Tuesday, February 1, 2011

Third Tier Filth Pile: University of Tulsa College of Law

Tuition: A full-time student at this law school will be charged $30,320 in tuition, for the 2010-2011 school year. Student fees add up to another $174.

Overall Cost of Attendance: The commode estimates that room & board for a student living on-campus will come up to $9,118; for those living off-campus, this figure is listed as $12,642. Books will add another $1,500 to the tab. Without taking insurance, transportation or parking into account, a full-time student - who lives off campus - at this dump is looking at $44,636 in expenses.


Ranking: So the school is located in the cosmopolitan metropolis of Tulsa, OK. Plus, annual tuition eclipses $30K. Surely, this “institution of higher learning” can justify the cost, right?!?! Well, not exactly. You see, US News & World Report lists this school as a member of the third tier cesspool, with other solid denizens such as Willamette University, University of Toledo and the University of Baltimore.


“The University of Tulsa has the 123rd best law school in the nation, which might not sound like much, but it's a damned sight better than being No. 147, and legitimate reason for celebration on 11th Street.”

To get an idea of how filthy this commode is, take a look at this article. The reporter is thrilled that the school is now the 123rd best law school in the land. Guess what, Wayne?! The school is still a third tier, fourth-rate piece of garbage! Does that temper your exuberance?!


Supposed Employment Placement Rate: The school claims the following: “TU Law's 2009 graduate placement rate of 95.7 percent is a remarkable achievement during a year when the legal profession is particularly hard hit by the economic pressures of the recession.”

Yeah - and Lauren Graham just reported experiencing uncontrollable, multiple orgasms 95.7% of the time that she is with me.

Average Student Indebtedness: US News lists the average student indebtedness - for those members of the Tulsa Law Class of 2009 who incurred law school debt - as $68,642. Fully 70% of this particular, unfortunate class took on such debt.


Administrator Pay: Head over to page 19 of the University of Tulsa’s 2009 IRS Form 990. There, you will see that dean Janet Levit made $201,320 in TOTAL COMPENSATION, for 2008. To gain a better insight into the overal higher education scam, go to page 18 take a look at how well university "president" Steadman Upham did that year: this pig made $588,051 in base compensation plus $1,034,178 in "estimated amount of other compensation from the organization and related organizations. Yes, this "educator" made $1,622,229 in TOTAL COMPENSATION - in 2008 - as the "president" of this third tier university.


Look! As a student at this third tier sewage pit, you have the opportunity to write onto the Energy Law Journal and ABA Year in Review!! Yes, you will be the life of the party -from *the moment* you enter the room. Too bad, this valuable experience will not help you land a job.


So many options! You can earn a Public Policy certificate, or a JD/M.A. in Anthropology. Hell, you can even get an M.A. in English, to go with your law degree. Make sure to ask for a side of fries with that. It doesn’t end there; you can also walk away from this moist turd with an M.A. in Industrial Organizational Psychology. (Maybe, you can determine why lemmings insist on attending law school.)


Check this out. Law School Numbers shows that the job placement rate for the Class of 2005, was only 78.5%. Yet, the school now claims an employment rate of 95.7 percent. $omehow, Tulsa was able to increase its nine-month figures by 17.2% while the economy went to hell. Can you say “creative accounting”?!

Furthermore, we can see that the 75th percentile of entering Tulsa students scored a 154 on the LSAT. Those in the 25th percentile had a score of 150. Those in the 75th percentile had a UGPA of 3.53, whereas those in the 25th percentile earned a 2.93 GPA during undergrad. If you have similar numbers, then you may end up at a third tier commode such as this one.

Conclusion: This school is an over-priced filth pit that tosses many of its graduates into the waste bin of society. You will not be well-served to take on $75K-$110K in additional NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt for a law degree from this stench pile.

In the final analysis, this school is a sad joke.
No one gives a damn if this school floated from the fourth tier to the third tier. (Is it a huge accomplishment when a nugget of human waste floats to the surface, after being flushed?!) It is still a decrepit piece of garbage.


  1. Nando:

    A scamblog type article in the Economist about the lack of return on an MBA:


    The problem of a shrinking economy, an overeducated workforce,and a bubble of ridiculously high non-dischargeable tuition debt is a problem larger than the legal profession.

    If growth does return, and the number of people seeking degrees diminish, the education bubble may be worse than the internet and real estate bubbles combined.

  2. To Nando:

    If even one student declines to go to law school because of your blog, you've done a worthwhile endeavor.

    I've got a request for my curiousity. Is there any way you could rank the law schools you've profiled from 1)biggest piece of dung to the 2) smallest piece of dung? #1 doesn't necessarily have to be the most expensive, but the school that offers the least for the most. I'd be curious to see your list of favorites.

    Keep up the great work!

  3. Why anyone want to go to school in Tulsa Oklahoma is beyond me. Hope you like Oklahoma, cuz you ain't getting any big law job in New York (or any other metropolitan city for that matter) attending this place.

    1. Your assumption is that everyone wants a "big law job" in a big city. Not everyone shares this sentiment though. Maybe they chose this school according to some other critera.

  4. Nando if you are going to compile a list, per 6:20's request, I nominate Seton Hall Law School to be at the top of the heap of all law school dungpits.

  5. Hey Nando, great blog.

    I was wondering if you can do the same for some of the first tier law schools as well. Their employment figures aren't that rosy either.

  6. A J.D. and an M.A. in Anthropology?

    I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of a non-legal human resources person. Which is more stupendously worthless: a regular plain-vanilla J.D., or a J.D. "supersized" with a worthless Master's?

    If you're going to even think of crowning a king toilet, I would hope there would be a plaque (or maybe a gilded plunger?) and a ceremony involved.

  7. what is it with you and Lauren Graham?

  8. So many toilets. How can one rank them all? But a ceremony would be nice!

  9. I like the Lauren Graham and Selma Hayek references. Keep it up. Try to mix it up once in a while with some other ladies.

  10. Most people who go to Tulsa want to stay in Tulsa, and the school has great connections there. The alumni do really well, so I don't see what all the fuss is about.

    I personally love this school.

    1. I agree! I went to TU as a non-traditional student because of my support network (family helping me with my children) being in Tulsa. Although I did not stay in Tulsa, I was hired to my dang near dream job just three months after graduation, I have a MA; I was not actively looking during those three months, it was summer and I wanted to spend it with my children! The University may be expensive, but you get what you pay for and I personally love having classes that have less than 10 students!

  11. evren,

    You have something against Lauran Graham?!?!

    To 10:08,

    For a while, I was concerned that such references would cause female readers to stop following this blog. However, several women have told me that they don't mind hearing about Salma Hayek massaging my back with her breasts - or Lauren Graham resting her ankles on my shoulders.

    J-Dog, maybe we should ask Jessica Alba if she would like to host such a toilet awards banquet. Perhaps, Ty-D-Bowl or Roto-Rooter would be interested in sponsoring this function/event?

    @ 6:20, I have received well more than one dozen emails from students telling me that they are no longer considering law school - thanks to the scam-blogs. Jobless Juris Doctor has also received many such emails, as have most of the other scam-bloggers.


    JDU User "outsafely" is one among many who have posted threads, informing us that sites such as JDU, Tom the Temp, and the scam-blogs have helped them make the decision to drop out of law school - or to not enter this glutted cesspool, in the first place.

    Regarding Tulsa's nine-month job placement rate going from 78.5% in 2005 to 95.7% in 2009: could someone please provide a plausible scenario in which a TTT could see such an improvement in its students' job prosects - during an intense recession/economic restructuring?! Does anyone else find this suspicious?

  12. While you have been dreaming of massaging Lauran Graham, The Tulsa College of Law has been massaging the numbers. That's how their graduate's job prospects have improved.

  13. Can someone appraoch NBC about having Nando play Lauren Graham's love interest on the show? To borrow Nando's terminology ask NBC is they would care to show Lauren's heels in the air. You should've pursued a career in comedy.

  14. Check out this interview over at "solopracticeuniversity" - bringing two "rising Gen Y" stars to talk about the NY Times article. http://solopracticeuniversity.com/audio/lawschool-losing-game.mp3

    The guy Jack Whittington, is a 3L Tulsa transfer and talks about the "whining" scam bloggers, how stupid Wallerstien is, etc, while at the same time admitting he and his wife are in a ton of debt.

    Wonder if he'll be singing the same tune in a year when the only place he's qualified to work in sports law(his targeted niche allegedly) is a beer man in the baseball stadium.

  15. @ 2:41: Instead of would you like fries with that, he'll be saying "BEER HERE!"

  16. If you're from Tulsa, OK, please stay there.

  17. http://solopracticeuniversity.com/2010/10/28/meet-new-spu-columnist-jack-whittington/

    Whittington doesn't want to hear the truth about law school. Too bad.

    BTW, nando what is with you and Lauren Graham. Why do you always mention her calves wrapped around your waist? Is that how you view women? And which female readers told you they weren't offended by these depictions?

  18. IMO, Jack Whittington has already committed the holy trinity of clusterfucks before entering the legal profession:

    1)He started at Cooley and then transferred to Tulsa. That is like transferring from a death concentration camp to a labor gulag.

    2) He based his decision on where to attend law school based on his "sweetheart's" location.

    3) He is marrying a soon to be fellow law grad whose eyeballs will be swimming in student loan debt. A double whammy of law school student loan galore.

    I listened to the solopractice podcast. The attorney who went to Bozo has spunk and I tip my hat to her hanging a shingle. She is a bit naive but she has only been in practice for a little over a year. The profession will wear off that naivety. I wish her luck.

    Jack Whittington comes off as a blue collar hardworking type of guy. Too bad that won't ensure success in the legal profession. I wish him luck as well but he is fucked beyond belief and he is too blind to see it.

  19. Anon@2:49 p.m., I'm a female reader who's not offended by his depictions. It's not how he "views women," it's how he views Lauren Graham when constructing a verbal fantasy about the best of all possible worlds. Just like I might fantasize about opening a letter from the Illinois Student Assistance Commission telling me that they will forgive my remaining law school debt as part of their public-service loan forgiveness program due to my employment as an underpaid prosecutor (after eight years of paying extra every month, I've finally got it down under $45,000!) at the exact same time that Stephen Colbert lovingly applies the precise amount of clitoral stimulation I require. It's a humorous literary device, not subjugation of an entire gender.

    Instead, I got a letter from ISAC telling me that while I qualify for loan forgiveness because my student loan debt is almost 100% of my annual salary, there is no money in the program left for me, but they'll keep my application on file "should funds become available in the future." And I predict that more funds will become available when Johnny Depp licks melted chocolate off my heaving breasts.

  20. @ 3.43

    Agreed on Rachel Rodgers - the one who went to Bozo - she's admitting it's a shitty situation but she's making it happen as a solo and I admire her for that.

    But note her entrepreneurial family background - I feel that people who are raised in an environment where there is a family business or an entrepreneurial parent is going to have much better shot at the "business side" of going solo. Sure, the knowledge to run and market a practice is not being taught in law schools is definitely a problem, but I think there's a deeper issue at hand. Most people I know who went or who are going to law school for a stable, prestigious career and don't have the most outgoing hustler/go-getter/street-smart/whatever you want to call it personalities. They are more academic types - are drawn to the prestige associated with the job, making the world a better place, all that jazz. Usually the types NOT from rich parents who are sallie-maed out the ass. A few of them told me they went down the law school path specifically because they "don't want to be in sales".

    Call me a pessimist if you want, but I don't think that business sense can be taught in any "solo practice university" or any other of the countless other "start your own business" courses out there. Most entrepreneurs I know were the lemonade-stand type kids, or worked in their parents small business from an early age- basically the go-getter mindset runs in their blood. Nobody talks about it, and even the people who have that type of upbringing tend to forget it or downplay it. But I definitely observe it. The VAST majority of law school grads, as smart as they may be, have as good a chance of making it in solo practice as the huge pool of people who get real estate licenses every year. Only difference is getting a RE license costs a few hundred bucks, not a few hundred thou in non-dischargeable debt.

  21. Re: Rachel Rodgers

    Another thing to note, she did not go solo straight out of law school. She clerked for a state judge for a year and although that is not practical training for the practice of law, I am sure that experience exposed her to other lawyers and in turn gave her the confidence to go out on her own. Plus, she has firsthand knowledge of procedures, decorum, etc. She has a positive attitude in light of her debt situation (my guess is she owes close to $200K). I suspect she will be one of the few that makes it. Jack Whittington on the other hand fits the lemming archtype to a T. I am afraid the closest this kid will ever practice sports law is if he sues his doctor for mistreating his athlete's foot.

  22. The closest this Whittington kid will get to practicing law is arguing a speeding ticket in traffic court. Hope he has the sack to tell other lemmings about the realities of going to a shit law school.

  23. Why do you take the U.S. News and World Report rankings at face value as ab objective measure of educational quality? The single most important factor they consider in ranking law school is expenditures. Law schools know that they have to spend lots of money in order to move up in the rankings, which is part of why law school is so expensive. You're playing into their hands.

  24. I, for one, am glad that Nando does what he does. These TTT institutions, even many TT and T1 "institutions" of higher learning, deserve every ounce of our collective scorn.

    These TTT universities are willfully-misleading, trashy cesspools. They exploit our American youth at its weakest spot, namely, its naive trust in the system. Such trust has been long in the making, and has been finely crafted, over decades, by a Baby Boomer propaganda machine which broadcasts an idealized version of the 1950s American dream.

    Yet the for-profit stratagems of these TTT nightmares will not settle with merely abusing our trust! These TTT cesspools will, just as gladly, rob honest, ambitious (but alas naive) American students, of everything except the debt-saddled shirts off their back! Occasionally profiting from our youth's Addiction to Federal loans is one thing, but to do so in deliberate and reckless disregard of the consequences is quite another.

    It is shameful behavior for our law schools, which are purportedly there to teach students "ethical behavior" and "ethical values". This systematic and exploitative behavior must be exposed.

  25. Psst, the schools are also playing into their hands.

  26. "The single most important factor they [USNWR] consider in ranking law school is expenditures"

    That's flat-out false. I assure you Nando is NOT playing into TTT/TTTT deans' hands.

    As an aside, I wonder how Lauren Graham feels about law school. Especially Bad Santa Lauren Graham. Have you tried reaching out to her, Nando?

  27. @ 7:53

    Thanks for the rousing speech.

    I turned down an offer at a Wall Street firm because I was one of the thousands of idealistic liberal arts kids who wanted to save the world. My college buddies went to Lehman Brothers and Bear Stearns and earned $65K as analysts. When those firms went under, they simply migrated to JP Morgan or Goldman Sachs. Unemployment lasted 1-2 months, max. Granted, they sold their souls, but at least hey are not Sallie Mae rape victims.

    I am so bitter now, that if I saw the ABA Accreditation committee and my law school adminisTTTrators get into a car crash, I will remember that I have no affirmative duty to act. Fuck, I would post the video of the flames consuming the fecal material on YouTube.

    It's a damn shame that liberal arts colleges (at least in the Northeast) channel bright kids into the financial sector to become corporate puppets or grad schools to become indentured servants.


  28. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vVakfVOSmA

    Check out the legs on his favorite actress. Not bad, nando. Not fucking bad.

  29. hey man, nice blog. couldn't find your e-mail anywhere but I thought you might find this blog post interesting (about skewed US news rankings bc of falsifying employment #s):


  30. A new ranking system. Tulsa number 124.


  31. I'm an undergraduate at TU. Yes the law school is a horrible place.

    However, the undergraduate programs are much better than the rankings reflect and SteadUp, as we call the president, makes a zillion dollars because he brings in a zillion dollars. Tulsa, with just 4000 total students, had over a billion in the endowment fund prior to the crash.

  32. That is one helluva salesman. Who can say no to that bushy mustache?

  33. After reading this post yesterday, I coincidentally ran into the owner of the bed bug detection/treatment company at the car wash. I asked him how business was and he replied that he now has 6 employees working for him. Not bad for a twenty something year old with no college degree that opened a business less than a year ago. Based on my conversation from last year, I am guessing this kid is clearing $875K gross per year. After expenses, he is easily making a $250K. I admire this kid, I really do. He makes all these other lawyer/law students look foolish.

  34. @ 10.48 AM - The bed bug company guy definitely deserve praise. I know quite a few people like that. But as I alluded in my earlier comment (3.43 PM yesterday) I don't think most people (like, 99%) applying to law school have that kind of entrepreneurial mindset necessary to succeed as a solo practitioner or any business for that matter. They are more academic types, and they don't have the street sense/hustle mentality and look down on "blue collar" world like your bed bug detector friend. They choose law school because they think that it is a path to a stable high income and prestige, a guaranteed status symbol in our society. The scamblogs movement and a lot of mainstream press has come out just recently debunking this mentality, but it takes a long time for that association "doctors and lawyers" to go away that becoming attorney is a sure shot at wealth and status.

    Wallerstein would probably look down on this "bed bug" business guy, even as he receives student loan collection notices in the mail. He's got JD after his name!

  35. I have some professional advice for Jack Whittington. Five words: DO NOT MARRY YOUR FIANCEE. I understand you are a young, wet behind the ears kid who naively believes that hard work will guarantee success in the legal profession. That is all good but trust me, love, love is a motherfucker and it doesn't conquer all. I have seen too many marriages dissolve quickly over financial problems. I believe financial problems is the number one cited problem for divorce. No romance without finance and when the finances go sour, so does love. Marrying someone who is carrying the same law school debt as you is asking to play russian roulette. No one will give two shits about your worthless JD degrees when you are seen as members of the educated poor. Jack, if you love your fiancee, let her go and allow her the chance to marry up to some rich dude. I realize you may not have a lot going for you in terms of looks, but if you have a flacid 9 inch penis, you could be a sugar momma's boy toy and be a kept boy. If you foolishly decide to get married to your law school sweetie, I give your marriage three years tops.

    -Guy who has been to divorce court too many times to see the colossal mistake you are making

  36. I have a friend actually considering this school. Even though his numbers are not above the 75ths, he thinks he will get a large scholarship and a job afterwards due to tenuous tertiary connections. He also plans on attaching a worthless MA.

    I have tried to tell him that it's a stupid idea; to retake the LSAT and go to a real law school; or to not go to law school at all.

    Will not listen. Awful situation.

  37. @11:55

    You should add a tickler in your calendar to remind you of Jack Whittington's inevitable divorce.


  38. @ 3:43

    “I feel that people who are raised in an [entrepreneurial environment] are going to have much better chance of [succeeding in solo law].”

    You are 100% correct. I could predict who was going to be successful based on whether their families own small businesses.

    “ Most people I know who went or who are going to law school don’t have the most outgoing hustler/go-getter/street smart/whatever you want to call it personalities. A few of them told me they went the law school path specifically because they “don’t want to be in sales”.

    This is also 100% correct; and pathetic. What surprised me the most about law students and lawyers was the absolute and complete nerd losers that most of them are. Sales is the very essence of law. Your job is to close a prospective client to hire you, to close opposing counsel on the strength of your case and the reasonableness of your settlement offer, and to close the judge and jury on the merits of your position.

    You can learn both sales and a positive attitude just like you can learn good cross examination and good legal writing. You are not “born with”. If you take the attitude that you can learn anything, you usually can.

    A negative, cynical attitude does not impress the world with your sophistication and worldliness. It doesn’t harm other people. All it does is destroy you before you even have a chance to try.

    Lawyers who lack hustler/street smarts and “don’t want to be in sales” should get a part time job selling used cars until they learn the skills that they need.

  39. To the first commenter,

    Thank you for providing the link to this excellent article. This piece highlights the huge disconnect between academics and reality. Scam-bloggers have noted that “law professors” could not hack being lawyers; they cringe at the mere thought of returning to this “honorable and noble profession.” I have also used business and economics “professors” as fodder on this blog, a few times. If they are so damn brilliant and innovative, why are they not running their own successful companies - and making tons of cash?!?!

    “The return on investment on an MBA has gone the way of Greek public debt. If you have a decent job in your mid- to late- 20s, unless you have the backing of a corporate sponsor, leaving it to get an MBA is a higher risk than ever. If you are getting good business experience already, the best strategy is to keep on getting it, thereby making yourself ever more useful rather than groping for the evanescent brass rings of business school.

    Business schools argue that a recession is the best time to invest in oneself. What they won’t say is that they also need your money. There are business academics right now panting for your cheque. They need it to pad their sinecures and fund their threadbare research. There is surely no more oxymoronic profession than the tenured business-school professor, and yet these job-squatting apostles of the free market are rife and desperate. Potential students should take note: if taking a professional risk were as marvellous as they say, why do these role models so assiduously avoid it?”

    This article aptly describes the situation facing young people. I have seen students pursue MBA degrees and law degrees, because they want to “increase their marketability.” The Higher Education Industrial Complex has sold us a bill of goods. The fact is one is FAR better served by remaining in their job, excelling at that position, and making strong connections - than by taking on more student debt, in the hopes that another credential will make you more attractive to employers.

    I have talked to people who are making somewhat decent money, i.e. $40K-$60K, who want to go to law school. Often, these people are bright, are in their late-20s or early 30s, and they typically have children. I come at them with common sense, i.e. “Why would you want to go to school when you have children to feed and a mortgage?! Your spouse only makes $11 an hour. How will she pay the bills? If you take on debt for living expenses, you will be surviving on non-subsidized loans - or maybe even private ones. Right now, you have $25K in total student debt. You make enough to pay that off. If you take on another $75K-$120K, you will essentially need to make about $100K-$125K out of law school. If you do not land Biglaw - and are lucky enough to find a legal position - you are looking at making $35K-$50K. Does it make any sense to take out a ton of loans, and put your life on hold for three years, so that you can come out making about the same amount you are paid now?!?!”

    Also, in my job, I meet successful business owners on a regular basis. Many of these men and women do not have so much as a Bachelor’s degree. (And I am not referring to guys who operate taco stands, or sell women’s shoes.) Many of these people had connections, via family background in the business. However, they have been operating companies for so long, they know the business end; they know how to sell people; they are often very likeable; city council members and state legislators return their calls instantly; they belong to the right clubs, chambers of commerce, etc. In sum, they know how to truly network with other business owners and regulators. They are further enmeshing themselves in all phases of business - while idiots are boning up on theories. Guess which group is more successful?

  40. http://www.linkedin.com/pub/jack-whittington/7/71a/415

    Jack Whittington is a moron. Here is his “professional” profile. What in his background leads anyone to believe that a law firm will want to hire this prematurely bald, fat guy as an attorney? (And you wondered why this idiot wore a baseball cap on his $olo Practice Univer$ity profile pic. By the way, wearing sunglasses on top of your cap reeks of “douche.”) Here is Crybaby Jack’s lame-ass blog:


    “As long as there has been capital there have been people pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps to pursue a better life for themselves. To me that is the promise of law school.”

    Jack, take your “bootstraps” and stick them up your ass. I am sorry that you needed to read and re-read the David Segal piece several times (your words), in order to grasp the situation. In light of all that reading, you were apparently unable to do so. I am not sure if this is a reflection of your “education” or your mental capacity. One thing is certain: you are OVERSENSITIVE to any critical analysis of “legal education.” You need to get over that. You went to Texas Tech, for undergrad. You then went to TTTT Cooley, so you could attend law school with your sweetheart. That was a stupid move. You followed that up with another idiotic move, by transferring to TTTul$a Commode of Law.

    Stick to “sports law.” I’m sure that will work out very well for you - especially in Tulsa, OK. Who knows? Maybe Kevin Durant will fire his agent and hire you, in his stead - right after Lauren Graham finds my number, calls me up, tells me to pick up from the airport, and asks me whether we should have sex before or after dinner, or both.

    Would anyone like to see me give Crybaby Jack his own TTR profile?!

    @ m.


    Here is the methodology employed by Bob Morse at US News, in ranking the various law schools. Quality assessment accounts for 40% of the entire ranking, i.e. 25% on peer review from other academics and 15% from judges and lawyers. Selectivity amounts to 25 percent of the score. This area is comprised of median LSAT scores; median UGPA of all entrants; and acceptance rate. Would you care to retract your earlier FALSE statement, i.e. “Why do you take the U.S. News and World Report rankings at face value as ab objective measure of educational quality? The single most important factor they consider in ranking law school is expenditures.”?

    By the way, I recognize that Bob Morse is a shill, and that US News plays a role in the law school mess. Unfortunately, legal employers take this ranking scheme seriously. Hence, students will need to take that into consideration. That said, when I meet those who are INTENT on throwing their life away/going to law school, I tell them that they should not turn down a SERIOUS scholarship from a lower-ranked school, if their other option is to pay most of the cost at a higher-ranked school. In this new economy, it is foolish to pay sticker price to attend Harvard.

  41. (1/2) So we've established in the comments that people with innate business skill who strike out on their own have it made. The guy with the taco stand or the bed bug detection service raking in 6 figures looks really smart next to the unemployed law grad with 200K in debt. But what should the smart, hard-working, but but non entrepreneurial/sales/negotiation aptitude-type person (aka the TYPICAL law applicant) to do with their life? What is someone who can’t hack the cloak-and-dagger element of entrepreneurship to do?

    For the success stories we’ve talked about so far, it’s also common knowledge that most small businesses fail. Yeah there's the idiots who tried to open restaurants with no knowledge of the industry, etc. But I think those people are few and far between. I know a lot of small business people that work their asses of and hustle but still struggle financially. Or they live roller coaster lives - everything is going well, but then one lawsuit or one new competitor in the market, and now your whole livelihood is upside down.

    Further, most "sales rep" jobs - even high paying ones in tech or medical industry have extremely high turnover rates, unrealistic quotas, sales managers that pressure you to just close the deal at any cost (aka lie), and prospects that lie. The 80-20 (or 90-10, 95-5) rule is in full effect for sales jobs, and small businesses. If you take student loans out of the equation, the odds don’t look much better than law school game from a statistical perspective.

    So yes, the people who have a successful entrepreneurial parent, or healthy attitudes about negotiation and hustling have a good shot at getting it done in small business. But what about the rest of us who were NOT taught healthy mindsets about negotiation and entrepreneurship - parents that worked for the government or academia, etc. Somehow I have doubts that “solo practice university” courses or any other amount of sales courses, or even working in sales jobs is going to bring fundamental change in how you are wired.

    My masters-degree father was a photographer/video producer and it was always a roller coaster as far as when the next gig was coming in - he was horrible at marketing himself and networking. It used to piss off my mom and she’d whisper “make sure you get a get a good job and a good company with benefits so you don’t have to be like your dad” into my ear every night practically. His number 1 professed regret was not completing his PhD program “so he could get a professor job”. My Mom only went to a secretarial/bookkeeping school after getting married at 19, so the one regret for her was that “she got married too early and wished she had gotten more education”. They were horrible at negotiation, they and always got taken for a ride by home improvement contractors, car salesmen and the like as long as I can remember and constantly bemoaned being taken in “criminals”.

  42. (2/2) While I did alright in high school - straight As, got 5/5 on 3 or 4 AP classes, went to University of Maryland. But I recognized fairly early were some issues with how I was raised, about money, business, etc. I didn’t want to let that happen. I knew I would have to “conquer” this to have success in life. During and after college, I hustled hard in sales jobs in an effort to “re-wire” that aspect of me - so I would be comfortable dealing with people, negotiation, etc. I always did well at first, in a few cases being the #1 in monthly sales in a few companies I worked for, and breaking a couple records. But inevitably after seeing the product blow up in my customer’s faces, or being shorted a commission check, or pressure to lie by the sales manager - I became disillusioned. But I figured it was just that particular job. I HAD to master this to be successful, after all. After the 5th sales job (3 post-college) that went through this cycle, it became obvious that this was more than just the sales job, it was also me, and all the baggage I was raised with. As much as I tried to re-engineer myself, I couldn’t undo all that programming. After having the 3rd “top sales guy” (all in different companies) after a couple beers at the bar explain that “the secret to selling is lying”, I knew it was a little more than random.

    Luckily after all my false starts, I was able to land typical office job in a shitty no-name company with inept leadership. It pays shit for someone my age (the consequence of so many job changes) - and I hate staring into a computer screen 8 hours a day. Often I don’t have anything to do because of bureaucratic backlog but I gotta show up anyway “because the CEO wants to see butts in seats”. IIl know I’m capable of more - but what? For a time I was considering law school but even then I saw the writing on the wall and the idea of going into 200K of non-dischargable debt didn’t sit well. Wow, one good call I made. But yet I ask the same question: what is a smart, hard-working, but low entrepreneurial aptitude-type person to do with their life?

    My current conclusion is that enlisting in the military at the ripe young age of 28 is my only option. With the housing and food benefits, an Army Officer makes a bigger starting salary than me. Sure there’s issues in the military as well but at least I’ll have a health plan and a fairly stable income (providing I don’t get killed). And at this point - risk of getting killed is a price worth paying when the only other option on the table being a lifetime of mediocrity. And there’s the GI bill!

  43. the united states is a shitholeFebruary 3, 2011 at 9:36 AM

    Americans could lower their expectations. Or is that out of the question?

    Not everyone can be at the top. Live with that and learn to accept it. I knew a guy who owned a small tavern. He worked like the devil and never took vacations. After a while, he got tired of it and closed up shop. (Stupid fuck is now thinking of going to college.) Business is risky. Everyone knows that. But at least these assholes can declare bankruptcy. Not an option for student loans.

    American culture is a vast space of emptiness. Every fucking TV program shows 20somethings living in primo NYC apartments. All the characters have cool jobs like exec. administrative assistant, artist, financial analyst, club owner, museum curator. People see these things and it becomes part of their programming. It affects the way they see the stupid world.

    There's nothig wrong with working a 9-5 and making $40,000 in a year. You can support yourself on that. If you get married just know your spouse will probably need to work. Making $40,000 can be a major fucking problem if you have student loans or kids.

  44. Hey Nando:

    This post is good one and funny!

    And where's that ol' Colonel at? The rascal!

    Someday, you will think back, about Lauren Graham and Salma Hayek, and they will never age.

    Just like Suzanne Somers and Farah Fawcett, etc. never age in my fond and foolish old mind.

  45. ron, your story is more typical then you think and there simply are no good answers. Why do you think most everyone is pissed off and bitter and the birthrate of what used to be the middle class is going down while the poor contiune to have babies for working folks to pay for. That being said, dont join the military like some high school drop out off the street. Atleast you can quit the sales job.

  46. Nando - per your request, please give Jack Whittington his own profile. He so needs you to open a can whup-ass on him. He can then be placed alongside that "ethics and the law" doofus from Drake you beat down a while back.

  47. Yes, go after Whittington. The guy deserves our scorn. Not because he went to Tulsa so much but because he is so immune to reason. He wants people to be less negative. What a stranger request. Why doesn't he ask the schools to better prepare students? Shit, they're charging an arm and a leg. They may as well actually teach people how to draft motions and such.

  48. There is really no point in going after Whittington. He is just like that moron Mr. Law School on youtube.

  49. No, fucker, she's MINE! mmmmmmmmmmmmmilfy.

  50. Good stuff, Nando! Nice blog!

    And speaking of Lauren and Salma, have you checked out the Colombian chick on Modern Family? Holy cripes, man!

    Drake, huh? I went to UNI for my undergrad. Go Iowa?


  51. Nando, do a profile on this motherfucking douche:


    Kids, go to 1:20 of this video. This is what a TTT law student in action looks like. When I went to law school, we had no ueber douches like this Mr. Law School fucker. I guess they let anyone in nowadays. By the way, if you check out Mr. Law School's attire, he is already dressing the shitlawyer type.

  52. Check out this other "gem" from Mr. Lol Skool:


    His advice is to treat your law professors as if they were your employees. Uh no bitch, the law professors pwned you. They are living a good life courtesy of your tuition dollars, which you will be paying for the next 10-30 years of your life.

  53. I love when the comments get nasty. Keep drilling away at these overpriced shitters.

  54. At 2:42 of this video, JoJo gives some good advice about Mr. Lol Skool:


  55. Maybe change is slowly starting to take place. Villanova Law admits reporting inaccurate information:


  56. On second thought Nando, Jack Whittington deserves a TTR profile. He has come to represent the consumate 0L lemming. The thing is, this fucktard is still in fantasy land (e.g., I will be the next Scott Boras with a JD) but he is no longer an 0L, he is a 3L. I guarantee you will generate some insightful comments if you do a profile on that douche.

  57. Nando:

    The Poor paralegal has an excellent recent Post.

    I hope everyone sees it. It towards the top of your blog list right now.

  58. Nando:

    As someone mentioned, Villanova admitted fudging LSAT and GPA data, and I think that should earn them a spot on your blog.


  59. Nando already trashed Villanova:


    However, in light of the news that they fudged LSAT data to the ABA (who makes up LSAT data?!? How can you even get away with that?), I would totally enjoy seeing Villanova featured again.

  60. $44000 per year for the u of tulsa?? are you serious? What a total waste of money.

  61. Nando you really need to get a life, or atleast get laid or something. You are probably a virgin living in your mother's basement. The fact that you have the time to look up my ip address shows me what a pathetic loser you are. Don't hate on the success of others just because you are a failure. I don't have any more time to waste arguing with you. I graduated from American University in 2007, and work for a firm in D.C. making over 150 k a year. Get a life!

  62. "I graduated from American University in 2007, and work for a firm in D.C. making over 150 k a year. Get a life!"

    Which is why you keep posting spam on several scam-blog entries, right?!?! You cannot even manage to correctly spell "$150K"!! You have the writing "skills" and "logic" of a 14 year old with severe ADHD. Enjoy your little fantasies of making $150K in a DC law firm.

  63. "If you have hate in your heart, let it out. White power." -Clayton Bigsby

    I'm not hassling anybody, I just thought of that quote today when reading these comments.

    Ah Chappelle's show... how I miss you.

  64. I attended TU as an undergrad in the 1980's and got a degree in mathematics. Around the time I turned 30, after years of trying to make my degree pay off, I reluctantly concluded that it wouldn't open doors for me, so I lost interest in math and wrote off my college education as a waste.

    You can tell that TU doesn't operate as a serious university just by looking at what it considers "notable alumni" on Wikipedia.

  65. Even applying to law school is extremely expensive and time consuming, let alone enrolling. Many law students drop out during their first year, and many others rue the day they ever enrolled.Therefore I suggest everyone for a online law program ,cheap and best!

    law school classes

  66. The Law School youtube guy refers to hookers, strippers, and alcohol as "bad things" during the interview with the girl. I respectfully disagree with this point.

  67. Meh, TU offered me quite a sum of money to attend their law school. At this point I haven't had any reason to complain.

    It seems as though the school finally figured out that expenditures and facilities play a rather large role in determining who gets ranked in the top tier. They're spending a pretty hefty sum on renovations. The school will definitely be in the top 100 relatively soon.

    I always laugh at douchey bloggers who spend hours typing these rants. Likely the guy that wrote this graduated in the bottom 75% and got a job working at Legal Aid or Blockbuster. TU isn't known as a top-tier program throughout the nation, but the top 25% is still able to get some pretty lucrative jobs in an otherwise crappy market.

    I don't hear the brightest students here complaining like this little twerp. The only people that I've heard complaining are the ones who eventually dropped out, or currently reside at the bottom of the barrel.

  68. HAHAHAHA YES...The guy isn't even working as an attorney. Speak for yourself assclown. Just because you couldn't get a job doesn't mean that the system screwed you. It means that you're an idiot...

    I know some pretty dumb people who were able to secure jobs paying 70k coming out of law school. You suck...haha

  69. To the ball-less piece of trash who posted on April 19, 2011 at 3:11 pm and 3:19 pm,


    Here is the updated ranking, from US News. The University of Tulsa Commode of Law is currently ranked 110th best law school in the U.S. By the way, it shares this distinction with Third Tier Drake. Your mother must be proud of you, bitch.

    Furthermore, no one cares if this commode cracks “the top 100” law schools. Only pretentious pussies such as you make a big fuss out of this distinction. (If the school makes it into the vaunted top 100 schools, try not to wet your panties.) By the way, I received a full-tuition scholarship to attend Third Tier Drake. Is that something to brag about? In the final analysis, you are incurring debt for a TTT law degree.


    “Unemployed students at UVA Law School are protesting, blaming the law school administration for their wretched fate. Tipsters report that a number of UVA 3Ls have been menacing the 0Ls at UVA admitted students’ weekend. The disgruntled current students were wearing these t-shirts when they met the prospective students: [text - “VIRGINIA LAW $40,000 a year and NO JOB]”

    Students at top law schools are unable to land lawyer positions. UVA is ranked ninth best, in the nation. How do you think YOUR pathetic ass is going to do in this glutted job market, cockroach?!?!


    How are things in Tulsa, mental midget?! Are you enjoying the humidity?


    Time Visitor Session Referrer
    Apr 19 2011 3:11pm 4 actions 7m 58s
    Apr 19 2011 2:44pm 1 action 8m 40s

    Try to be less obvious next time, ass-hat. You are responsible for both comments at 3:11 and 3:19. The last post was from April 2, and somehow you want us to believe that two cretins posted within 8 minutes of each other?

    “I know some pretty dumb people who were able to secure jobs paying 70k coming out of law school. You suck...haha”

    Dumbass, don’t brag about your mother blowing Navy enlisted men, and clearing $70K per year. That may be one hell of an accomplishment in your family. However, most people look down on this sort of thing.

  70. Seriously? This entire post was ridiculous. Because your law school education failed you (I'm assuming you were either dismissed or left because you couldn't take the pressure), you're trying to dissuade people from pursuing an otherwise admirable profession. You say on one hand that a schools ranking is insufficient but in a follow up post (that was both poorly written and grotesque I might add), that a poster should not "wet his panties" if the school breaks the top 100. If half of the energy you placed into this blog went into more rewarding endeavors you would not have as much to complain about.

  71. "(I'm assuming you were either dismissed or left because you couldn't take the pressure[.])"

    What mastery of logic, huh?!?! I actually graduated from law school, in 2009, bitch. Apparently, your sensibilities/ovaries cannot handle reality. By the way, I am proud that this blog is unflinching. You may not agree with the content, but at least try not to let your pussy cloud your judgment completely. The writing is strong, and the reliance on FACTS is undeniable.









    From the New York Times piece:

    “Avoid this overpriced sewer pit as if your life depended on it,” writes the anonymous author of the blog Third Tier Reality — a reference to the second-to-bottom tier of the U.S. News rankings — in a typically scatological review. “Unless, of course, you think that you will be better off with $110k-$190k in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt for a degree that qualifies you to wait tables at the Battery Park Bar and Lounge.”

    How do you spell "credibility," Idiot?!?! When was the last time YOU were quoted in the New York Times Sunday edition, bitch?!

  72. http://www.tulsaworld.com/site/support/javascript.aspx

    University of Tulsa is the 75th best law school in the nation.

    100% bar passage in February.

  73. To the dishonest dung beetle above:

    Thanks for the useless link to the Tulsa World, bitch.


    The University of Oklahoma is ranked 71st, in the nation.


    As you can see, lying cockroach, the University of Tulsa Commode of Law is ranked as the 110th best law school, in the country.


    From Tuesday, May 10, 2011:

    "The University of Tulsa College of Law graduates taking the Oklahoma Bar examination for the first time in February 2011 achieved a 100 percent pass rate, making TU number one among the state’s law schools."

    Guess what, cockroach?! Bar passage DOES NOT EQUAL legal employment. Somehow, this info will fail to penetrate your little brain.

  74. Tulsa continues to climb the rankings, how can you negatively spin that?

  75. To the mental midget who posted on June 12, 2012 at 3:19 pm,


    As you can see, your beloved toilet is now ranked as the 99th greatest law school in the nation - according to the most recent edition of the US "News" & World Report graduate school rankings. It is on the cusp of the third tier still, bitch. But if you want to celebrate with cocaine and strippers, over this trivial nonsense, then go ahead, moron.

  76. Tulsa is a true shithole. And its located in a terrible city for new lawyers. Large firms aren't hiring these grads. That's for sure.

  77. I do not understand why people have such a hard time understanding Nando's point. It is very simple. Tulsa is a shit hole because it pumps out too many graduates. If it only graduated the amount of TU lawyer's needed by the City of Tulsa each year (probably 20-30) than it would not be on the list. The problem can not be fixed by rankings, facilities, or quality of student. I suspect he does not care about Tulsa or Oklahoma and would be happy to leave both alone if it stopped supplying more than the demand. It is a cog in the wheel of a system that is destroying young folk's lives AND THE PROFESSION. The only number that matters to Nando (and good on him) is enrollment numbers. Please show me how the City of Tulsa can support 200+ new TU lawyers every year? Especially with OCU, OU, and other law grads also tyring to get jobs in the weakening City. Tulsa used the law school as a money maker for years and deserves to be inlcluded in the scam file until it FURTHER limits enrollment, significantly.

  78. Funny... you should write a follow-up piece on how tremendously Tulsa Law has done since you posted this article. Gone up in rank by about 70 in the past 4 years? Name another law school that's accomplished that.

  79. Maybe the biggest problem with law school is that we have a bunch of shitheads entering it with dreams of grandeur & $$$ dancing in their heads... I will be attending TU on a scholarship thankfully & I will become a respectable attorney. My first year out of law school I'm taking on solely pro bono cases because ya know maybe practicing law is about more than smancy corporate jobs & the money. Maybe you shouldn't go to law school if $$$ comes before helping others just saying... TU is a great law school that does a lot for the community and you should fact check yourself before bashing it and discouraging others from their dreams.

  80. This is funny to me. Truly it is hilarious.

    I am an engineering graduate from TU sitting on the board of directors of an engineering firm. I am just shy of my 30s. If you are quick to respond, become someone that they actually trust, and start from the bottom, wade and eat the miles of shit, and work like you have something to prove, you'll find that there is no requirement to end up as a cog in a New York mega-firm bestowed an instantly "satisfactory" salary with cushy prospects being filtered over your peripheral vision. Those things turn out to be a disappointment usually.

    My cousin went to a "low rank law school" in the Appalachians, and he is now a judge, and he is toying with bigger endeavors like state government. He is actually a role model to me in this scenario. I know nothing of law and bow to my general council at work whenever necessary, so I can't speak to this trade, but I do know that my cousin started with very local-yokel civil matters. Small mining companies and issues with land disputes, workers rights, and all that jazz. If you earn the respects of business owners, you might actually get somewhere. A man spoken highly of by the clients of his peers tends to be spoken highly of by his peers. These things tend to develop into bigger picture opportunities. He got his through the support founded by his local community in a small town in the middle of nowhere.

    Let's just cut the crap and be frank. A fancy degree is much like a penis. Congratulations on that thing being proud and impressive. Is it actually doing any more than leaving an initial impression of impressing someone? Or is it going to leave your future prospects disappointed after the glamour fades...

    Same goes for the job world and beyond. People quit looking at your stupid degree after they see your merit and experience. The fact is that if you are in your late 20s and early 30s, and you still have to write in your GPA on your resume, you're fucked. The calls to come to work for someone comes in... they don't ask "what school did you go to?"

    So as to the merits of TU law, it has gone up. It's going gangbusters on the rank counts and precedents set by the alumni in recent years.

    I found this blog because I found it on the top of an image search for the school. Pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

    For those of you that think your degree means something, time to get a reality check. When I hire lawyers such as yourself to find your only confidence is in your top-tier school, I will cut you down and make sure the actual big dogs in whatever firm sees that you've been less than touted as ideal for their image and reputation. That's the damn truth too.

    Now let's double back to the final point:
    TU is too damn expensive. It decided to be a fine dining restaurant without the guidance of the chefs and a staff trained to reproduce that. Though to this article's chagrin, they've finally started getting it right in the past 2 years.

    So yes, in 2011, that cost was almost gargoyle to me. Yet I started at the school well before this was published. Even I balked at the price. You know what is funny... the degree didn't get me through the door to a nicer job. It was my certifications in my industrial work I did living on the road out of shitty hotels working with guys with zero degrees.

    ... final thought: why would you go to law school to make real money? Get an engineering degree, learn your craft, and work in an untouched market. If you are doing law, you better be doing it to help people and like the prestige of it. If you are thinking this will get you into a rich lifestyle before 30, oops.


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