds becomes susceptible to regulations that otherwise wouldn't be legal. Bribes-if-you-do are a much less disruptive means of manipulating behavior than sanctions-if-you-don't, and corporatism hates disruption and loves business as usual. One way to interpret corporatism is as a systematic way for government to distribute bribes for submission to its authority."

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1144682/posts

    ReplyDelete
  75. If someone told you that you can be the next Donald Trump by shelling out $150K in student loans to learn the "Art of the Deal" and you went for it, then you don't deserve a bailout. You were fooled, plain and simple. I fought in a war, paid taxes and busted my hump to support a system that helps the lazy (e.g., welfare queens driving pink cadillacs). Enough with the bailouts. Learn to swim with the debt or sink.

    ReplyDelete
  76. costs would drop to $100/hr or $50/hr instead. But presently, this is not the case."

    WHERE is this not the case? I can tell you surely have not been out there on your own practicing law. It is unbelievably cutthroat. Your example is akin to comparing a vascular surgeon's rates to that of a family practice intern, and equally fallacious.

    Go shill elsewhere.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Too many lawyers with too many non-dischargable student loans mean more 'hot coffee failure to warn' lawsuits to pay Aunt Sallae. TTTTouro had 1 excellent and 2 good professors, maybe 3 fair ones. It is a diploma mill, pure and simple.

    ReplyDelete
  78. To 1:05:

    Wow Dan! I bet some of the best political scienttists and Economic professors in the world couldn't spit-out an answer like that!

    I'm being sarcastic, but seriously that statement is over my head.

    I thought Sallie Mae is a Private Company.
    The whole system is all so complex and confusing.

    And to 1:05. Maybe you don't hear it often enough, but I thank you and every Veteran. Your comment doubly shames me and every debtor.

    ReplyDelete
  79. "Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?"

    Johnny Rotten

    ReplyDelete
  80. Johnny Rotten may be gone, but he is not forgotten.

    By the way, where have you gone Colonel Sanders?

    Our Nation turns it's lonely eyes to you.

    ReplyDelete
  81. http://ip-whois-lookup.com/lookup.php?ip=99.1.96.47

    Hey Chris. It appears that you are done licking your wounds, after I pointed out that you are a law student at IUPUI, i.e. Indiana University-Indianapolis, and NOT a practicing lawyer in the Indianapolis area. Apparently, you have not heard of lawyers in large cities taking on an entire case for $300-$400, i.e. from beginning to final disposition. Please get out more often, and you will see the realities of this dwindling, shrinking “profession.”

    @7:38,

    Learn how to argue constructively, you emotional and mental deficient, i.e. “I can’t make my point without personally insulting others ‘cause I don’t have any facts to back up my argument.” If that is your concept of logic, then you should ask your law school for a refund. Actually, this is also a failure of your parents and grade school teachers.

    http://ip-whois-lookup.com/lookup.php?ip=67.165.12.83

    Some law school industry apologist cockroach in the Doylestown, PA area has been busy posting idiotic comments on this blog in the last few days. This is most likely the “jeremiahwright” of JDU. If I am correct, then you need a hobby.

    http://qfora.com/jdu/profile.php?threadId=12694&user=jeremiahwright

    This person is one of the nastiest fools supporting the antics of the fraudulent law school industry. Look at the times of yesterday’s nasty, asinine comments, i.e. 9:50 am, 10:20 am, and 10:22 pm. This user was on TTR at those times, and made various “actions” on this blog.

    “Jeremiah,” when will you learn to make a cogent argument as to why law school is a wise investment? Apparently, you don’t let the facts get in the way of your opinion. To date, you have not made a single valid point as to why the scam-bloggers are wrong about this industry. All you have offered are ad hominem attacks and angry rumblings. Yes, that will get you far in life.

    Go ahead, the floor is yours. How does it benefit society to impoverish LEGIONS of young people – many of whom are minorities and those of modest means? Can you answer me that? Is it a better use of public funds to ensure that Albert Lord of Sallie Mae makes an extra $50 million, as opposed to providing college grads with some debt relief?

    ReplyDelete
  82. Anon 2:05 p.m.:

    Sallie Mae is currently a corporation. In 2002 it was still undergoing the process of being privatized:

    http://www.allbusiness.com/company-activities-management/company-structures-ownership/7273396-1.html

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  83. As a public service announcement, I would like to also tell folks that since you cannot get rid of student loans in Chapter 7 bankruptcy, your ability to reorganize your finances in a Chapter 13 are limited by the amount of student loans you have. For example under section 109(e) of the Code, a debtor cannot be a Chapter 13 debtor and have more than $360K of unsecured debt. Let's say you are this painter dude and owe $271K, have $30K in credit card debt and a house that is underwater by 60K, you are shit out of luck trying to reorganize your finances in Chapter 13. You are stuck with having to pay for a cost prohibitive Chapter 11 or be a Debtor that has no chapter of relief. The student loan mess has gotten out of control. Where is John Wayne?

    ReplyDelete
  84. To 2:48 Dan:
    I meant no offense.Just kidding around.

    to 2:56:

    Yes, the nuts and bolts of bankruptcy are fraught with so many twists and turns.

    The people I resent the most are the bankruptcy attorneys, who are the biggest hypocrites alive.

    If congress decided to forgive student debt tomorrow, all the bankruptcy attorneys that are whores, and so fucking nasty yesterday to student loan debtors--would suddenly become gentry ladies, and open their doors for business.

    So to all the Bankruptcy attorneys out there.

    Fuck You! You bunch of self-serving inhumane bastards and hypocrites!

    I hope the new legislation someday will pass all of you by, and make student loans dischargeable without the involvement of any bankruptcy attorney.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Unlike the bankruptcy attorney devils, the rest of us are all heirs, and born into the position of being heirs to an inheritance.

    One and all. Whether we like it or not.

    We have all inherited the last 80 to 90 years.

    Safe to say anyone past that is dead and doesn't have to worry.

    So, blue collar or white collar, breathe the air. A glass of water is sweet.

    These are things that no money in the world can buy.

    And of course, stamp your feet.
    Stand with a fist.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytcZIfvSWW4

    ReplyDelete
  86. "The people I resent the most are the bankruptcy attorneys, who are the biggest hypocrites alive.

    If congress decided to forgive student debt tomorrow, all the bankruptcy attorneys that are whores, and so fucking nasty yesterday to student loan debtors--would suddenly become gentry ladies, and open their doors for business."

    Out of everyone in this system, you resent banko attorneys? Why?!?!? Because they're rude to people that can't really be their customers? How is that any different from any other business?

    The bankruptcy attorneys just follow federal law. I don't really think that I can fault them for anything since they don't make the asinine policies. I don't see them as a group lobbying against student loan forgiveness - they'd welcome it wholeheartedly (plus, it'd create new business for people to enter the bankruptcy field). Don't piss on potential allies.

    Piss on the judges who enforce this unconscionable system. Piss on the Congressmen who passed the laws. Piss on the banks who lobbied for it. Piss on the voters who don't vote out the corrupt idiots in power. Piss on the ABA. Piss on the administrators at law schools. Piss on our sick consumer-media society that has spent decades glorifying this stupid "wealthy" profession (i.e., marketing for law schools). Piss on BigLaw. Piss on the localized bar associations. Piss on non-legal field employers who invidiously discriminate against JDs with the open and clear approval of the courts.

    With so many wonderful options for abject hatred, you're choosing bankruptcy attorneys?

    ReplyDelete
  87. Yes because I was practically grabbed by the scruff of the neck and thrown out on the curb by two of your colleague bastards.

    Do you want their names?

    By the way, I have to throw out extreme statements.

    How else is any of this shit going to get any attention?

    People out there, especially to the younger people---the best way to pick a lawyer's brains is to go in and act like a rube and a dumb Dectetive Columbo. (as in the role played by Peter Falk, by the same name?)

    The lawyer will be more than happy to step in and correct the good Lieutenant (Columbo)His or her ego won't allow for anything else, in most cases.

    Ask a lawyer a good question, and he or her will be happy to talk about how smart they are and will listen to themselves for hours.......

    Case in point here.

    No harm done here anyway.

    But j-dogged--why didn't you share all of this before now?

    This blog is pretty much a think-tank, and I am not under oath or on the stand.

    But thank you for your honesty.

    And Honesty is what we need most of all now.

    By the way, do you think the cowman and the farmer will ever be friends?

    ReplyDelete
  88. Watch another poor sap encouraging others to apply to law school.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKfXJQS26dA

    And we wonder why this profession has gone downhill. There are not enough fucking jobs for the volume of JDs being shot out every year. Der! If you cannot grasp this simple truth, then you are indeed one stupid cocksucker.

    ReplyDelete
  89. I am meeting with Senator Menendez's liaison on Tuesday and Senator Lautenberg's liaison on Thursday. I pay nearly $50K a year in property taxes and almost as much as the painter owns in student loans in personal income tax. I worked hard to be where I am and acted responsibly in paying off my debts. I sacrificed the first five years of my professional life living in morning side heights in a rat infested studio sleeping on a bed frame made from milk crates. I had a 12 inch b&w TV with no cable, just an antenna wrapped in tin foil. I used a public pay phone on St. Nicholas Avenue (getting mugged a couple of times in the process) to communicate with friends and family. Kids today in college campuses live plush lifestyles with their LCD TVs and Infinity cable packages where they watch softcore porn and all the ppvs. They carry Iphones and sport the latest fashion trend from homosexual clothing emporiums such as abercrombie and fitch or hollister. They use student loans to live said lifestyle while in school. I paid my dues and now these punk kids from today's generation want a free ride on my dime? Over my god damn patriotic body will that happen.

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  90. @8:24

    I suggest you don't slander "homosexual clothing emporiums" while at the Senators' offices, given the probable crowd. Also, why stop with student loans? While you're there, could you ask for a repeal of the bankruptcy code altogether? Damn thing is letting all these credit-card swiping, STD-ridden perverts and free-loaders off the hook.

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  91. @8:24

    You sound like Cotton Mather.
    But yeah, the porn and the Iphones will prove to be the ruination of us all!

    But you don't have to worry about a thing. Going to a bankruptcy attorney today reminds me of the old monty python cheese shop sketch.

    The sign on the door says "Bankruptcy", until you start asking for the service or product.

    Then you discover there is nothing available at all, and the whole thing becomes quite ridiculous.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3KBuQHHKx0&feature=related

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  92. @Nando: "Apparently, you have not heard of lawyers in large cities taking on an entire case for $300-$400, i.e. from beginning to final disposition."


    Complete bull. Buddy, YOU need to get out more often. I'd love for you find ONE attorney who is willing to work for $50/hr in any city.

    The problem of ACCESS to legal system is the REAL problem for middle America. Legal service rates are astronomical. Guaranteed that you couldn't get past a summary judgment in any trial for less than $5,000. And that's just one case.

    Btw, I couldn't care less if you know my IP #. My IP number makes me even more "anonymous" than the name "Chris" (which may or may not even be my real name).

    ReplyDelete
  93. @8:24,

    Take your 'patriotic' ass over a cliff in a Segway and die in the fire, miserable asshole.

    Cry me a fucking river, pal. You worked hard for what you have? Join the crowd, dipshit. On top of that, you didn't graduate into a global shitty economy with $100K in student loans.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Painter-
    Before you press that "Post Comment" button, please take a second or two and read the text that you have typed out. When I read your posts (and yes, it's obvious which ones are yours), I honestly have no idea what the hell you are attempting to communicate.
    In any event, I feel for you. Keep your head up.

    ReplyDelete
  95. While on the topic of Monty Python:

    This reminds me of my graduation ceremony from Law School. I "Walked" a very silly walk.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZlBUglE6Hc

    But it all sure did cost me a lot of money...........


    And I never quite learned how to argue as well as this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

    ReplyDelete
  96. 6:42

    Painter Guy here:

    I go in and out of lucidity on some of my posts because I've fallen off the wagon and am fucking alcoholic. The last three years of debt increases are driving me totally crazy.

    It is the only way to disappear into the fog for a while and forget about the horror of my crushing debt.

    Can you blame me?

    This kind of indentured debt-slavery or whatever it is called didn't exist when the AA was founded, and the AA program with all it's the little slogans have no application.

    I'm sorry, but someone has to start talking honestly about all this. People are more than just figures in a ledger.

    But here's a slogan:

    "Why drink till you're sick, when you can stay sober and be a real dick?"

    But seriously, there is a very nice fellow called Don In London on youtube, and I sometimes put him on.

    Any more questions, just ask. I'm an open book. Somebody has to be by now.

    But still, I was thinking: Do you think the US will ever convert to the metric system?

    Click

    ReplyDelete
  97. Writing is an essential part of a legal career. Some of you are fucking awful writers. You should have seen this coming.

    ReplyDelete
  98. @dumbass Chris:

    See this:

    http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/lgl/1983185643.html

    32k a year for a civil rights and criminal defense attorney (not even PI or traffic law!). That's 15 dollars an hour base if the schmuck only works 40 hours a week. More likely is that he'll work 60 hours a week or more and make around 10 dollars an hour.

    This job took me 2 minutes to find and it will likely get 100+ applications.

    ReplyDelete
  99. It is beyond comical to me when people accuse students or poor (and even if they are lazy) deadbeats of taking their taxpayer money

    If the people had any idea ( which they don't thx to the media) how much more of their tax payer dollars are stolen daily in the billions by corporatists that accept govt guarantees thy would shit their pants

    Poor worthless people steal infinitely less than many immoral corporatists. That's is why I will never ever oppose student or any welfare under the current scheme. To say it is a lesser of two evils dowdy even begin to tell the story

    ReplyDelete
  100. Chris, just do a basic search and see how many unpaid volunteer positions that are available to lawyers. When you see how many $10 an hour positions there are for JDs and lawyers you just might shit your pants. And after mommy wipes yer ass for you and changes your diaper, will you come back here and tell everyone more shit like this:

    "If legal jobs were so scarce and lawyers were in such abundant supply, then legal services would actually be affordable for mainstream America...you would not find lawyers charging $175-200/hr.

    The prices would drop as supply outstipped demand. Costs would drop to $100/hr or $50/hr instead. But presently, this is not the case."

    ReplyDelete
  101. Chris, as a solo, I can truly say you are utterly clueless as to the state of practice today. Further, I personally know a Michigan law grad who just got a temp job after 1.5 years being unemployed.

    Dream on.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Painter Guy again:

    I have a nice big pot of Chicken Soup on, with everything but the kitchen sink in it.
    There is something very calming and meditative in going about household tasks while a pot of soup is on for several hours. Especially in the cool, Autumn weather in NY.

    Here is a quote by Sir Walter Raleigh:

    One book among the rest is dear to me.
    'Tis when a man has tired himself in deed
    Against the world, and falling back to write
    Sated with love, or crazed with vanity,
    Bemused with drink, or maimed by fortune's spite
    Sets down his Paternoster and his Creed.

    I would like to share a little story concerning my work experiences after Law School.
    It is just a small sample of my world after Law School, and my having to do my best to bring in money through employment by any means.

    I have other similar stories, and a Novel I am working on that is largely autobiographical.
    The name of the novel is: Painting Henry Ford's House (And other tales of the Painting Trade)

    But anyway, I'll post the chapter in another post.

    It is all true,with artistic embellishments, and good for a laugh anyway.

    ReplyDelete
  103. Painter Guy again:

    Here is an excerpt from the chapter.
    The Chapter is called: Hey Cunt!


    "Hey Cunt"


    ...........the sanding over, I was proceded with filling some holes in a downstairs bathroom wall. I heard the heavy footsteps of the foreman--a swaggering man. He was a few years older than myself, named Joseph, and he was approaching from the hallway.

    "Hey Cunt!" he called.

    I didn't answer. It was his usual game and I knew it. He repeated this game almost every day on the job.

    "Hey" he shouted again. "Hey Cunt!" He sounded angry about something.

    Annoyed I answered: "What do you want?"

    "You name 'da Cunt?" he inquired as he entered the room and leered with obvious amusement.

    But this old joke wasn't funny to me anymore, and
    I rolled my eyes.

    But he persisted with satisfaction:

    "I call, and you answer. "You ta'must name be da Cunt" he deduced, and his grin broadened. He had the mind of a child in some ways, and a dumb, monkeyish grin, broad enough to reveal the gaps between his front teeth, and also broad enough to reveal the chimpanzee like gaps where two of his upper molars used to be.

    "Come here Bitch!" he continued.

    He paused when I glanced away for a moment.

    "HELLO!" he shouted, thinking I wasn't paying attention.

    "Yeah I hear you, I said" and I shook my head in annoyance.

    "YOu hear me? Yo got de problem?" he asked with rising irritation.

    "No I said. "No I hear you."

    It's a strange new parlance, I reflected. One man now calls another man a "Bitch"

    I puzzled over this a little while and thought:

    'If a woman can be outraged if a man calls her a bitch, even in jest, how is a man supposed to feel when his boss/foreman says it?

    But then I concluded that perhaps I am just getting old. A new language for a newer world. Lingo used to express dominance of one man over another. Maybe some kind of expression of a new culture--passed down from the institutions of higher learning and now expressed in the streets.

    Or started in the prisons, and now expressed outside the walls.

    He's trying to make me quit', I thought. I was as John Donnelly had boasted: "We don't fire people. It's too much paperwork. We make them quit."

    ReplyDelete
  104. This is to the poster who says kids have it bad today graduating with huge debt and into a shitty economy with dismal job prospects.

    While you were being coddled by mommy or perhaps not even born yet, you were spared by the effects of a worse recession in the late 70s and early 80s. Perhaps I did not graduate with $100k of student loans but we had it harder back then. Interest rates on mortgages were usually 22% compared to today's 4% making home ownership easier today. It's not my fault that many irresponsible kids wanted to buy mcmansions to one up the other. In 1975 you could not lease a BMW. Today you can lease a $100K car with average credit. Heck you can even read Kant while taking a shit on your Iphone. I had to haul ass in 18 inches of snow to the library in 1977 to finish my honors thesis. You can take classes in your underwear while logging on to your computer while earning A's just for breathing. Cry me a river about having it bad today.

    I have prepared what I will tell my senators. America has become weak because in the face of adversity, it asks for bailouts. What happened to the can do (fuck "yes we can") attitude that made this country great after WWII? The painter person went to law school and could not pass the bar exam. That's too bad. However, he stopped trying to pass. It's not like you can only take it 3 times before you are barred from taking it again (which the ABA should do since any moron can pass that exam). If I go into a store and I break something, I am on the hook for it. You went to law school, you should pay for it, not the taxpayers.

    ReplyDelete
  105. 6:27: Your comments reveal a shocking misunderstanding of our ever-so-brief, fleeting, and very artificial, period of "prosperity" as enjoyed by your fortunate sub-generation post-WWII.

    We had a prosperity based upon the fact ALL OF EUROPE, as well as Japan, and other countries, were in ruins after that conflict. As such, our industry fed consumer and industrial demand into this gaping, temporary chasm of foreign non-productiveness. It would not, and could not, last.

    Oh, the cockiness of one born on third, mistaking same for a triple.

    ReplyDelete
  106. The above poster seems to think that because I am a baby boomer that I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth. FYI, I grew up in poverty, raised by a single parent. I worked hard as a teenager to save money for college and worked fulltime during college to save for law school. I took out student loans (which I repaid first before moving to the upper east side) and worked from the ground up to be where I am today. I did not get handouts and this prosperity you talk about is some fairytale illusion you use as an excuse for your own failure. Born on third? Try starting from pee wee league and working all the way to the majors while facing every curveball, slider and split fingered fastball. Today's generation was pitched to using the softball underhanded method. The economy is horrible yet many prosper. Besides your leader declared the recession to be over as of June 2009. What is your excuse? Oh yes the law school scam. Look, law school is expensive. Is it worth it? Probably not in this day. Too many people went to law school thinking it would be a meal ticket to riches. Many kids, especially circa 2001-2007 thought they could get a corner office and be offered partnership within 6 years. It took me 8 years of busting my hump and sacrificing a marriage to make partner. That is the problem with the current bumper crop, you don't know the meaning of sacrifice or living responsibly.

    It reminds me of an associate I had to fire in 2004. He had just leased a BMW and was more concerned about losing the car than the job. I explained to him that I drove a 1976 Chevy Nova through 1987. In 1988, I bought a Honda Accord. I drove that car to the ground until it gave up on me 300,000 miles and 12 years of service. It wasn't until 13 years after I made partner that I bought a luxury car. Kids now want to drive a McLaren out of law school. It just doesn't work that way.

    Lastly, if you want your goddamn student loans forgiven in bankruptcy, especially law school loans, then I believe you should forfeit your law/professional license. Enough with the free rides and this bullshit sense of entitlement.

    ReplyDelete
  107. Let's recount some of the facts for newcomers:

    1. The guy graduated from Touro Law in 1999-2000, at least 10 years ago.

    2. He failed the bar exam at least 8 times which explains why his salary for at least the first 2 years was either non-existent or extremely low paying. No info whether he was unemployed during that 2-3 year time span or whether he was employed at all. (as an aside - I find it ridiculous that Touro Grad assumes that the bar exam has any measure of adequacy in the legal profession. As he correctly was told, there are not just 1 but SEVERAL judges sitting in NY state/civil/village/local courts who were bar failures. I am actually living proof of this given I failed numerous times (2 years consecutively) but still managed to find A legal job and currently practice law. This argument falls flat on its face because once you pass the sucker, it doesn't matter how many times you fail.)

    3. He admits he has an alcohol problem.

    4. No details given as to why multiple deferments were requested. Touro grad graduated with $79K in TOTAL DEBT. I believe this amount quadrupled to $271K over the course of 10 years because he never made payments, requested deferments, and either paid ONLY the minimum amount due, missed/skipper payments, or just let fees accrue without investigating consolidation options. It just bogs my mind how someone could let 79K balloon to a ridiculous figure.

    5. No adequate response to the "personal responsibility" issues raised by other commenters. Did Touro grad ask for parents to help out at all while retaking the bar exam? Did Touro grad bother working TWO jobs to at least make a serious dent with the loans? What expenses did he have? How many jobs did he hold that resulted in his spotty employment history? Did he ever want to actually PRACTICE law? Did he ever consult a financial planner to help himself dig out of this debt?

    There are more questions but I am too tired to think of them right now - I am sure some TTT bloggers will add their 2 cents as well..

    ReplyDelete
  108. (Directed at OCT 2 10:00 PM)

    Congratulations on sacrificing a marriage to make partner. Hopefully the ex had fun blowing Juan the Filipino poolboy while you were busting your hump making partner. In other words she was getting humped while you busted yours. And she probably recieves alimony too. You sure have your priorities straight, dontcha?

    ReplyDelete
  109. to 6:27

    Painter guy here--

    Good Morning Cotton Mather:

    Don't forget to ring all those Senators ears about the Porn.

    But I think anyone outside the field of law would agree that anymore than two attempts at the Bar Exam suggests potential incomptence.

    Especially if that person is now a Partner in a Law Firm.

    That is really alarming news.

    Just another problem with the profession.

    But would you have a problem if every lawyer and judge was obligated to reveal to the public how many times they took the Bar?

    That seems only fair to potential clients.

    And to 10:43--

    Glad you are off your duff and interested in the issues. That counts for something, even though you dont know the full story and are merely speculating.

    If Nando keeps this post going for a few more days I'd be glad to answer. It depends--

    the postings have a way of petering out after a week, after everyone has had their say.

    But nando said it very early on--

    I am not alone. My story is not very different than the many, many stories you will see on Michael Collinges site. If it wasn't for the work of people like Nando, Collinge and Cryn Johanssen, I wouldn't have had the courage to come forward after years of quiet desperation and silence.

    But read the stories, and then prepare a biography for each and every one. Explain them all away as so many humbugs.

    You did it to me.

    http://www.studentloanjustice.org/victims.htm

    Go there and read the Horror storys. Also Robert Applebaum had posted a lot of similar stories in the past.

    The only difference between me and those people is numerical.

    And the bigger the loan is, the faster it grows.
    Law Students start out with the highest amounts it seems, and the weakest job prospects.


    And not even working 24/7 at 2 or 3 jobs can keep up.

    Did you ever hear of Sissyphus?


    Sincerely, Painter guy.

    Tip of the day: If you are paining with oil paint, and don't want the bother and mess and nasty fumes of rinsing and cleaning the brush out in paint thinner; wrap the brush in plastic or foil and put it in the freezer.

    It will not harden and will be ready for use the next day.

    When the job is finished, you can throw the brush away if you like, and never have to deal with all the paint thinner and toxic fumes.

    ReplyDelete
  110. Recently, an attorney I knew who graduated about 5 years ago kept trying to tell a non-attorney they should go to law school even though her own personal list of horror stories about the legal profession is longer than mine!

    When it boils down to it, she has basically been involved in a 5 year long job hunt where she's had to fall back upon sole practitioner work when other things fell through.

    And here's another test for whether you should consider being an attorney: Unless you are somebody's cousin or child, you can't afford to be one of these people who sits around and fucks around with your iPhone all day. If you want to be lazy and be one of these people who rolls in about half an hour late, you need to find something else to do or open your own practice. Seriously. As cheap and morale-destroying as many employers are, most of them know that there are many unemployed people sitting around who can do what you're doing. At least in most office jobs, employers will look the other way even though those people are probably being paid about the same as what you're being paid.

    ReplyDelete
  111. We can't return.

    We can only look behind from where we came.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR2vGJSX0xo

    ReplyDelete
  112. October 2, 2010 10:00 PM

    WOW, and so humble too!

    Love also the assumptions as to who one's "leader" is, whether one has or has not outstanding student loans, etc. Even the presumptions as to what generation a particular responnder belongs to. My, a chip on the shoulder bigger than a railroad tie to boot. Why the compulsion to boast so? Where is that coming from? We get it already, you are the ONLY ONE in the history of the world to walk ten miles to school in the driving hail barefoot. My condolences to those around you.

    We get it.

    ReplyDelete
  113. October 3, 2010 6:33 AM

    Oh yes, 6:33, superlawyer of 10:00 PM 10/2 fame is so ultimately successful that he actually finds ample time to HANG OUT ON A LAW SCHOOL SCAMBLOG. Hell of a time-budgeter, I must say.

    ReplyDelete
  114. AssociateX, I have family visiting this weekend. My wife has needed my help, i.e. all the heavy lifting, around the house. At least the garage is organized now. As a result, I have only looked briefly at this site over the last two days.

    To address your points:

    1. This man graduated from law school in 1996.

    2. He did not fail the bar exam eight times. He knew someone who had failed the bar that many times, at which point he realized the irrationality and blatant stupidity of the whole situation, i.e. spending several thousand$ more and scrambling one’s brains to pass an exam which will NOT lead to any job offers. This particular TTTTouro grad failed the bar two or three times. He needed to work and put food in the fridge - so he could no longer study exclusively for this test. Afterward, he applied to utility companies, insurance positions, hospitals, etc. At some point, a person is pretty much out of the job market. Do you understand that reality? Employers largely see those who have not been able to land a job over an extended period of time as “unemployable losers.”

    3. Alcoholism/alcohol dependence is recognized as an addictive disorder by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual and the American Medical Association. The reader has also admitted to thoughts of suicide - and constant stress, dark depression, mental anguish and feelings of worthlessness due to his student debt. This is CLEARLY not a laughing matter. Unfortunately, too many morons feel it is best, i.e. easy, to assert that this guy is a “failure,” some sort of mental/moral deficient, or “too lazy to find a job.” There couldn’t possibly be some connection/causality between the level of debt and one’s alcohol dependence and depression, could there?!?!

    4. If you cannot wrap your head around the fact that student loans can triple or quadruple over time, then you need to check out Alan Collinge’s site, Student Loan Justice. This man’s case is NOT an isolated incident.

    5. This person currently lives at home. He has apparently tried to mitigate his expenses. At one point, this Touro grad did land an insurance job - by taking the JD off his resume. Guess what? He went back to painting houses because he made more money doing that than he did selling insurance.

    Lastly, AssociateX, I am so tired of the “personal responsibility” theme. Apparently, this concept does not extend to Big Banks, wealthy CEOs, members of Congress, and other powerful interests. Even when these big players fail miserably, they are often rewarded. Apparently, only those of modest means are allowed to suffer the consequences of their actions. In the end, this is a catch-phrase that is merely designed to blame the victim. I see legislators, average citizens, and media accounts all point to “personal responsibility.” This is because it is MUCH EASIER to label people as “lazy slobs” and “losers” than it is to actually address the root causes of joblessness.

    You may want to get your facts straight, before issuing your pronouncements, AssX.

    ReplyDelete
  115. Nando:

    Painter guy again:

    You have pretty much made the argument for me.
    And thank you.

    The most important thing that you have indicated in so many words is this:

    There is a relatively short window of time wherin to find a job in your race against the student loan stigma and credit destroying interest buildup.

    Fail in that period--it can be as short as two to three years--and you will find that all of the doors and windows for "Professional" --LEGAL AND NON LEGAL employment that will pay enough to handle such loans will be closed forever.

    Why?

    Poor Credit. A strange records of Student Loan Massive Debt that shows up on any credit check, and which will render you an anomaly, as in: "What the Fuck is wrong with this person?"

    Apprehension by a prospective employer over the extra work that the grumpy accountant or Chief financial Officer will have to do for the newly employed shithead that will now have to have his or her wages garnished.

    The ex-classmate and guy that failed the Bar 8X in New York from Touro seemed sort of a lost Ghost wandering around the halls of the Javitts Center. I felt sorry for him, and wanted to buy a Ouigi board and hold a seance for him or something the same evening. To release his soul.
    Looking at him was like looking at a mirror of myself in a few years,and I finally realized how terribly wrong the whole situation was and is for him, and me and the Legal System.

    My score was so far from passing, and in the meantime I was frantic to put food on the table.A hungry belly is a great motivator to get money by any means.

    No Parental support at that point.

    But I am willing to answer questions if anyone wants to ask them

    But Nando, don't be so hard on Associate X. She sounds young and is, after all, a sort of colleague once or twice or more removed. Sort of in the best of all possible worlds (Tartuffe)
    And by the sound of it, an admitted 4X bar taker. So how much smarter can she be than an admitted alcoholic.

    It is a rough old world, and there are things out there a lot rougher than law school and a lifetime of debt even.

    As far as drinking goes: I was dry for 11 years. Not a drop. I went to AA meetings and finally sobered up after thinking I had a future or at least something to look forward to.
    When everything at last started to look completely hopeless, I just wanted a little escape. Can anyone blame me?

    I don't drive the car drunk. I don't go to bars for that reason.

    I need help yes to get back on the wagon, but I will do that in my own way. In my own time.

    And to every Veteran out there that resents Student Loan debtors: I remember being in a midnight AA meeting--a long time ago-- where an Alcoholic Vietnam War veteran confessed to blowing away a whole Vietnamese family in a village. He was so traumatized by the experience. I really felt for him. His soul would never rest, I thought.


    I rack my brains every day thinking of a beter life. A better Horizon. Deliverance.

    ReplyDelete
  116. called me Bane

    @7:01

    Wow yet another person that thinks all of us are spoiled kids lol. I will say that yes some are brats but most are just normal people and don’t have BMWs. I currently have a 96 dodge (note that I said have and not drive because it was a hand me down that had a hard life and can’t drive for long periods of time). It seems the most older people (noticed I said most and did not lump all older people together like you do to use grads) seem to think we are snobs and the answer to everything is work harder and stop being lazy. Also about the hard knock stuff and the “I walked up hill both ways to school BS” is getting old. Since your attitude is deal with it I will tell you to do just that and deal with it because I am tired of hearing this BS on this forum. I bet you are one of those that told people to go to places like the college this guy when to get degrees and then turn around and run off at the mouth when they expect there degree to work out and it doesn’t. Also when you graduate you do expect to get the finer things in life because that was what was drilled into you head it is not entitlement is expecting a reward for putting in the time and energy to get the degree.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Sorry you still have no sympathy from me. Get the alcoholism in check first - then maybe that will help you get back on track with the career and job repayment. When the going gets tough, the tough get going. FWIW, I graduated from another NYC TTT in 2001, and had my fair share of unemployment bouts - but never did I let my Sallie Mae payments balloon to uncontrollable levels. I always made the min payment when I was unemployed (while I waited for bar results from my __th attempt) and then made double payments when I found a job and could afford to. Pity parties get you nowhere.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Some poster here actually wrote that if private student loan discharge were reinstated all student loan debt would have to be forgiven and it would cost a trillion dollars. You might want to try that slippery slope on the O'Hannity show or some other such orifice spewing propaganda.

    An individual can only go into bankruptcy by meeting certain strict criteria.

    Obviously the people with good jobs making a good buck will not need it.

    Is this fair? Yes, it unequivically is fair because we need a society that is intelligent and compassionate and sensible enough to understand that giving someone in serious financial trouble a clean slate, if it is necessary, will benefit the entire society. It is better for that income to go into the real economy than back into the bank as interest and fees. The banks account for the fact that a small percentage of loans default and they are prepared for it because of the massive profits they make off of their usary.

    The people who cannot find a job and who can barely feed their families because their paychecks are garnished will need it and should get it.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Urgent Call to Action!
    September 17, 2010 by Robert Applebaum
    The Senate version of the Private Student Loan Bankruptcy bill passed a significant hurdle yesterday - it was voted out of subcommittee and now goes to the full committee. While we're still a good way from the finish line with respect to restoring basic fairness to student loans, this is great news. DO NOT LET CONGRESS DROP THE BALL NOW!

    I was planning on writing sample letters and giving you links to find your representatives and Senators, but the good folks at The Project on Student Debt beat me to it. No sense re-inventing the wheel, therefore, if you do nothing else today, please follow this link to send a clear message to Congress that you support the restoration of fairness to private student loans.

    Click Here to Send Letters to Your Senators and Representatives

    http://www.forgivestudentloandebt.com/content/urgent-call-action

    Little by little, we're winning the fight to restore sanity to the student lending industry. Let's keep the momentum going!

    ReplyDelete
  120. @8:44

    When the going gets tough.....the rich get richer and the poor get children.

    But I'm not saying you don't have the right attitute.

    I think I'm inspired now, and I'm ready to tackle those loans now.
    You might like this clip. (Go,Go.Go! Fight!Fight!Fight!)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmY7ttVNiWo


    But still....it's a long, long way from Clare to here.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B3_of9CY24
    See 2:20

    ReplyDelete
  121. Painter Guy here:

    Look...all flights of fancy aside, I don't know if my story has generated much interest among prospective Law Students or at the law schools in general, or at Touro.

    It will all probably be forgotten about in two weeks anyway.

    But if, on the remote chance my story can somehow help a "Situation" such as that of Student Debtors in general, or the avoidance of becoming one such as myself, then I would like to tell my complete story in as simple a way as possible.

    Two or at least one person above seems skeptical and possibly curious and/or desirous of learning more facts so as to render a judgement of sorts. A judgement over how I have lived my life, and how my manner of living, and the choices I have made have caused the Student Loan has grown to the preposterous size that it has.

    In a much cruder vein, a blogger named jeremiahwright has seen fit to refer to me as a schmuck (although I can no longer claim attachment to it, having been deftly circumsised in due course, and without much say in the matter, some hours or days after I came upon the world's stage in my seven pound birthday suit)

    I will submit my story serially, much like Dickens did in his early career when writing for magazines.

    I honestly do not know how much weight and/or influence a blog really has. But in the chance that someone is reading this--someone with a Title and a Position that might carry some influence--such as a Professor Tamanaha --or someone politically situated that might be able to make a diffference in Congress-- here goes.

    Part I

    I graduated from College with a degree in English Literature. My GPA was 3.52

    In retrospect, College was a happy time of intellectual growth and learning for me. My school was not an Ivy League school, but in my opinion, it was a good College all the same, with an excellent English Department.

    I am looking at several letters from a few of my college professors that I have saved from 20 years ago.

    For a History class I remember interviewing a survivor of the Sachenhausen death camp. I received an A for the course. The Professor wrote: "I want you to know that your final essay was an absolute joy to read--absolutely on target and telling. I wish you were a History Major. We could certainly use the intelligence and insight you display (and the good writing) and we do appreciate it greatly."

    Another Professor wrote: "Congratulations on a solid performance with a nice appreciation of both Walt and Hemingway. Best wishes (my name)in your education, career and life. "A" for the Exam, "A" for the course."

    A third Professor wrote: ....."I just wanted to congratulate you for the splendid work you have done at (the University) and the first rate essays you handed in last term for our Renaissance Literature class. You have every reason to be proud of yourself and our collective effort to become more reasonable creatures. Good luck....."

    In College, I made Deans list once, and had a modest scholarship.

    After College, I seriously thought about going into teaching, and started a masters degree program in English Literature.

    But after a year, I decided that I would rather go into Law, for various reasons.

    I was 27 years old. I knew nothing about law. I didn't even know there was a US Supreme court until my first semester at Touro. I had never read a legal case before. In short, I was green as grass, and woefully uninformed about what I was getting into; and I can accept full blame for my naievete.

    But I had a girlfriend and a family that I wanted to impress. I believed that I would make a large salary and live in the suburbs someday

    So I enrolled in a Kaplan course, studied hard, and took the LSAT once. I scored a 155.

    I applied to three Law Schools. St John's rejected me outright. Hofstra put me on a waiting list, and Touro accepted me.

    End of Part I.

    More on my motivations for entering Law School in Part II--at 3 o4 4 AM tomorrow maybe.

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  122. The Valvoline Dean and others need to be held accountable for the TTT LAW SCHOOL FRAUD!

    Down with the SEton Hall Law Toilet!

    Free Scott Bullock!

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  123. accept it painter guy. You took the Law School Gamble and lost. No one will bail you out - so don't try to seek pity from current and future law students. You dug your own grave, and unfortunately there's no one out there (esp not CONGRESS) you can help you dig yourself out. Student loan bailouts are a pipe dream.

    But thanks for this story - it is the perfect worst case scenario for future clueless lemmings who think a JD is an instant ticket to riches and career stability.

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  124. Congress is too busy sucking corporate dick to even bother considering helping those with student loans. The banks can write large campaign checks under the guise of 'free speech'. You do not this clout. We will all be left holding the bag...yet again.

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  125. Dear Painter Guy,

    At first glance, I sympathized with you. As the story unfolded I realized that the villain was neither the law school scam nor Sallie Mae. The antagonist in this story is YOU. You are your own nemesis having chosen to lead a lazy and dilatory lifestyle. So you failed the bar exam 3 times. Does that give you a pass to stop trying? You let your student loans triple because you could not even pay the interest, however, had you bothered to do so, and even knock off a .25% by enrolling the automatic debit plan, you could have cauterized your own wounds. This "woe is me" story about law grads who are in hock for hundreds of thousands of dollars gets no sympathy from me. I paid my dues without asking for handouts.

    Painter's story is not a "law school is a scam" cautionary tale. Painter's story is about how not everyone is cut out to go to law school and have a legal career. I was once a college professor. I recall making many laudatory comments on papers. Would I recognize one of these students on the street? Hell no. Shame on you for believing that you had a gift to be a lawyer just because a couple of professors fed you gratuitous praise. Painter, you have definitely faux finished your life.

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  126. I have a small favor to ask people reading this blog that are anti-student welfare because it goes against the spirit of capitalism.

    Read this report:

    http://fraser.stlouisfed.org/publications/montru/

    ReplyDelete
  127. Dan, many working American's do not want to be forced through taxation to support others. So I do not want to pay for the losers mortgagues, or credit cards, or car loans, or student loans. I have lived responsibly and I am taxed unfairly. Even school tax on my house is outrageous, for I attended parochial schools and do not have children. How is that fair? In my district, people dirve BMW's and live in houses 4,000sq ft plus, and they should pay for their childrens education. So, I am in a society that wants bailouts and borrowing money in my name to pay their bills. I am so ready for a tea party. Stop making your "rights" to healthcare, education, welfare, etc, my obligation.

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  128. Touro is a diploma mill. Few graduates actually have a decent legal jobs while the school hires politically connected Nassau and Suffolk Judges and lawyers on federally subsidized student loans. Anyone who was at Trouro will tell you about the student loan check refunds held for a year after the tuition had been paid just so the school could get the bank float on the funds. Or tell you about the accreditation/ charter deal cut in the mens room over teh urinal.

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  129. Anon 1:36:

    More later but just to whet your appetite :)

    I have never said or implied I want your taxes to pay for ANY "rights"

    I have never said or implied that education is a right.

    YOU have never showed the there is a nexus between your property taxes and student loan relief (even assuming there are any taxes supporting student loan funding or relief-which there is currently none.)

    I really hope you are not a practicing lawyer. If you have not been able to parse and interpret the hypocrisy I have been highlighting or that my comments are more libertarian than liberal that you are in my opinion not qualified to practice law.

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  130. @12:51

    Painter Guy here:

    You said:

    "I was once a college professor. I recall making many laudatory comments on papers. Would I recognize one of these students on the street? Hell no."


    What a terrible thing to say.


    The young souls and minds entrusted to your care meant nothing?


    I hope you didn't really mean that and were just overexcited.

    So for now, Goodbye to you, Mr. Chips.....

    (By the way, Greer Garson was so lovely)

    This is an ugly comment made before the entire story has unfolded. I have not finished my installments.

    I do not recommend comments until the entire thing is finished. You do not have all of the information yet.

    But if you must, do as you list...

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  131. "Painter's story is not a "law school is a scam" cautionary tale. Painter's story is about how not everyone is cut out to go to law school and have a legal career."

    Those are two sides of the same coin. The scam lures people in who have no business going into the legal field. Why am I not surprised a "college professor" missed this?

    "I have lived responsibly and I am taxed unfairly. Even school tax on my house is outrageous, for I attended parochial schools and do not have children....I am so ready for a tea party."

    ...except the actual Tea Party participants were being taxed and repressed by a state they had no say in. You chose to remain in America, where you were represented in two different governments, plus you had the right to end-around all of them and amend the Constitution. You tax is unfair? Well guess what, dope, YOU agreed to it. YOU agreed to live in a place where your property taxes pay for public school children. YOU have reaped the benefits off the system and now you want to complain about the costs. If you don't like that, leave the country. Typical right-wing hypocrite, you want to complain about taxes you agreed to and whose revenues you benefit from disproportionately (including the presence of the bankruptcy code, mind you) while telling students to pay their debts and not ask for the benefit of bankruptcy or government assistance to correct systemic problems.

    ReplyDelete
  132. Again to 12:51:

    Also, all 3 letters were not "on papers"

    They were sent by mail, and I still have the original envelopes and letters because I was and am still proud of the wonderful teacher-student relationships that unfolded.

    I can scan and post them if I can locate the old professors and get permission. Do you want me to do that?

    A wonderful life might have passed you by and you didn't even realize it. But maybe it is not too late if you raise your eyes up from the podium; up from the paper and meet the gaze of your students.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7uiEk_3gtY&feature=related

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  133. 12:51 and 1:36 (same shitbird, right? tell me i'm wrong)

    anyway, we get it. you walked 10 miles to school in the snow barefoot. you did it all yourself. go read a book called outliers or any other study that shows this is complete and total bullshit, eg, the thoery of the self-made man. did you pay your way through parochial school? did your family ever receive a free public education? someone else asked you several times how you feel about bailing out big banks and other corporations. in response you said these businesses were too big to fail. yeah, that makes sense, doens't it? shouldn't the invisible hand of the free market apply evenly w/o regard to size of the industry? plenty of small and mid-sized businesses are allowed to go belly up all the time. in summary, your logic is laughable.

    ReplyDelete
  134. to @12:30

    Painter Guy again...

    The story in all of its installments is not over yet, and again you are jumping to conclusions like others.

    But you have taught all of us something with your semantics.

    Back in the day--the early 1990's--the idea of Law School being a "Gamble" as you rightly say, was not in anyone's contemplation. Everything was very well intentioned. All of the stars of the US Educational system were in alignment pretty much, and then, over a couple of decades, became terribly, and systemically skewed.

    No one could have ever guessed that 20 or so years later, things would have ended up so badly--a social crisis for the loans, debtors etc.

    Here is a quote that I'm sure will go down in history as from a truly courageous and outstanding person:

    "Indeed, higher education has been co-opted by a financial system that is destroying its importance and crushing students. Granted if one assesses the lending structure from a historical perspective, it made sense at one time. But that was long ago, and it's since been sorely corrupted."

    C. Cryn Johannsen

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  135. Just to clarify:

    3:42 was posted by Painter Guy, and he quoted C. Cryn Johannsen.

    3:42 PM was not posted by Johannsen.

    Love you Cryn anyway!!

    ReplyDelete
  136. Again, this is painter Guy:

    Somebody that is very wise, above, talked about the end of WWII and the shift of the balance of power in the world.

    And I guess we all sound like so much of noise talking about the trees compared to his or her very real understanding of the woods.

    But still, narcissist that I am, I have a lot more to tell of my story and history.

    Interestingly enough, so many comments in reaction to this entire post have come from other interests and/or personal or self interest, with litttle or no curiosity about my own story.

    For the few that have responded to my story, I have said a few times that I am not finished telling it.

    Yet I have been dismissed by some people that have taken it upon themselves to be judge, jury and Executioner (as the old cliche goes.)

    Nando, please feel free to move on to your next post. My story is a true, yet humble story of yet another poor and very humbled person that has come way down in the world.

    If it is OK with you, I will continue to post the rest of my autobiography in installments on this particular page as well as I can between painting and sleepless hours of worry.

    Frankly, I can't keep doing this blogging stuff for too much longer because it is too upsetting.


    But as my story unfolds, I'm sure I will win over a few, and lose a few.


    But here is a favorite quote of mine from F. Scott Fitzgerald.

    I believe it is about the American Dream and the fallacy anddemise of it, in a sense.

    "Gatsby believed in the green light, the orgiastic future that year by year recedes before us. It eluded us then, but that's no matter--tomorrow we will run faster,stretch out our arms farther....And one fine morning____

    So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past."


    May God help us all in these terrible times.

    After 5 or 6 thousand years of civilization, I too believe that Education has to somehow Matter.

    ReplyDelete
  137. To the libertarian minded lawyers on this page:

    You are all insane and libertarianism is dead, you just have not realized it yet. The handwriting is on the wall.

    ReplyDelete
  138. It is 4AM here in NY.
    Yes, the painter guy again here.
    to 10:40--what does the word libertarianism mean actually? I do listen to a lot of talk radio all day when working. I listen to Rush, Hannity, Lou Dobbs. Even Glenn Beck. Can't say I agree with them most of the time, but it is good to have in the background sometimes instead of music.

    Sometimes I also listen to NPR.

    I have a few more installments I would like to make. But I'm a bit tired and my hands a bit shaky. I'll try for Part 2 tomorrow. But here is the outline pretty much:

    Part II continues to discuss my motives for going into law, and also discusses struggling and working very hard in a Tier 4 Law School, being on academic probation and at the bottom of the class for the first three semesters, and graduatng with a GPA a little over 2.0 thanks to a few ridiculously easy classes in the 2nd and 3rd year for which I received A and B+ grades. I also discuss a first year contracts course that taught nothing about contracts. A Criminal Law class that likewise taught nothing.
    A large NY Practice class that was also irresponsibly and poorly taught and wherein half the class received a grade of D or D+.
    WIthdrawing from a class because an clown instructor said "Fuck you" to a student, and not getting an $1800.00 refund from the registrar after I asked him for it.

    Also about being sick with worry when starting my second semester of my first year, fully paid for by student loans, and without my grades from the prior semester. (But in order to attend the classes I had to be paid in full as I say)

    Part III my miraculous method for landing legal employment after Law School in 1997, and my largely paralegal and unlicensed lawyer work experience between 96 and 2000, (and bar exam attempts during this time.)

    Part 4 after 2000, my frantic job search. Hundreds of attempts. My inability to find either a legal or non-legal job other than painting or blue collar work, and a short stint selling insurance. That was after hundreds of resumes and inquiries locally and even nationwide. Using all my contacts, and "networking"

    And also the rapid build up of the student loans after that point, the terrible stress and fear they caused, and how they largely broke up my marriage, which lasted between 99 and 06, the date of the legal seperation. (officially ended in 08)

    Lastly, my current life as joe 6 pack the Painter Dude.

    If many of you JD's find yourselves working in a blue collar world someday in order to make a living, I can give you advice on how to act and talk.

    A word you will find yourself hearing and possibly using a lot will be "Motherfucker"
    It is not in any the Law Dictionary, but is a real word anyway.
    Also, covering your body with tatoos will help you blend in, and you can even pierce your ears. But remember to shave cleanly around your goatee. Respectability counts.

    There are 62 categories of porn. Familiarize yourselves with them, because you will be discussing them with your co--workers while on the job.

    As I say, I have a Novel I have written about Painters and painting.

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  139. @Painter Guy: Please note my sarcasm when I ask you why you couldn't land a gig at a top 100 law firm in a huge city paying well over six figures after graduating at the very bottom of your class from a bottom of the bucket law school?

    Did it ever cross your mind that you might have it just a * LITTLE * bit tougher than a Michigan Law Grad with a 3.8? Or even that you might be in competition with TTT grads with 2.9s for some very average opportunities?

    I'm certainly NOT calling you a loser at all! Please don't take it this way. However, you haven't done anything to show that you are able to compete against ANY other lawyer in the country. My question is what WOULD make you attractive as a lawyer to a client?

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  140. It's raining today, so I will have to make do with some odds and end work indoors. Plaster work in a really beautiful old mansion.Not a full day, but something.

    I'm glad my truck is going again. It was in the shop having a rusty and leaking brake line fixed. 300 bucks. a setback, but not too bad.

    To: 5:33
    I did do legal work, which I haven't been able to write about yet, but will.

    After that I couldn't find more work for the reasons you describe probably.

    And that goes to the realities of the job market I guess.

    I think landed my first and only "Professional" job after Law school because I was, and still am not a bad looking fellow. Beer does not necessarily give a person a belly, because I can still flex my six pack abs. All those sit ups over the years maybe gave me some muscle "memory"

    But as I say I think my looks helped.
    And I wasn't drinking much then and was younger. (Drinking causes bags under the eyes, always a tell-tale sign)

    But as you indicate, the competition is much greater than it was 5 or even 10 years ago.

    But in that successful interview way back when I remember telling the Executive VP of the Company this:

    "I believe a good salesman can tell you more about Human Nature than a whole school full of Psychiatrists!"

    I just made it up on the spot, and I think that impressed him and got me the job. He laughed when I said that.

    I started out doing sales, ended up as Compliance Manager/Legal Dept. doing mostly insurance type filings and claims work.

    The company consisted mostly of people who had spent their lifetimes in the auto dealership business. Extremely sharp people.

    Oh well, gotta get some chocolate milk and get to work.

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  141. "Oh well, gotta get some chocolate milk and get to work."

    Random.

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  142. SETTTon Hall law voted America's most ROTTEN TOILET!

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  143. I could give a rat's ass whether the seton hall dean sold the futures of his law students down the toilet. All I care about is that the Pirates make it to the NIT tournament.

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  144. Painter Guy, the path you chose is serpentine. If you can manage your fears along the way then what further explanation is required. There are many working lawyers who have a semblance of security but are dying inside--stressed, burned out and consumed by the profession. Any way you cut it we're all painters, applying a more pleasant exterior to our client's version of the truth.

    ReplyDelete
  145. To 9:19 AM:

    Chocolate milk is the best cure for a hangover.

    You ought to get out more.

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  146. To 12:46

    Thank you.

    And a good way to cap off this tormented post.

    Sometimes I work on some beautiful properties.

    Waterfront, with boats bobbing by in the bay or Ocean, and the sun, wind and salt air in my hair and face.

    Way up and unnoticed on a rooftop, with no sense of time, age or space. Just a sort of oneness with the experience. As if I could float off on the breeze among the ever cheerful seagulls.

    Money, and all of our cares mean nothing to them.

    Maybe that is what it feels like to die.

    I sincerely hope that Heaven is waterfront, and that debtor's purgatory at least has a waterview.

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  147. If you fail the bar, it means you probably need more time to study and memorize the material. In order to do that, you need the luxury of not needing to work for several months. Try passing this shit when you are working FT. You need a full 8 hrs of sleep a day. You also need to relzx during the day. It keeps you sane and calms your nerves somewhat. It goes without saying that if you are working 8 hours a day that you will simply not have the requisite amount of time to study for this thing. You need to devote FT hours to study for the exam. Why do you suppose people who fail the exam once have lower chances of passing this motherfucker the second, third or fourth time. Their confidence is shot and they are probably working (assuming they are responsible and paying the bills, and not just sitting home as interest accrues on their loans when they are in deferment). Anyway, it is easier to cast stones and call someone a loser or say they "didn't try hard enough" than it is to look at the root problems of the law job market. I also notice that not one of the painter's interlocutors ever addressed why it is OK to bail out corporations or to wipe out cc balances via BK courtt, but not do so for college grads that are drowning in student loans.

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  148. I can't understand why anyone will get at law students and law grads for making a poor call. Isn't not true that we are told to go make it in life? I asked why are the likes of Cooly, Touro, and all these toilet business ventures granting JD allowed to function under this scam called ABA.
    I feel the ABA should be pushed aside and let JD be like an MBA but with the bar exams made difficult enough with 3 tries at it only.

    Now, this will sure lower the asking price for a degree that is near worthless as many of you are saying.

    Schools like Cooley will have to give that worthless degree they are granting away.

    Have any of you ever seen how large Cooley's diploma is? I swear it can cover one entire section of a small wall.

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  149. I agree with the poster that says you need full time to study for the bar. I failed a few times while working at my FT biglaw job. It is incredibly hard to pull it off, i.e., studying, while at the same time trying to meet your billables and keep up appearances.

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  150. @7:34: A funny story to follow up on your post (well not funny to the guy it happenned to). I heard it directly from the general counsel of my state's attorney registration/discipline agency while he was teaching a class on ethics.

    A biglaw associate got a job immediatley upon graduation. He failed the bar but was afraid to tell the partnership, so he pretended that he passed. Being biglaw, he never went to court anyway and he technically didn't need a license to do doc review. He didn't have time to study with the billable requirements. One thing led to another and 7 years later he made partner at the firm without ever being a licensed lawyer.

    The Bar discovered it somehow and his legal career ended. He didn't technically get disbarred because he was never licensed.

    ReplyDelete
  151. Painter here:

    The most severe critic above has said that I didn't take the bar enough times in order to pass. And the implication is that it would lead to sufficient income for handling the loans.

    An excellent point.

    However......I did take it 3 times.

    My score was so low, and so far from passing, that it was almost a certainty that I would have had to take the exam 3 more times in order to pass.

    At the time, I met people that were a hair away from passing, and that still had to take it a few more times in order to get their score above the passing mark.

    With that knowledge, and given my academic struggles and poor academic track record, I was very distraught. My confidence in myself and my life was shot.

    Besides, there was no more time. No more.

    The window of opportunity for decent employment was rapidly closing, and besides, I had to eat.


    Crappy clothes, crappy shoes, crappy car, an angry wife.
    Family and friends and basically everyone in my life was saying: "What the hell is wrong with you?"

    "You are sitting home not working and talking about some exam when your wife is out working and supporting you etc. etc etc."

    But to backtrack a little--back in the day---I really, really believed in Law School and the certainty for higher paying employment. I really felt that I was doing the right thing by pursuing a JD at a Law school of any tier, no matter what the class rank ended up being.

    And no one back in the 1990's would have even dreamed of saying I was wrong, or of calling Law School a scam or a gamble. The age-old rule of thumb passed down from my grandparents and parents was that the more education, the better, and that better job opportunities await.

    How different it all is today. Today's world is radically different. Education in many forms is most definitely not a guarantee of financial success. Education does not matter it seems.

    Some people like C. Cryn Johannsen seem to feel that Education does matter.

    I just don't know anymore.

    .............More in the next post...........

    ReplyDelete
  152. Painter guy again.

    This is PArt II to 3:24


    ...........In 2000, my ex-wife was extremely upset with me for not passing the bar, and the growing student debt.

    My family started to look askance at me, and the blue-collar homeowning in-laws were severely critical.

    The sister-in law was a woman that was shrill, languid, handsome, and horrible.

    She would ask: "Are you taking care of my sister?"

    What reply could I give other than about vague Bar Exam obstacles...

    The amount of information I had to learn for the NY BAr was overwhelming, and I think that I would have really needed a year at least of full time study to absorb it all.

    But the refrigerator was empty. THe realities of survival set in fully, and the studious mind became extremely distracted.

    But when I did try to settle down and study, I kept asking myself over and over:

    Why didn't they teach me this at Touro?
    Why didn't they teach me this at Touro?



    I was at the bottom of the class,and a very confused and muddled student of Law at Touro at best.

    Did I work "Hard"? You only have my word that I did.

    Did I really "Try"?
    Again, you have my word. Why else would I have borrowed so much money if I wasn't going to "Try"


    Then one day, I finally realized that something would be terribly wrong with my life, and for society if I was to be a 4,5 or 6 time bar taker, and then later started to take in good money from the public for practicing law.

    That realization came on the day that I met the 8X bar taker from Touro in the Javitts center.

    Does anyone out there understand what I am talking about? Or care?


    But in the bigger picture, Maybe Touro would not have even had its genesis without easy student loan money.

    Maybe less lives would have been ruined, and things would have not have gone as far as they have gone without easy student loan money over the last 20 years for Touro and all the t3 and t4 schools.

    In the end, I do feel sorry for anyone working in the legal profession.

    By some stroke of pure luck, the twists and turns of my life have resulten in my learning a trade that will never go out of style.

    That is because real estate has to be maintained.

    Second only to basic maid service and cleaning, Painting and plastering is an absolute necessity.

    I will never be out of work, even if it doesn;t pay too much.

    But I will always be able to eat.
    I do beautiful work, and can rebuid a destroyed plaster wall from 100 years ago, and make all 4 walls plumb and tabletop- like new.

    Hardly dilatory. It takes skill and good hands.

    Even if the builders and Plumbers and Electricians and Tile workers, and kitchen dsigners and copper workers, and roofers (well maybe not roofers)and carpenters and masons and landscape designers, and pool maintenance people, and window washers are all out of work....

    Everybody needs a painter.

    So I made less than 30 grand a year in 1996.

    36 thousand in 1997.
    43 thousand in 1998.
    53 thousand in 1999.

    Between 2000 and 2010, I have never made more than 30 thousand a year.

    I can scan my tax returns if you like.

    I am an open book.

    Hardly enough for consistnet automatic debit--the suggestion of which by a bit of a numb-nut above, is preposterous. The minimum loan payments were never below 800 a month on average.

    And again, my ex-wife wanted nothing to do with the student loans.
    She had her job and her salary that she worked hard for too.

    Can anyone blame her?
    I don't.




    Now, could I have worked 2 jobs?

    My ex-wife wanted her man home at night. She wanted her man home on the weekends.

    I don't blame her again.

    She wanted to be married to a normal man, and not some kind of a man that was unavailable a lot of the time because he had this wierd student loan thing hovering over him, and for which he had to spend more time away from home and the marriage in order to pay down.

    I need another tall-boy.

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  153. Painter:

    You should still grab a BARBRI and pass the bar in your spare time. I handle PI, worker's comp and criminal and try hard to get to know blue collar tradesmen. You ARE a tradesman. If you just got that paper that say's that you're a lawyer you could refer cases from your friends and take a third without doing anything different in your life. If you care to learn, you can also pick up how to do this and do it part time when you're not painting. Once you have enough cases, it might not even be worth it to paint anymore.

    I know government lawyers and small firm associates who only make about 50k so don't feel bad.

    What ever you do, good luck to you.

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  154. 4:51

    Thanks and Interesting:

    I have to say that on a work site you see some pretty harrowing shit going on.

    Races on a scaffold.

    Look at me no hands kind of showing off stunts up on a rooftop.

    Throwing objects down at someone from 30 feet up.

    Extremely hostile work enviornments and what would be considered extremely abusive homoerotic talk and/or employment discrimination if the poor fellow being abused only realized that he had rights.

    That's the blue collar world.

    The cock-sure father guy on that TV show called "Orange County Choppers" sort of epitomises the "type" you often encounter, if you can follow me.

    Also, Illegal immigrants/aliens placed in very dangerous and unsupervised work situations.

    It is an observation that most people would probably discredit, but I have to say that the white guys-not all of course--are the crudest and the foulest mouthed. And I'm as lily white as they come.


    The Latino men are radically different culturally speaking, and in their behavior. Much more considerate I have found, with an ease and frankness and humility that i can only conclude comes from having experienced deep poverty.

    If they prove to be the new heirs to America it will be deservedly so.

    I have seen painting companies rise and fall. Some get too ambitious and take on too much work,or someone gets hurt, which is not hard to do.

    I met a guy once who severely broke and twisted his leg on a 4 ft stepladder.


    My problem is that I've educated myself out of a decent job, as my uncle once told me.

    I've been on this track for too long to change now. And honestly, that Exam is just beyond my intelligence level to pass.

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  155. Posted this on our FB page for Default: The Student Loan Documentary. Nice job.

    Facebook.com/DefaultMovie

    ReplyDelete
  156. If you say that people "deserve" a lifetime of debt, you are SICK! We have bankruptcy laws for a reason.

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  157. I need an attorney, wanted to be one myself but through divine intervention (being too broke to get the loans) I was saved that fate...
    This might be an interesting case for the adventuresome that would like to expose the real injustice within the "education" system". It involves good ole Sallie Mae 1990's, HEAF 1990's, Depart of Ed. 1990-2010..and the sweet deal that they cooked up between them to screw me.. and a few others I'm sure.
    http://avsa.hypermart.net/Muir/updates.shtml

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  158. Hi Painter,
    I am still pulling for you. As a second year law student attempting to find work in a brutally competitive and glutted job market (Massachusets), this blog and others on the site has become more and more relevant to me. I would like to reiterate several things from a financial perspective.
    1. In any other financial system, interest rates charged on loans in someway comport with the riskiness of said loans. (I pay nine percent on FEDERAL LOANS that apart from me being dead or permanently incapcitated are IMMUNE to default.)
    2. To the fallacious argument that education is different from other things discharged in bankruptcy and cannot be repossessed. The vast majority of Chapter 7 Bankruptcy cases are "no asset" cases: basically, after the dischargeable debts have been added up along with homestead exemptions etc. THERE IS NOTHING FOR THE CREDITORS TO TAKE. I.e nothing to reposess.
    3. People who talk about how they did it all themselves and are sick of being "unfairly" taxed. Do you drive on highways? Do you use computers at your job or when you were in school? Did you or anyone else in your family get public education? In the 60's the nascent computing industry was jumpstarted by government tax subsidies for the space program. In other words taxes for public programs are a GOOD thing that help all of us. Whether you are driving to the firm in a BMW or going to paint someone else's house. I pray I don't need to explain the relationship between the highway system and taxes to you "tea partiers." However, given the collective ignorance, cruelty, and selfishness of this group perhaps I am being overgenerous.

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  159. Okay. I find these interesting, but I also know many Touro Law students as I am a recent graduate. The quality of the applicant is quite low typically. I know a girl from NJ that just graduated with me that has 100's of thousands in debt. She borrowed for college. She later borrowed for med school which she dropped out of. She borrowed for law school. All the while she wasn't working more than a few hours a month (less than 10 typically). Her momma bought her a car and then she borrow money against that. She had creditors calling her while she was in college still. She's borrowed like crazy. She now has a degree from this toilet just like I do. I got a free ride. I took it, but realize now that it was a mistake. I was better off paying out of pocket for a real school. I will pass the BAR. I doubt she will. She's used to riding mommy and daddies coat tails. There are a million stories like this at Touro. My friend Sasha is not the only person. I feel duped. I feel like less of a person for having been so stupid to go to such a TERRIBLE school. I have to live with it. Some people make something of it. I hope to be one of the few that gets lucky because the name Touro will only hold you down.

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  160. Hi! Nice tips. Thanks for sharing such a valuable post here.

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  161. hahaha- all you people are trash. I hope you know that. I went to Touro Law my first year and did so well that I transfered to a T1. I just graduated- and networked throughout school. Because of that, I just got a job making $128k at a private firm in the city. And no, I won't spend my life paying debts back because I did WELL in law school. This guy clearly did not do well. There is a reason that he is this much in debt and a painter. He probably was close to failing throughout his law school years. Whether you go to a T4 or T1, if you graduate in the top of your class, you'll get a job. And for you people saying all attorneys are struggling- not quite you half wits. Looks like you're just jealous that people are smart enough in the first place to get into law school. Go ahead and try studying for the lsat- and taking the 5 1/2 hour test. I dare you. Then try actually getting into a law school. It's hard. Not everyone can transfer to a T1 like I did. But, whether I had graduated from a T1 or T4 like Touro- I would have graduated at the very top of my class- and had gotten a job immediately. This post is far from valuable. Do you realize the person who wrote this post is a JD who failed to get a job? Why don't you ask Nando why he hasn't gotten a job? It's because he didn't network or get good grades in law school. To sum it up, he's a dumbass.

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  162. To the piece of garbage who posted on July 20, 2011 at 11:44 am,

    I landed a non-legal job within two months of graduating from Third Tier Drake, bitch. Do you understand that, cockroach?!

    Do you expect me to give up a job with plenty of vacation and sick time, paid holidays, and solid benefits - for an uncertain future?!?! What is the point of shelling out several thousand dollars, for the chance to say, “I am an attorney at law”? That will not pay the bills, you piece of trash. My only option would be to start up my own firm, where I can compete against established, experienced attorneys and law firms, i.e. lawyers who can spend tons of money on advertising.

    Here is some advice for you to attain some semblance of credibility, apologist bitch: why don't YOU post where you are working at, along with your name? A starting salary of $128K is an odd figure, for a first year associate.

    Your mother doesn't make that amount, even when she blows 2,000 men in a year, you miserable waste of space.

    Touro is a pathetic joke. If you are telling the truth - which I serioiusly doubt - even you are aware that this school is a festering sewage pit. To wit:

    "I went to Touro Law my first year and did so well that I transfered to a T1. I just graduated- and networked throughout school. Because of that, I just got a job making $128k at a private firm in the city."

    http://abovethelaw.com/2011/04/mistrial-declared-when-judge-is-astonished-by-touro-grads-incompetence/

    “The Washington Post is reporting that a D.C. Superior Court judge, William Jackson, declared a mistrial in a murder case on Friday so that the defendant could fire his lawyer. The attorney, Joseph Rakofsky, a 2009 graduate of Touro Law School, showed “numerous signs” that he “lacked knowledge of proper trial procedure,” according to the judge.

    If you are wondering why people sometimes make fun of Touro and other very low-ranked law schools, it’s because this kind of stuff is straight-up embarrassing. Good schools try to not let people like this into to law school, and they certainly don’t let them depart so poorly trained.”

    The school admits morons and cretins, such as you. The commode is happy to take in the federally-backed student loan money. It is not until after the pigs cash those checks that the school casts blame on students for “not working hard enough.”

    For your sake, I hope that you develop some integrity - as well as a set of balls.

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  164. Everybody needs a painter.

    So I made less than 30 grand a year in 1996.

    36 thousand in 1997.
    43 thousand in 1998.
    53 thousand in 1999.

    Just keep trying to network as a painter- get your name out there- or better yet, start up your own company if you can- become a handyman and when you go to paint- tell the owners that you can do all sorts of work.

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  166. The piece of garbage who posted on August 2, 2011 at 9:52 am had nothing substantive to add. Like many of the angry lemmings, he does not even know how to make a cogent argument. Yet, the cockroach wants others to believe that he is making decent money.

    I suppose he could be blowing men for $10 or $20. But do not try to equate that with practicing law, douche. Now go on servicing strange men, on the train station.

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  167. hey nando- nice post. This is ridiculous that this guy is this much in debt! But, hey- in this economy- I guess we can now say he isn't the only one- right?

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  168. July 20nd 11:44 am and August 2nd 9:25 am are the same person. It’s obvious. He’s mad because his mother and sisters get on their knees sucking off by a bunch of niggers five times a week. What’s more is they like it. Probably a Palin supporter too. She likes getting pounded by black men, just like your mother. Fucking tool. And before someone gets offended, the faggot wrote the word with an asterisk. If you're gonna use the word have the fucking balls to use it without an asterisk. Fucking pussy.

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