Wednesday, April 20, 2011

Third Tier Vomit Pile: Vermont Law School

Tuition: A full-time student at Vermont Law School will pay $41,795 in tuition – for the 2010-2011 school year. Who wouldn’t want to take out such massive loans to attend this phenomenal, elite "educational" institution, right?!?!

Ranking: The cost is prohibitive, but the school’s reputation will more than make up for this, will it not?! Actually, Vagina Bob Morse and US News have ranked this dump site as the 117th most fantastic, amazing law school in the United States. It shares this “honor” with the following other titans of “legal education”: Pace, BalTTTimore, and Texas Tech.

Employment and Starting Salary Stats: According to the sewer of law, “93 percent of the Class of 2009 were employed or in a degree program within 9 months of graduation.”

Sure they were - and Jessica Alba’s ankles locked around my waist after I gave her a quintuple orgasm this morning. On the same page, the commode lists the overall average salary of employed 2009 graduates – who reported their income – as $53,610. Why take out massive loans for a chance to make such an average salary?! Keep in mind that not all employed members of this particular graduating class furnished their salary info. Also remember that successful graduates are MUCH more likely to report their income.

Average Law School Indebtedness: USN&WR lists the average law student indebtedness, for those members of the VermonTTT Law $chool Class of 2010 who incurred law school debt, as $127,914. By the way, only 93% of this class took on such debt.

Faculty and Administrator Pay: On page 33 of Vermont Law School Inc.’s 2009 Form 990, we can take a look at how well the pigs are making out, under this $y$tem. As you can see, Geoffrey B. Shields, president, dean and ”professor of law” made $303,321 in TOTAL COMPENSATION – for 2008. Yes, Geoffrey made $278,417 in base compensation, plus $24,904 in nontaxable benefits.

Here are the TOTAL COMPENSATION figures, for the following “professors of law”: Stephanie Willbanks, $187,542; David Firestone, $176,653; Marc Mihaly, $171,642; Michael Dworkin, $166,528; L. Kinvin Wroth, $159,203; and Pamela Stephens, $150,784.

“Generosity” of the Law School: You can see that the commode of law awarded full-tuition scholarships to 0.2% of its students, in 2005-2006. The school also provided half-tuition offers to 5.1 percent of its customers, for the same academic year. I suppose that the private dump, which is dependent on the generous federally-backed loan system, does not feel that it owes its students any decent financial assistance.

Student Bloggers:

On April 19, 2011, VermonTTT law student Anya Douglas wrote:

“Wow-two weeks of classes left. I cannot believe my law school career has gone by so fast. I think this has been the fastest and most difficult three years of my life. But, in the end, it will be the most rewarding three years, and will shape how I live my life the rest of my life. I can’t wait to see my family for graduation but it is going to be really hard to say good bye to some of my classmates.”

We’ll see how thrilled you are when you graduate without a job lined up, or when you are told by employers that you are “overqualified” for most non-legal job openings. Also, try re-paying your student loans with this “rewarding” experience.

As a student at this TTT dive, you will have the distinct honor of competing to be on the world-renowned Vermont Journal of Environmental Law. Imagine the world of possibilities that await you, as a future journal editor. Watch as employers climb over each other, in a mad dash, to hire you. Sit back as beautiful women force themselves on top of you. Okay, now it is time to wake up, ass-clown.

The Number 1 Ranked Environmental Law Program in the Nation: As you can see, US News has ranked Vermont Law Sewer’s environmental law program as the best in the country. Does anyone really care about such a distinction?! This is akin to a physically unattractive, overweight woman with “a great personality.” Nobody gives a damn.

Conclusion: This school is an overpriced sewage pit. Avoid this dung heap at all costs – especially considering that you will likely be taking out tons of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt to finance this endeavor. Remember that the school lists the overall average starting salary - for its Class of 2009 - as $53,610, whereas the average law school indebtedness was a sickening $127,914, for the Class of 2010. How the hell is one supposed to re-pay these loans on such a salary? Also keep in mind that many of these TTT JDs will come out making $35K-$45K. Lastly, ask yourself if Vermont requires such a yearly influx of additional attorneys.


  1. Your blog is at its best profiling toilets like this. Though noting it ranks with Pace and Baltimore is all the information anyone needs, I was surprised at the average debt. I thought this was a school for rich kids.

    The stats on LSN are scary. Even TLS hates this pig.

    In the end, just another overpriced, private, unaffiliated, unnecessary law school courtesy of the ABA.

  2. The student writes:

    "I cannot believe my law school career has gone by so fast. I think this has been the fastest and most difficult three years of my life. But, in the end, it will be the most rewarding three years, and will shape how I live my life the rest of my life. I can’t wait to see my family for graduation but it is going to be really hard to say good bye to some of my classmates."

    Really? Career? Your law school career? Has education turned into this? Take the following fictional exchange as an example.

    Hey Bob! How's your daughter Jennifer doing?

    Well Ted, her kindergarten career has really taken off since she transferred to St. Mary's. She's been put in charge of handing out the snacks after naptime and we're hoping she can transition into collecting workbooks by the first grade.

    Once again, this doesn't denote a sound decision making paradigm. Rather it's living out a fantasy. A fantasy that will soon prove unrewarding in many ways relatively soon.

  3. "As you can see, Geoffrey B. Shields, president, dean and ”professor of law” made $303,321 in TOTAL COMPENSATION – for 2008."

    That's a lot of Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream...

    That kind of money in the middle of nowhere Vermont is just outrageous. I have a relative that went to this school. He was never able to land an attorney position after searching for 4 years and is currently unemployed after being out for about 5 years and is now working as a paralegal. You just can't compete for jobs in Boston coming out of this dump. You have to compete with BU, BC, Harvard, Northeastern, Suffolk (crap), NESL (crap) as well as all the other area schools. Why should an employer take a VT Law grad over a Harvard/BC/BU grad? It just doesn't make sense to attend this school unless you plan on staying ... err ... starving in Vermont. Vermont has a "huge" population base to support a six-figure income as an attorney. Attend VT Law at your peril, even if you plan on going into environmental law. Despite what the law school pigs will tell you, employers do NOT care about specialty law rankings. Don't say I didn't warn you.

    1. Thank you for enlightenment. I will cross it offmy list. I was actually considering their enviroental law program. Not any more. The statistics are shocking. Thanks again

  4. The law school system is truly rotten to its core. But, in general, the entire higher educational system is on very shaky ground. It's a bubble and it is ready to pop...

    I cannot comprehend why kids in their 20s would "invest" 120K for a 45K salary. Can they not see that legal skills are NOT NEEDED because there is already plenty of them? Why is it that they don't re-train for more in-demand professions, like computer science? They could just enroll at a local community college, learn to program, and get very decent wages for little investment. Or mechanic, or plumber, or welder, etc.

    I think a lot of them waste a great chance in college by studying majors for which there is little demand (e.g., philosophy, history, gender studies, poli sci, etc). I also think they fully realize this fact only after they graduate and, after having misallocated their resources, their grand solution is... go to law school and "invest" even more in an already saturated field!

    Talk about not being able to learn from mistakes.

    1. Because computer science, engineering and doctors will be bloated out soon enough. These kids will "retrain" to fields that a re bloating out. Right now is the best time to go to law school. People think they can litigate their own trial...good luck. There will be a demand for new lawyers soon enough when everyone is suing their doctor or suing for intellectual property rights

  5. Nando, I recently learned of the "schism" in the scamblog movement, and I want you to know I applaud the work you are doing, and agree that your confrontational semi-profane style is the ONLY rhetorical approach that can be effective against the arsenal of lies and obfuscation used by the education-loan complex and their legions of dupes and quislings. Broadening your palette to encompass vomit imagery is another nice touch. Bravo sir!

  6. ^the only reason the New York Times even covered law school employment stats was because of the harsh tone of the scamblogs. It was nice to see a couple of professors talk about the scam in that article.

    The thing is the scamblogs put pressure on the media to cover this. The guys that wanted transparency from the law schools got nowhere with their choirboy approach. The schools just discarded their concenrs out of hand.

    Others think if they change their tone, they are going to gain more respect. See which approach is more effective? I too am glad that Nando beat the shit out of Kimber. I stopped following that shit site as soon as she started doing Dear Jurisprudence advice columns and making plugs for scummy products.

  7. Nando:
    You should open a PayPal account. I'd like to donate (and I am sure many others as well) so that you advertise your site to spread the message more quickly.

  8. "I cannot comprehend why kids in their 20s would "invest" 120K for a 45K salary. Can they not see that legal skills are NOT NEEDED because there is already plenty of them? Why is it that they don't re-train for more in-demand professions, like computer science? They could just enroll at a local community college, learn to program, and get very decent wages for little investment. Or mechanic, or plumber, or welder, etc."


    I really think it simply comes down to the fact that in the USA most of us were raised to believe we have the "right to pursue [our] happiness," and most high school and college graduates simply don't dream of being a plumber or auto mechanic.

    Take 18 years of watching television and you see wealthy lawyers and businesspeople and then you see the likes of the "Roseanne" family, etc. and what else do you expect!

    Quite simply, at that age people, for the most part, are not doing detailed cost/benefit analysis on things.


  9. "Environmental Law" always gets me. Who do you think you're going to work for as an "environmental lawyer?" If you have student loans, you're working for Chevron, figuring out ways to get around already lax or nonexistent regulations. Otherwise, you're working for a nonprofit as essentially a volunteer to try to save some coastal region from being marred by offshore oil rigs while across the court sits the legal team from BP ready to mop the floor with you. Good luck out there!

    1. There are plenty of environmental lawyers who make good money while working for the good of the environment. Ignorance does not look well on you! People who are going to shit on others careers and dreams should stay out of the way of those of us who are actually making a difference and working for our degrading and desperate environment. Bye!

    2. There are plenty of environmental lawyers who make good money while working for the good of the environment. Ignorance does not look well on you! People who are going to shit on others careers and dreams should stay out of the way of those of us who are actually making a difference and working for our degrading and desperate environment. Bye!

  10. @9:15. "Quite simply, at that age people, for the most part, are not doing detailed cost/benefit analysis on things."

    People who have never had a real job and don't know the value of a dollar do not have the understanding required to take out the level of debt students take on today. Remember all those credit card companies on campus that gave you a free t-shirt or mug in exchange for acquiring a credit card. I'm glad I'm not in school these days. Quite simply, the cost-benefit of going to law school today does not compute unless (1) you get into a top-14 school; (2) you have wealthy parents footing the bill or (3) you intend to go off on your own and actually have the funds to do so above and beyond your living expenses and student loans. Otherwise, you're just asking to be a debt slave. Law school ain't what it's cracked up to be.

  11. "Quite simply, at that age people, for the most part, are not doing detailed cost/benefit analysis on things."

    Then, if that is indeed the case, the federal government should not be in the business of student loans. Students loans should be entirely private AND eligible to be canceled during bankruptcy. I think Nando and others have proposed a similar scenario.

    It is the ease of the federal loans and kids "insanity" that are pumping up the higher ed bubble. If the loans could be canceled in bankruptcy, imagine what the answer of a bank would be if you ask for a 200K (or even 50K) loan to attend a T3/T4 school.

    I don't understand why the federal government is funding this insanity. Maybe it is to distract the (young) public from how shitty life in the US has become...

  12. Law school is such a risky proposition. Ricardo is right. Kids spend countless hours in front of the boob tube and they see all these well-off central characters. Seems all these fuckers are portrayed as authors, book publishers, high-powered lawyers, and doctors. Even the morons that are waiters and bartenders are living in posh NYC condos that would cost an arm and a leg. After seeing all that the kids don't want to be anything else.

  13. I have two friend who went to Vermont, and they are both employed. However, when I was at a hearing about student loan debt on the Hill in '09, I met a page afterwards and we began talking about my work as an advocate for student loan debtors. He was interning on the Hill and had a degree from Vermont. It was not a pleasant conversation. He was struggling and very concerned about his debt. I have no idea how he was surviving in D.C. He told me that his internship would be ending soon, and he had no idea what he was going to do next (it was clear he had no job prospects). I hope that he has managed to get by . . . who knows though.

  14. HEEEEEEEEEEEEELp! There's a Huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge 'SETON HALL LAW' sticking out of the office toilet!

  15. Any Law school Brochure should state:

    Herein lies: Puke, Maggots, Leeches, Cockroaches, Shit, Piss,lizards, rot, decay, vultures, vampires, jackals, hyenas, anything that sucks blood, parasites...................

    in other words, your future is in the crapper, and more.

  16. Oh, but they have the "best" program in Environmental Law. Really? You mean they have the BEST? Well, let me tell you kiddies, these specialty rankings that are put out by US News are merely window dressing. Law firms do not care about these specialty rankings. They only care about the general reputation/ranking of the school. Do not go to Vermont Law if you want to do environmental law. It's such a narrow specialty that you are really shooting yourself in the foot by thinking that will be your career path. How many environmental lawyers do you think this country needs? Moreover, how many of them are going to be hired from Vermont Law as opposed to a T-14 school? My guess is the student that attends the T-14 school is going to have much better options. You'll be lucky to even get a job out of Vermont Law that will allow you to pay down your student debt. If you do, count yourself one of the lucky ones. Environmental Law - sounds good in theory, but in reality it's such a niche practice that you'll probably end up as a divorce attorney (working as a solo of course) coming out of Vermont Law. In addition, this place charges way too much money for what it is.

  17. This comment has been removed by the author.

  18. @ hueylewis,

    Thank you for the support. Some people feel that the best way to enact change is to work “within the system.” (For instance, was American slavery abolished by slaves working with their owners, to find a suitable agreement?) Such fools fail to realize that it is damn near impossible to affect significant, meaningful change by working within a system – especially one as politically corrupt as the American Bar Association. Check out “Unequal Justice” by Jerold S. Auerbach, to look at the history of this dung heap.

    While this morally-bankrupt organization is filled with hacks and pigs, these people are educated enough to KNOW that the legal job market is glutted. Yet, they do nothing to address this issue. The fact is these cockroaches could not care less about the average lawyer, or the public who backs up the federal loans.

    I realize that some squeamish people get upset with the imagery and aggressive tone. I am not the one charging students $40K for a single year of tuition at a third tier commode, or a fourth tier pile of trash. The scam-blogs did not produce 44,000 JDs – in 2009 – for 28,901 jobs requiring bar passage. We are covering a filthy, corrupt industry and are not obligated to discuss this in genteel terms.

    Evren, most reasonable people understand that they cannot make a decent living in environmental law. Those attorneys who somehow manage to get hired by corporate pigs such as BP and Exxon can make a killing. Otherwise, they will be struggling like hell. By the way, how is someone supposed to repay $130K in student loans, on a pathetic salary?!

    As Ricardo pointed out, most young people in this country do not have a strong grasp of reality. (Plenty of old farts suffer from this condition, as well. Think of the ass-clown who had 2 years left on his mortgage, but suddenly purchases a $380K McMansion.) This is a failure of the K-12 educational system. Parents and relatives also do not stress basic financial literacy. Colleges are also to blame. I have met plenty of college graduates who cannot grasp the following concepts: savings, budgeting, credit.

    Cryn, I have seen many such stories. These low-ranked law schools charge their students insane tuition, and tell them that they should pursue “public service.” For $ome rea$on, the “professors” EXPECT to make $200K – for teaching archaic legal doctrine, from the same set of notes that they have been using for the last 10 years.

    I sometimes see JDs and attorneys irresponsibly tell other law students that they should intern for legal aid. Well, working for free does not pay the bills. It does not put food in the fridge. An unpaid laborer cannot purchase insurance. Shills will often retort, “But you can put your loans in deferment, while you are looking for a paid position.” Yes, and you can watch helplessly as interest accrues on these loans. It is a disgraceful mess. Those who defend this sick $y$tem should be beaten with bamboo sticks – and then told to “pull themselves up by their bootstraps.”

  19. Ok, it's off-topic here and frivolous, but where do you find all these pictures of crap-filled toilets and puke? Actually it should concern me more that people feel the need to take pictures of such things and post them on the internet.

    I always wanted to be an environmental lawyer. It has been a long-time dream of mine to work for BP and help them ruin the Gulf Coast while regaining the U.S. public's trust in the following year. How short our memories are and we no longer care they have been granted more off-shore drilling permits. There's your future, Vermont Law grads. If BP will have you.

  20. Après moi le déluge. I think Louis XIV said that just before he handed the throne to Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. When Economic professors began to teach that everything is a commodity to be monetized and Law professors picked up on the theme with coroprate governance dictated by the next quarter's profit, students in education institutions were doomed. Now is the time to sit back and watch the end come.

  21. "Now is the time to sit back and watch the end come."

    Nothing will change until student loans are taken off the table. They are the lifeblood of the higher ed system.

  22. "This is akin to a physically unattractive, overweight woman with “a great personality.” Nobody gives a damn."

    Given that Vermont is such an appealing place, and that every decent person dreams of saving the environment from the corporate blood ticks, maybe this law school is more akin to a physically beautiful woman who happens to be a gold-digger and a sociopath. She charms to destroy.

  23. "There's your future, Vermont Law grads. If BP will have you."

    Unfortunately Vermont Law grads, BP WON'T have you! Why? Because companies generally do NOT hire right out of law school. Companies recruit experienced attorneys out of law firms at about the 4-6 year mark. At a minimum, you will need about 4 years to get in the door at a company. If you don't have the biglaw experience, that will be a disadvantage because the presumption is that if you were trained at a big law firm, then you were trained correctly. We can all acknowledge that this isn't always the case, but I don't make the rules of in-house legal hiring. Generally, the big law firms are "feeders" for the companies. The companies work with your firm, get to know your work, and then recruit you in-house. That's how I've seen it work in practice.

  24. Nando, if you could just find a photo of a pile of shit on top of a puddle of barf, THEN you would have the perfect icon for the bottom of the sub-basement, fly-by-night law "schools."

  25. The closest an alum of this school will come to practicing environmental law is by volunteering to pick up garbage and refuse at a local park on Earth Day. Garbagemen do more for the environment than any environmental lawyer that comes out of this mixen heap.

    NYC Hiring Partner

  26. "... if you could just find a photo of a pile of shit on top of a puddle of barf, THEN you would have the perfect icon for the bottom of the sub-basement, fly-by-night law "schools."

    Can you reserve this one for "The Cooley?"

  27. I found this site a few days ago. I have been laughing my ass off ever since. Thank you for writing this.

    I ran into a former classmate of mine from undergrad a couple of weeks back. He was insufferable back then. One time this creep threatened to scrap a group written paper and do it all over by himself. With like fucking 5 days left in the semester. Can you believe this shit? Anyway, he just got accepted to law school. He was strutting his stuff, bragging about how he was goign to make it big. This tool already sent in his seat deposit too. When I mentioned that I know several lawyers that are unemployed, he told me I didn't know anything. You know what? I can't wait for this arrogant asshole to graduate with no job.

  28. ^Do you know which school this tool will be attending?

  29. Actually I kind of tuned the guy out. I only remember that it was an out of state school. I think he said Kansas. He seemed excited about it. I don't know that much about law school really. Other than from what I've heard from my lawyer friends. But this ass will be paying out of state tuition. Kansas is not all that great is it?

  30. ^No. Kansas, out-state, your "friend" is mostly done.

    Total cost of attendance is about 140K, which is a steal by law school standards, and, according to Law School Transparency, his likely salary will be around 60K, which is not bad if one has NO DEBT to repay, but that is not the likely scenario here.

    It will take your friend a long time to repay his law school debt.

    You see, the big issue with law school is not the starting salary, but its insane cost. It just puts one in such deep hole that it is hard to get out.

  31. What a joke...

    Gov. Christie names Seton Hall Law School Dean Patrick Hobbs to chair State Commission of Investigation

  32. Unless you're from Kansas and plan to stay in Kansas, why the hell an out-of-stater would want to go to law school in Kansas is beyond me.

    NYC Hiring Partner: Where did you go to school?

    Idiot: University of Kansas School of Law, sir.

    NYC Hiring Partner: OK, this interview is over...

  33. 8:51 am,

    Thank you for providing that link. I have posted this over at JDU. This is just in time for the upcoming SHU Annual Alumni Dinner Dance being held on April 29th, at the Hilton at Short Hills. For some reason, the school decided not to hold this event in Newark.

    Now, I will address Hobbs’s appointment to the State Commission of Investigation. Christopher “Porkchop” Christie graduated from Seton Hall University Sewer of Law in 1987. He went on to become the US Attorney, for the state, from 2002 to 2008.

    Check out the article below, which was published on May 20, 2008.

    As US Attorney for New Jersey, Christie struck a deal with Bristol-Myers Squibb, where this corporate predator/global biopharmaceutical company agreed to pay for an “Ethics” chair at SHU.

    “You can probably thank U.S. Attorney Christopher Christie of New Jersey for the latest addition to the U.S. Department of Justice’s policy manual. The change will end certain deals like the one Christie reached with Bristol-Myers Squibb Company in which the drug company among other things agreed to establish a business ethics chair at Christie’s old law school.

    In a memo dated May 14, deputy attorney general Mark Filip told government prosecutors to avoid requiring a defendant to pay a third party unrelated to the defendant’s criminal conduct “because it can create actual or perceived conflicts of interest and/or other ethical issues.”

    Scroll down this page, to see how proud the commode is of this “grant” from Bristol-Myers.


    In 2006, Bristol-Myers Squibb Co. provided Seton Hall Law School with a $5 million endowment to create the Harvey Washington Wiley Chaired Professorship in Corporate Governance & Business Ethics.”

    For $ome rea$on, the school did not disclose that this "contribution" was part of the deferred prosecution agreement between Bristol-Myers and the US Attorney’s office. The school received a $5 million (forced) endowment from this company, and still managed to spell its name incorrectly.

    Here is the Wall Street Journal’s take on the rotten deal. This was published on December 18, 2006.

    Does anyone think that this man has any sense of morality or ethics?!?! He appointed his political hack friend to lead the state commission of investigation. This is what we are dealing with, people.

  34. "What a joke...

    Gov. Christie names Seton Hall Law School Dean Patrick Hobbs to chair State Commission of Investigation"

    This should show you that the law school scam is just a component of a larger, more complex problem. Almost everywhere, the wealthy and powerful are scamming the middle class and the poor.

    How and when will this end? Nobody knows, but anybody can tell that this system cannot continue forever and it is likely to finish very badly.

    Maybe it is just time to stop paying the student loans, save some money, and jump the ship...

  35. It is time to jump ship. It's been that way for a while and is only going to get worse.

    Problem is too many American pigheaded fools are tied down with family and a mortgage. So? Do you really give a shit about Uncle Joe and your stupid cousins? Screw 'em. Leave those people behind. Get some cool friends in a place of your choosing. You worried that GlobalCorp. Morgage is going to take over your house? Well, you probably have another 300+ payments before you get the note. Fuck GlobalCorp. Move on and don't look back, kids.

    Get off the giant sinking turd known as America.

  36. Egads.

    While I was well aware that there are indeed more law schools in America than Texaco stations, even I never heard of this sordid loo. Vermont, though, may at least be scenic. I would certainly hope so at that price.

    Good luck, kids.

  37. @12:02 and 12:19, I couldn't agree more. The law school scam is just a small part of a gigantic, festering, corrupt edifice known as Empire USA that is doomed to collapse, when that happens nobody knows, but it's coming. In other words, the "Recovery" is a pipe dream, "The Road to Prosperity" is a fraud, and young people should avoid taking on non-dischargeable student loan debt for any reason!!!

  38. Vermont has about 600,000 residents. Thank God there's only one law school in the state. If you click on this shithole on the US News ranking sheet you'll see there are 607 students enrolled at the school. Does Vermont really need 200 new lawyers every year? It doesn't need half that. If the school gave a shit about the students, it would limit class sizes to 50-100 students and chrge about $15,000 a year. But as Nando and others keep pointing out American law schools do not give a fuck aboutthe students.

  39. Hey Nando, thanks for the great post. Is there any way I can print this page in a readable format?

  40. There are two components of this blog: the first discusses the pitfalls of attending law school. The second is a sharp criticism of every law school that is not top ranked for the sake of exemplifying why law school is a scam. The comments are pure vitriol. If a school is so bad, then don't attend. If a profession is so wretched then find another path in life! Conclusion: Stop hanging your hat on something!

  41. April 21, 2011 4:30 PM:

    The scambloggers merely tell and warn the kids about the many, many pitfalls of this festeringly overcrowded, stench-filled and prestige-whoring "profession."

    We stop no one from attending the toilet law school of choice. It IS all about choices. But if even one lemming-to-be can be saved from a lifetime of debt and living in his parents' basement at 43, a life which will preclude marriage, children, a decent job with benefits and independence, it is all worth it.

  42. @4:30. You sound like an apologist for the pigs of academia. Possibly you're writing from your quaint, little office at Vermont Law School waiting for another batch of suckers to finally leave and be replaced with another group of suckers coming in in the fall. I hope you have a nice summer vacation in VT making an exorbitant amount of money on the backs of all those students that will soon be debt slaves to the corrupt system that is law school.

  43. Haha, it would be cool to be a law school administrator or dean but I'm just a regular guy working retail. Chill!

  44. $42,000 to attend this third tier school for a year. Get the fuck outta here.

  45. Going to a shitty school like the ones profiled on this blog is like paying for the privilege of getting kicked in the testicles. Except, the pain in your testicles will subside with time but the stigma of going to a second, third or fourth tier law school will be a permanent stain that will follow you to your grave.

  46. The Valvoline Dean is going to protect the public against 'corruption' and 'waste'! After all, he did oversee his TTTOILET 'RISING' to the 61st ranked rotten overpriced DUMP in America!

  47. Seton Hall is a shit stain. How did it go from ~100 to 61st? Maybe someone here can answer that question.

  48. Is Dean Hobbs from Haiti or Jamaica? How is this man able to effectively do three jobs full-time simultaneoulsy? Law school dean, athletic director and know corruption czar? He must be clearing over a million a year.

    And if his past performance is any indication, he will also be mediocre as NJ's corruption czar. How can Christie put a fox in charge of the hen house?

  49. "How can Christie put a fox in charge of the hen house?"

    Because Christie probably needs a "friend" as the "corruption czar," and who better to play the game other than Dean Hobbs.

  50. Environmental Law = Joke

    My company owns lots of property and we sometimes see "environmental law" files come through our in-house office. Mostly monotonous fines for failing to abate old leaky oil pools that were caused by whoever owned the land in the 1950s. I cannot imagine a more boring practice area. Your chances of working in some crusading "save the planet" role as an environmental lawyer are next to impossible. You will most likely be defending cash poor tenement buildings in the Bronx, with leaky oil tanks. Is the idea of sitting in municipal court fighting a $500 fine, your idea of thrilling?

    And if you were lucky enough to land one of those "crusading" environmental law jobs, you might make $35,000/year to stay in 1 star hotels and drive the Gulf Coast, taking affidavits from fishermen who were harmed by the BP oil spill-- until you realize that your clients are perjuring themselves, just to scam money from a claim.

    If you're lucky you might end up in a government agency, pushing paper and filing those nuisance suits against poor slobs who didn't know their land sat on pollutants dumped by previous owners. Several years at this would qualify you to join Big Law as a "former EPA official" who represents dirty industry.

  51. Like I said above, environmental law is a niche practice area, very narrow. There is absolutely no guarantee that you will find work in this area. That being the case, why would you want to attend Vermont Law. Your job opportunities, whether in environmental law or otherwise, would be better if you attended a better law school.

    Vermont Law is a One Trick Pony (environmental law) ... and an outrageously expensive one at that. This place isn't worth the price of admission. You'll be stuck in a rinky-dink little town (pretty though it is) for three years paying nearly $42,000 per year for tuition alone. I hope you like cold winters and you can look forward to Mud season in the spring. Bring your Birkenstocks and if you decide to grow facial hair, at least do those around you a favor - try to bathe with some regularity. Just sayin'...


    Some piece of shit calling itself the Environmental Law Institute. If any prospective students are reading this, take heed of these words. Do not go into environmental law unless you are a rich cocksucker. If you are a rich cocksucker then it doesn't matter if you end up making $35K a year. Like this ELI group. Looks to be a bunch of policy fuckheads based out of DC. Suck my johnson. Probably funded by corporate shit stains GE or earth rapers like Monsanto.

  53. elaw is big time and out of reach for the majority of us plodding donkeys who practice at the state level. Very few firms have the manpower, resources, and veterans to work in elaw cases ($$$). These firms know you need to be in federal litigation for at least 5-7 years to be successful at handling these cases.

    I believe these programs in elaw and other complex litigation in T3-2 schools (and even t14) are pointless wastes. No one...and I one...right out of law school is sitting on these cases unless they are in a dark basement pulling files.

    I would "LOL" at the firm who puts their first year associate on something like that - it would be overwhelming. After 2 years of federal practice on elaw or securities that might happen for very brilliant people.

    The good thing about these programs is what many like myself find out is we are not cut-out nor interested in litigation at any level.

  54. Oh @anon 1142

    My dear, I live in Jersey. Corruption is what makes this state go. Nothing would get done otherwise. The roads would not get fixed, cops wouldn' do anything, the port authority would stop doing whatever its job is (hehe). Public workers would go on a kickback strike if they didn't get their extra cash every month. But quite honestly, no one lives in Trenton anyways. Its a wasteland surrounded by the most dangerous city in the country - Camden. Then you come north to Newark where people will break in your car for a nickle and 2 dimes (true story).

    Christe doesn't give a shit about NJ or its crap infested law school. His goal is a bit more national if you know what I mean.

  55. Vermont would be a very nice place to go to law school, no doubt. I can imagine sitting in the law library, reading and briefing Palsgraf v. Long Island Railroad or International Shoe v. Washington and feeling that cool crisp mountain air against me. That would sure be nice. I bet the students at that school enjoy it.

    Either way, I'd go there. But it's NYC for me next year, and all that entails. I don't have any big dreams to make a ton of money, but I know I probably will eventually. I am not motivated by money throughout school. Instead it's all about the legal knowledge I am acquiring. I really enjoy getting this education. It improves my writing, reading comprehension, thinking abilities, the way I see the world. If that's not worth $130,000 plus interest, please tell me what is?

  56. April 23, 2011 12:21 PM :

    Please, PLEASE, tell me this is sarcasm, correct?

    If so, way to go on selling the Palsgraf thing. You should create brochures for these toilet law schools. Bravo.

  57. No, it's not sarcasm. If money is like a carrot in front of a student's face to finish law school with the hopes of making $160,000 afterwards, then I am sorry to those who thought they could take it easy through class. You HAVE to enjoy it. You have to love briefing the cases, thinking about them. I am thrilled for my exams. I honestly can't wait to battle for the top grade in my classes. I see it as a challenge, sort of like an olympian sees the sport he is competing in. Law school is way funner than the work I used to do. And if I do good, which I know I will, I will be rewarded in something far better than money.

  58. April 23, 2011 12:21 PM :

    The grammatical errors alone makes one curious: where will you be going to law school, sir?

  59. This guy at 12:21 is an idiot. In three years he'll be singing a different tune. I wonder if the memories of briefing all those glorious cases will sustain you, financially and otherwise, when the bankers are knocking on your door. Idiot!

  60. To 12:21 pm and 2:31 pm,

    If you are serious, let me ask you a few questions. If you live in Springfield, MA, why do you want to attend law school in New York City? Perhaps the fact that Massachusetts has one public law school helped you reach this decision. Anyway, do you understand that the legal job market is over-saturated? (This is also the case in Massachusetts.) Does your family have plenty of money or strong connections?

    Time Visitor Session Referrer
    Apr 23 2011 2:28pm 5 actions 3m 35s
    Apr 23 2011 11:24am 15 actions 1h 5m
    Apr 22 2011 5:25pm 1 action 3m 40s
    Apr 22 2011 4:44pm 1 action 8m 42s
    Apr 22 2011 2:44pm 6 actions 17m 25s
    Apr 21 2011 3:33pm 3 actions 33m 46s
    Apr 21 2011 2:48pm 2 actions 21m 10s
    Apr 21 2011 1:06pm 4 actions 5m 40s

    By the way, I am sure that VermonTTT Law students enjoy the area. However, a graduate of this festering commode will not be able to repay $130K in law school loans with his fond memories of briefing Palsgraf under a sugar maple tree. Likewise, experiencing colorful Autumns will not lead to a legal job. Law is all about prestige and image.

    Legal employers care about the reputation of a school. This industry has always placed great emphasis on a school’s ranking. Perhaps this is a sign that law schools teach little of substance. The fact is that some low-ranked schools expend decent resources on clinical programs, whereas the elite institutions focus entirely on theory. Unfortunately, firms care about prestige.

    Could you imagine if dentists and physicians adopted this idiotic approach?!?! Then again, those who graduate from dental and medical schools actually learn the trade. Law schools teach people to “think like lawyers.” Dental and medical schools devote the last two years to practice. These students graduate knowing how to practice dentistry and medicine.

    Do you see how REAL professional organizations operate?!?! They seek to protect their members, and the investment of their future practitioners. They work to ensure that one’s significant investment in money, time and energy does not go down the drain. Dental and medical schools accept the number of students to meet the needs of society. In contrast, the ABA approves law schools left and right. It allows its member schools to admit FAR MORE students than there are available attorney job openings.

    The law school Class of 2009 had 44,000 graduates. And ONLY 28,901 jobs required bar passage. Does that strike you as responsible?!?!

  61. I don't know. I am not from Massachusetts, I just moved here because it sounded fun. I actually hail from the greatest of all west coast cities.

  62. Nando, assuming accuracy above, 28,901 / 44,000 = 65% of law grads will obtain jobs requiring bar passage. Many others will go to work in non-legal. Others will pursue academia. Others will go solo and create their own job.

    So even though a J.D. doesn't GUARANTEE anything, the odds of success, while not fantastic, are decent enough.

    Regardless, there is ALWAYS a demand for a good lawyer!!!

  63. ^many of those who start their own firms are a malpractice suit away from folding up shop.

    Law schools do a terrible job of training lawyers. So much for your canard that there is always a demand for good lawyers. (Not everyone can be a good lawyer, esp. not the recently minted ones.) Also taking on $120K in debt for law school so you can make $40K as a shitlawyer is a bad tradeoff. Is that your definition of success?

  64. ^Then your problem is not with the law schools... Your true problem is with malpractice liability exposure for practitioners. Therefore, take it up with your own state legislature.

  65. "Also taking on $120K in debt for law school so you can make $40K as a shitlawyer is a bad tradeoff."

    Every professional starts somewhere. $40k is also about what doctors make right after 8+ YEARS of school.

  66. Cruggs:

    I think you make a great point about expectations. The reality though is at least 50 percent (and this is at decent schools) do not find salaried jobs or enough income to make more than 30K to 40K a year.

    From medical students and doctors I speak to, there are always 5 to 10 percent (at most) of people that get shut out of ANY residency or post grad training.

    For law, the numbers of people shut out of salaried jobs or continued real training is well over 50 percent. When there is no formal residency or post-school training, its a bigger deal and a waste of human resources. The people in the best position to address this problem are the ABA and the schools and not unthinking applicants.

    I don't think any new attorney will argue that they are worth very little at the beginning. They would just argue that if they are worth zero or slave labor on the open market, it is bad for both the profession (depressing wages) and most importantly clients (legal malpractice). Since 95% of the lawyers serve 5% of the population, society at large suffers when lawyers cannot afford to serve the indigent or fight real problems due to the high cost of entry or lack of training available.

  67. Well folks now the law school scam is starting to affect my wallet. I have been practicing law for nearly two decades. I have never had a malpractice complaint filed against me. I got my renewal malpractice insurance premium last week and my rate went up by 35%. I called the broker and asked why the dramatic rate hike and he replied: malpractice suits have risen by over 200% in the last 2 years and everyone has to feel the pain. So now I get to pay more because these fucking schools are taking in retards and giving them a JD at the end of the road. So not only are these fucking turds undercutting seasoned attorneys on fees, they are also responsible for my malpractice rates to skyrocket.

  68. @7:06 p.m.

    As I mentioned earlier, your problem is with malpractice liability exposure. Take it to your state legislature to implement liability reform.

  69. @ 7:57: How is it a problem for the state legislature?

    In the recession, desperate lawyers have taken cases that they don't normally handle and, since they don't know what they are doing, have committed malpractice.

    This causes everyone's rates to increase.

  70. you're gonna love this...

  71. "Every professional starts somewhere. $40k is also about what doctors make right after 8+ YEARS of school.

    April 24, 2011 3:38 PM"

    Having a nephew who has recently entered medical practice, I can truly say you are comparing apples and oranges. Not only does he make CONSIDERABLY more than 40K, he is trained fully in how to DO something. Ferchrissakes, he delivered dozens of babies while a resident. No comparison whatsoever can be made to the festering stench-pile that is law, in which unmentored newly-minted solos are turned loose on an unsuspecting public.

  72. From what I have experienced, Cruggs, 7:05 has pretty much hit the nail on the head.

  73. While I cannot say that a law school education (from any school) is worth the expense when comparing it solely with earning potential, I will say that Vermont Law School did provide me with an excellent legal education. I am a working attorney, by the way, and I was employed within three months of graduating. Anecdotally, I can pass on that most of my classmates were employed as attorneys within a similar time period. Also, you are wrong when you state that the specialty rankings don't matter. They do matter when you are seeking work in those specialty fields. Vermont Law School is on the top of recruitment lists for environmental law employers because the environmental law program is second to none. And there are other reasons to pursue a particular career field beyond the money you may earn in that field. Vermont Law School students choose this Public Interest school because they want to make a difference in the world. That's why I chose it, and I have no complaints as to the education I received. Not everyone wants to work in New York City or Boston, or participate in the rat race that is big firm practice.

    1. Thank you so much for posting this. I could not agree more.

  74. Any thoughts on the 1-year Master of Environmental Law program? I am considering it.

  75. Some very entertaining comments. I recently graduated from PSL with $140,000 in student loans. However, I obtained employment immediately starting at well over $100k. So thanks for your comments but just because you aren't doing well doesn't mean everyone else is too. Best of luck to you all..

    PS: my Undergrad GPA was 2.5 and my LSAT was 142. Get your ass out and work and amazing things happen.

  76. To the piece of trash who posted on April 25, 2012 at 5:42 pm,

    Prove that you make well over $100K. Who did you blow, in order to land such a job? By the way, this entry pertains to Vermont Law Sewer. What the hell is PSL, bitch?!?! With your writing "skills," it is not hard to believe that you graduated from college with a 2.5 GPA - and scored an "impressive" 142 on the LSAT.

    OrgName: Our Lady of the Lake University
    OrgId: OLLU
    Address: 411 SW 24th Street
    City: San Antonio
    StateProv: TX
    PostalCode: 78207-4689
    Country: US
    RegDate: 1993-08-27
    Updated: 2011-09-24

    Actually, let’s see where this mentally challenged ass-clown is posting from, before moving forward. Look, this moron is viewing this blog from some rat-hole called Our Lady of the Lake University, based out of San Antonio, Texas. What happened, cockroach? Did you somehow land a nice job at this school that I have never even heard of, as soon as you graduated from “PSL”?!?!

    Keep sucking on your thumb, bitch. Perhaps, PSL refers to an alternate high school or psych ward. Don’t have a stroke, because several people have legitimately ripped into this law sewer – which is located roughly 2,030 miles from you!! How do you like that, dung beetle?

    From my analytics:

    Visitor detail
    Visits: 1 Map
    Unique ID: 37414194
    IP address:
    Locale: San Antonio, TX, USA / English
    Platform: Firefox 10.0 /Windows XP / 1280x960

    Visitor path, this visit
    Apr 25 2012
    4:40:00 pm/2011/04/third-tier-vomit-pile-vermont-law.html
    THIRD TIER REALITY: Third Tier Vomit Pile: Vermont Law

    Learn how to write, and get a life, lying pig.

  77. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  78. To the ultra-sensitive vagina who tried to post last night at 10:17 pm,

    Good luck with everything, internet tough guy/pussy. The next time your boyfriend pounds you in the ass, Mike, take your frustration out on him. Don't come on here or any other site with that chip on your shoulder, cockroach.

    If you went to Vermont Law School, then the commode truly is an embarrassment to "legal education." Make sure to wipe that stranger's sperm off your chin - before your boyfriend really beats the hell out of you next time. You are dismissed, bitch.

  79. Nando, while I agree that the process of getting a legal education is a despicable one, I disagree with your position on VLS. The education was one of the high points of my life. The faculty was phenomenal, caring and truly interested in their students. I graduated in 1989, went on to become a prosecutor, partner in a law firm and have been recognized nationally for my accomplishments. Law as an occupation is what you make of it, and it is not for everyone. VLS does lack the strong alumni network which is helpful, but I feel that the education that one receives there prepared me well. I am sorry that it was not what you were looking for.

  80. FERC only accepted 8 legal interns from across the country last year… and 3 of those were from VLS. I have no personal ties to VLS, but I do know people who put their VLS JD to great use in government and nonprofit sectors.

    Nando, I appreciate your story and the time you have taken to illustrate the unfortunate outlook for many law students entering the profession for the wrong reasons. For many, stumbling upon this blog may cause a reassessment of goals and restructuring of priorities. Perhaps, even a complete overhaul of one's life choices.

    What I’m most thankful for is your effort to challenge those that are actually supposed to make the necessary sacrifices to do this work… those who began their legal research and activism in their free time as teenagers, who have had the career counsel and support of seasoned environmental attorneys, and who could practically live on the Elaw floor of that VLS library. If you’re not one of those crazy MOFOs, then blogs like these serve as a serious reality check for the disillusioned.

    Respond how you may, but I am happy that this blog exists to put reality in perspective and fortify the choices of only those who are supposed to take the plunge. Kudos.

  81. I graduated from VLS in 2000 and enjoyed my time there. Nice place to go to law school if you like the outdoors. Some close rock climbing (short climbs on schist) and snowshoeing, hiking, etc. The deer hunting is ok in that area. Some of the best ice climbing in the country is only a couple hours drive north.

    I went there all psyched up to do Environmental Law as I am a hardcore outdoors/nature guy. Then I discovered that Environmental Law really has little if anything to do with my love of the outdoors. Sure, let me toil for countless hours, days, weeks, months, in the basement of some firm on some particular aspect of some dry and boring statute like the Clean Air Act or Clean Water Act. That is if you can get such work. Still, some make it work for them and good for them. I was uniformed and unrealistic when I entered law school, my fault entirely. Blogs like this can help that perhaps.

    I ended up pursuing my other passion, firearms, and practice for a quite modest salary in DC as a gun lawyer and have become an expert at what I do so that feels good. Would I do it again? Not at today's prices. Waaaay too over priced and it was pricey back then! And folks, it remains a Third Tier school. You need to be going on daddy's dollar at this point. Not worth it for folks like me that come from a poor family and have to work AND do law school and have to come up with that outrageous price. Remember, that tuition price discussed above does not cover your rent, food, transportation, etc. What you get for what you pay is not in balance these days. Cut the tuition in half and then we can talk, now you are getting reasonable.

    Summary then, nice setting to go to Law School if you like the outdoors, way overpriced third tier school, staffed and instructed by some good folks generally, some are outstanding, some are dead weight, like anywhere in life. Prof. Firestone is worth every penny they pay him. Some other very good ones too. If daddy can pay for your school for you, sure, why not. If not, nope. Not unless you are hardcore hardcore hardcore about actually practicing in env. law and understand what that really means or, in the alternative, don't care because you are blowing someone else's money on it. Keep your powder dry, Chris

  82. I went to this school, and graduated somewhat recently. First, the positives: the environmental law program is top-notch, as are the Enviro. Law Clinic and the various institutes within the school. I went there before the "Great Recession" (clever wording, legislators) hit, so a career in enviro law with a massive tuition debt wasn't as insane as it is now--there were actual public interest jobs out there, and I was willing to sacrifice the Lexus for a Subaru doing a job that means something. Unfortunately, now my enviro law training is worthless, as public interest jobs have decreased by half, given that nonprofits depend largely on donations--surprise, donations dried up during the recession.

    Having that awesome 3rd tier law degree suddenly isn't so great. I have been out of work for over two years in the northeast, but I am out in the sticks--thankfully my S.O. makes decent money, or we'd be in trouble.

    Would I advise others to go there? NO! The school is struggling, and most insiders believe it will close if the economy doesn't pick up significantly in the next year or two. It is not worth the price.

  83. It is absolutely worth the price. It doesn't matter where you go - its what you do with it. Spend alot of my time making the Harvard law grads look pretty foolish sitting on their Harvard perch looking down at the world. Yeah you have to work harder to get that first job but if you're willing to work harder than the next guy you'll do just fine. Or you can sit around and whine about how you got bilked.

    1. The above is exactly right. Work hard, graduate in the top 5-10%, and you'll have your choice of Big Law, Gov't, or Non-Profit. I went to Big Law first, paid off the debt, then Gov't. VT Law is very highly respected and well known among all 3 of those employers. I've even hired new grads for top jobs.


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