Sunday, October 10, 2010

Sweltering, Fourth Tier Public Toilet: Southern Illinois University School of Law

We are taking a little break from the Boston and NYC toilets. For this entry, the TTR Express heads over to the cosmopolitan metropolis known as Carbondale, Illinois. As of 2008, its population was estimated to be 26,231.

Tuition: For the 2010-2011 academic year, an Illinois resident attending this school on a full-time basis will be charged $11,574 in tuition plus $3,172 in fees - for a grand total of $14,746. An out-of-state full-time law student will pay $29,925 in tuition plus $3,172 in fees, meaning that this person will pay $33,097 in total for one year of “legal education.”

Total Cost of Attendance: From this same document, we can see that the school estimates that room & board, books & supplies, and miscellaneous expenses will add another $14,546 to the annual tab. This would bring the total COA for an in-state resident to $29,292; the annual total COA for an out-of-state student will be $47,643.

Also, notice how the school shamelessly mentions the use of Federal Grad PLUS loan to help cover the cost of attendance. When you head over to FAFSA, you can see that these loans come with a fixed 7.9% interest rate. Not exactly the best terms - for loans that originate from the Direct Loan program!

Ranking: For $ome rea$on, the cost of attendance is not very affordable for this public law school. Surely, the school’s reputation will more than make up for this high cost, right?!?! Actually, some publication calling itself US News & World Report purports to show that this school is in the fourth tier cesspool of U.S. law schools.!firstyearjobplacement_files/frame.htm

Career and Employment Prospects: The sewer of law does not furnish job placement and starting salary info for its recent graduates. (I wonder why that would be the case.) Hey, at least the school’s CSO provides this nifty Power Point slide. Frame 10 offers this stellar career advice: STUDY HARD - GET GOOD GRADES.

Thanks for that terrific insight, you jackals. Also, did anyone else notice that this slide appears to have been put together by a 10 year old?

At least, this outside site provides salary and job placement info. This page claims that SIU Sewer of Law Class of 2007 had an employment rate of 88.1 within nine months of graduation. The median private starting salary is listed as $53,750; the figure published for median public sector starting salary was $38,000. Wow! What a great investment, huh?!?!

Average Level of Student Indebtedness: According to USN&WR, the average indebtedness of 2009 SIU Law grads who incurred law school debt was $63,233. Furthermore, this publication shows that 90 percent of this toilet’s 2009 graduating class incurred law school debt.

“A good rule of thumb is that your total education debt should be less than your expected starting salary. If you borrow more than twice your expected starting salary you will find it extremely difficult to repay the debt.” [Emphasis mine]

Look at this sound advice from FinAid and Mark Kantrowitz. This is a free public service. “Law professors” love to joke that lawyers are terrible at math. If this is the case, then permit me to break this down for you. Ninety percent of this law school’s 2009 graduating class took out student loans for law school. Of these students, the average indebtedness was $63,233, which was significantly more than the reported median starting salary for those in private practice, from the JD Class of 2007.

What’s that you say? You can write onto the Journal of Legal Medicine?! Yes, won’t your parents be so proud of you?!?! What employer - or lovely, young woman - wouldn’t be impressed by this sterling credential?! The world can be your oyster. Just attend this august in$TTTTiTTTTuTTTTion of “higher learning,” STUDY HARD and GET GOOD GRADES.

Conclusion: The Southern Illinois University School of Law is a steaming pile of waste. Do you need to take out an additional $60K-$100K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt to land a job making $38K? Do you consider that a wise financial decision?

If you are seeking a law degree as a way to earn some respect from colleagues, associates, friends, co-workers or family, then you are asking for trouble. Remember, YOU will be the one who must re-pay these student loans. Plus, is anyone really going to hold you in high regard when you are a 34 year-old starving lawyer living in a third-rate basement apartment ? In the end, it doesn’t matter what others think; it matters that you can pay your bills, put food in the fridge, and support yourself. I’m looking at you, Toni Braxton.


  1. "Plus, is anyone really going to hold you in high regard when you are a 34 year-old starving lawyer living in third-rate basement apartment ?"

    Let me be the first commenter to say that: Lawyer or not - you are a friggin loser if you are 34 and in this situation. Any jackass in the world ought to be able to make something happen by this age. Also, if a lawyer is in this position, I certainly WOULD NOT want him representing any citizen of this great nation.

    P.S. God Bless the United States. If you don't like this country - GET OUT!!!

    1. How about if we remove loudmouth, idiots like you from this country instead?

  2. October 10, 2010 3:33 PM

    Dear Chris at 3:33: I'm sorry, but I can't see anywhere in the above commentary on this "School" where our host has expressed a dislike for the United States.

    Not seeing it. Where is that conclusion coming from?

    Far from it, this blog, and ones like it, just might save a few kids (and a few older people who should know better) from financial ruin incurred by attending one of these frauds.

  3. Although, love the picture. It is reminiscent of World War Two-era Red Army field accomodations, I believe.

    Well done.

  4. Nando, where are the salary stats of the fat cats that run this cesspool? Inquiring minds want to know.

  5. How dare you disparage the Harvard of the Midwest? lol One of SIU's professors (Sheila Simon) is running for lt. governor of Illinois, which takes time away from her bluegrass band. I graduated from SIU about a decade ago - the tuition then was about 1/4 of what you posted. SIU used to post salary/placement info, but it just up and disappeared a couple of years ago.

  6. Grab yerself sum chicken 'n biscuits and chill out. The law market sucks ass, 'n we can't do anything 'bout it. But we can sit back and relax, cant we?

    Hell, I practiced law...befgore I beat the fuck out of a client in a Little Rock courtroom. Pow! right in the fucking mouth. Stick and move muthafucka, stick and move. Bob and weave. Blam! How you like me now, bitch? HOw you like me now? Sumbitch is lucky I didn' shove a bucket a chicken up his ass. And tha's how ya handle an unruly client.

  7. I could't find whether SIU has a fax machine for students to use, but I did find the following:

    5. Participate in on-campus interviews; be very selective after the job offers start arriving.

    Hmm. Offers from both the Hague and the Second Circuit. Decisions, decisions.

  8. SIU law alum here, contemporary of 7:46. The school is a joke in a lot of ways, but its consistently been tops in IL bar passage year after year against in-state competition like U Chicago and NWestern. And, personally, I am doing ok in a major metro fly-over city though I have to work my arse off.

    The slide show to which you refer is a lecture given by Professor RJ Robertson about the legal job market. The "work hard get good grades" slide was kind of a moment of levity in his lecture on how to get into biglaw.

    SIU Law had some awesome professors that have since retired this decade and have been replaced by less-than-talented hacks. Believe me, the old guard were some damn talented people (Kionka, Viera--both authors of Nutsheels--retired and there are others).

    I'd be glad to answer any other questions about SIU'll get an honest opinion from me about the good and the bad. For me, it worked. I have less debt than most, passed the bar on the first try, and am making a living doing the kind of law I want. Not to mention I had fun and a lot of sex with a lot of women in Carbondale...the down side is it is getting harder and harder to make $$$ practicing law, its stressful, and SIU grads face a terrible and flooded market and, as always, have to compete with all the IL law schools as well as WashU and SLU.

  9. 15k in-state is one of the cheapest public law school tuition rates in the country. I'm not getting the hate. There seem to be so many worse law schools that combine: 35k+ tuition, lying career stats, and higher living expenses. Is SIU "bad"? Sure, but I'm not sure it deserves the same hate as the Cooleys and University of Phoenixs of the world.

  10. To 3:58,

    Chris, the law student at Indiana University Sewer of Law-Indianapolis, has been consistently handled on this forum - with the facts. He must resort to making straw men arguments; in this specific case, he is relying on the “patriotic” argument. This is sad on so many levels, and indicates that he does not have a leg to stand on, with regards to the law school scam.

    By the way, Chris. Did you ever accept my advice and ask one of your co-eds out on a date? Maybe, if you took your nose out of the Indiana Code, you might see that there is more to life than boring legal minutiae. Yes, you should be happy that this nation allows even a brazen idiot such as yourself the liberty to freely express his opinion.

    7:17 am, feel free to add any of your insight on SIU Law, to this dialogue. We can discuss the situation in a fair manner. I typically refrain from posting entries on public law schools. However, I have received plenty of requests to highlight this school. It seems that a Southern Illinois JD will have a very difficult time making a positive return on his investment.

    According to this web site, there are nine law schools in the State of Illinois. While SIU Law grads may have a high bar passage rate, we know that bar passage does not equal legal employment. Furthermore, this industry is centered on prestige. Where one attends law school matters to employers.

    Lastly, while many of the Chicago-based law schools are lower-ranked, they are still located in the large city. Carbondale is about 330 highway miles away from Chicago. How many Biglaw firms even send out representatives or hiring attorneys to OCI to Fourth Tier Southern Illinois University School of Law?

    “Illinois licensed attorney with exceptional research and legal drafting skills needed to support attorney work in several areas of law, including immigration, bankruptcy, mortgage foreclosure and loan modification, family, criminal, among others. The position is full time -- 9am to 6pm, Monday through Friday, and requires a natural talent for writing and research, an ability to produce exceptional work within a short amount of time, as numerous assignments will always be in the queue.”

    How is a TTTT grad supposed to make a positive ROI with going rates such as this? Clearly, there is a glut of attorneys in Illinois.

  11. You also have to keep in mind that students going to "higher-ranked" schools are accumulating much higher amounts in student loans and while their "median" salaries might be higher in proportion, that can merely be because of a few top-heavy salaries from graduates, not because that it what the average students will actually be making.

    SIU Law does have its drawbacks, but still provides a well-rounded legal education for a fraction of the cost of larger schools.

  12. Side Note: Toni Braxton is 50 MILLION in debt for excessive spending far above and beyond her income. For her absurd behavior, she's rewarded with bankruptcy courts which roll out the red carpet for people like her and that real housewife from New Jersey.

    However, the guy that's $271K in debt and painting houses for a living has no such recourse.

  13. One of my good friends graduated from SIU in 1990. He wouldn't know the first thing about how to log on to Westlaw or write a brief, but he's a great salesman. He makes at least $300k doing criminal defense.

    If you accept that you have no desire to do biglaw, then why not just go to the cheapest school that you can, get the paper that say's that you're a lawyer, and then figure it out. Most don't figure it out, but that's because they suck and sales, marketing and management; not because they missunderstand fine points of law.

    1. You are right. I am a SIU Law Grad and I do just fine financially. I don't live in Illinois nor in a major metropolitan area, and I work in the public sector. My income is above average for my public sector attorneys in my area and I had little debt load compared to my collegues that came from much more prestigious schools (they earn the same or less than I do and have much more debt). I feel like my decsion to go to SIU was good one because of that reason. I was never going to wok for a Big Building Law Firm in a Big City. If that was my goal then SIU would probably not been the best place to go to Law School.

  14. Kiddies:

    It's OK to have your dreams.

    A litle place of your own with rabbits, chickens maybe.....but just don't expect them to come true if you go to a lower tier Law School.

    If you fail to listen to Nandos' warnings in every single Post.........

    you'll get this:

  15. somehow this guy is still a 2L at Southern Illinois. Oh that's right. His tuition check must have cleared.

    Commentary from Locke:

    "McMillan was arrested shortly after the ill-fated rendezvous with the police, but now he's apparently out on bail and, according to SIU students, back in class. If (and when) he is convicted of solicitation of a child and traveling to meet a minor, it seems unlikely that he will be able to satisfy all the character and fitness requirements necessary to secure a law license. Yet, despite the fact that McMillan is an (alleged) internet predator whose legal career is already doomed, SIU Law School has not suggested that, perhaps, Mr. McMillan should reconsider continuing his studies."

  16. Relatively speaking, this TTTT isn't so bad. Almost all of the others schools profiled are way more expensive than this one.

  17. Let's see. The total estimate cost of attendance for an IL resident is $30K. Who has that type of cash lying around? Evidently not many seeing that 90% of the class went into debt to get a law degree from this shithole. I don't have a problem with this school being profiled on here.

  18. At first glance, I thought Zeus or Raiden had descended from the heavens to take a dump in that outhouse commode pictured above. I mean look at that radiant glow coming out of the bowl. Is this somehow supposed to convey to the lemmings that there is a glimmer of hope by attending this ghastly institution?

    I recall seeing a video clip from this school's commencement ceremonies from 2009. Instead of seeing smiles among the grads, all I saw was gas faces. Again with the "at the end of the day, I have the same law license as a Yale Law grad." This is like saying I live in the state as Bill Gates. It doesn't mean you are wealthy or prestigious. Folks, if you graduate from this putrid commode, you are surely in for a rude awakening.

    As a side note to the pre-marital checklist from the last post, I have to say based on empirical evidence, this is the breakdown of how law grads fare in the marital sweepstakes (keep in mind that 10 is a knockout and 1 is a troglodyte):

    HYS: Mostly wind up marrying 6s, sometimes you will see an 8 or 9. In 20 years in the profession, I have yet to see a HYS marry a 10.

    Rest of the T14: Mostly wind up marrying 5s but this is ok since by in large the majority of the students that compose the T14 are less than 5s themselves.

    T100: About 40% wind up marrying 5s, some 6s and 7s if they live in middle America (think trailer trash hot redhead).

    TTT/TTTT: An overwhelming majority of them suffer from Tony Robbin's "Shallow Hal" hypnosis. Pigs galore when you get to this level. Might as well killself when you are scrapping at the bottom of the genetic pool.

    There you have it folks, depending on what school you attend can influence who you will marry in life. Just remember, follow the pre-marital checklist and you will be ok.

  19. ^Are Biglaw associates that are working 90 hrs a week oblivious to their wives blowing Hector the chiseled gardener. (I should like to state that I agree with your pre-marriahge checklist.) Seems pretty sad that these guys are breaking their backs to make big bucks while their 'better half' has her toes 12" from the celing from a heated encounter w/ Hector.

  20. But then again, maybe it is better if the people going to this school remain ignorant of the inevitable:

  21. 11:02AM

    My former physician had an office located at Central Park West and after he retired we kept in touch as we often golf together. After an afternoon of drinks he disclosed that most of his STD cases came from attorneys and their spouses. Biglaw associates are clueless when it comes to what their spouses do while they slave away. When I was a young buck attorney I used to take my weekend flings to the St. Marks Hotel, close to Cooper Union. I thought I was a clever lad by selecting this obscure hotel until I started bumping into other attorneys' and some of their spouses with people they were not married to. Now before most of you condemn me for my flagrante delicto, I will confess that my first wife cheated on me long before I started fucking around. In her divorce pleadings she alleged that I was never around and that I neglected her. Of course she omitted the fact that I was supporting a lifestyle that she herself could not have dreamed up growing up in Crown Heights, New York. She had a view of Central Park but because I was hardly around, she grew bored and decided to blow anyone from the doorman to the dog walker. But God is great. She is no longer alive (died with in a fishing boat accident in Jamaica) and I received a reprieve on my alimony payments.

    Again, I cannot emphasize how much pain you will avoid by complying with the pre-marital checklist. Just as an example, a friend of mine married a Hooters waitress within 6 months of knowing her. 18 months later while getting a divorce he hires a private investigator that obtains her rap sheet which included a conviction for solicitation and prostitution. Can you imagine my buddy's embarrassment?

  22. @10:40

    Painter Guy here--

    There is some truth to what you say, although I hope you are just kiddding around about a lot as well.

    Ideally, people should marry for Love, and together they should weather all the storms that life can bring, and that would include student loans, again that is "ideally".

    My-ex wasn't willing to help, and I didn't expect her to. And I didn't think she loved me any less. But still, I have heard of other spouses helping the other spouse to pay off Student Loan debt.

    As far as-and from heterosexual man's persective only- the physical beauty of the spouse goes, I can only speak from personal observation.

    I work in some very upscale Suburban Neighborhoods, and during the day there are a lot of very attractive women/housewives or homemakers over 30 and 40 even that go on their daily runs or jogs. They also go to the Gym regularly, and follow the best diet humanly possible.

    In short, they live like professional athletes almost.

    The men, on the other hand, return later in the evening from work and look stressed and tired out. They are underexercised, and try to get out on a Saturday or a Sunday.

    They have "Office Bodies".

    There are also some professional and successful women that work in these neighborhoods as well, but they seem to succumb to the same sort of wear and tear that the White-Colar successful corporate and other professional men do.

    Also, a generally stressed demeanor.

    Which is not to say there are not exceptions.
    There are exceptions to everything.

    There is beauty in youth, but true beauty should have no age.

    And true love is not time's fool, as Shakespeare said in teh sonnet that is popularly read at weddings.

    The one that goes:

    "Let me not to the marriage of true minds admit impediments..."

    Or the Paul Sukey "Wedding Song"---HAH!

    But they say 50% of all marriages end up in divorce nowadays.
    How do student loans help that figure I wonder?

    One last comment. If you have ever seen the movie "A beautiful Mind" it is really hard to picture a woman as attractive as her sticking around through all of the guy's antics. But there--and we can all point to this movie as truely illustrating "True Love"

  23. "But God is great. She is no longer alive (died with in a fishing boat accident in Jamaica) and I received a reprieve on my alimony payments."

    Goodfor you. Question: Would you hire a graduate of SIU Law, sir? Or would you laugh your ass off and then toss the resume in the trash? Thanks.

  24. I ask rhetorically, aside from the guys who want kids of course, "Why get married?"

    I mean, unless you intend on kids, what's in it for the boys?

  25. Some of the real fun about SIU comes from their career services website:
    SIU Law --> career services --> Job Vacancy Bulletin (I can't post web addys in comments).

    Yes that's right SIU doesn't need no stinkin' Symplicity. The great opportunities are on display for all to mock. 18 amazing jobs. And about 1/3 of those are law school admin jobs that recent grads aren't qualified for, a few more that req. 3-5 experience. My favorite is that the page notes it displays 50 jobs at a time. Like there were ever more than 50 listed. . .

  26. 12:23PM

    Good for me? Well that divine break was wasted when I re-married two times after that. I had two sons with my second wife. She made out like a bandit in divorce court and swore she would never re-marry out of spite for me and just so that I would have to pay her alimony for life. However, even with her reckless spending habits she fell behind on her bills and was close to filing for bankruptcy. She kept taking me back to court for increased alimony so I finally offered to give her a one-time lump sum cash settlement (think just a tad over half a million in the early 90s) in exchange for waiving the alimony. She took the deal and I was liberated from that obligation. My third wife was a true bitch on wheels. My strategy with that divorce was to drag it out for years but the hanging judge ordered me to pay her attorneys' fees which were astronomical so I wilted under pressure. She also took a lump sum deal in lieu of the alimony annuity and kept the house, which I had leveraged out before the ink on the divorce settlement dried. Her attorneys bitched and moaned and tried to get the court to force me to give back the money from the refinancing but my attorney included a provision on the divorce settlement stating that the terms were final and irrevocable. Her expensive attorneys neglected to include "free and clear of encumbrances" when I signed over the house to her and my lawyer pointed this golden nugget out to me which I was then able to capitalize, thus, preserving some small dignity from that divorce. But trust me, I got railroaded all three times in divorce court. I learned my lesson. Never again.

    As for hiring an SIU grad? His/her resume would have been weeded out long before it was scheduled to make its way to my desk. So to answer your question, I would have neither hired an SIU grad nor laughed my ass off (due to never receiving said resume).

    12:06PM (Painter Guy): Most of the highly maintained women you speak of have racked up a heavy bill with the plastic surgeon's office. I have two friends that are plastic surgeons and they are constantly doing work for these housewives (e.g., breast augmentation, smoothing crows' feet, liposuction, lip injections, etc.). The sucker at the office who is dying in the office pays for these guilty pleasures. Me? I would go to Brazil, Thailand, St. Petersburg every two months and meet different women (honestly mostly are 10s) without having to support them. And best of all, I don't have to deal with their drama or bullshit. Some people may judge me and say "well you are paying for these women." Uh hello, so are you. So what if you are married or engaged. You are paying for that "privilege" in spades. Let's take courtship for example. You take a lady out to eat in NYC. With drinks and tip, that meal will cost you $140 (sorry I can only relate to 4 or 5 star establishments). Parking is another $40-50. Movies are $26 and coffee afterwards with cake is another $20. One date can cost you almost $250. And what do you get at the end of the date? If you are lucky you score. In Rio, I spend less than $50 to "date" a 10. And best of all, she leaves when the date is done. No straggler or lingering effect to deal with.

    Honestly I don't know why anyone would get married these days. I am not against the institition of marriage. Like I said, if you must take the plunge, compliance with my checklist will avoid many headaches in the future.

  27. BTW Painter Guy:

    Professor John Nash's wife in no way resembled a young Jeniffer Conelly. If they had cast Susan Boyle in that role, it would have been more accurate and more believable.

  28. I find myself supporting the 3x divorcee's arguments against marrying someone. Who wants the drama? I do not judge you for paying for sex dates. I pay a fucking mortgage, car ins., da bills, do all the backbreaking work aroud the place and I maybe get a handjob 2x a month, and missionary sex 3-4 times a month. it's a raw deal. If I want a bj, I have to go see a friend with big tits and lovely eyes. Good thing her husband is a complete clueless idiot. Carpe dame.

  29. To 1:06

    I'm sorry to the others if we are getting off topic, but I love it!

    This is all so cracke and crazy, and it is only the kind of thing a person who has been already divorced can relate to.

    I had a fender- bender with an MD last summer, and after a few minutes we both started somehow complaining about our divorces. The poor fellow was divorced twice and still "Shell-Shocked" as I am.

    The Insurance Co's took care of the accident.
    But if anyone out there is thinking of marrying someone with children from a prior marriage, here is a simple exercise.

    1st. Fill your lungs with air. Take a deep deeper still.

    Step 2. Are your lungs nice and full now?

    Step 3: Scream as loud as you possibly can. And I mean louder than you have ever screamed in your life. At the very tip-top of your lungs, and with every last ounce of mortal breath you can possibly give.

    Congratulations. Now you know what step-kids sound like.


    Painter Dude.

  30. @12:23

    What is in it for the boys?

    The wisest man the world e'er saw
    Dearly loved the lassies oh

    Ah! Cherish the Ladies!

    Green Grow the Rashes Oh!

    There's no but care on every hand
    In every hour that passes oh
    That signifies the life of man
    and twere not for the lassies oh

    Green grow the rushes oh
    Green grow the rushes oh
    The sweetest hours that e're I spent
    Were spent among the lassies oh

    The wordly race may riches chase
    And riches still may fly them oh
    And when at last they catch them fast
    Their hearts can ne'er enjoy them oh


    Give me a quiet hour at e'en
    My arms around my dearie oh
    And warly cares and warly men
    May a gae topsy-turvy oh


    For you so grave you sneer at this
    You're no but senseless asses oh
    The wisest man the world e'er saw
    Dearly loved the lassies oh

  31. 1:34PM

    I realize many kids (and adults) that frequent this site have no idea of what life is like after a wicked divorce. I have been down that burning road three times. I have been told that I should write a book about my marriages. I will say this, I was 100x the dope Al Bundy (from "Married with Children") ever was.

    My checklist is a guaranteed lifesaver. Had I come up with this list at the age of 20 and complied with it, I would have avoided years of heart wrenching drama and crap with the ex-wives, divorce court, matrimonial attorneys (that will fuck your spouse and then apply for the court for you to pay for the honor).

    In many ways, I tell my story because it relates to what is happening to folks going to, and graduating from putrid law schools. Student loans are akin to marriage. There is only two ways out of marriage and student loans: 1) death or 2) payment in full with capitalized interest. Re-paying for student loans is a lot like being married. You bought the cow (JD degree) and now you get to pay for it for the next 20-30 years. However, marriage may be more merciful since you can get out of it sooner than 20 years (BUT you have to pay early withdrawal penalties). You still have to pay in limbs. And what did you get for your troubles? A lousy marriage certificate (JD diploma) that says you are tied to a ball and chain (student loans). There are many rules to both marriage and the practice of law. If you fall out of love during your marriage, you pay through the nose. If you fall out of line with attorney ethics, you get disbarred.

    I guess what I am trying to say is my checklist is similar to the TTR blogger's advisory warnings. Nevertheless, most kids will continue to take the plunge thinking they are the special exception(or in the case of marriage, that they found someone exceptionally "special"). Kids, there is nothing special about marriage or being a lawyer. Take it from someone who has been a lawyer for over 20 years and has been married and divorced three times. If I had to do it over again, I would be fixing Harleys for a living (doing something I love) and living single (thereby refusing to enter an institution that will punish me with prejudice if I fall out of love or if my "better half" alleges "irreconcilable differences").

  32. Leading up to these critical November elections, I would like to say something to a blogger that calls himself jeremiahwright.

    The real Jeremiah Wright has enough problems, what with being severely attacked by Hannity, Rush Limbaugh and Mark Levin and other conservatives radio talk show people.

    As I say he has enough problems without people like you out there invoking his name and using obscene language.

    And when your head stops spinning around, I hope it will be facing the front.

    In other words, you use the name of someone who is clearly of the Democratic Party and Liberal, but you argue like an extreme right winger.

    I'm just trying to help you with your confusion.

  33. The JD: a new kind of "ball and chain".

  34. 2:09

    You raise a compare and contrast situation well worth examining.

    Marriage and the decision to enroll in Law School. Both are similar in terms of commitment. Yet both are so different.
    Yet the lines cross and blur......

    I really felt for poor Paul Mcartney when he was divorced last time.

    His last wife actually resembled Linda McCartney I thought.

    (She is a very nice looking woman by the way.)

    But still I thought 'How could the baby faced Paul McCartney I remembered from my youth have been so fond and foolish in his post middle age?'

    What did she offer him in such a short period of time, to attract him, and yet repel him in such a short time later?

    So to compare-------Law also attracts and repels after the first semesters grades.

    And no amount of hard work and study will ever change that.

    The first 1 or 2 semesters of Law school is an IQ test more or less.

    I remember it well. The teacher that taught witchcraft (I kid you not)at Touro one day stood in front of the class and said: The "pecking order" for your career is established in your firt year of law school"

    Then she went on to relate, in a Holly Hobbie dress about how the "Partners" had the higher gpa's. The other associates had the lower gpa's etc.

    I really felt like a right ass because I was just trying to keep my gpa above failing.

    Call me Charlie or Flowers for Algernon.


    Painter guy


    Look at this colorful $ouTTTThern Illinoi$ Univer$iTTTTy $chool of Law graduate:

    “Matthew F. Hale (born July 27, 1971), more commonly known as Matt Hale, was the third Pontifex Maximus (Latin for "highest priest") of the white separatist religion, Creativity, and the founder of the group formerly known as the World Church of the Creator and now known as The Creativity Movement. The organization's headquarters were based in East Peoria, Illinois. In 1998, Hale made headlines when his application for an Illinois law license was denied due to his religious beliefs in White supremacy, described as a "gross deficiency in moral character". On April 6, 2005, Hale was sentenced to a 40-year prison term for soliciting an undercover FBI informant to kill federal judge Joan Lefkow. He is currently incarcerated in the Administrative Maximum facility in Florence, Colorado as Inmate number 15177-424.”

    Hello, Inmate Number 15177-424. How is prison life treating you? Have you been able to use your TTTT law degree to your benefit behind bars - helping your fellow inmates files writs and appeals? While I don’t have any respect for federal judges, I do know that it is a bad idea to hire someone to kill one of these black-robed politicians.

    Apparently, the law school was AWARE that Mr. Hale had been expelled from Bradley University, and that he had written white separatist pieces for the student paper, The Bradley Scout. For $ome rea$on, he was permitted to re-enter Bradley - and proceeded to earn a B.S. in something called “Political Science” from the school. As someone said earlier, his tuition checks must have cleared. That is all these pigs care about, after all. The biggest sin a student can commit is to not pay his tuition.

    That did not stop SIU from taking his money - which likely came from federally-backed student loans. He was even able to graduate with his JD and then pass the Illinois Bar Exam. However, the state bar decided that Matthew Hale did not have the requisite character and fitness to be a member of their association. I guess he was not as "fit" as Rod Blagojevich.

    Honestly, look at this entire article. I simply cannot do justice to his list of federal convictions, involvement with the KKK, and earlier criminal convictions. Apparently, Hale was considered SIU Law material, by the admissions committee.

  36. Nando, here is a crim law question for you. If Matthew Hale had gone to a witch doctor in Washington Heights, New York and commissioned for malicious "santeria" with the intent of causing seriously bodily harm or death, and then the judge in question suddenly chokes on a fried chicken drumstick, could he have still been charged with attempted murder? Or at least conspiracy to commit murder? I want to see your Drake legal analysis at work.

  37. SIU law alum here again--Glad we're back on the SIU topic and not divorce. To answer your question earlier Nando, Biglaw 10 years ago took the top 10-20 students or so from SIU--but lately not as many. I will say the #1 guy in our class that ended up Biglaw was fucking off the charts smart and a good guy too. Again, SIU worked for me but a lot of my "success" has been through my own hard work, luck, and *gasp* networking. You're not going to go to SIU and have Jones Day beating down your door, but you will come out with less debt than John Marshall, Kent, or Valpo and have a better shot at bar passage. And as I stated above Carbondale is a great city to be young and single--I just couldn't imagine living my life there. Give me my flyover city with professional sports, broadway on the road productions, and chain steakhouses and I'm happy.

  38. To 4:04;

    You mean 10 years of compounded interest and
    10 years of more lives destroyed by inescapable debt-----you absolute creep.

    Keep on gog to the pee-wee football field and cheering and screaming at the befuddled kids about a way of life that is over.

    Bring your wife or husband too....

    Your flyover city is now speaking multiple languages, and none of those people care anything about American football-an imperialist land acquisition game--born in an era that is long gone.

    Hope your little stupid bubble never bursts.
    And your wife never leaves you--

  39. I do not believe 4:04PM's claim that Biglaw took the top 10-20 grads from SIU ten years ago. Please name the firm(s) so that the info can be verified by accessing a legal directory. Otherwise, at best maybe the top student from SIU could have landed a staff attorney gig with an AM100 firm 10 years ago. I don't even think nowadays an SIU grad would be hired, even as a paralegal at Biglaw.

    4:04PM is probably some schmuck making $80K (after 10 years) in insurance defense. Given the low prospects coming out of SIU, he feels as if he has made it. Sad to think some people have made it because they can occasionally eat at an all you can eat steakhouse.

  40. Nando, funny stuff as always. And good find on the SIU racist Hale. However if it's okay with everyone I would rather hear about the wealthy attorney fucking hot chicks in foreign lands, getting fucked by divorce lawyers and judges, and his ex's sexploits sucking Pedro (or whateverthe fuck his names was) the gardener's dick. And to everyone out there, please avoid shitholes like Southern Illinois.

  41. Ive said it before and Ill say it again...

    These schools should have caps on how much tuition can come from loans.

    Can you imagine how fast tuition would drop with a federal restriction of only 50% tuition from loans?

  42. 5:04 and 5:44....bitter much? Why the personal attacks? How am I a creep?

    Anyhow, Bryan Cave, Kirkland Ellis and Jones Day took one or two a piece when I was there, and a few other firms in Chicago/St. Louis with over 100 lawyers starting at 80-100k back then took a few more. So I am guessing 10-20 made Biglaw. Not sure if they are still there but it did happen.

    And at 5:44, when Ruth's Chris has an all you can eat night let me know! And I've never done ID and I make more than 80k...

  43. October 11, 2010 4:01 PM

    Will the Colonel be flown in to serve as expert witness?

  44. October 11, 2010 4:04 PM

    I, for one, 4:04, appreciate your color commentary on both Carbondale and SIU Law. Good stuff.

  45. I too agree that wealthy-attorney-guy's expose on divorce was enjoyable and enlightening. Also good stuff.

  46. 6:08PM

    Bryan Cave only has 2 associates from SIU, both graduated with honors, one was summa cum laude. Bryan Cave has about 1,200 attorneys.

    No SIU alumni listed at Jones Day, which has over 2,5000 attorneys.

    No SIU alumni listed at Kirkland Ellis, which has over 1,500 attorneys.

    Translation: 2 out of 5,200 attorneys at these three firms attended SIU. Hmm, if you attend SIU, you have a better chance of winning the megamillions lottery than landing a Biglaw job.

    BTW, Ruth Chris is so TTT. But I will give you a gavel bang for living in a city that has some decent go-go bars.

  47. I graduated from SIUC in 2007 as an undergrad with a 3.7 gpa, a 156 lsat score, and a solid list of activities (besides drinking and doing drugs). I was hoping to go to law school because like many in my position, I sprung for that liberal arts degree. So I had no prospects for employment at the time. Unfortunately, 2007 was a bang-up year for most law schools so I got rejected from 6 2nd and 1st tier schools. I tried some lower tier schools and got accepted to Thomas Cooly and Southwestern. Now I had paid my own way in college with some loans and working, so I had some debt, but nothing that was serious. I think it was like 12k when I was done.

    I had run out of time to apply and I got wind of a small law school in Massachusetts called Southern New England School of Law (Now University of Massachusetts School of Law - At Dartmouth). At the time, I didn't understand the difference in accreditation ABA v. State. The school's advertising and orientation were misleading. What got me there in the first place was the price. However, I found out later that was also misleading. After a year, I had expended nearly 40k in tuition along with living expenses. Not including books, which were outrageously expensive. I also was made aware of the accreditation problem the school had. You could only take the bar in Mass or CT. Naturally, I tried to transfer out, but the only school that would take my credits was Roger Williams Law. They wanted me to do my whole 1st year over again AND pay 2x as much as I was now. So I finished out my tenure there and upon my last year Umass merged with the school.

    So naturally I wanted a UMASS degree rather than a degree that came from a non-existent school. That would also allow me to benefit from name recognition and accreditation. I am currently embroiled in a fight with them about this matter. I will probably have to file a law suit to get them to do anything. The SNESL staff is notoriously litigious - 7 suits have been filed against the school - and they rarely have settled.

    So now I am unemployed and have a degree that isn't worth the TP its printed on. I also racked up some 150K of debt in gov't loans + 50k in other non-gov't loans. I have resigned myself to the fact I won't ever pay them back. What am I doing now? Working as a cashier and doing some law clerk work for a sole practitioner for 10 dollars and hour. I am now living back at home with my family. Yes, I passed the bar exam.

    DO NOT GO TO A 4th TIER SHIT HOLE IT IS NOT WORTH IT!!! THERE IS NO WORK FOR US AND IT IS A SCAM! Listen to the dude on this blog, he is telling you the truth. THE LAW MARKET is glutted with people who never should have gotten a degree in the first place. People with decent grades and decent test scores that pass the bar should be getting jobs but they aren't.

    Unless you are going to a TIER 1 IT IS NOT WORTH IT!!!!

  48. I graduated from SIUC in 2007 as an undergrad with a 3.7 gpa, a 156 lsat score, and a solid list of activities (besides drinking and doing drugs). I was hoping to go to law school because like many in my position, I sprung for that liberal arts degree. So I had no prospects for employment at the time. Unfortunately, 2007 was a bang-up year for most law schools so I got rejected from 6 2nd and 1st tier schools. I tried some lower tier schools and got accepted to Thomas Cooly and Southwestern. Now I had paid my own way in college with some loans and working, so I had some debt, but nothing that was serious. I think it was like 12k when I was done.

    I had run out of time to apply and I got wind of a small law school in Massachusetts called Southern New England School of Law (Now University of Massachusetts School of Law - At Dartmouth). At the time, I didn't understand the difference in accreditation ABA v. State. The school's advertising and orientation were misleading. What got me there in the first place was the price. However, I found out later that was also misleading. After a year, I had expended nearly 40k in tuition along with living expenses. Not including books, which were outrageously expensive. I also was made aware of the accreditation problem the school had. You could only take the bar in Mass or CT. Naturally, I tried to transfer out, but the only school that would take my credits was Roger Williams Law. They wanted me to do my whole 1st year over again AND pay 2x as much as I was now. So I finished out my tenure there and upon my last year Umass merged with the school.

    So naturally I wanted a UMASS degree rather than a degree that came from a non-existent school. That would also allow me to benefit from name recognition and accreditation. I am currently embroiled in a fight with them about this matter. I will probably have to file a law suit to get them to do anything. The SNESL staff is notoriously litigious - 7 suits have been filed against the school - and they rarely have settled.

    So now I am unemployed and have a degree that isn't worth the TP its printed on. I also racked up some 150K of debt in gov't loans + 50k in other non-gov't loans. I have resigned myself to the fact I won't ever pay them back. What am I doing now? Working as a cashier and doing some law clerk work for a sole practitioner for 10 dollars and hour. I am now living back at home with my family. Yes, I passed the bar exam.

    DO NOT GO TO A 4th TIER SHIT HOLE IT IS NOT WORTH IT!!! THERE IS NO WORK FOR US AND IT IS A SCAM! Listen to the dude on this blog, he is telling you the truth. THE LAW MARKET is glutted with people who never should have gotten a degree in the first place. People with decent grades and decent test scores that pass the bar should be getting jobs but they aren't.

    Unless you are going to a TIER 1 IT IS NOT WORTH IT!!!!

    1. You didn't even properly research accreditation of a school you were paying $40,000 a year to attend? You deserve to be unemployed.

  49. Three time glutton for marital punishment back here again. I am not wealthy by any means. $100M, hell $50M is wealthy. Anything less is getting by comfortably.

    I hope some of you heed my advice. You don't realize it yet but the wisdom I am imparting here is worth gold.

    I have to head to bed soon but I figure I would share a divorce tip that I used twice to secure favorable settlement terms. Pay attention and do as I say. When you get the divorce papers, call the ambulance and complain that you are having chest pains. Get on the exercise bike and pedal like a madman until the ambulance arrives. Your heartrate will be close to or over 200 bpm. This will be measured in the ambulance. You will be taken to the emergency room. Tell the doctor that you felt a numbing effect in your arms and legs. An ER hack may write it up as a mild stroke and discharge you the next day or two after further tests.

    At the divorce hearings/conferences, make sure you look unhealthy. This is easily accomplished by fasting 2 days prior to the hearing/conference. Believe me, you will look as weak and frail as you feel. Leak to your spouse's friends or common acquaintances that you had a stroke and are seeing a cardiologist and taking blood thinning medication (e.g., lipitor, etc.). Your spouse will share this information with her attorney. In my last two divorces I did this and during one deposition I collapsed and was rushed to the emergency room. Divorce attorneys are predictable animals. Sure enough, my ex's attorneys approached my attorney and suggested the idea of a lump sum settlement in lieu of lifetime alimony. The greedy wenches and their attorneys probably gave me no chance of living longer than a few months so naturally they took the lump sum bait. It was still a costly resolution but had I paid lifetime alimony, I would have been fucked over even worse. At least now I am truly free from the bonds of my past mistakes with no monthly reminders of sending checks to the exes who in turn use them to travel to exotic locations where they will fornicate with cabana boys and such. The great thing about this recession is that my last 2 wives have squandered the settlement money and are struggling financially. My second wife had to sell our former homestead in a short sale where she made nothing on the sale. My last wife is currently in foreclosure proceedings. Thanks to the finality and irrevocable clauses on my divorce settlement agreements, these greedy leeches cannot re-open the divorce proceedings and demand more money. Women can be bitches but so is karma. Goodnight.

  50. Nando:

    Law school prestige only matters for biglaw. For the rest, you just need a paper that says that you're a lawyer.

    If you're NOT going to biglaw, why not go to the cheapest? The Illinois law schools are U. Chicago, Northwestern, U. Illinois, IIT Kent, Loyola, DePaul, John Marshall, Northern Illinois and Southern Illinois.

    If I have no plans for biglaw, I'd rather go to the cheaper NIU or Southern (or U. Illinois, but that IS good enough for biglaw) than the more expensive private schools.

    BTW: I got a kick out of that criminal/immigration/divorce lawyer demanding a student with excellent grades and research skills (I bet he doesn't even have Westlaw).

  51. To: 10:11 @6:08

    Sorry I said you were a creep.
    Just got carried away after 5 or 6 tall-boys.

    There is one that is half-full somewhere around here. I vaguely remember that from last night.

    OH-well. It will turn up.

    At least I forgot about my loans for a while, and had a few laughs reading the above.

    6:54 is really funny. But moderate some of it because it will offend half the human race.And we all know how sensitive lawyers can be..

  52. @6:52


    Welcome to the shadows; the dark side.

  53. [note to self: do not read this thing when you are eating breakfast cereal. goddamnit, i had to wipe raisin bran off my screen.]

    Thanks for the marriage and hilarious divorce tips, 20 year lawyer guy. That advice actually might save more lives that this blog. Thanks for sharing your horror story, 6:52. It must be miserable to go from $12K in undergrad debt to over $200,000 just from a piece of shit law school like Southern New England. And thank yoiu for providing this forum, bitter Drake grad. overall, it makes for great info and entertainment.

  54. I must apologize if it appears I have hijacked this thread with my erstwhile posts about my marriages and divorces. To make it all relevant to this post about Southern Illinois Univ. School of Law, I will say this to the current students and graduates of this school, which up until a few days ago I did not know existed. Here is the silver lining to the Southern Illini folk: You won't have to go through the horror and bullshit I have been through because A) TTT grads/broke people do not attract golddiggers and B) divorce court can only strip you of what you have and half of nothing is still nothing. If anything, you can argue that your spouse is entitled to half of your student loan liability. Take some comfort in that.

    I don't know if writing about my marriages and divorces provides some cathartic relief for me or whether it boils my blood. As I look back to my wedding day (to the third wife), I recall sitting in the banquet hall in the main table (I felt like a still duck in a shooting gallery). Poeple were coming up to my ex-wife and telling her how beautiful she looked and how happy they were for her. I remember standing there next to my best man (who tried in vain to stop me from marrying again) and seeing my ex walk down the aisle. The organ was playing "Here comes the bride all dressed in white." Yet in my head all I could hear was the classic Hall & Oates song "Maneater." Dressed in white? That bitch could suck the chrome off of a trailer hitch. Dressed in white? Purity? What a joke. I am sorry, I digressed.

    Any way, for those non-Southern Illini folk who are married or planning on divorcing, I have a couple of more golden tips that will help you balance the scales of justice in divorce court. Anyone here a Knicks fan from the early 90s? Remember the classic battles with the Bulls and Michael Jordan? I bet Patrick Ewing wished Jordan was out of the playoff line-up in 1992 and 1993. Well in divorce, you can take the heavy hitters out of the line-up. Here's how. Depending on what city you live in, get a list of the best divorce lawyers (make sure the list has at least 12 lawyers). Visit each and every lawyer on the list for a consultation. Sure they may charge anywhere from $250-$750 for an initial consultation but trust me it is worth it. By doing this, you have ensured that your spouse cannot hire the best attorneys to represent her because attorney ethics prevents attorneys from representing parties that are conflicted out (in interest). That initial consultation creates a conflict of interest that will prevent that lawyer from representing your spouse. This will force your spouse to settle for, hopefully, a TTT divorce lawyer that can be easily handled. Ok maybe this tip has been out there a while and is nothing new.

    Ok, this is my last tip for the day. Forum selection. Ever hear of it? Imagine you can pick your own judge. Well you can in divorce court. Unfortunately, I did not find out how until my last divorce but this tip my save a few of you. It is kind of a complex process but if anyone is interested in me divulging this completely legal and ethical strategy, let me know and I will post this ultimate coup de grace on your spouse.


    “CARBONDALE, Ill. -- Faculty at the Southern Illinois University School of Law recently unanimously approved a commitment pledge for disability diversity within the legal profession.

    The American Bar Association’s Commission on Mental and Physical Disability Law created the voluntary pledge in response to the lack of lawyers with disabilities in the profession, according to the organization’s website. “A Pledge for Change” affirms a commitment to diversity, including individuals with mental, physical and sensory disabilities, within the legal profession.”

    Wow! The Saluki Times reports that SIU law faculty adopted a disability diversity pledge. You guys are real trailblazers, aren’t you?! So does this mean you will be happy to make a serious buck off of disabled students now? Remember, that law firms are not too keen on hiring disabled attorneys.

    It is not fair, but law firms, prosecutors’ offices, and even Public Defenders do not want to hire someone in a wheelchair. Law is about image, and clients want someone who fits their idea of a lawyer. Do you think most DAs wants to run the risk of a handicapped prosecutor sitting second chair in a big trial? There is a lot of discrimination in the legal field.

    Biglaw firms do not want to hire 33 year-old summer associates – even those who make law review. They want people they can mold. A 33 year-old will have his own experiences and work style; he might even be (gasp) independent!

    Such firms also do not want to hire a butterball. They have an image and reputation to uphold, damn it! Hiring a 5’8” slob who weighs 230 pounds is not in line with their image of “success.” Even though such attorneys will rarely be in front of a judge, prospective big-dollar clients can be even more unforgiving – when it comes to unkempt lawyers.

    Here is part of the pledge:

    “As Legal Employers, Chief Legal Officers, Hiring Partners, and Hiring Personnel, we hereby affirm our commitment to diversity, including diversity regarding individuals with mental, physical, and sensory disabilities, in the legal profession.”

    How many people do you know who want to hire a lawyer suffering from a mental disability?!?! Will the ABA’s friends in Biglaw come running to hire such people – when they cannot even bring themselves to hire a blind person or someone in a wheelchair?!

  56. Nando, the DOJ hires attorneys with mental disabilities. Surely SIU is trying to meet the overwhelming demand for mentally disabled lawyers.

    "The Department of Justice welcomes and encourages applications from persons with physical and mental disabilities."--taken from:

  57. Just saw this story over at ATL:

    I sigh whenever I read shit like this. It proves that today's generation of lawyers/law students have been completely dumbed down. I mean here is a school (U. of Miami Law) that warned its entering class to defer and to think long and hard before enrolling in law school. Still the lemmings persisted and now they are getting hit with a dose of reality. Fuck them. They were warned. No sympathy from me.

  58. "The Department of Justice welcomes and encourages applications from persons with physical and mental disabilities."

    I guess the faculty at SIU Sewer of Law thinks that “welcomes and encourages” means “hires.” Of course, they are going to say that; they are an executive agency of the federal government! They are not going to say: “Those suffering from physical and mental disabilities need not bother applying”?!?!

    Honestly, they need to visit a courtroom and count the number of disabled prosecutors and private attorneys they see.

    Law schools are MORE THAN HAPPY to accept the tuition, i.e. federally-backed student loan money, of those who have an infinitesimally small chance of ever practicing law, i.e. those suffering from mental, physical or sensory disabilities. I see this pledge as nothing more than another cheap trick. After all, who can be against being more inclusive of those suffering from disabilities?

    The reality of the situation is this: law firms and clients generally do not want a disabled person taking on their case. In their minds, this exhibits “weakness,” a decidedly bad trait for a lawyer. Adversarial lawyers will jump all over this perceived weakness, which means they will be less likely to offer favorable settlements.

    Remember, these students require ADA accommodations and extra time to take law school essays and the bar exam. This breeds resentment from fellow law students. Plus, the law schools already make a killing off of those students who have little shot of ever being hired as lawyers.

    “Despite the effort to legislate equality, law students with disabilities are, on average, less likely to get jobs in private practice than the rest of their class, according to the National Association for Law Placement (NALP).

    About 68 percent of 427 disabled graduates surveyed from the class of 2000 had found full- or part-time legal jobs nine months after graduation, compared with about 80 percent for the class as a whole. Disabled law grads, however, are more likely to find government and public interest positions than their classmates are. Part of the reason may be that some disabled graduates say they want to avoid working the long hours typically expected of new lawyers at large private firms. Or they may feel that government agencies are more likely to grant accommodations like flexible schedules. Nearly 21 percent of disabled graduates in the class of 2000 found jobs in the public or public interest sector, compared with 16 percent for the class as a whole, according to NALP.

    That may be one reason lawyers with disabilities earn, on average, less than nondisabled lawyers. The average starting salary for all graduates from the class of 2000 was $67,786. Disabled graduates made, on average, $7,228 less-nearly an 11 percent difference.”

    I too saw how some of my former classmates talked about how they could have earned better grades, had they been given time and a half in a quiet room. This article is from 2002, but even the NALP concedes that disabled law students are less likely to land jobs in private practice.

  59. I am Anonymous 7:46 from 10/10 -- I didn't read any of the divorce stuff, sorry. I graduated from SIU about 10 years ago. With regard to Biglaw, one of the summa cum laudes of my class worked at Bryan Cave. Both he and #1 in our class work are Asst. US Attorneys now. Looking at other people in the top 10 from my class that I can find, there is one solo, one gov't, one Asst State's Attorney, one who works at a Big 10 school, and one PI attorney.

    Bryan Cave and other big St. Louis firms would do On Campus Interviews when I was there.

    When Matt Hale was a 3L, he was my next door neighbor. I think he got thru SIU Law because he really kept a low profile his 1st and 2nd years. His 3d year, he started spewing his hate and trying to get everybody to convert to a raw vegetable and fruit diet. He caused a ruckus when Morris Dees spoke at the law school. Matt Hale was pale and skinny then and had a pale and skinny wife.

    Until his disciple Ben Smith started gunning down people, I thought Matt Hale was a harmless loudmouth.

    As for me, I knew when I signed on to SIU that I was going back to the small metro area where I lived before law school--which is heavily populated with SIU Law grads. I wasn't shooting for Biglaw anyway.

  60. Divorce lawyer: Conflicting out the best lawyers is a good trick that not a lot of people know. I wouldn't do it with 12 lawyers though. Here judges get mad when you do it that obviously and will strike your motion to disqualify the lawyer if you obviously tried to bad faith conflict out the best lawyers. I'd scam conflict out no more than 5 lawyers and keep the 6th as your attorney.

    All divorce lawyers are TTT lawyers. It's unheard of for an Ivy lawyer to practice divorce. You'll need to find out who the best divorce lawyers are from a method other than where they went to law school. In most states, you get to substitute out one judge as a matter of right. I wonder if you really are a NYC hiring partner as opposed to a law student. The above information is pretty common knowledge for people who practice law.

  61. And one more thing -- SIU and NIU seem to have a disproportionately high number of judges, when compared to other schools. 66 NIU grads are judges. About 70 SIU grads are judges. Or maybe good schools don't brag about that kind of information.

  62. 1:51PM

    The trick of disqualifying more than 5 divorce attorneys is to consult with them on other matters not involving divorce. Many divorce lawyers have general practice areas such as civil litigation, tax appeals, criminal, traffic and commercial litigation. Not that it would matter but if for some peculiar reason I became insane and re-married, I know Raoul Felder will never be my opposing counsel.

    The fact is I have many legal issues that come up on a day to day basis. The law doesn't prevent me from consulting different attorneys, who also happen to be excellent divorce attorneys, on a wider array of legal issues. Only an amateur would see all 12 lawyers for a divorce consultation (but I apologize for not pointing this out earlier).

    I never said the best divorce attorneys came from the Ivy league. There are some TTT lawyers that are good divorce attorneys but it is still the exception rather than the rule. Rauol Felder went to NYU Law, hardly a TTT.

    As for forum selection, I was not referencing substitution as of right. There is a more clever way to guarantee you will get the judge you want. The more I think about it, I should write a book about this rather than give all this wisdom free to unappreciative folks. You can thank 1:51PM for ruining the ride. Good day.

  63. As far as Lawyers ago, about 99% of them suffer from a rare and tragic birth defect:

    Born without a personality.

    That said, I vow to continue to fight until this terrible disease is wiped off the face of the Earth!

    You hear me! The EARF!

  64. To 2:40:

    EVERYBODY writes a book nowadays..

    Ho Humm.........

  65. To the 3X divorce guy (half-crazed and we all love it)

    Here is a little song you might like, if you haven't heard it already.

    I sure do.

    All comments are disabled for this video. I wonder why?

  66. "Most people (except for our beloved Col. Sanders) are other people.

    Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."

    Oscar Wilde

  67. This has become a one-stop shop for great advice. Avoiding law school debt. Avoiding TTTs. Avoiding marriage to a maneater. How to get a lump sum judgement (instead ofmonthly alimony payments) in a divorce proceeding by faking ill declining health. Preventing a vindictive spouse from getting the best divorce lawyers. How to get over a hangover by drinking lots of chocolate milk in the morning. All I need now is some advice on how to fix the squeaking noise under my passenger front tire. I think it mihght be a problem with the shocks. When I back out of the driveway or make a turn, the noise starts. (Being a TTT grad) I don't have the money to shell oiut to a mechanic.

  68. I agree with 5:34. The comment section of this blog has become really informative and entertaining.

    Divorced lawyer: I'd never heard of Raoul Felder. I'm from Chicago. Here most AUSAs don't go into divorce. Good for him. He shoulds like he makes money.

  69. Nando, before you go writing off wheelchaired barristers, I will have you know they do exist. Here is one in action:

    What do you have against disabled people? If a blind man wants to become a fireman, the ADA preserves that right. Besides a blind fireman knows no fear and he cannot fear what he cannot see.

  70. Nando:

    I am a practicing attorney who has a physical disability, and no, I did not go to SIU. I graduated at the top of my class from a T25 school in Illinois. To put it mildly, your comments about legal employers not hiring people with disabilities demonstrates a disturbing amount of ignorance on your part.

    I have practiced for both a well-respected law firm in Chicago and for the government, and my disability in no way hindered me from obtaining legal employment. In fact, it actually helped get me hired for at least one job because the employer was impressed by my credentials, particularly given all that I have to overcome being disabled. You would be surprised at how many people have a family member or know someone who is disabled.

    In addition, I am not quite sure how opposing counsel could try and take advantage of me based on a perceived weakness. Practicing law involves using your mind and hard work, it is not a pick-up game of hoops. As for my clients, they could care less about my disability. The only thing they care about is my ability to represent them, which I do very well. Again, a number of clients have been impressed with my disability because they told me it is a trademark of good character. I have also met clients at charity events related to my disability.

    Finally, I find it egregious that someone who has never practiced law deems himself qualified to comment on now disabled attorneys are treated in the legal profession. What is your basis for knowing this? Do you just happen to know everything?

    I think you do a good job in spreading the word about the law school scam, although I do 't always agree with you. You often make very good points. But your comments about how disabled attorneys are perceived in the legal profession is way off the mark.

  71. This is the previous poster who has a physical disability. I also meant to add that the NALP statistics from 2000 are not very convincing on a number of levels. First, the gap of non-disabled lawyers and disabled lawyers who found employment within in 9 months, although noticeable, is not significant in my opinion. I have not done research, but I would bet that the percentage of disabled people who find work In the legal profession is consist with disabled people in other professions.

    Second, the reason that it may take a disabled person longer to get a full time job is because, based on my experience, most disabled attorneys want to work for the government or a non-profit as opposed to a law firm. Most disabled attorneys that I know are committed to advocating on behalf of other disabled people, and working for the government or a nonprofit give them ten best opportunity to do that. Also, government work tends to provide better benefits than the private sector, which is naturally very important to disabled people. Unfortunately, it often takes longer to get hired at q government agency or for a nonprofit because there is usually less turnover at those places. But, again, most disabled attorneys I know where able to secure legal employment.

    As for me, the reason why I left private practice for government work is because 1. the benefits are fantastic, and 2. my hours are much better. I can work the 80 hour weeks at a law firm, but for me, enjoying life is more important than a big bank account.

    So please don't use disabled lawyers as a pawn in your personal vendetta with law schools. It demonstrates a lack of class.

  72. October 12, 5:34:

    Ball joint maybe?

    Here is a video that might help you for the job.

    Of course this guy has the car on a lift.

    Chances are you will be doing it on the ground.
    Hopefully when it is not raining or snowing.

    Auto Mechanics is a Bitch!

    Your family and friend will forgive your frustration I'm sure, as you shout FUCK! FUCK! FUCK! after you skin your knuckles, pull your back out. get grease and grit in your hair etc.

    Always use jackstands. Safety first!

    But tell me, is the noise a squeal or a rattle, or both? HOw old is the car.

    It might be something else. I'll have to think about this one.

  73. Oct 12, 9:43

    Speaking for myself, I in no way mean any disrespect with my joke about lawyers being born with no personality.

    If you work in the construction trades, pretty much everyone has an accident of some sort after x-number of years.

    We are all just a prayer away from becoming disabled every single day.

    My late grandfather was a lineman, and he used to tell me stories about retrieving the bodies of other lineman who had been electrocuted. One man had been completely cut in two by a live powerline.

    On another occassion, my grandfather told me about how he had climed down from working on a pole-- and an astonished person told him that he had a halo over his head. It was an overcast and misty day, he said, so maybe that had something to do with it.

    Or my Grandfather was/is just a saint. Which I won't dispute.

    There is a contractor working in my neighborhood that fell off a roof. He cannot get out of his van, but he supervises the rennovation that his company is doing.

    It is his knowledge that counts.

  74. To the disabled attorney(s) I offended, my brother-in-law has hydrocephalus, among some physical disabilities. My wife describes him as “having the mind of a five year old child.” In fact, he is in town and staying in my basement for a few days.

    From an NALP report from December 2009:

    “Of the approximately 110,000 lawyers for whom disability information was reported in the 2009-2010 NALP Directory of Legal Employers (NDLE), just 255, or 0.23%, were identified as having a disability, as shown in the accompanying table. About 18% of offices chose to report “not collected” or “unknown” for these counts. Among the offices collecting the information, about 13% reported at least one lawyer with disabilities, but only a handful reported at least one summer associate with a disability. In fact, out of more than 9,000 summer associates, only nine were reported as having a disability.

    Unlike the figures reported for openly GLBT lawyers, the numbers of lawyers who are reported as having a disability do not seem to vary in any systematic way either by firm size or by associate/partner status. The numbers reported are very low and percentages are about 0.25% overall.”

    I realize that quite a few disabled lawyers work for non-profits such as legal aid or disability law centers. Perhaps, many choose this over the private sector, but the law firms are not too heartbroken over this either. (Or do you feel that this report is unreliable?) Just look at the charts. Does it stand to reason that a mere 9 out of 9,256 summer associate clerkships went to disabled students?!

    While it is (somewhat) admirable to work for non-profits or government, how many people would turn down a chance to make $160K to work for legal aid - especially when they owe a mountain of student loan debt?! Unless, of course, you think that graduating with $100K in student debt - to land a job making $35K is a good investment.

    Don’t you dare lump me in with the private law firms who do not hire disabled lawyers. I merely pointed out this fact. Why don’t you also jump all over NALP for reporting such info? If you want to defend this industry, you might want to find better leverage than disabled lawyers. The fact remains that private law firms hire very few such attorneys.

    I briefly practiced law as a “student attorney.” I also interned with a court, during law school. I did not see a single attorney or prosecutor with a disability in that time. The reality is that the legal field discriminates - whether on the basis of race, class, ethnicity, age, disability, etc. I have also seen hearings in federal court. ALL of the AUSAs I saw would have fit in with a Biglaw firm; I also did not see one, single disabled lawyer in U.S. District Court.

    I never met John Wellman, but apparently he was a very capable and skilled Public Defender - despite losing his eyesight at age 17.

  75. I don't see where nando went after handicapped people. And he has gone after a lot of people on this web site. He even went after the fatfuckers. If I were crippled I would be pissed at private legal employers, not the guy pointing out the lack of hires.

  76. Lawyer or not - you will be working until you are 85 years old, and with no retirement to boot. Quit trying to make everyone think that "there are no jobs." Get back to work and get used to it!


    “With 45,000 new lawyers emerging annually to fill 30,000 jobs, how much of an argument does it take to suggest that the numbers don't work? And that doesn't even address whether those 30,000 jobs are really needed, or can be successfully absorbed into the market. Bear in mind that we're talking jobs, which means we're ignoring the starving solo practitioners sitting by the phone waiting for it to ring. Or brainstorming his next twit in the hope of scaring up a case.

    The immediate reaction from those whose livelihoods depend on the constant influx of new children into the meat grinder was as anticipated: They don't see a problem.”

    - Scott Greenfield

    This is a highly skilled litigator saying this. Now the question is Am I going to listen to some pipsqueak law student or an aggressive (and opinionated) lawyer on the subject? Hmmm, I think I’ll go with Greenfield on this one. Honestly, what does Greenfield have to gain by saying this? Oh, id he afraid of more newbie lawyers cutting him up in court? Or taking business away from him? Heck, he would just wipe the floor with ‘em. Even worse than how nando beats you down.

    Chris, who said There are no jobs? Where did you read that> Aren’t people saying There are not enough jobs for the amount of lawyers produced annually. Even a low-functioning person as your-self (eg, a nice way of saying retard) can figure that out.

  78. I knew a female lawyer who was blind. She had her seeing-eye-dog Vinnie in the courtroom with her. He would sprawl out under the defense table but wasn't too big on proper decorum. Every now and then, the dog would make a muffled woofing noise that grew into actual barking. I think she trained him to do that when opposing counsel was scoring points. I noticed that after those well-timed outbursts she rewarded him with snausages.

    When we took breaks from the proceedings, she would take Vinnie outside to do his business. I often offered to walk him for her. I got a kick that he could literally get away with taking a shit on the courthouse steps. Sometimes, I wished that for a few minutes I could be that dog.

  79. Don't knock the disabled lawyer. In fact, there are some limited circumstances where having a disabled lawyer in your pocket could prove the trump card.

    True story. In 1998, we had a trial that dragged on and the client was getting restless over mounting attorneys' fees. We knew if it went to the jury, the client would probably lose. The judge in the case had a short fused temper. The fact that trial was cutting into his golf/nap times was making him more impatient. We had an associate that had Crohn's disease. We put him as second chair in the case. Well that move turned out to be genius because essentially he was the show stopper. The foul odor of liquid dung quickly emptied the court room almost every hour. I recall by the end of the second day, we had to send someone uptown to Macy*s to buy a dozen Hanes briefs. The judge became so irrate that he ordered a conference in chambers and basically told the other side to settle the case right then and there or he would find a way to get off the case and drag it even longer. In the end, the case settled, the client was content and the Crohn's associate became the de facto hero of the case.

    I also seem to recall a case a couple of decades ago involving a blind attorney that had an eye seeing dog that evoked many "ooohs and awwws." Apparently that dog won over many juries and cases too.

  80. Nando:

    This is the disabled attorney who previously commented. Here are some points:

    1: The statistic that only 255 of 11,000 attorneys reported themselves is meaningless to your argument. Perhaps not too many disabled people want to become lawyers. Or, perhaps disabled attorneys don't want to identify themselves out of fear that people like you will take advantage of them to promote their own agendas. You imply that there are legions of disabled attorneys out there looking for work but can find any because they are disabled. This is simply not the case based on my experience.

    2. As for only .25 of summer associates, again, this number is meaningless without context. Maybe not that many disabled attorneys wanted to work as a summer associate in a law firm. As I mentioned in a previous post, most disabled attorneys I know seek work in the non-profit sector or government because they feel committed to advocate on behalf of disabled people and because of the generous benefits.

    3. Unlike you, I don't pretend to know know what motivates people to turn down 160K a year to work for a legal aid group, I do, however, know this: (a) not everyone is motivated by money or wants to work in big law; and (b) not all law students - even disabled ones - graduated with debt. Some have scholarships, family support, and savings.

    4. Your comment that I am lumping you with private law firms is a figment of your tortured imagination. I was responding to your comment that "Law schools are MORE THAN HAPPY to accept the tuition, i.e. federally-backed student loan money, of those who have an infinitesimally small chance of ever practicing law, i.e. those suffering from mental, physical or sensory disabilities. I see this pledge as nothing more than another cheap trick. "

    I think this is an incredibly weak argument and is inconsistent with my personal experience as a practicing attorney with a disability. And on a related note, I am not defending this industry. Rather, I am merely pointing out that you are making a weak argument. Why is it that every time someone disagrees with you, they are law school apologists. Do you really see the world in such a black-and-white, with-us-or-against-us manner?

    5. That's great that you practiced law as a "student attorney." But just because you did not encounter any disabled attorneys does not mean that that are not out there. I run into disabled attorneys in federal court on a regular basis. It's not every day, but I do see them.

    Finally, let's keep this in context. You posted about SIU being a toilet, which, frankly, I have no way of knowing whether this is true. You then made a comment suggesting that this school intentionally takes advantage of disabled students to get their tuition knowing that the legal industry is biased towards disabled attorneys. I made the point that (a) the evidence you used from NALP does not support your conclusion; (b) your conclusion is inconsistent with my experiences as an actual practicing attorney with a disability.

    Again, I find it horrible that you are willing to shamelessly use disabled attorneys as a tool to advance your own agenda. Have you ever talked to a disabled law student or attorney to get their perspective? For some reason, I doubt it.

  81. Who cares about the disabled except the disabled? I'm just being honest. There are at least a few thousand, if not more, regular,average, unemployed attorneys who frequent this site I'm sure.

    Let me share a story. When I was in school there were people who had "disabilities." One such individual, I will call "Bill," claimed he was dyslexic and had ADHD. Now because this was Massachusetts, and he slipped his doctor a few hundred bucks, he got 6 hours for exams and a special room to cheat in all alone. While the rest of us were furiously writing upstairs he was relaxing and probably having a good jerkoff in his special room. Now I really resented his stupid ass. He got special accommodations on the MPRE also. Now this kid was had third highest GPA in my class. He was smart as fuck and did not need those accommodations. The school didn't give a shit because his aunt worked in the registrations office.

    Here is another example. There was a girl who had "mental" problems admitted to the school in my L2 year. She had gone somewhere else but she needed her mom to hang around and help her all day long because of her physical limitations. She had super-long accommodation times and had no ability to speak (and be understood). Someone like that is NOT going to practice law.

    There are too many normal lawyers who are getting the shaft for everyone to be worried about recruiting minorities and disabled people for a flooded market. Especially when they are passed only because they are minorities/disabled.

  82. Some disabled people use their disability as a weapon and we have the law (ADA) to thank for that.

    Modern day drug traffickers often employ disabled people as drug mules to transport drugs into the United States. For example, next time you are on a flight from Bolivia or Colombia to the United States, it never fails that there is at least one passenger with a prosthetic limb. Guess what is in that limb? Coffee beans (to throw off the scent K9s) and cocaine. These folks don't get hassled by customs or the TSA because the ACLU will go nuclear on them. All I am saying is why should disabled people get a free pass at customs when some Tom, Dick or Harry has to get a rubber finger up his rectum at secondary inspection?

    When I went to law school, we had no accommodations for bullshit "mental" disabilities such as AHD, ADD, OCD, MUD (made up disability), etc. It kills me that today kids are gaming the system by claming to be afflicted with MUD. If you ask me, there should be no accommodations in the legal profession. Do you want a fireman with spina bifida to come to your rescue when you are knocked unconscious in a fire?

    I have no problem with folks that have physical disabilities from becoming lawyers. However, if they claim to have mental issues that require "special accommodations" for time, then that person has no business being a lawyer. Do you think a client wants to hire a lawyer that takes 3 times longer than an average lawyer to read a pleading? Do you really think that client will think "you know, I have no problem being billed triple on this matter since the firm is a believer in diversity and employs mentally disabled attorneys."

  83. What the guy said above is true. Fellow law students don't like having their dicks pulled by this ADD, ADHD, ODD disorder scheme. We had law review kids at my school that were diagnosed as ADD. They were given extra time for exams in separate rooms, while the rest of us were in those high-pressure cookers listening to the deafening clicking of keyboards. Not to mention the countless stressed nerves in that room. Uh, you think that may have made a difference between a C+ and an A? six hours versus four hours. My parents beat me when I was small. I shoulda claimed an emotional or mental disorder. In generations past, if you had ADD or dyslexia, guess what they called that supposed condition? Being stupid. And you didn't get extra time to take a test. And the way LS is set up, your future is pretty much set after first semester grades come out. Your possibilities anyway.

  84. I was at the local DMV earlier this year and while I was on the line, there was a young woman talking on her cell phone complaining about having to wait on line for a "handicap" decal but also bragging to her friend that she will now be able to park in front of restaurants, stores, malls, etc. in premium location spaces. I could hear the friend on the other line say "How did you score that?" Her reply was "bitch, don't you know I have tourette's." Every year since the ADA was enacted the list of newly discovered disabilities keeps growing. You know what, I think I may head to my physician and say I suffer from MUD. I want special treatment. I want extra time to do my work. I want the courts to extend the deadlines just for me on account of my disability. I want premium parking locations and preferred seating at arenas and restuarants.

  85. I wait in the expectation of what will be the next Tiffany-priced terlet revealed on this hallowed site.

    Onward, scamblog fans!

  86. 1:34 has an intuitive sense of when things are winding down for a post. Almost psychic. I agree.

    Next Toilet Please!

    But Wow! I think I'll decline and comment and back off from this issue of disabilities, having little experience with ADD or MUD or whatever else it may be called.

    The seeing eye dog story that was fed Snausages scored a 10 on the laugh meter though.

    But I remember a few summers ago, going to an old guy's house and seing his collection of antique cars.

    At first he showed me two or three that were sitting outside.

    When I expressed my enthusiasm, he said:

    "Let me go and grab the keys and unlock this door" (to the barn).

    It was a large barn, and literally packed full of antique cars. Model T's. Model A's. Woody's, trucks, etc. etc. You name it. An obsessive collection.

    One such car was a 1930's era car that was the same exact year and model that was converted into a special handicapped vehicle for Franklyn Delano Roosevelt, or FDR.

    It wasn't Roosevelt's old car, but as I say, the same unconverted model.

    Very nice. They really built cars by hand in those days, and a testimonial to craftsmanship. Right down to the paint.

    So, in conclusion, there are Physical handicaps, and there are also mental handicaps.

    Roosevelt ran a Country it goes without saying, with a physical handicap.

    And for all of you who are so proud of your mental cognition, just remember that someday a stroke or brain aneurysm is always a possiblilty.

    A car accident can deliver a blow to the head as well.

    One time I passed a car accident scene with all lights flashing on a local highway.... and I saw the most confusing thing as I drove by.

    I had to think it over for a while.How did it happen?

    It was a person or probably or God-willing and mercifully, a body-- lying on the rear trunk of the car. Completely free of the vehicle.

    A rear end collision.

    Incredibly severe impact.

  87. "A great city, whose image dwells in the memory of man, is the type of some great idea. Rome represents conquest; Faith hovers over the towers of Jerusalem; and Athens embodies the pre-eminent quality of the antique world, Art."

    Benjamin Disraeli

    So, what is America?

    Perhaps better answered by Cryn Johanssen.

    Education Matters.

  88. Anyone who picks this profession and isn't going to T is mentally ill. My favorite board to watch T1s jerk each other off on is

  89. Three time marital loser back for a final thought on this thread.

    Any one of us is only a car accident away from ending up physically disabled. I have great compassion for the physically disabled. Yet, most physically disabled folks I have encountered in my life have a chip on their shoulder. For example, I went to law school with a blind chap who was a prick to everyone and would often say mularkey such as "If a blind man can understand that concept and you can't, you must be a moron." Despite these perceptions about the physically disabled, I respect them and I would not underestimate their legal abilities or classify their physical disability as a weakness.

    That being said, I agree with what some posters have mentioned about "mental" disabilities. Back in the 60s and 70s, there was no ADD or dyslexia. I truly believe that at the core of our minds, we all suffer from some sort of "mental" disorder. Some of us live with it, adapt and overcome, others use is as a crutch to gain special accommodations and treatment. For these class of people, I have no respect for. They may think they are getting ahead but it is only for the short run. In the long run, they are fucking themselves over. These folks may get special breaks (extra time on exams, etc.) prior to becoming a lawyer but the legal profession weeds them out. I met Bill Kunstler a few times when he was alive. That man was brilliant yet it was clear something was wrong with his head. I never saw him use this as an excuse to get by. The point I am trying to make is that the legal profession is not that compassionate about attorneys who cry "mental disability." These folks usually wind up working for the government, which welcomes that kind with open arms. As an observation, clients will not pay double time and judges will not extend deadlines to disabled lawyers. If you blow the statute of limitations by a day, I dare an attorney plead "but judge, I have ADD and the deadline slipped my mind." Too bad, call your malpractice insurance carrier and tell them about it shmuck.

    I wish during any of my divorces I could have told the macabre judge "Judge, cut me a break. I am mentally disabled. Anyone who marries three times to greedy hussies should be declared mentally insane and unfit to shell out alimony." I would have been laughed out of court or held in contempt.

    Yet OTOH, Paul McCartney's second spouse (heather mills?) was able to hobble into court on one leg (I believe she took off her prosthetic leg during trial) and still managed to score a sweet divorce judgment that emasculated Paul for life. Fair? No but this is life and it isn't fair.

    Is it fair that kids are getting duped into attending schools such as SIU or any school previously featured by the blogger of this site? No, it isn't. Is it fair that law school deans and administrators of these awful law schools are feasting like pigs at the trough while you consume a high sodium diet of ramen noodles, struggling to make your student loan payments? Of course not.

    Nando, I don't know you but I do tip my cap to you. You have balls to stand up to these schools and identify some serious overlooked flaws in the legal education system. Unforutnately, your warnings will only save a few. Meanwhile, many more "mentally disabled" lemmings will continue to enroll in these decrepit legal landfills and pay top dollar for a defective product. Perhaps then can these kids claim "mental disability" when the student loan collectors start calling and garnishing their wages. Goodnight.

  90. best thread to date. Marriage guy needs to post more as law school debt/practice leads to divorce which probably leads to disability at some point.

    Where can I get a handicap sticker and some KFC. I went to a 4th tier law school, practice law and am getting killed financially by marriage and look like shit. Good thing I dont have a gardner and live in the country or it might be easier for my wife to give it up to everyone but me.

  91. I think all the talk about ADD started in the late 80's or early 90's.

    My sister used to teach school, and was more than happy when she learned that some hyperactive and disruptive kid had been put on Ritalyn.

    I remember telling this to someone sort of jokingly, and he paused and in an offended sort of way told me: "I took Ritalin in College, and it helped my grades and helped me to focus etc."

    I don't know. I don't understand it.

    Another phenomena everybody is wringing their hands over is Autism. And it seems to be on the rise.

    I was in the convenience store at a gas station not too long ago, and a mother was there with her son who must have been around 10 years old.

    The boy kept flapping his arms and darting beck and forth, while the clearly well-to-do mother seemed oblivious or just too used to it.

    Forgive me for saying it, but I had a vague feeling that the kid was waving his arms intentionally in whole or in part.

    I mean, if enough people tell a kid: "Don't do that", or if the behavior clearly gets a lot of attention or distresses people, what is a kid going to do?

    Then if he is on Meds as well, is the kid really being helped?

  92. Goodnight from here too.

    3AM is the "Witching Hour"

    Doesn't this clip kind of sum up the regret, and how it all feels with life now in the crapper.

    When she asks: "What is that?" it is Al Lord stomping through the underbrush.....

  93. @ 6:52...
    Southern New England / UMASS Law is a TTTTT. It is not even accredited, which means it doesn't even exist--not even to the lowest of the low shithole employers. You can't even tell friends and family that you graduated from a law school because you really haven't. I feel for you bro.

  94. After reading a few of these blog posts from the front page, it looks like they're all the same: pick a school, then rant about the cost and the employment stats. Pick out one faculty member and rail about the salary he gets. It's cookie-cutter blogging. There are no details about why these schools in particular are bad (other than being TTT's and TTTT's whose grads will have difficulty finding any sort of law firm job, of course).

    One thing in particular that I find misleading is the lumping in of basic living expenses with the cost of going to school. Sure, add rent and food to the cost of tuition and books at SIU, and suddenly someone is going to need to take out $90K in loans. So? They'd have those expenses even if they weren't in law school. The alternative would be, what, living under a bridge and eating out of dumpsters? Yeah, that works for reducing costs. :-/ But they could do that while in law school, too.

    I'm a 3L at UIUC (T1, currently USNWR#21), and we get about half a dozen SIU students evey year as transfers. I haven't seen any ex-NIU students yet, but I know we have one from Michigan State (that's the T3 in Michigan, not the big one). As a stepping-stone up to T1, SIU seems to work, at least for the top of their 1L class.

    Don't get me wrong, if your blog dissuades one student from getting screwed out of $150K in exchange for a piece of paper that qualifies them to work at McDonalds, that's great. And I understand the one-sidedness as being a part of advocacy (i.e., never stop kicking a defendant even when he's down). However, you could at least take a photo of a bathroom at the actual school in question, rather than relying on stock photos of gas station restrooms, or wherever it is that you get those barfalicious images from.

  95. thank you for your insight. i thought about law school and maybe attending SIU because of the low tuition. now i won't even think about attending SIU unless i get a full ride scholarship. have you thought about doing an article on MU law? thanks, you comments are informative and entertaining.

  96. So I'm considering SIU Law. My LSAT will merit a full-tuition scholarship there, and I can live with my parents in a nearby town. Hence, my expenses would be only fees, books, and the amount that tuition would increase in years two and three. I could get into SLU, DePaul, Loyola, or Chicago-Kent, but the employment prospects are not much better for a lot of their graduates, AND I'd be looking at six-figure debt. So I'm thinking that if I'm going to enter a shitty job market, I might as well do so with the smallest possible amount of debt, and SIU would serve best in that regard.

    Additionally, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd think that one would be better off graduating near the top of their class from SIU than in the middle at DePaul/Loyola/Chicago-Kent. I'm a very hard-working student, and if the LSAT is an accurate indicator of law school aptitude, then I think that a high class ranking at SIU would certainly be possible.


  97. sounds logical, less debt is much better than lots of debt going into a field that has very little prospects. then again just because you have a high lsat does not mean you will be in the top 10% at law school. Nando will probably know more but not as nice. make sure you really want to go to law school and what kind of law do you want to practice.

  98. looks like if you are cum laude, you can be successful at SIU. but the odds don't look good.

  99. After laughing my ass off for about 20 minutes from reading this blog I will put my two cents in. I went to SIUC and graduated with an undergrad degree recently. I have a good friend who went to law school at SIUC and I went down to visit and get wasted fucking chicks doing blow all the good stuff I missed when I was down there for my undergrad. Well he and 6 other graduates I know all have no jobs and live with there parents. 3 were in the top half the others in the middle of the graduating class. Only one other grad I know of has a job doing paralegal work with his dad. It's a fucking scam and your better off going to a two year community college getting an IT degree. Furthermore I don't recommend anyone go to law school unless A you are rich, B you are extremely smart, and C know someone who can hook you up with a job. DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME OR YOU WILL REGRET IT. IF YOU WANNA MAKE BANK AND FUCK CHICKS BE A DOCTOR, THEY ARE IN HIGH DEMAND.

  100. re January 13, 2011 2:34 PM:

    Basically, you've got it about right.

  101. Sounds like your beef is with the legal profession, not the law school. It also sounds like you are just a genuinely miserable person whose attitude and the way you present yourself have much more to do with your inability to succeed in life than the school you attended. I teach law now (an SIU law grad) and I see students like you every day...excuse makers who either don't DO what it takes to succeed or don't HAVE what it takes to succeed. SIU isn't run that much differently than any other ABA accredited law school, and SIU students DO get jobs--good jobs. I worked for two SIU grads, one of whom is an AV rated attorney in the St. Louis market. It is crap like you that drags down the reputation of the school, not the school itself. The school has a terrific reputation in the metro east area specifically, and I found that I was able to land a job on equal footing with graduates of Wash U, St. Louis U, Illinois, etc. Look within dude. It might just be YOU who is the problem. As for cost of attendance, SIU is lower than many other law schools. If you could get into a better law school, why didn't you go to one. I am sure you made your classmates miserable for the three torturous years you were there. I have seen many more success stories from SIU than I have seen failures. If you think you would have had a radically different experience at another law school, I think you are seriously misguided.

  102. And remember you future law school attendees, this is one person's obviously very skewed and jaded opinion. william especially, make up your own mind based on the facts. Law school, regardless of where you go, is about how hard you work and the grades you get. No law school can promise you a job, and indeed, typically the people who rely heavily on a career services office are ones who are too lazy to go out and find their own damn job. Much of this is common sense people. I guarantee you you can do a lot worse than SIU. If you got good grades and a good LSAT score, you could certainly do better (at least as far as prestige). I for one am proud of my degree and where it has taken me. But it does take work ethic and the right attitude--two things I would question the author possesses.

  103. some facts
    1. law school is expensive
    2. no guarantee of a job in the legal profession.
    3. i am not attending SIU

  104. sorry to say william that there is no guarantee of getting a job anywhere in any profession with a degree from anywhere. From what or whom did you acquire this misguided assumption?

    Law school certainly is expensive, regardless of where you go.

    So there you have it, facts.

  105. i don't assume. btw why do you care? :/ i will say this, if you spend big $$ for a JD degree, the general assumption is that you get a career of being a lawyer. i do appreciate Nando's perspective of things. especially shedding the light on law schools. I'm sure SIU law school is a nice place, i'm sure students will still go there. i just won't be there.


    How are things in Brooklyn, you ball-less shill? If you are indeed "teaching law," then you have a direct financial stake in this matter. It is in your be$t intere$t for lemmings to believe that law school is a wise investment - when it, in fact, is not.

    Look, Herwig Schlunk - who teaches law at Vanderbilt University - has concluded that law school is NOT a good investment, for MOST law students.

    By the way, the Southern Illinois University School of Law is a pile of waste. Is that solely my assessment? It appears that US News & World Report feels that it is a toilet law school, as well.

    As you can see, SIU is still a fourth tier piece of garbage. What an accomplishment, right?!?! This must be why you have expressed such an interest in propping up your alma mater. It seems that you are divorced from reality. Oh well. Take solace in the fact that law schools will continue to bury legions more students in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt. That should help you sleep tonight, you snake-oil salesman.

    Time Visitor Session Referrer
    Mar 25 2011 12:42pm 2 actions 2m 9s
    Mar 25 2011 11:33am 3 actions 15m 27s
    Mar 25 2011 9:26am 2 actions 8m 48s
    Mar 25 2011 8:37am 1 action 10s
    Mar 25 2011 8:17am 2 actions 8m 47s
    Mar 25 2011 7:52am 4 actions 2m 8s
    Mar 25 2011 7:28am 1 action 1m
    Mar 25 2011 6:28am 2 actions 14s

    Back on July 30, 2010 at 9:24 pm, Professor J. Gordon Hylton at Marquette Law School had this to say about Third Tier Reality:

    “For a thought-provoking (and sobering) blog devoted to the realities of legal education in the 21st century, one should check out Third Tier Reality”

  107. Look at this prime quote, in the New York Times:

    “Avoid this overpriced sewer pit as if your life depended on it,” writes the anonymous author of the blog Third Tier Reality — a reference to the second-to-bottom tier of the U.S. News rankings — in a typically scatological review. “Unless, of course, you think that you will be better off with $110k-$190k in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt for a degree that qualifies you to wait tables at the Battery Park Bar and Lounge.”

    “This dismal situation was not created by the current recession—which merely spread the pain up the chain into the lower reaches of elite schools. This has been going on for years.

    The law graduates posting on these sites know the score. They know that law schools pad their employment figures—96% employed—by counting as “employed” any job at all, legal or non-legal, including part time jobs, including unemployed graduates hired by the school as research assistants (or by excluding unemployed graduates “not currently seeking” a job, or by excluding graduates who do not supply employment information).”

    Professor Brian Tamanaha, who teaches law at Washington University in St. Louis, came out in support of these scam-blogs - back on June 13, 2010.

    Take a look at William Henderson’s bi-modal analysis of recent JD starting salaries. It shows that if one does not come out making $160K, he will more than likely be looking at making $35K-$50K annually. Try paying off your massive student loan bill, on that figure.

    We are making some progress - as some law professors have the balls to point out that law school is a risky proposition. How do you like that, you piece of trash?

    You see, the JD Class of 2009 had 44,000 graduates – competing for 28,901 jobs requiring a law degree. (Hint: not all of these jobs are attorney positions.)

    From 1980-1981 to 2008-2009 – a span of 29 years - a cumulative total of 1,127,235 law degrees were awarded by ABA-accredited law schools. Yes, ONE MILLION, ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY-SEVEN THOUSAND, TWO HUNDRED AND THIRTY FIVE law degrees have been issued in the last 29 years, in the United States.

    Have fun trying to refute reality, cockroach.

  108. Oh, and to the fellow who has a squeaking noise under his left tire, do the following:

    1) Try to make the left front of your vehicle bounce by pushing down on the hood. Get it sort of going on its own, then let go. If it keeps bouncing on its own (more than three times) you have a shock/strut issues, if it stops almost immediately your shocks/struts are good.

    2) Jack up the front left side of your vehicle so that your tire can spin freely. Spin your wheel. It should spin on its own for at least 30 seconds. If it doesn't spin for at least that long, or if it doesn't and emits a squeaking sound you need a new wheel bearing (about a $20 part but annoying to install, methods of installation will vary depending on your make and model).

    3) If your wheel bearing is fine you may need new ball joints, although those generally won't squeak. To check to see if you need new ball joints (with the vehicle jacked up) grab the top and bottom of your tire and try to wiggle it. If your tire wiggles noticeably you need a new ball joint. About $30 and fairly simple to change on most vehicles.

    4) If your tire doesn't wiggle it could be the half-shaft. Its probably not, but to check if you need a new one take the vehicle off the jack, start it up and crank the wheel all the way to the left and turn in a circle, then go all the way to the right with the wheel and turn in a circle. If the vehicle makes a nasty grinding or clicking sound in the area of your left front tire you need a new half-shaft. You can do installation yourself on most cars, a half-shaft will cost around $50 depending on your make and model.

    That's all the advice I've got. Not that you probably still need it anyway.

  109. Given that this is still on the topic of SIU, even if the responses themselves no longer seem to be, I wanted to mention several things that appear to be lacking. I am not arguing about the current crap legal market or about the lack of worth a degree from a TTTT school has. I did want to clarify matters for those very few people who, like me, just need a cheap law degree from somewhere.

    First, SIU allows you to qualify for in-state tuition within six-months by 1) Registering to vote in IL, 2) Registering your vehicle in IL and 3) Obtaining an IL driver's license. That drops tuition to a still absurd, but slightly more sane, $13k a year.

    Second, SIU has a tuition freeze policy. Your tuition will not increase once you start courses there. It will remain the same for the duration of your legal education (or until you transfer out). If they offer you a full scholarship you will not have a tuition bill in 2L or 3L either. Assuming you meet GPA requirements.

    Which brings me to three. The usual methodology of crap TTTT schools is to offer you a full ride with impossible/highly difficult to meet conditions. So far as I can make out SIU does not do this. Conditions to maintain scholarships are fairly reasonable. Specifically you must have a GPA of at least 2.8, that being below their median required grade in 1L *1. Top 50% to maintain a scholarship from a T4 is not awful, its quite reasonable actually. Also, if you lose your scholarship after 1L but manage to get your GPA back up above 2.8 at the end of 2L (not probable, but it could happen) they'll reinstate your scholarship for 3L.

    In summary, yes there are too many law schools, yes there are too many law graduates for the limited legal market, but no, SIU is not a cesspit. At least not based on the information provided in this blog. That said, if anyone has specific "SIU sucks because of X" information, please share it, I'd like to know.

    If you somehow thought you were going to have the legal opportunities a T1 opens up (what few there are in this market) by going to a T4, you're in for pretty serious disappointment. If you just want a degree for one reason or another SIU appears to be better than most low end schools.

    1:According to 1(b)(iii) of the law school rules found here : the median for all required 1L courses shall be 2.85-2.95.

  110. Not disputing the overabundance of lawyers, but SIU allows out of state students to establish residency after six month. It isn't going to cost anyone 47k a year to go here.

  111. I am an SIU Law student. I have to take classes with complete dumb ass who failed her first year, sued the school b/c she has a "mental disability", and the school actually let her come back. She is a moron who should not be in law school and I feel like shit b/c I am at the same school with her.

    I guess I deserve it for going to this school...

    There is hope for students who wish to work in rural So. Ill. with other SIU alums or somewhere else where no one will care about your degree. The top 10% might find jobs with firms in STL or Chicago if they are lucky. If you are thinking about going to law school here, just be aware of these facts...

  112. Hey 8:43,guess what people talk out of there ASS all the time, especially lawyers. You ever see a tax return stating this loser friend of yours makes 300 thousand? Thats what I thought. Take it with a grain of salt and you will get alot farther in life instead of believing all the BULLSHIT you hear. THIS LAW SCHOOL SUCKS.

  113. About to graduate SIU myself.... Most of advice provided is good. Job market blows and going to SIU does not help. However, I personally have landed a job in St. Louis. If you are ranked in the top ten you may be able to land a job at Lewis and Rice, Husch Blackwell, Sandberg Phoenix.... and only if you are ranked first you may get an opportunity at Brian Cave. Otherwise look to smaller firms

    A few things to know before attending....some of the professors are great (mostly first year teachers to trick you into not transferring). However, some are aweful (which you realize if you do not transfer).

    Big picture-- for the money, not an aweful choice if plan on graduating top ten and are realistic about expectations. I am graduating with about 15K in debt and have a job making 62k. I have a job in the field i prefer and it was clearly the correct choice for me, as opposed to the alternative of unnecessary amounts of debt.

  114. Bottom line is that this school blows Asshole for 90 percent of the people who attend, AND THATS A FACT.

  115. This is a very unfair, defamatory assessment of a fine law school. Many very successful practicing attorneys and judges in Illinois have attended SIU-C Law School.

  116. Just got accepted into the SIUC school of law class of 2014. I'm not sure if you have even been to Southern Illinois, but it is a one of a kind place. If you have the right morivation and network the right way, SIUC can be an inexpensive route to a law degree. I am not sure what problem this author has with SIU school of law(Maybe he/she didn't get into the one he/she applied to), but I am happy I am entering the class of of 2017 and look forward to the opportunities SIUC law will grant for me in the future. Hopefully you find something more compelling to argue about than unemployment/debt for law school students. Ever since 2005, almost every job market has been declining, I don't know why you are just targeting law students, for lack of a better word, as being 'stupid". See ya in 5 years when I'm making 100k a year

  117. You will not come close to making $100K per year, as a graduate from this foul trash pit, Bitch. Enjoy your delusions of grandeur. That's all you have, waterhead.

    When you are drowning in large sums of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt - and you are earming $12 an hour - don't complain that you weren't warned, cockroach. The scam continues because idiots believe that THEY are going to be the exception to the rule. Get a life and grow a brain stem, you piece of trash.

  118. I just graduated from SIU Law, and without any outside help, found a job making $29k. I have to pay a $600 a month. I still have no regrets. I'm not the brightest guy in the world.

    I stumbled onto this blog by accident.

    I'm sorry I'm such a wicked failure. But what do you expect from attending this toilet?


  119. P.S.

    I also live at home with my mom and I'm 33. But it'll help me save some money. You can't do much as an SIU Law grad making less than $30k a year.

  120. It's not all bad... Depends on what you want. SIU is not a school for aspiring BigLaw associates. Public service and small ball civil practice is more our focus. The low tuition helps keep these goals within reach. Salukis are regionally known to be practice-ready go-getters that aren't afraid of paying dues with hard work. 10:01, Arnold's Market south of town has a great butcher. Perhaps, you should look into some crow cutlets around Spring 2017. As much as I'd like to paint a sunny $100K forecast, Nando's assessment of the law school business model is painfully accurate. Stop watching "Suits" and start focusing on developing skills that make you less of a throwaway than other newly minted JDs. First, you will have to face yourself and your shitty habits as a 1L. Until then, you haven't earned the right to so much as whisper about getting paid to practice law. You're just a puppy, 10:01. Own it.


    I do not plan on making 100k a year anytime soon, but I do have multiple-legitimate job prospects lined up for me when I graduate in May of next year, all likely to start over 40k.

    Furthermore, I would stack my legal education against top tier law school students any-day.

    However, after multiple interactions with law students from first tier schools, it is evident that I am just as prepared to practice law, if not more so, than a majority of other students I come in contact with outside the walls of our "sewer".

    1. How much debt do you have from attending this shithole? Gotta take that into account.

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