Saturday, November 6, 2010

Waste of Space: Wayne State University Law School

[Disclaimer: I generally leave state schools alone. However, some public law schools are so heinous and condemnable, that they have earned a TTR profile. Such is the case with Wayne State. Plus, I just beat the hell out of TTTThoma$ M. Cooley once again.]

Furthermore, several months ago I sent a letter to John Conyer’s office, asking him as chair of the house committee on the judiciary to look into the false and misleading statements and figures from the law school industry. (Before anyone points this out, I deliberately used lower-case letters; the “lawmakers” have NO RESPECT for you plebeians. Why should we have any reverence for these pigs, or their office?!)

Seeing that his committee initiated the Fraud Enforcement and Recovery Act to go after mortgage lenders, one would think that Conyers would want to help defrauded students and graduates. Perhaps, his TTT law degree from Wayne $TTTaTTTe Univer$iTTTy is affecting his vision.

Then again, this third tier graduate had his Driver’s License suspended this past summer – because he paid his renewal fee with a check that was not covered by sufficient funds!!,0,2166529.story

That’s okay. The super-intelligent voters in Detroit re-elected this 81 year-old man to his 24th term in Congress!! Now, we go to the meat and potatoes of this entry.

Tuition: For the 2010-2011 academic year, a full-time, in-state student attending Wayne State University Law School will pay $23,871.50 in tuition and fees, i.e. ($780.80*15) + ($223.75 in fees) per semester. I even called the registrar’s office at this commode to confirm that the ominous-sounding “omnibus credit hour fee” is a single charge of $35.70 per semester. Out-of-state, full time law students at this institution will pay $26,187.50 in tuition and fees for this school year.

Ranking: Look, this school is firmly planted in the third tier of American law schools – according to US News & World Report. Yes, legal employers will be THRILLED to receive your resume, writing sample and cover letter, right?!?!

Employment and Starting Salary Statistics: The bastards do not offer any listing or chart of purported job placement of starting salary figures. But they do offer links to Simplicity - and a Career Service Office blog! Check out this gem of an entry:

“Apparently the recession officially ended earlier this year. Indeed, major bleeding within the legal profession generally has stopped. “Major bleeding,” in this context, means widespread layoffs at large law firms and deep cuts in-house within struggling industries, such as finance and automotive. So, there is a basis for thinking that the job market for attorneys must be turning for the better.”

“The determination that the U.S. recession ended in June 2009, made by a panel of private economists who are the arbiters of business cycles, confirms that the 18-month downturn was the longest recession of the post-World War II era.”

Yes, a blue ribbon panel of out-of-touch economics scholars, i.e. the National Bureau of Economic Research declared that the recession ended in June 2009, so it must be so, right?!?! These pencil-neck corporate tools need to get out of their little office and tell this to the unemployed workers with advanced degrees, or to the legions of unemployed and underemployed people in this nation. Do yourself a favor and look at the impact LPOs are having on American legal positions.

Average Student Indebtedness: According to US News, the average indebtedness of 2009 Wayne $TTTaTTTe Univer$iTTTy Law $chool grads who incurred law school debt was $61,180. Furthermore, NINETY PERCENT of this unfortunate 2009 graduating class incurred law school debt.

Faculty and Administrator Salary Info: According to this document, the average annual salary for a full-time “law professor” – at this third tier commode – was $111,200 for the 2009-2010 school year.

Conclusion: This school is a laughingstock for good reason. It provides a “legal education” for those who would otherwise not attend law school. It puts its students and graduates into significant student loan debt – and then dumps them out into an anemic legal job market. Why should anyone take out $60K-$100K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE student loan debt for a worthless product, i.e. a law degree from Wayne State?!

If this is the best school you can get into - and you ABSOLUTELY MUST be an attorney - then you need to re-take the LSAT. If you do not care about the overwhelming odds that you will practice law, or the debt load, then go out and do what you want. In the end, your choice to attend this piece of trash will not add one dime to my student loan debt.


  1. I bet you are just a fun guy to be with at parties. Wow. You might want to try getting off of the fucking high horse you are on. I know you are bitter. I think you provide a service for those that are disillusioned with the legal complex. Why not copy and paste the same trash for each and every school? All of your posts are essentially the same. I'm guessing you are writing this at the library as you cannot afford the internet at home. Probably have not been laid in some time. I get it man. I really do. Since you are being so hard on Mr. Conyers, you forgot to mention his wife is doing 4 years for whatever crime she admitted to. She is also an attorney. This should provide some fodder for you about whatever institution she attended. Why don't you go to Detroit and explain to the first ten people you meet how you think they are "super-intelligent." At least that way you will get what you deserve. Probably wouldn't last more than a couple of minutes, as I'm guessing complaining is much easier than doing. Guy like you deletes this post within minutes as you don't want to be outed for being a coward. Good luck with your mission. What is your mission exactly? To never work? To never do anything more than complain? You are right on point then.

  2. Outside of Michigan, hardly anyone has ever heard of this commode. By featuring Wayne STTTate on TTR, Nando is actually raising the profile of this school. Somehow I bet this site gets even more hits than Wayne STTTate's website.

    Here is my analysis of this school. Ok so you have an edge over Cooley. That is like saying Susan Boyle is more attractive than a wildebeest. It seems to me that if you are going to succeed as a Wayne STTTate grad, you MUST stay in Michigan. Seeing that Michigan is an impoverished state that resembles the economy of a banana republic (RIP: Motor City, Mo'town, Automobile industry, etc.), why would you want to go to a school that will limit you to practice in a place that is worse than the Warsaw slums? Can you picture setting up a shitlaw practice here:

    Notice the bustling populace in Downtown Detriot? These souls are clamoring for legal representation. This place is a malaria outbreak away from quarantine.

    Again, is being a lawyer that bad justify throwing money and 3 years down the toilet? Let's not even mention the additional 20 years it will take you to pay off the loans to attend this nightmare.

  3. ^Detroit voters are idiots. Get over it, bitch. They have a knack for voting for any black guy with a 'D' behind his name. Qualification and ethics don't even play into the equation. It is one of the most politically corrupt city governments in this fine nation. Remember race-baiter Coleman Young? His handpicked police chief William Hart. WHat about Kwame Kil[patrick?

    See where the former mayor is in federal prison, dumbass. Detroit voters have earned their rep as uneducated stiffs. They keep voting and reelecting trash.

  4. The first commenter has his panties in a bunch over nothing. probably an oversensitve Negro with an inferiority complex is my guess. Listen chap. The city of Detroit is a waste of space. It is filled with freeloaders and criminals. nando, if you don't delete his comment, I would expect you not to erase this one.

  5. @3:41PM

    I suppose by your reasoning, the country is just as fucked seeing that Obama is black like Kilpatrick and he also has a (D) behind his name.

    Your efforts to distract are piss poor. Race baiting doesn't take away from the fact that Wayne STTTate is a wreck of a TTT. Do you really think the people that run Wayne STTTate are completely immune from the corrupt influences surrounding it?

  6. @3:27

    High Horse? How is that? What Nando is doing takes a lot of courage.

    Yes, there is redundancy to all of the posts.

    But that is necessary because the message(s) have to be repeated over and over. That is the only way the information will ever get across.

    Nando is married as far as I know.
    He went to Law School on a scholarship, and now works outside of law.

    You obviously didn't do too much reading on this blog, or you would have known all that.

    I greatly appreciate what Nando is doing because my life is totally not worth living any more because of the impossible and soul-destroying Student Loan situation I am in.

    He is sending out a grave warning to people that are frankly just too young and naive to be gambling with hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    If I can also help, by warning others of the true Horror behind Student Lending, then maybe my life will have counted for something.

    Many of you kids, with your virgin credit, will end up just like me, if you go to any lower tier Law School.

    In exchange for being out of debt, I would gladly give up my law degree and volunteer to work in the dump depicted above for the rest of my life. At least I'd have health Insurance. (which I cannot afford to buy now)

    But FYI, I ripped my diploma up a long time ago.

  7. Speaking of Redundancy:

    I have a hypothetical (question) that I posted on Education Matters today, but I feel it is worth repeating here:

    Suppose a Student Loan with Sallie Mae starts out at 100 thousand, then grows to 300 thousand over 10 years.

    Now, in that time, Sallie Mae has already collected the entire 300 thousand dollar balance from the taxpayer, and has been made whole.

    But at the end of that 10 years, a miracle happens, and the borrower suddenly comes into money--wins the lottery perhaps--and decides to pay off the 300 thousand.

    Won't Sallie Mae in this hypothetical then be collecting twice for the same debt? Once from the taxpayer over a span of 10 years, and then again from the original borrower's lump payment?

    Or is Sallie Mae obligated to not keep the 300 thousand and give that money back to the taxpayer?

  8. This school is a third rate piece of shit. A pile of rat droppings. An embarrassment to higher education. Got a Wayne State law degree? Get the fuck outta here. You will be pouring gas and waiting tables like countless other slaves with white collars of this generation.

  9. At the risk of sounding crude, Wayne Newton has a better chance of getting hired at my firm than a Wayne State grad.

    NYC Hiring Partner

    1. At the risk of sounding intelligent (given my JD from Wayne), I wouldn't want to work for your firm if your statement is any indication on how you look at the world. It's pompous, closed-minded people like you who give lawyers a bad name.

  10. @6:33

    So funny.

    And yes kids, NYC Hiring partner is is in the house, and I'm glad.

    His dire message is worth repeating too.

    The name Wayne Newton reminds me of the Fig Newton.

    But it sounds like NYC doesn't give a Fig about
    Wayne State grads.

    And where's that little ol' Colonel at, by the way?

  11. The Plan:

    1)Take out $70K in loans to attend Wayne State Law School (A 147 LSAT will do).
    2) Graduate 3 years later, hopefully ride this recession--oh my bad we have been out of the recession since June 2009.
    3) Take and pass the Michigan bar.
    4) Set up shop in Detroit and practice commerical and residential real estate law. I could make some serious paper pushing properties on the 8 mile strip and filling out all those commerical vacancies in downtown Detroit with virtual tenants from the Middle East that want an American "presence."
    5) Pay off student loans, become a lawyerman mogul, party with Eminem and set myself up for a federal judgeship.
    6) Wake up from the dream, stare down the long barrel of a gun. Apply a gentle squeeze on the trigger. Endgame.

    Lesson: Kids, don't try this at home or in your life.

  12. Cal Western School of Law, San Diego: VERY EXPENSIVE -- no one will hire a grad unless the grad is a good-lookin' broad who will get on her knees in front of a hiring partner.

    Despite a master's from USC; despite graduating CWSL in two years, making law review and winning several academic awards....despite passing the CA Bar on the first try...NOT ONE OF THESE MISERABLE MOTHERFUCKERS WHO RUN THE LAW FIRMS WOULD GIVE ME A FUCKIN' CHANCE!

    Result: MASSIVE defaulted student loans; two Ch. 7 BKs; and years of doing SHIT-WORK like fuckin' telephone sales.

    I'm 20 years out of that 18th-tier joint and I don't have a fuckin' pot to piss in!

    The MEDIA lies
    The LAW SCHOOLS lie
    The Gov't. lies
    BIG LAW lies...





  13. I don't know Nando.

    There is something about staring into that pile of trash picture that conjures up feelings of real philosophical despair.

    A graveyard has some organization to it, but a trash pile is just that. Truly hopeless.

    The best things used up and cast off by a society and/or civilization, with no better way to manage it other than to hide it. To bury the whole non-biodegradable mess under so many feet and pounds of natural dirt.

    They say that there are caves in the American dessert full of nuclear and other trash.

    Also lots and lots of similar waste at the bottom of the sea.

    And yeah, you can guess who I am.

  14. I watched the following short clip about the Fall and Ruination of Detroit, Michigan:

    Watching this clip made me realize that it takes a self-loathing, self-deprecating low human being to attend a law school located in Detroit, such as Wayne State. The experience must be akin to Nicholas Cage's character in "Leaving Las Vegas." For God sakes kids, you can go to Vegas or abroad and live life to the fullest. Why would you want to go to a place like this to become indebted for life while experiencing the destruction of your soul to pursue a worthless JD.

    Watch the clip and think about how the fall of the automotive industry bears a striking resemblance to the decline of the legal profession.

  15. Wow, it's interesting to read how bitter certain former law students are. What a sack of patsies. Honestly. Building a career can take years. Long, difficult years. Just because you have a JD and you've passed a Bar somewhere doesn't mean you're going to be clapped on the back and handed some fabulous office at the top of the city. You have to start at the bottom, often with people far less educated than you are. You begin building your experience wherever you can. And your education may not pay off immediately. Maybe not for several years. Having a degree felt like having AIDS when I first graduated. But after scraping around at the bottom of the ocean for about seven or eight years, gradually gaining work experience, I started noticing that my reputation was building and my career started gaining momentum. That was when my education began to set me apart from the others around me. Then suddenly one day I was in the right place at the right time and I got a break. It took eight freakin' years. But I left all of my under-educated peers behind. Way behind. In this economy you need to be creative. Your law degree may not appear to do jack squat for you initially. You might have to look for work with an insurance firm or in some other industry and spend time learning how that industry works. It's not until after you've crossed that hurdle that your law degree may become meaningful and separate you from the rest of the rank and file.

    Recent grads, I would tell you to adjust your expectations about having immediate financial success. And never quit. I moonlighted for seven years waiting tables at night to pay my bills and student debt while trying to find a worthwhile career among a string of crappy day jobs. But it can be done if you persevere. I did it.

  16. Duncan, a voice of reason amidst the chaos that is scam-blogging. Thank you.

  17. What another 'just-world theory'? Some people just to want to believe that the world is fundamentally just so when they witness an otherwise inexplicable injustice they will rationalize it by searching for things that the victim might have done to deserve it. This deflects their anxiety, and lets them continue to believe the world is a just place, but often at the expense of blaming victims for things that were not, objectively, their fault.

    I've been around a while and not every graduate was destined to be senior partner. Hell, most wouldn't make non-equity, but there were places for most barred graduates within the system. Today these kids are stepping into a big black hole and every university and college is rushing to create another law school decreasing law graduates opportunities.

  18. Careful with big black hole analogy. Some ultrasensitive black will come on here and pout and have an emotional and psychological breakdown. First anonymous falls this category.

    'Let me translate that long-winded explanation: McNabb is fat and lazy.

    Before the week is over, I fully expect Shanahan to suggest that fried-chicken grease prevented McNabb from properly gripping the football. (where the fuck did this come from?)

    Stop. Quit whining. I’m not accusing Shanahan of bigotry. I’m not playing the race card.

    I’m saying that Shanahan’s attack on McNabb is personal, intended to injure McNabb’s reputation and unwittingly pandering to racial stereotypes. All of us, regardless of color, are capable of resorting to lowest-common-denominator personal attacks when we are controlled by our emotions rather than logic.'

    Redskins coach decided to go with a white backup last week in the last 2 minutes of the game. That is what provoked this bullshit-laden article from Jason Whitlock, a fat lazy sports journalist. He says he is not playing the race card but the article is nothing but race baiting. I love how this moron accuses others whining when he is the one whining and moaning like a bitch.

  19. Duncan - what was tuition when you left? Because most new grads HAVE to have immediate financial success to pay off their loans. And scraping at the bottom of the barrel isn't worth the time when there are 10k other new graduates doing the exact same thing.

    These Horatio Alger stories - "just work 10 years and you'll get to the top!" - are cute, but ultimately miss the point. This is a completely different legal world than it was 15 years ago.

  20. I would be embarrassed to attend any school that was in the same hockey conference as the University of Alabama in Huntsville.

  21. Duncan, you dumb cunt, in the legal world now there is no such thing as starting at the bottom and working your way up.

    The "bottom" is now staff attorney and temporary doc review jobs. These positions have zero chance of promotion because they aren't really legal work. Sure, you need a law degree, but you're not doing the same type of work that junior associates are doing. It's like washing dishes at a restaurant and hoping to be promoted to prep cook. Well, no amount of time spent washing dishes will give you any greater cooking skill than the day you started, so you will never get promoted out of that position.

    Go watch The Paper Chase series from the early eighties. Even then they discussed how an 8 year associateship before making partner was absurd and insulting. Now it's the norm. Except, not really. It's 8 years of toil as an associate, and then you move in to service/income partner ranks (a position that didn't exist 20 years ago), where you may spend another 10-15 years before being promoted to full partner, or you might never get promoted at all.

    Expecting law grads, with $1000-1500 a month in loan payments to spin their gears bussing tables and sweeping up movie theaters for 10 years before finally cracking in to a business that will put them through another 20 years of ladder climbing before they finally get in to the job they want is ridiculous.

    I know it must sound all sorts of elitist to say this, but I didn't go to college and law school to start at the bottom. If I wanted to start at the bottom, I would have gone to work right out of high school and skipped higher education.

  22. Duncan:

    5:59 and j-doggged couldn't have said it better.

    There are only 24 hours in a day.
    If you have over 100 thousand in student loans, you will have to pay maybe 800 bucks or more a month.
    Working all day, and then waiting tables 7 days a week to the limits of human endurance (you will have to sleep sometimes) will not produce enough money to handle the loans.

    Without getting into the few exceptions such as certain kinds of Gov't work or other programs that provide for discharge after x number of years, most of these loans will inevitably increase with every forbearance and/or eventual default.

    Many College grads are drowning in Student debt with doubled or quadrupled loans.
    The law grads are in the very same boat, just with much bigger loans to start with. Go to and read the horror stories. Do some more reading on the topic. Go to Education Matters. You'll see the link on above on the right side. And the other blogs.

    The law schools all have this information by now, and thanks be to God for all of the "Chaotic" scam blogging, wherein the truth is forced to emerge.

    And again, that truth is now staring every Law School Dean and Administrator, and the ABA point blank in the face.

    Yet they still irresponsibly pump out more lawyers every year, and fudge and cobble together their stats with impunity.

    Again, with absolute impunity.

    No one here didn't work hard to get through school, and isn't or wasn't willing to work even harder now.

    Horatio Algiers style "luck and pluck" might be your issue, but it is completely out of touch with reality.

  23. The commenter at 10:57PM trivializes the plight of law grads today. I graduated law school during a time when there was no "third" tier. Back then, there was the top 50 law schools and then you had the others and then you had the correspondence law schools.

    What college graduates don't realize is that the legal profession has been suffering a slow death since the late 80s. But these kids see a movie feature like "Conviction" or "The Firm" and decide to pursue a flaccid goal in pursuing a devalued law degree. The horrible economy is not the reason the legal profession is where it is today. If your law school dean is telling you that happy days are around the corner when the economy improves, he/she is lying though their teeth. The Bureau of Labor Statistics reported another 300 jobs lost in the legal sector last month. And our President has reassured us that the recession ended 17 months ago. Where is the improvement? Where are BigLaw firms announcing the lavish bonuses of yesteryear? Cravath usually announced bonuses promptly on Nov. 1. It is clear they are waiting for another peer firm to drop the bonus gauntlet before responding.

    10:57PM probably graduated law school when it cost 1/3 of what it costs today. I went to law school during a time when your summer associate salary would pay for the year and leave you with spending money. Tuition was in the four figures. Properties were affordable, although the interest rate was in the double digits, unlike today where you see 30 year mortgages at 4%.

    Scrapping for 10 or even 2 years waiting for something to happen is a bad strategy. In this profession, there is a startling statistic. That is, if you don't practice law within your first year out of law school, your chances of ever practicing law is 50%. It drops another 20% every year thereafter. Of course there are exceptions or the so called lucky breaks, which do exist. But catching a lucky break is like winning the lottery. The odds are great and squarely against you.

    In a few weeks, first year law students will be taking final exams. A couple of weeks later 90% of them will realize the crushing fact that they are not in the top 10% of their class. Those students should cut their losses and pursue something else. Of course only a handful will be smart enough to follow that advice and the others will continue that downward spiral path to their life's demise.

    On a final note, I was at a coffee shop on Friday when a group of law students from a NYC area TTT school attend (by the way, only douches wear clothing with their school name and logo emblazoned on their apparel). They were sipping their lattes (which they will be paying at $20 per cup if financed on student loans) debating whether or not Lady Gaga was the greatest entertainer of all time. Sigh, when I went to law school, these kids wouldn't be in law school. Thanks to the proliferation of TTTs, anyone can become a lawyer nowadays.

  24. That's a good point.

    Unless you are well connected or have a guaranteed job after Law School......

    After the first semester, If you have a bunch of C's and maybe a D or two.......

    Drop out. Your professors are sending a clear signal that they don't like your Essays.

    It will never get better. And your future will be totally Fucked by student loans.

    So cut your losses now.It is a big beautiful world out there. Law School is just a scummy snake pit. So climb out of it now.

    God! How I wish I had dropped out back then.

  25. 1. 7:27 Please put on some black socks and yell, "Get off my lawn, damn kids."
    2. Duncan was trying to be positive. I admire that. Not realistic, but admirable.
    3. I am a 1L. My plan, no matter where I end up in my class is to hang a shingle in this small town and have fun. I have a retirement income already, so money is not a pressing issue. I feel lucky. I'm doing this law thing to have fun, and maybe help a few friends. Nothing more.
    4. Law Schools suck. So does the rest of the world. Get over it.

  26. @7:42

    You have retirement income already...............

    What are you doing here?

  27. @7:42

    Hey everybody!

    I've been accused of a crime I didn't commit.

    I hear that there is a Clown Lawyer in town that does it for FUN!

    I think I'll give him or her a call.

    Don't forget to wear your rubber nose at Graduation.

    And they let you into law school....pathetic.

  28. 8:09 I agree. What the hell were they thinking? I was as amazed as you are. I will defend the guy that beats you up though, as I'm sure that happens more often than not. 7:42

    Kidding, of course. If someone has the time to defend someone, and is doing it for is that not better than some ass clown that just wants to make a buck? Does not mean I won't be as good as you are. I just have different motivation.

    Most kids on this board seem to be upset about their own situation. I can understand. You fucked up. You went to Law School at a bad time, and cannot pay your bills. Sucks to be you. Why hate on the rest of society? Your behavior is reminiscent of convict mentality. I see striking similarities.

  29. Oftentimes the reasons are self-evident why a person is a complete loser whose judgment cannot be trusted. For instance, he begins his response to another by calling him a dumb cunt.

  30. @9:25

    Talk about super sensitive. I'll admit the dumb cunt comment is offensive among some lawyers and a genteel and often hypocritical society.

    But that kind of language is only shocking in certain contexts.

    On a blog I think it is fine, provided the recipient of the comment is not a woman.

    Try working in the blue-collar world, and it will become part of your lexicon too, and you will think nothing of it.

    So my point is that I know many, many very hard working people that are successful. They are trades-people, that call people all kinds of names.

    It is just the way people talk in the real world.

    If a mechanic is struggling to thread a bolt, he is told to "put some hair on that hole"

    If a painter wants a raise, the foreman will jokingly ask him for a blow-job first. Then the painter will respond by telling the foreman that his balls were slapping against the chin of the foreman's wife the night before. Or a similar comment. And no offense is taken.

    Should it be?

    It is just the way people talk nowadays, and it is spoken by both winners and losers.

    Come on--you don't enjoy uncut movies like Goodfellas or Casino?

    And to 9:15--

    Point out language somewhere that indicates hatred of the rest of society? It is kind of an odd stretch to compare an indebted law grad that can't find a job to a convict. Really.

  31. Painterguy, you sound like one dumb fucking cunt. Oh, unless you're a woman. Let's be clear about that.

  32. @ 10:49

    Now you're learning how to talk like the real people that actually work for a living!

    Good Show Motherfucker!

    I'll make you a Painter yet!

    At least you will have pride in your work. And if you don't shape up, I'll drag your bare ass across the deck and use it as sandpaper.

    And no offense taken Bitch!

    Now Blow Me!

    Later I'll fuck you in the ass and if you beg hard enough, I'll give you a reach around.
    Then dump my load all over your face.

    Welcome to the working world!

    See you on the job!

    Unless you are a Woman, then I never said it.

    It's a man's world after all, and that is the way that men talk to each other.

    Now act like a man!

  33. @3:27,

    I posted the main entry and this comment from the top floor of my house. (Do your parents know that you are posting comments from their basement, you ignorant dog?!?!) Also, I landed a non-legal job within two months of graduating from Third Tier Drake, moron. Perhaps, you should learn how to read before commenting on blogs. Furthermore, on what other entry have I back-handed gutless John Conyers? Take your emotional, knee-jerk reaction somewhere else, you over-sensitive vagina.

    Duncan, why do you persist in perpetuating the dangerous myth of the "American Dream"? This is nefarious, on your part. It gives people false hope. How many law firms realistically want to hire a JD who has been selling insurance or waiting tables for 7 years, idiot?,1518,726447,00.html

    A German weekly publication calling itself Der Spiegel - maybe you have heard of it - recently asked if the "American Dream" is over.

    "The 2009 college graduates still without a job are in deep trouble as a wave of 2010 grads is on the way. Please consider College Grads Flood U.S. Labor Market With Diminished Prospects.

    Ten months after graduating from Ohio State University with a civil-engineering degree and three internships, Matt Grant finally has a job -- as a banquet waiter at a Clarion Inn near Akron, Ohio.

    “It’s discouraging right now,” said the 24-year-old, who sent out more than 100 applications for engineering positions. “It’s getting closer to the Class of 2010, their graduation date. I’m starting to worry more.”

    This is also the case with law grads. WHY HIRE A 2009 JD WHEN 44,000+ MEMBERS OF THE CLASS OF 2010 ARE HITTING THE MARKET?!

    Lastly, look at the effect that college degree overproduction is having on society and the U.S. economy. MANY of these graduates will never be able to start families or purchase homes due to their large sums of non-dischargeable student debt. Consider these grim realities before churning out your moronic Horatio Alger stories.

  34. If you have one success and out of twenty failures, then is it a success?

    I applaud the fact that after ten years Duncan is finally in the black. But statistically, the fact stands that most of us will quit the law (after banging our heads against a wall) within five years.

    Duncan may say, "Well, you really didn't want it bad enough!" There maybe a gain of truth to that. Most of us fell into this profession after undergrad mess. What does the Bible say about the path to Hell being broad and all downhill. Law Schools offered us PT, FT, Correspondence,and easy admission. There was no required prerequisites and no residency. The easiest professional degree to get. The best cash cow a university could have! But enough!

    The best Nando, myself and others can do is hope that 0Ls look and Law Schools with a skeptical eye. During my senior year, I took Orien to the Legal profession as an undergrad. Each week two Lawyers, Law Profs, and or judges came to talk to us. I never hear ONE mention the legal profession as overpopulated or risky. They never mentioned India, doc review, Shitlaw etc...

    OH! yeah, Detroit. 1970 US's 5th largest city. 2000 US's 9th largest city. Even Ave Maria Law School left. It couldn't make a profit and that is hard for a law school to do. What can you expect from Wayne. It has to work with less and less each year.

  35. Aaaw, are aw the wittle lawyers sad because the big evil law industry lied to them? Sheesh. Did you attend law school because of the school stats? It's an awful job market. You are not entitled to anything. Get. Over. It. A degree doesn't automatically translate into a dream job. Ask any MBA.

  36. As a former Wayne State law student, I agree 100 percent with this post. Way to go. You have made my day.

  37. Only thing extra I would have liked to see is some of the professor salaries. I have a feeling that they are astronomical.

  38. Oh, thanks for clearing that up! In case you haven't noticed by now, the whole purpose of the scamblogs is to warn off naive pre-laws of just that fact. Why doth you protest? I don't get it. Makes no sense.

  39. (12:54 was in reference to 12:37. )

  40. Also former Wayne Law.

    It's a dumpster.

    They need to close this crapper and put the wasted resources into the very fine medical center nearby.

  41. Lemme see.

    Seven years (at least) of post-secondary education at great expense, followed by licensing, followed by YEARS of table-waiting, car-washing and cab-driving, whilst giving up the little things, like, I dunno, marriage, family, living independently of one's parents, etc., ALL for the chance to, maybe, one day, actually break into shitlaw.

    Yup, sounds like a good bet to me.

  42. Why can't the Law Schools and key people, be at least a little bit Responsible, and reply to the questions raised by this and similar Blogs?

    The silence does not speak well at this point.

  43. "But three years after law school, she is completely broke, saddled with almost a quarter-million dollar debt. Schlaud didn't buy a house she could not afford or run up her credit cards. She owes for her education."

    Where did she go to LS?

    "I know I have accomplished a lot, but I wonder if it was all worth it," said Schlaud, 28, who has a law degree from Wayne State University in Detroit, Michigan, and a master's degree in commercial real estate from John Marshall Law School in Chicago, Illinois."

    Sorry to tell you this, but it was not worth it. Not even close.

  44. "You are not entitled to anything."

    No one is asking for a job, you dipshit. I don't know how this can be so hard to understand.

  45. John graduated from the bottom of TTTTT. He waits tables to pay the bills. He also teaches himself the rules of civil procedure, reads deposition and trial transcripts, PACERs briefs and opinions, goes to court to watch trials and reads CLEs on substantive practice areas. He advertises for new cases and then shares legal fees to associate with experienced counsel. He takes on small criminal and PI cases. He represents pimps, hookers, drug dealers, thieves, molesters and other dregs of society in their shitlaw cases. After a while, he takes on bigger PI cases and litigates in the $100,000 range. He is pleased to learn that the rules of civil procedure and practice skills are similar for big cases as for small cases. And what is different, he can learn. John then uses his foundation in tort litigation to learn business litigation. Small businesses (less than $5 million in revenue) won’t use big law firms. John represents small and medium sized businesses. John now gets tort and business verdicts and settlements in the million dollar range. John often litigates against big firms and does well because he has taken the time to learn how to be a good lawyer. Over time, John gets bigger and bigger clients and cases. Twenty years later, John and his partners, are a wealthy and respected civil litigation firm. John makes $300-600,000 a year and does not report to a boss.

    Mike graduates in the same situation as John. But Mike has that toxic combination of snobbery and negativity common to law students. Mike reads scamblogs all day. He doesn’t try to teach himself how to be a good litigator because BigLaw won’t take him so why bother?Everything outside biglaw is “shitlaw”. He doesn’t take PI cases because they are “shitlaw”. Mike finally gets a job but has no enthusiasm for the cases because they are only “shitlaw” and won’t take him anywhere. He doesn’t seem to get that the rules of civil procedures are similar in both shitlaw and biglaw. He also doesn’t get that biglaw associates and partners often take shitlaw cases in order to practice questioning in front of a jury; but when big firms do it, it is called “pro bono”. Mike thinks that because he went to a TTTT he can never be a good lawyer, and he is easily intimidated. Twenty years later, Mike is a washed out and bitter failure.

    Have you ever seen a master litigator in briefing, deposition or trial? A lawyer is not a butler who will impress you with a fine pedigree. A lawyer is a combat athlete who fights in the ring (or octagon). The skill of a lawyer plays a large role in the outcome of a case: and it has little to do with paper credentials.

    On a SOCIETAL LEVEL, Nando is right about law schools being deceptive and the market being saturated.

    On an INDIVIDUAL LEVEL, we Horatio Alger posters are right that you should try to make the most of your careers. The worst thing about law professors, who don’t know a damn thing about anything, is that they teach kids a bad attitude. Many of us like practicing law (most of the time) and make good money doing it.

  46. @ 3:22

    Here we go again with John and Mike. They are phantoms that fly along with the horrible spider crickets and spiders that wake me up at 3 or 4 AM.

    Yet, you don't understand the hopelessness and/or Horror of doubled or tripled or quadrupled Student Loan Debt.

    It can overide the heart, mind and soul.

    Soul destroying and crushing and everyday depressing loser debt is a true inspiration to end all arguments with a bullet to the brain.

    Hanging, or running a hose from the exhaust pioe into the car with the help of a lot of Duct tape.

    Jumping in front of a train.

    Cyanide, or maybe too many sleeping pills.

    Jumping off a huge bridge. (The body simply explodes)

    What is the easiest way to do it by now?

    The idea of 20 more years of debt is too much for the human mind to comprehend without cracking.

    Yet you seem to have the answers. I am grateful more than you know for that. You are my leader now.

    And so, for the love of God, tell me the way out?

    You are so smart and understand all and everything. Please help me!

  47. OOPS: I just realized that I reposted my same post (mike & john)from 2 posts ago. I thought that the blog software didn't take it last time; so I figured I'd repost it later.

  48. JDPainterguy: It's discriminatory to only call me dumb cunts. I don't discriminate by gender. If you're a dumb cunt, you get called a dumb cunt, you dumb cunt.

    Plus "dumb cunt" just sounds funny. Like that part of the anatomy is supposed to be intelligent.

  49. Wayne State Law victim # 42133November 7, 2010 at 4:40 PM

    12:37 is a dumbshit. He sucks moist buffalo dick for breakfast. He enjoys it profusely and considers it the highlight of his day.

    Take it from one who graduated from this shithole(LW' 06): this school is deserving of every ounce of scorn this blog author directs at it. It deserves even more scorn frankly. So to the piece of shit from 12:37 today, go back to sucking elephant dicks and let the adults hammer this thing out. (Don't forget to swallow.)

  50. "Anonymous said...
    OOPS: I just realized that I reposted my same post (mike & john)from 2 posts ago. I thought that the blog software didn't take it last time; so I figured I'd repost it later.

    November 7, 2010 4:02 PM "

    Thanks for the pep talk once again. Unfortunately, those with significant debt and/or mouths to feed will not have the time nor the luxury of slugging it out to self-train for a decade in order to become sufficiently able to practice, let alone be able to keep up the requisite malpractice premiums as one tries to self-teach practice.

    Glad it worked out for you, though. I wasn't as fortunate.

    And, no, I didn't have a "bad attitude"--I worked my ass off.

  51. Mike and John remind me of Goofus and Gallant--the two cartoon characters inthe old Highlights magazines I used to read as a kid in the 1970's.
    The magazine was in every Dr's or Dentist office waiting room.
    It was a magazine for kids.

    Anyway, the Goofus character (Mike) always had a nasty snarling look on his face, and was always screwing up. He was sloppy too.

    Gallant (John) was so goody two-shoes it made you want to vomit. He was sweet and polite, and he cleaned his room. The grown-ups just doted on him to no end. Gallant had such a smug look on his face too.

    I remember wanting to beat the living crap out of Gallant for some reason. He just didn't seem real.


    Schenk’s bio from Wayne $TTTaTTTe University Law Sewer.

    Alan S. Schenk - “I find tax fascinating.” You need to get out more, old hag. It must be nice to be able to ponder on “the role of taxation in society” - in a purely academic sense, of course. He also teaches “a course in value added tax” and a “business planning course.” (At the beginning, he notes that he has taught at the law school for 43 years.)

    At the 2:43 mark:

    “This course is designed to prepare students for the kind of business practice they will be engaging in, upon graduation. Ask practicing lawyers in Michigan, and you will hear how well-prepared Wayne Law students are to begin practice on the day they start work.”

    Sure, they are well-prepared – and actress Lauren Graham is still resting her ankles on my shoulders. And law firms climb over themselves to hire Wayne Law grads, right?!

    Topic: Can Anyone Tell Me About Wayne State University and Wayne State University Law School?

    This poor idiot, going by the handle “MetsNY” could not accept the realistic and honest feedback from other commenters:

    “Alot of negativity, huh?

    Let me guess, you got your JD put can't find work?

    I want to go to law school, something that many people can't say they have accomplished. My grades are good, B/B+ average from a top 50 university. Getting into law school will put me ahead of much of the working population, and I know with that degree, no matter where it is from I could use it effectively.

    Don't put people down about law school, yes graduating from a top 20 law school is great, but a majority of lawyers in this country have not done that. So please don't discourage those who are trying to better their lives.

    I understand the debt that I could face, but in an economy like this, and living in Michigan you most likely understand how bad it is, a college degree means nothing. A law degree however does, whether its from Harvard or if its from Wayne State. To those saying its not, maybe they did something wrong along the way.”

    This moron is in for a rude awakening, when he graduates with $100K in debt - while using his TTT law degree to serve patrons at Zef’s Coney Restaurant.

  53. I read a few of MetsNY's comments.

    Doesn't this kid have any adult guidance? Where are his parents while he is rattling off this nonsensical drivel? While he is talking about throwing his life away with Student Loans?

    The poor simple fool. The poor, poor stupid booby.

    The most naieve statement he made was that the JD will give him an edge somehow in the greater, and not necessarily legal job market.

    How absolutely wrong that is today.

    What was it again the prospective employer thinks about?

    1. Flight Risk
    2. Social Misfit
    3. Overqualified.
    4. WTF are you doing here?

    The poor, poor, simple, stupid rube.

  54. You would think lawyers would be creative enough to find ways to deal with their student loans.

    You will never EVER pay them back if you owe north of 170k. Even if you tried for 20-30 years. So lets just get that straight.

    The ONLY viable option for thinking and intelligent individuals who have the power to learn the system, is to find a way around it.

    No, that does not include bankruptcy. As Nando helpfully reminds us, they are NONDISCHARGEABLE!

    But ff you read the regulations and laws critically, (no pun intended) there are several types of deferment that you can use to buy yourself time.

    One way that is very easy, is to find out how many credits you need for an educational deferment - I believe it is 8-12 - then take an online degree for 3 or 4 years. I took several 6 month sabbaticals last two years time. I am nowhere close to completion yet. I probably have another two years to go of deferment.

    There is economic hardship deferment if you are unemployed or make so little that you no expendable income to speak of. That tacks another 6 months or more of breathing room on.

    The only thing you have to avoid is default. That can be done by paying SOMETHING to them. It can be anything really - $100, $50, $200. They are very understanding as long as you are giving them any payment at all by your due dates. Going into default will ruin you as a lawyer.

    If possible go though the dept of education as your handler. Trying to deal with private collectors can be tricky. Consolidation offered by the US government is a tool that some people find helpful for organizational purposes. Since multiple handlers can be confusing.

    There are other tricks I have used to avoid paying over the past few years and I have excellent credit. Use your brain and figure it out. I refuse to dump my hard earned cash into bloated interest payments. I have no problem paying back the principle, but I take issue with 8% interest rates.

  55. Critick:

    How mnay times have I racked my brains for a creative solution outside of the box.

    I am well north of 170 Grand.

    The way my loans were structured, the interest never stopped accruing during financial hardship deferments or other types of forbearances like unemployment.

    I didn't go back to school.

    The loan was sold a few times--very confusing by the way, and more fees were piled on as a result.

    When I finally exhausted every deferment possible, I defaulted, and now am in a living Hell.

  56. I don't know about you, but why is it that bly1 always seems to resort to the lowest common denominator? I use foul language with the best of them, but this guy (and his blog) are over the top. In fact, I purposely ignore his blog since it's always some profanity-laced tirad, which may not even relate to the legal market. And I agree that student that wear their school logos on their sweatshirts are D-Bags. Same with the rear window of your car. You went to Harvard or NYU, great. Hope it makes you feel better.

  57. @11:07

    Yes but like passing an auto accident, you can't help doing your share of rubbernecking and taking a "peek' at TTR once in a while.

    But Re: School Logos. Remember the old sit-com TV series with Ted Knight? It was called "Too close for Comfort".

    The premise of the show was that the character played by Ted Knight was a cartoonist, and had a popular comic strip called the "Cosmic Cow." (I think he was a take-off on the Doonesbury cartoonist, name of Trudeau? I think)

    Anyway, The Cosmic Cow cartoon was supposed to be very popular among College students all across the country. And they would send him their respective sweatshirts with the University or College Logo emblazoned across the front.

    So in every episode, the cartoonist played by Ted Knight would be wearing a different college sweatshirt.

    It was cute, and I see no problem with school logos. Why? Maybe just because a University represents an ideal, even if the reality falls far short if that ideal in many cases, as seems to be the trend these days.

    But I personally wouldn't wear one, although I did a long time ago.

    I remember an old fellow who had his Brown University logo sewn onto on every Sports jacket. Talk about attitude!
    I would quail under his gaze, which was informed by a snobbery which knew no bounds.

    But like that old guy, who has met his maker a long time ago by now, I guess some people really need some sort of an institution upon which to base their identity and very reason for existence. Some people, on the other hand, don't thrive very well in institutions or in groups.

    By the way, it was said that the old guy I speak of was buried in his old Brown football jersey, and that God was very impressed. So much so that God even asked the old guy to pardon Him.

    Which the old guy did---begrudgingly and with reservation, and with the qualification that he pardoned God in his name only--spoke only for himself-- and not for Brown University.

    To conclude, I do remember seeing a person in Wallmart once wearing a sweatshirt with YALE bodly stamped across the front.

    I was very tempted to ask why Yale was slumming in Wallmart that day, or some kind of similar crack.

    But I bit my tongue.

  58. I do not know why, but that old chestnut keeps getting passed around about the value of a non-elite law degree in the non-legal job market.

    Once again, kids, a toilet-bowl JD is utterly USELESS for those seeking non-law employment absent significant pre-existing business contacts/connections/experiences.

    On some level, while I disagree with it, I at least understand someone who thinks they want to be a lawyer so bad that they will try one of these loos of a law school. But please, please, unconnected/inexperienced ones, please don't think that non-elite JD will do anything for you with civilian (i.e., non-law) employers.

    It will not.

  59. When law grads and attorneys apply for non-law work those employers are immediately thinking 'Is this guy or woman going to be sue-happy?' I can promise you this is what they are thinking! They will want to know if they need to walk on pins and needles for you. What employer wants to go through all this, just to fill a vacancy?

    As law schools produce too many grads, many will out of necessity will need to look elsewhere for work. So spare me the canard, 'anyone can do it if they put their all into it and are willing to work hard.' That is patent nonsense.

  60. can you do a profile on SLU (Saint Louis U. school of law)? i like your articles.

  61. I support the law school scam movement because the spike in tuition for law school (and higher education in general) is border line criminal. However, if any of you ever wonder why people doubt the movement or don't look favorably upon it, statements like this from an above comment (which seems to be common on scam blogs) should explain it:

    "I know it must sound all sorts of elitist to say this, but I didn't go to college and law school to start at the bottom. If I wanted to start at the bottom, I would have gone to work right out of high school and skipped higher education."

    This is why people outside of the legal community think unemployed and underemployed recent law grads are spoiled and elitist. Because most of them are. Just because you're the victim doesn't give you the right to be a jackass.

    I know things are tough out there for young attorneys and I wish I could do more to help. Unfortunately, I work for a government agency and our budget has been cut, so I can't hire a new grad. But when I see statements like the one I quoted, it makes me reluctant to bring in younger attorneys. There is something to be said about starting at the bottom and working your way up. It takes character. Unfortunately, based on reading a lot of scam bloggers, character is a trait that seems to be rare among young attorneys.

  62. This guy will backed up for months on TTT toilets from popular demand alone. Wayne State? What the fuck is that even? I never heard of this piece of shit until this entry.

  63. Cry me a goddamned river! You naive, whiny little fuckers who are complaining about how you can't find a job with a law firm should be grateful. You'll be spared a lot of health problems later. The people who do the hiring in the legal profession can see your runny-nosed, spoiled-momma's-boy-punk-asses coming a mile away. Face reality: you don't have the stomach to become attorneys and you didn't have the brains to recognize it when you were in school. If you did, you wouldn't be writing like crybabies about your damned student debt. Who in the fuck doesn't have to deal with student debt? A few people here have tried to give you pussies some advice on how to make it. Well, fuck their advice. The only advice you really need to hear is this: Quit. Quit now. Give up all hope of a career in the legal profession because you're never going to have one. You cowardly little T-ballers don't have the backbone to make it as attorneys.


  65. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  66. I agree 10:14 pm. If lawyers were being produced in such excess, then rates would not currently be $200/hr, but more reasonable, at $100/hr.

    Now try to find me THAT kind of rate and I, as a middle class person, could hire an attorney for all sorts of matters! (but I cannot now - because they are currently too expensive).

  67. I disagree 10:21 pm. Lawyers are now forced into "selling cupcakes out of trucks" and "starving for work." They are willing to work for whatever it takes.

  68. Tyrone at 10:24 pm, please find me one legal website where an attorney is advertising cut-throat rates with "neon signs" at "$25/hr." I would love to see where it is, because I would be there in a heartbeat....along with the rest of America.

  69. I am looking. I can't so far, but I will get back with you.

  70. I thought I found a website in Denver, Co which advertised rates for $22/hr, but my eyes were blurred and it was actually $220/hr. Sorry. Still looking....

  71. Ralph the Mouth of the SouthNovember 8, 2010 at 10:33 PM

    Nando, please make a new post on a new school. These guys are tainting your message. You need to cover over this "obstructionism."

  72. I disagree "ralph the mouth of the south." This is just constructive dialogue. All opinions should be heard on the matter. Nando is just trying to drum up publicity - and media attention. What an idiot. We should dismiss him.

    Nando neglects what happens "five years down the road" when lawyers actually start building business. They actually do as well as doctors! Sure, it takes a while...but its worth it!!

    P.s. I heard Nando wears pink tights.

  73. "P.s. I heard Nando wears pink tights."

    Don't be stupid. No man would seriously wear tights.

  74. "If lawyers were being produced in such excess, then rates would not currently be $200/hr, but more reasonable, at $100/hr. Now try to find me THAT kind of rate and I, as a middle class person, could hire an attorney for all sorts of matters! (but I cannot now - because they are currently too expensive)."

    Bullshit. If you can't find an attorney willing to work for $100/hr or less, you simply have not made a good faith effort to find one.

  75. @10:14

    You are simply wrong about a few things.

    1. Nando's name is not a big secret. But if you must, then go ahead like a bull in a china closet and say it. Thanks for revealing your tactless character early on.

    2. I wish I had computer or technological skills, because there is a job market for them.
    Nando is lucky in that sense, and so he found a job and is probably one of the few that could jump off the shipwreck that is the legal profession, and into a lifeboat.

    Please go to and read the Student Loan horror storys. Then dismiss each and every one of those people as a crybaby and a whiner.

    Law grads are in the same Student Loan boat as those on Alan Collinges site. Except the law grads carry much bigger debt loads, which can spiral out of control in lass than a decade.

    It sounds like you are limiting your argument to
    Lawyers that start their own firm.

    If so, that takes start-up money, and Malpractice Insurance costs a lot. A lot of new attorneys don't have that kind of $.

    On the other hand, if you are arguing that simply wanting it bad enough will find a law grad a job, then you are simply dead wrong.

    Wanting and getting are two different things.

    Are you really are sof-headed enough to doubt the overwhelming realities of the job market?

    Lastly, go to Education matters. The link is in the upper right of this page.

    Read about the recent post of a bankruptcy attorney who is drowning in debt.

    Leave a comment there and dismiss him as a crybaby too.

    You simply don't know what you are talking about.

    And 10:38--Mando, with an M--you wear pink tights on your head. All day long. But that is understandable, because every clown and joker wears Motley and a Foolscap.

  76. @ 10:14,

    “Who would take advice from a moron who has NEVER PRACTICED LAW A DAY IN HIS LIFE!!!???????


    Hello retard. How are you doing? Your claim is false, as I was a "student attorney" during my last year at Third Tier Drake. I know how to research the state code, file motions, argue those motions, interview witnesses, check out the scene, request evidence, etc. Big whoop. Yesterday, I was looking through the library catalogue online. The middle age man in the computer station next to me was putting the final touches on a draft for his pro se civil suit. Overall, it looked pretty good. Wow, you mean other people are able to produce such documents?!?! What is the world coming to?!

    Also, I have NEVER said that landing a non-legal job with a JD was impossible, you dolt. It is extremely difficult, as such employers are very reluctant to hire “combative troublemakers.” Maybe, you can follow this line of reasoning from a former Biglaw attorney:

    Will Meyerhoffer, NYU Law grad and former Biglaw associate, is now a practicing psychotherapist. In this entry, he writes the following about the “versatility” of a law degree:

    “But there’s a bigger, broader problem with switching careers when you have the letters JD after your name: people hate lawyers.

    Why do they hate lawyers? A bunch of reasons.”

    Such as the pretentious piss-ant/retard who posted at 10:14. Who wants to hire a piece of trash like him? Will his ability to be a brainless twit translate well into the real world, where people produce things - or provide services?!

    It is so sad to see someone exhibiting his multiple personalities on this blog, i.e. comments at 10:14, 10:21, 10:24, 10:27, 10:28, 10:28, 10:31, 10:33, 10:38, and 10:44. Please seek professional psychological help. Make sure to be honest, for once in your life, and tell the doctor about your multiple personality disorder. It should be readily apparent to any such professional that you are totally divorced from reality, as well as mentally unhinged. Also quit projecting, dumbass. If you wear pink tights, I honestly don’t care. I guess law school is not turning out so well for you, after all.

  77. "Bullshit. If you can't find an attorney willing to work for $100/hr or less, you simply have not made a good faith effort to find one. "

    Show me a website please......? [drumroll]

  78. Chris, the Indiana University-Indianapolis law student, weighs in once more - with his asinine, pointless "contributions." Who wants to take advice on the legal job market from someone who is still in law school? This child has CLEARLY shown that he does not understand the fundamentally-changing American economy. He still believes that anyone can go out, work hard and "make it."

    Dumbass is also responsible for those earlier comments from 10:14, 10:21, 10:24, 10:27, 10:28, 10:28, 10:31, 10:33, 10:38, and 10:44 - as well as the one above.

    According to my Google Analytics, he visited this site last night at 9:56 pm. He made 25 actions during his 49 minute and 52 second stay. He signed on again this morning at 6:34 am, and made 4 actions in his 10 minute and 45 second stay.

    Time Visitor Session Referrer

    Nov 9 2010 6:34am 4 actions 10m 45s third tier reality

    Nov 8 2010 9:56pm 25 actions 49m 52s third tier reality

    Nov 6 2010 9:57pm 1 action 10m 20s third tier reality

    Nov 6 2010 7:18pm 1 action 3m 40s

    Nov 6 2010 6:26pm 1 action 10m 20s

    Chris, you need to get a girlfriend. If that is not your style, then go ask out one of your male classmates. Honestly, who wouldn't want to hang out with a "brilliant, mentally sound" person such as yourself?!?!

    This is the IP address that the emotional and mental deficient is using.

    He has also used this IP, as well as a computer lab on the Indiana University-Indiana campus. (When you use the same laptop and you visit my site, it connects all of the IP addresses under one user/visitor.)

  79. "Show me a website please......? [drumroll]"

    Many lawyer ads and websites don't discuss fees, so I don't know what you think you're proving by demanding "show me a website." I have quite a few lawyer friends and acquaintances, and many routinely handle matters for hourly rates south of $100/hr., or for flat fees working out to significantly less than $100/hr. I've worked such cases myself. The other day, I saw a billboard downtown for a lawyer who will do a Chapter 7 bankruptcy for $600. Although I know attorneys charging more, that's not an unusual rate for bankruptcy work in this town.

    If you think that no attorney works for less than $200/hr., my guess is you are still a law student, and have some serious misconceptions about the state of the profession.

  80. "You simply don't know what you are talking about."

    Yep, that's "Chris" in a nutshell.

  81. Hey "Chris". Check out this site, dumbshit.

    For Nov 6, "Attorney closing work in Fall River, Mass.

    Attorney wanted for in home closings in Fall River/S. Shore area. Must be able to print closing packages. Looking for flexibility especially at the end of the month as we are receiving appointments for same day closings. We pay $100.00 per closing."

    For Nov 5, "Solo Practitioner located midtown is seeking recently admitted attorneys to assist with various aspects of civil litigation matters. Some litigation experience preferred. Qualified candidates will be: admitted to the New York bar, interested in learning, and flexible. Pay rate is $20/hour. Please email resume for immediate consideration."

    $20 an hour for an attorney admitted to the New York Bar. The job is in Manhattan of all places, you stupid, smelly cunt. Does this rate meet your critieria?

    Nov 3, "Solo practitioner seeks Part Time Attorney with 3 + yrs (ie: min. 3 yrs exp. full time at litigation law firm(s)). P.I. and Business litigation. Pleadings, discovery, law and motion and trial preparation. Attorney will also assist with other case work such as document retrieval, correspondence, internet research, etc.. Attorney must work quickly and accurately. Please be organized, detailed and have good research/investigative skills. Salary is around $25 per hour. Please forward your resume and any minimum hour requirement. Near downtown LA, Pasadena & Glendale.

    Location: Los Angeles
    Compensation: around $25 per hour"

    These are not lucrative positions. The pay is horrendous just like your smelly cunt Chris.

  82. (Cont.) Take that drumroll you are waiting for and slide it into your cunt. After getting knocked around like a little bitch I;m sure you have plenty o' space to fit it in there.

  83. Hey everyone! Let's take advice from a guy who has never held a law license a day in his lifetime.

    Better yet, choose the best answer:
    Q: Why isn't "Nando" a lawyer?

    a. He couldn't pass Character and Fitness requirements.
    b. He failed out of law school.
    c. He failed the bar exam a lot.
    d. He spends too much time on the computer.
    e. All of the above.

  84. One more to the category:
    f. He doesn't feel like busting his ass for less than what he makes now.

    That is one possibility. That ever cross your mind, ChrisTom?

  85. "Hey everyone! Let's take advice from a guy who has never held a law license a day in his lifetime."

    Better yet, let's listen to "Chris," who hasn't even graduated from law school, and insists that no lawyer works for less than $200/hr. despite all evidence to the contrary.

  86. Anyone ever wonder why Chris/Tom/Tyrone/John/Ralph/Mando/Sarah does not have a girlfriend? It is because he is so obsessed with this blog that he cannot concentrate. It might also have something to do with his advanced stage of ball shrinkage disorder – and being a pencil-neck moron. He also has no social skills, and does not have the balls to ask a woman out on a date. (In his case, he is afraid that the date might actually lead to something further.)

    ”Chris,” why don’t you tell the readers that you spent months posting as “Tyson” – from Gaithersburg, MD and Washington, DC – before suddenly morphing into “Chris” right after the start of the current school year?! Remember when you would claim to be a law student with an important internship in the nation’s (rotten) capital?

    After a brief absence, you came back as “Chris” in Indianapolis. When I exposed you as a law student at 86th-ranked IUPUI, you still maintained that you were an associate at a Biglaw firm in Indianapolis. Shortly after that, you logged onto the IUPUI network and visited this site.

    The readers can see for themselves that the school has attained the illustrious rank of the 86th greatest and most wonderful law school in the land. Yay!

    Time Visitor Session Referrer
    4 actions
    13m 20s third tier reality

    I will answer your juvenile question, idiot. I have a wife, plus bills to pay. I need to put food in the fridge, keep a roof over our heads, and be an adult. I also have the “privilege” of paying back my student loans. (Something you know nothing about.) I do not have the luxury of spending $3000 for an admission ticket to “the club.” Passing the bar will not lead to legal employment. I would rather use that money to pay for necessities.

    I have never sat for the bar, because I do not see the need to waste any more money on this venture. Plus, I have referred to the Bar Examiners as pigs several times. (They might not like that accurate description.) However, if you had the balls to pick me up at the Indianapolis “International” Airport, I would be happy to buy a plane ticket. Then we could discuss the legal job market, in depth.

    In the end, law school is CLEARLY not prestigious – if someone with an IQ of 83, i.e. “Chris,” can be admitted. Stupid, I graduated from Third Tier Drake. By the way, I passed the Professional Responsibility portion of the bar exam - during law school - with a score that would allow me to sit anywhere for the bar. Then again, a trained chimp could do the same thing. It is such a strenuous "profession," after all.

  87. Dear Nando,
    Please please please review this for-profit TTTT. There is a hilarious video that is just begging for you to mock:

    Thank you.

  88. Memo to Chris or Sarah or whatever you call yourself at the moment: dont fuck with nando. He is much smarter than you. He is a washout in this field. But that doesnt reflect on his intelligence. This is coming from someone who doesn't agree witht the sonuvabitch often. But at least he can back up his claims. Good luck in life.


    But Nando, Terry Branstad won another term as Iowa governor. He served previosuly from 1983-1999. He is the longest serving person in that office. And he was elected governor again on Nov. 2. He has a Drake law degree. See? ANyone who puts all their mind, might and energy can accomplish anything with a law degree? Did he make excuses or did he make a difference? See what wonders one can do with a law degree?

  90. Nando,

    great insight to what law school really is. i was thinking about going to law school. thank you for bringing me back to reality! i am looking forward to any new profiles of schools out there. could you do UMKC The University of Missouri – Kansas City, SLU, MU or Regent. so many schools to pick on!

  91. I don't personally know any fellow licensed attorneys who actually advertise their hourly rates, whatever those rates may be.

    To the shills and apologists (there are very few, amittedly): ONCE AGAIN, no one is preventing or telling anyone not to go to law school. That is your projection. The scambloggers are merely pointing out what MAY very likely happen should one attend one of these toilet bowls. That's all. We emphasize that lacking pre-existing valuable experiences/connections, attending a TTT may be hazardous to your financial future absent a solid plan of action. We advise against those who seek to go to law school as some sort of "default" mode to salvage a useless BA. If however you have a burning desire to be an attorney, knock yourself out and go for it.

    Do whatever you want. No one is stopping you, nor wants to. I could simply not care less whether one chooses to go or not to go to law school, at least, beyond my concern that the American public may end up supporting many these folks in the future via public soup kitchens.

    But, by all means, proceed.

  92. @ 11:26 AM


    Damn this blog can be funny too.

    Chris really gets around. I had no idea.

    But Nando is the Tech man, and should know.

  93. 12:17 pm,

    I profiled RegenTTTT Univer$iTTTTy’s sewer of law, back in February.

    I have several other diploma mills to reach. Look for the commodes of law at Detroit Mercy and the Univer$iTTy of Miami to be profiled on this blog, in the next week or so. After that, I will be happy to dropkick UMKC - especially considering that several of my "professors" at Third Tier Drake attended this rathole.

    I will look at St. Louis University and perhaps the University of Missouri. Presumably, you were not referring to Marquette's law school.

    People still want me to go after Wisconsin, Case Western, Rutgers-Camden, Northeastern, Houston, Cincinnati, Santa Clara, among others. I would also like to do an entry on Loyola Law School in Los Angeles – as an homage to “Loyola 2L” of Wall Street Journal Law Blog fame.

  94. @ 11:43

    I don't know if you are joking or not. Sometimes it is hard to tell.

    In the ideal, a Politician is supposed to be a respected figure. Maybe Branstad is all that you say he is (if you are not being sarcastic that is).

    But I live in NY, and know nothing of California constituent wants and needs, and even less of the elected representatives of CA.
    Maybe that is laziness on my part, amounting to political negligence.

    But if you are serious about Mr. Branstad, I would just like to comment that law and politics in the USA can often be like a crazy smash-up derby race on a figure 8 race track.

    Going back in time, Ronald Regan was a real shocker if I recall correctly, as a 14 year old kid. He was non- traditional, and an "Actor". But hardly the bohemian type--- Regan's politics were as Conservative as can be.

    That is why Hannity and Rush love Regan so much.

    But I will ever understand why Regan didn't stay married to Jane Wyman by the way. She was so cute.

    But anyway, and unfortunately, Regan paved the way for others lesser sorts like Arnold, who is an enigma to say the least. And I won't rule Arnold out for a Presidential run in 12. He has the ambition, and the capability.

    Regan also paved the way for other ex actors and ex-wrestlers like Jesse Ventura. But the last time I saw Jesse Ventura on TV, and not too long ago, poor Jesse seemed like he kind of "came a cropper." Pretty nuts in other words.

    But in all fairness, Jesse Ventura was a Navy Seal.

    I don't know.

    But tht is politics in the USA in this day and age.


  95. SLU is a 2nd/3rd tier school that charges more than most 1st tier schools. scary. UMKC, i thought about but after reading some of your blogs about ttt, nah. MU had a huge drop in the rankings, then again most people should not go to law school thinking they will get a dream job working at biglaw. big law has its problems too. your blogs are entertaining. yes MU is Missouri University. sorry about that, most law schools are bad anyway.

  96. UMKFC? Is that the school where Col. Sanders is the dean at?

  97. Nando,
    Wisconsin is like 28th and has in state tuition. Marquette is solid TTT and a private Jesuit law school. It is supposed to be redeemable because it has a "good" sports law program. Even if someone above didn't mean to refer to Marquette, I will: profile Marquette.

    WI is relatively responsible with only TWO (2) law schools, however, we are surrounded by the TTT dumps in the twin cities, Chicago, Michigan and Iowa, which are constantly flushing their turds into WI.

    That being the case, it is fair enough to say that it is a bad idea to attend ANY law school in this economy but for the provisos listed in your blog's intro.

    In any case, love the blog and keep it up. Every law school that delivers students into a nightmare deserves to be called out.

  98. Doesn't Wisconsin allow grads of its law schools to automatic admission to the state bar? I wouldn';t touch Wisconsin-Madison either. It is the premier school in the state and its grads don't have to shell out money to the greedy cocksuckers at Barbri or pay to take the bar. But go ahead and bitch-slap the other paper mills on that list.

  99. UMKC stands for University of Missouri Kansas City. i'm sure Nando can up with something more creative.

  100. @ 1:11 (William)


    You are # 101, and win a free 1 yr. membership to the Jelly of the Month Club.

    It is the Gift that keeps on giving all year long!

    Starting next month, with Rasberry Marmelade.

    And if you send in your donation now, you will win a free chance at a lifetime supply of summer sausage, and other dehydrated and smoked meats.

    Gift wrapped,and with Heartfelt and warm greetings for the Holidays of course.

  101. Chris/Tyrone/Jon/Whatever is almost worth a blog all by himself.


  102. I think places like Wayne served some purpose until about the late 70s. But, since the auto industry went to shit, I bet the university figured that they can take the profits from the law school and use it to cover the sciences (which they are actually pretty okay at) and the enormous medical center.

  103. I blame the continuing culture, from politicians to parents, that merely garnering "education" of any kind, without a road map or serious plan as to how that over-priced product will be used, is the answer to all societal problems. They are still not catching on.

    As to frauds like Wayne State Law and UD Mercy, their fraudulence extends, in my humble opinion, only to their respective law schools. No surprise there. UD Mercy has a fine dental school, while Wayne State Medical School and its relationship to the Detroit Medical Center as its teaching hospital is well-known.

    Nonetheless, the local economy simply will not support FOUR LAW SCHOOLS. That is absurd. As a graduate of Wayne State Law back in the 80's (I was bottom of the class, took three times to pass the bar) I thank goodness I was able to escape into the skilled trades, where I am employed today. Things have of course only gotten worse as to legal employment, where today students from toilet bowls like Wayne Law with much better grades than I are struggling. Back in the day, Wayne was solidly in the second tier of American law schools. Now, it is in the depths of the third tier, as under prior dean Frank Wu, some genuinely truthful placement statistics made their way to USNWR, and the school fell hard as the bogusness of the other schools of course continued unabated.

    In the context of the City of Detroit, actually, the Law School is located in the University Cultural Center and there is quite a bit there, from the Medical Center to the Detroit Institute of Arts, the Detroit Historical Museum, the College for Creative Studies, etc. The Medical Center has been purchased by Vanguard with millions in new investment on the way, while a New York consortium is investing in new residences in this same area.

    So, while Wayne State Law IS definitely a TTT, it enjoys immediate environs on an overall upswing.

  104. @ 8:12


    I really wish I had the means to help Detroit.

    I really hope for Detroit's future, and will always stand ready to help if I can.

    And who knows? This story is not over. Not by a long shot. The Legal Profession, for better or ill, is not the be all and end all to life as we know it by the way.

    Life goes on.

    And I really believe that honest people can overcome anything that life can throw in their way, if they stand together.


  106. To the moron who posted at 5:15 pm,

    Wayne $TTTaTTTe Univer$iTTTy Law $chool is a festering, filthy, corroded, foul piece of excrement. Do you take issue with that, Stupid?! Also, no one here said that they are entitled to a job, idiot.

    However, law school is a significant investment in time, energy and money. A law degree is not a versatile credential, despite what the pigs say. Non-legal employers view JDs with suspicion. If you don't want to accept reality, then go ahead and spend the next three years of your existence "learning" parsed, appellate case law from dry-ass casebooks.

    Look at what Will Meyerhofer, a former Biglaw associate, said about the supposed versatility of a law degree:

    “But there’s a bigger, broader problem with switching careers when you have the letters JD after your name: people hate lawyers.

    Why do they hate lawyers? A bunch of reasons.

    If you are a real person in the outside world, the word “lawyer” means obstruction. The phrase “run it past Legal” means you might as well give up, ’cause it’s never gonna happen. Exciting business ventures ooze to a standstill like a sabre-toothed tiger in the La Brea Tar Pits. Some risk-adverse dweeb in a suit will spout dire warnings to you about unlikely contingencies until nothing seems like it’s any fun anymore.”

    Those are his words, not mine. If you are going to cry like a little bitch, go visit Meyerhofer’s site and emasculate yourself over there.

    Several people have commented on this blog, claiming that their commode’s career development office is useless. For your information, I found my job with NO HELP from Third Tier Drake. This is one more reason why I berate the law school diploma mills for their “placement rates.” The CDOs are concerned with helping out the top students; the others will need to aggressively look for work, on their own. How is that for clarity, mental deficient?! In the last analysis, the only thing YOU are entitled to is a thorough spanking. You just received one. Now, go have a cup of warm milk and take a nap. (Make sure to lay on your stomach.)

  107. This blog is filled with a staggering amount of Boo-Hoo-For-Me. The juvenile attitudes and name-calling are, quite frankly, disappointing. I guess I would have expected more from law students and attorneys. Oh well. It's a long way to the top for everybody, but you can get there faster if you stop climbing and just whine and complain. Blame others. Manifest your envy. That's the path! It's the winners' formula for success.

  108. Yvonnella,

    Were your feelings hurt by my comments about this third tier toilet? Maybe you should take that up with US News & World Report. They are the ones who ranked Wayne $TTTaTTTe in the third tier of U.S. law schools.

    Are you hurt because of the comment I made about the stupid voters in Detroit? Maybe you should not keep re-electing human waste to local and federal office. That must be tough to realize that the city is an urban blight because of the residents. Quit blaming GM for closing up the factories. Stop finding fault with government regulations. Take some personal responsibility.

    By the way, John Conyers had the chance to stop diploma mills and banksters from scamming low-income and minority students. (You would think that as a black man representing a dirt poor area, he would be interested in that sort of thing.) Now that opportunity has passed. I guess that is what happens when you re-elect selfish pigs who do not give a damn about anyone - or anything. The only thing these roaches care about is remaining in office. By the way, how is Monica Conyers doing lately?

    Do you find idiotic Detroit voters disappointing?!?! They have a penchant for re-electing corrupt pigs.

  109. Why would my feelings be hurt? Were your comments intended to insult me personally? I don't live in Michigan and didn't attend Wayne, so I don't have an opinion about the school and I certainly can't say anything about the voters in Detroit. But there are plenty of morons in my state who get re-elected time after time. That's a situation that every state faces.

    The point is, nobody gets anywhere in life by wasting time and energy complaining. I do hear your argument, mind you, about the degree mills, and I think it's a valid point of view. But life is what you make of it. There seems to be a pervasive belief among many of the contributors above that having gone to college and law school - any law school - should automatically entitle them to a permanent place on Easy Street. That's ridiculous.

    I can't help but wonder if maybe it's the fault of their professors in law school. Back when I was a 1L, my contracts professor used to constantly joke with the class about how our clients would be paying us $500 an hour someday "to know this stuff." In my innocent 20s, I didn't really know whether to believe him - although I certainly wanted to. But my common sense reminded me to regard his comments with suspicion - if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. And yes, his remarks were too good to be true. Maybe some attorneys out there make that much money, but I don't. I've never even gotten close. And if any of my fellow students were dumb enough to believe him, then they were setting themselves up for a rude awakening later, even in a good economy.

  110. Yvonnella,

    My comments were not designed to personally insult you. In my experience, those who defend the law school industry are lemmings and "law professors." Look at some of the hostile comments above, directed at me by the shills.

    "There seems to be a pervasive belief among many of the contributors above that having gone to college and law school - any law school - should automatically entitle them to a permanent place on Easy Street. That's ridiculous."

    Going to law school does not entitle anyone to a life on "Easy Street." However, it sure as hell should not consign LEGIONS to a lifetime of debt servitude. (After all, these people are simply trying to improve their situation in life – and taking themselves out of the job market for years, to accomplish that goal.) Sadly, that is the case today. Also, I don't see anyone saying that they are entitled to a six-figure job.

    For instance, I worked my ass off to land a non-legal job within two months of graduating from a third tier law school. The Career Development Office did not do one thing to help me in my job search, i.e. they are worthless. Why should the schools take credit by publishing "job placement" figures - especially when many of those graduates found their own job?

    Also, applying to a non-law job with a JD is a tricky situation. One must be prepared to be interrogated by such employers. They will want to know why someone with a JD or law license is "turning down the big bucks" to work for their company.

    Do you think it is okay for law schools to provide misleading employment and starting salary figures - to entice more lemmings to take the jump?! Again, the market is grossly oversaturated. With outsourcing of legal services, it will get worse for subsequent graduating classes.

    Also, Americans love the Horatio Alger rags-to-riches tales. I remember when “The Pursuit of Happyness” came out. I had no desire to see this trash. However, my wife’s parents kept saying how excellent it was. So we caved in and saw this nonsense. Chris Gardner is a homeless black man who takes an unpaid broker position.

    What I noticed was that DOZENS of stockbrokers were taking this chance – and making the firm a TON of money. Out of all those aggressive and driven young men, one landed a paid position. That is the real story of “success” in this country, i.e. exploiting others’ weaknesses for your own end$.

    Don’t fall for the Horatio Alger myth. Luck has a lot more to do with success than we care to acknowledge.

  111. There are several firms in the City of Detroit and the surrounding metropolitan areas that hire Wayne grads and start them out at over $100K. You just need to actually work hard in law school and get a 3.5 GPA or above. So if you actually care about your future, maybe you should have spent some more time studying in law school and got your GPA to where it needed to be to get hired into a "big firm." Also, a student from Wayne has recently received a coveted fellowship that only 29 others in the country have also received.

    Maybe Wayne is not the choice if you want to work in California or New York.

  112. I'm planning on staying in Michigan. I think I have a good probability of securing an education at a Detroit law school for less than $10,000 total in debt due to familial contributions and scholarships. I'm not ridiculously concerned with landing a position making more than $30,000 (would like to not work a garbage job obviously) and would really like to learn about the law. Would you recommend from personal experience (at a third tier law school, to boot) attending law school or not based on these circumstances? I've been grappling with the idea of going to law school for a while. I'm in my early 20s and if I do it, I have to do it now. Considering your view, I am curious to hear your opinion.

  113. The same 20 failures are posting... its called hard work, maybe try using your undergrad degree for starters(if it is worth anything) .. truth is that law jobs don't pay as much as they used too. Oversaturated markets with shit loads of new grads.. I would bet that most of the people on here had under a 3.0, have u seen anyone post their gpa??? Shit grads = shit job

  114. To the mentally-challenged person who posted on 2-23-11 at 9:32 pm:

    Learn how to form complete sentences, punctuation, capitalization and correct spelling. By the way, learn how to make a cogent argument as to why law school is a wise investment. Hell, you admit that the lawyer job market is oversaturated. I suppose tiny brain = no logic.

    Do you need me to call your day worker, so that he can wipe the drool off your chin - or wipe your ass for you?! I'm sure some fourth tier trash can would be willing to accept you, in its next incoming class.

  115. Would you care speaking to my point? I truly am curious. I would like to hear opinions favoring and opposing law school to better educate myself on the issue and make a good decision. I posted on 1/31/11 at 9:31 A.M. Thanks.

  116. Good luck. Nando won't answer jack, he just wants to cry since his section8 discharge won't let him get licensed. Boo-hoo.

  117. re December 15, 2010 4:13 PM:

    Heartwarming anecdotes are wonderful, son, and thanks for sharing that.

    Nonetheless, it does not, cannot, and will not ever change the cold, hard FACT that, NO MATTER HOW HARD THEY WORK, it is mathematically impossible for 90% of any givn class to be in the top 10% of said class. Do you wish to contest that?

    Law is just plain overcrowded. Ask your own personal physician next checkup time whether he stayed awakie at night about his class rank. He will likely just look at you funny.


    The scambloggers merely point out to inquiring pre-laws that for MOST persons, attending a third-tier toilet like Wayne Law (where I went) is probably not a good investment, in light of both its cost of attending and the opportunity costs of pursuing law instead of other, more in-demand fields.

  118. "Anonymous said...
    Good luck. Nando won't answer jack, he just wants to cry since his section8 discharge won't let him get licensed. Boo-hoo.

    March 16, 2011 2:09 PM"

    What a stupid and tiresome comment.

  119. "Good luck. Nando won't answer jack, he just wants to cry since his section8 discharge won't let him get licensed. Boo-hoo."

    Hello, cockroach. I have never even applied to join the military. I sure make some great arguments - backed up by the facts - for someone you claim is "mentally unfit," don't I? Perhaps you are upset because you are living in section 8 housing?

    The kid who thinks he will stay in Michigan and graduate with only $10,000 in student debt is capable of making up his own mind, on this decision. The point of this blog - as well as the other scam-blogs - is to provide info to prospective law students. More than likely, the person was a flame. By now, it should be OBVIOUS that I am not going to recommend that one attend Wayne $TTTaTTTe. However, the debt load - if it will only amount to $10K - should be taken into account, as well.

  120. Batman owns a lawschool?!??!

    Hellz yeah that's where I'm going!!!!!!

  121. This blog is interesting, makes some good points. As usual, many of the comments to the blog seem to be from people whose mothers never taught them any manners, but oh well, that's what the internet has brought us (i.e. hiding behind anonymous computer text, which of course I am doing right now too ;-)

    Anyway, law school is definitely a mixed bag. I know Wayne grads who got jobs at Dickenson, Dykema, etc. right out of school. They are also the ones who are in the top 10% of their class. Other people get jobs at other various firms. But Wayne is definitely a Michigan and midwest type of school. Your odds of working in New York or whatever are probably slim (but could still happen to a very very small percentage of people, not many though).

    It really depends on the person and their individual circumstances. A lot of law practice and finding a job can have a lot to do with who you know (i.e. family, friends in the profession, etc.) Some people can do great though who didn't know a single lawyer going into law school, even Wayne State grads. Granted, the smarter and more exceptional you are, the better chance you have. Still not a guaranteed thing though.

    So, I would have to agree with the author of this site that law school is in no way a guaranteed 100K+ job-out-of-school venture and you may end up with a ton of debt and a law degree you don't use. Law school should not be the automatic go-to in bad economic times that some people who can't find jobs out of undergrad treat it as.

    Although, I would disagree with the conclusion that Wayne State is worthless or whatever. It definitely provides better options than Cooley or UofD in Michigan and is well-respected in the Michigan legal community (believe it or not, some people actually do want to practice in Michigan - its home and it needs smart people to stay if it has any chance of rebounding in the coming decades).

    Also, its important to remember that all legal jobs don't have to be big firm jobs. Big firms are great for big salaries, but you work too much to enjoy the money most of the time and you get dumped on by lazy partners, etc. That said, the majority of people who graduate from Wayne State will definitely not get jobs at big firms though (which may be unacceptable if you owe the govt $70K, etc.).

    Still, even grads from the worst law schools can still get jobs and judicial appointments and the like if you know the right people and/or are talented in selling yourself etc. For example, Feiger went to a mediocre law school and got mediocre grades and the guys a millionaire, but how many Jeff Feigers are there out there, not many I'd bet.

    Is it worth the debt you will probably incur? Maybe, maybe not, depending on your individual circumstances, talents, and luck/fortune/God's grace.

  122. I graduated from Wayne State's law school over 20 years ago. I came out with very little debt. While I tend to believe the school offers a good education, I cannot see how anyone can justify going into an incredible amount of debt to go there nowadays. I really question whether law school is a wise decision nowadays even if you gain entrance to one of the top-ranked schools.
    With all that being said, I believe the information posted by Nando is important --- people need to know what they are looking at before they leap into law school. I don't believe the law schools are doing a very good job of providing information to the prospective law school student.

  123. Wayne State probably doesn't deserve the scathing treatment it gets here. It is a regional law school--usually the best option for those who wish to practice in Michigan, because so few Michigan grads stay in-state. Look through the rosters of any circuit/district/county court in Michigan, the judges/clerks/attorneys bios will be filled with Wayne State J.D.s. Same goes for almost all Michigan law firms. Yes employment prospects have been terrible out of Wayne State the past couple of years, and perhaps if this 'structural change' argument holds it will never recover. But every single law school in the state would be considered a toilet if Wayne State was one, except maybe U-M (and 90% of U-M grads leave the state).

  124. To the commenter above,

    Wayne State University Law School SHOULD bill itself as a decent regional school. (Would you advise 40 year old housewives to compete with 20 year old college co-eds?!?!) When I mentioned this to your dean, Asswipe Robert Ackerman, the dog nearly had a stroke.

    He apparently feels that it is more important for an " institution of higher education" to follow the dictates of a fifth rate magazine, i.e. U.S. "News" & World Report. The schools are engaging in an educational arms race. This rampant idiocy - engaged in by "highly educated" men and women - helps increase the cost of attendance at U.S. law schools.

    Of course, “law professors” place the blame, for exorbitant law school tuition, on a news magazine! This is beyond embarrassing. In fact, it is pathetic! Check out this piece, from September 13, 2011:

    "Is U.S. News to Blame for High Law School Tuition?

    Yes, according to Yihwan Kim in an article entitled Hidden Culprit Behind Law School Tuition Rates. According to Mr. Kim,

    "A close examination of the news giant's ranking methodology reveals a few questionable criteria. First and foremost, US News weights "expenditures per student" by nearly 10% which makes this vague and ambiguous category five times more important in determining a law school's final ranking than more trivial considerations such as its students' bar passage rate. Essentially, this means that schools are rewarded for decking out their libraries with expensive ergonomic furniture and starting up new capital projects - endeavors that may not necessarily benefit its cash-strapped students."

    He concludes,

    "Since the economy tanked a few years ago, law school rankings play an important role in determining whether students get jobs after they graduate. Therefore, law schools are pressured into spending more every year instead of looking for smart ways to cut its budget and curb rising tuition rates. If we are to see an end to the steadily rising costs of a legal education, US News must address its flawed methodology that encourages irresponsible spending practices at the students' expense."

  125. So Nando, where exactly did you attend law school?

  126. To the poster above:

    Head to the right-hand side of this blog:

    "About Me

    I am a recent graduate of Drake Law School."

    I attended Third Tier Drake, located in the third-rate city of Des Moines, Iowa.

  127. Hey Nando,

    I really appreciate what you're doing with this website (although I think you could be a little more formal with your criticisms). All that aside I have a question:

    I was recently accepted to this school on a 50% scholarship, and being from the area (I would live at home if I went to Wayne), will most likely be graduating with a little over 40k debt. I also have relatives and family friends who are alumni of Wayne and have very successful careers as attorneys. Given this information, do you believe that this would be the safest/wisest course of action? I've been accepted to DePaul and MSU also, which you have criticized for their lack of opportunities following graduation and high cost.

  128. only shitheads would even consider this dung heap.

  129. Wayne State for law is fine, as long as a) you're a student capable of landing in the top five percent of your 1L class; b) you're going to work for your Uncle Bob or have other connection; c) you're a reasonably hot chick, and you won't see much of that at WSU Law, believe me!

    All others beware of this middling heap. Seek a law degree at a better school if at all possible.

  130. I would be the first guy to say that people with liberal arts undergraduate degrees should not go to a tier 2, 3 or 4 law school and go $150,000 in debt. It is absolutely pointless these days.

    However, if someone had an undergraduate business degree, made the mistake of going to law school and found himself unemployable, I would recommend that he take the accounting classes needed to sit for the CPA exam. This is the path I ultimately chose.

    Many CPA firms will hire law school grads for their tax departments. Some states have very liberal policies concerning where the accounting classes can be taken. In some states independent study or extension courses are an option. This combination is also helpful in trust companies.

    I realize that working as a tax guy in a CPA firm is not terribly exciting but it can pay very well.

    Again, I do not recommend going to law school to liberal arts majors. They are just wasting their time. However, a JD with a CPA license can get a guy out of law school debt.


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