Sunday, October 17, 2010

Third Tier Rathole: Pace University Law School

Tuition: For the 2010-2011 school year, a full-time student at Pace University Law School will pay $39,546 in tuition. A part-time law student will only be charged $29,662 in tuition for the same academic year.

Total Cost of Attendance: Under the worst-case scenario, i.e. a full-time student living independently and off-campus, personal expenses are estimated to be $17,320 for one year. When you add in the costs of book/supplies and transportation, another $3,150 is added to the tab. For such a student, the total COA for one year would amount to $60,016.

Ranking: That is one hell of an investment to make, isn’t it? Surely the school’s upstanding reputation in the legal and academic communities will make up for this cost, right?! Well, a publication going by the name of US News & World Report lists this school in the third tier of American law schools.

Starting Salary and Job Placement Figures: According to this supposed “quick facts” sheet, 94.3% of the Class of 2009 was employed or pursuing an advanced degree – within nine months of graduation. Yeah, sure they were - and Jessica Alba just climbed on top of me. Of course, the commode did not mention is the number of respondents to this survey.

Purported Bar Passage Rate: This same document lists a bar passage rate of 88% - for its recent graduates. However, we all know that bar passage does not equal legal employment.

“But for 27-year-old Mike Kremen, a law degree landed him a job as an assistant manager at Radio Shack.

Kremen graduated from Pace Law School about two years ago – right when the recession was picking up and the legal industry started to hemorrhage jobs. He’s still waiting for his first full-time legal job offer. He says he might be the only employee in the history of this White Plains Radio Shack who’s passed both the New York and Connecticut bar exams.”
[Emphasis mine]

Yeah, Kremen’s “legal education” sure paid off for him, didn’t it? He passed both the New York and Connecticut bar exams, and he started out making $7.65 an hour at Radio Shack?!?! Did that penetrate your gray matter, lemmings?!?!

“Kremen puts in about 11 hours a day, six days a week at radio Shack -– the kind of hours you see associates pulling at some of New York’s top law firms. But instead of a starting salary of $160,000, Kremen started here at $7.65 an hour.

Kremen still wants that New York law firm job. He’s straining under about $200,000 of law school and credit card debt.”

For the purposes of this festering toilet’s “fact sheet,” Mike Kremen counts as both having passed the bar exam – and as “employed.” How is that for added insult to injury?

Average Student Indebtedness: US News lists the average indebtedness of Class of 2009 Pace Law School grads who incurred law school debt at $83,515. Furthermore, this magazine reports that 87 percent of this toilet’s 2009 graduating class incurred law school debt.

Faculty and Administrator Pay: Head to Page 38 of Pace University’s 2009 Form 990. There you will see that “professor of law” Steven Goldberg made $263,863 in TOTAL COMPENSATION for 2008. Fellow “law professor,” John Nolon made $327,720 in TOTAL COMPENSATION for the same tax year. And, lastly, “professor” Nicholas Robinson made $258,629 in TOTAL COMPENSATION – for 2008.

Isn’t it great that “law professors” can teach out of the same old casebooks, provide the same dry-ass lectures year after year, work 4-6 hours a week, and still make more than a quarter of a million dollars a year?!?! Especially when those “professors” teach at TTTs that provide their students and graduates with pathetic job prospects? Isn’t it splendid?

Wow! You can write onto the Pace Environmental Law Review or the Pace International Law Review. What potential employer would not be impressed with such credentials?!?!

Conclusion: This school is an overpriced pile of decaying fecal matter and toxic waste. In short, it is a diploma mill. It does not give a damn about its students, upon graduation. They are simply a mean$ to an end. Do you want to end up with an additional $85K-$160K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt – so that you can continue to make sure your “Property professor” can make $327,720 in total compensation?!?!


  1. 94% placement my fuckin' ass. These shitlings must be counting burger flippers as employed. How do they get away with such rubbish.

  2. This "school" puts the TURD in "Turd Tier Reality."

  3. Mike Kremen is just a young baby from my perspective. With his whole life ahead of him.

    How is he supposed to manage his debtload of 200 thousand on the salary he is making?

    That figure can only grow over time unless a family member or a Financial Guardian Angel comes to his rescue.

    And the clock is ticking for him in terms of eligibility for employment. Too much time out of Law school at a non-legal job does not bode well for him or anybody.

    Unless he can rise very high in the ranks at Radio Shack. But I don't know.

  4. Be’s ye gots any skills? Then gets off ya ass, and start ye own law practice. Find a niche and develop it.

    Diversify. When BK introduced the croissanwich (or however the fuck ya spell it), did I fold? Hell no. We came out with a snacker. When the big burger chains came out wit their little dollar menus and value menus, did I say “Fuck it” and turn tail an’ run? We came out with our own ultimate value menu and added a bunch of sides to our locations.

    When the big pizza joints went all out and brought the price of their pies to new lows, did we duck and hide? Hell, we can compete with Little Caesar’s and their fucking five dollar hot ’n fucking ready pizzas. Shit, we can beat them enny day o’ the week and twice on Sunday.

    We gots plated meals, grilled chickens, Famous Bowls, kids menu, sweet desserts like chocolate cake, an’ more sides than you can shake a stick at. We got sandwiches coming outta our keyster. We even got salads now. Can you believe this shit? In essence, we are all that and a bag of fucking chips (which you can substitute for a side of cole slaw or an extra heavenly, sweet, crispy flaky busciut).

    To repeat, diversify, work your bag off, outwork your competitors, offer better rates for legal services, develop a little ol’ niche, pass out bidniss cards to ya church groups, bingo halls, laundromats, whatever ya gotta do to get ahead and pull ahead in the big rate race.

    Just to addI happen to pay my cashiers more than 7.65 for an hour's work. Nice job,Radio Shack. Hell, you guys was outdated when my ass was around.

    1. are so damn funny..lmao...lmao...but thats the god damn truth! Stop bitching and hit the pavement, network and try and make the best of your education!

  5. I know a law grad that works at an IHOP. He makes more than $7.65/hr. Then again he went to a law school ranked higher than Pace.

  6. Don't forget that Pace plays host to professor Bridget Crawford, one of the worst fem-supremacists out there.

  7. I don't know much about this school but back in the early 90s, I attended a party in Tribeca and at that soiree I met two gals that were 2Ls at Pace. At the time, I was a 3L at a T25 school. When these chicks found out I went to a T25 school, they treated me like a rock star. They were star struck, which I did not understand. Both gals were bisexual. After the party, we went for drinks at the White Horse Tavern. We all rode the white horse in the bathroom, if you know what I mean. Afterwards, these chicks were DTF. Unfortunately, I had no place to take these chicks since I was visiting from out of town and was staying at an ex's studio apartment. I wound up taking these two gals to the Liberty Inn Hotel on the west side and rented a room for $40 (short 3 hour stay rate). These chicks fucked the living daylights out of me. I exchanged numbers with one of the chicks who turns out was engaged to a fellow Pace law student. That is all I have to say about Pace Law. I really don't know much about Pace except a couple of their students went all over the place at the Liberty Inn. I can't imagine that these chicks are practicing law nowadays. I sometimes wonder about them.

  8. All I know is that sanders dude almost made me spray coffee on my computard.

    Sir. Why don't you have bread on your sandwich?

  9. I went to law school many years ago. It seems like so long ago. Back then I had classmates that ended up driving taxis and busing tables in restaurants.

    I myself only spent a few years in law befoe realizing that I did not want to become a wretched old man in this profession, worn down by the long hours. Back then, Biglaw started hiring first year associates at around $85,000 or so. I have never looked back. My marriage has remained intact all these years. This would not have been the case had I continued on this ruinous path. I am sure of this. I say this not to rub salt in anyone's wounds. I mention this because I am grateful I never had to go through the ugly process.

    My health is much improved from my days as a lawyer. I still have some posture problems, but my weight, blood pressure and cholesterol are much improved. My job does not pay as well as I could have possibly made as a lawyer with 20 years experience. But some things are more important and precious than money. My health is one of those things. Being able to see my kids grow up into decent people has been another.

    The reason I post this is because I have a 26 year old nephew who is now looking at law school. He is dead set on going. He scored a 168 and thinks that he can punch his ticket anywhere now. I have tried to let him know about weak job prospects and the mind-numbing minutiae of legal work, but to him I am now the embittered uncle who couldn't make it. (Little does the ingrate know that my loans were negligible compared to his upcoming loans.) Anyway, I stumbled on this site when looking up info on law schools recently. I don't imagine it will do any good, but at least I can direct the kid here. God help these young kids. Continue your work.

  10. This comment has been removed by the author.

  11. Reposted by a law professor. Call me and him a shill, but SO VERY TRUE!!! :

    "Yet you revile those with power over you. You vibrate with resentment that your professors had the power to ignore you. You deserved their attention and regard--after all, you are so much better/Deeper than they!

    You make up sexual fantasies about them when they thwarted your expectations, which brought your ego weaknesses to the fore--and the best you can come up with is calling them women's body parts.

    Hm, your failures and resentments and "disenchantment" (as though life is supposed to be enchanting) couldn't have anything to do with YOU, now, could it?

    Well, it will be interesting to read your blog, and find out what happens when an obviously failed adult fails at the admittedly failed institutions of law school and law. I'm afraid there are all too many such people, blaming the world for their own failures and seething in resentment and anger. Particularly in your generation, which was told by its parents that it farted rainbows and would save the world.

    Maybe you could try trade school. Though I do realize that someone as Deep as you, and as Gifted, and Special, would have a hard time with the humbling experience of fixing what's broken rather than complaining about it and expecting a reward."

  12. Welcome to the age of entitlement folks. Note my sarcasm when I say, ACCEPTANCE TO LAW SCHOOL IS NOW "A TICKET" (see TO A WELL-PAYING CAREER. Well, I guess the profession IS changing from the days of our honorable ancestors with attitudes like Nando and Co.

    Guess what people: YOU STILL HAVE TO WORK HARD AFTER LAW SCHOOL! Imagine that?! You won't get a $200,000 a year salary until you earn it! What? I'm NOT going to be GIVEN a job? I might actually have to get creative and HUNT ONE DOWN!?!?!? You mean I can't press the "start" button on the microwave? L.O.L.

    Just go ahead get me to cry a river about how many lawyers have been "taken advantage of." Oh poor lawyers! Waahh. Even as a lawyer myself, I have no sympathy for you. Go figure it out on your own! You are more educated than 95% of the entire world, so if that doesn't say something about your abilities, then you may be disabled if you can't find your place in life. Nando's attitude is elitist, and if poor people have to figure out life, then so do a bunch of lawyers. No sympathy from me! Make it happen or else enjoy your failures as a lawyer!



  13. I think, on this humble corner of the internet, Chris has set a record for most logical fallacies and poor argumentative techniques per sentence.

  14. "Even as a lawyer myself..."

    Aren't you still a law student, Chris?

  15. Chris:

    You seem passionate about what you are saying, and you seem to mean what you say, but you need to write more clearly.

    To whom was your last message supposed to be addressed?

    Do some editing and try to communicate more clearly. Organize your thoughts and present them in some sort of order.

    You're going to need to do that if you are determined to be a lawyer in this job market.

  16. "Well, I guess the profession IS changing from the days of our honorable ancestors with attitudes like Nando and Co."

    Honorable ancestors? What the fuck are you talking about? It seems to me that you have some strange infatutation with lawyers of a different age. You seem to believe that there was once a golden age in this profession where lawyers were all wise and decent human beings. Please grow up. It would be for your own good.

  17. @6:13AM

    There was a time when the legal profession had a semblance of being noble. That went out the window 40 years ago.

    There was once a time when lawyers had a good quality of life. That went out the window 30 years ago.

    There was once a time when going to law school was a good investment. The costs of attendance were reasonable and the job prospected were decent. That went out the window 20 years ago.

    There was once a time when this profession generally ensured a nice standard of living with good compensation. That is no longer the case.

    Do you see the trend? And yet the Poli sci/English/History majors who can't flip their useless bachelors degrees insist that the trend will be reversed. Yes, in 3 years (by the time they graduate), the profession will be restored to what it was 40 years ago. Yeah, that will happen and I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

  18. @ Chris the Simpleton,

    Look at the glowing comments this toilet university attracts.

    Here, Pace is mentioned in the same category as Cooley, Whittier, Chapman, Suffolk, et al. Yes, it must be a very pre$TTTigiou$ law $chool, huh?!?!

    “Chris” is a law student at Indiana University-Indianapolis. He apparently posted as “Tyson” this past summer, from the Washington, DC area. So, “Chris,” did your daddy set you up with a clerkship in the nation’s capital this summer? Is this why you are able to chide everyone else for “not having what it takes”? Yes, it must be very difficult to get into the 86th-ranked law school in the United States, i.e. IUPUI, and land a nice summer clerkship - when your daddy calls in a favor.

    Nice job of re-posting a comment, on Angel's blog, from a supposed "law professor." (Your mother must be very proud.) That person came across as detached from reality. So, it is possible the guy is a "professor." However, there is a distinct lack of learned, genteel language in the comment. Also, not too many people - other than possibly Chris - have sexual fantasies about "law professors."

    Everybody here knows that your anemic writing and reasoning “skills” are not enough to land employment. To wit:

    “Guess what people: YOU STILL HAVE TO WORK HARD AFTER LAW SCHOOL! Imagine that?! You won't get a $200,000 a year salary until you earn it! What? I'm NOT going to be GIVEN a job? I might actually have to get creative and HUNT ONE DOWN!?!?!? You mean I can't press the "start" button on the microwave? L.O.L.”

    Who would hire such a moron? After months of trolling on this board and other scam-blogs, you have yet to make one credible, fact-based argument on why law school is a good investment, Chris. The floor is yours, Simple Jack. Set aside the straw men, grow a pair of balls, and make a cogent argument.

  19. @ "chris"

    I really don't understand your point. I am currently reeling from 5 months of on and off unemployment. I was older than the average law student when I started, since I was in the military before I went to college. I am a guy who goes out and chases down opportunities. But let me just say for the record, there aren't many out there for newly graduated (or barred) attorneys. Especially if you didn't go to a T25 school. I went to Pace. Oh yes. So I know quite a lot about what this institution has to (doesn't) offer.

    I don't regret getting my legal education. I know I will benefit from it in the long run. But I don't think I will be privy to the opportunities that those who went to higher ranked institutions are given due to their networking and alumni advantages. My family is not highly connected. I have nothing but my balls and my experience.

    Unlike you, I am a grown man with a family. I think you are incredibly naive if you think simply "working" hard and believing in yourself are some kind of magic pills that will change people's situations. Not everyone is a single 25 year old with no responsibilities that can work a 25k a year job. Nor move at the drop of a dime to another city. Shocking to self-centered little twats who like to talk down to us.

    It all comes down to economics of survival Chris. I don't have a daddy to run home too or ask for money if I am in financial trouble.

    Nando is correct: Law school (outside of a t1) right now is a bad economic decision. The benefit to cost ratio is very out of wack.

    There are no jobs for people like me that pay a reasonable salary. People who do not have to worry about being the primary providers can do "clerkships" and "shitwork" for 14 dollars an hr. I do not have that luxury. I have to put food on my table and clothes on my kids backs. So now I am saddled with 150+k of debt and no employment prospects in the area I am trained to work in.

    I won't give up. Like most people I will pursue a non-legal profession. I am getting on the cusp of being to old to be in the military so that is not an option.

    But I resent the attitude and tone of your post. I won't resort to attacking your grammar or the incoherent statements you thoughtlessly toss about. Having no respect for the English language is one thing. You could not fathom the day to day struggles of some of the people out there who have been scammed by these for-profiTTTT school$. I wish you well and hope that some hard earned experience will be your best teacher.

  20. It really makes my blood boil to hear of law student who end up working at IHOP or coffee shops for under $8 bucks an hour. As for the one who is considering the cleaning gig, this crap is just insane.

    If they can afford it and simply want to get a legal education fine, but with the real numbers showing students emerging from law school under a burden of debt without being able to get a real job why the heck do they bother!!

    You don't need a law degree to clean toilets or make decaf and in fact it you may be flipped off in favor of the guy with a GED.
    I say if the law screws U then screw the law. Go do engineering or start a business but research your options seriously before putting yourself in debt.

    My son hears this everyday. Hopefully it's getting through.

  21. Chris doesn't let the facts get in the way of his little opinions. Gain some life exp. and get back to us, child.

  22. I see our friend "Chris" is still obsessed, perhaps to an unhealthy degree, what with this blog and its ever-so-truthful caveats and warnings galore to the kids. These views are not necessarily meant to have people avoid law school, but, rather, to inform as to what will most likely be encountered financially, emotionally, physically and vocationally as a result of the "choice" to attend one of these non-elite, Tiffany-priced fraud academies.

    I suggest sports, Chris, perhaps handball or racquetball, might be better for you. You are nonetheless entertaining in your naive enthusiasm for this very sick profession.

  23. Over the years I have "insulted" many parents and their "gifted" and "special" children by telling them that a law degree will not serve a meaningful purpose in their lives. Many of these people are even related to me. They see me as someone who "made it" in the legal profession. What these fools only see are the homes, cars, clothes, and other badges of material wealth. They somehow think that my getting a law degree somehow bestowed upon me my success. Was I lucky? Sure. Back in the glory days, getting into a T14 was a lot easier than it was today because not everyone and their mother was trying to become a lawyer. Add the "mental disability" nutjobs and scared liberal arts degree holders and you have a tremendous oversupply in the applicant pool department.

    Anyway, the point is that it was a different time when I went to law school. Going to a good school and working hard did get you somewhere. Not anymore. I don't know why people equate money with happiness. I have all the money I will ever need yet I am unhappy. I have the legal profession to thank for my 3 failed marriages. I was a lot happier when I was a broke college student. It was the last time I felt a woman was into me or slept with me because of who I was, not because I was a lawyer or had a decent bankroll.

    Take it from someone who has been in this profession for over 20 years: 1) you may love the law, but it will never love you; 2) you may find the law interesting at first but it is dull and dreadful; 3) whatever wealth you amass from working like a mule will be siphoned into others' pockets (e.g., Sallie Mae, ex-wives, IRS, etc.).

    Today I read about the BC 3L student that wanted a refund. BC is a good school. At one point I believe it was a T25. If kids can't get the message that folks at the T25 or T14 level are struggling, and decide to enroll in a TTT, they deserve absolutely no mercy. The BC 3L student is a fool for turning his back on a teaching career and deciding to "chase it" for a useless JD diploma. Now his wife is pregnant and he decided after 2 1/2 years that law school was probably not a good idea. Fuck him and fuck the kids in law school today. I have warned many from going down this dangerous path and all I got was scornful rebuttal. Well fuck you too for not taking my advice. Don't complain to me or ask me for a job when you can't get one and are counting on the generous uncle to bail you out. You made your bed, now lay there with the bedbugs.

  24. Cheers,


    October 17, 2010 4:52 PM

    Young man, one might also survive a leap from atop a five-storey building. But it is nonetheless a poor choice for most.

    Go to law school. By all means, enjoy. It is just a bad choice for an increasing percentage of attendees. Perhaps you will do okay, I don't know, and I hope you do well.

    What can you not understand about that? It is an absolute social GOOD to have people contemplating law school see the situation from all sides, and the scamblogs help with that. It is, in an economic sense, relatively EFFICIENT to have information, even in a crooked marketplace, about the very costly decisions that one makes.

    Why doth you protest? I don't get it.

    Go to the gym, son.

  25. October 18, 2010 6:34 AM

    A good summation of the situation, yes.

  26. I just want to bring up the idea of seeking non-legal employment if things dont't work out in Law.

    This topic is well worth repeating.

    When I was unemployed in 2000, and tried to land a job with a JD, and without passing the bar I went online to sites like, and Careerbuilder,and any other ones that existed in 2000.

    I registered with Insurance Industry recruiters, and responded to job postings for Allstate, State Farm, Geico, AIG, Blue Cross, Travelers, Risk Reterntion Groups, etc etc etc.

    A lot of times I sent a general "seeking employment" query letter with my resume enclosed.

    I applied for lots and lots of paralegal jobs with no luck, and even registered with a number of legal recruiters in the region and nationwide.

    I went to JOb fairs.

    I went back to my college career office.

    I applied to the IRS. To Universities.
    And the list goes on and on and on.

    I found the names of key exectives at many corporations and wrote directly to them.
    Sometimes a nice dictated letter was sent in response to the guy with the impressive resume with the JD (me) but with "best wishes in your career search."

    I applied to non-legal job postings in the NY times. Postings for non-legal jobs out-of-state.

    To an oil Co. In St. Croix where my brother-in-law worked.

    To Every Hospital in the area for a general "administrative" posion

    To LIPA, (the local Power Company) TO Cablevision. TO Verizon. To luxury car dealerships.

    I used to joke that my resumes fell into a black hole.

    But looking back, I think that the ones that were actually read had a "Black Frame" around them.

    THat black frame being the JD "Taint"

    In the meantime there was NO MONEY coming in.

    So in conclusion if you think a JD will boost your resume or give you an edge in teh non-legal mnarketplace, welcome to Fantasy Island.

    What Mr. O'Rourke and Tattoo are saying as they review the resume is:

    "What the Fuck is wrong with this misfit? Why does he want to work here?"

  27. Yes, the overwhelming stench of the non-elite JD is a potent repellant as to even the lowliest of non-law employers.

    Be advised youngsters.


    "It seems like Hester Prynne would have an easier time finding work right now wearing a scarlet letter A for her act of adultery than an attorney with a juris doctor degree from a low-ranked school on his or her resume."

    For JDs seeking non-legal employment, the reality of the situation is this: prospective employers will be VERY reluctant to hire you. They will view you as: (a) a washout; (b) someone who lacks the social skills to practice law; (c) someone who cannot pass the bar; (d) a flight risk/overqualified; (e) aggressive and pushy; (f) potentially too independent; or (g) a strange soul, for passing up "the big bucks."

    How can a person learned in legal theory, i.e. well-versed in parsed appellate opinions, help Company X sell widgets? The employer needs to sell products or provide services in order to make a profit, and stay in business. They do not want to hire someone that they will need to train extensively. Especially, if they see that person as a "flight risk" who will leave *the moment* a nice legal job opens up - or if the employer thinks that you will be combative and unwilling to accept direction.

    Also, many managers do not like employees who have more education than they have acquired. Some will be okay with this arrangement, but there are tons of bosses who will make it their mission to cause your work experience to be both miserable and difficult. If you are able to land a non-legal job, you report to a non-lawyer. If your superior does not like attorneys, you will make a nice target.

    ANYONE – including esteemed “law professors” – who tells you that a JD is a widely sought-after degree, has proven to be a lying sack of moist, fecal matter. Non-legal employers simply are not too fond of hiring lawyers and JDs. This is certainly the case in fast-paced businesses. In their mind, lawyers deliberate too much before making a decision. Businessmen and salespeople are known for making firm decisions, often quickly. Your ability to analyze a situation may be considered a hindrance, by many such employers.

    If your law degree is from a non-elite school, then this reluctance will be much more ardent. Depending on the employer, a non-law workplace may be willing to take on a JD from Cornell or University of Michigan. Those graduates are still considered intelligent. Plus, they will likely have some connections/clout. If you attend a smoldering, putrid piece of garbage such as the Pace Univer$iTTTy $chool of Law, MANY non-law employers will not even give you a second glance.

  29. Nando, I agree with your comment. However, please don't lump Cornell Law with the U. of Michigan Law in the same sentence. Cornell is not in the same league. Cornell and Georgetown in the same sentence is acceptable, however.

    Kids, the point Nando is trying to make is:

    1) Pilots are not considered for flights groundscrew positions, air traffic controllers or flight attendant posts.

    2) MDs are not considered for RN or orderly positions.

    From my experience, JDs are not suitable for paralegal or legal secretary positions. If you can't get an attorney position within a year of obtaining your JD, there is a 99.99% probability that you will never practice law.

    The closest Mr. Kremen will ever get to being addressed by a court is if he appears as a respondent in a criminal matter or as a party in a civil matter (e.g., divorce). Mr. Kremen can take solace in that Sallie Mae can only garnish 10% of his gross wages for the rest of his life. If he continues at the Shack, he can retire one day and tell Sallie to kiss his ass when he buys the farm. At least his kids won't be on the hook for the balance of the debt.

  30. Nando DSaid:

    "many managers do not like employees who have more education than they have acquired."

    That may be a practical thing, or a basic fact of human nature that someone more educated makes people nervous.

    For that reason I rarely tell people I am painting for that I even went to College.
    I sometimes mention that I took a few classes.

    People only look at me like I have two heads if I tell them I have a JD. And a lot of them don't know the difference between elite or non-elite. Hearing Law degree is enough to make them not want to hire me.

    I have worked in my lifetime for about 5 different Painting Contractors. Never did I mention a College degree, let alone Law in geting hired.

    Well, actually once I did put down College on a job application. I didn't get hired.

    But the story gets better.

    Your fellow workers will pick up on your education and be resentful if not ourright jealous.

    And you will have to take all sorts of shit from the straw-boss or foreman, who barely finished High School as a Juvenile Delinquent.

    A square peg all around.

    So I don't care if people think I am uneducated by now.
    Gotta work. Gotta make money. Gotta eat.

    Mr. Kremen possibly deals with similar issues at his job at Radio Shack. i.e--"What the Hell are you doing here?"

  31. I think the sting will gradually fade as you establish yourself and as so many others become aware of THE LAW SCHOOL SCAM.

    They are doing so. I run into more and more people who are steering their kids away from law.

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  33. 2:45AM gets the shameless plug award. Nando, you should do an expose of 2:45AM's alma mater: San Joaquin School of Law.

  34. 4:38

    That's so funny. I was going to just let the 2:45 plug go.

    I was actually kind of touched when I read it, and felt a warm and fuzzy glow.

  35. Is San Joaquin School of Law even accredited by the ABA? Or is it oneof those state accredited turds floating all over California? I wonder if he paid $300 and they just mailed him a diploma.

  36. nando, please do Wayne State.

  37. Do Massachusetts new turd - U mass law school FKA Southern new england school of law


    Topic: Pace Law School worth it for someone with my goals?

    On Monday, May 31, 2010 at 12:53 pm, TLS user “Think_lax86” submitted this post:

    “I am interested in environmental, specifically energy law and with the Obama administration making all these claims about new investments in sustainable energy initiatives, the country finally smartening up, and the already month long BP oil disaster, I feel that in the next few years lawyers who specialize in this field will be in high demand (at least I hope.) I got into Pace law school with a $14,000 scholy and if I live at home, my after school debt should be around $75-$80,000.

    Like I said, I could care less about BigLaw work which is why Pace caught my attention. I simply would like to be able to pay off my student loans in at MOST 10 years (the IBR program is apparently a good deal for public interest lawyers) and possibly one day be making anywhere between $75-$100,000 working for the EPA or something like that.

    What I am trying to figure out is has the recession completely destroyed this goal, and thus making Pace law school not worth the investment. I just read an article of a guy who graduated from Pace and is working at radio shack making $7.50 and hour. No thank you. He, however, wanted to practice BigLaw, though so I assume there are some subtle differences.”

    The guy goes on to state that he works as a manager for Target, which he thinks will make him stand out as a “leader.” He also took the LSAT three times. It is also sad that this person thinks that there will be plenty of jobs for environmental and energy lawyers – or that he has a shot in hell of making $75K-$100K working for the EPA. Those openings are EXTREMELY COMPETITIVE, and usually go to Ivy grads with strong connections. They see these federal admin law positions as resume-builders. Many figure that if they work in such an agency, then they will be able to enter the revolving door representing Industry in a few years.

    This kid may not care about Biglaw now, but he will when he is trying to pay back his $75K-$80K in additional student loans on a measly $35K salary. Also, this estimate seems VERY optimistic, i.e. low. On the main entry, I noted that one year of tuition at Pace Law costs $39,546. If he manages to hold onto his $14K a year scholarship – no guarantee of that, by the way – he will need to take out about $25K yearly just for tuition. And he will almost certainly need to take out some loans for living expenses – even if he is living at home.

  39. No more night classes at Pace University Law Sewer:

    ”’Phasing out what has become a costly program with steadily declining enrollment will allow the law school to reallocate resources to innovative, new programs designed to preserve flexibility and reduce the expense of a legal education,’ explained Dean Simon. These initiatives include a January admit program, the part-time day program, a continuation of evening courses year-round, and the summer skills semester.

    “The part-time evening program has been a division of the law school since its inception in 1976. While Dean Simon conceded that ‘this is an emotional issue,’ she is confident that ‘the benefits far outweigh any losses.’

    “The fall 2010 incoming class will be the last to enter the evening division. Students will be fully supported and retained until each member graduates over the next four years.”

    The sewer of law cited declining enrollment as the primary reason for closing down its part-time evening program. The word is starting to spread about the shrinking, inhospitable legal industry.

  40. Nando, do you post on that Top Law Schools forum, or do certain people qualify?

    The poor kid sounds like he feels pressure to go into Law, maybe from a girlfriend who has a relative that has a firm or is a judge (I think I read)
    Or maybe he wants to seem important in the girlfriend's and others eyes.

    Silly as that sounds, these things do motivate people.

    The poor, poor stupid, naive young fool.

    His whole life is ahead of him, and he is about to throw it in the trash.

    He can do anything. Anything but law.

  41. everyone can sleep more sound at night knowing this piece of shit will no longer be offering part time night courses.


    But nando, Pace is ranked as one of the 172 best law schools by Princeton Review! Therefor your entire analysis of this school is wrong. I mean, jeezus, look for yerself man. Princeton Review said it.


  44. "nando, please do Wayne State.

    October 19, 2010 11:20 AM "

    YES! Wayne State, MY alma mater, responsible for launching me into the non-legal career in the skilled trades, whence I never looked back.

    Thank you sir. Ah, yes, Wayne State, formerly a tier two, now having slipped, shamefully, into decrepit third tier status. A good example of a true roulette wheel of a school. Essentially, they bought into the notion that if they got a whole bunch of Ivy-League grads as profs, they would rise in the rankings. WRONG.

    Nonetheless, they may escape full toilet status as the price of attending is, I believe, not yet as exorbitant as some of the other crappers described here.

  45. I haven't visited in a little while, but there is something interesting to read there.

    Please read it everyone, and for the naysayers and cynics, please point out what is wrong or untruthful about what Allan Collinge has to say.

  46. Boston College law student asks for money back

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  49. This 49 year old guy guy spent 22 years in jail, has $18.5 million bucks and wants to go to law school. Ok I can understand him not being undeterred by the exorbitant tuition cost but why waste 3 precious years in this lost endeavor?

    Don't be surprised if this guy lands at Pace or Touro.

  50. I obtained my law degree 20+ years ago from a Tier 3 or 4 school. I am sorry to hear so many people expressing so much anger over their decision. I'm sure that times have changed. However, going to lawschool was the best decision I probably made in my life.

    I also had trouble finding employment out of school. So, eventually, I set up my own private legal practice. From the beginning it was a success. Now, I can regularly count on a take home income of over $100,000 every year. The state I live in is not a state with a high cost of living, so my income goes far.

    I am not saying there are not many lawschool graduates right now having trouble finding work. I am certain there are. What I am saying is that law should not uniformly be disparaged as a career. A law degree offers independence, the ability to work for one's self, and the provides analytical skills that are seldom available in pursuing other degrees. It is not a guaranty of employment. I knew that when I entered the program.

    I really had no idea there were so many angry law graduates until I stumbled across this website. Good luck folks in whatever career or occupation you ultimately pursue.

  51. October 27, 2010 9:31 AM:

    Thanks for the nostalgic trip through yesteryear. Glad it worked for you in the good old days. Take care.

  52. Our professors, all of whom are top law professors from top U.S. law schools, typically assign a couple cases for the students to read. Students then read and brief those cases to prepare for class.

    famous law professors

  53. I went to Pace. Now I'm stuck in a low paying job as an attorney with no chance of advancing my career and being treated like shit. Made the mistake of getting married and buying a house. Now I'm up shits creek and still owe 75k in loans. In order to keep my sanity I've come to the conclusion that this profession is surely for a fucktard like me and you are a total fucktard if you go to Pace law after reading all of these comments. Pace Law is a scam folks and I only wish this blog was here 10 years ago.

  54. Law school should be two years long, but I enjoyed my second-tier (public not private) law school experience, in particular the 1L analytical skills development.

    Anyway, you're doing gawd's work here. The job market does suck and imho will not get better, and if you're not the type who can or wants to start up his/her own practice you'll 'never' pay off those loans.

    If you're looking for six-figure employment then get into the financial sector, that's what the U.S. is about from here on out.

  55. I graduated from Pace Law School in 1985. Tuition was a bit over $6,000 - way too much even then for the crappy education I received there. Every day since, I have regretted my decision to go there. I have practiced in three firms, am admitted in three jurisdiction and have my own office, but I am embarassed to say I went there. I ALWAYS advise against going to law school, third tier or top tier. While I have done okay for myself I wish someone had talked me out of going to law school. Besides the work being mind-numbing, the people you call your colleagues are some of the oddest, socially inept, arrogant, status climbing, maladapted individuals you will ever meet and I won't even start talking about those who are contract attorneys. Those people are even worse because the also have serious mental issues as well as all the above-mentioned afflictions. I could go on and on...

  56. "Suffolk University Law School" Boston, MA, another SCAM School that NEVER made it above 3rd Tier. Full of Egotistical Professors, "Advisors" that were to busy w/ their own projects to bother "advising" anyone of anything. I count myself as one of many suckers that got fu#$ed in the early nineties at that joke of a school...these people should be sued for Fraud!

  57. In my opinion, Pace Law School is a model of an Idiocracy. Most of the professors are incompetent and narrow minded. The management is “excellent” in doing nothing. Two of the professors deserve to be noted as exceptional idiots – Professor Jeffrey Miller and Professor Steven Goldberg. Miller is always lost in space and does absolutely nothing, and he seems to be taking mind-altering medications, at least, he behaves like he is on drugs all the time. Goldberg is so boring that can put entire class asleep in about five minutes.

  58. I am not a lawyer, but a programmer. I make good money b/c of my industry and b/c I hustle and I never settle. I push myself b/c I believe that is what makes me stronger. So far I proven myself correct. If you are a lawyer and no one believes in you, you need to believe in yourself and never forget that. Build up your portfolio and get experience. That is what matters! I don't care what industry you are in experience trumps everything so go get it! Eventually, someone will take notice and when they do you will be ready. If all fails then become a programmer. In a couple of years you can make a lot of money, and perhaps you can become passionate about coding. Oh and if you think you need to go to school to learn how to code, you don't. The internet is free with information on how to code. Use it. I have seen people make 150K with just a high school degree. Why? b/c of experience. Anyhow, don't do computer science do software engineering if you must. It is better.
    Finally, if you become passionate about coding then you will realize you can make software and patent it. I believe this is the strength of a law degree. If you learn how to bend around patents and how to make functional specs that don't infringe on other patents you are worth more then gold in my book.

  59. I graduated from this shit hole in 2012 and was told by the career counselor (in my last year no less) that there were no jobs and the Dean (who made 6 figures!!) said "students should just concentrate on passing the BAR Exam." Now I'm working for free in a law office while working full-time in a retail job to pay the $150k back for that shit tier education.

  60. I graduated from Pace. While there I worked very diligently with the Career Center, which BTW is completely insincere when it professes to care about actually assisting students with job search. Upon graduation I had no job prospects but was working part time at the law school. I met with the folks at the Career Center and within a week I had an offer for a full time position where I was currently working part time. When I returned after summer break I was informed that the position had been eliminated but that I could still work part time for peanuts. However, in the interim Pace was able to count me as fully employed upon graduation. This was complete BS. Pace still sends requests for donations regularly. I am still paying student loans- they will never see another penny from me. FYI...I am now employed as a practising attorney but through no help from PAce.


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