Thursday, January 6, 2011

Sweltering Jesuit Stink Pit: Saint Louis University School of Law

Tuition and Fees: We can see that full-time law students at Saint Louis University will be charged $35,090 in tuition – for the 2010-2011 school year. In contrast, part-time students, attending 8-11 credit hours a semester, will only be charged $25,560 for this academic year. And who doesn’t have $25K to play around with, right?!

This page also shows that mandatory fees for full-time law students amount to $222.50 per semester, or $445 per year. Part-time students need only piss away $127.50 per semester on such fees. Also, at the bottom of the page, you can see that optional university parking is $170 minimum per semester!! A student who attends law school here for the full three years is looking at spending over $1000 on parking!!

Ranking: Okay, so the school charges a minimum of $170 in parking fees – per semester. This private Jesuit school also charges its full-time students in excess of $35K per year. (When will Jesus kick the change-makers out of this place?) Surely, the school’s reputation will justify this expense, right?! Some publication calling itself US News & World Report lists this school in the tremendous third tier of American law schools.

Alleged Employment Rate: This third tier toilet states the following, with regards to placement:

“92 percent of School of Law alumni are employed within six months of graduation over the past five years.”

Yeah, sure they were – and Lauren Graham just locked her ankles around my waist and used my torso as a scratch pad. For $ome rea$on, the commode does not list average starting salary info. Maybe, SLU Law grads make so much money that the school is embarrassed to publish those figures.

Average Student Indebtedness: USN&WR shows that the average student indebtedness - for those members of the $ainTTT Loui$ Univer$iTTTy JD Class of 2009 who incurred law school debt – was $99,000. Fully 80 percent of this unfortunate graduating class took on additional, NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt for law school.

Faculty and Administrator Salaries: Surprisingly, no member of the law faculty was among the 12 highest-paid employees or officers at this university. However, this document lucidly illustrates the higher education scam. Simply head over to page 21 of the school’s 2009 IRS Form 990, under Part V Endowment Funds, where you can see that the university “suffered” investment losses of $199,364,219 in the span of one year. I guess Jesus is not immune from the recession/fundamental restructuring of the economy, either.

On page 39 of this tax document, Jesus, a.k.a. Saint Louis University, reported $15,000,000 in revenues from his securities/closely held stock. Lastly, go to page 49. The school received $224,233,044 in net patient service revenue, plus $321,626,828 in tuition and fees. This means that the university took in $545,859,872 in Related or Exempt Function Revenue – for 2008!! This is on top of the $55,538,770 the school raked in via “Revenue Excluded from Tax under IRC 512, 513, or 514.”

Who says “higher education” doesn’t pay off?!?! The school only took in $601,398,642 in tax-exempt revenues in a single year. Does anyone out there still believe that these non-profit “in$titution$ of higher learning” are looking out for their students and graduates?!?!

“The mission of Saint Louis University is the pursuit of truth or excellence for the greater glory of God and for the service of humanity. The university seeks excellence in the fulfillment of its corporate purposes of teaching, research, health care and service to the community.”

I suppose that strapping your students with mountains of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt is in line with His teachings, right?!?! Which gospel is that in again?

Look, we can see that Joel K. Goldstein, “Vincent C. Immel professor of law,” is a specialist on the vice presidency. Wow! I guess this school is worth the cost of admission, after all. From this list, you will notice that Thomas Eagleton was a visiting faculty member at this commode. George McGovern named Eagleton his as VP nominee in 1972, but dumbass failed to disclose that he had been hospitalized for mental health reasons on three separate occasions. I wonder if Joel K. Goldstein ever collaborated with Eagleton on his vice presidential “scholarly” research.

According to Law School Numbers, in 2005-2006, the sewer of law provided full-tuition scholarships to 4.8% of its students. Another 11.8 percent received half-tuition scholarships. How many of them held onto their scholarships after grades were turned in?

Conclusion: $ainTTT Loui$ UNiver$iTTTy $chool of Law is a pathetic waste of space that happens to over-charges its students. The fact that it is a Catholic/Jesuit school makes this even more reprehensible. At least the public schools are less expensive, the private schools that are not affiliated with a religious institution are not seeking to profit off of Jesus, and the for-profit trash cans are at least (somewhat) honest about their de$ign$.

Also, keep in mind that you will be competing against law students from 19th-ranked Washington University in St. Louis – as well as other strong, regional schools – for the limited number of lawyer positions in the area. Why would a Biglaw firm want to hire your ass when they can go after students from this stellar school?!


  1. Great entry! How will learning about the American Vice Presidency benefit my law practice or put food on the table?

  2. Eh, waht do you have against Catholics. I have seen you attack these schools with a bad intent.

  3. You omitted the fact that Prof. Goldstein is also an expert in Admiralty Law, but St. Louis is quite far from any ocean.

  4. "Eh, waht do you have against Catholics. I have seen you attack these schools with a bad intent."

    He's attacking them just the same as the non-Catholic schools that charge ridiculous tuition amounts for limited employment opportunities. It's not HIS fault people of the Catholic faith seem to have no less tendency to rip off consumers than other law schools.

    I really can't stand SLU. If you drive through St. Louis, chances are you'll see (or hear on the radio), an obnoxious advertisement about how SLU is the preferred university in St. Louis. It's nothing but propaganda. Local law firms would rather hire Missouri or Wash U. grads, Wash U. has vastly superior other professional schools, and for many students UMSL makes infinitely more sense than paying to play with the rich kids at SLU.

    And even though they boast themselves as being most connected to St. Louis, I can personally vouch that they're very stingy with scholarship money to people with St. Louis connections. That place has a stench of hypocrisy floating all about it.

    The campus stinks, as it's wedged between industrial decay to the south, ghetto to the north, and the overpriced, yuppie-ridden CWE to the west. It's no where near downtown, so it's not like you get the advantages of living in a city, but you get the burdens of trying to find parking and dealing with the St. Louis city authorities, who are about as corrupt and incompetent as you would expect from a city that went from the 4th largest and a major city in 1900 to being like 20th and irrelevant in 2000.

  5. St. Louis is a shithole. I'd rather visit Kansas City. I heard of this school but i didn't know this was in the third tier. And they have the sheer nerve to charge $35,000 a year. That's kind of like fucking some guy's wife and then sending him the bill for the hotel room.

  6. See that filthy toilet kiddies? See all that grime, gunk and rust? Do you see the dark residue on the floor? Good.

    If you attend this piece of shit this is your future. You will be worse off than the shit-covered toilet. Do not go to law school unless you are taking on zero debt.

  7. @ 1:45

    That's a good one.

    And @ 11:04

    It's Cath-o-lic. And they should all be thrown to the Lions.

    And, BTW I'm Catholic!

  8. This is for Colonel Sanders:

    Do you plan on posting anything on your blog?

    I think you have some very sound advice regarding career opportunities at KFC.


    This incredible school offers its students a chance to earn a certificate in employment law. Let’s see if this helps them land a job – preferably one not requiring a headset and goofy uniform.

    By the way, here is the organization’s mission statement, in its entirety:

    “The mission of Saint Louis University is the pursuit of truth for the greater glory of God and for the service of humanity. The university seeks excellence in the fulfillment of its corporate purposes of teaching, research, health care and service to the community. It is dedicated to leadership in the continuing quest for understanding of God’s creation and for the discovery, dissemination ad integration of the values, knowledge and skills required to transform society in the spirit of the gospels. As a Catholic, Jesuit university, this pursuit is motivated by the inspiration and values of the Judeo-Christian tradition and is guided by the spiritual and intellectual ideals of the Society of Jesus.”

    The only thing this Jesuit commode values is MONEY! This pursuit is motivated by unmitigated greed, pure and simple. In the end, the school is simply dedicated to saddling its graduates with monstrous levels of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt. (Make sure to put these poor souls in your prayers.)

    However, if you “work hard,” then you may be able to write onto the prestigious fourth tier Saint Louis University Public Law Review!

    “Established as a "Specialty Journal" to address legal issues of public interest and public policy. the purpose of the Saint Louis University Public Law Review is to provide an open and uncensored forum to legal scholars, practicing attorneys, legislators, and public interest advocates for debating current topics that are significant in the area of public interest law.”

    This journal also provides an excellent back-up, for those times when you run out of toilet paper. Make sure to keep this little bastard handy. Place next to the toilet roll dispenser, at all times.

    Furthermore, if you are in dire need of more toilet paper to wipe your ass with, go ahead and earn a certificate in international and comparative law. Watch out for paper cuts.

  10. I would have gone with a seven deadly sins theme for a Jesuit school.

    Each sin is manifest in some form within the law school scam. Except maybe wrath, which is what the victims of the scam have to deal with.

  11. What's that avg debt for going to this ttt? $99K. You'd be better off spending that on cruises, liquor and women. You'd end up with a better education, that's for sure.

  12. Nando, I looked into the this school back on 2002 when i was appllying.

    I cannot remember what source it was (US NEWS, ILRG??) but i was stunned when i saw that the avergage indebtedness for grads of SLU was GREATER than the average salary! SLU, for me, went into the trash

    Keep up the fight,


  13. Sometimes, people are offended by my direct and occasionally vulgar language, aggressive style and harsh tone. That doesn’t bother me much.

    I prefer simple, direct language. I may have a law degree, but that does not mean I must soften my tone or water down the content of my arguments. The fact remains that an entire generation is being consigned to a lifetime of debt servitude - by the higher education $y$tem. Seeing that I am dealing with dishonest, greedy pig college and university administrators, I am not obligated to talk about this SERIOUS topic in flowery terms.

    Here is who and what I respect, i.e. those - such as the late George Carlin - who speak in direct, concise terms:

    “I don’t like euphemistic language. You know, words that shade the truth. American English is packed with euphemism, because Americans have trouble dealing with reality. And in order to shield themselves from it, they use soft language - and somehow it gets worse with every generation.

    Here’s an example. There is a condition in combat that occurs when a soldier is completely stressed out and is on the verge of nervous collapse. In World War I, it was called shellshock. Simple, honest, direct language. Two syllables. Shellshock. It almost sounds like the guns themselves. That was more than 80 years ago. Then a generation passed and in World War II, the same condition was called “battle fatigue.” Four syllables now. Takes a little longer to say. Doesn’t seem to hurt as much. Fatigue is a nicer word than shock. Shellshock. Battle fatigue. By the early 1950s, the Korean War had come along and the very same condition was being called “operational exhaustion.” The phrase was up to eight syllables now and any last traces of humanity had been completely squeezed out of it. Like something that might happen to your car. Then barely 15 years later, we got into Vietnam. And thanks to the deceptions surrounding that war, it’s no surprise that the very same condition was referred to as “post-traumatic stress disorder.” Still eight syllables - but we’ve added a hyphen. And the pain is completely buried under jargon.”

    Perhaps, the law school industry apologist cockroaches would appreciate if I discussed this topic as if it were a hypothetical situation. It is not a game! This scheme is altering people’s lives and affecting their livelihoods! Legions of Americans are drowning in NON-DISCHARGEABLE student debt. I will not treat this subject as if it were the focus of some obscure law review article or academic “symposium.”

    I am going to continue to go after the law school pigs with an axe handle. I am taking am taking aim at the major arteries of this system. If you came to this site expecting collegial, guarded, cautious speech - with regard to the higher education industrial complex - then you were sadly mistaken.

  14. First time viewer (directed from NYT). This blog is really aggressive. Have the law schools contacted you? And have any lawyers sued their schools for fraud? Someone let me know. Thanks.

  15. Hey Shawn:

    I guess it will take others a while to become fully informed.

    I've been reading and adding comments on Post after Post here at TTR for about about 5 months, and many questions, such as yours have been explored.

    But if you can take the time, go over some of the older posts, and read the other blogs on the blogroll to the right.

    Welcome aboard!

  16. Wish I had run across these blogs earlier. I always thought I was some random person suffering the stigma of being an unemployed lawyer. I hope people reading this are made to understanfd the problem of degree overproduction.

  17. A criminal in Chicago pretending to be a lawyer had over 60 cases and made a living for years practicing law:

    "No one suspected anything for years because he did everything right -- except obtain a law degree,” Sheriff Tom Dart said in the release.

    “From his own arrest history, he was familiar enough with the court system to make certain motions and file certain documents in the court. There is no question that dozens of people from all over Cook County were misled by this guy,” Dart said.

    Now isn't it pathetic that a guy can just pick up how to practice law from his own criminal history, but LAW SCHOOLS REFUSE TO ACTUALLY TEACH HOW TO PRACTICE LAW. This criminal non-lawyer did a better job representing clients than a new grad who wasted years on Socratic casebook bullshit.

    If there are not jobs, the law schools should at least teach us how to practice so that we can live.

  18. Unemployed BC Law grad, LW 08January 9, 2011 at 9:35 AM

    I read the NYT piece. The Wallerstein kid came across as a fool. Good piece but I'm afraid people will see this as a pity party.

  19. I found your blog through a link from an article in NYT. It is quite entertaining but the pictures are gross.


  20. Why don't you scam bloggers unite so you can fight this shitty industry? Seems better than blogging about it.

  21. I read the NYTimes article. Unfortunately, many kids are cut from the same cloth as Wallerstein. Wallerstein says he has no remorse in incurring $200K in student loan debt from a 4th tier garbage law school because his friends and family look up to him as a "lawyer." Meanwhile, this same kid is praying for a student loan bailout and that after 15 years of being a doc review monkey and clicking away his best years, he will be elevated to an associate at a firm. Where the fuck are these kids picking up all this idealism from? The kid comes off as a ignorant tool.

  22. Dear Nando:

    I have followed your blog for over a year and I would like to thank you for your persistence in exposing the law school scam. Your work brought the depravity of law school administrators to the New York Times. Too bad the NYTimes did not print a picture of a filthy commode next to its article.


  23. i'm surprised Colonel hasnt commented yet.

  24. In the paper version, the byline reads: "Deans Say Graduates Are Working. They Don't Say How Many Are at Home Depot."

    Thank you to those who agreed to be interviewed, including the naive Michael Wallerstein. His story shows that many young people are persuaded by aggressive advertising on the part of the law schools.

    To the others who have visited this site via the link in the NYT, please take a look at this chart from NALP. It shows that the JD Class of 2009 had 44,000 graduates competing for a mere 28,901 jobs requiring bar passage.

    In the paper version, the byline reads: "Deans Say Graduates Are Working. They Don't Say How Many Are at Home Depot."

    @ AlabamaLaw,

    This blog relies on facts, charts, figures and industry statements showing that the American legal job market is glutted. The pictures serve as a rhetorical device. They illustrate the future that awaits those who graduate from these particular commodes/diploma mills.

    To Stephen,

    You are welcome. I have helped some people avoid the financial disaster of attending law school. I have received emails from several people, informing me that they looked at the costs and decided against going to law school. Thank you for following this blog. Please continue to do so. Make sure to refer others here, so that we can help augment the message. You can also provide comments from time to time.

    I also want to express my appreciation to those who agreed to be interviewed, including the naive Michael Wallerstein. His story shows that many young people are persuaded by aggressive advertising on the part of the law schools. The mills feed off of these students - and thrive on the federally-backed student loan system.

    To the others who have visited this site via the link in the NYT, please take a look at this chart from NALP. It shows that the JD Class of 2009 had 44,000 graduates competing for a mere 28,901 jobs requiring bar passage. This means that not all of those openings were traditional attorney positions.

    Also, you can see on the bottom of the first page that 1,058 desperate souls decided to hang up their own shingle as solo practitioners. Under “Job Characteristics by Employer Type” near the bottom of page 2, it shows that 24.9% of these jobs were short-term - and 10.3 percent of all jobs were part-time.

    Thank you David Segal - and your editors, also - for running this aggressive and forthright piece on the law school scam. The imagery and stories were compelling.

    This entire scam-blog movement has been a fun ride, even though I must occasionally put up with law school industry apologists. Then again, I enjoy beating their “arguments” down with the facts and logic.

    Lastly, back on June 13, 2010, law professor Brian Tamanaha stuck his neck out for the scam-blogs. He noted that the abysmal legal job market is not the result of the current recession - but that the downturn has spread the pain to graduates of higher-ranked schools.

  25. Nando, thank you. Terrible, fucking terrible that so many people are going through this. Keep on fighting the good fight and exposing this ludicrous bullshit masquerading as a legitimate way to get a good career. Student debt from undergrad is the current bane of my existence -- I can't imagine taking on more. But I can see how people in the same spot as me (recent college grad with debt, looking for a good and decent career, and willing to risk a bit more to get there and thus get desperate enough to go to shit law school) can end up in this sort of situation. I hope the whole industry will be shut down. Same goes for all the bullshit, crazy expensive masters programs. And the whole student loan industry and crazy high tuition in general...especially that.

  26. Do you ever get comments from the schools you feature. makes sense they would know about this site.

  27. The New York Times article was decent but it was deficient in many ways. First, it focused too much on this Wallerstein kid who is a fucking dope. I refuse to believe that this dumb kid is the face or example of today's law grad. Does today law grad really believe that being an attorney is prestigious? Since when can you eat prestige? Secondly, the school they profiled is a joke. Anyone can dismiss a fourth tier school as a scam. The article should have profiled a school, such as Seton Hall Law School, which uses it's "second tier" status and promixity to the NYC market as a promotional edge over these other toilets. Lastly, the article clarified something I didn't know before. In the article, Georgetown (and presumably the other law schools) count as employed grads that they cannot reach. In theory, a law grad that is in a coma or died shortly after graduation can be counted as employed because they cannot be reached. I guess the law schools assume these grads are employed abroad in Dubai as in-house counsel to a multi-national corporation. This industry is a shameless criminal enterprise.

  28. When I discovered Nando's Blog, it was like a light shining in the darkness. And I'm sure he was and is a voice of sanity in a crazy world for many, many others.

    But lets keep going. There's no wrecking ball swinging over these toilets yet.

  29. Nando -- 2010 shitlaw grad here. A month from now, these shitholes will be recording their BS 9-month-after-graduation employment figures. Now would be a good time to spread the word and encourage all unemployed and underemployed recent law grads, i.e., debt slaves, to respond to their school's survey with "unemployed."

  30. thanks for profiling this school. i visited this place and was not impressed. MU is cheaper and is higher ranked, not sure if that means anything at all. who is next, UMKC, MU or another law school in Ohio? keep up the good work.

  31. all valid points from a seemingly purposeful one-sided viewpoint. Points I agree with: If you want to go to a law school with a high ranking, don't go to slu. Slu overcharges for their education and st. louis, and that campus, are both in general shit holes compared to many other choice cities. However, there are many who can't get into better law schools, likely most of the people commenting, and slu offers a choice, the chance to pursue law at the cost of taking on debt you hope to overcome or don't. Plain and simple. If you want to go to a cheaper/higher ranked school get better grades. I won't say you're completely wrong about the other various points, but as far as job placement goes and the professors at the university, I doubt wiki or any word of mouth can do them justice. In my experience there were definitely some sketchy professors, but the vast majority were incredibly intelligent and devoted to their craft. Not the least of which is Joel Goldstein who was by far my favorite professor for many reasons not related to Admiralty or vice president expertise. As well, the career service department goes above and beyond to place students and there IS a vast network of slu alums in successful positions who look exclusively to slu first to fill positions. Just asking for a fair shake for this university because like the rest of this world, some fail and some succeed and you shouldn't avoid your chance to succeed at slu if you think you can come out on top. That's the case for any graduate degree. If you do better than your peers you'll find yourself in a better position post grad, if not you'll be piled with debt and then good luck. I just don't think you can blame slu for that failure. I wish it did cost less for the majority of students there and I won't deny the catholic faith's seemingly undeniable trait for grubbiness with money (I too am catholic and am always bothered by that). But slu is providing a service with obvious benefits which anyone can hope to reap if they enroll and do well.

  32. i've been drinking bird nest soup every night (i only get the homemade kind back at home). the only reason why i drink it is because it's supposed to be good for complexion.

    i’ve been taking the store-bought kind online (e.g. of famous branded only of course) which is directly mailed from Hong Kong. this would be at a more affordable price.

  33. What is your beef with Jesuit schools? Yes, as private, Catholic schools they do charge a steep price. Some people do attribute too much to the Jesuit name. However, I think your grouping of all Jesuit schools as terrible is misguided at best.
    Not all Jesuit Universities/Colleges are created equal. No arguments here. However, that can be said of any other religious or sectarian school.
    You make blanket statements about Jesuit schools while neglecting the fact that Georgetown, Fordham, and Boston College are Jesuit schools.

    Like I said, not all Jesuit schools are equal. Not all have the same national or internal recognition as the three list above. Regionally, though, they are well respected and represented in employment.

    I think the problem with some of these schools and graduates is that many expect to be able to find jobs anywhere in the US simply with a JD. Most independent law school ranking sites readily warn students if a school is regional, charges more than you're likely to be payed, or just a complete waste of time. This is regardless of their Tier of number. I think the students need to manage their expectations better and take admissions reps' "statistics" with a grain of salt.

    On a closing note, in other posts of yours I've seen you mislabel different Catholic colleges as Jesuit institutions. All Jesuit schools are Catholic, but not all Catholic schools are Jesuit. ex., a post in which you listed Villanova as Jesuit school. I commented on that post too. I know you check IP's so I won't even pretend not to have posted more than once.

    Anyway, I think the problem is both the students' and schools' faults. Your blog and other sites try to help manage students expectations. Although, most don't do it nearly as crassly. The only thing missing is for the law schools and ABA to do their part.

  34. To the tool above,

    Why do YOU have a problem with someone posting info that is readily available on law school websites, and other sources that applicants rely on when making their fateful decision? While the student is partly responsible for his decision, the institutions are aware of the job market - and these dung pits publish misleading data, for the purpose of exploiting ignorant students. As it stands, the students and graduates BEAR ALL OF THE RISK, while the banksters and schools do not share any of the burden - even after the lie to students.

    Also, if you want to continue to defend this IMMENSELY CORRUPT CHURCH/business and political entity, then you can so in another location. I beat up on law school, in general. These supposed "institutions of higher learning" simply DO NOT give one damn about their students. I rip into the Catholic Church, because it claims to have a Christian mission - but then takes advantage of the student loan $ys$tem, and exploits students in the process.

  35. I graduated from SLU law and my starting salary as an attorney was $25,000.

  36. As a SLU law grad I would like to bring to everyone's attention the fact that in the last four years SLU law has had five Deans.


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