Sunday, December 19, 2010

Third Tier Solid Waste: Ohio Northern University Claude W. Pettit College of Law

Tuition: For the 2010-2011 academic year, a full-time student at the Ohio Northern University College of Law will be charged $30,964.

Ranking: So the price tag is a little steep. Plus, the school is located in someplace called Ada, Ohio. Surely the job prospects and school’s reputation will make up for the price and location, right?!?! Well…US News & World Report lists this pre$TTTigiou$ school in the third tier of American law schools.

Alleged Employment Rate: The commode claims a placement rate of 94%, for its Class of 2009. Sure it was - and Salma Hayek just finished massaging my neck, shoulders and back with her lovely bare breasts. (If this entry comes across as rushed, you will understand why.)

“Over the past eight years, Ohio Northern's placement rate has exceeded the national average. The class of 2009 had 94% employed full-time or enrolled in an LLM program within nine months after graduation”

[This same "Quick Facts" page notes that the 75th percentile LSAT score - for the Fall 2010 entering class - was 156; the 25 percentile test score was 149. The 75th percentile UGPA stood at 3.70 - and the 25th percentile undergrad GPA was a whopping 2.94.]

NALP reports the national placement rate for the JD Class of 2009 as 88.3 percent. This survey also includes responses from those who graduated from elite schools and first tier law schools. Yet, somehow this third tier commode asserts an employment rate nearly 6 percentage points higher than the overall job placement for 2009 law graduates.

Average Student Indebtedness: According to USN&WR, the average student indebtedness for Class of 2009 ONU Commode of Law grads who incurred law school debt was $87,230. Furthermore, 93% of this poor, unfortunate graduaTTTing class took on law school debt.

Faculty and Administrator Pay: Let’s see how well the bandits/”professors” are making out. For this information, we go to page 31 of Ohio Northern University’s 2009 Form 990. We can see that the dean of the Commode of Law, David C. Crago, made $209,299 in TOTAL COMPENSATION - for 2008. Yes, Crago made $190,154 in base compensation plus $19,145 in deferred compensation. Only the university president made more money than Crago. In fact, three of the university’s six highest-compensated employees teach at the law school.

Furthermore, Howard N. Fenton, director of the LLM program/scam and “professor of law,” made $187,746 in TOTAL COMPENSATION for the same year. Lastly, Stephen C.Veltri, associate dean for academic affairs and “professor of law,” made $170,262 for 2008.

On page 3 of the “viewbook,” the commode claims:

“Ohio Northern students are of the highest academic quality and are prepared for the legal profession by nationally recognized scholars who are committed to producing extremely skilled graduates who can compete in today’s challenging legal world.”

First, the school ADMITTEDLY accepts students with 149 LSAT scores - as well as those who graduated from college with GPAs of 2.94. Second, no employer gives a damn if you were taught by supposed “nationally recognized scholars.” Lastly, I suppose ONU Commode of Law may train its students to compete in the miserable world of document review and legal process outsourcing.

Conclusion: This school is an overpriced piece of trash located in the frozen tundra of northern Ohio. The official name of this moist turd is the Ohio Northern University, Claude W. Pettit College of Law. That name provides an apt connotation - as your job prospects will be small, i.e. petite, indeed.

In the last analysis, you will NOT be better off taking on an additional $90K-$130K - in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt - for a law degree from this in$TTTiTTTuTTTion. If you simply MUST be an attorney, attend a school that people will recognize - NOT one where people will ask if the school is accredited, i.e. Ohio Northern.


  1. Claude W Pettit?!?!?!?

    Is that THE Claude W. Pettit?

  2. Okay man. Who the fuck is Claude W. Pettit?

  3. I was hoping Nando would do a feature on this school. I remember stumbling across it during my own law school days and wondering what on earth would possess anyone to enroll here. Being absolutely dead center in the middle of nowhere was the school's main selling point, believe it or not.

    But maybe things are looking up: it use to be buried in the fourth tier. Now apparently it has move up in the world. Of course, that just may be a reflection of how new law schools have mushroomed in the past ten years, pushing this piece of filth that much closer to the sun.


  4. You can even get a joint JD/LLM in ONU's highly prestttigious Democratic Governance and Rule of Law program.

    "In my country, we keep citizens under our thumbs. But, enough about Sallie Mae."

  5. The question now is whether there's a George Voinovich Distinguished Chair in Democratic Governance and Rule of Law program? Honestly, man. What can you do with an LLM in this shit?

  6. Now what's really sad OTHER professions, it matters not a whit where one goes to school.

    Once licensed, and you got them letters after your name, you got it goin' on. Professions whee there is NO SUCH THING as degree-granting institutions which get openly scorned like this. No such thing as "tiers". Nuh-uh.

    When, and where, did law get so off track?

  7. Saludos amigos,

    Mi hijo ingreso a esta porqueria de universidad de derecho y ahora es mesero en un restaurante Mexicano en La Jolla. Estos hijos de putas lo estafaron y le robaron los sueños de ser licenciado en abogacia. Aunque mi Ingles es un poco pobre, yo entendi esta entrada y veo que usted puso un vinculo electronico a ese ojos de culebra que tiene peor morales que una serpiente maldito. Dios va a castigar a esta plaga que esta sentenciando a la juventud de hoy en dia a la deuda estudiantil.

    Att. Jorge Rojas

  8. Nando, is Capital University Law School a.k.a. "Crapital" next on your law school (s)hit list?

  9. Can someone smarter than me explain why Ohio needs other law schools besides Ohio State and maybe Cincinnati?

  10. So many toilets. Is there some sort of ABA requirement that these fucking TTTs and TTTTs must charge >$30K in yearly tuition? I was going over this site the other day, and I noticed that pretty much every piece of shit covered by this blog charged more than this amount.

  11. still waiting for the Fordham Law post...

  12. I talked to a friend a while back about the job market. He went to Ohio State for ls back in 1999 or 2000. There are 9 or 10 law school in Ohio.

    Anyway, this guy got a nice minority scholarship to go there. He worked his ass off, and now makes less money than he did prior to law school. (He worked for the Catholic Diocese and made very good money, and had a nice home furnished in an exlusive neighborhood. The church owned the home, but he lived there for free. He also had access to the bishop's palatial home, home theatre, swimming pools, impressive full bar, and luxury cars.) I know it's not all about money, but this guy is not even working in law. Talking to him, it's clear that he went to ls so he could, you know, practice law.

    This friend of mine went to the best ls in the state, bar none. It goes to show that those unconnected have little chance of cracking into the field.

  13. I remember one of my old professors telling me that Ohio Northern Law had a lot of problems, financial and otherwise. Can't remember at all how the discussion came up about this school, but I nevertheless agree with the other posters that Ohio doesn't need this many law schools. Keep OSU, Cincy and Case Western. Nando - have you ever done Cleveland State Univ.? You should - another Ohio dump.

  14. Nando - please post a link on your webpage to all the TTTs you have reviewed with links to their review for easy access to new readers. Btw this will also help with your SEO.

  15. My Legal Writing instructor was a ONU Alum. She graduated top of her class back in the 1980s. One day, she commented it took her over a year to find a job after graduating. Hell! a year searching in the 1980s, that's like three years now. After a year in shitlaw, the 1980s version, she went to JAG. She later taught in UVa and my school.

    ONU, for the geographically challenged, is near to Toledo, Detroit, Columbus, Dayton, and Indianapolis. If you stretch it Cleveland and Cincinnati. None of these areas needs their graduates. But surprisingly, it is one of the older law schools. So, it maybe a TTT but it is an older school and not part of the modern problem.

  16. To 7:34 am,

    Kimber, at “Shilling Me Softly,” has listed the toilets I have covered. I am not sure it is current. However, I will provide a link to that feature of the “Down by Law” website. Others have urged me to provide a listing on the right-hand side of my blog.

    However, I would prefer to put it on the left-hand side – so that it would be instantly seen by readers. (The right side already contains many links and icons.) I admit that I am not sure how to do so, without changing the design of this page. Perhaps someone can email me at and walk me through the process. I would appreciate that very much.

    @ 7:46 pm and 10:19 pm,

    I have about two dozen requests. I try to get to them, but then some commode gains my attention and I post about that first. If you notice, I want to reach as many toilets of law that I can. However, I also want the entries to be high-quality. This is why I do not post every day. Plus, these festering cess pools deserve to be featured for a few days – or a full week, in egregious cases.

    By the way, “Jorge Rojas” notes that “[His] son went to this filth of a law school and is now a waiter in a Mexican restaurant in La Jolla. These sons of bitches swindled him and robbed him of his dream to be a licensed attorney. Although my English is a little poor, I understand this entry and see that you provided an electronic link to that “snake-eyes,” who has worse morals than a damned snake. God is going to punish this plague that is sentencing today’s youth to student debt.”

    @ Jorge,

    Lo siento sobre su situacion, senor. Estas escuelas de ley – y “los profesores” – no tienen dignidad o decencia. Gracias por sus comentarios. ?Quien es “ojos de culebra”? Steven C. Veltri parece ser un sospechoso.

    We can see that this entry has attracted the attention of the school. The host name is The law school is a third tier trash can. It charges students $30,964 in tuition – for a single year of tuition – for a TTT degree. That is disgraceful and shameful conduct. The commode further states that 94% of its 2009 graduating class was employed within nine months of graduation. How many of those “employed” JDs are working as bouncers and temporary research assistants?!?!

  17. “Ohio Northern students are of the highest academic quality and are prepared for the legal profession by nationally recognized scholars who are committed to producing extremely skilled graduates who can compete in today’s challenging legal world.”

    Nando, a good feature to add to your analysis of these dumps would be a breakdown of the percentage of their tenure-track faculty who are "nationally recognized" alumni of their own school.

  18. So, I just took the LSAT and am waiting for my score. I was practice testing in the 160 range. That should be good enough to get me in a decent 2nd tier school. Good thing, because these third tier ones sound awful.


  19. Ted, many of the second and first tier law schools are pieces of shit, too. Don't let the designation of TT, TTT or TTTT fool you. Kids are graduating from top ten schools without lawyer jobs. It is not too late to change direction and do something else for a living.

  20. This school should be shuttered. The grads have no shot of cracking into Biglaw. many will walk away with $100K in student loans.

    What is the point of saddling JDs with that much debt when many will not be practicing law?

    Can someone from the school chime in on this. The author has pointed out that the school is checking out the article. You might as well speak.

  21. No way they want to stop this never-ending gravy train whereby, essentially, taxpayer-backed funds are used to propel innocent, unsuspecting children who THINK they want to be attorneys into the sordid and disappointing world of non-elite law school.

    It is a prized gig: law school costs NOTHING to conduct. Unlike REAL professions, no expensive labaratories, equipment or clinical accesses and accomodations. Just "professors" hanging on to a cushy job "teaching" 200-year-old uselsss crap to kids who subsequently won't know how to close the sale of a residence or represent a misdemeanant.

    The Ultimate Scam.

  22. To Ted with the 160:

    These rankings DON'T matter unless you are at the truly elite schools. People make stupid as decisions based on USNWR. If you live in a small state go to the public school, don't go to Hofstra because it is ranked higher. If you absolutely MUST go to law school than go to a cheap state school on a scholarship in a low cost area. You can't manage 100k plus in debt without an elite firm job or government work. Elite firms don't need people from T2 schools and tons of the states are screwed for hiring. Again if you MUST go to law school attempt to go for as cheaply as possible.

  23. Estimado Don Nando:

    Gracias por sus palabras. En realidad es mi hijo que sufre la infamia e vergüenza de haber ingresado a este mierdero de instituto. A referente a ese ojos de culebra, yo lo conoci el dia del grado de mi hijo. Ese hijo de puta tiene un ojo de vidrio porque yo creo que ni alma tiene esa bestia salvaje disfrazado como profesor. Toda esa facultad de esa pocilga de universidad de derecho van a ir al infierno.

    Por ultimo, le agradezco que exponga a esta clase de universidad por el inodoro que es.

    Att. Jorge Rojas

    Aqui le envio en vinculo electronico a una imagen que describe lo que hacen estos desgraciados a la juventud de hoy.

  24. Theimage in the link is disgusting. That image will haunt my dreams. (skin crawling)

  25. Nando, since I believe all these numbers are completely legit, you seem to have a nice stable of women giving you massages and other such services. Do Selma Hayek and Lauren Graham get along? I could see some friction there, but kudos to you, my friend, if you get them to get along long enough to double-team you.

    Is there ANY "directional" law school that's worth going to? I can't think of one. I'm exempting schools like North Carolina, where it's the state name, but it seems to me that if your school name starts with Eastern, Northern, Western, or Southern, it's like a stamp of inferiority. I guess USC might be the exception.

  26. “Jorge Rojas” writes,

    “Esteemed Mr. Nando:

    Thanks for your words. In reality, it is my son who suffers the infamy and shame of having gone to this vile institute. Regarding that snake-eyes, I knew the guy who graded my son. That son of a bitch has a glass eye, because I believe that the wild animal disguised as a professor has no soul. All faculty of that pigsty law school are going to go to hell.

    Finally, I thank you for exposing this law school as the toilet that it is.

    In this link, there is an image that describes what these wretches/swine are doing to the youth of today.”

    De nada, Jorge. Debemos cerrar estos basureros. Por supuesto, los banqueros/puercos sucios y "los educadores" no saldrán estos centros de ganancia. Gracias por la imagen, senor.

    As we can see, this April 2008 article points out a fundamental truth about law school:

    “US News Rankings. Reputation rules the day. The quality of law faculties, student bodies and, as we law librarians like to think, law libraries matters. OK, two out of the three really matter; online access to information resources is becoming the great law library leveler for all but major research law libraries (read OSU in Ohio).

    Of the nine Ohio law schools, only Case Western, Cincinnati and OSU are ranked in the US News Top 100.”

    Out of the nine Ohio law schools, only three are ranked in the top 100. That was the case in 2008, and it is the case today. In fact, the charts - in the article above – show that nothing has changed since 2000.

    Out of the schools on this list, Ohio State is ranked highest at number 34. Case Western Reserve and University of Cincinnati are tied – at 56th greatest, most astounding law school in the land. Cleveland State, Ohio Northern, University of Akron, and University of Toledo are all in the third tier. Capital University and Dayton are in FOURTH TIER wasteland. Out of the nine law schools, only ONE is ranked in the top 50 schools.

  27. December 20, 2010 8:00 PM

    As advice to Ted, very well said.

  28. so wait....

    law school is expensive and there are not a lot of jobs out there?

    stop the presses!!! this guy is on to something huge!!!

    maybe if he had done his research BEFORE going to law school, he wouldn't need to spend so much time whining about it now...

  29. Let's make sure no-one gives Nando a gun for christmas. Or Chanukah. Etc. He seems pretty upset that Universities trolling for grad students want to keep tuitions high and enrollment higher!

  30. A lot of people say that MBA's are a dime a dozen, and there are many bs programs out there..

    Like Law you have go to a top 20 school to get a good job, however, I make good money and I went to a non elite MBA school.

    I got my BA in Business-Legal Studies and also did a stint as a paralegal. I learned that the legal profession was not for me and then I got my MBA from a well respected school in the bay area ( Santa Clara University)

    Now, I make good money in a job that I love. I also started a business on the side that I do on the weekends. It brings in an extra 2k a month and it helps me with student loans.

    A lot of people use the MBA vs. JD argument, but an MBA is better IMHO because in the end, the MBA students are studying BUSINESS and you will at least have some understanding of how to own, run and operate a business.

    You learn more practical skills in an MBA! Law school is a different ball game.

    Reading old cases and talking like Socrates won't teach you how to make a mint on the internet, and it won't get you a lot of dates either...

  31. "so wait....

    law school is expensive and there are not a lot of jobs out there?

    stop the presses!!! this guy is on to something huge!!!

    maybe if he had done his research BEFORE going to law school, he wouldn't need to spend so much time whining about it now..."

    December 21, 2010 12:54 PM


  32. Thanks to this blog, I now know that law school is expensive and that today's job market is stagnate.

    Thank you Nando. You are providing a real service here.

  33. To the cockroach/piece of trash who posted at 12:54 and 12:58 pm,

    I received a full-tuition scholarship to attend law school. I told my wife and family BEFOREHAND that I would only go to law school if I received such an offer. I also did not expect Biglaw. With my wife working full-time, and I working in the summers, we never made more than $36K a year during the time I was at Third Tier Drake.

    We were frugal, and both owned older vehicles that ran well. We lived in a two bedroom apartment for $650 a month, dumbass. After three years of law school, I only accumulated another $37K in student debt. YOU need to get your facts straight BEFORE you sound off, moron.

    By the way, the First Amendment gives me the absolute right to criticize the higher education $y$tem, the law school cartel, and the student loan banksters. Paying back my students loans - and I pay extra, when I can - gives me further motivation to highlight the systemic problems of the job market, you ignorant bitch.

    Now that I am done beating your ass down and slamming your head with a car door, I will move onto some basic facts:

    1. There are too many law schools pumping out too many graduates.
    2. Tuition has skyrocketed in the last 30 years - at state and private law schools.
    3. The attorney job market is glutted.
    4. Biglaw firms are relying more than ever on outsourcing legal discovery to LPOs and contract attorney temp hags; they are doing so as a “cost-cutting” measure.
    5. Lemmings are continuing to jump over the cliff, in the false belief that they are exceptional.
    6. Many of these lemmings can get into law school, as many of these diploma mills are happy to take in kids with 149 LSATs and 2.9 GPAs - and charge them $30K+ in tuition.

    Even “law professors” understand these realities. For some reason, you are too dense to recognize the situation. Grow a pair of balls, a brain stem, and a backbone, cockroach.

  34. @ 2:35 re MBA v. JD, I'm not sure that I agree with you.

    If its between an elite JD v. an elite MBA. Definitely get the elite MBA! The best lawyers on Earth, who work at places like Cravath, are merely people who prepare paperwork for I bankers, VCs, hedge funders and other financiers. The financiers, with elite MBAs, crunch numbers and make the investment decisions then snap their fingers for elite lawyers to prepare the papers for them.

    If it's between a non-elite MBA v. a non-elite JD, I'd go with the JD! I-banks, private equity firms and management consultancies do not recognize non-elite MBAs just as biglaw doesn't recognize non-elite JDs. But an ambitious entreprenuer with a law license can make a fortune hustling, mill type case, PI, medical malpractice, class actions, etc. The non-elite MBA will just get a salary job somewhere.

    You are right that MBA school teaches the most important things while law school teaches FUCKING NOTHING. The most frustrating thing about law school is that they waste your time, money and attention on bullshit while other students are actually learning real knowledge. In my spare time, I read books on finance and investment for my own benefit. A JD graduate must at some point teach himself to practice law (law schools teach nothing)so why not teach yourself business as well. The JD is merely a prerequisite to getting a law license.

  35. That is a pretty good summation of the law school experience, 4:59. It is.

  36. To follow up on my 4:59 post.

    I think MBA school actually teaches more substantive law than law school does. In my undergrad business law class, we had a TEXTBOOK which succintly explained the blackletter law covering 99% of contracts, tax, corporations, civil litigation, constitutional law, etc. Law school wastes years on Socratic-casebook bullshit and probably teaches less substantive law than a few MBA business law TEXTBOOKS.

    But having a law license is lucrative and nice; once you take a few years to actually TEACH YOURSELF how to practice law and how to run a business.

  37. General Patton said:

    “I don’t want to get any messages saying, “I am holding my position.” We are not holding a god-damned thing. Let the Germans do that. We are advancing constantly and we are not interested in holding onto anything, except the enemy’s balls. We are going to twist his balls and kick the living shit out of him all of the time. Our basic plan of operation is to advance and to keep on advancing regardless of whether we have to go over, under, or through the enemy. We are going to go through him like crap through a goose; like shit through a tin horn!”

    Nando definitely beat the shit out of defenders.

  38. Well, while I am not the government, and never articulated that you could't have your little blog here, it's interesting how a Drake Law School graduate used the first amendment incorrectly in defending his position on his "right" to have this little critique blog. Does the first amendment entitle you to slander as well?

    It's interesting that your disgust for our higher education system as it pertains to law comes through a facade and a fake name. Did Drake Law school teach you that too? Nothing says "credibility" by hiding behind an internet nom de plume.

    Cockroach and Piece of Trash were merely articulating your grasp on the situation:
    * The Economy Sucks
    * Universities bend statistics as marketing ploys
    * The Job Market is stagnate

    Guess what Nando, Tide really doesn't get out ALL stains...

  39. @6:53 - it's not really a nom de plume, and Nando's full name is readily available to anyone who looks (he's done interviews with law publications under his full name). There's no real "facade" here if you checked your facts.

    With regards to the 1st amendment, Nando said this:

    "By the way, the First Amendment gives me the absolute right to criticize the higher education $y$tem, the law school cartel, and the student loan banksters."

    He did not claim he had a right to slander (while we're being technical to a fault, anything here would be "libel"), only that he has a right criticize the system. He's entirely correct in what he said. Does his right extend to a right against Blogger to keep this space? Of course not, but that isn't what he said.

    And this blog - and others - generally has little to do with "the economy sucks" and "the job market is stagnate." If you actually took the time to research and understand what you were critiquing, maybe you would have seen that. And it goes beyond merely the universities bending their statistics.

    That's 3 counts your wrong on in little more than 3 paragraphs. And you posted anonymously while falsely accusing someone else of being anonymous. I give you a 9.3/10 in FAIL, easily the highest score I've seen today.

  40. Learn to spell, idiot. The job market is STAGNANT.

    There were 44,000 graduates for the JD Class of 2009. These people were competing for 28,901 jobs requiring a law degree, i.e. not all of these openings were attorney positions.

    Go to page 2 of this document, under Source of Job, moron. Out of the 28,730 jobs, here is the breakdown – as provided by NALP:

    Fall OCI accounted for 6,709 jobs; 656 were the result of job fairs/consortia; 4,012 found employment through job postings; 726 from commercial internet sites; “other” accounted for 2,156 jobs; 2,198 law graduates RETURNED TO THEIR PRIOR JOB; 4,338 people found jobs from referrals; 1,385 desperate souls STARTED OWN PRACTICE; SELF-INITIATED/LETTERS resulted in 5,887 jobs; Spring OCI provided 375 people with employment; and temp agencies provided 288 positions.

    Go to the bottom of page 2, under the heading “Job Characteristics by Employer Type.” NEARLY 1/4 of all jobs are listed as TEMPORARY, i.e. short-term. Yes, you read that correctly; fully 24.9% of employed JDs from this particular class found temporary employment. What does that say about the market?!?! You can also see that 10.3 percent of all jobs were part-time.

    As far as credibility is concerned, this blog has been cited in Wall Street Journal, ABA Journal, National Law Journal,, Slate, etc. This site has also received favorable recognition from “law professors.”

    “Gordon Hylton on July 30, 2010 9:24 pm

    For a thought-provoking (and sobering) blog devoted to the realities of legal education in the 21st century, one should check out Third Tier Reality”

    “Read the posts and the comments. These sites are proliferating, with thousands of hits.

    Look past the occasional vulgarity and disgusting pictures. Don’t dismiss the posters as whiners. To a person they accept responsibility for their poor decisions. But they make a strong case that something is deeply wrong with law schools.”

    I am happy to discuss this topic in-depth. However, my patience wears thin when dealing with ignoramuses and idiots such as you, 6:53 am. You come on to this site, telling me that I am whining and saying that no one should buy me a gun for Christmas, and you want me to treat you like an adult?!?! Respect has to be earned, bitch. You have fallen far short of that standard. In sum, you have SHOWN – via your actions and blatant ignorance - that you are not worthy of one iota of respect.

  41. As someone who is NOT "6:53 am," I would say that you pretty much fall into the stereotypical ranting-type blogs we see so much of today.
    Perhaps the subject is different, but the style is pretty much the same.

    I'm sorry if you take offense to the accusation of you sounding like a whiner, and perhaps in the name of entertaining writing this appearance is much greater than the reality, but to me, it is what it sounds like.

    Your general theme of not taking out excessive debt or working too diligently to accomplish a degree without a very firm understanding of the actual and real benefits seems pretty elementary. In addition, the suspicion that someone selling you something may inflate statistics in order to make their product more appealing is equally elementary.

    I suppose you believe you are providing a public service through your blog, and while I do not entirely disagree with your sentiment, I would hope your conclusions would be obvious to anyone who is investigating a law career.

    Maybe you just have a lot of free time and enjoy rallying against what you find is an injustice in our society. Maybe you feel duped. In all reality, maybe you just found a niche where you can carve a name for yourself and further your career by inflammatory blogging.

    In my opinion though, it is pretty much the same as Perez Hilton's blog.

    Does he get cited a lot? Is he somewhat of a celebrity?


    If that's what you’re going for, congratulations!

    You are the Perez Hilton of Law School blogging.

    Good job.

  42. nando at 420 etc, you seem to be a bit angry yet you talk like you fully researched the choice of going to law school and only went because you got a scholarship.

    Hey thats great but I guess it only makes you half a fool. I mean what kind of idiot criticizes people for paying to go to law school and atleast trying to find a job and failing after seeing others around them occasionally succeed and get rich versus your approach to go for free, accumulate minimal debt, give up 3 years of working full time in a non law job to atleast attempt advance your non law career while allowing the wife to make most of the money so you can graduate from school and not even bother trying to pass the bar to see if you can then find a job and develop a practice that could become lucrative? I guess you cant fully fail if you dont fully try right? Im mean its not like you dropped out after one semester and admitting a mistake, you went for the whole three years and then quit at the end. Its like training to run a marathon and then quitting at mile 25 and then criticizing others who try and train for one yet fail to ever finish it.

    Many professions require years of slow to no income before money can be made. The upside of law is supposed to make the loans worth it. Is it a risk? sure. Is it a longer journey? Yes. Do many fail? Definitely. Change law with most any profession and that is true. The risk is just higher because of the loans but again so is the potential reward.

    I think the message of this blog is legitimate and important but its coming from the wrong messenger and that is probably why many call you out.

    It has nothing to do with being worthy or not worthy of respect.

  43. What problem do ANY of the above posters have with someone who merely points out to naive pre-laws the very real potential downsides to pursuing the festering, overcrowded, nasty "profession" of law, as this and other scamblogs do?

    What interest in the law school industrial complex do you have, what dog in this fight, to have any problem whatsoever, with a blog that just points out these very real negatives? I don't get it. Is it, perhaps, the fact that you yourselves don't like to be reminded of the fact YOU made shitty career choices by choosing law? In addition, as ostensibly successful practitioners and practitioners-to-be, how the hell do any of YOU have the time, let alone the inclination, to even bother with posting on a bitter-ass scamblog? Aren't you guys busy with your bustling law practices, clerkships, etc? Perhaps you resent in fact of having your own versions of buyer's remorse triggered by the observations of this and the other scamblogs. Otherwise, you would, and should, if law is that great a gig, just be too damned busy and self-satisfied to even bother posting here, I would think.

  44. To the brain-dead trematode at 10:35,

    “I think the message of this blog is legitimate and important but its coming from the wrong messenger and that is probably why many call you out.”

    Have you noticed than in over 16 months not a single person has been able to make a constructive, valid argument as to why law school is a wise investment?! I give the law school apologists plenty of opportunities to state their case, but the mentally deficient choose to go with, “You’re a bitter loser.”

    Do you see how a group of people might be upset when they follow the path to success, i.e. “Education is THE key to your future,” and they end up with tons of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt and no job prospects?!?! This site is designed to get information into the hands of prospective law students. Why do YOU have a problem with that? After all, you state that you want students to diligently research the facts, before going to law school.

    I understand that life is full of surprises and unexpected twists. However, that is no excuse for law schools furnishing misleading and fraudulent employment and starting salary data. They do so, in an effort to attract more lemmings. In the last analysis, the law schools do not care what happens to their graduates. Remember, the law school pigs get paid up front, in full, whether their grads are working in Biglaw, legal aid, or K-Mart. They get paid nice salaries even when their JDs are unemployed.

    Conversely, do you see medical students losing sleep if they do not land in the top 10% of their class? Do you see dental students lamenting the fact that they did not get into the top 2 or 3 dental schools? Those are REAL professions, i.e. they seek to limit the number of students and graduates, so that they do not flood the job market.

    This is the listing of those applicants who passed the July 2010 Iowa bar exam. MANY of the people on that list are still unemployed. That is a fact. Remember, bar passage DOES NOT necessarily equal employment, Dumbass. I would rather use the $3,250 it would take – plus the hundreds/thousands of hours of rehashing pointless legal doctrine – and use it to pay bills, moron. Plus, I can use that time for enjoyable pursuits, i.e. having sex with my wife, reading books, exercising, smashing the law school cartel over the head, etc.

    Some people have their priorities straight. It would irresponsible of me, as the primary wage-earner, to throw another $3,250 down the rat-hole. Furthermore, I am not going to let some troll/cockroach goad me into pissing that money away. I was fortunate to land a decent non-law job that offered good benefits. I also do not need to worry about some client calling me at 2 am.

    Furthermore, should I take some time off work, so that my wife – with her $12.50 job at 30 hours a week – can support the household again?!?! You seriously need to grow a brain stem, if you think or believe that is the smart move.

  45. @ Rob/10:19

    Until just now, I had never seen “Perez Hilton.” However, after looking at that filth for 5 seconds, I can tell you that this blog is nothing like that site, Stupid. (For instance, do you see “educators” telling people that celebrity tabloids are thought-provoking and sobering?) That site is devoted to mindless celebrity “news” and gossip. TTR is based on facts, figures, charts, and industry statements. I do not give one damn about Hollywood chatter. Hence, my site does not concern itself with pointless blather. Learn to distinguish between these polar opposites, borderline retard. (If your diminished mental capacity is due to mommy dropping you on your head as a child, then I apologize.)

    Also, I accept the consequences of my decision to go to law school. I make monthly payments on that mistake, and will likely do so for the next 15-20 years. Maybe you should ask the “law professors” and administrators to take some responsibility for fudging the numbers. That would require some testicular fortitude, however. You don’t have any.

    To wit:

    “In addition, the suspicion that someone selling you something may inflate statistics in order to make their product more appealing is equally elementary.”

    You do not even grasp that these are supposed “institutions of higher learning.” They exist largely on the federal teat. But that’s okay, right?!?! These “non-profits” want to make a profit, after all. These are not vacuum salesmen, moron. Get that through your thick skull.

  46. Nando...

    You certainly like to use vivid imagery and "witty" insults in an attempt to make you seem of superior intelligence and judgement.

    And in that way, you are exactly the same as Mr. Hilton.


    As I said, the only difference is your subject matter.

    You can use your recycled insults all you want! I'm sure many people find them funny!

    I'm just stating my opinion that your style is unoriginal, and while it may attract some attention, you ultimately lose a degree of respectability when you choose to communicate your ideals through vulgarity that you probably believe is witty.

    It's not.

    As far as judging the numbers...

    You attacked ONU's statistics as being obviously false, yet you didn't seem to provide any evidence that they in fact so.

    True, they appear very inflated! They probably are!

    But you failed to make any argument other than they appear to be fudged.

    Appearance if impropriety is not proof of it.

    Show some actual proof, and you may actually succeed at proving your point intelligently.

    Like it or not, you really are nothing more than a blogger who thinks his brand of wit is actually original.

    It's not.

  47. "I'm just stating my opinion that your style is unoriginal, and while it may attract some attention, you ultimately lose a degree of respectability when you choose to communicate your ideals through vulgarity that you probably believe is witty."

    1:07 PM, you may understand law, but do your understanding of media messaging is embarrassing. This site is both vulgar and intelligent. The vulgarity grabs attention, the intelligence changes minds. You are a simpleton who thinks that vulgarity and intelligence are mutually exclusive.

    Let me assure you that the vulgarity on this site has helped it reach and save more 0L's than a polite site that would not offend your delicate sensibilities. So while you may be offended, I would argue that the vulgarity has helped to save thousands from falling prey to the law school industry and throwing their lives away.

  48. 11:50, I hope you are not implying that the guy is part of the law school scam. He can barely string two sentences together. He cannot be a professor. Probably just some kid who had his feelings hurt by nando.

    If he doesn't like the blog he can go elsewhere. Last I checked there were literally millions of blogs out there.

    If you feel that law school is a good choice then go. Ignore the facts. Have fun while you're there. Just don't say you weren't warned when you come out with $100,000 in loans amd no way to pay them.

    This blog is simply trying to stop people from committing financial suicide. What a terrible human. Why can't he be more like those selfish con men known as law deans and professors.


    Nando, please do a write up on this puff piece which is both misleading and obviously designed to dupe people into attending CreighTTTon Law $$$$$chool.


    We can see that this troll is checking in from New Philadelphia, OH.

    Time Visitor Session
    Dec 22 2010 12:52pm 6 actions 57m 19s
    Dec 22 2010 11:38am 4 actions 42m 54s
    Dec 22 2010 10:46am 3 actions 24m 52s
    Dec 22 2010 10:19am 2 actions 11m 20s
    Dec 22 2010 9:56am 1 action 11m 1s
    Dec 22 2010 9:42am 1 action 2m 40s
    Dec 21 2010 12:36pm 5 actions 46m 13s

    In a span of 25 hours and 13 minutes, this guy spent a total of 3 hours, 15 minutes and 19 seconds on this site. In these seven visits, he managed to make 22 actions.

    @ Rob/“Anonymous”

    How do you have so much free time to post the asinine comments at 12:54 pm and 12:58 pm on 12-21 2010 – plus the foolish nonsense at 10:19 am (as “Rob”), 10:35 am, and 1:07 pm on 12-22-2010?!?! Perhaps, you stop by here when you are not visiting Perez Hilton?

    Did you attend any of these prestigious “universities”?

    Look at this LSN profile. This female was waitlisted at the Ohio NorTTThern UNiver$iTTTy Commode of Law, but waitlisted and finally accepted to University of Kansas. The idiot graduated with a 3.04 UGPA, while majoring in History. She then earned a 153 on the LSAT. As you can see, she did not receive many scholarship offers. By the way, what type of sick person applies to TWENTY-ONE law schools?!?!

    Here is some more $elf-$erving garbage from ONU Commode of Law. Bar passage does not necessarily equal employment, does it? Sadly, lemmings will see this and think that their future is set. Too bad, they will be tied down with $110K in debt. How hard could it be to pay that off, when you are making $35K upon graduation?!?!

  51. Nando! You're a goddamn genius of internet deduction!!!!
    Unfortunately, tracking IP addresses is rarely as fruitful as it may appear...i'm nowhere near New Phili.

    And did I spend that much time on your site? HOURS and HOURS just "trolling" around?

    Perhaps I just had my browser open with a tab on this page, knowing that if and when I got bored I'd check back to see what sort of crybaby wannabe-intellectual response you had posted, because it's a boring day and I needed to be entertained by something.

    Of course, you say you are trying to help people, while also referring to them as "lemmings."

    Well, dear sir, you're the one who went to a crappy law school and now do not work in the law profession.

    Are you trying to help innocent people from being scammed, or are you just trying to point out the folly of those who got suckered?

    Of course, you fall into this category too.

    Perhaps you should sign your name "Nando Lemming."

  52. As a final thought...

    I must give props where props are due. You could easily have just deleted these posts, but you didn't.

    Honestly though, as someone who got an MBA through one of the top schools in Ohio (OK, not the GREATEST pedigree) that was paid for by his company, I do not understand how your basic principles of not accumulating too much debt to receive a degree that may not pan out as something more than common sense.

    Perhaps the hoards of those following this path is proof that it is not.

    Unfortunately, I am not a fan of claiming to be a victim when the information seems so plain.

    That does not excuse those who may prey upon this lack of foresight, but it certainly does not excuse the lack of diligence in determining the soundness of a six figure investment.

    But that's just me...

  53. ^Didn't the guy already admit he made the mistake of going to LS? He also said something about paying for his mistake every month. That seems to have gone through you.

    What stake do you have in this? Is your parent a teacher in one of these dumps?

    The schools cheat and lie. You admitted this even.

    So someone is bitter but the message is still true. You responded (or at least it seems that it was you) and said the message is legit.

    What is the disagreement again? Oh, yeah. He's not nice and polite or friendly. Because all 'good Americans' are good, nice little clones. And they should all think the same. I forget that. Thanks for reminding me of that.

    Now I'm sorry that nando has smacked you around like a $2 ho' today. But you did ask for it.

  54. hey Nando! I haven't been on here in a while but glad I did. I was reading your last two reviews and I was accepted to both Ohio Northern and to Dayton. Yes my LSAT sucked! I was actually working for an attorney at the time I was accepted and he turned me onto this site. So glad he did because it really did influence my decision. As much as I wanted to go to law school, I really didn't want to spend 200,000 plus in loans to attend. But I am a firm believer that everything happens for a reason cuz I landed a paralegal position at a very good firm where I live and absolutely love it!

    I've always wondered if you would do a profile on WVU. I live in WV and if you want to practice in WV, WVU is the way to go esp if you are instate. But I've always been curious as to what you would write about em.

  55. Dear law school industry,

    Please read 5:54's post. You just lost another lemming. The word is getting out. Your system can't be sustained forever.

    With Love,

    Disgruntled 3L

  56. He who saves one life has performed His will.

    Nice job spreading the word, and thank God the student at 5:54 had the intelligence to take heed of this site and the attorney he worked for.

  57. The law school debt is the story of my adult life.

    I owe 300K.

    Please, if any young 20 somethings are contemplating law school and reading this:

    Please don't throw away your life with massive student loan debt like I did.

    Heed the guidelines Nando has posted. If you do not fit within tohise guidelines don't go to law School.

    A JD will only harm you in a search for a non-legal job.

    I know this message is redundant, but it is worth repeating over and over.

  58. Estimado Don Nando:

    He leido otras entradas que usted escribio anteriormente. Estoy aterrado que en Estados Unidos existe una mafia legal donde las universidades cobran caro o le que se le den la gana por un titulo de bachiller. Por ejemplo, yo tengo un sobrino que estudia en Bard College. La pension annual es casi USD$60,0000.00. Por un titulo bachiller en estudios liberales? Y esos hijos de putas de su Congreso estan encamados con los bancos porque segun he leido esas deudas estudiantiles son garantizadas por el gobierno. Desde que sigan garantizadas esos prestamos estudiantiles, las universidades van a seguir cobrando mas cada año. Eso si es un esquema criminal y inmoral.

    Tambien lei la critica de Roberto. Ese tipo me parece tener la mentalidad de un feto ambulante. Me parece que es un tipo necio que no admite que cometio un error o que fue victima de estos mierderos de institutos.

    Don Nando, ojala usted use la imagen que le mande anteriormente en una entrada del futuro.

    Att. Jorge Rojas

  59. Happy Holidays to all, including scamblog participants, enthusiasts, posters, bloggers, the embittered, the future lemmings, the walking wounded victimized by endless debt from these "schools", former lawyers/law grads/law students who left this sordid and festeringly overcrowded field, shills, trolls and apologists too, and all others happening by.

    And to all a good night.

  60. @1:07AM:

    You accuse Nando of not backing up his argument that ONU is fudging its employment statistics. Nando provides the evidence in spades. Just exactly what part of:

    There were 44,000 graduates for the JD Class of 2009. These people were competing for 28,901 jobs requiring a law degree, i.e. not all of these openings were attorney positions.

    fails to penetrate that sack of hammers you are trying to pass off as a brain.

    Oh, I get it: legal employers across the country are abandoning grads of T14, many of whom are begging for a job, any job, making a beeline for Ada, Ohio and falling all over themselves to hire the legal eagles who permeate the entire graduating class of ONU. That 94% employment claim makes so much more sense now.


  61. lnh88 got owned so hard by nando. lol

  62. i just noticed that lnh88 applied to Cooley LS. LOLLL

  63. Law school is an expensive waste of time. They should eliminate law school and let people that pass the Bar go straight to practicing law or trying to make a go of it. The job market sucks so bad, and law school teaches nothing.

    I have nothing but disgust for law school faculty, US News, and the ABA. This is a messed up profession.

    Graduate of #15 ranked law school

  64. Did anyone else notice this tidbit on lnh88 person's profile:

    "I got a call today (the day school started) and told that I was accepted."

    Is that normal? It certainly makes the school seem less prestigious/in-demand, doesn't it? Like they just look around to see who showed up and if they have extra room they call people off the waitlist to net some more tuition checks?

  65. They (and even more especially, the banks and the government hacks who prop it all up) have colluded to create a distorted, unethical system of Indentured Servitude. I encourage DEBTORS' REVOLT and I consider it my ethical duty to pay back ZERO of my so-called "debt".

    Just tell them, en masse, that the "debt" they own is not going to be paid back, is worthless, and let this wretched system collapse upon itself.

    I and my peers have begun this. We encourage everyone to join the Debtors' Revolt. There is no other solution, not political, legal, etc.


  66. "Graduate of #15 ranked law school

    December 25, 2010 6:54 PM "

    For what it is worth, I fully agree. I can think of no field doing as poor a job in preparing students for the field. In fact, I can think of none other where the academics depart so robustly from the actuality that its graduates face. Law school is a sham. If one can pass the bar on his or her own, relyiing on self-preparation, let them do so. Make law school voluntary, bar membership too.

    To come out of onw of these shitty "schools" and to have a clue how to close a residential real estate deal or prepare a HUD-1, is unconscionable, especially since you are now EXPECTED to be able to "solo it" straight out of school.

  67. nando, thank you for great information in this blog. i got here after reading the new york times website article about law schools. i had considered attending a law school after college, but decided against it because of expenses involved. this was a number of years ago, before the current economic depression. the information you list here is very valuable to anyone considering going to law school.

  68. Santa Clara called me offering money but I wanted more. I noted their tuition in three years would likely be 20k higher. I then went to the state school in Ga that's ranked about #30, did not have great grades, and ended up working full time for the university for 3 years. Moved into solo practice after working for a few guys who made peanuts and paid me dust. Years later still wishing I had just stuck with the BA and become a physician's assistant.

    By the way, over the years I have published legal articles, chaired seminars, and headed up local bar associations.

  69. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  70. To the cockroach above, i.e. the retard who had his post deleted:

    Does you day worker realize you are no longer on your meds, and that you are online making PATENTLY STUPID remarks?!?! To wit:

    "Like it or not, only bitches depend on someone else for their paycheck. If you pass the bar you can set up shop defending DUI's for a living and easily EASILY, without trying, pull in 300k a year. Oh what's that? You're too good to deal with drunks all the time? Grow the fuck up! YOU'RE A FUCKING LAWYER NOW! You want to make a living? No one's stopping you? Cry baby bitches."

    How many DUI lawyers are making ANYWHERE near $300K per year?! Yes, just open your own firm and watch as clients come streaming in!! Did the wad of cum that the strange man just shot into your mouth cause your brain to malfunction?!?!

    Also, nobody here said that they are too good to defend drunk drivers, moron. (If you had more than $12.08 to your name, someone might be willing to defend you the next time you are charged with molesting a Boy Scout.) Take your boyfriend's penis out of your mouth, and answer that question.

    How does that sound, Bitch?!?!

  71. Check out this "brave" Ohio NorTTThern grad, who is representing the piece of trash known as George Michael Zimmerman.

    "Craig's legal service currently extends to the following areas of jurisdiction in the State of Florida: Orange County, Seminole County, Osceola County, Volusia County, Lake County, and Brevard County.


    Juris Doctor - Ohio Northern University College of Law, Ada, Ohio;

    Bachelor of Science Civil Engineering - Tennessee Technology University, Cookville, Tennessee."

    Take a look at this hilarious video, where the Pussy Craig Sonner ran from The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell. The host rips into the bitch, in beautiful, brutal fashion.

    Head to the 6:30 mark of this clip, and enjoy. See how O'Donnell interviews the empty chair in the Orlando studio. Apparently, the vagina was supposed to be interviewed on the show. Overall, this segment is great! Look at the trash that this school produces.

    Who knows whether Zimmerman was “defending” himself, against a purportedly unarmed black teenager? However, the fact that his lawyer ran from this interview is comical.

  72. Too late, he's withdrawn. I have only recently come across a graduate of this supposed law school. I can honestly say from this experience that the school has produced at least one graduate who, despite passing the bar, appears to know nothing about the law in his state of practice.

    If this individual is any example of the average caliber of graduates, the school should be shut down and its faculty sued for gross negligence.

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  74. This is a great website, wish something like this was available to me in the years before I decided to attend the craptacular ONU law. What a waste of my time, talent, and resources. It makes me just sick to think of Dean Crago pulling in the big bucks from these unsuspecting students, living high off the hog at close to $210k annually, while his lowly graduates continue to toil in the salt mines for close to minimum wage and make those monthly loan payments on their mistake for years to come. Thank goodness he has that nice sprawling ranch out in Montana to retreat to when times get tough and he needs to unwind!!!

  75. This law school is a piece of shit.

  76. I was offered $19,000 scholly to attend ONU next Fall. Tuition has decreased to about $25,000. My brother lives near the university and if I attend I will be living with him. Should I accept the offer??? (p.s. I got rejected by Ohio State Moritz.)

    1. 12:22 3/31/14-
      You should really take my advice if you wish to be an attorney without a lot of debt. Don't attend ONU. You'll lose your $19k scholarship by your 2L year and this alone will make you wish you never accepted the offer. I have ONU law friends who endured this. They are now bitter as hell, hate ONU, hate being a law student, hate their lives, and have over $100k in debt at this point as 3Ls. Plus, the town is a miserable place to live. There are at most 5 diners, including McDonalds and Taco Bell. Maybe you like these places now but you won't after a few months in Ada. And, the market/grocery is pathetic. Everything is expired. While ONU itself isn't a bad school, it really isn't, the professors are nice and teach very well. It is just too expensive. The high cost is what makes everyone bitter. Almost every student passes the bar but again it doesn't matter who passes because no one is with a salary as an attorney to pay off their debt before 2050. Try to attend when you have worked after a few years, save up at least $40k to attend, retake the bar for a higher score and attend a school that doesn't force you to take on more than $40k in loans.

    2. I'm going there this Fall but I plan on renewing my scholarship in full lol. If I can't do that then I will likely drop out as I don't want mountains of debt! Thanks for the heads up!

  77. I graduated from ONU in 1990. I just visited Ada on the Greyhound bus. I graduated with nothing but a law degree from ONU and now I’m making $32K a year. I don't like the fact that I live with my mother. But I got a good education nonetheless.

  78. Some of the professors are worthy of having the title and some have the title but are unable to effectively teach law. I took a class where the Professor didn't know the subject he was teaching. Many topics and questions he raised during class were disproved by classmates. He was removed after 1 semester. The dean is missing a screw. He had an affair with a student and when students complained, the administration minimized the circumstances with a slap on his hand. ONU accepted a student by the name of Jay (Jason) Landis. He was a convicted rapist who spent a few years in a FL prison before being accepted by ONU Law. He made it to his 3rd year before an anonymous mass email was sent out to 1 and 2Ls with links to articles on the matter as well as an Amazon book he wrote himself of his take on his crimes. He was removed from the law school and Amazon has since removed his e book. I read some of it, which was so poorly written my 5 year old niece thought it was trash. After so many scandals, I lost my faith in ONU. As bad as I wanted a JD, I want one from a morally sound law school. Also, it is nearly impossible to maintain a scholarship due to the 2.33 gpa curve. Only a few within each class maintain them as it is difficult to earn the requisite scholarship grades among such a small class. If you decide to attend, also know that the low curve is to prevent students from transferring out.

  79. I looked over the IRS Form 990s that you published for FY 2009 with the high comp level for the law school dean. (Thank you.) But you are missing some important additional data --- the pension payouts for the retired law school faculty. I don't know about Ohio but here in California high pension payouts (over $100k/year) are a matter of public record. Please dig in and find this data. And post this data on your blog. Then all those underpaid, debt-ridden and under-employed Pettit law grads will really have a reason for taking to the streets with pitchforks! Law faculty usually get annual pensions of 60% to 80% based on an average of their last two annual payouts. Plus lifetime medical benefits. It’s your tax and tuition dollars at work.

    1. Yes it is. In California pension data is posted on websites for all State of California retired employees: state police, all state university and community college people, etc.

  80. Where do we find the pension payouts for retired professors from the Pettit College of Law. Please post this data on this blog. Or provide the URL or source for this pension data on this blog.


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