Wednesday, March 16, 2011

Sweltering Fourth Tier Trash Pit: South Texas College of Law

Tuition: For the 2010-2011 school year, a full-time law student at this commode will be charged $26,340 in tuition and fees. By private law school standards, this is actually a reasonable cost.

Estimated Cost of Attendance: The cess pool estimates that the nine-month COA will amount to $49,640 – for the current school year. However, actual students will require room and board, personal and transportation expenses for twelve months. Taking this into account, we reach a more accurate COA figure of $56,473. Who doesn’t have that type of money to invest in their “education,” right?!

Ranking: According to Pussy Bob Morse and US News & World Report, this school is now “unranked.” The commode is located in what was – until Monday night - referred to as USN&WR’s fourth tier. Luckily, Morse does not own the terms “third tier” or “fourth tier.” The ball-less director of US News’s Research Department has simply chosen to no longer refer to fourth tier law schools as fourth tier.

Supposed Employment and Starting Salary Statistics: The toilet’s “career resources center” asserts that 88% of its Class of 2008 was employed within nine months of graduation. Then again, if one is working in the lumber department at Lowe’s, they are considered “employed” for the purposes of US News, ABA and NALP. This is also the case for JDs tending bar at the Lone Star Saloon - or serving as hostess at The River Oaks Grill.

Furthermore, the school claims that the median salary for its Class of 2009 was $71,000. The school does not list the number or percentage of 2009 graduates reported their income. Law schools - beacons of integrity, ethics and morality that they are - love “creative accounting.”

Average Law Student Indebtedness: According to US News, the average student indebtedness – for those members of STCL’s Class of 2010 who incurred law school debt – was $104,862. Fully 91 percent of this particular graduating class took on such NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt.

Law Faculty Compensation: Head over to page 32 of South Texas Commode of Law’s 2009 IRS Form 990, to see how well some of the “professors” and administrators are doing. We will highlight the five worst offenders. For instance, former president and dean of this dump, James Alfini made $384,985 in TOTAL COMPENSATION - for 2008. In this capacity, Alfini made $347,594 in base compensation; $23,000 in deferred compensation; and $14,391 in nontaxable benefits.

Take a look at how the following “professors” made in TOTAL COMPENSATION, for the same tax year: Catherine Burnett, $259,768; Frank T. Read, $297,955; Jeffrey Rensberger, $258,671; and T. Gerald Treece, $270,178. Since this law school is apparently not attached to a larger university, all of the names listed on page 32 are law faculty.

Law School Numbers Profile: According to this site, the commode awarded full tuition and stipend to 0.2% of its students, for 2005-2006. For the same year, the school provided full tuition scholarships to 0.4% of its customers, and half-tuition scholarships to 1.7 percent of the class. As you can see, the school accepts students with 2.95 UGPAs and LSAT scores of 150.

Furthermore, only 80% of the Class of 2005 was apparently employed within nine months of graduating from this pile of smoldering rot. So, in the midst of the "new economy," the fourth tier stench pile actually improved its placement rate. What an accomplishment!

Some poor soul wanted to know whether he should attend this dung heap. On February 26, 2010 at 9:02 pm, TLS user “RSN_M3” provided some gravity to the discussion:

“I work in a BigLaw firm and every single STCL attorney there tells me to go elsewhere.

According to the attorneys:

1) You have to be top of your class to work in BigLaw
2) Recruiting and career services is virtually nonexistent
3) If you're interested in anything other than litigation, go elsewhere
4) UH absolutely has better placement in BigLaw in Houston than STCL, UH dominates the Houston market. Don't let anyone at STCL tell you otherwise.”

Conclusion: This school is a fifth-rate piece of trash that consigns its students and graduates to a lifetime of debt servitude and TTTT job prospects. News flash: you DO NOT NEED to take on $110K in additional, NON-DISCHARGEABLE student debt to work at a temp hag agency - or for The Home Depot. If this is the best school you can get into, then you need to re-evaluate your decision.

Do you want to be a lawyer so bad that you are willing to incur a mountain of debt, in the process?! Are you willing to mortgage your future on this endeavor? If you are undaunted by the prospects of debt servitude - and do not care about the likelihood of making garbage wages - then go ahead. Remember, YOU will be the one on the hook for loan repayment.


  1. I'll bet they have a bitchin' fax machine.

  2. STCL may be a piece of shit...but their professors make bank! Too bad it doesn't affect their TTTT rating.

  3. Things could always be worse you could be dead, lost everything in a tsunami, or not be able to return home for 20 years cause of an impending nuclear meltdown.

    But I digress, let's keep complaining about expensive law schools. Seems to be the most important issue nowadays for law grads with good health, living in a free county, and who are still very wealthy compared to most of the world, despite their debt that in one point in their lives seemed like a good idea to take on.

    (FYI I am a TTT grad with six-figure debt, but I choose not to complain about it)

  4. Nando:

    Check this out. Keep up the great work!

  5. 12:25 said:

    'Things could always be worse you could be dead, lost everything in a tsunami, or not be able to return home for 20 years cause of an impending nuclear meltdown.'

    Now do you really give a fuck about people in Japan? There are plenty of sites devoted to that. Why not get off your butt and donate food, clothing, money to the victims of the tsunami. Instead of complaining that a law blog is not covering world events. Honestly, man. If you're so concerend about that disaster what are you doing here?

  6. @12:53

    Thanks for the heads up!

    Let's hope that even those who are enrolled in these filthy toilets now decide to back out before the fall semester starts.

    Law School destroys many lives!

    People must be warned that Law School is not just a bad bet, it is almost a sure path to financial Hell.

    And the ABA and the Law School Industrial Complex don't give a shit.

    Everybody in the USA has to become aware of this, and one NY Times article, and a couple of WSJ blurbs is not anywhere near enough for getting the word out.

    @12:25--wait until your 6 figure debt spirals wildly out of control, and it destroys your credit, job opportunities, professional life, marriage, ability to get a credit card, buy a car, home. And wait until it destroys your soul.

    That's when the thoughts of suicide start to haunt you every single day, and by then you just might prefer death over the sneakin, dodging and shrinking living Hell your life will become.

    Student Loans also destroy Lives!

    And no one is comparing things to the current situation in Japan. All of that is a natural disaster, and the consequences that flow in the wake of it.

  7. "(FYI I am a TTT grad with six-figure debt, but I choose not to complain about it)

    March 16, 2011 12:25 PM "

    And which TTT woud that be, sir or Ma'am? How would you rate the overall quality of education received there? Also, is this particular school well-regarde in the locality, and able to hook up its grads with at least local opportunities? How is the relationship between the school and its alums?

    Inquiring minds would love to know.

    P.S.: I applaud your unusually-positive attitude. Good for you.

  8. I don' be knowin' if everyone 'round here be knowin' I was a lawyer. Yessiree. I surely was. Til I beat the shit outta mah court. I knows I fucked up bad.

    But if The Colonel hadn't beat that ass y'alls mights not be's 'njoyin' mah chickin. Ya grandkiddies mights not be munchin' down on a family bucket wit’ some corn bread ‘n some sweet corn ‘n mashed taters. Now ain'tcha glad Ol' Uncle Col Sanders whooped up on that sumbitch client in court?

    Check dis shit out, folks. Mah ass has gone glo-bal. Heeeeeelllll yeeeeeaaaahh! S'riously. We's in da Czech Republic. We's got franchises in Romania. And Malaysia. In fuckin' Malaysia. Can ya's bellieves dis shit? Got damn. Mah ass was selling mah herbs 'n spices 'n shit 'round the country in '52. Now, here we is a short 59 years later and we's takin' over da globe. Somebody pinch me.

    I don' pretend t' know what da point of dis remark is. I s'pose it sho's dat even a TTTT grad can make it if he jus' believes 'n 'imself. Now grad yerself a 10 piece bucket'a chickin.

  9. The Colonel has checked in!

  10. Texas is home to several shithouses with STCL being one of many. Are you gonna go after the other shitters in this area?

  11. I am class of '08 from this piss hole and they had the nerve to ask for money before I passed the bar, repeatedly. This, as I hear, is sop.

    I did well, though not top 10 pnct, I had ZERO help from career services besides redrafting my res. I did manage to find a shitlaw job about 10 months after being licensed. Now starting my own thing... Was never requested to provide my employment status by school.

    I also knew all the above profs; can't believe their haul is that juicy. This explains why profs never retire.

    This school is a well run scam.

  12. Wow. A recent grad drops by. Thanx for the insight on this Texas sized shithole. Pre-law students don't realize TTT CSOs are worthless unless you are in the top 10 students. And the schools make sure not to let them know about this.

  13. @12:25:

    Social injustice is social injustice no matter how worse off others are around the world. Am I thankful I live in the United States and not north of Tokyo right now? Absolutely. What is happening there is a dreadful humanitarian crisis deserving of urgent international attention, but that in no way makes the systemic screw-job being perpetrated on generations x and y any less of a social injustice. I'm not going to compare crushing debt to slavery, but remember that a favorite argument of slave-owners was that slaves were well-fed, given shelter, had people taking care of them, etc., i.e., it was a better situation than many suffering people around the world. But that argument can't cut out a social injustice. In any event, this isn't an issue that will require massive diversions of resources to solve (like the Japanese catastrophe); rather, a simple law providing rational bankruptcy protection and a mandate that schools publish accurate data would go quite a long way towards resolving the situation.

    @Bruce W.:

    Good info. I think every incoming law students needs to be aware that unless you have a GPA in the top 20% or so, the career services offices at many places (in addition to many job opportunities) is essentially closed.

  14. Help!!!!! Someone just took a HUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuge Seton Hall Law in the office toilet! The janitor keeps trying to flush it down but it just won't go away!


    Some poor souls on TLS have resigned themselves to this TTTT fate.

    “rdcws000 wrote:

    Finally got rejected from my first (and only other) option, UH. Of course being accepted at STCL softens the blow...

    I guess I need to go all in with South Texas now. I feel good about STCL, just a little disappointed because UH was a bit more attractive of an option, and I thought I had competitive numbers.

    Oh well, anyone else going to STCL after being denied at UH? Want to commiserate together?”

    As a student at this commode, you can onto Annotations, the South Texas College of Law newsletter. This will be such a nice addition to your resume, right?!?!

    Who can forget the prestigious Corporate Counsel Review?!

    Finally, you can be an editor at the world-famous Currents International Trade Law Journal. As such, all of your hopes and dreams will come true. Parents will be so proud; beautiful women will be impressed; and potential employers will climb over each other, in a mad rush to toss bags of money at you. [Note: actually, none of these things will take place.]

    This school is such a waste of space. Thank you for the insight of a recent grad, Bruce W. Apparently, the “professors” and administrators at this dung heap need more income and benefits. I guess, it is hard to live in the Houston area on a paltry $384,985. Imagine the horrors of making it on a mere $297,955 per year.

    Again, these diploma mills DO NOT GIVE ONE DAMN about the bulk of their recent graduates. The faculty members are paid up front, in full. You, the student, are stuck with mountains of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt, for the next 25-30 years of your life. Try raising children or purchasing a home when you owe $110K from law school. If you are not making serious money, then you will find it very difficult to re-pay your student loans and achieve a decent lifestyle. Imagine trying to re-pay $110K with an annual income of $35K-$45K per year.

  16. South Texas? Scraping the bottom of the barrel are we? I never even heard of this dump until I stumbled on here. Who would be desperate enough to even apply to this thing?

    1. STCL is very well known in Texas. Most judges in Harris County are STCL grads. STCL is designed for people to go out and start their own practice in the law, not go to big law firms. Big law firms are shrinking anyway because of Texas Tort reform.

    2. Sounds like someone couldn't get a good enough LSAT score to get into a decent school and is now taking it out on the internet... what a big man you are!

  17. Nando,

    I have found your post very insightful, and have a question I'm sure you could answer.

    What is the current unemployment rate for lawyers in the United States?
    I have searched quite a bit for this statistic, but have been unable to get a reliable figure.

  18. Does anyone have something nice to say about this place? I mean, everyone is ragging on this school. My ex is applying to get in there. If it's a terrible choice part of me wants to warn him.

  19. Innocence Project professor pulled from class

    "A Northwestern University journalism professor whose students are credited with helping to free more than 10 innocent men from prison — including death row — has been pulled from the class that made him famous amid allegations of ethics violations."

  20. Nando, I just published a new post with money saving websites and tips. I think you may find it useful!

  21. Can we get a new toilet please? This one has been stinking up the place for a few days now. Thanks.

  22. J-dog; you would need to do a lot better than top 20 to get career services attention at this place. Apparently I hear large donations are another way to get ahead at my alma mater.

    There is nothing nice about this place. I hated nearly every minute of it. My class was full of the distillation of the most arrogant of douche bags whom were not to be trusted at any cost. I had acquaintances, but currently stay in touch with no one. From the day I started my class materialized a myriad of high-schoolish cliques full of ppl who attended undergrad together. This is also an AnM pit; and those ppl are zombies.

    BTW they tossed out 1/3 of my first year class for flunking out; since they let everyone in. Oooops, there goes 20 plus k. Que lastima.

  23. Yes siree, if you're not in the top three, you're not worth career service's time at my school either. Which makes it even more amusing to see those tools who were at the top of the class, and fawned over by the career services director who convinced them their future consisted of six-figure salaries right out of law school working as insurance adjuster -- a job also done by my former babysitter's daughter, who graduated from beauty school. Hahahahaha!

  24. Your posts all remind me of law school recruiting efforts. They promise you hookers and blow in the beginning and slowly reveal how fucked you are.

    Pre-1L: Come on over! All your wildest dreams will come true if you enroll here. corporate law, federal clerkships, the sky is the limit! Just sign on the dotted line here...

    1L Orientation: Congrats on joining our law school. You're not guaranteed a six figure job or federal clerkship, but work hard and you will be set for life.

    Post-2L OCI: You struck out at OCI? Don't worry about it, you still have a year and a half to find a job.

    3L: Still jobless? Well, it's a tough market right now for legal jobs. However, many firms hire once you pass the bar exam.

    Post Graduation, Post Bar-Exam: Go fuck yourself cockass, you already graduated from here, we're not helping your lazy ass anymore. The only reason you can't get a job is because you did not study hard enough in your classes. Btw, have you tried networking?

  25. @ 10:56 pm,

    “Given the job environment today, Lawyers can consider themselves quite lucky, as only 0.9% are currently unemployed.”

    Yeah, sure this is the case - and Salma Hayek just scratched up my torso and locked her ankles TIGHT around my waist. Remember that humorist and author Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens said the following - “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics.”

    As you can see, the JD Class of 2009 had 44,000 graduates – competing for 28,901 jobs requiring a law degree. (Hint: not all of these jobs are attorney positions.)

    In the last 5 years listed, i.e. 2004-2005 to 2008-2009, a total of 217,665 JDs were awarded. Over the course of the last ten years, 411,238 law degrees were handed out. In the last 20 years, 804,052 people received a JD, from an American law school.

    From 1980-1981 to 2008-2009 – a span of 29 years - a cumulative total of 1,127,235 law degrees were awarded by ABA-accredited law schools. Yes, ONE MILLION, ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY-SEVEN THOUSAND, TWO HUNDRED AND THIRTY FIVE law degrees have been issued in the last 29 years, in the United States. Can anyone say that there is not a glut of attorneys out there?!?!

    The U.S. Department of Labor provides the above BLS data. This is the most recent info I could find. As of December 2009, the Bureau estimated that 556,790 people were working as attorneys, in the United States. As you can see from the NALP data above, 1,127,235 received law degrees from ABA-accredited schools - in the last 29 years!! (I would not put much stock in the mean salary published. This figure may be skewed by a high reliance among Biglaw associate and partner incomes.)

    Keep in mind that many JDs and licensed attorneys end up leaving this garbage “profession” within 5-10 years. MANY realize that they cannot make a living practicing law. Tons recognize that they would rather do almost anything other than practice law, for a living. For instance, many cannot handle the constant stress, long hours, demanding nature and minutiae involved in legal work. Lawyers are often awkward and have little to no social skills. You should also note that many of the 556,790 attorneys are self-employed - including dinosaurs who are still practicing into their late 70s and beyond.


    Under Projections Data, BLS notes that, in 2008, there were 759,200 attorneys in the United States - of which roughly 26% were self-employed. The Department prognosticates that there will be 857,700 lawyers in 2018. This means that there will be an additional 98,500 lawyers in the span of ten years. Again, keep in mind the HUGE law classes noted above. It is reasonable to calculate that roughly 450,000 people will receive a JD - from an ABA-accredited law school - between 2008 and 2018.

    Simply put, we are producing FAR TOO MANY graduates for the available number of attorney positions. Will enough attorneys leave the field to provide work for most of the JDs who graduate in this time span?!

    Keep in mind that foreign lawyers and non-lawyers are now engaging in American legal discovery work. See ABA “Ethics” Opinion 08-451. Also, look at LPOs such as Pangea3, which are running doc review in India.

    The New York Times reports that “armies of expensive lawyers” are being replaced by cheaper software. How will this development affect future attorneys?! The answer is pretty simple and straightforward.

    To Bruce W.,

    The LSN profile I linked to states that the 1L attrition rate - for the Class of 2008 - was only 6.6 percent. It seems that a fair amount did transfer out of that TTTT. Perhaps the school is providing false or manipulated info to others. Because that would be unprecedented for a law school, right?! By the way, this school has HUGE first-year classes.

    Sue Anybody,

    It is occasionally satisfying to see former gunners and insufferable former classmates now working as claims adjusters. By the way, honest Third Tier Drake graduates and students will tell you that the CSO is only interested in making sure that the top ten students get jobs.

    Here is a profile of one such graduate of Third Tier Drake. Mr. Randall was on law review, and was involved in numerous student organizations. He also graduated with high honors. I recall this guy telling everyone how he would go onto be a federal court clerk and then make Big Money as a corporate lawyer.

    His current position - which he has held for the last 20 months - is “Senior Commercial Claims Representative at Nationwide Agribusiness Insurance Company.” He is a claims adjuster. How the “mighty” have fallen.

  27. Classic stuff. I must say this particular thread has gotten its "second wind."

    Where are the apologists/trolls/shills? It's just not the same without 'em.

  28. Nando,

    Florida Coastal School of Law has recently offered me a ten thousand dollar a year scholarship to attend starting in the fall, and I am a bit skeptical, considering the fact that they offered me the scholarship before I even applied!
    What is your take on this? Why would a law school that I have never even contacted (much less applied to) offer me a scholarship? Is Florida Coastal a complete scam?

  29. Nando, great comment today at 9:26AM. Every law school class has a jerk like Mr. Randall who brags about having connections, grades and the background to be a millionaire within 5 years of graduating law school. In my class we had a guy who went to Julliard undergrad and compared himself to Pavarotti. When asked why he wasn't sharing the stage with Pavarotti at the Met, he would say that being a performer was beneath him and he thought his life would have meaning if he helped others obtain social justice. I ran into this douche a few years after graduating law school. He was rather evasive about what he was doing saying "I am working with a well established firm." I googled his name and saw he worked for a shitlaw solo filing slip and fall cases. I love hearing the "how the mighty have fallen" stories.

    Nando, I don't see eye to eye with you on everything you say and sometimes you have come across as obtuse but I still respect and like what you stand for. I wish lots of luck in the April 7 discussion. Be very careful not to explode. Be calm and rational. The law school deans will try to evoke your temper by saying "Third tier reality? what an anachronism given that there is no third tier." Make sure you call these fuckers on the fact that Bob Morse, the ABA and the law schools conspired to eliminate the stigmatic third and fourth tier designations to help undercut the tide of the scam-blog movement.

    While I am pleased with the 11.5% reduction in law school applications, I am a realist and know the law schools will only lower its standards and admit the same amount of people they would have rejected in years past all for the sake of filling those seats. Oh well, we will have a dumber bar. Good thing I am a legal malpractice lawyer and right now business is booming.

  30. 3:21- Do a little google research, Florida Coastal offers everyone a $10,000 scholarship to attend. I believe that if you don't stay in the top 20%, you don't get it the following year. It's a scam.

  31. LOL @ Mr. Randall. Summa cum laude in Music Education? LOL

  32. They can eliminate the third tier, but they can't eliminate the reality.
    Actually, I take that back. They can't *eliminate* the third tier, they can only hide it, so that it becomes a secret stealth tier.

    It seems like the tier system is most efficient at screwing all but the students at the most elite schools; If you went to Georgetown you're screwed because you didn't go to Harvard, if you went to George Washington you're screwed because you didn't go to Georgetown, if you went to Cardozo you're screwed because you didn't go to GW, if you went to Drake you're screwed because you didn't go to Cardozo, if you went to Cooley you are just screwed.

    The tier system never works to the benefit of the student. It's as if top 10 percent and Law Review at a lower tiered school is worth as much as bottom 10 percent and the smell of Popov at a high ranked school.

  33. I love seeing old law school douche bags ending up in doc review and adjusting ins. claims. That was great. I was laughing for ten minutes. Did you see how Randall tried to play up his shit as if he were making rain? BWAHAHAHA!

  34. Giving you plenty of love out here in Hawai'i. Keep up the good work!

  35. Interesting, I had to dig long and hard on the internet to find negative reviews of South Texas,

  36. ...Which leads to me post the follwoing: Please excuse the long post and please offer any advice or insight you can after reading. I'm really trying to make a well-informed decision so any responses are appreciated
    I got accepted to South Texas. Are these good reasons to attend:

  37. 1. I want to be a litigator/trail advocate. South Texas has 104 national advocacy competition titles, and not even Harvard can claim advocacy success even close to South Texas's. According to South Texas's admission bulletin "The South Texas Advocacy Program is indisputably the best in the nation. [South Texas is] always included in the top 10 in the nation by U.S. News & World Report." According to the Houston Chronicle, "In trial advocacy, Houston's South Texas College of Law ranked third in the nation." If I want to attend a school where I can participate in a notable program in the area I want to practice law in, isn't South Texas desirable?

  38. 2. I already live in the Houston area with my parents. That means I won't have to worry about living expenses. And I have zero undergrad depth. Tuition by itself is about $26 grand per year. If I was going to take a loan out for the amount of $78 grand for all three years at
    the Federal Stafford loan fixed percentage of 6.8, for a 10 year term, I would have to make payments of $897.63 each month. Even if I get a job that pays me $45 grand per year, I'll still be making $2852.37 each month after loan payments. And this is assuming I don't structure my repayment beyond 10 years. I have no desire to buy a house or start a family (I'm 23) and there is a great chance I'll continue to live at home with my parents even after getting a job as a professional, as is expected our south asian culture, and as is becoming an increasing trend in America. A BigLaw job and salary would be nice, but I’d be perfectly content working in a small to mid-sized firm.

  39. 3. I want to practice in the Houston Area, and according to's profile on South Texas, "South Texas Law is a reasonable choice for students looking to make a career in Texas." I understand that the law school's own website is far from being an objective perspective, but aren't the law school profiles by reasonably objective. I have read some harsh evaluations of law schools written by them, which indicates to me that they wouldn't pull too many punches when evaluating South Texas. They claim in the profile of South Texas "Despite being a Tier 4 law school, [South Texas] offers a private-sector median salary that is comparable to schools on the lower end of the Top 100. That salary, matched with the relatively low cost of living in Houston, paints a rosy picture for South Texas graduates. The school’s regional power is a blessing for Texas-lovers."
    All that being said, I know that attending law school, passing the bar, trying to find a job, trying to establish a legal career, trying to make good money, will all be a muddy, uphill battle. But I'm young, have supportive parents, and I am ready to fight this battle. I have no expectations of immediate big bucks, and am willing to put in two decades of hard, underpaid work, with my main goals being helping my parents retire and eventually attaining a comfortable lifestyle.
    Thanks for reading, I am in desperate need honest advice.

  40. LMAO you think you'll find a job??? Right out of STCL??? At 45k????? WOW.

    Are you quoting the school's propaganda on salary stats??? Seriously??!!

    Critical thinking, not talking yourself into a life-changing decision would be more appropriate for a wanna-be lawyer at this stage. Better get used to living with your parents; you'll be there a loooooooooong time if you go to STCL. You and a few hundred thousand other suckers.

  41. I currently attend STCL and I really enjoy it. The career services has made no bones about the fact that law firms are grade snobs and will look at a schools rep when hiring. With this said they basically told us that without good grades get ready to do some actual work to land employment. I know this is a novel thought. But just having a JD is much like just having a BA it means nothing unless you put some networking behind it to put yourself where you want to be.

    I am at STCL, I pay sticker, I couldn't be happier.

  42. "I am at STCL, I pay sticker, I couldn't be happier.

    March 21, 2011 11:41 AM"


    It's just that, along the way, don't forget the oppotunity cost associated with trying to break into the horribly, festeringly, miserably overcrowded field of law.

    Potential matriculants to anything other than elite law schools need to calculate not only the potential difficulties they can (and will) face in breaking into law, but also, the opportunity cost of the many, many other things they could have done with that kind of tuition money.

    Law is not a fun line of work, and in reality bears absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to its many bullshit media portrayals. No one is ever happy with your work, those in need of the most legal help have absolutely no money whatsoever, law schools do not teach practice, and you must, MUST cover your solo-ass with a good malpractice policy, which, in and of itself, will not be cheap.

    Best wishes.

  43. "But just having a JD is much like just having a BA..."

    March 21, 2011 11:41 AM

    Actually, that is not quite true.

    In reality, the non-elite JD closes many more doors than it in fact opens. Do not forget that, all nonsensical representations by law school shills and apologists to the contrary, the JD is UNIQUELY loathed and detested in the non-law world.

    Non-law employers will hold a JD in utter contempt if he or she seeks a job outside law after burning out, finding they hate law practice, or just can't find a legal job. All very real possibilities, by the way. Human resources types will be very dismissive and wary of the non-practicing JD, viewing him/her as a misfit or failure for not engaging in he "lucrative" practice of law. That is why the pursuit of the non-Ivy JD is strictly and ONLY for those who are absolutely, positively sure they want to practice law.

    Spend any time in a real law office, by the way?

    The JD is utterly and uneqivocally uselsss other than for the practice of law. Those who find it useful outside of law practice typically have substantial and valuable contacts/experiences in the non-legal working world to make that happen. That does not apply to most kids who are "straight-throughs" in the educational system.

  44. I would NOT be shocked to learn that the above post was created by STCL career services; I've seen some bullshit from them in my day and I smell a rat here. These people claw at anyone attempting to disparage them. They are vindictive and pathetic, and alumni.

    Funny how when I check up on a bunch of my ex-classmates 2 years later I find them either unaffiliated, in solo, or at the same desperate looking 2 person PI firm while on Linkedin looking for career opportunities... Some are in small towns and doing pretty well. But all you optimists are special. You'll love law and have a rewarding career; financially and spiritually. LOL.

  45. "[T]hose in need of the most legal help have absolutely no money whatsoever" And even when they have the money, they don't want to fucking pay you and whine constantly about your rates even though they (supposedly)read through and signed an agreement, then handed over a retainer before any work began.

    Dear Idiot Client,

    I am sorry that I need to ask for another retainer, but since you were uncooperative and wanted to take the long, hard route, I blew through the initial retainer you gave me in record time. You know, that retainer would have covered everything had you just negotiated instead of deciding to take this shitty little case to court. But you wanted to go to court, so here we are and I do not do this stuff for free. I have to eat, too, you know. If you want this case to continue, fork over some funds and stop your complaining.


    Sue Anybody

  46. Thank you for responding Bruce W.
    And just to be clear, the only thing I quoted from STCL’s website was their advocacy success info, not salary propaganda. I know law school’s own websites are infamous for having untrustworthy salary/job data, that why I was hoping’s profile on STCL would be more objective, but its probably the case that gets its info from the official websites, which is disheartening.

    You make a good point Bruce w. that $45 grand as a starting salary right out of STCL is not being realistic. Hell, I might not even get a job at all. According to the restoringdignitytothelaw blog “Last year roughly 1/3 of recent juris doctor recipients did not have jobs.” But that means the 2/3 did have jobs. It’s fair to say that the odds of landing a job are larger than odds of not landing one. So what is a realistic salary to consider when calculating student loans? Let’s say $20,000.
    I just received a notification today from STCL that I’ve been given $12,400 in a merit scholarship as a 1L, and I’ll receive the same amount as a 2L and 3L if I keep my GPA above 3.0. But let’s say I only get $12,400 once and the rest I have to take loans. So $65,600 for all 3 years of college, at the 6.8 interest for 10 years. Even at making $20,000 a year, I’ll make $911.73 after loan payments. I’d be living at home so $911.73 isn’t horrible, but it does suck. Now lets say I consolidate my loans for a 30 year term, then I’d be paying $431 a month, and pocketing $1233.66, and that is definitely acceptable. Remember, this is all assuming my salary stays at $20,000 a year and I do not get an additional $24,800 in scholarship by keeping my GPA above 3.0.

    The purpose I’m writing all this is to be critically evaluated by the people reading it who are part of the anti-law school blogosphere. This blogoshpere does a great service to those considering law school because it shows that law students should know what their getting themselves into. My question is by your calculations, do I know what I’m doing? Are there any holes in my logic or further things I should consider?

  47. Thank you for responding Bruce w. And just to be clear, the only thing I quoted from STCL's website was thier advocay success info, not salary propagnada. I know that law school's websites are infamous for untrustworthy salary/job stats and was hopying's profile on STCL would be more objective. But they likely get their info from the law school's official website, which is disheartening.

  48. You make a good point Bruce w. that $45 grand as a starting salary right out of STCL is not being realistic. Hell, I might not even get a job at all. According to the restoringdignitytothelaw blog “Last year roughly 1/3 of recent juris doctor recipients did not have jobs.” But that means the 2/3 did have jobs. It’s fair to say that the odds of landing a job are larger than odds of not landing one. So what is a realistic salary to consider when calculating student loans? Let’s say $20,000.
    I just received a notification today from STCL that I’ve been given $12,400 in a merit scholarship as a 1L, and I’ll receive the same amount as a 2L and 3L if I keep my GPA above 3.0. But let’s say I only get $12,400 once and the rest I have to take loans. So $65,600 for all 3 years of college, at the 6.8 interest for 10 years. Even at making $20,000 a year, I’ll make $911.73 after loan payments. I’d be living at home so $911.73 isn’t horrible, but it does suck. Now lets say I consolidate my loans for a 30 year term, then I’d be paying $431 a month, and pocketing $1233.66, and that is definitely acceptable. Remember, this is all assuming my salary stays at $20,000 a year and I do not get an additional $24,800 in scholarship by keeping my GPA above 3.0.

  49. The purpose I’m writing all this is to be critically evaluated by the people reading it who are part of the anti-law school blogosphere. This blogoshpere does a great service to those considering law school because it shows that law students should know what their getting themselves into. My question is by your calculations, do I know what I’m doing? Are there any holes in my logic or further things I should consider?

  50. Rey, the one thing that can't be stressed hard enough is that while you are probably smart enough to get a non-law related job that pays around 20k, it will be difficult to do so once you have that JD. And, of course, you're going to want to get a law-related job that pays more than 20k but due to a number of factors (stiff competition from higher-ranked schools, depressed legal market, outsourcing of legal work, etc.) those jobs are ridiculously hard to come by. By no means is STCL the only school to publish misleading/deceptive employment stats. But that's no excuse for such behavior.

    As for your hypo, yes if you had a job that paid 20k and lived with your parents and literally had no other expenses (health, food, etc.) then you could pay off your loans in 3-6 years, if you so desired. But what would you have to show for it?

    And again, that 20k gig (as pathetic as it may seem) is not going to be easy to get. There are countless examples of law school grads working for FREE. They've been posted on this site and others. I'll find the links and post them later.

    As for the TLS site, it's pretty well-known that it's just a shill for the law school industry. The site makes its money off of law school hopefuls so it's not going to bite the hand that feeds it. Hang out at and you'll see what a truly independent forum looks like.

  51. The only way anyone should go to law school in on a full ride or with a VERY nice job GUARANTEED, post.

    No one can really convince fanatics to not make the leap, they simply have to experience the raping personally. Keep feeding the law pig... Its just a circle of greed.

  52. Thank you dave for the for the well thought out response. It's a little hard to believe that TLS is just a shill for law schools, especially since it had this to say about another Houston law schoold which prevented me from even considering attending TSU Law School: "The city’s crime rates, the law school’s questionable employment prospects and undeniably dismal bar passage rates should all cause concern for prospective students." But what you said about TLS makes sense too. I suppose the question I need to ask myself, if I indeed am going to attend STCL, is, am I fanatic?
    I'll let ya'll know how it turns out.

  53. I graduated from STCL a few years back, number 9 in my class. I clerked for a year and now make $90k, but my extreme debt is debilitating. Do not go to this school. EVERYONE thinks they are going to be the few that make it in the top 5%, but there's a 95% chance you WILL NOT BE. Most of the people I graduated with are professional doc. reviewers. Do not take on massive debt only to have to have this smear on your resume. I was one of those top people and I still regret the day I ever decided to attend STCL.

  54. Thanks for that honest post, Melissa. We need more of this. The law schools keep publishing lies. The woman was ninth in the class. Ignore her advice at your own peril.

  55. Melissa, thanks for the advice. My question is would you have still gone if you didn't have the "debilitating" debt? What if you were in a situation where you possessed an unmarketable undergrad degree, didn't want to ever have kids/house mortgage and knew at most your debt payment would be around $430 a month for 30 years? (And I’m sure you know that if you work in legal aid serving the poor in TX, STCL repays $400 a month in student loan debt, so potentially one could be paying very little in loan repayment) Would those factors change your retrospect of not going?

  56. Oh, and would you happen to know how much professional doc. reviewers make? I know it low but how low? 15K a year? 17K?

  57. No, I would not have gone. Although there are plenty of succesful STCL grads in Houston, there are also plently of STCL snobs. My undergrad degree is not very marketable either. Looking back, I would have just stuck to my original plan of retaking my LSATs and went to a better school. I have no idea what my doc review friends make, but why in the heck would anyone want to go to lawschool to do document review. That is not practicing law. On the otherhand, if your goal is to work in legal aid serving the poor and you're confident you can strategicaly keep your debt low, then I suppose STCL isn't a bad option, as I'm sure there are less STCL snobs in the legal aid world.

    Check out the website That is the student run message board for STCL, you can get some more inside info there.

  58. U of H dominates the market? Damn, that is funny. The only thing that use to make U of H a better deal was the lower cost. That is no longer the case. And don't even get me started on the Baylor mill.

    Yale or fail.

  59. Thats a good website, thanks melissa. Good to know there are indeed plenty of successful STCL grads, albiet they are probably older cats that secured jobs before the recession hit or more recent grads who are top 10%. By STCL snobs, I'm guessing you mean lawyers/law firms who won't hire you specifically b/c your got the STCL JD?

  60. UT, SMU, UH in that order. All other Texas schools suck. If you must go to law school at a school other than those three, go for 1L year. If you can transfer to a good school then do it. Otherwise drop out.

    If you want to go JAG, be a DA, or go solo/work for a solo, then STCL is for you. A $45k/yr job is a good job coming out of STCL.

  61. Bruce: You are a joke. Everything you complain about is universal to ALL law schools. Lawyers are d-bags, and they are a product of law school. You are just a D bag who shouldn't have gone to law school. You went for all the wrong reasons. You thought you would go to law school to make money -- and all it really showed was you lack commitment and perseverance. And here you are fucking disgracing your school on the internet. Real classy, I'm sure they wish you had chosen a different path too.

    This entire blog is from people who probably shouldn't have gone to law school in the first place. There is no glory in being an attorney. It is nothing but hard work, ruined personal relationships, and financial struggles. But at the end of the day you have to love what you do. If you do, and you are committed to it, I can assure you that you will find your place even if you go to a TTT or TTTT law school.

    There are plenty of STCL grads that work all over Houston. Anyone who says UH has a bigger presence in Houston doesn't know shit about the Houston market, or maybe they are just bitter. I challenge anyone to find a predominant Houston firm that doesn't have STCL grads working there -- especially if that firm does any version of litigation.

  62. Everyone has their own opinions on what people should do in terms of going to law school. The fact is, a lot of people should not go to law school. But to say you will or won't get a job if you go to X or Y school, is ridiculous. Instead, why don't you focus on bettering yourself and making the best argument for why you should be at X or Y firm possible. Instead of crying like a little bitch you could be showing that you add value to an entity and would be someone who would add value to their clients. Instead, you display the exact opposite of that by crying like a giant fucking pussy on the internet about how you fucked the pooch in law school and couldn't out-perform your peers, and now you have some shit job or have some huge debt. Maybe you should have taken a long, hard look in the mirror and realized you don't have the sack to be an attorney and you should have been something less challenging.

    But don't sit there in your 1 bedroom apartment with your sob story and a box of tissues and tell everyone that they should never go to STCL because you failed in your endeavours. It doens't reflect on STCL, it reflects on you, because believe me there are plenty of firms that hire STCL grads, I know this school and I know graduates from there.

    What you are really saying is don't go to this school if you shouldn't be an attorney. You shouldn't go to any law school if that is the case. You should "think" for the first time in your life and not just "do" something because it is what you believe is expected or because you think it will get you money. If you are passionate about something, the glory and riches will come. And law firms are no different. They can see who is able to persevere the overwhelming burdens that being an attorney requires. You weren't hired because they could see you can't cut it, and need a less complex job. Or maybe they could just see that you are someone who will not hack it because you couldn't hack law school. Doesn't really matter, you have done nothign but embarass yourself by getting on here and trash talking a school you clearly have no clue about -- and in Bruce W's case, trash talking the degree you have: you must be the definition of "fucking incompetent" because I honestly don't know anyone who wakes up in the morning and says "gee, I wonder how I can discredit myself even more today." So if anyone is actually listening to Bruce, take a step back and realize this fucking genius is trash talking his own degree -- and then ask yourself if you would EVER do that, even if you did actually believe those things? The answer is unless you are clinically diagnosed and 100% Grade A Dumbass, anyone goal-oriented would never do something so fucking dumb. So Bruce, maybe the problem is not law school, or STCL, maybe the problem is YOU?

  63. Has anyone considered the idea that, if you aren't in the top 20% of ANY law school, maybe you should not BE in law school? Perhaps the reason you are having such a problem finding a job is not the school itself, but your own personal work ethic, lack of responsibility, etc......

  64. ^So why are the schools accepting too many law students? Have you ever considered the idea that law schools are run by greedy fucking pigs that don't give a shit about the students or the public? Now, get fucked by a goat.

  65. @Rey---you sound like a thinking person. Do not get sucked into these bitter, angry peoples' half-truths, selective recollections, and pathetic attempts at publicity via ire. If you have the right motivations for going into the law in the first place, and you are willing to work hard and not sit on your ass drinking your trust fund, you will do well at STCL and you will find a great position when you graduate (or before). Basic English writing skills (not prominantly displayed above) and some motivation outside of Big Lawyer Daddy's expectations for his little seedling, coupled with a love of the law and a willingness to correct its flaws, will make you a successful, sought-after attorney.

  66. All you quoted were websites. You might as well go check wikipedia for information on this school.

  67. ...I'm not thinking this is Law Review material right here.... possibly of the Bathroom Graffiti school of research.....


    I guess someone thinks the law scam bloggers are law review material, 1:47. They are covered by a U of Minnesota journal. And the research is top notch.

    "I'm not thinking..."

    You nailed it, dumbshit.

  69. To the blogger that posted this:
    I graduated from STCL and am working at a Top 50 BigLaw firm. I knew going in that it was a TTTT school, but I knew I could kick ass. Stop your bitching. You obviously weren't smart enough to get into a "top 8" school, and weren't smart enough to be at the top of your TTT class. Get over it!


    Hello, apologist cockroach/bitch. How are you doing today, ass-clown?

    From my stats:

    Visitor detail
    IP address:
    IP lookup: ARIN / RIPE
    Unique ID: 7545705155508616185
    First visit: Sun Jun 6 2010 4:40pm
    Visits: 708

    What a loser you are, troll. You have made 708 visits to this site, in the span of 10 months. With that much activity on one blog, YOU CLEARLY ARE NOT PRACTICING LAW. You sure as hell are not with a Top 50 Biglaw firm. By the way, the term in vogue is Vault 50 firm, dumbass. In the last 7 days alone, you have made 50 visits here.

    Time Visitor Session Referrer
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    You are not even in the San Antonio area, or anywhere near Texas. Have fun living in Fantasyland, bitch. The rest of us will accept reality.

  71. Wow, thank you all the anonymous posters, on both sides of the debate, who shared their views on STCL and law school in general. I'd appreciate any more feedback. I'm about to attend a STCL reception where there will be alumnus, any suggestions on questions I should ask them, besides the obvious of "were you able to find a job even though you weren't in top 10%” etc. I realize they will basically be STCL spokesmen and I’m curios to hear their opinions of the scambloggers and anti-law school articles in WSJ, NY Times, Slate, etc.

  72. @rey----it'd be a good idea to go to the reception. You could ask them what made them choose STCL, how they managed to land their current gig, what they liked and didn't like about STCL (every school has good and bad), and how the general legal community in Houston has reacted to their choice in schools. Remember that these aren't paid alumni spokesmen, but they obviously feel good about the school or they wouldn't return to the mixers.

    Also, you can go to, do a search of Houston attorneys who went to STCL, and then contact some of them. Everyone I've ever asked has been really helpful and willing to talk honestly to me.

    Also, STCL has panel discussions and meetings all the time---you could probably attend some of those to learn more.

    If you look enough, you'll find anti-every single school out there. Remember to take it all with a grain of salt because anonymity allows some to air their unhappiness and target someone/something that they most likely wouldn't in person. Go to an authoritative list----like Martindale or the State Bar----and locate some actual attorneys.

    Good luck in your decision.

  73. Dear Anonymous mental defect, I do heartily apologize that I worked my fucking ass off in this diarrhea of a law school, paid almost full price, and did very well-imho-though not quite top 10, and actually expected to make enough to cover my loans and costs of living, since the job stats provided to me by my pos lying fraudster school were so rosy. You're absolutely right, I should've skipped law school, which is a bullshit profession, and gone with hard science, or computers. I also should've expected to make doc review wages and to live in a studio for a decade while pulling 70 hour weeks, that's what the law is all about huh? Because out of anybody, you would know, oh wondrous degenerate one.

  74. Kids, stay away from ANY of these festering, lower-tier sewers, not just this particular one.

    Law is a PRESTIGE-based profession, and the sickening, malodorous stench of the TTT degree from the likes of STCL will stain your C.V. in perpetuity. If you must, for some strange reason, try to enter this filthy sewer of a "profession", retake the LSAT and at least go to a decently-ranked school.

    That is all.

  75. April 5, 2011 12:07 AM:

    So, you celebrate your overwhelming joy in the legal "profession" by hanging out on a scamblog?


  76. >7:11 PM
    lol nando. I always keep up with your blog never fail to entertain :P

    Always putting the SMACK down lol


    -penny cruncher

  77. Nando ... Your IP lookup is wrong. I live in Houston, work at a "Vault Top 50 Firm" in Houston, and graduated from STCL. And this is my second time to visit this site. I won't look at it again.

    Don't get so defensive. You can't expect to put up a blog like this and not have people respond. I want people to know that it is possible to attend STCL and graduate with a job at a big firm, but you have to be at the top of the class.

  78. Good advice and experiential data here, gracias to the anonymous posters and esp. to Bruce W. Bruce W, your argument is that if I go to STCL I should expect "to make doc review wages and to live in a studio for a decade while pulling 70 hour weeks." I am expecting this and trying to plan accordingly, what are these doc review wages? I'm guessing $20 per hour. So at 70 hours per week, minus Federal taxes, medicare, and SS, thats a net pay of $1,055.52 per week. Sound about right? Sobering news for those taking out huge student loans and expecting to make big bucks as a lawyer. But is it really so bad for those planning on living with parents and having relatively low student loan repayments?

  79. I graduated from STCL 30 years ago. My years there were wonderful. The profs, administration and students were all there for you. I clerked my third year for a firm with 20 lawyers and received a job offer before Christmas. I was not anywhere near the top of my class; nor was I anomaly. All of my friends found good jobs - and 30 years later have prosperous careers. Since I graduated, I've been a vice president at a major oil/gas company and general counsel at two other companies. Oh, and by the way, I even took 10 years off in the midst of it to raise my kids.

    Law school and your career thereafter are what you make of them. Stop blaming the school and take a look at yourself. If you work hard in school, you'll acquire the skills you need to learn how to practice law... no law school anywhere prepares you to go out and immediately know what you're supposed to be doing. Take responsibility for where you are... Perhaps, your attitude and your work ethic (or lack of one)have a lot to do with where you are right now.

    It's a real shame that the other people on this blog are so negative. There are thousands of other STCL graduates who have nothing but praise for the school.

  80. April 22, 2011 8:04 AM:

    Thank you and congratulations on your success. Nonetheless, this blog seeks to warn THIS CENTURY'S potential law students of the real, nasty ugly realities of the sickeningly, festeringly, miserably overcrowded MODERN DAY legal job market.

    Thank you however for the walk through yesteryear. It was charming. But anyone even thinking of attending a fourth tier sewer pipe like STCL needs to think very, very seriously about incurring serious debt only to end up with a $45000.00 a year shitjob.

    That is all.

  81. Though its not just the legal field, almost every job market is troubled right now, going to law school does make one incur huge debt which is adds salt to the underemployment wound.
    Thats why, fellow prospective law students, have a realistic plan!
    Save up beforehand, work part time and attend part time classes, go to a local law school so you can live with family, build a good credit score so you can get a better student loan interest rate than the standard 6.8%, consider lower ranked schools which offer scholarships, minimize spending as much as possible.
    I'm planning on attending STCL and getting a $45000 job after law school, which the above poster considers shitty, would be great for me. This is largely because I have a plan and can manage my sizable law school debt of (max) $65,600.
    So, anyone considering STCL, or any law school for that matter, do not financially overextend yourself, and you stand a chance of not having to put up a sign that reads “Will Practice Law for Food”

  82. curious post, actually stcl has a better bar passage rate than smu. I am a current student and love the school. I am a paid legalintern this summer at lovely small firm, after completing my 1L year. The firm is run by 1 UT and 2 STCL lawyers. I'm a fan, love the school. I am sorry to see so much hate on this page, directed at an institution I happen to be quite fond of and am learning a lot from.

  83. Frankly, I'm at STCL now and it's not great, but c'mon. I think law school probably sucks in general, and STCL is no exception, but I don't think it's that much worse than anyplace else. I got a decent scholarship, a decent class-rank without working too hard (a little better than top 20), and I've gotten solid, competitive internships.What they pay their profs is outrageous,especially Treece who is a horse's ass if you ask me, but I can't really get too upset because I don't pay that much to go there. If you want to practice Biglaw, STCL is probably not your place, but there are a LOT of good small/mid-size firms that actively try and recruit STCL grads.
    One stat I'd be really interested in seeing is what the average salary of STCL grads is 5 years out, esp. compared to UH, Baylor, etc.


    How are you doing today, Michael Poytner?! If you are a student at Houston University Law Center, why didn't you check out my profile on that commode?

    Time Visitor Session Referrer
    Nov 4 2011 3:55pm 3 actions 1m 5s
    Nov 4 2011 3:31pm 7 actions 8m 37s south texas college of law student ranks

    Here is an excerpt from the scrawny bitch’s email to me: to me
    show details 4:55 PM (17 hours ago)

    “Hey dude,

    I pulled this from your discussion of South Texas College of Law. (I am a law student at the University of Houston, and I was looking online at STCL for reasons that aren't important to this email).”

    “Michael Poynter
    Investment Consulting Intern at Morgan Stanley Smith Barney
    Location Houston, Texas Area
    Industry Banking”

    Michael Poynter's Experience

    Investment Consulting Intern
    Morgan Stanley Smith Barney
    Public Company; 10,001+ employees; MS; Financial Services industry
    June 2011 – July 2011 (2 months) Houston, Texas Area
    Interned with Morgan Stanley Smith Barney's investment consulting business, Graystone Consulting.

    Michael Poynter's Education
    Rice University
    2009 – 2013 (expected)”

    As you can see from his LinkedIn profile, this douche bag is not a current law student at the University of Houston. In fact, he is an undergrad student at Rice University. One day, you will learn the importance of telling the truth, lying cockroach. His LinkedIn profile does not include a picture, but if you email him at his gmail account, you will see that he is a skinny rat.

  85. I don't understand why law graduates who can't find satisfactory law careers don't simply do something else. I attended STCL, work for a small firm, and know plenty of STCL grads that didn't get law jobs when they graduated but instead went to work in oil & gas, human resources, software sales, etc., and all of them make pretty good money. Houston has a great job market and if you can't find a job at a firm and don't have enough about you to make something of yourself independent of a firm, then go do something else.

    The idea that you have to accept a life of indentured servitude making $20 an hour doing document review is ludicrous. If a person can't turn an undergraduate degree and a JD into some kind of meaningful job besides practicing law then it's really no mystery as to why that person is failing professionally.

    Overall, while the tone of this site is incredibly annoying to those of us that have had to hustle and scrape for what we've earned and the successes we've had in law, I appreciate the fact that it acts to caution potential students about the realistic pitfalls of the profession. However, this idea that a profession and lifestyle should be handed to you as some sort of guarantee simply baffles me.

  86. Relatively few law grads expect a nice job to be handed to them. Perhaps, many of those attending "elite" law schools assume that they will make $160K per year - simply by graduating with a JD.

    "The idea that you have to accept a life of indentured servitude making $20 an hour doing document review is ludicrous. If a person can't turn an undergraduate degree and a JD into some kind of meaningful job besides practicing law then it's really no mystery as to why that person is failing professionally."

    This situation might reflect the following facts: (1) there are not enough attorney positions, for everyone graduating from law school; (2) the legal job market has been negatively impacted by advances in software and IT; (3) there is a glut of attorneys nationwide; (4) a law degree is NOT versatile, as non-legal employers view such applicants with suspicion; and (5) the overall U.S. economy has been leveled by rampant greed, i.e. globalization, millions of jobs sent offshore, advances in technology, etc.

    Anyone with an IQ above 80, some life experience, and a shred of honesty or integrity KNOWS the score. Simply put, YOU need to pull your head out of your ass - before commenting on this site. I don't mind contrary viewpoints, but you need to be prepared to back up your "argument" with some facts, 9:51 pm.

  87. Went to STCL as a night student back in the '80s. I was already an insurance adjuster and tired of doing all the legal work for an adjusters wages for big law insurance lawyers. I passed the bar on my 1st run at it.Everyone knew no firm is going to hire a night law student out of STCL. I went solo as an insurance attorney and hired a fellow adjuster as a senior paralegal, doubled his salary, and recieved my maritime charter to advise on international insurance brokerage matters.

    Instead of hourly rates I charge commissions on the underwriting programs I place and advise on. I own the company and have made more on one transaction most biglaw partners make in a year. MY take, success belongs to those that take risk and work hard. Big law firms are PONZI SCHEMES with little chance of being paid what your worth after years of service. If a Harvard or Stanford law degree makes you so special, why would you then go work for someone else and make them rich?

    I agree the STCL stinks on ice, but every lawschool, including the so called name schools like UT, Harvard, Yale and so on are also complete money scams, they just been doing this so long and have better PR that everyone drinks the coolaid. Only go to lawschool if you already have a plan and know that the JD and bar number can add value comensurate with the hassle of getting the credentials. Where you get the law degree is less important than your ability to execute your own legal/business plan. If you go to any lawschool without a plan, you are setting yourself up for failure regardless of how well ranked the school may be. Clients seldom if ever ask where you went to lawschool, they ask about the last case you won or deal you successfully put togther.

    1. Totally agree with you!

  88. Current student at South Texas. I'm at the top of my class and have been able to reach big law. But, I wouldn't risk it if I had to do it all over again, even though I have 3/4 of my tuition covered.

    Most of the students are immature and annoying. That would be enough for me to not go if it was my only option.

  89. There is a DWI lawyer in houston on top of his game making 1M a year and he graduated from here when he was 24 years old...Hes 34 now...

  90. To the cockroach who posted on October 19, 2012 at 7:11 pm,

    Thanks for citing to the exception, dumbass. Look at the figures that I provided in the main entry, bitch: average student indebtedness; employment "placement"; and median starting salary. Those numbers were published by the industry. Get mad at the ABA-accredited trash can, for the anemic job prospects, mental midget.

  91. Do not go to this school. It appears STCL stacks sections. I've heard it from the moment I got to the school. I didn't believe a school would engage in a practice as unethical as this, but for them it all comes down to the $$$! I was an engineering major during undergrad, so I'm familiar with statistics. To test my hypothesis on such a small group, I surveyed 15 students in the section which gives us a 90% confidence level. I found, 11 of the 15 students had LSAT scores in the top 25% of their incoming class. While this is not conclusive due to confidence level, it certainly sheds light on the schools unspoken policies. If you put all the scholarship kids in one section, it is certain that 2/3 will forfeit their scholarship due to the schools policy requiring students to be in the top 1/3 of their class to retain their scholarship. This school is like prison, watch your ass because every time you bend over someone will try to fuck you.

  92. I graduated from STCL a few years back. I knew coming back to the second semester of being a 1L that I wasn't cut out for practicing law. But by then, all of my plans -- personal, professional and financial -- were tied with graduating law school. Do I regret going to STCL? Yes, but not any more than I would regret going to UH, UT, SMU or Baylor. Even if tuition were cheaper, I would have stayed in to finish the plan I had for myself.
    BTW -- I scored 165 on the LSAT with 3.6 undergrad GPA and still didn't get in to UH Law. My wife chose UT-Houston for med school so my options were limited to Houston, and... Texas Southern? No, thanks.
    I don't think STCL is worth the $$$. And that's nothing compared to the complete mind-job that is law school. Just reading this thread brings back so many bad memories of taking the elevators up the the 4th floor for CivPro and makes me shudder. I'm still very glad no longer to be in the mindfuck sewer of law school.
    I work now doing something way easier: computer programming. It's an easy, 8am-5pm job paying a reasonable $85k. And it will take at least 15 years (and rejected mortgage applications and failed federal security clearances) to get over those three miserable years at STCL. (total loan burden = $85k + undergrad)
    Like several have said above, law school isn't for everybody. It wasn't for me. I learned a lot of fun stuff, but the price of the experience is regrettably too expensive compared to having a more realistic 5-year or 10-year plan out of undergrad.
    Bottom line: If you go to STCL, it'll cost you a lot. But that's like life -- it's yours to make of it what you want. If in doubt, do it and always ALWAYS own up to the consequences.

  93. Replies
    1. You are butthurt because other people have merely pointed out that you attend - or are employed by - a fourth tier pile of wet feces. You are a pathetic fool.

      Wait a minute actually. Check this out, turd. SouTTTh TTTexas Commode of Law is now ranked as the 144th "best" law school in the country, by US "News" & World Report. This rating represents last place among third tier toilets. In fact, your trash pit shares this distinction with four other ABA-accredited diploma mills.

      That should make you feel better, sensitive pussy. Then again, this garbage law school is only one spot away from splashing into the fourth tier again.

      I'll decline your offer, cockroach. However, I will stick my finger up your mother's butthole the next time she gives me an excellent blowjob. How do you like that, Bitch?!?!

  94. People bad mouthing South Texas are doing it completely out of ignorance. The school is highly respected in the Houston area, as a school that churns out quality litigators. Outside of Texas it pretty much unknown, which is probably why so many of you are bad mouthing the school

    I graduated in 2009, I do have about 150k in debt, but I am also making close to that a year owning my own practice.

    I see lots of people had a bad experience at South Texas, to each their own i suppose. If you expect that by simply earning a law degree that you will be given a six figure salary, then sorry that is not the case. But if you have the talent and ability to succeed as a lawyer, then South Texas is a fine school to get a degree from.

  95. I attended South Texas College of Law as a part-time student all the way through. It has a decent program for part-timers in my honest opinion and if you can deal with balancing work and school, you will ultimately do well. I finished with no debt and a decent job coming out. Today, most would say I am doing pretty well. I have money stocked away in retirement, own my own house, and do the kind of work I always wanted to do. My best advice for young students is to have a plan going in. You should work about 2 years before you decide to even go to law school to get a taste of the real world. That is what I did. Do not just assume that because you go to a top-tier law school, you will have firms banging down your door to hire you. Also, do not assume that because you are not at the most reputable school that you will struggle for 30 years to do well. I will admit that it may be easier if you went to Harvard or Yale to get into a big firm, etc. coming out of school. However, those that work hard, work smart, ENJOY their work and are passionate about it, and are persistent will always find a way. Blaming a school for your own lack of planning is on you and no one else.

    1. You sir or ma'am are absolutely correct. If you want to make a lot of money, do something else, if you want to make a difference go to law school.

  96. Profile of a South Texas College of Law Graduate: County Judge Joel Baker (Smith County, Texas)

    Joel Baker, one of STCL's finest is a lying rat-fink of a career politician who is dismantling Smith County at his pleasure. Unable to make it in private practice, he went to work for District Attorney Jack Skeen Jr., who is now a sitting district judge, famous for the number of his cases that get overturned because of judicial and prosecutorial misconduct. Baker charmed the local establishment and has lied and cheated his way into political office where he reeks havoc on the county. He refuses to perform even the basic duties of his office and is now trying to hire a 'county administrator' at taxpayer expense to do his job for him. Joel Baker had a little scrape with the law... 2011 in which he was investigated on suspicion of trying to make illegal video recordings of a young woman who lived next door to his sqalid little rental property in Tyler, Texas. Baker regularly harasses and silences private citizens who speak out against him, abusing the power of his office. It doesn't to surprise me to find out that this was the best "toilet" Joel Baker could slither his way into as an aspiring young pre-law student.

    Yup...South Texas' finest: Joel Baker

  97. South Texas College of Law is a piece of fucking shit.

  98. The school is really an excellent choice for part-time students. For years, it was known as a part-time program for working professionals and it seems to have deviated from that identity over time. That is quite unfortunate. I highly advise students to do it the old fashion way and work your way through. You will have less debt, more work experience, and employers will appreciate the fact you worked your way through a tough curriculum. Try to avoid loans as much as possible. The part-time program is only 1 additional year but it is worth sticking it out all the way through. I knew a number of students that only did it for a year and switched to full time taking out more loans. Do not fall into that trap. Keep working through it and in the end, you will be happy you did it that way.

  99. whoever wrote this is some loser who went to STCL and is now talking crap about their own school. Likely they did poorly in classes, ranked at the bottom of their class, didn't get a job and is simply a "hater." Pretty pathetic. There are partners in firms all over Houston and Judges who went to STCL. To all "haters" = get a life...sorry you did terrible in law school so you blame the school rather than yourself for your poor performance, lack of social skills, and inability to get a job because no one wants to hire you because your an ass who blames others for your problems rather than take responsibility for yourself. #thatisall

    1. For anyone who comes across this page later I'll just point out the obvious: the guy above me is a fucking idiot. Especially because he wrote "#thatisall". Please shove that hash tag up your ass.


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