Wednesday, December 15, 2010

Fourth Tier Dung Pit: University of Dayton School of Law

By popular demand, the Third Tier Express is returning to Ohio. After all, who wouldn’t want to spend the holidays here?!

Tuition: For the 2010-2011 school year, a full-time student at the University of Dayton School of Law will be charged $33,330 in tuition, plus $206 in university fees.

Total Cost of Attendance: According to this same page, the school estimates that books and supplies; health and counseling center fees; and personal costs will add another $15,644 to the tab. This would bring the total COA for the academic year to $49,180. However, seeing that actual law students – as opposed to hypothetical ones – require expenses over 12 months, and not 9 months, we can determine that personal costs would amount to $18,667. Thus, the actual total COA - over 12 months – would be $53,847.

Ranking: Okay, so the school is located in muggy, cold Dayton, Ohio. Tuition is a little steep, especially for residents of that economic dead zone known as Ohio. Surely, the school’s stellar national reputation will make this a wise investment, right?!?! Well, some publication calling itself US News & World Report finds lists this school in the fourth tier of American law schools.

Employment Prospects: Since the law school is not willing to provide employment stats, we go to an outside source. LSAT Prep Course purports to show that 91.5% of Dayton JDs were “known to be employed nine months after graduation.” It does not specify which graduating class this pertains to. This site also states that the average indebtedness of 2008 graduates who incurred law school debt was $81,770 – which is $10,245 more than the amount listed for Class of 2009, when tuition was higher.

Average Student Indebtedness: US News reports that the average student indebtedness for 2009 University of Dayton law grads who incurred law school debt at $71,525. Also, 91 percent of this trash pit’s 2009 graduating class took on law school debt.

Faculty and Administrator Pay: Go to page 35 of the University of Dayton’s 2009 IRS Form 990. As you can see, dean and “professor of law” John Travolta, a.k.a. Lisa A. Kloppenberg, made $306,746 in TOTAL COMPENSATION – for 2008. Also, “associate dean for academic affairs and professor of law” Richard Perla made $258,503 in TOTAL COMPENSATION – for the same year.

Entering Student GPA and LSAT scores: According to this site, the 75th percentile of entering students, for the Dayton Law Class of 2009, scored a 155 on the LSAT. Those in the 25th percentile had a score of 150. Those in the 75th percentile had a UGPA of 3.49, whereas those in the 25th percentile earned a 2.89 GPA during undergrad. If you have similar numbers, you may end up at a toxic dump such as this one.

“Our mission as a law school reflects our character and purpose, derives from our traditions, and inspires our aspirations. Our mission and our vision have important implications for how law is taught here - and how you can expect to be treated as a student.”

“The University of Dayton law school is partnering with Central State University in an effort to grow the diversity of its program.”

Hey, at least the commode is working with other Ohio toilets to promote diversity. Because minorities will be helped by having an extra $60K-$100K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt, right?!?! Just look at the graphs on the bottom of the page.

Here is the commode’s viewbook. Look at the following nuggets of “wisdom”: “long hours in the law library have ways of bringing out the best in people” on page 6; “where you can advocate social justice – and have a social life” at page 17; and “believe it or not, the world definitely needs more lawyers” on page 3. I wonder why the $chool would $ay $uch thing$.

Conclusion: This is another overpriced Catholic commode. The school bills itself as an institution that cares about public service. Yet, this religious school does not see anything morally wrong with charging students $33,330 a year in tuition. If this is the best school you can get into – and you absolutely MUST be a lawyer – I suggest you re-take the LSAT. It is not worth taking out $75K-$120K in additional student loans, so that you can have a realistic chance of making $30K-$45K a year, upon graduation.


  1. Does the world really need more ambulance chasing TTTT lawyers?

  2. I'm glad you decided to return to Ohio, Nando. I asked about Ohio schools last week and I am happy to say your blog stopped a friend of mine from making a terrible decision. He was going to attend Dayton at full price and with the help of your blog and other resources I talked him out of it. He did little research before applying (most don't) and was going to attend this toilet because it is an "investment" for latter on. As with most students he did not understand the ramifications of mortgage-sized student loans. Probably end up getting loan statements and AARP information in the mail at the same time because you will be in your FIFTIES and still paying off law schools loans.

    Your are slaying these toilets with great vigor but it is like they are locusts who instead of devouring crops devour students futures by playing off of the more education equals more money bullshit when it clearly doesn't in many, many cases. I went to an Ohio law school for 1 year, saw the writing on the wall, and got the hell out. I paid off my loans which were under 10k quickly and never looked back.

    Be ready for a long stay in freezing Ohio: Capital, Ohio Northern, Case Western, and Dayton are the overpriced privates and we have some rather expensive state schools like TTToledo that you profiled. Keep up the good work!

  3. Professor Owen Moore here with today's assignment. Law students or 0L lemmings, please read and be prepared to discuss the following case on discharging student loans in bankruptcy:

    I want you kids to focus on the 3rd Circuit's language, to wit:

    "In other words, when a student loan borrower accepts money from the government, she strikes a bargain.   And “[l]ike all bargains, it entails risk.   It is for each student individually to decide whether the risks of future hardship outweigh the potential benefits of a deferred-payment education.”   Brunner, 46 B.R. at 756.   Here, Brightful struck her bargain, she took her risk, and unfortunately, things did not work out as planned.   Brightful's hardship is real, but under the Faish test, it is not “undue,” and therefore we cannot discharge her obligation to repay her student loans."

    Ok, in light of the Brightful case, here is the law exam question of the day.

    Which of the following must you wear for the rest of your life in order to be granted a discharge of your student loans in bankruptcy:





    I kept the question simple (i.e., use of images) for the TTT minds.

  4. Ohio has too many toilets. If I'm not mistaken, the highest ranked law school in the state is OSU.

  5. I know a guy who made partner at my old firm from this school. Nice guy, but I suspect he's the exception to the rule. Ohio has too many law schools. Shut 'em down.

  6. Eh, question. What did that pile of shit in the picture do to deserve being compared to Dayton School of Law?

  7. The Colonel is here t’ weigh in on th’ subject. I’s been busy snackin’ on some good ol’ popcorn chicken. Damn, these things taste finga lickin’ gooooood! I say I say they be finga lickin' good, like a sumbitch born on da fourth o' july, mothafucka. Can ya dig it? Take ya baby’s mama out and treat her n yaself t' a family bucket a chicken. Ya can mix ‘n match ‘n shit. Grab some sides too. Ya hear me?

    Ennyway, bite into one o’ The Colonel’s chocolate cakes. Then take ya girlfrien’ in da back a ya 1976 Chevy Deluxe C-10 truck and eat her out. Leave da Stars 'n Bars a' home, unless she's inta dat type a thing. hen get back to mah ass and lemme know which tastes betta.

    Don’ forget to bring ya ass in and try some of these Bite-sized pieces of all-white meat chicken, marinated for a tender inside and breaded for a flavorful, fun crunch on the outside. I’s likes to call ‘em The Colonel’s bite-sized pieces o’ Heavenly bliss.

    I thought I hads a point t’ this comment. Oh yes here it be. I’s gots mo’ than a dozen restaurants (they eye-talians call ‘em ristorantes, but ya’lls get da point, dontcha) in the Dayton area. I’d be happy to hire any Dayton Law Grad that can man the deep fryers, talk into da li’l headset, and manage to time the biscuits jus’ right. (Don’ forget to pull ‘em out, TTTT degreeholder. Ya hears meh? Shit, I’ll even pay more than those free internalships that da law firms be offerin’ ‘round here.

  8. I was in court earlier today and talked to a colleague who was accompanied by a younger person. The younger person was carrying my colleague's briefcase. I inquired if he had hired a new associate and his reply was: "No, in fact, this noob is paying me to show him the ropes while he does billable work for me." I thought unpaid internships were bad but now recent law grads have to pay seasoned lawyers to be their lackeys since law school does not prepare you for the actual practice of law. BTW, my colleague says the younger attorney was paying him $1,500 a month for "mentoring" and "consulting" fees.

  9. If I recall it correctly (and it's a good chance I can't because I've since gone through law school and had my brain scrubbed and replaced with mush from a gilbert's outline), I applied to the U of D, but had something key missing from my application (like a personal statement or character and fitness thing). They sent me a letter asking for it; I never did it, and the next letter I got offered me a substantial scholarship.

    @9:15 - holy hell, some lawyer makes $1500 a month just by giving a flunkie the privilege of being his flunkie? Wow - now I've got a career path. Instead of actually working as a lawyer and taking money from clients, I'll hire on an "assistant" and make a cool $18k for doing squat.

    Think we could set up a firm whose sole business purpose is teaching recent law grads how to practice law (even if some of us have never done it ourselves)??? Sounds almost as profitable as schools like Dayton!

  10. Noobs are paying practicing lawyers $1500/mo so they can hold their bags. Why am I not surprised.

  11. Nando, make sure you call Capital University "Crapital" and Ohio Northern "Oh, No" in your TTR reviews, since those are pretty common nicknames for both schools.


    “Lisa Kloppenberg, who has served two (sic) for nine years as dean of the University of Dayton Law School will step down in the summer of 2011. Her advance planning leaves plenty of time for the law school to do a complete search process - proof, in itself, of good management.”

    Too bad the toilet does not do a good job of managing the number of students it takes in - such as seeing that the number of grads does not greatly exceed the available number of attorney jobs.

    “Paul McGreal, the Univerity of Dayton’s new law dean, plans to advance the school’s already innovative program. Here is an excerpt from an article in the National Law Journal:

    "What excites me is working on creating institutional incentives and policies that support people doing good work," McGreal said. "This is a law school that's been entrepreneurial in looking at curriculum and the recruitment of students."

    Yes, we all know that recruitment is the key. The schools are AWARE that they are pumping out too many JDs - but they still intend to put as many asses in seats as they can. “We’ll take their (borrowed) money, and lecture them. We’ll let the market sort them out.”

    This poor bastard - going by the handle of “GeniusWords” - will attend the University of Dayton Sewer of Law in 2011. On the second page of this thread, he states that he earned a BA in Writing and a BA in Political Science at something called the University of Central Arkansas.

    If anyone is interested, here is a lame-ass video of the Univer$iTTTY of DayTTTTon $chool of Law. It was created by Youtube user “mormonlawyers.” I’m pretty certain that Colby Nolan, the MBA feline, could have made a better video.

  13. I bet the kid paying a seasoned lawyer $1.5k will make a million dollars before the rest of you do. (No that's not a lot of money. Frankly, I think many scamblog commenters will never have a networth north of $1 M). It takes initiative to pay a lawyer to teach you the ropes. When the economy rebounds, the kid will know a few things. Keeping your eyes open and taking initiative are the key.

    @10:22 am: If thought about starting a blog that actually teaches how to practice law. But it took years to learn all of the secrets, am I going to give them away for free?


  14. All I can say is...thank GOODNESS real professions, like medicine, don't work like that. This is only taking place due to the severe oversupply of law licensees, not because anyone has such unbelievable talents. It's just the fact law school doesn't teach squat. See any neurosurgeons doing this? Are their talents therefore not of great value?

  15. @5:08:

    "I bet the kid paying a seasoned lawyer $1.5k will make a million dollars before the rest of you do....It takes initiative to pay a lawyer to teach you the ropes. When the economy rebounds, the kid will know a few things."

    I'll take your bet.

  16. The kid paying $1.5k per month is getting more bang for his buck than if he was paying for $50k for the LLM program in practical skills at UCLA or DayTTTTon. For $18k this kid is learning more than the he did paying $150k for a worthless JD from this putrid wasteland of a law school.

  17. Maybe, or maybe this kid just discovered a new way to get screwed over.

  18. Suppose the government decided to guarantee and/or subsidize all civil lawsuits in the same way they do student loans?

    That way, if a successful plaintiff couldn't collect, the federal government would pay the tab.

    How would that affect the tort industry?

    And while they are at it, why not subsidize all credit card debt?

    Se what I'm getting at?

  19. The kid paying the lawyer ~$1500.00 a month is paying this amount plus whatever he took out for law school. He could perhaps find a job that pays him.

  20. Re: the kid paying $1500 a month:

    Am I the only one shocked to hear that story?

    What a pitiful disgrace the industry has become.

    To borrow a line from John Steinbeck: It's a sin that is worse than sinning.

    Its like, what the hell was Law School supposed to teach him?

  21. Nando, great job as always. who is next on your hitlist? i nominate SLU and UMKC. Missouri has at least two too many law schools.

  22. “I bet the kid paying a seasoned lawyer $1.5k will make a million dollars before the rest of you do. (No that's not a lot of money. Frankly, I think many scamblog commenters will never have a networth north of $1 M). It takes initiative to pay a lawyer to teach you the ropes. When the economy rebounds, the kid will know a few things. Keeping your eyes open and taking initiative are the key.”

    Spoken like a true dumbass. This child is PAYING a lawyer so that he can make money for the practicing attorney – and carry his briefcase.

    If this story is true, then the fool is actually accumulating MORE debt, i.e. he is presumably spending more money than he is taking in. How is that being responsible? This moron is paying the attorney – so he can “learn the ropes” – and watching helplessly as interest ACCRUES on his deferred student loans. I suppose the ignorant blowhard at 5:08 pm thinks this is “economically sound.”

    This is an embarrassment, but vividly illustrates the state of the American legal job market. The kid is so desperate that he is paying another person so that he can line that guy’s pockets. And the attorney is more than happy to take advantage of the unemployed lawyer or law student.

    This is a difference in degree from the Duke “Bridge to Practice” and SMU Dedman Sewer of Law “Test Drive” programs. While those schools are paying money to firms so that their otherwise unemployed JDs can work in the legal field, the schools are spending money that originated from tuition, which came largely from federally-backed loans.

    However, this takes the cake when it comes to audacity. The kid is probably strapped to his ass in student loan debt – and the attorney is accepting $1,500 from this person.

    Going back to the legal market in Ohio, this site shows that there are 9 law schools in the state. Could these nine schools possibly be producing too many JDs – for the number of available attorney job openings?!?!

    Out of the schools on this list, Ohio State is ranked highest at number 34. Case Western Reserve and University of Cincinnati are tied – at 56th greatest, most astounding law school in the land. Cleveland State, Ohio Northern, Univer$iTTTy of Akron, and University of Toledo are all in the THIRD TIER. Capital University and Dayton are sweltering in the FOURTH TIER. Out of the nine law schools, only ONE is ranked in the top 50 schools.

  23. Let's face it. All the third and fourth tier schools are just a bunch of gypsy outfits.

    And the people running and teaching in them are just a bunch of gypsies as well.

    Fucking lying, bullshitting scammers.........all of them.

    And the lawyer accepting $1500 a month for doing a job that the law schools failed to do is a disgrace as well.

    How do all these people sleep at night?

  24. I am going to go ahead and defend the lawyer that is charging the kid $1.5k a month. He is teaching the kid skills besides how to haul a litigation bag through snow so as to not lose time and get to court on time. The seasoned lawyer is capitalizing on the law school's failure to teach practical skills. Knowing the rule against perpetuities will not help out an attorney doing a real estate transaction.

  25. @12:36

    If the bleedin lawyer really wants to help the kid, he should bloody well do it for free.

  26. 12:57

    Why should the seasoned lawyer share his trade secrets gratis? Please don't cite professional courtesy or the duty to mentor.

  27. All merely symptoms of a sick, diseased and grossly overcrowded "profession". There you have it, folks: If it's POSSIBLE to do something, go ahead and do it. In this case, exploit the kids.

    That's why law is not truly a profession. There ARE no identifiable standards. You have, ostensibly, "practitioners" saying 'Fuck standards'. 'Fuck whether the schools are putting out practitioners capable of doing the job at at least a minimal level.' I'll just join in the fun and add to the damage the worthless schools have aleady done, namely, drive some kid further towards financial demise. That's right, just try and make as much money off the kids as possible. I will pass.

    No thanks. Glad to be in another field, rather than to work with that crap.

  28. I actually think that the payment for mentoring concept might be a good thing (depending on the practice area). Obviously, I wouldn't pay some old dog $1,500 per month to have him tell me the secrets of traffic court, but for some arcane area (like patent, tax) and with no job prospects in sight, it might actually be a good idea for a limited period of time. I just might look into that myself once I get my law firm started up ... again.

  29. I suppose the lawyer is teaching the kid how to further get fucked. What a public service he is performing. The schmuck should have the decency to teach this guy the trade for free. Shit, it;s not costing the bastard anything.

  30. I agree with the posters in support of the attorney. The 'kid' has made his choice. What's the harm? No one forced him to enter the arrangement. It's a lot better than law school, because he'll actually learn how to practice law. This is how it was done in the old days before law school.


  31. Four years ago I made over $100k a year owning my own solo shitlaw criminal defense firm. It paid the bills but was not a path to really getting rich. I wanted to learn complex federal litigation.
    I found a guy who left a partnership (probably was forced out of) a very elite boutique firm and was starting over on his own. I contacted him and offered to help him on litigation for a very small percentage of the contingency fee. (I was willing to do it for free) He was hesitant. I was about to propose my dropping $5-10k cash to buy in to the litigation, but he contacted me and accepted my offer before I proposed this.
    I didn't make much money but I got to write briefs, do discovery, take and defend expert depositions, draft FRCP 26 expert reports, etc. I learned everything and today have a number of lucrative cases in the pipeline.
    How to really practice law is a bunch of secrets.
    BTW, I wouldn't share my trade secrets for $1.5k.

  32. December 18, 2010 7:49 AM

    I am all for eliminating the law school part, but to get, essentially, fucked twice in order to learn this sordid trade is going to the well too often. Having to pay for your own real-world apprenticeship AND a useless three years of law school, combined, is what makes this arrangement wrong in my opinion.

    The "profession" (which I don't believe it is, as it has no real competency standards)should decide on one form of preparation or the other, if this is to be the ne paradigm you guys are all so crazy about.

  33. Regardless of whether the lawyer is a rat fink or not for charging the kid $1.5K per month, the law school featured on this article is in fact a piece of shit.

    Dayton Law School? Outside of the state, who has even heard of this shithole? I wouldn't hire a Dayton JD to make waffles.

  34. Charles Dickens had a number of novels that were referred to as the "Dark Novels"

    All of the imagery was dark--especially in relation to contemporary descriptions of the Legal Profession in England.

    As in dark and dingy sections of the city, with damp cobblestones and shadowed alleyways, with people in poverty and despair, freezing from the cold and wrapped in damp shawls.

    Dickens always portrayed the legal profession in this way.

    And so, Great Going America. History repeats itself.

    May God Damn the soul to eternal Hell of the piece of shit life charging 1500 a twelth.

    May he never draw a breath, without it drawing more from his health.

    May he never more walk the earth, with a clear conscience, and a day of mirth.

    May God help us all in these very dark and dismal days.

  35. I wouldn't hire a Dayton JD to make waffles.

    December 18, 2010 12:21 PM

    mmmmmmm, waffles.

  36. So now Dayton-trained lawyers are incapable of making waffles? The school is a cess pool. But c'mon. You put the batter in a fucking waffle iron. Who could screw that up?

  37. I love how this cesspool charges by the hour rather than the academic year:

    The University of Dayton School of Law charges tuition per credit hour rather than per academic year. The cost per credit hour for the 2010-11 academic year is $1010.

    Billable hours! They get you 'thinking like a lawyer' on the very first day! $1010 an hour--damn--I don't think even the most blue-blooded BigLaw firm in the country believes it could get away with charging that...


  38. Based on this blog in general. it seems like nando went to law school thinking he was some kind of genius. It turns out everyone in law school, no matter which one, is smarter thean the average undergrad. This would mean theat nando's inability to find a job was based more on his poor performance than the uselessness of law school. Although I will say that practice is nothing like school, but the same goes for medicine, I mean why perform surgery on a cadaver... it's to lean how to do it properly. Godd job crying about how the world isn't fair, maybe daddy's money doesn't stretch into your thirties like you thought, but I have to thank you because your pessimistic douchebaggery made me want to attend law chool even more.

  39. I graduated from Dayton Law in 2009 (wanted to stay close to home). I'm a Cornell alum with poor grades because of health problems and bad major choices, but a 165 LSAT on the first attempt no studying. I was in the top 10% of my class without trying at UD. I got a job before taking the bar with a starting salary of $90,000 including bonuses. Now, my salary including bonuses is about $125,000. I work about 53 hours per week, but I warn people: I am an incredibly efficient biller and there are no quotas where I work. I will have my debt paid off in a year because I am living in a nice, calm room at my home (no rent hah!). Thanks Mom! Looking at moving out to Seattle area after five years experience. Know some lawyers with some connections there. Better pay, better living. Yeah, it's hard coming out of a school like UD. But the teaching isn't poor. I've been at Ivy League schools. And I know many students who although started out with somewhat modest salaries have been working their way up and they were not in the top 10%. It seems the lower tier law students get killed at first but gain in salary after five years. Just my two cents.

  40. To the cretin who commented on August 18, 2011 at 11:43 am,

    Learn some basic sentence structure and grammar, bitch. Many of those who landed in the top ten spots in my class - not percent - ended up practicing in insurance defense mills, making around $43K per year. What does that tell you about the caliber of Third Tier Drake, cockroach?!?!

    At least, I had a full-tuition scholarship for three years, ball-licker. By the way, pussy, I have lived on my own since age 18. My father worked hard but had little money. Hell, when he died, my wife and I had to pay for the funeral. So much for your assumptions regarding "daddy's money," you piece of garbage. Go grab your mother's boyfriend another Pabst Blue Ribbon, and keep your mouth shut.

  41. Nando, you said nothing meaningful there. Nothing. You run on emotion, from a very big chip on your shoulder. Get the fuck over it. I mean, when you have to resort to insults every other sentence as you do, who really has the issues? You. Anon said is right on about this blog, even if his assumptions are lazy. But that aren't any worse to those of this blog.

  42. To cretin,

    At least you are well aware of the fact that you are a moron. Self-reflection is important. I clearly have the facts on my side. (You should at least check out the links, charts, graphs and industry statements I cite to, cockroach, BEFORE commenting.) I don't need to resort to personal attacks. However, my patience wears thin - when dealing with those who have shown themselves to be intellectually dishonest. Those who are immune to facts and reason do not deserve one iota of respect. Plus, it is fun to refer to you as a moron. Get over your issues, bitch. Take a pill, or cut yourself. If the former, make sure to also drink plenty of alcohol.

  43. I don't want to hate on Dayton, but unless you want to live and work there, I would highly suggest going to law school elsewhere. I don't feel that the administration is genuinely concerned with helping you succeed at the next level like many other established school are. I went to UDSL and transferred out a few years back and I am very glad that I did. Bottom line; if you don't want to work in Dayton or take a 90% risk of making a substantially lower income than most attorneys, try going somewhere else for law school.

  44. I went to UDSL and graduated in 2005. I work for a large international law firm as an attorney. I make the same money as those attorneys who went to top ten schools. I was not top of the class, I am just really good at what I do. Sure there are people who might overlook me because I have UD on my resume, but that is their loss. The rankings of law schools has no bearing on my skill level. Conversely, just because a lawyer went to a "good" school, does not make that person a good lawyer. Most other industries are more concerned about what a person brings to the table. Many in the legal industry are overly concerned about the ranking of where one went to school. The only Judge who ever mentioned UD, wanted to talk about basketball. All the other Judges I appear in front of, in both state and federal court, see me as a highly effective and personal attorney.

  45. U of Dayton law grads usually end up doing pretty well for themselves in the fast food industry. Not as managers mind you, but as bartenders, bouncers and waitresses.

  46. One of their professors wrote a laughable article on the web about law school career services helping graduates with disabilities. Google the article and the heading is something along these lines: LAW SCHOOL CAREER SERVICES MUST BE PROACTIVE AND HOLISTIC HELPING DISABLED STUDENTS GET EMPLOYMENT. Nando, read the article and lambast it. They wont do more than put a handle bar on the toilet for disabled law students to attend and once they graduate they will be ignored. The ABA even admitted that law firms only hired 1% of their staff as disabled lawyers. So much for promoting diversity.

  47. Is it necessary to be this arrogant over a law school? I don't find any of these reviews to be sufficient in their purpose, moreover they seem to be repetitive when examining minor details of a law school. The comments are ridiculous on here as well. There is a lot of criticism over the intelligence of the school, yet the person somehow has time to take away from their 'genius' practice and troll on law school reviews. I understand stating the truth about the law school, but the reviews and comments seem to be coming from unaccomplished law students that are cynical and egotistical.


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