Tuesday, March 29, 2011

Hold Your Breath: Second Tier Hofstra University School of Law

Tuition: For the 2010-2011 school year, a full-time law student at this institution will be charged $43,034 in tuition. Fees will add another $626 to the tab. Part-time students will only pay $32,275 for tuition, plus $394 in fees.

Total Cost of Attendance: In the worst case scenario, i.e. a full-time student living on his own, the school estimates that the total COA - for the 2010-2011 academic year - will amount to $65,700. Seeing that these commodes only consider room and board, personal expenses and transportation costs for nine months, we will need to provide a more accurate figure. Calculating these expenses over the course of twelve months, we reach an amount of $72,545. Can you guess who is benefiting from this system?! [Hint: it is not the student.]

Ranking: Attending this august institution will set you back severely, financially. However, the school’s amazing reputation will justify the immense cost, right?!?! According to US News & World Report, Hof$TTra Univer$iTTy $chool of Law is the 84th greatest, most fantastic law school in the United States. Yay! The world will be your oyster, as a graduate of this elite, prestigious law school. By the way, this school is miraculously in an eleven-way tie for 84th best law school in the land. What a neat little political ploy, Robert Morse.

Supposed Employment and Salary Statistics: The sewer of law states the following: “Within nine (9) months of graduation, 96.7% of the Class of 2009 had reported their employment status to the Office of Career Services. Of those members of the Class of 2009 who reported their employment status to us, more than 95% were either employed or pursuing a degree on a full-time basis.”

Sure they were - and Jessica Alba just wrapped her legs around my torso, and sunk her teeth into my shoulder and chest.

Further down the page, the school notes that a mere 33% of employed Class of 2009 JDs reported salary information. Maybe the other 67% were too embarrassed to report their big-ass salaries, huh?!?! The toilet asserts that the median private sector starting salary was $90K.

Average Law School Indebtedness: US News shows that the average law student indebtedness, for those members of the Hofstra JD Class of 2010 who incurred law school debt, was $115,705. In case you are interested, 81% of this class took on such debt.

Faculty and Administrator Salaries: In order to see how well the pigs are being fed, we will head over to page 41 of Hofstra University’s 2009 IRS Form 990. Dean and “Professor of Law” Nora Demleitner made $402,719 in TOTAL COMPENSATION - for 2008. Yes, Nora made $201,201 in base compensation; $165,401 in other compensation; $26,710 in deferred compensation; and $9,407 in nontaxable benefits.

We can also see that university president Stuart Rabinowitz made $956,263 off the federal teat, in 2008. This "educator" raked in $505,331 in base compensation; $175,000 in bonus and incentive compensation; $220,700 in other compensation; $35,541 in deferred compensation; and, for good measure, $17,714 in nontaxable benefits. From his university bio:

“Stuart Rabinowitz was chosen by the Hofstra University Board of Trustees to serve as the eighth president of the University on December 20, 2000. Prior to his appointment, he served as dean of Hofstra University School of Law from September 1989 through June 2001. He joined the faculty of the Law School in 1972. President Rabinowitz currently holds the Andrew M. Boas and Mark L. Claster Distinguished Professor of Law.”

“Generosity” of the Law School: According to LSN, Hofstra provided full tuition and stipend to 0.7% of its students - for 2005-2006. The school furnished full tuition scholarships to 4.1 percent of its customers, and half tuition scholarships to 8.4% of its TT students. http://law.hofstra.edu/Academics/Journals/

As a student at this pricey commode, you have the unique privilege to write onto the world-famous Hofstra Labor and Employment Law Journal!! Think of the cruel irony when you graduate without having a job lined up. Somehow, most legal and non-legal employers will not be impressed with this experience. It may come in handy when you are filling out your unemployment forms.

Conclusion: Hofstra University Sewer of Law is a true dung heap. If you attend this overpriced waste pile - and are aiming for Biglaw - keep in mind that you will be competing directly for jobs against students and graduates of the following real law schools: Yale, Harvard, Columbia, NYU, University of Pennsylvania and Cornell. In the legal industry, pedigree matters to potential employers.

By the way, according to the ass-goblins at US News, Car-Bozo comes in at number 50, $eTTon Hall is rated 61st best, and Crooklyn is ranked 67th. Hell, even Rutgers - both branches - are tied with Hofstra Law. You may feel that having a law degree will lead to more income and respect. The reality is that you will likely end up drowning in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt, while scrambling to find a job.


  1. A couple of the Hofstra Classrooms actually have plaques by the doors with the names of a couple of local and really really cheezy Ambulance Chaser Law Firms:

    Siben And Siben for one, and Weitz and Luxembourg as well if I remember correctly.

    In either case, the mere mention of these notorious firms or "Mills" makes the entire profession seem quite, and irretrievably sleazy.

    I heard from a source that whenever Siben and Siben offers Hofstra money, Hofstra takes it, but holds its nose while doing so.

  2. Hofstra is a true shit pile. It charges an arm and a leg. Its students are fed into the meat grinder known as the New York City legal job market. Those poor kids have no shot at competing for Biglaw. So what's the point of taking out $125,000 in student loans. So you can have a gigantic law diploma on your wall, I guess. Shit, I'll give you mine for $500. I'll even pay the shipping and handling. Actually, if you pay me $20 grand, I will be happy to kick you in the balls. You'll have temporary pain and you'll only have wasted 1/6 of the amount you otherwise would've spent on this shit-ass endeavor.

  3. $65k COA over 3 years would be around $195k for three years plus the lost opportunity cost. Let's say the kid could work for $12/hr somewhere for 3 years. That's roughly 75k.

    Kids, your actual cost of attending this school for three full years (adding on a bit at the end for bar study) is over $270k.

    This is hilariously absurd. For $270k, someone could buy a home. Better yet, someone could start a real business. At this rate, the odds of the business succeeding are higher than the odds of the student working as a paid lawyer.

    It blows the mind what a waste this all is.

  4. I agree $27,000 is a ridiculous amount of money to pay for the "possibility" of (1) passing the bar exam and (2) obtaining paid legal employment for any length of time sufficient to be able to pay down your debt. I've been in law for about 10 years now and my experience is that the law is a very short-lived profession. You might only last at a (big) law firm for 2-5 years. At my old firm, the revolving door seemed to be more onthe scale fo 2-3 years before you were shown the door - and I didn't make $160,000 in bank either, not even close. I don't think Hofstra is a shit hole, but compared to other high-end law schools in and around the NYC area, there are certainly better schools if one wants to enhance his/her future job prospects. In any event, I'd say about $15,000 per year (not including living expenses) seems about right for what I'd be willing to part with to attend law school in today's day. This price of admission is very difficult to find today with most schools charging $40,000+ per year (once again not including living expenses). At that price, I would say now way. It just ain't worth it unless you have wealthy parents footing the bill.

  5. Correction -- $270,000, not $27,000.

  6. Just curious about the mentality of anyone who would attend this school. If you're so desperate to be a lawyer that cost/benefit calculations are irrelevant, why not go to one in a pleasant climate with a low COL? Based on the 20% yield in the LSN link above, looks like most applicants have done just that.

    Oh, and you can get an LLM in International Law? Sign me up!

    BTW, nice photo. I know you get flack, but the blog wouldn't be the same without them.

  7. Hofstra Law is a great place to attend if you want to spend your entire "legal" career representing wealthy snobs who will look down on you on DUI cases. Corporate law? International law? Labor law? I am sure Hofstra law has faculty that teaches these areas but the closest you will come to practicing corporate law is ordering a corporations kit for $99 online to help some schmuck start an online porn company. The closest you will come to practicing labor or international law is representing some illegal alien day worker that was exploited for wages and is getting deported. All this prestige and glory for only $200K? Pass me the sucker stamp so I can affix same to my forehead and show me the line where I can sign up for such a wonderful career.

  8. Wow, this sounds like a great law school that will help me realize my ambition of being a great lawyer. Can't wait to apply. Thanks for bringing it to my attention Nando!

  9. I'm the prior poster above that said Hofstra was "not" a shit hole. I only know one guy from the school. Kind of a weirdo, but he ultimately made partner at a mid-level GP firm practicing IP litigation. He had big law experience from NYC biglaw so that probably helped. Bright guy too. Hey, it ain't Touro or Pace ...

  10. buffalo shit>hofstra lawMarch 29, 2011 at 10:05 AM

    "I only know one guy from the school...he ultimately made partner."

    So based on that one guy, we can ascertain that Hofstra is a good school? Get the fuck outta here with that.

    Let me illustrate this point for you. I knew a guy who graduated from Harvard. He makes less money than me. Therefore, Harvard grads are screwed.

  11. @10:05 - OK, I see the logic, but like I said, it ain't Tauro or Pace ... or for that matter Cooley.

  12. Heeeeelp! Some sick animal just defecated a ten pound 'Seton Hall Law' in the office toilet!!! The janitor keeps yelling in spanish but it won't go down. Perhaps a diamond tipped plunger is their only hope.

  13. "...it ain't Tauro or Pace ... or for that matter Cooley."

    Shit is shit. What's the difference? At Hofstra, maybe 15% of the class turns out all right. At Pace, it's probably more like 3-5%. The reality is that 80+% of students at Hofstra are screwed, which makes it shit, just like 175 other law schools in this country.

  14. Hey Nando - that's a pretty mean shit in the above picture if I do say so myself ... and I knows my shiznitz.

  15. For the love of all that is sacred! This 'SETON HALL LAW' is still refusing to get flushed! We need an old priest and a young priest to report to the office handicapped stall at once!

  16. DOO Charleston School of Law --- please.

  17. To 2:42 pm,

    I have not yet flushed Charleston Sewer of Law down the drain. This is an oversight, on my part. I will make sure to drop the hammer on these cockroaches.

    J-Dog is correct. After a certain point, ranking does not matter much. Who gives a damn if you attend the 61st best law school or the 74th greatest school in the land? Your job prospects are still garbage. It is embarrassing to see “professors,” law students and alumni get excited when their toilet rises from the fourth tier to the third tier. In reality, such a school is still a rotten piece of trash.

    Thanks, 6:39 am. When I post pictures of Dumpsters or sewage pits, people get on my case for not using photos of filthy toilets or piles of moist excrement. You can't please everybody. I also laugh when detractors feign being offended by these aggressive images. Americans love to watch grown men assault and beat the living hell out of each other in MMA cages. They also enjoy watching graphic TV shows and movies, where victims are decapitated or chopped up.

    Those who are genuinely offended by my harsh tone need to develop a tougher stomach. This world will beat you down, if you are that soft and squeamish - unless you live in a monastery. By the way, these vaginas apparently are not that upset with the fact that these toilets are consigning their students and JDs to a lifetime of debt servitude.

    This NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt does limit people’s ability to get married, have children and purchase homes. These are life milestones. Furthermore, home sales lead to job creation in the following sectors: construction, gravel, cement, lumber, electrical work, plumbing, heating/HVAC, carpet laying, flooring, cabinetry, gardening, home appliances, etc.

    If people are strapped down financially with student loans, they will have less discretionary income. How the hell are these people supposed to make major purchases? The law school cartel, of course, does not give one damn about this reality. After all, these foul pigs get paid up front, in full. When you are an unemployed third year law student, they do not even want to know that you exist. They simply want you to grab your degree, and kindly leave the premises. At this point, they are working on recruiting the next cohort of suckers/first year students.


    “When you find the house you want to buy and its time to apply for a mortgage loan, lenders don’t just look at how much money you owe and whether you make payments on time. In addition to your credit score, your income is a major part of the equation. This aspect of a credit score is called the debt-to-income ratio. A couple’s or individual’s debt, including the new house payment they are promising to make on time, every time, should not be more than 35 percent of their total income.”

    Ask yourself if YOU would extend a mortgage loan to a couple that has a combined $150K in student debt? These banks fully understand that student loans MUST be re-paid. If you were the loan officer – or a bank executive - would you offer a $150K loan, for a couple that has this much debt - and a modest household income?!

  18. It's about time that Nando took down this place.

  19. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  20. let me get this straight 8:34 you have a job offer and you have the time to attack someone. you should feel lucky. btw many on wallstreet lost their jobs. i can't stand pompous assholes. i can understand defending your school, but it cost too much. all of your fellow 3L's have good job offers? btw how do we know you are not working as a janitor asshole? i'm sure Nando will be much better at trashing you than i am. lol. Nando, who is next on your list? i request UMKC, its 3rd tier and its in Missouri. at least its not NY. pompous sobs

  21. one more thing Ass 8:34 here is the conclusion of hofsux from top-law-schools.com


    "Hofstra Law isn’t a fantastic school; it has a high tuition and limited job prospects for most of its graduates. In most cases, going to a more affordable state school might be the right decision. However, there are numerous academic opportunities for ambitious students that seek them out. For those who want to take a gamble and go for that big New York City paycheck, Hofstra might just be the perfect school. Just remember to work hard, pursue any leads that come your way, and keep a level head about your job prospects."
    count your blessings cocksucker, thats probably how you got your job on wallstreet.

  22. Oh, but, I did live in NY for quite some time. Hofstra is a dump -- agreed!

  23. Wow, it didn't take long for my very reasonable last post to be taken down. Man, you really must check this site at every waking moment. To reiterate: Enough with the vaginas. Go ahead and delete, I guess.

  24. "...am in the top 30 percent of my class as a 3L, and have a job offer from a firm on Wall Street."

    No you aren't, and no you don't.

  25. 834 you are a fucking idiot and a fucking liar. I went to hofstra graduated 09 top 10 percent law review published and I work in shitlaw making 55k a year I count myself as lucky. Also I've only got 50k in loans so I can actually afford to py my shit down. Hof is a fucking toilet and should be bulldozed.

  26. Heeelp! There's a huge 'HOFSTTTRA' Sticking out of the office toilet!

  27. To the piece of excrement who posted on March 29, 2011 at 8:34 pm and 8:40 pm,

    Actually YOU ARE NOT ATTENDING HOFSTRA AS YOU LIVE IN THE ALEXANDRIA, VA AREA. You have also been exposed - several times - as a liar and a cockroach, on this blog. This waste of space claimed to be a DC Biglaw attorney and 2007 American University JD making $120K per year. (Doesn't quite add up.) Then he said that he was actually teaching law at the University of D.C. School of Law. On another occasion, dickface asserted that he was a D.C. tax lawyer, making $150K per year.


    This "man" also constantly fellates Bob Morse, on this site. Hopefully, he is brushing his teeth and gums thoroughly afterward. His mother must be very proud.

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  28. As you can see, the intellectually disabled, ball-licker posting from the Alexandria, VA has felt the need to resort to racist comments. Listen, I feel sorry that your boyfriend or girlfriend left you for a minority. Maybe, he or she was tired of looking at your pathetic 2" penis.

    "Nando, maybe they could hire you to clean out the toilets, you greasy spic."

    Seeing the evidence above, does anyone believe that Wall Street would hire such a moron? They *might* hire him to make coffee and clean the bathrooms. One more thing, psychotic bitch: Wall Street is located in a place named New York City. You live in Alexandria, VA.

    Also, since you claimed to be a graduate of American University Washington College of Law, how could you POSSIBLY be a third year law student at Hofstra?!?! Also, how can you be making $120K per year as a DC Biglaw attorney - and be a law student in New York?! When you are honest, you don’t need to worry about mixing up your statements.

    The fact is you are neither a licensed attorney or law student. You are not in the top 30% of your third year law class at Hofstra. You have been caught in NUMEROUS lies, pussy. It is time to hang it up. I enjoy exposing you as the turd that you are, and flushing your face and ass down the toilet. However, this is not good for your already diminished mental state. You CLEARLY have problems, and you should see a psychiatrist as soon as possible. Also, DO NOT start cutting back on your prescribed dosage, simply because you start feeling better.

    In the final analysis, you are a loser and Internet pussy who is taking trolling to new lows. Do your parents know that you are writing angry, incoherent garbage and lies- from their basement?

    “I attend Hofstra, am in the top 30 percent of my class as a 3L, and have a job offer from a firm on Wall Street.”

    Sure you do, mental midget/emotional retard - and I have a job lined up as the starting second baseman for the San Francisco Giants. Develop some integrity - even one iota - and come back here, when you are ready to behave like an adult.

    To the paranoid schizoidphrenic who posted at 12:01 am,

    I did not delete your very reasonable comment, you lying pig. In fact, I did not even go online after I came home from work. This is Blogger, and comments sometimes do not post - including those from supportive readers. Yes, that must be one crazy mind trick, huh?!

  29. Looks like the ABA accreditation committee might make some reasonable changes to ensure that law schools actually teach practical knowledge and skills. The law schools' lobbying group is fighting it tooth and nail:


    BTW, the law schools' letter is poorly written, meanders and doesn't get to the point. These people think that they could verbally, or in writing, sway a court or jury; and they teach law students, LOL

  30. Nando @ 4:14:
    "Americans love to watch grown men assault and beat the living hell out of each other in MMA cages."

    Let me also have a chance to be mock offended. I'm an attorney and a Mixed Martial Arts practitioner. I train at a top gym which has fighters in UFC (though I am far from good myself and only train; I don't compete) and, despite having no background in sports law, I represent the gym and coach in contract matters.

    MMA is a lot like law. It looks deceptively easy but actually requires a great deal of skill. Both are calculated zero sum games where you can be behind yet win by a quick submission or knockout, and where you can get into long wars of attrition. There is ego but also respect in both. In both, you usually get out what you put in.

    No wonder i know so many litigators/trial lawyers who are MMA enthusiasts and even amatuer athletes. Grandmaster Rorion Gracie actually has a law degree from Brazil; though I imagine he's much fiercer on the mats than in the courtroom.

  31. The troll from Alexandria got OWNED!! I haven't seen a troll get handled so brutally in a while. Sometimes Nando goes a little too far in slamming trolls. This time the punishment was well earned. FYI, Alexandria. My girlfriend is black. Got any racist comments to add, you cocksucking piece of shit?

  32. The IP address on this computer is fake, dumb-asses. I have software installed on my computer that allows for a fake IP address to be sent out. I have never been to Alexandria, and never plan on going there. In all seriousness, I am a Hofstra student who has a Biglaw offer worth over 140 grand a year awaiting me after I graduate. So suck it Nando, and the loser who posted above with the black gf.

  33. @ 12:48 pm,

    Listen, racist pussy: it is okay to admit that you are lying once more. I already caught you lying about being a UDC "law professor" - as well as you being an American University JD, from the Class of 2007. At least, try to maintain some consistency, moron.

    First, you were making $120K as a DC Biglaw attorney/American University law grad. Then, you claimed to be raking in $150K as a DC tax lawyer. Now, you will be allegedly making $140K, working on Wall Street. What will you be doing there - blowing investment bankers and stockbrokers?!

    Time Visitor Session Referrer
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    By the way, this idiot also claimed to know a St. Mary's University law grad who is now working for the corporate criminals and financial thugs at Goldman Sachs.


    “Anonymous said…

    My good friend graduated from St. Mary's and currently works at Goldman Sachs in NYC. Although I'm not saying St. Mary's is top notch, Goldmn Sachs obviously values the quality of the law school.

    March 30, 2011 10:06 AM”

    This intellectually disabled and emotionally scarred person can barely spell or write. But we are supposed to believe that he has a Wall Street job lined up.

    In the end, you have ZERO credibility, bitch. Live with that.

    From my stats:

    Visitor detail
    IP address:
    Unique ID: 2430270932416246124
    First visit: Fri Feb 18 2011 11:59am
    Visits: 116

    In the span of 41 days, you have made 116 visits to this site. There is simply no way that you are working as a "law professor," Biglaw associate, or have a job lined up on Wall Street. Thanks for playing, cretin.

    By the way, do you ever get tired of me beating the piss out of you - and exposing you as a mentally unbalanced, pathological liar?!?!

  34. Nando has a stalker. Too bad it's some ignorant shitbag and not Jessica Alba. 116 visits in 41 days? Get a life, man.

  35. I echo 9:05- What is wrong with watching MMA?

  36. "In all seriousness, I am a Hofstra student who has a Biglaw offer worth over 140 grand a year awaiting me after I graduate."


  37. Wow. You really hate the legal industry. I'm not in law school yet, I have not even taken the LSAT exam. My goal is to get into Texas-Austin, but I'd happily take most other places.

    I get that the job market is bad, I really do. I also understand that people are going to be successful just because they have a JD.

    That said, however, I think that your dramatics are a bit overboard and it is kind of hard to take you seriously when every S is a dollar sign and every T is multiplied by 3.

  38. Have fun in law school, 8:25. TTT refers to third tier toilet. Look it up. Google it.

    'it is kind of hard to take you seriously when every S is a dollar sign and every T is multiplied by 3.'

    Nando really replaces every s with a $ and every t with TTT? Talk about dramatics. At least nando backs his argument up with solid facts.

  39. I know what TTT means. And no, I do realize that not every s is a dollar sign and not every T is tripled - sometimes they're quadrupled. Still, though, it comes across as just kind of bitter and angry.

    But, hey. That's OK. I get it. Not everyone has a good experience, so I can understand the frustration.

    My larger point is just that... Well... It comes off as unreasonable. All of this comes off as petty. You are angry, but where is that anger getting you. You could be using your JD degree to search for a job, but instead you're using it as an excuse to complain.

  40. I love the Seton Hall schtick. I almost Seton Hall all over my bedspread every time I read your comments!
    BTW, Nando - the troll obvously gets off on trolling. What a douche. I've thoroughly enjoyed the beatdowns; however, the more time and energy u exert on him, the more he will be encouraged to continue to troll. Can't u block the IP and be done with him?

  41. @8:59 - I graduated from a TTT last year and currently make $40k per year. I finished in the top 5% of my class.
    Good luck with your legal aspirations. Hope you understand the consequences of non-dischargeable debt and compounding interest before you sign the dotted line.

  42. 9:09pm
    What were your numbers? Did you get any scholarships?

    Here's the problem, I cannot verify anything that you say. I cannot really verify anything any of you say. I can go by what sounds reasonable, which is that if you don't get into a very prestigious school or you take the triple T route without a scholarship, your chances of making a high pay job is very low.

    That said, there are other reasons people go into law school then high paying jobs. For me, the pay is a nice add on, but it isn't the reason I want to go to law school. I really like law, I think that I would be good at litigation and dispute resolution, it has interested me since before secondary school. And in addition, I do not really think that I would be good at anything else, I suck at math and science, the likelihood of finding a better paying job as an HR professional is lower for me than a law school from a second tier institution.

    I want to go to law school and be an attorney. If it means that I am saddled with a lot of debt, so be it. We only live once, and from what it seems like some of you probably think that all other education is a waste of money too, which you might be right about, but hell! I'm nearly 4 years deep in post-secondary now; the shore line is too far to swim back to now. If I die, I die, if I pay the banks back for the rest of my life, I do that too.

    The other alternative was not much more pleasant.

    Anyways, just keep all that in mind while you trash the idea of legal education. You have had bad experiences. I'm sorry for you. Maybe I'll have a bad experience too. But telling people "don't go, the legal industry is dead," when many people have had their hearts set on it for years seems wrong to me.

    I've read enough of these posts that it has surpassed the level of warning people of the possible consequences. It's now at, "you're an idiot if you go." Insulting. Petty. Unreasonable.

  43. By the way, please don't ding me for the bad spelling and grammar. It's 830am and this is a blogspot blog.

  44. 6:37

    Good luck. However, be prepared for a useless education on 19th century concepts such as 'zone of danger' and 'marketplace of ideas'. Also, arrogant, inept, miserable lout professors who mail in their $200K jobs and are too lazy to make new multiple choice exams twice a year. And don't forget administrators who feel that they are 'bestowing' something on you. They will treat you like a convict who is hiding an ethical transgression like being sent to detention in 4th grade for a day. Nevermind the fact that is YOUR CREDIT and the TAXPAYERS MONEY that funds these lowlife animals.

  45. @8:59

    If you are not a troll. This is perhaps the WORST market in 50 years for the law profession. So this site and others serve as a warning. No one is saying that going to a TOP 25 is a bad investment universally. You will probably find work within a year and it will be difficult and low paying. The average new associate at a medium sized firm with 0-2 years of experience can expect 40-55k a year. MAYBE. Once you bridge the experience gap, you are looking at much better prospects.

    There are certain areas in the legal market which are better others. It is up to you to find them.

    If you are looking to go right into a firm and you are not ivy league..good fucking luck brudda. Unless its Joe's discount DUI and payroll check cashing. If you want to solo practice than make sure you have huge balls cause solo practice is the hardest thing you can do right now. The best advice I can give is make sure you take an internship, stay at it, and try to ask them for a job before you graduate.

    If you are looking for inhouse, contracts, financial (regulatory/compliance) you might have a better chance but make sure you have a series 7 license, HC experience (RN*), sigmasix, a BS in some kind of science or industrial trade. If not, well, you better make sure you are top 10% and at a top 14 school.

    If not, be prepared for an unfulling career of interviews and rejections along with working mindnumbingly boring jobs while making 10-15 dollars an hour. But I have always felt there is no such thing as degrading work. At least I can afford to live on my own, I have a girlfriend, and I can enjoy myself a bit here and there.

    I know its not my fault, and I just need to be patient but the life of a new attorney is deeply embittering. I assure you I did everything right. I had good grades, I worked my ass off - both in and out of school.

    But realistically it all depends on your expectations of what being a lawyer means to you. IF you are looking to make big money and rule the world, than lawyering is probably not the career for you.

    FYI - I'm posting from work @ a car dealership doing claims while managing 210k debt.

  46. @6:37 / 6:39

    It's hard to understand when one person has looked at something and thinks it's a great idea, when others who have done it think it's a terrible idea. Why would people trounce the idea so much, when the idea seems so reasonable?

    Becuase there are a lot of non-apparent truths that others have experieneced that give them the opinion they have. Have you ever been persuaded that a product or a service was great, only to find that it didn't meet your expectations, was faulty, etc.?

    OK, multiply that by 100x. Maybe more.

    I appreciate your enthusiasm. However, since the student loan industry has no compassion, and schools will say anything to get you to enroll, then don't go to law school unless (1) you can do it more or less for free, and (2) you have serious inroads/contacts for employment later.

    Otherwise, you will be adrift with the other over-produced, over-credentialed JDs out there with no prospects. It is just the sad truth.

  47. "Why would people trounce the idea so much, when the idea seems so reasonable?"

    My guess is that because you all are being a bit unreasonable. Not totally unreasonable, but dramatic. Certainly.

    You're all talking about how you can only get a job at a car dealership or a cash loan office because all the numbers are lies.

    Well, certainly some of the numbers are feathered, but lies? Skepticism is a great thing, but saying that everybody except for 10% of the graduating class will not have a job in law doesn't seem all that honest considering a lot of schools have their reporting class in the 60% range at law firms.

    Consider where others will go with their law degree and the graduating class employment probably is more around 80 - 90% (which seems decent to me).

    I'll give you an example of a solidly TTT school (maybe TTTT?).

    Loyola New Orleans. On the ABA website they report a graduating class of 246. Of that 246, 134 of them are employed in law firms, 22 as judicial clerks.

    I know that you'll probably poo-poo any numbers I give you about business and industry, government, etc. and say they're just working as janitors, so let's assume that if they're at a law firm or a judicial clerk, the number of janitors is limited.

    134 + 22 = 156

    156 of 246 graduates are definitely working in law, meaning they're probably making over $40k in their first year (hardly big money, especially given the debt, but let's only talk employment for now).

    So, over 60% of graduates at a solidly TTT school are working as lawyers, most working in a law firm.

    Do you kind of get why I'm skeptical of your complaints now? Only the top 10% get a job? Everyone else has either committed suicide or works at the Dairy Queen?

    It sounds like more of a horror story than investigative journalism.

    I'm not a troll, or at least I'm not trying to be, I'm just under a certain impression about these blogs and the blog posters on them. A lot of you seem to have the same opinion. That's really conducive to groupthink, you know? And groupthink isn't exactly highly correlated to rational analysis of facts.

    I do not want to judge you guys and I do not want to make assumptions about you.

    One possibility is that you all just got really unlucky. Another is that the grand conspiracy you're talking about is true. But still another possibility is that this blog, and blogs like it, are written followed and used by that bottom 40%.

    Is that a possibility?

  48. 8:02

    You are truly heading to oblivion. Even if you 'make it' to a midsized or big law firm you will be ground out into mincemeat with 80 hour work weeks. Partners will assure you that you are on track to make partner as they watch your hair turn gray and fall out. Then one day the firm loses a big client or decides that the partners' need $1.1 Million dollar bonuses rather than $1.05 million dollar bonuses. When that happens you will be terminated and sent back to your parents basement with $200K in debt to keep you warm at night.

    Think it doesn't happen? Think again.

  49. @802:

    You seem to be caught up in "reasonableness." Setting aside that you are apparently oblivious to the mass of objective statistics put out by this and other blogs, under what definition of "reasonableness" does one buy a product for $150k+ when the product *may* land them a career in the $45k range? Which is really like 32k when you factor in 30-year loan repayment?

    Better question: why is it even "reasonable" to want to be a lawyer right now? Because The Practice was a cool TV show? Because you want to change the world? Because you still think there's a chance you'll make an assload of money?

    Skepticism is a GREAT thing - but you should apply it equally to all the numbers you see coming directly from the law schools with a biased interest and a documented history of lying and distortion. Nando, I, and others have very little to gain from these blogs aside from telling the truth about this mess.

    The fact that we only live once is all the more reason NOT to go into the law, a career where people wind up in cubicle dungeons for 70 hours a week while their dreams of representing choice clients go to people who went to Harvard and had no interest in the subject until getting a job.

    If you want to know my numbers and my own story and more on why I don't think you should go to law school, feel free to email me at j.dog84 -@- ymail.com

  50. @ 8:02 am,

    This blog has received comments from practicing lawyers and litigators, some with several years of experience. If you go to JDU and other sites, you will hear similar views from licensed attorneys. Even successful lawyers note that law school is a risky investment.


    As you can see, the JD Class of 2009 had 44,000 graduates – competing for 28,901 jobs requiring a law degree. Many of these guys became sole practitioners. In fact, 1,058 Class of 2009 law graduates went solo. Another 6,749 joined firms with 2-10 lawyers. Keep in mind that many of those who landed Biglaw had their start dates deferred.


    I have never said that those who do not attend elite law schools - or do not land top 10% at lower-tiered schools - WILL end up homeless, unemployed, or working at Taco Bell. That is your perception. If you do not attend a top-flight law school, it will be very difficult to land a decent-paying lawyer position. If you are NOT connected, it will be that much harder. Remember, caliber of law degree matters to employers.


    From 1980-1981 to 2008-2009, a span of 29 years, ABA law schools pumped out a total of 1,127.235 JDs. Do you think we may have a glut of attorneys, in this nation?!?!


    Projections data from the National Employment Matrix, from the U.S. Labor Department. In 2008, there were 759,200 people employed as lawyers, in the U.S. This includes those who are self-employed. BLS projects that there will be 857,700 employed attorneys – in 2018. Thus, there will be an additional 98,500 lawyers in the U.S., at that time.

    This amounts to a percent change, from 2008-2018, of 13 percent. How many JDs will be produced in that time frame?! It seems reasonable to put this figure in the neighborhood of 450,000 law degrees. How many current lawyers will retire during this period?!

    Under Job Projections:

    “About as fast as the average employment growth is projected, but job competition is expected to be keen.”

    In the final analysis, ABA-approved law schools are producing FAR TOO MANY JDs for the available number of attorney positions. Non-accredited schools are also adding to the problem.


    Take a look at these rankings, which show the average law school indebtedness for recent JDs, by law school. This DOES NOT INCLUDE loans from undergrad. Imagine trying to re-pay $140K-$200K in total student debt, while making $35K-$60K per year.

  51. 8:02

    Reality is a real bitch, isn't it?

  52. @8:02

    I've said my peace. It is my opinion and experience, as well as the opinions and experiences of others, that the math just doesn't work right now. This is bourne out by the poor job statistics as well as the average income vs. indebtedness ratio that the majority of attorneys are living with.

    Law *can* be a great thing, but odds are it won't be in this current environemnt - unless you like 30 years worth of huge loan payments relative to your income. It doesn't sound like much now, but trust me, with family, housing, and other adult obligations, that burden will start to chafe. Especially when you would want all that debt service to go, say, to your children's education and well-being than some fatcat's bonus.

    Again, you mileage may vary if you have money and/or connections. I would walk away, but good luck to you in any event.

  53. I agree with the comments Nando and Dupednontraditional posted above. It's not only about employment and salary after graduation. It's about employment and salary AND DEBT. A 40K per year job is not bad if you have no debt. But if one includes the law school debt into the equation, then 40K per year represents a kiss of death.

    I think that if one is to get ahead of the educational debt, the starting salary should be a similar value as to the debt owed. Thus, in most cases, going to law school ONLY makes financial sense as an investment if one graduates from a Tier 1 school with decent grades.

    Most people that post comments here are not unemployed. We are bitter because our law school investment did not pay off, and the debt we incurred is slowly killing us...

  54. And now Senator Boxer got involved...


  55. You guys want to make sure this doesn't go plop?

    Email and call Senator Boxer's staff at 202-224-3553. Tell her your stories. Strike while the iron is hot. Don't let this story die down. Get off your asses!

  56. Nando,

    You have to post the Senator Boxer story in your front page.

    Agree with the comment above. This is the time to strike. Call or email Sen. Boxer, your representatives, NYTimes, Slate, etc. Just keep the story alive.

  57. I have been reading this blog for quite sometime, and frankly, I think it is full of lies. Here is my story:
    I scored low on the LSAT(142,) and only had a 2.4 from the University of Kansas. Cooley was the only school to accept me, and thus offered me a spot in their AAMPLE program. If I pass, I am admitted into their school!! Although the AAMPLE program is costly, I believe it is well worth it. Cooley sees through the numbers, and realizes that the LSAT is racially biased. They know that LSAT and GPA are in no way good predictors of law school success.

    I have learned a lot about Cooley through their website, which is the only source of information one should use when choosing a law school due to the fact that the law school knows itself better then anyone else.

    If Cooley is so horrible, why would the ABA accredit them? Furthermore, if it is so bad, why are they ranked 2nd in another objective but more obscure set of rankings?

    My goal is to be a lawyer, and Cooley will give me the skills I need to be successful. At the end of the day, law school is law school, and a degree is a degree. No one cares where you went. As long as you pass the bar, you will be in demand. This blog is full of lies. I am going to be a lawyer; naisayers be damned! Cooley has a superb reputation in the state of Michigan, and once I graduate, it should be quite easy to find a job

  58. Go suck a bag of dicks, 2:36

  59. Of course you'll succeed 2:36, you're going to the second best law school in the country! (According to Cooley themselves)

    But I think you're just trolling, so you already know that.

  60. Here is the link for Sen. Boxer's Legislation and Policy Comments website:


    We should all, at the very least, thank her for her letter to the ABA.

  61. @ 3:12 and 3:32 - I suggest you both look up sarcasm in the dictionary. The post at 2:36 was the funniest thing that I've read in awhile.


  62. 3:32 pointed out that the person was trolling.

  63. So, was the shining review on Cooley from one of their admissions staff, or am I just reading too much in to that glowing review of their program? Either way, you can't polish a turd.

    I'd better run out there and post a wonderful review of the law school I attended. God knows I owe them so much loyalty. In reality I owe more to the friend who hired me than the scammers who gave me my degree.

  64. Nando, I came to your blog this morning expecting an entry on Boxer's letter to the ABA president. I assume your entry will be forthcoming. All you underemployed, contract, no benefits attorneys, ever hear of "whack-a-mole?" Time to lay down the hammer. Finally, these fucks are going to get theirs. I guess it takes a Senator to finally get these people to listen. I was thinking of sending that ABA prez a letter and asking him point blank whether he has the best interests of the "working" attorneys at heart or if he is just a pawn of BigLaw. If you ABA fucks are listening, (1) stop accrediting law schools, (2) stop providing exhorbitant student loans for students to essentially hang themselves with, (3) limit the number of law students graduating per year, (4) close down some, i.e., 25%, law schools, (5) stop the outsourcing to India et al. and (6) amend the bankruptcy statutes to allow debt reduction in some measurable way. That will be a step in the right direction. Now to all you ABA and law school people, I say "Fuck Off!"

  65. @2:36. After reading your post re: Cooley, I believe you are serious misinformed about the legal profession. Cooley has notoriously been the poster child for crap law schools for probably decades. I know some people that graduated from the school. They are struggling. In any event, if you want to "believe" what Cooley has to say at face value, then you deserve to go there. After three years, you will find out what a big mistake you made. No big firms hire from Cooley. You will be destined for a life at shit law - period - if you can even find a job at shit law. In my opinion, the ONLY way you could justify going to Cooley is if you want to practice law ON YOUR OWN as a solo practitioner AND you will have the MONEY to actually start a law practice after going in hock to the tune of $100,000+ to finance your law degree. If you go to Cooley, realistically, you should have NO expectations of actually finding a legal job, whether at big law or shit law. I'm not a pedigree snob myself, and even I wouldn't hire a Cooley grad. Bottom line, do NOT go to Cooley. Retake the LSAT.

  66. Oh GOD! A twenty pound rotten 'SETON HALL LAW' is sticking out of the handicapped stall toilet! It is creating a dark river of doom in the men's room! The janitors are yelling in spanish but we can tell by their eyes that all is lost.

  67. I just saw the Lincoln Lawyer.

    It makes shitlaw look very glamorous and lucrative.

  68. http://thomas-cooley-law-school-scam.weebly.com/index.html

    See for yourself what a piece of shit this school is.

    "If Cooley is so horrible, why would the ABA accredit them?"

    The ABA would approve a basement apartment in Brooklyn if it had running water, enough space and a fax machine.

  69. "Cooley has a superb reputation in the state of Michigan, and once I graduate, it should be quite easy to find a job

    March 31, 2011 2:36 PM "

    As an attorney, I would tend to differ. Oh, you may find a JOB all right, but it may be nothing like what you have in mind.

    Cooley is a true shitter. Remember, it is a mathematical fact that 90% of any given law class WILL NOT be in the top 10% of that class--NO MATTER HOW HARD THEY WORK. Sure, like all true toilet bowls, shithouses like Cooley have their anecdoctal successes. Not so for most Cooley victims.

    Keep also in mind, young lemmings, this one essential fact: in spite of all the bullshit you will hear, the JD, unlike any other degree known to man, has the UNIQUE down-side effect of closing more doors than it opens. To wit: you will offend no employer with a fine arts degree or Master's in English Lit., or the like. Whereas, the JD is loathed outside the field of law. It is ONLY good for practicing law (and barely that). Non-law employers will be highly suspicious of a JD-holder not practicing law. They will rake your ass over the coals if you try to interview outside law with a shithouse JD.

    For the toileteer, the JD MUST be used to practice law. No non-law employer wants your overqualified, non-elite-JD-holding ass otherwise. Those who DO find the JD useful outside law have significant and valuable contacts, achievements and experiences that makes the JD a nice "finishing" degree. Not the case for most "straight-throughs" in the educational system without significant career experience outside law, i.e., a rolodex of their own.

  70. You know who hasn't visited in a while? NYC Asshole/Hiring Partner Guy. He would set the lemmings straight. He hasn't checked in in a while.

  71. {Sorry I missed the sarcasm of 2:36 earlier. Well done 2:36.}

  72. Apparently I have been missed. I didn't think it was necessary to set anyone straight about these putrid dungpile law schools. After all, we all know res ipsa loquitor. Cooley? Hofstra? St. Mary's? St. John's? These "schools" have never been respected. Sure St. John's made headlines in the '80s for having decent college basketball teams under Coach Carneseca and of course who could ever forget the Playboy Big East spread of coeds in the late '80s. However, the law school has always been considered mediocre. Recently, St. John's was in the news regarding an assistant dean who was giving scholarships to students in exchange for being personal slaves.


    She got in trouble but I personally didn't see any wrongful conduct there since law school should indoctrinate kids to have a slave-like mentality.

    At the firm, we have instructed the mail personnel to discard any cover letters/resumes from these types of mediocre law schools. A Cooley law grad may have the same license as I do but he/she is removed by leagues when it comes to comparing prestigious pedigree. My alma mater will never be featured on this site unless the blog author starts featuring top 5 law schools.

    NYC Hiring Partner

  73. Great to see Hiring Partner back. We missed your perpective. Lemmings come on here telling us we're lying to them. These knuckleheads need to slapped around.

  74. "I have never said that those who do not attend elite law schools - or do not land top 10% at lower-tiered schools - WILL end up homeless, unemployed, or working at Taco Bell. That is your perception. If you do not attend a top-flight law school, it will be very difficult to land a decent-paying lawyer position. If you are NOT connected, it will be that much harder. Remember, caliber of law degree matters to employers."

    OK. You do not believe that people that aren't in the top 10% of their class or at the top 8 universities are destined to be lifelong paupers. But what do you mean exactly by "very difficult." The way you make it sound doesn't lend me to believe your first statement.

    The sole practitioner statistics. ~1,000 out of 44,000?

    That's it? I would have expected higher given what you guys have been saying.

    Look, here's the problem. You're not thinking objectively. You hate law school. Your investment didn't pay off. But why does that make anyone who wants to pursue their dream some kind of fool? From what I can tell of the statistics from US News and the ABA - statistics you yourself use when you want to make a point - the majority of law students work in law, with a very small percentage working in a single practice. A good portion work in business and government, and less than 5% are unemployed.

    Even accounting for the possibility that some of those law firm jobs are just paralegal, I can't help but keep coming to the conclusion that those who couldn't find work in law are in the minority.

    Again, it's the dramatics. I mean, I like it to an extent, it's entertaining, but it's just a bit much, you know?

    I mean,

    "These knuckleheads need to be slapped around."?

    There's just so much anger in some people here.

  75. To 7:31PM:

    Enjoy 3 years of empty learning (e.g., reading archaic Blackstone's commentaries on Shelley's Rule). Enjoy 3 years of wasted youth. Enjoy 3 years of loss of opporunity cost. Enjoy 30 years of paying for the "privilege" of "learning" how to "think" like a lawyer. I am sure Bob Morse ranks up their with the tooth fairy on your list of heroes.

    --Taxpayer who will vote against any student loan bailout, especially if these knuckleheaded kids were warned beforehand of the perils of an expensive and worthless "professional" degree.

  76. The commenter at 7:31PM suffers from a severe case of myopia. I have been in the business (let's not bullshit here, this is more of a business than it is a profession) of practicing law for over 20 years. I have heard the same tired and nugatory argument about how a kid at NY Law School reads the same texts, is taught by IVY educated law professors and has the same law license as the person who graduated from Columbia Law School. You are a moron if you think the NYLS student stands on equal footing as a CLS grad. Let's be frank, Jessica Alba and Susan Boyle may each have a pussy and that makes them women but they are different in caliber. Or would you fuck Susan Boyle over Jessica Alba anyday? Get this through your head you mentally challenged peon, a law degree from a anywhere other than a top 10 law program makes you risky. Personally, I don't look at resumes from people unless they are from a top 10 program and even then, they have to be in the top 10% of their class. If you want to argue that it is possible to be a successful shitlaw attorney graduating from one of these toxic dumps, go for it. Be the exception rather than the rule. However, as 7:47PM mentions, don't piss on my leg when you go deep in debt just for the chance to play the lottery.

    One last thing. I keep hearing how law schools sell the program as a JD being a versatile degree. This is a load of bullshit. A law degree is a specialized degree. People go to law school so they can one day practice law. If you are wealthy, maybe you go to pick up an extra soft credential for a political, lobbyist or consulting career. Remember, you have to be from money or have the connections to make this work. Do you really think you can parlay a law degree into anything else in the non-legal world? Do you really think someone that goes to culinary school can use that credential as leverage in a non-food industry job?

    I may disagree at times with the author of this blog, but at least he is telling the truth, a crude truth, but a truth nonetheless. And I can tell he isn't making any money from it and he doesn't strike me as an attention whore like that shillingmesoftly androgynous looking lass.

    NYC Hiring Partner

  77. The NYC Hiring Partner makes a triumphant return with an analogy that will go down in scamblog history and to top it off, a vicious dig at a sell-out. At least you can shower away Susan Boyle's stench, but the putrid foetor of a TTT diploma will stick with you forever.


  78. NYC Hiring Partner back in da house!

  79. HELP!! Some disgusting lowlife just took a 12 pound 'SETON HALL LAW' in the office toilet! The janitors are threatening to quit and building security has been notified. THis mutherfuker needs to see a gastroenterologist!

  80. "At least you can shower away Susan Boyle's stench, but the putrid foetor of a TTT diploma will stick with you forever.


    April 2, 2011 9:45 AM"

    Now that, kids, is imagery!

  81. What makes NYC Hiring Partner's point more poignant is this question: would you pay $45K to spend a night with Jessica Alba or $45K to spend a night with Susan Boyle? Only in the surreal fucked up world of law school is a school with the caliber of Susan Boyle so bold as to charge the same rate as, if not more than, the caliber of a Jessica Alba. And dumb kids are stupid enough to pay the same rate thinking they are getting the same quality. This just goes to show you that TT grads are dumber than bricks.

  82. Or maybe not everyone entered law school chasing the big law dream. You know some lawyers are happy working in small/mid-size firm, despite making less.

    The comments on this blog makes it seem like every entered law school chasing the big paycheck. No wonder you guys are so unhappy, doing anything solely for the money is not the way to go.

  83. NYC Hiring Partner said:

    "I keep hearing how law schools sell the program as a JD being a versatile degree. This is a load of bullshit."

    Kids, I hope many of you will not have to learn the truth of that statement the hard way.

    A JD in the non-legal job market is as true, gasping fish- out- of- water as ever there was.

  84. "...doing anything solely for the money is not the way to go.

    April 2, 2011 5:44 PM"

    You are quite correct as far as that goes.

    Also, going into six-figure debt which is non-dischargeable in bankruptcy, by attending one of these non-elite dumpsters, and landing a job at $40000/yr is also "not the way to go."

    Important life events, like home ownership, living independently rather than with one's parents, marriage, children, all that good stuff--becomes out-of-reach when saddled with incomprehensibly-high law school student loan debt, racked up in the hopes of landing some terrific job at graduation.

    These toilets engage in the scumball practice of publishing bogus and fraudulent placement and salary statistics.

    Wanna go to law school at one of these toilets? By all means, go. But go informed of the true costs associated with a legal "education."

    That is all.

  85. That is so much money. Here I am starting my business and I'm paining at spending a couple hundred dollars. Christ

  86. @March 29, 2011 4:38 AM

    Isn't Weitz the firm known for the Erin Brockovich lawsuit?

  87. Man, you really can't stress the importance of good grades enough. You ABSOLUTELY need above a 3.5 GPA to get a decent job. There are loads of law jobs out there, they just arent going to the stooge who didn't take law school seriously. You can go to Hofstra law and get a good job IF you graduate top of your class. Hell, my old headmaster's son went to Rutgers Law and works for Sullivan Cromwell BECAUSE he graduated top 10% of his class, order of the coif. I live in the NY metro area and I have successful lawyers in my family and a judge who is a close family friend. They all say the same thing when they talk about hiring associates/clerks: Let's see the transcripts.

    You want the good law job? You better be burning the midnight oil in the library on a weekend when the clowns are out acting half their age thinking a guy is going to walk up to them at the graduation ceremony and say "you're hired".

  88. Burning the midnight oil doesn't do shit. You'll earn worse grades if your consistently burning the midnight oil. Take the comment at 5:54 as terrible advice from a dumb cunt.

  89. I didn't say "consistently", I suggested you might have to be studying when you'd rather be going out with friends. I'm sorry that you interpreted it as such and felt it necessary to label me a "cunt". Very mature.

  90. April 7, 2011 5:54 PM:

    It is a mathematical fact that 90% of any given law class cannot, and will not, be in the top 10% of same class. That is, NO MATTER HOW HARD THEY WORK, nor how seriously they take themselves or law school study.


  91. Check the bar passage rates, and the scholarships. Then take half a second, and check out the national championship titles. Personally, I did not go to Cooley just because it was the only school I could get into. I got a competitive score on the LSAT, and graduated with a high GPA from a well-known Honors College. With financial aid to support my graduate degree, I had a range of options. I got into Temple, Indiana (IUPUI), Michigan State, Florida, etc., some with great 50-70% scholarships. I chose Cooley for practical reasons, and let all of the uppity people who were the reason I did not want to associate with U of M (starting when I rejected their undergrad admissions offer)... well, I let them put their families (not "working" teens for the most part) into 500K in debt. I will be a damn good lawyer, and the last eight years with 2 bachelor's from MSU and a law degree will cost me about 90K. Even better news? Our school helps us to make sure we have real job prospects. Good luck to all of you with a real pretty school name on your JD. When you don't know what you are doing, it's really okay, you can always pay off your pretty-looking loans when you become a paralegal.

    And, FYI, Ivy League schools tout either the theory of the law or CREATING new jobs, not finding them. As far as I know, there is no new definition of the American Dream. You work hard, get good grades, and ignore the a-holes who slam you for not choosing what is deemed to be "the best."

    Ha. Reminds me of buying clothes from Canada in Junior High so kids couldn't make fun of name brands.

    Shame on you. Don't quote the Bible in your efforts to feel better about not achieving your dreams. Blame yourself and your influences for allowing you to create a post like this that attacks the dreams people have. Better yet, go back to Junior High and ask them about 2:36. ----- Then once you take a law school class that teaches you MORE than how to take an OPEN book exam (that still cracks me up), refuse to approve this post and come back and tell me about open forums.

    Oh yeah, those of us who have wanted to be lawyers since we were kids do not do it "just for the money." It is a way to support a family and do what we love. There is nothing attractive to me about working for a huge firm, but if you would like, I can give you a secret phone number to call this guy named SAM... big-buck ambulance-chasing dude with political aspirations (any Ivies out there???) then you can serve coffee for two years before you get to redirect calls to regional firms and take commissions from the referrals (please tell me that you ARE a janitor, and that this is NOT your "non-legal" job. I have already had enough problems with Comcast this week as it is, I am sure they need new techs if you are that unhappy).

    BTW, sorta more than SUPER CREEPY how you post people's IP addresses when you don't like their posts.

  92. To April 29, 2011 12:39 AM:

    It makes absolutely NO SENSE that someone with a supposedly high level of self-confidence would make the effort, let alone spend the valuable TIME, to express that level of well-thought-out rage, least of all, to express said rage at a bunch of scambloggers who wish you NO HARM WHATSOEVER.

    What in your little, immature, oversensitive and fragile mind gave you the idea scambloggers want to keep YOU from attending some toilet bowl of a law school? By all means, enjoy.

    The scambloggers merely seek to try to prevent another generaton's-worth of kids from ending up in their parents' basements for life, saddled with uncontrollable and unavoidable debt and no job prospects. Do some people succeed with their toilet-bowl JD's? Of course. Then again, there are ancedotes of those who also survive a fall from a five-storey building. The anecdotes of survival do not make the jump a good idea for MOST people to try. See what I'm getting at? No one is stopping you from jumping, nor do we care. Just don't bitch about it whenyou are up to your ass in debt from one of these festering sewers of law, rather than enter one of the myriad other fields of endeavor where there is actually some demand for entrants and for which there is no endless need for prestige-whoring. You'll see.

    Best of luck to you.

  93. Hofstra is a sweltering sewer pipe.

  94. To the piece of garbage referring to itself as “Stephanie”:

    I post IP addresses when trolls attempt to hijack the discussion. When you post idiotic posts, you cannot expect complete anonymity. Furthermore, law school industry apologist cockroaches try to give the false impression that there are numerous defenders out there.

    Also, plenty of morons come on here claiming to be big-time lawyers or “law professors.” However, when I look up their IPs, often they are posting from colleges and universities. So much for credibility, huh? By the way, how many wildly successful attorneys have time to peruse these scam-blogs?! REAL lawyers are too busy meeting clients, arranging deals, and making money to visit these sites.


    How are things in Auburn Hills/Detroit?!

    Time Visitor Session Referrer
    Apr 30 2011 10:49am 1 action 5m 20s
    Apr 30 2011 10:26am 1 action 8m 40s
    Apr 29 2011 7:08pm 3 actions 12m 45s
    Apr 29 2011 12:02am 6 actions 45m 33s
    Apr 28 2011 11:23pm 4 actions 23m 13s

    “BTW, sorta more than SUPER CREEPY how you post people's IP addresses when you don't like their posts.”

    Use adult language, dumbass. No one respects those who have the communication skills of a sixth grader. It is creepy - and beyond pathetic - that you keep visiting/trolling this site. If you do not like the straightforward, unflinching content of this blog, then go away, Stupid! Do you understand that basic concept, cretin?!?!

    Keep in mind that this post is about Hofstra, which is located in Hempstead, New York. The main entry does not mention the festering stench pit known as Thomas M. Cooley Law School. The fact that you - and other mental deficients - feel the need to defend this commode at every turn shows that the school is lacking ANY semblance of respectability. For instance, do you see trolls popping up to defend Stanford, Yale or the University of Chicago, on different forums?!


    A former Cooley student wrote this excoriating analysis of this dung heap, back on Valentine’s Day 2011. To date, it remains his sole blog entry. Look at the spam and apologist pigs it has attracted. This toilet truly is afraid of the truth seeping out, isn’t it?

  95. Don't forget Hofstra's low bar passage rate. Hofstra=78%, Brooklyn=90%, St. Johns=87%, New York Law School=84%. They also have an awful building.

  96. Also, plenty of morons come on here claiming to be big-time lawyers or “law professors.” However, when I look up their IPs, often they are posting from colleges and universities. So much for credibility, huh? By the way, how many wildly successful attorneys have time to peruse these scam-blogs?! REAL lawyers are too busy meeting clients, arranging deals, and making money to visit these sites.
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  97. Don't forget Hofstra's low bar passage rate. Hofstra=78%, Brooklyn=90%,[url=http://www.seomediasite.com/seo.html]search engine optimization company[/url]
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  98. To anonymous who uses Loyola NO as an example of a "solid" TTT above: I went there and would remind you that Louisiana is really the only state to have a solid Civil Code tradition. (Think the Napoleonic Code.) The two private schools (Tulane and Loyola) have many out of staters and offer both Civil and Common Law Tracks. If you plan to stay in LA, you take Civil Law. That means however that if you did Common Law, you have to do a lot of cramming to understand the Civil Code, etc. for the bar exam. So that would give graduates of the four LA law schools a leg up for the everyday type of jobs in the state. That could result in more respectable job numbers for a school like Loyola. I graduated a while ago and don't practice so I don't know what sort of success people have finding jobs in or outside of LA currently.

  99. Hofstra Law was the worst experience of my life! I called it Hoffy Law and yes, it was a bore! Horrid professors who taught nothing and left me with nothing but debt! I hated Hoffy law ooh la la ooh la la ooh la la la law. I graduated in 1988 and I am glad that you all are exposing the misery of Hoffy Law for what it is

  100. Hofstra is a sweltering sewer pipe.

  101. http://ip-whois-lookup.com/lookup.php?ip=

    NetRange: -
    OriginAS: AS33703
    NetName: HOFSTRA-NET
    NetHandle: NET-147-4-0-0-1
    Parent: NET-147-0-0-0-0
    NetType: Direct Assignment
    Comment: We changed our Organization Contact yesterday
    Comment: ARIN-20031214.8
    RegDate: 1991-03-26
    Updated: 2009-09-01
    Ref: http://whois.arin.net/rest/net/NET-147-4-0-0-1

    OrgName: Hofstra University
    OrgId: HOFSTR
    Address: 1000 Fulton Avenue
    City: Hempstead
    StateProv: NY
    PostalCode: 11550
    Country: US
    RegDate: 1991-03-26
    Updated: 2011-09-24
    Ref: http://whois.arin.net/rest/org/HOFSTR
    To the pile of monkey waste – using the moniker “Frank” - who posted at 5:53 am today,

    You suck ass at spelling, Stupid Bitch/Hofstra swine. Learn how to write a simple sentence BEFORE tossing your financial future, into the trash bin. To wit:

    “Maybe you are just a sucky person that does not interview well.”

    IP address:
    IP lookup: ARIN / RIPE
    Unique ID: 1532832332
    First visit: Wed Jan 4 2012 5:51am
    Visits: 1
    Language: English
    Location: Hempstead, NY, USA
    Operating system: Mac OS X
    Web browser: Safari 5.1
    Resolution: 1024x768
    Javascript: Enabled

    Time Visitor Session Referrer
    Jan 4 2012 5:51am 5 actions 1m 49s google.com top ten% hofstra law

    If you want to piss away your future – and your semblance of a life – on a law degree from Hofstra University, then go ahead, cockroach. No one is stopping you from making another foolish decision.

  102. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  103. To the anonymous pussy who posted at 5:41 am,


    Become a man and stop posting from Hofstra University, Frank. Perhaps your mother cut off your internet access, since she caught you accessing child porn. I doubt that you have a 3.8 GPA - unless your major is blowing “professors” under the desk.

    OrgName: Hofstra University
    OrgId: HOFSTR
    Address: 1000 Fulton Avenue
    City: Hempstead
    StateProv: NY
    PostalCode: 11550
    Country: US
    RegDate: 1991-03-26
    Updated: 2011-09-24
    Ref: http://whois.arin.net/rest/org/HOFSTR

    From my analytics:

    Visitor detail
    IP address:
    IP lookup: ARIN / RIPE
    Unique ID: 1532832332
    First visit: Wed Jan 4 2012 5:51am
    Visits: 4
    Language: English
    Location: Hempstead, NY, USA
    Operating system: Mac OS X
    Web browser: Safari 5.1
    Resolution: 1024x768
    Javascript: Enabled

    Visits by this user in the last 7 days

    Time Visitor Session Referrer
    Jan 8 2012 6:06am 1 action 10s google.com hofstra law tier reality
    Jan 8 2012 5:40am 4 actions 1m blogger.com/comment-iframe.g
    Jan 8 2012 5:25am 1 action 10s google.com big law hofstra university
    Jan 4 2012 5:51am 5 actions 1m 49s google.com top ten% hofstra law

    We can see that Pussy Boy is using Google to look up "big law hofstra university" and "top ten% hofstra law." The child desires to break into this GLUTTED market - and no amount of hard evidence is going to change the turd's little mind. Good luck in law school, cockroach.

    By the way, my wife and I purchased a home about two years ago. Furthermore, I haven't lived with my parents since I was 18 years old, Stupid. Grow a backbone, a brain and some balls BEFORE commenting on this subject, bitch. Otherwise, you will continue to talk out of your ass.

  104. This comment has been removed by the author.

  105. On September 14, 2011, Andrew Keshner published a piece for the New York Law Journal, under the headline "Hofstra Renames Law School for Contributor of $20 Million." Here is the extent of the clip provided - for those without a subscription to this rag:


    "Hofstra University School of Law will become the Maurice A. Deane School of Law at Hofstra University in honor of wealthy retired pharmaceutical executive who enrolled in the school at age 50 and was the valedictorian in the class of 1981, the school announced yesterday."

    As you can see, this commode has changed its name to the Maurice A. Deane Sewer of Law at Hofstra University. You KNOW that your law school is a foul turd when it chooses to place the name of a donor BEFORE that of the university!


    Check out Elie Mystal's stance on this filth. He wrote an entry on September 15, 2011 labeled "Is Any of This Law School Naming Rights Money Going Back to the Students?" Read his biting commentary:

    "What did Hofstra students really get out of becoming the Don’t Know Him From Adam School of Law?

    The donation will approximately double the law school’s endowment to about $40 million, according to Dean Nora V. Demleitner.

    She said interest from the gift will be used to help with student loans and enhance offerings like student fellowships, research and travel.

    In deciding how to best use the funds from the interest, Ms. Demleitner said she was “mindful” to address important issues facing law students — finding good professional positions after graduation and attempting to control debt loads.

    Okay. If you say so. I don’t think Hofstra really wants to act like “student fellowships” is the same as “finding good professional positions,” but alright.

    This sounds promising. I can’t wait for Dean Demleitner to tell everybody how much tuition is coming down for Hofstra students now that the stupidly-named school has an extra $20 million and a commitment to help students “control debt loads.”

    But I’m not going to hold my breath."

    This school is still a festering pile of rat droppings. Plus, the commode has even less name recognition. Bright move, ass-clowns.

  106. Hofstra Law School is such a pathetic piece of fucking shit, it's embarrassing to send out resumes with the name of the school on them.

  107. I earned a J.D. from Temple University in Philadelphia, and this is what I am currently doing:

    Dear Judge Freeh:

    I am writing to you as a concerned citizen.

    There is circumstantial evidence that I am engaged in the commission of a felony against the government of the United States. There is circumstantial evidence that I have used The George Washington University to help me defraud the government of the United States of hundreds of thousands of dollars in Social Security Disability and Medicare benefits.

    I was employed as a paralegal at the law firm of Akin, Gump, Strauss, Hauer & Feld from 1988 to October 29, 1991, on which date my employment was terminated. To avoid the legal consequences of an unlawful termination, several Akin Gump management partners conspired to defame me, enabling me to defraud the U.S. Social Security Administration of hundreds of thousands of dollars in disability benefits on the grounds that I suffered from disabling mental illness that might be associated with a risk of violence.

    I request that you contact the Washington Field Office of the FBI to urge that this possible felony be investigated. You may contact the Washington Field Office of the FBI at 202 278-2000.

    Gary Freedman
    3801 Connecticut Avenue, NW
    Apt. 136
    Washington, DC 20008

    Telephone: 202 362 7064

  108. The pigeons have come home to roost. Hofstra fell from 89th to 113th in the 2014 US News rankings. Can anyone imagine why such a drop occurred? Could the new dean be more honest than the old one? When Nora Demleitner started as dean at Hofstra it was in the third tier. It made it as high as the mid-80s during her tenure. Now it has fallen well in to the 3rd tier, much lower than it has ever been. You can draw your own conclusions from this but the ABA and the Hofstra administration needs to investigate.

  109. To Nora Demleitner:

    Morgan Cloud (Emory) & George B. Shepherd (Emory), Law Deans In Jail, 77 Mo. L. Rev. 931 (2012):

    A most unlikely collection of suspects - law schools, their deans, U.S. News & World Report and its employees - may have committed felonies by publishing false information as part of U.S. News' ranking of law schools. The possible federal felonies include mail and wire fraud, conspiracy, racketeering, and making false statements. Employees of law schools and U.S. News who committed these crimes can be punished as individuals, and under federal law the schools and U.S. News would likely be criminally liable for their agents' crimes.

    Some law schools and their deans submitted false information about the schools' expenditures and their students' undergraduate grades and LSAT scores. Others submitted information that may have been literally true but was misleading. Examples include misleading statistics about recent graduates' employment rates and students' undergraduate grades and LSAT scores.

    U.S. News itself may have committed mail and wire fraud. It has republished, and sold for profit, data submitted by law schools without verifying the data's accuracy, despite being aware that at least some schools were submitting false and misleading data. U.S. News refused to correct incorrect data and rankings errors and continued to sell that information even after individual schools confessed that they had submitted false information. In addition, U.S. News marketed its surveys and rankings as valid although they were riddled with fundamental methodological errors

  110. From WSJ: "Hofstra University law school has followed the opposite trajectory from Nebraska. Since 2013, it’s dropped 46 spots to 135th. But in the last two years, the private school has raised its tuition by more than $4,000 for full-time students or more than 9%. Nebraska’s tuition, by comparison, has grown by $2,000 for out-of-state students — a less than 7% increase — and is nearly $20,000 cheaper than Hofstra’s. Law Blog has reached out to Hofstra for comment."


  111. Did you see this? Hofstra's student faculty ratio dropped from 15 to 1 in 2012 to 18.19 in 2013. That's a huge drop. The only explanation for this is that Hofstra published a fraudulent figure last year and in recent years but the correct one this year.

    Thats the problem with being dishonest. Eventually you have to tell the truth.


  112. Hey Nando, long time lurker, first time poster. I'm literally obsessed with the scamblog movement.

    I am actually a rising 3L at this fine institution. Through the school scholarship and outside scholarships, I've managed to keep my COA/loans down to 41k. I'm summering at a great midlaw firm, so I'm lucky enough to be able to pay the remainder out of pocket for the coming year. So far, my outcome has been pretty good, because I've worked hard but mostly because I've been EXTREMELY lucky.

    That being said, you're right on the money on this one. While I know a handful of people with summer associate jobs, they are few and far between. Most are languishing in small law offices, insurance companies that will never hire after graduation, or worse. The school treats you like gold from the time you apply to the time you actually start, with tons of events at fancy firms filled with distinguished people to drive home the subliminal message that "this is what's waiting for you when you graduate."

    Except it's all bullshit. OCI is a joke, and career services caters exclusively to the top 10% and that's it. Ironically, once they knew I had already gotten a good job I became a favored son and now I hear from them on a regular basis. Almost everyone else outside the top 10% is left SOL and must fend for themselves. On top of that, the drop in US "News" from 89-135 just in the time I've been attending is demoralizing to the student body, to say the least. On the opposite track, sticker tuition has rocketed up more than 4000 in that same time. It's at 52k+ now, if you're curious.

    I love some of my classmates, but a lot of the kids that attend are brainless K-JD's who come in pretending that they're interested in Mergers and Acquisitions because they think it sounds better than saying they want to make money. They fail to grasp that student loans aren't funny money, you have to pay that shit back! Honestly, if the school cut out all the morons, we might actually have a respectable institution.

    I could rant on and on, but my time is better spent exercising my mouth muscles in case the day comes when my firm declares that, in order for them to hire me when I graduate, I must get on my knees and give fellatio to each senior partner in succession. I'd like to say I'd refuse, but desperation does terrible things to a man...

  113. I really enjoyed this blog. Nando - you made me laugh out loud several times. I graduated in 2005 from Hofstra Law. I was one of the few to land a big law job. I left after 4 years and have struggled to find a high paying job since. Thank God, I am currently employed, but trying to make a lateral move is very difficult. I really feel that my school is hurting me, especially bc of the dramatic drop in the rankings. My poor wife thought she was marrying someone that would make a ton of money and has been hit in the face with reality. I tell anyone that asks me to not go to law school unless you get into a top ten school. There are just not enough jobs out there. Any good position has 1,000 applications, with people from better schools than you. How can you compete? Answer: you can't.....

  114. I graduated from Hofstra Law in the early 90's. Getting a job was tough even then, but nothing like it is now. The cost of tuition plus room and board left me with 65k in debt. This included 5k borrowed for living on campus and studying for the bar after graduation. Over the years I've told many young people who asked my opinion that going to law school is a bad idea. Lawyers in general are not happy with their work situation and most would do something else if they could.

  115. I dunno. I graduated Hofstra Law in 1981 and went straight to Wall Street. Has it gotten that much worse over the years?


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