Tuesday, December 7, 2010

Second Tier Clogged Toilet: Loyola Law School Los Angeles


As homage to Loyola 2L, I am profiling Loyola Law Sewer Los Angeles. Loyola 2L posted several comments on the Wall Street Journal Law Blog, back in 2007, which highlighted the problems with American “legal education.” He helped paved the way for the scam-blog movement.

http://www.lls.edu/admissions/finaid/index.html

Tuition: For the 2010-2011 school year, a full-time student will be charged $41,480 in tuition and fees – for the “privilege” of attending Loyola Law School Los Angeles. Yes, that figure is in US currency.

Total Cost of Attendance: The school estimates that room and board; books and supplies; personal expenses, transportation costs; and loan fees will add another $26,402 to the tab. This would bring the total estimated COA to $67,882 - for the 2010-2011 academic year alone!!

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/rankings/page+3

Ranking: Jump for joy, Loyola Marymount University Law hopefuls! This school is ranked, by US News & World Report, as the 56th greatest, most phenomenal, amazing, exhilarating law school in the entire United States. Yay!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyola_Law_School

However, this commode was supposedly ranked 23rd by the Cooley Rankings, in 2008. And those are the ratings that legal employers care about, right?!?!

http://www.lls.edu/about/

Alleged Employment Placement: The commode claims a graduate employment rate of “97%+ within nine months of graduation.” Yes, that figure seems very accurate – and Lauren Graham just locked her ankles around my waist, and dug her nails ¼” into my torso. Notice how these rats did not provide a breakdown of this placement rate?

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/grad_debt

Average Student Indebtedness: US News reports the average student indebtedness for Loyola’s Class of 2009 at $125,264. This would make this school’s graduates the seventh-most indebted law class. Furthermore, 86% of this particular graduating class took out law school debt.

http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2009/951/643/2009-951643334-05e69cdd-9.pdf

Faculty and Administrator Pay: Go to page 41 of this university’s 2009 Form 990. From there, we can see that Dean Victor J. Gold made $328,483 in TOTAL COMPENSATION for 2008. Yes, Victor made $232,105 in base compensation; $26,500 in bonus and incentive compensation; $20,147 in “other” compensation; $21,850 in deferred compensation; and $27,881 in non-taxable benefits.

That is not all. Former dean of the law school and L2L punching bag, David Burcham, made $393,851 in TOTAL COMPENSATION - for 2008, as well. He was named president of the university in 2008. Way to look out for your students, David, by keeping the tuition so affordable.

http://intranet.lls.edu/studentaffairs/groups/reviews.html

What’s that you say, Lemming? You can write onto the Loyola of Los Angeles Entertainment Law Review?!?! Yes, I am sure that women in bars will find you irresistible - and employers will likewise salivate over you.

http://loyola.lawschoolnumbers.com/

Entering GPA and LSAT Scores: According to this site, the 75th percentile of Loyola Class of 2009 students scored a 163 on the LSAT. Those 25th percentile had a score of 159. Those in the 75th percentile had a UGPA of 3.58, whereas those in the 25th percentile earned a 3.16 GPA during undergrad. The higher figures are decent numbers, and yet these students are finding it very difficult to find employment upon graduation! This might possibly have something to do with a shrinking lawyer job market.

http://www.lls.edu/media/documents/LLSFactSheet.pdf

However, this supposed “Fact Sheet” lists the employment rate as 95%+ within nine months of graduation. This appears to be a newer version. I guess the recession/restructuring of the American economy did have a negligible effect on Loyola JDs.

Conclusion: This school is a GROSSLY OVERPRICED, Jesuit rat-hole. The Roman Catholic Church has committed some horrendous crimes, during its lengthy history. I recognize that these atrocities have occurred largely in the past. However, consigning LEGIONS of present-day law graduates to a lifetime of debt servitude is CLEARLY not something Jesus would do, either.

Remember, Loyola Law Sewer students, you will be competing against Cal-Berkeley, Stanford, USC and UCLA JDs for the scarce number of decent jobs out there. Would you take out $130K-$190K and make such a terrible bet?!?! Because that is exactly what you will be doing if you have the gall to attend this stench pit. The school simply wants your money. They do not give one damn what happens to you, upon graduation. Unless you are a trust fund baby, stay the hell away from this stink pit.

113 comments:

  1. It will cost almost anyone nearly $70K per year to attend Loyola Law School. Hey kid, psst. Why don't you just give me $20K and I will kick you in the gnads? That experience, while painful, won't be as traumatizing as getting bent over and being sodomized without lubrication while being swindled out of $70K per year.

    Nando mentions several other local schools that are far superior to this dump but he omits Pepperdine, which is incidentally ranked 4 spots higher than Loyola and has a better student body to salivate over if you know what I mean. If you are going to get hoodwinked out of $200K for 3 years, you might as well feast on prime T&A while you are at it. Then again, chances are that if you are in law school, your woman game is weak and you need the JD to chest thump over something when talking about yourself.

    Kids, models and bottles is a term used by law students of the 80s and 90s that had good odds of making it as lawyers. Those days are long gone. If you REALLY want to be a lawyer, I would wait for the inevitable announcement that the ABA will accredit law schools abroad and go there instead where a JD will be exponentially cheaper. Who gives a shit if you will live in a shack somewhere in Mumbai for 3 years? At least you will save a lot of money as you will pay a fraction of the US tuition cost. Plus, given that you assume you will finish in the top 5% of your class (a fantasy that 95% of current 1Ls will snap out of when grades are released in a few short weeks), it will be much easier to achieve this feat when competing with the likes of "Raj" or "Hassim" Patel.

    The profession is dead people. Pursuing a law degree just makes you a necrophiliac.

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  2. Obviously the ABA doesn't give a flying Fuck about how many lives are being destroyed with 6 figure debt and no job prospects.

    I think a letter should be sent to the American Psychiatric Association or similar organization.

    http://www.psych.org/Footer/Contact.aspx

    It should ask that Specialists in the field of Mental Health look into these scam blogs, and form an opinion as to the devastating psychological effects fo being shackled to a lifetime of debt, with no job as well.

    With no way out, but to go flippin' out of your mind, and possibly kill oneself as the debt grows year by year with no relief in sight.

    There must be Psychological labels for the feelings of hopelessness and depression, despair, paranoia and fear that the debtor wakes up with every single morning.

    As in: What's the use of even trying anymore. I'm so deeply in debt, I'm better off dead.
    And even if the loan is discharged after 25 years, the IRS will punish me severely in my old age.


    As I say, Medical/Psychological case-studies are in order.

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  3. Anonymous @ 2:18 a.m. are you L4L? You have a similar writing style.

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  4. The one and only benefit of legal training is the ability to recognize and appreciate rhetoric that is both true and beautiful.

    "The profession is dead people. Pursuing a law degree just makes you a necrophiliac."

    This is truly beautiful.

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  5. What is sad is that kids get into schools like this piece of garbage and they think they have it made. In some ways, these mid-tier schools are worse than TTTs and TTTTs. I think that a fair amount of those realize they are fucked unless they make top 5%.

    With the midrange schools, many kids come in with 3.7s and 165s. Looking at this as some grand accomplishment these boys and girls mistakenly think they will make it big as long as they get in the top half.

    Students at these toilet factories are happy to spend $130K for a law degree from a tier 1 or tier 2 school. Little do these suckers know what waits in store for them. There are people graduating from T14 schools that are shit outta luck. The writing is on the wall, 0Ls. This is a dying profession. At least in America anyway. Many of you will need to take your law degree to a non-legal employer. See how impressed they are with that blazing credential.

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  6. If law students are necrophiliacs, what does that make the law school deans? Corpse pimps?

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  7. To add to what Nando has said, Loyola is also the finer educational institution that changed it's grading curve retroactively:

    http://abovethelaw.com/2010/03/loyola-law-school-la-retroactively-inflates-grades/

    "Last week the faculty approved a proposal to modify the grading system. The change will boost by one step the letter grades assigned at each level of our mandatory curve. For example, what previously was a B- would be a B, what previously was a B would be a B+, and so forth. All other academic standards based on grades, such as the probation and disqualification thresholds, are also adjusted upwards by the same magnitude. For reasons that will be explained below, these changes are retroactive to include all grades that have been earned under the current grading system since it was adopted. This means that all grades already earned by current students will be changed. It also means that all grades going forward will be governed by the new curve. The effect of making the change retroactive will be to increase the GPA of all students by .333. The change will not alter relative class rank since the GPA of all students will be moved up by the same amount."

    Is there a more transparently bush league move law schools could do that would scream "our grads need all the help they can get?"

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  8. lol they're at $42k compensation now?!

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  9. The school can inflate their students' GPA into the stratosphere. If I ever receive a resume from a Loyola Law grad with a 4.0 GPA, law review, order of the coif, etc., his/her resume would inevitably make it to my trash bin.

    NYC Hiring Partner

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  10. Let the Ol' Colonel weigh in on this bitch, okay? Now lemme jus' say dis: I don' give a greasy-fried fuck if this skool is rated 52nd best. Hell, I's not sho I's woul's let a Loyola law grad nears mah fryers.

    In th' first place, the school is still 2nd tier. Secondly, i's got some stiff competishun in California. I's gots'ta compete wit' Rally's, Sonic, Inn-N-Out, ad infinitum. I's gettin' a peptic ulcer jus' thinkin' 'bout dis shit.

    Alls I's can say is dis school is a joke. Most of the grads are fucked royally. Jus' look at the goddamn motherfuckin' tuition bill. Sweet Jeebus!!

    Can I git a biscuit and a side o' cole slaw wit' dat?

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  11. NYC Hiring Partner, you have no credibility. If your law firm is so prestigious that you only look at resumes from Ive League types, then good for you and that will never change no matter how much this profession is in the crapper. Thus your analysis is irrelevant.

    If however you are just some blowhard who has input on some firms hiring policy, I call total BS that you would just dicard a resume from a Loyala grad with all those credentials just because they went to Loyola.

    Your arrogance reeks of the stench of a toilet.

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  12. Go to the Loyola law skewl web link below:

    http://loyola.lawschoolnumbers.com/

    Notice anything peculiar? Under Careers it says "Coming Soon!" $210,000 for a JD from this dungpit and all they can say about your career prospects is "Coming Soon!?" Regardless of its second tier status, this school has engaged in TTT treacherous behavior (i.e., retroactive artificial grade inflation, etc.).

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  13. I went to this school, the majority of kids there were those who went to law school "to figure things out," or didn't like the working world, so another three years of school seemed like a good idea. Loyola isn't that bad, it is just that the market has shrunken so much that a second tier legal market like Los Angeles (yes, L.A. is a second tier legal market) can not absorb more than USC & UCLA. Loyola, Southwestern & Pepperdine are spillage. The top 10% will have a shot at some decent jobs. The rest, i do not care who your connections are, really do not have a shot.

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  14. December 7, 2010 11:50 AM:

    But the thing is, 11:50, our NYC friend is actually performing a type of public service--namely, the main message is that law is about PRESTIGE. Period.

    Wanna go to a non-T-14, in an era when even those kids are having a tough time? By all means, go. No one is saying not to go to law school. Record numbers are applying, and we all know that. Nonetheless, the scambloggers, and participants like NYC, make clear to the kids BEFORE making that huge investment in time and money, that said non-elite JD's are frought with dangers in a nasty, hyper-crowded, prestige-obsessed "profession."

    By all means, kids, go to law school. But with the help of the scamblog community, you will know that, essentially, if unconected, you are buying a lotto ticket. It is an economic good that some, seeing this nasty situation for what it is, may avoid the gross misallocation of personal resources that is law school, and just plain old do something else with their valuable time and money.

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  15. @ 10:18

    Just what is "order of the coif"?

    Something a mortician does when styling a stiff's hair?

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  16. Many law schools have, I believe, an Order of the Coif chapter, and it is for high scholastic achievement.

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  17. I don't know much about order of the coif, but at Pepperdine you learn great things such as the coital alignment technique.

    I can't speak for many NYC hiring partners but here in NYC there are thousands of resumes circulating from T14 grads. Why consider even stellar grads from non-T14 schools, especially from places such as Loyola? We have the pick of the litter. Who wants to hire academic runts?

    Also, who gives a shit that Johnnie Cochran went to Loyola (a fact that administrators from Loyola still pound in lemmings' heads to this day). Do you really think some crummy crim law professor at Loyola taught Johnnie about the "if the glove don't fit, you must acquit" strategy?

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  18. NY City Hiring Partner:

    That's why I love NY. Everything the world over that you can possibly imagine can be found in NY. Even if you don't take advantage of it every day, at least one know's it is very close.

    If you are into Bluegrass, the best Bluegrass players in the world are in the NY Metro area.

    If you like Belly-dancing or coital alignment-you won't have to look far.

    Jesuit teacher Priests? We got a lot of them too.

    Art? Jewels? History? Shoes and Ships, and Ceiling Wax? All here in the NY Metro Area.

    Every time I travel around the US, I kiss the ground after re-crossing the GW Bridge and back in the Bronx.

    And I know I slam New Jersey a lot, but even New Jersey is like home.

    In NY, it is sunny, and we have a nice change of seasons at a good pace.

    We don't have earthquakes or Tornadoes. Just a threat of a Hurricane once in a blue moon.

    Maybe 7 or 8 years ago I was in mid-Virginia.
    Yes, I was hopelessly "Inland." in the USA.
    A town called Lexington.

    Now, in such a town as Lexington, there are two gigs going on: The Virginia Military Institute, or VMA, and what is known as W&L or "Washington and Lee."

    And that pretty much is all the fuck there is in that God-Forsaken town. And if you ain't a part of those two schools, you are an outcast.If you are not still fighting the Civil War, you are an outcast.

    I couldn't wait to get back on the highway and head back to NY. And I recall telling the good old boy local yokels in Lexington that New York is a World Capitol, and that there are Colleges and Universities all over the Fucking Place. And no out of towner School will be able to get away with the bullshit they pull in their own bullshit little local worlds.

    The main difference being that in NY the people might try to break your chops, but in small town America and the University Systems that sustain many of these small towns, the people with the upper hand will absolutely try to pull rank on you and try to break your Heart.

    Of course there are other major cities in the US as well that are similar. But for me, NY is Home.

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  19. http://www.lls.edu/academics/candp/pid.html

    Apparently, Loyola Law Sewer feels the need to have a Public Interest Law Department.

    “Also, by being the first ABA-accredited school in the State of California to have a mandatory pro bono service requirement, and by offering funding for 70 summer employment positions in local legal service organizations, each and every Loyola Law School student has the opportunity to experience the satisfaction of fulfilling their obligation to the community at large.”

    Who knows? It may give current students at this commode an opportunity to serve Loyola Law alumni. Perhaps, they can distribute food, coats and blankets for Loyola JDs. That ought to give these students some real satisfaction.

    http://disabilityrightslegalcenter.org/

    This group works out of the law school. They also have a satellite office on La Verne Commode of Law’s provisionally-accredited campus. Then again, provisional accreditation is apparently all these diploma mills really need.

    http://www.abanet.org/legaled/resources/faq.html

    “Individuals who graduate from provisionally approved school are considered by the ABA to be students attending an ABA-approved law school. It does not matter that the school was not approved when the student first enrolled in the school or that the school loses its approval subsequent to an individual's graduation. Most states follow this policy. However, students should always check individual state requirements concerning their ability to take the bar exam.”

    http://www.lls.edu/about/deanmsg.html

    Look at the dean’s message. (For the moment, overlook the fact that this man resembles the Geico Insurance gecko.)

    According to Gold, here is what allegedly makes Loyola “special”:

    “A commitment to public service- Loyola Law School has had an exceptionally strong commitment to public interest law since 1920. Loyola Law is the first ABA accredited school in California with a mandatory pro bono service requirement--Loyola students donate well over 20,000 hours of student legal services each year to non-profit organizations.”

    Yeah, because after slapping down $170K for a “legal education,” that is what students are interested in doing with their lives, right?!?! And it will not be overly burdensome for someone to pay back $170K in student loans while making $40K per year, will it?!?!

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  20. Law school is a scam and the US government needs to do something to stop these TTT and TTTT from taking advantage of young college graduates. There are too many attorneys and not enough jobs to go around.


    Unless you go to a T14 school then I don't think law school is worth it.

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  21. love the image...but you need to have $100 bills on that t.p. dispenser. Because that is what the law adminstrators are wiping their asses with. You could say they are wiping their backsides with these kids futures too.

    Law schools are money making ventures. They are designed to enrich teachers and admins, not students. Anyone who says otherwise is a lying sack of shit and probably on a diploma factory's payroll.

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  22. Flowers for Algernon says:

    I thenk thaat though bee a reely smaardt and uuh greet lawyuher is reely good and uh greeat good thiing tuu ahfther allhough bee.

    everyhuonegh in thee wurlldt will be reeely reeely impressed wth the lawuyerth handsome smart jesuhhhit guy religious summmething.

    Reeely reeely good. and munney is a bad thinhghs,

    so dont ever havfe too pay munney pleeese.
    the doctor says thea t munney is bad to be old.

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  23. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  24. hey nando,
    I just got a fee waiver and encouragement to apply to Drake. So we can be fellow dung-pile alumni in 3 years. ;)

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  25. Why anyone would even be considering a non-elite law school, when there are a zillion other interesting things to go into, is beyond me.

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  26. Some people have to learn for themselves. This will date me but who cares.

    Don't take Mu-fucking-hammad Ali's word that Joe Frazier has a monstrous left hook. (He beat Ali's ass into oblivion.) Step in the ring with Smokin' Joe and find out for yerself. Step right in!

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  27. Oh My God. I was reading some of the Student Loan Horror stories here:

    http://studentloanjustice.org/victims.htm

    Things are getting really bad with the student loan situation in the USA.

    After reading these kinds of stories I am very afraid for the future. This kind of situation cannot sustain itself.

    Kids, we are living in very terrible times in the USA. All consumer protections have been eradicated.

    Do not, and I repeat: DO NOT TAKE OUT STUDENT LOANS for anything.

    If you cannot afford a Higher Education.

    Do not go.

    Please, for the love of a merciful GOD! If I could grap you by the shoulders and shake some sense into you:

    DO NOT TAKE OUT STUDENT LOANS

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  28. Dear 11:50AM:

    When I became a lawyer, the rules had been in place for decades. When you are billing associates at $400/hr, a client wants to know that the associate is among the best and the brightest. Lets not kid ourselves here. Loyola is not producing the Ronald Dworkins of the legal community. As others here have mentioned, prestige is very paramount in this profession. Do I think all non-peer lawyers are dumb? No, in fact I know of many HYS pedigree attorneys that are incompetent, but many overlook this fact because they cream over the HYS credential.

    As an attorney, I cannot look a client in the eye and say a Loyola grad is worth billing $400/hr with a straight face. I would lose credibility and the firm's bottom line would suffer. I am not saying don't go to Loyola. If you want to set up a solo shop, be my guest and wrap yourself around a $200,000.00 non-dischargeable liability. Yet, don't expect me to be impressed by a Loyola JD, especially given that there are many T14 grads and lawyers with experience actively looking for positions.

    You would think kids armed with this knowledge will heed my warnings with 20 years of legal experience. However, many will continue to take the plunge head first into the shallow waters of Toilet Turd Tank law schools. These kids get no sympathy from me and are not entitled to a job, certainly not at my firm and certainly by displaying such blind and arrogant stupidity.

    NYC Hiring Partner

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  29. As an attorney, I cannot look a client in the eye and say a Loyola grad is worth billing $400/hr with a straight face. I would lose credibility and the firm's bottom line would suffer. I am not saying don't go to Loyola. If you want to set up a solo shop, be my guest and wrap yourself around a $200,000.00 non-dischargeable liability. Yet, don't expect me to be impressed by a Loyola JD, especially given that there are many T14 grads and lawyers with experience actively looking for positions. I like it so much Thanks MA

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  30. As an attorney, I cannot look a client in the eye and say a Loyola grad is worth billing $400/hr with a straight face. I would lose credibility and the firm's bottom line would suffer. I am not saying don't go to Loyola. If you want to set up a solo shop, be my guest and wrap yourself around a $200,000.00 non-dischargeable liability. Yet, don't expect me to be impressed by a Loyola JD, especially given that there are many T14 grads and lawyers with experience actively looking for position. This is very very good side I like it so much Thanks MA

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  31. "As an attorney, I cannot look a client in the eye and say a Loyola grad is worth billing $400/hr with a straight face."

    How can you even tell them the Yale grads are worth $400/hr without laughing uncontrollably?

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  32. @6:47AM

    During the economic boom, many clients including GCs, were willing to pay a premium for prestige.

    Let's conduct a little exercise here. Say you were on death row and had the choice of a public defender to handle your appeal. Without looking at transcripts for stuff such as GPA, law review, etc., the only thing you knew was that PD1 went to HLS and PD2 went to Loyola Law School. Can you honestly tell me you won't pick the HLS every day of the week and twice on Sunday over the Loyola educated lawyer?

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  33. @7:45 a.m.

    Yes, I can honestly tell you that there is a good chance I would pick PD2 even though he went to Loyola as opposed to Harvard. In the real world (i.e., non-law school world), no client hires an attorney based solely on where they went to school. And if they do, they deserve whatever fate they get. EXPERIENCE, by far, is the determinative factor. What if the Harvard PD has no experience with death row/capital murder cases or appeals, yet the Loyola grad has significant experience, which includes getting a murder conviction overturned?

    After you have been practicing a few years, your experience far outweighs where you went to school or your class rank. Frankly, except for a very few elite jobs, no one really cares. Some of the most successful attorneys I know, both in terms of their legal reputations and financial success, went to TTTs/TTTTs. And I practice in a major jurisdiction.

    Of course, the problem is (and where I agree with Nando), is that it's much easier to get experience as a young attorney from a top law school compared to a TTT. From a hiring perspective, there is simply no way to distinguish between recent law grads because they have no actual experience. So the only thing I can do is look at law school and grades.

    Remember, kids, there is a whole world out there beyond Biglaw. Not all small law is shit law. A lot of people make a very good living in non-big law settings. Of course, most successful attorneys actually enjoy the practice of law. The big problem with law school, in addition to the high tuition and unpractical education, is that most law students (at least based on my experience) don't really like the law. They go simply because they think they have no other options.

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  34. On September 15, the House Judiciary's Subcommittee on Commercial and Administrative Law passed H.R. 5043, the Private Loan Bankruptcy Fairness Act of 2010. This is an important step forward for students and consumers, and we are hopeful that the bill will continue to move forward.

    On September 15, the House Judiciary's Subcommittee on Commercial and Administrative Law passed H.R. 5043, the Private Loan Bankruptcy Fairness Act of 2010. This is an important step forward for students and consumers, and we are hopeful that the bill will continue to move forward.

    Please urge your representatives in Congress to support these bills to provide fair treatment of borrowers with private student loans.

    Cut and Paste the following link to fax petition-Fax one every day from now until the current session ends

    http://projectonstudentdebt.org/letter_view.php?idx=21

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  35. "As an attorney, I cannot look a client in the eye and say a Loyola grad is worth billing $400/hr with a straight face."

    Perhaps, but if you look at the rosters of BigLaw firms, especially among the partnership, you will find a broad diversity of law schools represented; this many firms obviously went to their client with a straight face and asked them to pay substantially more than $400/hr for lawyers from TT/TTT schools, and the client agreed. Are such attorneys outliers? Absolutely, but any BigLaw attorney is an outlier. The point is that BigLaw is so unrepresentative of the type of work that the typical law grad will be looking for as to be essentially irrelevant today. Once you start pointing to outliers and saying "you will never be them," you simply invite those hoping against hope to look for the exceptions to the rule, and those exceptions are out there. BigLaw should simply not be a part of this conversation.

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  36. It is unconscionable for a diploma mill to charge $41,480 in annual tuition and then bill itself as a school that steers its students toward public interest. How can these pigs have ANY credibility – when many of the “professors” are making well into six figures?!?!

    News flash, lemmings: If you want to do some good in this world, you DO NOT NEED to take out $130K or $175K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE loans to do so. When those student loans come due, MOST law students will not be in a position where they can work for $35K or $40K per year. This is especially the case for those who seek to marry, start a family or purchase a home. I recognize that not everyone shares these goals, but they do remain hallmarks for many.

    How can these Jesuit schools claim to be fulfilling a Christian mission?! Is there a greater societal need for MORE impoverished lawyers who live in crappy basement apartments?!

    Sometimes, people ask me why I go after these religious schools with extra vigor. I do so because it is HYPOCRITICAL for these commodes to say they are for looking out for the poor and destitute. In fact, for those foolish enough to enter their halls

    In the end, these are money-making enterprises hiding behind the veil of their particular religion. They are cash cows for the universities they are associated with. As such, they are not worthy of one ounce of respect or reverence. It does not matter that they have “non-profit” status. That is simply a designation, for tax purposes.

    http://lawmrh.wordpress.com/2010/03/14/for-profit-schools-not-the-only-ones-luring-students-into-debt-what-about-non-profit-law-schools/

    This article sums this situation up nicely:

    “This morning’s New York Times reports how In Hard Times, Lured Into Trade School and Debt desperate students are enrolling in overpriced for profit trade schools and colleges through dubious promises of good paying jobs following graduation. The Times reports that the schools are especially focused on exploiting federal student aid programs that target low income students.

    I read the article and kept thinking, hell, this sounds like what’s happening with all the lemmings enrolling in law school, racking up incredible student loan obligations, and then belatedly discovering the job-market stinks.”

    Some of the larger universities take in BILLION$ annually in tax-exempt revenue.

    http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2009/590/624/2009-590624458-05e5f82a-9.pdf

    For instance, on page 20 of this IRS Form 990, you can see that the University of Miami made $509,022,178 in tuition and fees! Taking all of these revenue streams into account from columns A and B, we can see that the University of Miami took in $1,754,092,908 in TAX EMEMPT REVENUE - for 2008!!!! That is one hell of a racket!

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    Replies
    1. I graduated from Loyola Law School in 1981, and I am very satisfied with the education that I received.

      I went to Loyola in part because it had such a high percentage of minority students.

      Would a person charged with murder hire a Loyola grad? Of course he or she would. OJ Simpson did. If you are charged with murder and are innocent, don't you want a lawyer who understands that the vulnerable can be targeted and slandered?

      I represent borrowers oppose big banks. I am fighting their cause and because of my education I can step into the arena with a Georgetown grad and know more about banking law than they have the time to fathom because my heart is in it.

      Now I didn't pay $50,000.00 per year for my degree. Nor do I think a dean of any school should make $300,000.00.

      But this problem runs through our entire economy. There is no longer a connection between the cost of an education and its market value. The same is true for the medical industry and the Charity industry. The disconnect between cost and value has happened because student loans are readily available (a good thing), while the education industry is completely unregulated.

      Lastly, why would a New Yorker castigate Jesuit education. Like me thousands of men obtained Jesuit high school educations. That education remains in high regard. My Jesuit high school in NY provided me the best and hardest schooling of my life.

      Delete
  37. "Can you honestly tell me you won't pick the HLS every day of the week and twice on Sunday over the Loyola educated lawyer?"

    Nope. In that setting, it all hinges on which one's the better criminal defense attorney. And if I'm navigating the California state system, I would default to the Loyola grad over the Harvard or Yale grad without knowing anything more.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Hmm, TTT law grad v. Harvard Law grad
    Super model v. Susan Boyle
    Filet Mignon v. White Castle slider

    Needless to say, Boyle, the slider and the TTT law grad have much in common.

    ReplyDelete
  39. JDog put up a link to the grade inflation system at this school. This shows that the school is aware how tough it is out there for their grads. They could raise the grade by a full letter but it won't do any good as everyone's class rank is unaffected.

    It might impress non-law employers. They are ignorant of the forced curve and grades in LS. I am pretty sure California law firms are aware of this and will question the value of those grades. Loyola Los ANgeles = useless shit pile.

    ReplyDelete
  40. When I think of places like Loyola, I think of the picture that Nando posted with the Brooklyn Law School profile. Especially the part where the OL starts out as a steak with the hope "great legal job$ here I come" only to be digested (stripped of student loan money nutrients that are absorbed by professors and administrator salaries) by the law school monster and then defecated into a shitlaw toilet.

    ReplyDelete
  41. I think Catholic Priest enrollment is way down in the US.

    I don't know about the Jesuit order. But the Jesuits are supposed to be the elite intellects.

    And I just wanted to share this:

    I was at an event some years ago for all of the huge real-estate holders in the region.

    I'm talking great big Real Estate Developers and owners, and at the offices of a very large law firm that catered to these people.

    Well, guess who was also there among the Real Estate bigwigs, and wearing a collar on behalf of the Real Estate division of the Catholic Church?

    A Catholic Priest.

    So the Catholic Church has lots of land and money. Always has and always will.

    I drove past Villanova University about 6 or 7 years ago, and was really impressed at the magnificence of the stone buildings.

    I had no idea that Villanova was a Catholic School at the time. And I'm Catholic.

    But really impressive and Grand, as I say.

    Lastly, please go here and see this article at CBS Moneywatch here:

    http://moneywatch.bnet.com/investing/blog/make-money/7-things-they-dont-tell-you-about-student-loans/690/#comments

    ReplyDelete
  42. ^^^ Dammit the link soesn't seem to be working.

    But it is an article from yesterday. Jane Bryant Quinn, entitled 7 things they don't tell you about student loans. check it out.

    ReplyDelete
  43. http://moneywatch.bnet.com/investing/blog/make-money/7-things-they-dont-tell-you-about-student-loans/690/

    That works. Thanks for the tip.

    1. The default rate is much higher than the government leads you to believe.

    4. The government and collection agencies can beat you with tactics not allowed for other types of loans. For example, they can seize tax refunds, garnish up to 15 percent of your disposable income, and seize part of your Social Security or disability payments if you receive more than $750 a month — all without getting a court order.

    6. You’re also at risk if you co-sign a loan and the borrower can’t pay.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Lets put it in another perspective.

    If you had to co-sign between 2 student loans, for one student attending HLS and the other attending Loyola, which student loan would you co-sign? Remember in this hypo you have to choose a loan to co-sign. "Neither" is not an acceptable answer. If you say you will co-sign the Loyola student loan, you are a fucking moron.

    ReplyDelete
  45. @1:39

    Very good point.

    As in: put your money where your mouth is.

    Me, I'd co-sign for the Harvard kid.

    I have met some Ivy league lawyers, and they are scary smart.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Hey Nando, great stuff, big fan of what you are doing to expose these rackets. Being an Ohioan I wonder when you will return to the state after profiling Toledo. We have plenty of low-hanging fruit ready for the picking with Dayton, Ohio Northern, and Capital - just the private schools.
    I mean really, the state would be fine with Ohio State, Cincinnati, Case Western, and maybe Cleveland State, but what the hell, why not have 9 total schools and not enough jobs to go around? Especially in northern Ohio with Akron, Ohio Northern, Toledo because those areas are located in dynamic, I mean dying economies.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Listen you kids:

    Some people say that these scamblogs are too negative, and that some inspiration is in order.

    What better inspiration than the story of Dolly Dimples?

    Yes, Dolly Dimples, the Human Marvel!

    You can read about Dolly here:

    http://thehumanmarvels.com/?p=48

    She went from 555 pounds to a svelte 112 pounds all within 14 months.

    Dolly was motivated. So now, aren't all of you ashamed?

    Get out there and pay off your six figure debt!
    Go beat those loans up! and scream in the face of that non-legal employer!

    Tell him or her: "I'm From a Fucking T4, and Proud of it! And if Dolly Fucking Dimples can do it, I can too!"

    The prospective employer might not understand, but at least you will have gotten something off your chest.

    So Remember Dolly Dimples, and Horatio Algers, and Tony Motherfucking Robbins.

    You can do it!

    Just stop twitching over your six figure debt, because nervous ticks don;t help a job interview.

    ReplyDelete
  48. @1:39

    Your analogy is irrelevant and meaningless. No one has suggested that a Harvard grad does not have better job prospects than a Loyola grad. That's a given. So yes, co-signing with a Harvard grad is most likely the better choice, assuming the Loyola grad is not independently wealthy.

    But that has nothing to do with the Harvard v. Loyola public defender scenario. A Harvard lawyer is not always the better choice for legal representation over a Loyola grad.

    @1:50

    When people are charged with a capital crime, there are doing more than putting their money where their mouth is. There are putting their freedom where their mouth is. And I have met plenty of Ivy League lawyers, and a lot of them where not that bright. For example, although I've never met him, take Elie Mystal from Above The Law. Read his blog entries and tell me you would be comfortable having him represent you.

    ReplyDelete
  49. "And I have met plenty of Ivy League lawyers, and a lot of them where not that bright."

    Well you had better explain why, because the ones I have met were highly successful and brilliant actually.

    And in today's enviornment, the Atticus Finch criminal defense figure you are so fond of throwing up in the air, will never get off the ground.

    He or she will be stomped to death by student debt. Before the talent and/or experience process can ever go into play.

    But yes, once more, if the playing field was different, your talented prodigy would stand out like a rustic beauty among the Dames of the Court.

    But the playing field is not, and the talented would be defense lawyer will end up severely punished by the Student Lending system.

    Impoverished, and having to take whatever job comes along.

    A bag of groceries is a bag of groceries. and that bag of necessities never asks where the money came from to buy it. It doesn't care if the person buying it is a JD T4,3,2,1. Or an auto mechanic, or a day laborer.

    And, yes, things are that bad.

    ReplyDelete
  50. @ 2:21

    Clock's ticking.....

    Think. Think. Hatch up an answer.

    I'll be back tomorrow.

    ReplyDelete
  51. @ 1:55 pm,

    I will be more than happy to shove a plunger into those Ohio toilets. First, I am planning to profile one or two more California toilets. What is frustrating is that so many of these diploma mills happen to be located in economic dead zones.

    This means that kids of modest means - and no connections - feel added pressure to pursue advanced degrees. (They need to distinguish themselves from the rest of the workforce.) Sadly, there are not enough jobs to go around. Many will be left out in the cold.

    This is one of the biggest reasons I continue to go after the law school industry with an ax handle.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Loyola law school acted hypocritically when it instituted the retroactive grade inflation. On the one hand, they cite the ethics handbook that students shall not exaggerate or hyperbolize their GPA for job seeking purposes (thus, a 3.435 cannot be rounded off to a 3.5), yet with the other, they do it for the students. Do you really think the law school instituted the policy with the student's well being in mind? Hell no. They are more concerned about the house of cards rankings of the USNWR. Say what you will but if I ever saw a Loyola law grad resume and look at his/her GPA, the first thing that will come to mind is "is this a school inflated GPA?" This is not something I would want a prospective employer to think about the first time he/she sees my resume. So when you really think about, the law school fucked over its students to save face with the USNWR rankings.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Another interesting article here Re: Student loans and other things:


    http://seekingalpha.com/article/240714-student-loan-scam-perverts-fed-s-consumer-credit-report

    ReplyDelete
  54. Folks, here's a stock tip. Buy many shares of Kleenex because in a few short weeks, thousands of 1Ls will be weeping and wailing about how they studied their ass off and thought they would make the top 10% of their class only to fall short of the goal. At that point, many kids have the option of folding and going home with only $20K in loans. But their hubris will fuck with their heads and they will continue the downward spiral to more non-dischargeable debt. Kids, here is a tip for you. First semester grades determine your fate. If you bomb one class and get straight A's the rest of your law school career, chances are employers will interview you, but your one bad grade will stick out like a sore thumb. Hope you enjoy the taste of law skool justice.

    ReplyDelete
  55. I am a one-L at St. Thomas in Miami. I have my last exam (contracts) this afternoon. I am fairly certain I will be academically dismissed from this toilet at the conclusion of this semester. If so, it's probably for the best because I don't think I want to be a lawyer. If I am dismissed, I will have 27k (plus interest)in debt, but that's better than 150k and no job (or a 30k crap job).

    ReplyDelete
  56. Good for you @6:43, except don't wait to be dismissed. Run, don't walk from that "school" no matter your grades.

    ReplyDelete
  57. 6:43, you should just walk away from this mess. If your heart is not in this, chances are you will be miserable even if you become a lawyer. Being saddled with ~$150K in debt will make you that much more miserable. In your situation if you somehow surprise yourself and make top 10% you should still drop out. St. Thomas in Miami is third or fourth tier, is that right? (I don't know because I never heard of it.) Employers still won't be impressed and having $150K in loans will not help the situation. Don't let your friends of family talk you into staying if your heart is not into this career. While being good-intentioned, these people have no fucking idea what the job market is like for baby lawyers.

    Prepare for the storm, fellow traveler. Wait for parents and family members to call you a quitter and a loser. Have some tough skin. Concentrate on finding a job. At least now you won't have to explain a 3 year shoddy employment record. You can look employers in the eye and sincerely tell 'em that you thought law would be a nice option. You went and got a better understanding of the job market. You tried it and figured out it was not the path for you. Employers will appreciate that refreshing honesty. Don't be like nando and tell them that the job market is a flaming ball of shit. BUt let them know that you determined taking out $150K for a chance to earn $40K was not worth the trade off. Best of luck to you and let us know how it turns out. Stay strong. Who cares what some shit-ass cousin you haven't seen in 15 yrs thinks about your decision. I mean, do you go around pointing out to him that he is married to an ugly butter cow?

    ReplyDelete
  58. Thanks for the advice. I'm truly considering dialing the multiple choice section down the middle this afternoon. The truth is the truth: I don't want to be here. I'll keep everyone posted of events as they unfold.
    -Mike @St. Thomas

    ReplyDelete
  59. Just looked this up. Nando decimated this shithole back during the summer. Does this sound like an accurate description of the school you are attending?

    http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/2010/06/fourth-tier-trash-can-st-thomas.html

    Jesus. Tuition is $33K a year. And it looks like it is in the fourth tier.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Yes, that's STU, alright. And living in the dorm is terrible. The behavior that's condoned here would not be tolerated in section 8 housing. No rules. It's a very "thug" friendly campus. I cannot believe this is an institution for learning. My experience here (aside from personal realizations) has been horrible.

    ReplyDelete
  61. I'm sorry to hear that. It must be tough. Miami is full of bums, hooligans, reprobates, punks, gangstas, bitchez, dealers, snitches and thugs. Don't forget tank tops, condom caps and fuckheads wearing pants down around the bottom of their ass. It's what warm climates with a nice nightlife attract. You can pump weights during the day, work on a tan, roll dice, and steal granny's purse at night. You can even beat the fuck out an 84 year old man for a night cap. The thugs can stay out at all hours of the day. I remember Miami being about the worst place for air travelers going back at least a decade. Central FL is not much better. My friend lived in a gated community outside Orlando. I can see why Disney and that staunch Catholic pizza magnate guy decided to buy up their own private cities in Florida. They are trying to keep the filth out.

    'Thug friendly campus'. Now that is something else entirely. Where do these thugs get the $ for their law school education? My guess is it came from government backed loans. And the country goes a little farther down the shitter.

    ReplyDelete
  62. What does "Free Love" and the "Law School Dream" have in common? They are both dead. Back in the 70s, people fucked other people sans condoms and it was a glorious decade. Drugs, free love and awesome disco music made the world go round and round. Yeah and the law school dream was still alive then.

    1981 rolled around and AIDS slammed the door on many guys' dicks. Free love died...and 20 years later so did the law school dream. Today, law schools are still selling the dream for a high price. Gullible and frightened college grads are gladly taking the bait while indenturing themselves to a lifetime of non-dischargeable debt. Good luck trying to find sympathy from a bankruptcy judge that is probably bankrolling his/her kids' college bill with a paltry non-article III salary.

    I think it is criminal that these schools continue to report 90 plus percent employment rates while tilting the starting salaries at the higher end of the bi-modal scale ($160K plus bonuses). Law schools, especially the TTTs are selling a pipe dream to scared fiends that cannot appreciate what it's like to drown in 6 figure non-dischargeable debt.

    Students should heed the warnings on this site. Most won't because they believe a 3.7 GPA in liberal studies and a 165 LSAT will make them the exception. Sadly, this entire generation is in for a rude awakening. Student debt will be to kids today what AIDS was to those guys that were kept out of the 70s sexual revolution.

    3x Divorcee

    ReplyDelete
  63. @December 9, 2010 6:43 AM

    Get out now, kid. that's not too bad moneywise. I was in your position years ago, but decided to "tough it out". Needless to say, I am now in the skilled trades. Those first year grades are an inescapable necessity. This is a diseased "profession" which is hyper-crowded, and there are WAY more fun things to do out there, whether that be in allied health, technology, etc.

    ReplyDelete
  64. @ December 9, 2010 8:28 AM

    Well put. That is the key. You MUST dismiss what others think or may think re the law school thing. Having been there, I WISH I had dropped after my miserable 1L grades. If unconnected, the importance of 1L grades is unbelievable in this overpopulated mess of a "profession." Happily, I ended up in a completely different field. Law is not fun.

    The catch to this whole thing? IMHO, law school is utterly unlike the practice of law; therefore, it is difficult to really tell, as a law student, if one is really in the right field. The law school environment is so unreal (unlike the real professions which ake you do internshhips, residencies, etc.)that you really don't have a true picture while in school.

    ReplyDelete
  65. @9:29 "Miami is full of bums, hooligans, reprobates, punks, gangstas, bitchez, dealers, snitches and thugs. Don't forget tank tops, condom caps and fuckheads wearing pants down around the bottom of their ass."

    You forgot deadbeats (think O.J.) owing to favorable homestead provisions; serial killers, axe murderers; rednecks; and other assorted dirt bags.

    Florida = (Nice weather + Favorable Homestead Provisions + Nice Beaches + Hot Lookin' Bitches + Lack of Good Jobs + Crazy from the Heat) = Dirtbag Magnet.

    ReplyDelete
  66. I decided to patronize the shitlaw jobs link at the top right side of this blog and found this nugget of a shitlaw job:

    http://www.shitlawjobs.com/2010/12/entry-level-attorney-opportunities-in.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ShitLawJobs+%28Shit+Law+Jobs%29

    Imagine going in six figures in student loan debt just to drive around Long Island and do refi notary signings for $75 a pop. Wow, I am sure all those discussions on "Blackacre" and Shelley's Rule will come into play as you witness suckers signing negative amortization or compound interest loans. Just be sure to carry enough malpractice insurance because once those loans sour, those same suckers will blame the "lawyer" who witnessed and "advised" on the mortgage execution. All that risk for $75. Gee, no wonder kids are applying in record numbers to law school.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Florida attracts the waste products of society. 1:31 got everything right. You may like the warm weather, beaches and women that have flat stomachs. So do the criminals who pray on the weak.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Also, be aware that when you do public interest externships for credit at these expensive institutions you will be paying full price for those credit hours! Clinics also require you pay full price for credits so you will be paying a lot of money for the joy of helping the poor (other than yourself).

    ReplyDelete
  69. @6:43

    They probably won't dismiss you. You might be placed on academic probation like I was for my first three semesters.

    Finally, the 2nd and year courses offered some astoundingly easy elective courses. A guaranteed A or B+ if one had a pulse.

    And it was those easy classes that pulled my GPA above passing.

    The school was Touro.

    I even had a conversation with the head Dean in his office, and he very subtly suggested that I take some of these easy elective courses.

    I realized later that if Touro flunked a lot of people out, they would lose a lot of Student Loan tuition dollars.

    I had no business being in any Law School. Even a T4.

    I worked as hard as if not harder than anyone there, and I was still a pathetic issue spotter and IRAC essay writer or whatever the fuck they tried to teach me.

    So I hung on and hung on thinking that all I needed to do was to graduate and everything would be OK.

    But it was not, and never turned out to be OK.

    Today, I owe 300 thousand dollars and not an hour goes by where I don't feel trapped with bad credit and by extension no job prospects because of the bad credit, and think about doing myself in, and I'm half insane over the debt and fucking flippin out of my freakin mind!

    Just one more story in the naked city I guess, but I wake up every morning wondering why the fuck did I bother to wake up so that I can walk on terra firma for another day.

    Another day of interest.

    My debt must surely incresase by 10 or 20 or 50 bucks a day by now, just like the student Loan Debt clock that youse can google.

    ReplyDelete
  70. $41K for one year of tuition? $70K for total cost of attendance for one fucking year. What blithering idiot would pay such costs for a law degree? And it doesn't matter that this school is almost in the first tier. Who gives a shit if the school is 38th best or 52nd or 83rd?

    0Ls, quit acting like this is 1992 when T14 or first tier meant something. (It didn't mean much back then, other than T14 students were almost assured of getting 'a' job.) With the way the market is shifting permanently, I would not pay $41K a year to go to Harvard or NYU. Biglaw will make an economic choice and go with cheaper foreign labor. No clients want to pay so a firm can train its baby lawyers at $400 an hour.

    ReplyDelete
  71. I posted about Ohio and how at least 5 of the toilets need to be closed down. I know kids who keep saying "200k isn't that much because lawyers make bank." Or "this is a great investment in my future." So much bullshit surrounds higher education at almost all levels it is sickening.

    Speaking of noxious turds, Kaplan University is looking for a location in D.C. to open a law school. They now have the Concorida School of Law, or whatever the hell that is, which offers classes online. These bastards know that they are going to get more gullible people by opening an actual physical location. They also spewed some crap about serving students who don't fit the traditional mold. Love how they will charge 30k plus for tuition and plus the kids will have to take out loans for D.C.'s steep cost of living. 150k at least for a Craplan School of Law degree.

    I love how these for-profit schools pray on students at both the undergraduate and graduate levels. Phoenix Law, culinary school, video game design - basically all just giant scam to suck in that federal money. I can't believe that they get away with this crap; default rates are through the roof at these places. It is like the guy I work with in a warehouse who takes out 20k a year in tuition plus another 10k or some shit to get an accounting "degree" from Devry because it will get you a great job down the road. I am about to get a great job too - I am going to be a first-round NBA draft pick soon.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Regarding Public Defenders and schools. I know a number of public defenders, outside Chicago, who went to U. Chicago, U. Michigan, U. Illinois, etc. They joined before the Great Recession and presumably did so out of idealism. The average Assistant State's Attorney or Assistant Public Defender goes to a 3rd or 4th tier school.

    The Chicago/Michigan/Illinois PDs are not better attorneys than those who went to average schools. On average, they're better at legal research and writing, but not in the other parts of being a lawyer.

    One U. Chicago grad left the PD's office after a decade, and numerous capital murder cases, and he is not very succesful. Cooley grads who know how to hustle are eating his lunch.

    In OJ Simpson's team, Loyola grad Johnnie Cochrane was clearly in command and responsible for the victory while Harvard Law Professor Allan Dershowitz took orders and made minor contributions.

    SKILL makes a good lawyer. Being a good student ("PRESTIGE") gets you a job. There comes a point in your career where your actual SKILL, reflected in victories, accomplishments, and reputation, determines your PRESTIGE (ie marketability to clients)and not how good a student you were 20 years before.

    Of course being a good student is necessary to get into biglaw; and it is necessary to get into biglaw if you plan on practicing big law areas like antitrust, M&A, IP and securities. There is a correlation between being a good student and actually being a good lawyer, but it is not as tight as many of you think.

    To the law student/recent grad who posts as "NYC hiring partner": A team of litigators sell themselves on their skill evidenced by past victories and other accomplishments. Who cares about the pedigree of their associates, paralegals and secretaries who will be reviewing documents and making photocopies? If the litigators have won significant victories in the past, they presumably know how to pick and organize the associates and support staff. If the litigators have not won significant victories in their past, then the client better be asking them more probing questions than about the paper credentials of their associates.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Johnnie Cockroach is dead. The slimy bastard died at a relative young age. Burn in hell, you piece of shit. That trial and media circus was determined the moment that jury panel was set up. Robert Shapiro was also on that team. He went to LOyola Law School too.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyola_Law_School#Notable_alumni

    Speaking of other assholes on OJ's team, F Lee Bailey went to Boston U for law school. And whoever came up with the idea of letting OJ put on the actual gloves is a fucking idiot. Of course it was some lawyer for the state. Such a fucking moron did not realize that leather gloves could shrink a little when soaked in blood. The fucking things were also frozen and unfrozen a bunch of times, while in state's evidence. And of course The Juice was not just gonna slip the fucking things on. He was gonna struggle with them and play it up for the jury and the cameras. (I would too if I had chopped off my wife's head.)

    Whatever. It wouldn't have mattered. The minute they moved the trial and got a nearly all-black jury panel, this motherfucker was decided. That was that. End of story. YOu can analyze this thing all you want, but that is what happened.. The rest was all smoke and mirrors. That is law in a nutshell.

    The guy had money to burn. In this nation of crooks and thieves, you are better off being rich and guilty than poor and innocent. At least they finally got this bastard on a robbery.

    ReplyDelete
  74. Johnnie Cockroach's trial "skills" were overrated. OJ got an acquittal because Officer Furhman tampered with the evidence. Get off the high horse about Loyola producing trial attorney mavens.

    Alan Dershowitz is a law professor, not a trial lawyer. Saying Cockroach was better than Dershowitz in a trial is not saying much. Law professors are generally not good attorneys. If they were that good, they could make more money in litigating than in teaching. Then again, the lifestyle of a law professor is better than that of an attorney. Lawyers generally work at least 60 hours a week (in private practice). Law professors may spend 4-6 hours per week in the classroom. Personally, I think law professors are grossly overpaid for their "contribution" to society.

    The whole Harvard v. Loyola debate is ridiculous. Maybe there are a handful of Loyola law grads each year that have more talent than a couple of Harvard Law grads that graduated in the bottom of the class. That is possible. But to say that Loyola is better than Harvard because they beat them at some meaniningless moot court competition is ludicrous.

    If I am a redneck on death row and didn't know any better, I would pick the Harvard educated lawyer over the Loyola one. In the final analysis, the Harvard lawyer would have gotten into Loyola easily. The converse is not true and there is a reason for that.

    ReplyDelete
  75. http://www.cochranfirm.com

    I was watching Judge Joe Brown on television andsaw a commercial for this place. Someone went off on Cochran so I wanted to share this with everyone. These guys handle PI, SSI claims and criminal defense. They are soliciting business for people who may have had defective hip implants. This is what the commercial focused on entirely. here is more detail for the recall. These ambulance chasers just want a piece of the action.

    http://www.cochranfirm.com/civil/depuy-hip-implant-recall.html

    ReplyDelete
  76. I have read and commented on this blog with mixed emotions for quite awhile and this has been the best run of comments I have read in some time calling out all sorts of bs from fake posters who claim to be hiring partners to crappy Florida to the reality of the world and the overall scam. Total truth all the way around.

    This blog would be enough to have kept me from going to law school now where as 20 years ago, I went because I simply had no other options. I hate the law. Its a joke.

    If you ignore all these posts and even manage to practice like I have for 15 plus years, the scam does not end. I have to laugh as I am posting to take a break from writing a check for the ever increasing bar dues and the bs overpriced CLE created by failed lawyers who see that lawyers can be scammed just like wanna be lawyers all while reading an email from my buddy who says he is quitting practice to become a full time mediator. A lawyer who says he is now focusing his practice on mediation is like an unemployed law grad who works at Wendy's while looking for a job. Good luck with that as you dive on to a list full of idiots who want to mediate rather then deal with the shit of practice. Wouldnt we all like to mediate at the hourly rate they all charge?

    And I have not even started on the clients that 95% of us lawyers represent. Horrible human beings.

    What a shitty profession we are in.

    ReplyDelete
  77. @ 10:08. I presented Johnnie Cochrane as support for the proposition that a person can become a SKILLED lawyer even if he didn’t attend a good school. Before OJ killed his wife Cochrane had won millions in PI verdicts as well as numerous criminal trials. He once tried a murder case and a civil case simultaneously, winning an acquittal on the murder and over a million dollar verdict on the civil case. OJ didn’t just hire any black man with a law degree. He hired the most skilled lawyer whom he could find, and it was that SKILL that got an obviously guilty man off. (BTW, black juries convict black criminals everyday, and do you really think that Fuhrman planted the gloves?).

    @ 6:13. Cochrane’s firm is prosecuting hip replacement lawsuits and this is “shitlaw”. Who is defending the hip replacement suits? A biglaw law firm. Products liability is a sophisticated practice are in which virtually all large law firms have a practice. Except for issues of Markman claim construction, I’ve found products liability litigation to be as complex as patent litigation. Both entail deconstructing expert testimony about complex technical systems.

    So is the big firm defending the hip replacement manufacturer engaged in “shitlaw”? Is it “big law shitlaw”? If the plaintiffs win the hip replacement lawsuits, has a “shitlawyer” beat a “biglawyer”? If the plaintiff's lawyer’s take on the average suit is $150,000 then 20 suits equals $2 million. There are thousands of these faulty hip replacements.

    The hip replacement plaintiffs may make more money per hour than the biglaw partners defending these. If a top plaintiffs contingency lawyer was offered a biglaw partnership defending products liability or med mal, he would probably refuse it.

    There are many cults in law. Nando has correctly identified the “0L law is prestigious and lucrative” cult. Another cult is “idealism”, whereby those foolish U. Chicago grads ruined their shot at big law and became PDs and prosecutors because it is “meaningful”. A third cult is “prestige”. Some commentators sound like their talking about dog breeding, obsessing about “pedigree”, instead of talking about how to get the skills to win cases and make money. In reality, this profession is more like cagefighting than dog breeding. It reminds me of Calvinist predetermination theology. People think that their skill as lawyers is predetermined by where they went to law school and there is nothing that they can do to change it.

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  78. I meant to write: "If the plaintiff's lawyer’s take on the average suit is $150,000 then 20 suits equals $3 million."

    ReplyDelete
  79. The last two comments have been great. What I appreciate most about Nando posting about this law school (Other than the fact that I went there) is that this is showing how the golden years of law are behind us. There has been an axial shift in the practice of law, not only in the relationships between attorneys and clients, but also between the firm and it's attorneys. Law did used to be a profession that one wanted to emulate that values that it imbued upon those who practiced it. It was a profession, not a career. It was a way of life.
    It is a way of life today, if one can call having absolutely no life and soul a way of living. Talking older practicing attorneys (Those who have been active for at least thirty years), they do lament about what has happened to the legal world.
    Schools like Loyola used to be not only places of higher learning but "Temples of Wisdom" if you will. No longer, it is simply a ponzi scheme and Dean Gold is it's Bernie Madoff

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  80. 8:02

    who the fuck is Johnnie Cochrane? We are talking about Johnnie Cochran. Yes we all know black juries convict black defendants every day. This one was not going to convict a superstar HOF running back though.

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  81. The Cochran firm is nothing more than a bunch of Jewish lawyers, mixed in with some minority lawyers, that are exploiting a dead man's name. See

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cochran_Firm

    I believe the Cochran firm commercials still use old video footage of Cochran, which I believe is a form of false advertisement. The commericals create the illusion that Johnnie is still alive and will personally work on your case. You would be surprised to know how many people do not know that Johnnie died back in 2005.

    Johnnie was a good trial attorney. Make no mistake about it. Did Loyola teach him those skills? I don't think so. Johnnie crafted his skills by working as a city attorney in the criminal division. He rose to prominence through hard work and PLENTY OF LUCK. The OJ trial was a circus. That trial was not the highlight of Cochran's career although it is the case he is most remembered for.

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  82. I concur. Cochran was a very skilled lawyer. He learned his shit in the heat of the courtroom. He made his bones in practice, no law school. Loyola is a shithole. The ad seems to be false advertising. His image is featured prominently on the website.

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  83. @ 9;34: That is a nice comment, but I don't entirely understand what you're saying. I've been out for only 12 years. I see this profession as a business where we either sell our skills at an hourly rate, flat rate, or we invest in the litigation on a contingency basis. Besides there being far more lawyers, how has the profession changed? Hasn't it always been like this?
    In smaller cases, such as criminal, where we might take $2-25k, our relationship with the prosecutor and judge is friendly and collegial, because the relationship is more valuable than the money at stake. In big contingency fee litigation, such as big PI, IP and products liability, the money at stake outweighs the value of the relationship with opposing counsel, so it get heated. Hasn't it always been this way?

    I haven't been out for 30 years so I don't know. How was it before?

    ReplyDelete
  84. Law is not a profession.

    Professions self-regulate. Do medicine and dentistry pump out licensees far in excess of what the market can possibly train and absorb in the form of post-graduation opportunities? Are graduates of these toilet bowl law "schools" able, each and every one of them who passes a bar, that is, to find real-world mentoring opportunities sufficient to draw out their talents while protecting the public? Of course not. Do real professions allow "practitioners" to hang out a shingle and even attempt to practice w/o the rigors of clinical instruction, internships and residencies? Of course not.

    Law is a gigantic steaming heap of a dungpile which MAY have been a profession at one time. It certainly is not one now. It is a sad joke. When you have law licensees out there selling donuts and unloading trucks, having never really been taught how to be a lawyer, the public sees and knows this for a fact.

    So any debate of what the "profession" is or was or whatever is silly.

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  85. @ 1:45 P.M.
    you are correct as to the current methods of doing business, i.e., that in the smaller settlements, the relationship is more valuable than the end result. It always has been a business, but before, it was more of a guilded system. I mean this in the sense that you slowly worked your way through the ranks of ONE firm, and that firm treated you like a valuable apprentice, not simply a commodity.
    When you look at the not only the legal profession, but also corporate America, the way they DESCRIBE their employees, it is eerily reminiscent to the minutes of the Wansee Conference (Where the "Final Solution" was designed). It is sad, but in America today we are as expendable as the Jews in Treblinka & Auschwitz

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  86. Oh well, trying again:

    Obviously the ABA doesn't give a flying Fuck about how many lives are being destroyed with 6 figure debt and no job prospects.

    I think a letter should be sent to the American Psychiatric Association or similar organization.

    http://www.psych.org/Footer/Contact.aspx

    It should ask that Specialists in the field of Mental Health look into these scam blogs, and form an opinion as to the devastating psychological effects fo being shackled to a lifetime of debt, with no job as well.

    With no way out, but to go flippin' out of your mind, and possibly kill oneself as the debt grows year by year with no relief in sight.

    There must be Psychological labels for the feelings of hopelessness and depression, despair, paranoia and fear that the debtor wakes up with every single morning.

    As in: What's the use of even trying anymore. I'm so deeply in debt, I'm better off dead.
    And even if the loan is discharged after 25 years, the IRS will punish me severely in my old age.


    As I say, Medical/Psychological case-studies are in order

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  87. @ 3:07

    That is what I am thinking by now too.

    History repeats itself, and the human race has a history of great cruelty.

    About 180 Law Schools will prove to be, in hindsight, the most cruel and hypocritical anti-humanity institutions ever created.

    But it is too late for us.

    We are all dead, or at least the living indebted dead, just waiting and hoping for real death, which might lead to a better afterlife, but all bets are off.

    Please kids: Do not go to law School.

    If my JD and useless 6 figure life can serve some sort of humble purpose....

    Please do not go to Law School!

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  88. I only wish a rain could come down to wash this filthy and unholy life destroying law school industry clean.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ofrqm6-LCqs

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  89. Someone mentioned medicine and dentistry regulating the number of graduates so that they can be reasonably absorbed. Even if they over produced at 35,000 grads a year instead of pumping out nearly 45,000 grads for 30,000 jobs I would not have as much of a problem. Or at least be like North Carolina Central or CUNY Queens and charge 10k a year. But this bullshit of 30-40 thousand dollars a year in tuition is unacceptable. I can not understand how the hell they get away with this, especially in the hyper-competitive markets, when they know full well that the vast majority of their graduates do not stand a chance in hell of getting a job to pay back those loans. Hell, I wish I had money to start a law school to get in on this cash cow. If the ABA can let the Dominos Pizza School of Law open or the Jerry Falwell We Hate Gays School of Law open then anything is possible.

    Anyone ever see the movie Idiocracy? It is about a future America that has become a nightmare and is full of idiots - a lawyer in the movie gets a law degree from Costco. The ABA should just let Walmart open a law school because at least their graduates can get hired on to stock shelves so they would have a nice 100% placement rate.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Speaking of Wallmart, I heard on the radio that Wallmart is and I can't remember correctly, at least in the top 5 in the world as far as being the provider of markets for the export of Chinese manufactured goods.

    Maybe #2, but I'm not sure.

    I was in a Sears and Roebuck Store last week, and I saw a woman in full Muslim dress. A pale blue outfit, with her entire body, and head and face covered, except for a bare stripe of exposed flesh that exposed the eyes.

    She was busy as all of the rest of the shoppers were, looking at the goods.

    Her husband and/or male escort was hovering nearby. I just pretended I didn't see her, but it really freaked me out.

    I was just there to buy a pair of sneakers and a few t-shirts.

    Hicksville, Long Island, New York. True Story.

    Wake up everybody.

    ReplyDelete
  91. And here is an oldie but a goodie. About How Al Lord and the worthless piece of shit people at many, many Law Schools all got rich and fucked the American public hard and but Good! and absolutely destroyed many lives and familys along with thier hopes and dreams in the process.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/16/AR2007041601541.html

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  92. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNjdalma3Qo

    ReplyDelete
  93. C- so far in Civ Pro...only grade so far. More to come.
    -Mike from St. Thomas

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  94. I'm sure no one here cares, but Loyola beat UCLA on the July 2010 bar exam.

    ReplyDelete
  95. Mike from $TTTT. TTTThoma$ Univer$iTTTTy,

    Feel free to contact me at nando9936@yahoo.com. I hope everything works out for you.

    @ 9:08 pm, you are correct. Nobody cares if Loyola Law Sewer had a higher bar passage rate than UCLA. After all, bar passage does not equal employment.

    http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=rPhUs-hzu4Q%3d&tabid=2269

    We can see that 54% of Loyola JDs passed the California bar exam for February 2010, whereas 59% of UCLA Law grads passed the exam.

    http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/rankings

    UCLA Law is still ranked 15th by US News, and Loyola is still ranked 56th best. Which school will most law firms be interested in?

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  96. You went to a third tier and yet are trying to diss a 2nd tier school? That's like the fat bitch trying to diss the promqueen dress.

    (oh wait, your the same person huh? Nevermind)

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  97. After all, bar passage does not equal employment.

    Well clearly not for you at least, BUT you do realise that without the bar pass rate you can't even apply right? (real hard, try to keep up)

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  98. I want to get it out there that there is a real sense of self-entitlement that the upper tier schools in L.A. have. Shame on you if you think you deserve anything more than 60K out the door as an attorney. I don't think most law students actually realize how messed up many immigrants are do to their ignorance of the law. Yet, most law students want to join the conveyor belt -that for many years- streamlined recent grads into jobs. How do you think they did it in the past- start ground up as an entrepreneur solo. Rankings are nice to make sure you dodge the ugly schools but c'mon, quit being little girls about it. 1st tier, 2nd tier, 3rd tier- get a life, this is one of the few professions you can do yourself. Lazy, just lazy.

    ReplyDelete
  99. To the ignorant piece of trash who posted the comments on January 21, 2011 at 10:00 and 10:02 am,

    Before I slam your head into the door, here are some things you should work on: first, don't refer to big women as "fat bitches"; second, "your" refers to possession; third, "prom queen" is two words, not one; and fourth, learn how to employ correct grammar and basic sentence structure. By the way, go up to a large woman and call her a fat bitch. Then come back here and let us know how well that turns out for you. I prefer to use the term “bitch” when addressing effeminate men with no balls and no integrity, i.e. you.

    http://www.nalp.org/forms

    For the purposes of the graduate survey, NALP counts any job - whether part-time, short-term, or non-legal - as "employment." If you work at Burger King, within 9 months of graduation, then you are counted as "employed." Do you understand that, idiot?!?! Or do I need to draw you a big diagram - with Crayola and poster-board?!

    Also, second tier law schools are a serious gamble, as well. While the blog may be titled, “Third Tier Reality,” I do address all law school diploma mills. This includes second tier sewers, third tier toilets, and fourth tier trash cans. In fact, MANY recent attorneys will tell you that several first tier law schools are diploma factories. Got that, moron?!?!

    Lastly, I found a job within two months of graduating from Third Tier Drake. Why would I walk away from a job with some perks, good benefits, and not much stress, in order to attempt a solo practice?! Try not to over-stimulate your little gray matter on that one. (Here is a hint, moron: the lawyer job market is GLUTTED.)

    “Well clearly not for you at least, BUT you do realise that without the bar pass rate you can't even apply right? (real hard, try to keep up)”

    http://www.nalp.org/uploads/NatlSummaryChartClassof09.pdf

    See the NALP Class of 2009 report above. Again, employment is NOT confined to legal jobs, Idiot. Hence, one does not need to work as an attorney - in order to be counted in the job placement rate. Does one need to pass the bar exam to wait tables, tend bar or work in the lumber department at Home Depot?!

    I am not going to give up my job in a futile pursuit, when my wife - who has a Master’s degree - is only making $11 an hour. I simply will not let some piece of garbage goad me into pissing away hundreds of hours - and thousands of dollars - to prepare me for an exam, that will not benefit me. Act like an adult. When you have a mortgage, responsibilities for others - or in your case, when you grow some pubes and a pair of balls - then you will understand the importance of putting food in the fridge and providing shelter.

    If you want me to slap you around some more, then come back without a cogent argument. I will be more than happy to make you look foolish. Although, you do a great job of accomplishing that, on your own.

    ReplyDelete
  100. I am a Loyola Law School graduate. The school was challenging, professors interesting, and my degree was well worth it. First of all, people around the world recognize the Loyola name. If someone says Hastings they will say, "Huh?". But, if someone says Loyola, they say, "Good school, Jesuits." Johnnie Cochran, Robert Shapiro, Gloria Allred, Mark Geragos...the list goes on and on of successful attorneys who attended Loyola...and...guess what, from what I have noticed, Loyola Law School graduates strongly populate the judicial bench. I did not graduate at the top of my class, but I had no problem getting hired and I now own my own law office. I paid off my $150,000 in law school loans loan ago. My law office education was well worth it. Too bad some of the people on this website are too dumb to use their degree to make money. The degree is the vehicle...after you graduate, it is all you. (...but, I love the prestige the Jesuit degree brings worldwide...)

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  101. http://ip-whois-lookup.com/lookup.php?ip=99.70.66.67

    Time Visitor Session Referrer
    Oct 18 2011 2:32pm 99.70.66.67 2 actions 10s blogger.com/comment-iframe.g
    Oct 18 2011 2:19pm 99.70.66.67 1 action 10s google.com loyola law school kidd

    How are you doing, cockroach? You claim to have paid $150K in student loans, long ago. If that is the case, then good for you, bitch. At least, your wife had plenty of fun with Pedro the gardener, while you were slaving away in the office. With your little two inch penis, Pedro saved you some work in the bedroom.

    By the way, you are delusional if you believe that people give a damn about “Jesuit prestige,” moron.

    http://abovethelaw.com/2011/02/villanova-law-school-knowingly-reported-inaccurate-information-to-the-aba/#respond

    Back in February 2011, the dean at Jesuit Dung Pit Villanova University Sewer of Law admitted that the school KNOWINGLY reported inaccurate info to the ABA.

    http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/villanova_law_dean_resigns_name_surfaces_in_prostitution_probe/

    “Villanova law dean Mark Sargent, who abruptly resigned last week, had been identified in a police report as a prostitution customer, according to a story in the Philadelphia Inquirer.

    Sargent was Villanova dean since 1987 and had written a 2004 law review article called "Lawyers in the Moral Maze," which focused on why corporate lawyers engage in behavior that violates their own ethics. An announcement of his resignation posted on Above the Law cited personal and medical reasons for stepping down. He did not respond to the Inquirer's request for comment.

    The police report alleges Sargent paid $170 for 35 minutes of sexual contact on Nov. 25, the day of the police raid, the Inquirer story says. He told police he had seen an ad on Craigslist, got curious, and responded to it, the report said. Sargent was not charged in the case.”

    What a beacon of integrity, huh?!?! Is this what you meant by “Jesuit prestige,” bitch?!?!

    If your feelings are hurt, then grow up, pussy. Also, Johnnie Cockroach is dead. He only lived to be 67. Using your logic, should we say that successful criminal defense trial lawyers die at young ages?!

    “My law office education was well worth it…The degree is the vehicle...after you graduate, it is all you.”

    So what the hell was the point of incurring $150K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt for, cretin?! You essentially took on that debt - and spent three years of your life - for a bar exam admission ticket.

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  102. This pretty much sums up my life. LLS 2007, barely making anything with $185k in law school debt. Follow these rules or you will become a PEON LIKE ME!!! Don't go to law school unless you are: (1) bored and independently wealthy already; (2) want to ruin your life; (3) got a full ride scholarship that is guaranteed; (4) got into one of the top 8 schools in the country.

    ReplyDelete
  103. I tried to post this once before, but here goes: Villanova is not a Jesuit school. It is a Catholic school, but not a Jesuit school. Thank you.

    ReplyDelete
  104. People are graduating from this stench pit with an average of $125,264 in law school debt alone - from the Class of 2009 - and YOU are concerned that someone labeled a different Catholic school as Jesuit?!?! You have misplaced priorities.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Everyone is calling Loyola Law School a Catholic school, and perhaps it is, but only technically.

      In reality, Loyola is a much Jewish as it is Catholic.

      I graduated from there some 20 years ago. The Dean was Jewish, as were many of the professors.

      During orientation, we were told the history of Loyola Law School. We were told that, decades ago, Los Angeles law schools were WASP dominated, and didn't admit Jews or Catholics. So the Jews and Catholics united and created Loyola Law School.

      We were told that Jews shouldn't feel out of place at Loyola. That some 40% of the student body was Jewish, there was a vibrant Jewish center, many professors were Jewish, etc.

      So if anyone here wants to insult the religion of the leaders of Loyola Law School (I don't), then to be honest, they'll have to insult Judaism as well as Catholicism.

      Just to be fair about it.

      Delete
  105. Loyola is a joke. The students are generally pretentious and lazy, the administration is incompetent and has an insecurity complex, and there are a number of professors who simply don't care about teaching. Plus, the school is located in a crappy part of downtown, isolated from the main campus and LMU's student body (a terrible idea given that networking is so important in this field). Avoid this joke of a school unless you are getting a significant scholarship, and be sure not to listen to the BS they try to perpetuate in order to reel you in.

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  106. thanks for share.

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  107. I am a 2005 Loyola grad. I had a gpa/lsat at the top of that listed range, but it took me a semester to "get" law school exams and I graduated right in the middle of the pack. I feel like I got lucky with my core professors, and chose well for my electives. I bought the "the debt is fine, you'll be making plenty of money in no time" line...well, hook line and sinker!

    But I was lucky. I come from a blue collar family and was the first to go to college. Because I worked in the family business, I have quite a bit of trade knowledge. After litigating (very auccessfully) for 7 years, I'm now in house counsel for a fortune 500 company.


    I agree with a lot of the advice here (and tell people exactly what you do...don't go unless top tier and someone else pays!), but if you are very targeted and bring something to the table other than just the law degree, great positions are out there.

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  108. Loyola gives you the tools to be a successful and talented lawyer - the rest is up to you. That is, you have to motivate yourself after law school, no matter what legal career you have.

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  109. I am a LLS grad, going on almost 13 years since graduation. And from a law student's perspective at a non-Tier 1 law school, I can see the author's point. No job yet, looks like no job prospects, things look bad with debt being racked up. Law students don't yet see what happens after they get a couple of jobs under their belt, at which point it's easier because job experience becomes more relevant than where their diploma was issued, I think. And law schools, at least LLS did in my experience, push the idea that getting a big firm job is vital, and don't push the idea that its students should think about opening their own office. So many solo practitioners doing PI and class actions make tons more money than I do. This article certainly brings me back to the days as a 2L/3L when things seemed bleak. Bottom line is that at a non-Tier 1 school, you have to work harder to forge your own path; you can't sit on your hands and wait for things to happen.

    ReplyDelete
  110. http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.in/2010/12/second-tier-clogged-toilet-loyola-law.html

    ReplyDelete

 
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