Thursday, July 28, 2011

Profiles in Duplicity: NYLS Dean and President Richard Matasar

New York Times reporter David Segal blasts the law school industry again, with this piece – which was published on Sunday, July 16, 2011. The article is entitled “Law School Economics: Ka-Ching.”

“What I’ve said to people in giving talks like this in the past is, we should be ashamed of ourselves,” Mr. Matasar said at a 2009 meeting of the Association of American Law Schools. He ended with a challenge: If a law school can’t help its students achieve their goals, “we should shut the damn place down.”

Given his scathing critiques, you might expect that during Mr. Matasar’s 11 years as dean, he has reshaped New York Law School to conform with his reformist agenda. But he hasn’t. Instead, the school seems to be benefitting from many of legal education’s assorted perversities.

N.Y.L.S. is ranked in the bottom third of all law schools in the country, but with tuition and fees now set at $47,800 a year, it charges more than Harvard. It increased the size of the class that arrived in the fall of 2009 by an astounding 30 percent, even as hiring in the legal profession imploded. It reported in the most recent
US News & World Report rankings that the median starting salary of its graduates was the same as for those of the best schools in the nation — even though most of its graduates, in fact, find work at less than half that amount.” [Emphasis mine]

In the next paragraph, you can see take a look at MaTTTa$ar’s bravery and honor.
“Mr. Matasar declined to be interviewed for this article, though he agreed to answer questions e-mailed through a public relations representative.”

Later on, Segal blasts Matasar in the mouth – with the following overhand right:

“The jump seems to contradict one of Mr. Matasar’s core tenets.

“Can class size be increased without damaging quality?” he asked in a 1996 Florida Law Review article. “Can class size be increased without assurances that jobs will be available for the increased number of graduates? Can class size be increased without also providing more staff, faculty, books and service? Increase class size? No!”

Did Mr. Matasar change his mind?
In an e-mail, he cited the unpredictability of yield rates, which is the percent of students who accept an offer of admission. There was more than one year of yield surprises under Mr. Matasar, the largest of which came in 2009, when the incoming class leapt by 171 students.”
[Emphasis mine]

Yes, what a man of integrity and unyielding principles, huh?!?!

After consulting with others, Richard "The Reformer" Matasar decided to finally respond to the NYT article, on his commode's site. Here is the dean’s conclusion, of his tepid, platitude-filled reply:

“A school is best measured by the education it provides to its students. New York Law School’s faculty provides a terrific education to our hardworking students powered by continued dedication to our core values: embracing innovation, fostering integrity and professionalism, and advancing justice for a diverse society. I am proud to serve at New York Law School. I am confident that the New York Law School community will continue to press to improve the Law School, to have graduates who will take action on behalf of their clients, and to accomplish all that we are capable of accomplishing.”

Wrong, Ass-Clown. A school must be measured by the job prospects it provides its paying customers, i.e. students and graduates. Honestly, a supposedly stellar or superb “legal education” does not mean much – if the student is tied down with tons of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt, and faces anemic employment outlook. What the hell is the point of taking out an additional $119,437 in law school debt, for a TTT law degree, if it does not lead to decent employment?!?! In your own words, pig, from January 2009:

“We own our students' outcomes," Matasar said at the AALS program. "We took them. We took their money. We live on their money. … And if they don't have a good outcome in life, we're exploiting them. It's our responsibility to own the outcomes of our institutions. If they're not doing well ... it's gotta be fixed. Or we should shut the damn place down. And that's a moral responsibility that we bear in the academy.” [Emphasis mine]

Law School Tuition Bubble has shown that Matasar’s response does not add up.

“So full-time applicants dropped 28% and part-time applicants 11%. Segal didn’t research this, and Dean Matasar has no reason to tell anyone. At some point in 2009 NYLS’s admissions office must have realized there was a problem, and it altered its acceptance strategy accordingly.

Starting with part-time students, it looks like Segal is right: NYLS deliberately accepted more applicants predicting they would matriculate.”

Jobless JD also bitch-slapped this “educator.”

Conclusion: In the end, it is so hard to hold onto your stated “principles” when it is so PROFITABLE to continually disregard them!

On page 18 of New York Law Sewer's 2010 IRS Form 990, you will note that Richard Matasar made $519,238 in straight salary, i.e. no other compensation - for 2009!!!

Head to page 17 of this sweltering commode’s 2009 Form 990. It shows that this “reformer” also raked in $495,122 in compensation, for 2008. In fact, check out page 2 of this tax document, and focus on lines 20-22. As you can see, this independent, "non-profit" cess pool had $393,215,054 in total end-of-year assets - balanced by $194,524,797 in total end-of-year liabilities. This means that this THIRD TIER SEWAGE PIT had $198,690,257 in total net assets - at the end of this particular tax year. See how profitable it can be to run a "non-profit" corporation masquerading as an "institution of higher learning"?!?!


  1. $519,238!!! Seems like a really fair salary for this guy. Jesus. Nice job, Nando.

  2. hey nando, check out the edit of the law school wiki entry i started today

  3. I taught in a for-profit university that was run with more integrity than Dean Matasar shows.

  4. Doesn't surprise me, dona. I've seen strip clubs that operated with more integrity than Matasar shows. At least there you know your going to spend money and not get balled. You go to law school thinking you'll be marketable and you find out that you're royally screwed.

    You guys are all doing good work. Keep it up.

  5. This guy illustrates why the entire USA is going down the drain. There is no more thinking about the well-being of society as a whole; rather it's everybody trying to scam everybody else. And what's worse, the rules are such that those doing the scamming are rewarded while those getting scammed are penalized, thereby encouraging even more scamming.

    A fundamental necessity for a society and a country to grow and prosper is to put aside one's greed for the common well-being, at least some of the time. Just look at Congress and see what this country has become; just look at the Boomers and their insatiable greed.

    This game is almost up, and I am afraid there is no rematch...

  6. (I found this on the school's wikipedia entry)

    'On June 11, 1891, New York Law School was chartered by the State of New York, and the school began operation shortly thereafter.'

    And it's still a third tier piece of shit. That ought to tell you something.

  7. Nando, would you like fries with the above comment?

  8. A normal plane can sit 140 people. What happens when the airliner and travel agents overbook a flight by 50 people? Does the airliner take in the 190 and violate air safety laws by having the extra 50 overbooked passengers sit on the aisle floor or on top of other passengers? Of course not. They do the decent thing. They first ask for people to volunteer giving up their seat in exchange for an upgrade (1st class, overnight accommodations and meals). NYLS doesn't have the decency to do this. They would rather pack the plane to capacity and then some and risk that it crash killing all of its passengers for the sake of a buck. This is what happened at NYLS. At NYU Law, NYLS is also known as New York's laughing stock.

  9. NYLS, the sardine can of law schools

  10. The World Traveling Law Student said...
    Still singing this stupid song? Wow Nando. You really need to get out and find something new. You are totally sounding like a broken record
    July 28, 2011 12:48 PM

    Still singing your bullshit song? Still hanging out on a blog where the author and commenters have exposed you as a fraud? You really need some medication. You are sounding like a broken 8 track player.

  11. "The World Traveling Law Student said...
    Still singing this stupid song? Wow Nando. You really need to get out and find something new. You are totally sounding like a broken record

    July 28, 2011 12:48 PM"

    Sounds like YOU are the one with a little too much time on your hands, genius. How much exerience do you have practicing law? Do you employ anyone? How many? Got something valuable to contribute to the forum? (Outside of being a student or temping sowewhere.)

    I'd like to hear it, as much as you denigrate others, smartass.

  12. I read the comments that go along with the NYT article referenced in this posting. There are about 13 pages of comments. There were postings from a number of people with substantial experience in law who stated that going to low tier law school these days is a horrible idea.

    What was striking about the comments relating to the NYT article was that (presuming the posters were being truthful about their identities) the commenters were people with experience who had varying levels of success in the legal field. When the people who have spent time in the field are overwhelmingly stating that going to law school - especially low tier law school without scholarship money - is a terrible idea, one can pretty easily surmise that law school is a terrible idea.

    It seems that some of the law school cheerleaders and apologists assume that anyone who speaks against the value and utility of legal education is a loser who didn't study enough or didn't network enough or is just bitter and miserable. These cheerleaders should read the NYT article's comments carefully. They are not angry rants from scambloggers. They are reasonable, well thought out comments from people who understand law school and the legal business.

    Sad thing is, some lemmings will not acknowledge even the possibility that law school is a major risk. Not until their 150k loan burden meets their 40k salary and takes a tire iron to it.

    But then what would I know? I graduated law school and passed the bar and make a good salary. And would advise almost anyone to stay away from law school, unless they follow Nando's basic advice about going to law school.

  13. The World Traveling Circus Act is a phony. He thinks he's King Kong because he's in the top quartile of some fourth tier shithole. Guess what? Top quartile at a fourth tier school still equals unemployment.

  14. There never was a law school dean that didn't keep on saying: "Gimme, Gimme! My name is Jimmy!"

  15. "A school is best measured by the education it provides to its students." --Matasar

    The scambloggers emphasize, and correctly, the law schools' lies and deceptions about salaries and career prospects-- and the added insult that they flood a saturated market with far too many graduates. However, I think it is important to add that Matasar and the gang have flunked even by their own standard-- that have NOT provided a quality education.

    After three years of law school only the smallest fraction of graduates feel qualified to represent a client on the simplest matter, let alone actually try a case. They generally don't even know very much about the law. I learned far more law in my seven week bar review course than I did in three years of law school.

    It is time to dump the so-called Socratic method of teaching in favor of a skills-based model of legal education, which would probably be much more cost-effective, and which would turn out real lawyers.

    Law school should be a two-year program. It should start with a bar review-type course to teach the basics, then proceed to classes in legal writing and reseach, and, after that, nothing but externships and clinics supervised by successful local practitioners.

  16. Matasar is the type of guy that if he were a livery cab driver, he would stuff his mother in the trunk just to squeeze in an extra fare. I don't buy his reasons for nyls increasing its size by a whopping 30%. And this is the type of "educator" that thousands of nyls alums trusted? I would rather have dinner with Idi Amin than Matasar.

  17. The question remains.

    Nando, would you like fries with this post?

    Could I interest you in value or supersizing your post?

    What about a dessert?

    When the world traveling moron is done, he's going to wish he could get his old job back as a cashier jockey.

  18. Check out this drivel, which appeared in the National Law Journal on July 26, 2011:

    "National Law Journal: The New York Times reporter used your administration at New York Law School to make a larger point about legal education. Do you think it was fair to zero in on you?

    Rick Matasar: You're going to zero in on somebody. I've been outspoken on the issues, and our school is an expensive law school. It's an easy enough set up: The person who represents an expensive law school is claiming we should lower costs. I wasn't surprised to be set up as a poster child, but I think it was unfair. Most of my writing and most of the things anyone can look at about the cost of legal education talk about how inflexible the costs are and how a minimum investment in a law school — in a regulated environment — almost ensures it will be a very expensive institution. I think it was unfair to focus on costs without focusing on value."

    This poor bitch - who made $1,014,360 in the span of two years, as dean and pre$ident of this sweltering dump - is crying because he feels that the NYT unfairly targeted NYL$. Grow a pair, ass-goblin. Do you think that you are entitled to such an obscene salary, while running a dump, and no one is going to criticize you?!?!

    "NLJ: OK, but if your tuition is in the ballpark of the tuition at New York University School of Law, shouldn't your graduates expect to have similar job prospects as those coming out of NYU? It seems like buying a Toyota at the cost of a Mercedes-Benz.

    R.M.: I sometimes talk about an education in terms that analogize it to a car — I give a talk to every first year student here that says coming to law school is like buying a brand new Mercedes-Benz every year on credit and pushing it off a cliff. But that metaphor isn't true. Unlike each Mercedes-Benz you buy, a year of law school takes you toward a lifelong career and the ability to practice law.

    Education is not a commodity. It's not a product. It's a process of learning and becoming more than what you are before you start. The question becomes: If you are going to create an educational product for the student and equip them with the skills, and it's going to be expensive anyway, do you want it to be expensive and crappy or expensive and good? We've come to the conclusion that our first responsibility is to be as good as we can be."

    Guess what, pig? New York Law School is an overpriced pile of excrement, i.e. it is both expensive and crappy. How is that for reality, glutton?!?! Furthermore, "education" has become a commodity, in this nation - due to opportunists such as you.

  19. Conflict of Interest much?

  20. What is it like for your wife to wake up next to such a negative nelly? Honestly, I can't imagine the torment of that marriage. Every day you obsess over a part of your life that should be over. You don't use your JD. You are long done with law school. Pack this drivel up and move on out.

    And I feel extra sorry for her too, with your rampant obsession over Jessica Alba. That's not healthy for your marriage. Isn't your wife up to par? What does she think of you talking about this other woman all the time? How sad. I feel for her.

    Nando. There is still time. DELETE THIS WORTHLESS BLOG!!! It's only a part of the law school circle jerk, and the ONLY people who agree with you are the other scam blogs. Nobody else cares or takes you seriously. You all exist only to stroke each other's ego. You all got pounded extra hard in law school and you are trying to make up for your crushed self esteem by doing this blog. Delete it, see a shrink, and get a life. This isn't one.


  21. ^ Has WTLS taken a new identity as a guy concerned about Nando's marriage/happiness?

    "the ONLY people who agree with you are the other scam blogs. Nobody else cares or takes you seriously."

    ...which is why scores of attorneys and other concerned citizens who have written in to agree with Nando? Why numerous law professors have cited the scamblog movement and noted concerns over legal education? Why countless prospective law students visit these blogs? Why real-life Senators and mainstream journalists have followed the coattails of these blogs?

  22. And they all laugh and laugh and laugh at this stupidity. And they laugh and laugh and laugh and laugh. People follow this just because it is hip to acknowledge the opposing argument. Nobody believes this garbage. They put it in the newspaper to get the point that "some sore kids don't agree with law school."

  23. 5:29 missed his meds this morning. It is sad to see someone waste their mind. It is even sadder to see one without a mind.

  24. what everyone fails to understand is these schools offer a product that allows you to have a chance to sit for a bar exam and nothing else. If the public, despite all the warnings that anyone who has the intelligence and awareness to even consider law school should know, still decides to fill up all the available spaces, then what smart business wouldnt build another building to house more students.

    The market can only be corrected by people refusing to bite into the scam and not go. this will only happen when many more people then what is documented now, fail to land meaningful employment with their law degree. Then and only then will 4th tier schools close or tuition go down etc.

    I am 20 yr practitioner who went to a 4th tier crapper and have done pretty well despite my lack of pedigree. With experience and name recognition, I assumed my business would grow over the years more then it has. It has not for many reasons most of which I attribute to a saturated market, the difficulty of practicing, and the increased shitiness of the overall population. That being said, you have to be a fool to take the path I took now with the increased amount of new lawyers, lack of jobs, and the worthless value of the degree to schools like the one I went to.

    With middle class folks who used to be content being managers, salesman etc not even able to find those jobs for whatever political reason you want to discuss, they will risk law school rather then work at some shitty job that requires only a high school diploma. Its not typically a smart move, but people think someday then can make big money they wont make working at their shit jobs and hate feeling like they are getting nowhere in life while people they know have the keys to the kingdom.

    Law is not fun. Its gotten so much harder for so many reasons, but if people still want to go, then its on them and these law schools are just facilitators. I dont see how you can shut schools down to keep standards up because the population is increasing and there will always be too many lawyers. Now if these schools are lying about their salaries, and im talking about lying, not stating facts that if misread seem like they are lying, they should be opened up to being fined or sued etc.

    The bottom line is as long as there are lemmings taking the risk to go to school, the schools can charge what they want until the market wont allow it and that goes for any business.

  25. ^^ 20 years ago you didn't pay $150,000 for the sole purpose of taking the bar exam. But if that is the sole purpose, why is every admissions brochure packed with employment statistics and faux prestigious events like international moot court wins? Law school is marketed as an "academic degree" and not a ticket to the bar exam - that's done entirely by the state bar associations.

  26. The "market" this, the "market" that.

    People need to recognize that the higher education market is grossly manipulated by the government's hand. For there to be a truly open, capitalistic market, all the "aide" coming government must be removed.

    And that's exactly the crux of the problem. We either must have a government-financed higher educational system that is highly regulated to prevent fraud, or a "laissez-faire" system without any government support. Right now, what we have are gov-sponsored student loans providing the lifeblood for a fraudulent, deregulated higher education. In other words, the very worst of both systems.

  27. @ 6:23:

    I'm in a similar boat as you (12 years out) and agree with your characterization of law schools and the profession.

    What I don't understand is what else we should have done. Finance and business operations are vastly superior to law. But assume that we could not have become venture capitalists, private equity managers, I-bankers or hedge fund managers, what other path would have been better?

    Being a corporate employee gets you nowhere. Doctors make more that lawyer, on average, but the best lawyers (by which I cound plaintiff's lawyers first and biglaw parnters second) make far more than the best doctors. Succesful builders and real estate brokers are now dead.

    So what would have been better?

    MMA lawyer

  28. I am glad I am going to school in this market. I am glad I didn't go when it was much cheaper. I am glad I can do what it takes to succeed in this market, a market that most of you are too frail to succeed in. It's ok though. There has to be some failures. Nando, post away! I can just imagine what you have in store for us next. *Rolls eyes*

  29. Here is the essence of what 10:14 said:

    I like getting fucked in the ass with a rusty pipe. I am glad I spread my butt cheeks wide. I am glad that Access Group did not use lubrication. I have what it takes to succeed. Not everyone can take it up the ass like I can.

  30. The Law School Circle Jerk

    They make their blogs
    Those fiesty hogs
    and laugh and cry together
    and through fair weather
    their friendship is like a tether
    that will never break
    sleezy snake
    the vavoleen Deans
    The lies and smokescreens
    they blog about with each other

    Their egos each other boosts
    and on each others blogs they roost
    hoping and praying
    law school slaying
    fourth tier and third
    post a picture of a turd
    that's so darn pretty
    their money gone, a pity

    Law school circle jerk
    it's their little secret, watch 'em smirk
    their days are numbered
    when studying they should be
    instead they slumbered
    now they lament
    blame the schools
    pitiful fools
    I can't feel bad
    they are so mad
    but I am glad
    I am learning from their mistakes
    the sleezy snakes.

  31. Regarding my own situation:

    I make a blog no one reads
    but I still be planting seeds
    and in the end
    a loser like me has no friends
    My bond with Mom is like a tether
    When I blow her, she floats like a feather
    My little boner she will never break
    I move it back and forth like a sleazy snake
    My mother also blows the vavoline deans
    Under their desks and behind the screens
    they hump each other

    Their penises she strokes
    An old one almost croaked
    while whizzing and spraying
    my mother they be paying
    she goes from fourth tier to third
    or so I heard
    her lips are wet and so pretty
    the deans' money is gone, what a pity

    Law school circle jerk
    when she wraps her tongue around their crotch, watch the deans smirk
    their days are numbered
    when working they should be
    instead they slumbered
    Little do they know she has HIV
    But they still have their Ivy JDs
    now they want their money back
    when they realize her crotch is black
    pitiful fools
    I can't feel bad
    they are so mad
    but I am glad
    I am learning from their mistakes
    the sleazy snakes.

    They should've paid my mother for her services.
    But they will pay.

    The World Traveling Law Student | 18th percentile excellence = shit
    BA Economics 2010 | JD expected 2013
    "Craving my mother's vagina birth."

  32. This is why I stopped coming here. You all don't play fair nor do you play nice. There are a lot of jerks here who twist my words and bring people into this who should not be brought in. I came for intelligent discourse, not for tomfoolery! Why can't you at least argue at an adult level instead of acting like a big JERK!

  33. You guys hurt my feelings. I should be allowed to call you guys names and you shouldn't resort to such attacks on my character. I can't come up with a good rationale for one to attend a fourth tier piece of shit law school. But I will someday...and it will be great. You'll see. (sob sob)

    The World Traveling Law Student | 18th percentile excellence = shit
    BA Economics 2010 | JD expected 2013
    "Craving my mother's vagina birth."

  34. Not that rank and such matters THAT much, but I am transferring to a much higher ranked school. I will not say where, but I am happy about it, as you should be.

  35. @11:00AM/WTLS:

    Dude, you left yourself wide open. While I don't blame you in being offended by some of the references made to your mother (which is not cool by the way), you brought this on yourself when you mocked others who do not share your blind enthusiasm in being a 1L.

    You came onto this board knocking anyone who agreed with Nando despite that some of us who follow this blog work, actually work as attorneys, clerks, and paralegals. In fact you referred to me as a "sheep" if I recall correctly when I remarked that kids who could not be accepted into a T20 law school should try working as a paralegal first to see if they really wanted to go to law school before investing time and money in lower ranked law school. Now did I deserve your insult when I posted that here on this blog?

    Just for the record bud, I was accepted into two better ranked law schools than the one you currently attending. I have also worked in Big Law and also worked in-house for a company which at one time was a leader in its industry before the Great "Recession". I also worked on drafting agreements and putting together deals for festivals and sponsorship events before I was downsized in 2008. The deal is I **know** what I am talking when I tell kids to re-think about going to law school, and find a back-up plan, even if they are gun-ho wanting to become a paralegal. I don’t even have a JD around my neck and it was hard as hell for me to find work outside of law because I have 15 years invested of OTJ and education in this sorry ass field. How would you feel if you graduated with three god damn degrees from 1T and 2T universities, worked three years in Big Law, worked for a top financial company for six years, and also worked for a major beer company, and it took you over one year to find another job? Seriously, do you really think having a JD from a 4T law school is going to open doors for you during this economy when you have attorneys who got shut out early in their careers and even during mid-career competing for the same position? Paralegal positions? You are going up against people like me with 15+ years of experience and other candidates from T20 schools. But I tell you what: I actually beat out two recent law grads for my current position because I have experience and I knew what I was talking about during my interview (and nope—no one trained me in my current position--my boss went on FMLA one week after I started). All we are saying is that it’s not easy out there. Not trying to be doom and gloom, but with tuition costs today, people need at least some honesty when making their decision before getting into debt with student loans.

    If you want to go ahead with your plans in attending law school, be my guest, and I do hope for your sake you make it somehow. However if you have nothing other to add other than knocking the author of this blog and those of us who KNOW what we are talking about, do yourself a favor and don’t post here anymore. Your posts add nothing to the discussion and you invite others to steer conversation away from an important message.

    Have a nice day.

  36. @12:51

    I will say I am impressed by the comment above. It's nice to see someone not resort to such harsh language and crudeness when replying. I will admit, I had some fun with this, but what I don't understand are the people who will say "don't go to law school" no matter what unless you are connected. I understand it's risky.

    As for my predicament. I am much more confident in getting a job from the new school I will be attending. It's not T20, but it's not third or fourth tier either.

    And you are right, you did not deserve that insult. The paralegal advice was actually good sound advice. It is better than the "don't ever go to law school" advice I keep hearing.

  37. I just got back from taking the Mass. bar exam. and I happened to take it in Springfield at the wonderful Western New England College of Law. Aside from the lack of bodies in Boston, the school seemed like a step above a community college. Seriously. I spent about 2 days studying at the school and I just got the impression that it was absolutely marginal in every way. There are no places to eat near the school worth talking about and it borders a bad area of Springfield. Unless you live in the area and plan to stay there and work for yourself, why would you want to attend this school is beyond me. I would have put a gun to my head if I had to stay at this school for 3 years.

    World Traveling Dipshit in the Top 18%, I hope you enjoy your 2L year at your commode. Looking forward to seeing how well you do with on your upcoming on-campus interviews, IF ANY. Let's see if you can put your money where your big, fat fucking mouth is.

  38. I'm transferring to another school. Can you not read? I told you this already. Dang.

    Also, I am not doing OCI at WNE, as I will be transferring. Holy crap. Reading comprehension here sucks.

    The school, however, does have a nice campus. You have to give it that. I hope you passed your bar, but with the reading comprehension you had, I am sorry to say I think you probably did not. What a waste.

  39. No it doesn't have a nice campus. It sucks. Like I said, it seemed like a small step above a community college. And by the way, I've already passed the bar. I'm already an attorney, unlike you. I was merely taking the Mass. bar so I can move back. I just got back home a few hours ago, so sorry I wasn't able to read the entire thread. Either way, you're still an idiot.


    “We have a copy of the letter Dean Matasar sent around to faculty; it is reprinted in full below. In the letter, he mentions that his time as a law school dean has made him concerned with larger issues facing higher eduction. I’ve met Dean Matasar and my impression was certainly of a man who is concerned about the value proposition offered to students who are paying today’s inflated tuition rates.

    Let’s hope that Dean Matasar finds himself in a position where he can effect some positive change. And good luck to NYLS as they search for a new dean.”

    Take a look at this email that a former NLY$ student wrote to MaTTTa$ar:

    Date: Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 11:21 AM
    Subject: Letter from an '02 almunus

    Dear Mr. Matasar:

    My name Is . I am a 2002 graduate of New York Law School, and I am admitted to practice in both New York and New Jersey.

    I am writing to encapsulate and memorialize my disappointment with both you and New York Law School in general. I'm terribly disappointed with how my legal "career" has played out in the seven years since I graduated, and I was shocked and outraged to hear that you concurrently serve as Dean of NYLS AND as Chairman of the Access Group (a CLEAR conflict of interest that should be addressed by the ABA and New York Bar Ethics Committee).

    In short, my NYLS degree is not worth the incredibly high price tag that I paid for it, using student loan funds I obtained from your Access Group. I was unable to ever obtain a permanent legal job that would pay me enough to both service my student loan debt and put food on my table. This was not for lack of trying; I utilized Attorney Resume and paid top dollar to have my resume written and gain access to almost 1,000 law firms' contact information, only to be rejected by EVERY firm to which I sent my resume. (That's correct: almost 1,000 REJECTIONS - both affirmative rejections and "trashcan rejections," where they didn't write back. Not even ONE interview.)”

    Why take out an additional $110K-$150K - in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt - for such a worthless credential?!

  41. Honestly, Nando, I still can't decide whether WTLS is for real or pulling a Colbert.

    Hoping it's the latter.

  42. "It is better than the "don't ever go to law school" advice I keep hearing.

    July 29, 2011 12:59 PM "

    Nevetheless, my advice is "Don't ever go to law school."

  43. "Honestly, Nando, I still can't decide whether WTLS is for real or pulling a Colbert.

    Hoping it's the latter.

    July 29, 2011 3:14 PM"

    Me too on that one. I see traces of possible satire now and then. Although now I think we are seeing the "second wave", wherein impostors are stepping in, some doing a rather humorous job.

  44. ^ I agree. I'm starting to think this guy is a sham or at the very least 100% weirdo.


    Hello, you moronic piece of trash. How are you doing today, cockroach?!?! Are you enjoying the summer in Springfield, MA?

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    As you can see, this pathetic loser is responsible for the asinine comments posted this morning at 4:38 am, 5:29 am, 10:14 am, 10:22 am, 11:00 am, 12:23 pm, 12:59 pm, and 2:33 pm. Ten visits accounting for eight comments, in the span of 9 hours and 55 minutes. You must have a wonderful life, bitch. Is this how you pass your time, at your supposed unpaid internship?! Actually, you claimed to have a second internship, ass-hat.

    “Anonymous said…

    Not only do I carry a top 18% class rank but a keen sense of humor. While you may think that this upsets me, it does not. It only makes me smile. You see, today I was able to land a 2nd summer internship. I talked to a judge from my school. So far that's 3 people I have met this summer who have had nothing but success from my 4th tier school. Interesting, isn't it?

    The World Traveling Law Student

    July 14, 2011 9:42 am”

    How are those two (unpaid) summer internships working out for you, douche-bag? By the way, these sites are simply asking potential law students to look at law school as strictly a FINANCIAL decision. Do you understand that now, Bitch?!?!

  46. I don't understand it. Can you repeat please? Also, I am enjoying my summer, 2 internships, and upcoming transfer very much. The month long trip to Central America was also very relaxing. Looking forward to the big move. How about you?

  47. I am another 20 year plus veteran attorney. Success is relative so I will spare the readers of any self praise on my career accomplishments. A couple of points need to be made.

    1) I graduated from a T25 school. I did not know anyone who attended NYLS when I went to law school. I do know that it used to attract former cops and folks who wanted to embark on a 2nd or 3rd career (the non-traditonal students). Most of these folks had their JDs paid for by their employers. We are talking about circa 1980s. I was recently shocked to hear that NYLS charges more than Harvard or NYU law school. There is no justification for this obscene pricetag. I can only speculate that pure greed is behind the grossly high tuition rate. Nowadays it seems that NYLS attracts marginal law school candidates who come from well to do families. Here is the rub: These same students could attend CUNY law school for under $10K a year and get the same degree as CUNY and NYLS are in the same gutter league. The CUNY grad is actually smarter for paying much less for basically the same worthless diploma. I have worked at a couple of Biglaw firms in NYC, none employed NYLS grads. To take out six figures in loans to obtain a NYLS JD for non-existent job prospects in the legal market is insane and self-loathing.

    2) I know several 2011 grads that just took the bar exam with no jobs lined up. Unfortunately, if they are lucky, maybe they will get doc review gigs once they pass the bar, which I hear are in great demand, even the $15-18/hr. projects. You cannot live on your own in the NYC metro area, eat and service your loans on that salary. Health insurance is not even an option. So what are they to do? Go solo? It seems many people are going solo but doing it the wrong way (e.g., setting up virtual offices, no secretary, meeting clients at a Starbucks, etc.). First, these kids don't know how to practice and due to their inexperience will undercut other seasoned attorneys on fees. I recently had dinner with an district ethics chair who told me that there is mounting pressure from the older attorneys to crack down on newbies. I predict a lot of young attorneys will be disciplined via suspension or disbarment.

    I would not recommend law school to anyone right now. 20 years ago, maybe. Today, it is suicide to attend unless you get into a top program and have a scholarship. Regardless of what another inexperienced poster mentioned, connections in the legal profession matter tremendously, especially bloodlines. Generation Y kids are as arrogant as the Italian Army redshirts. They will rush into law school/battle even though the war is lost.

  48. I think the vet has some interesting thoughts but is not in tune with modern society. We have advanced so much as a civilization and the vet friend above needs to open his eyes and take a look around him. On Craigslist one can rent an office space for a little over $400 a month in Brooklyn. Also, one can indeed live off of $18 an hour in NYC, although it isn't easy or glamorous. I agree that one would not want to while servicing loans but the vet forgets the...

    DRUMROLL please. I.B.R.

    I understand in the vets time there was no IBR, but at the same time, the vet paid for his law degree in pennies.

    Vet, please explain to me how there are many NYLS grads with law jobs? Could you all stop speculating for a moment and take a long hard look at reality. I wonder if this vet isn't one of those other posters trying to appeal to the masses I am turning away from this belief system.

    There are many fresh minds out of law school who set up their own practices and do well. I have considered it myself. Creating one's own business takes serious research, but can be done. Go to top-law-schools and look at the posts. It happens!

    Also, when I was in NYC last there was a person in the ferry terminal setting up people with the cities own insurance program. I used to live in San Francisco and was on the cities' insurance program there. So don't give me that bologna that there is no way to get insurance.

    Congratulations for going to a T25 school. Impressive. Now get back to work old man.

  49. "Congratulations for going to a T25 school. Impressive. Now get back to work old man.

    July 29, 2011 4:55 PM "

    4:55: The experienced poster before you was merely expressing an opinion based on his travels through this "profession".

    But YOU had to get sarcastic.

    I seriously question your ability to build relationships, which is partly built on a respect and acknowledgment of the experienced opinons of others, when you have such an immature and shitty attitude. These people actually HAVE some experience in this sordid line of work; no one is stopping you from doing what you want to do--why are you threatened by their opinions if you are indeed sure of yourself? You are in fact horribly threatened by anyone with a contrary point-of-view--even when that point of view is built on experience SUPERIOR to yours.

    Good luck with that. You will need it.

  50. My life is not lived through this luck you speak of but through intense training and self-reflection. I do not think myself superior to others, my only goal is to share the truth with those who would be swindled into believing the stuff that these blogs try to brainwash the youth with. I have no ill will towards the vet, however, in war there are often casualties. I did not mean to fire upon the vet however he was a target that was in line with the enemy, that being Nando.

    I do respect those who have contrary views, but only when they bring something intelligent to the table. The vet had some great information to share, but if he feels comfortable coming back here and resharing it, my combat superiority may be compromised.

    Also, I think the vet is a liar. Yes, I said it! He is a wolf in sheep's clothing, a.k.a. a scamblogger PRETENDING to be a vet to throw me off. A spy if you will. And it was my duty, my duty as a fighter for the people, the law student, to reveal his true identity!

  51. Ah yes, IBR. If you want to live just above poverty level for the next 10-20 years to qualify for IBR, be my guest.

    $400 for an office in Brooklyn? My guess is this office is a bedbug/rodent infested dump near Flatbush Avenue. $400 is cheap but given the high likelihood of being shot to death in a robbery, you will have to factor in life insurance premiums.

    As for living on $18/hr in NYC, I suppose it is feasible if you rent a room in Jackson Heights, Queens. You won't be living in Manhattan on $18/hr unless your are living with a man who has unlimited access to your rectum.

    As for setting up a solo practice, sure it is doable. Factor in advertisement, competition from more established attorneys/firms and a race to the bottom fee structure, I suppose you can make it happen as long as you live in squalor. But hey, that means you will likely qualify for IBR.

    There are many struggling solos. You think you will be the first or have a unique business plan? Why don't you open the yellow pages or go on avvo to see how many lawyers are in your area. I bet there are more lawyers than there are mechanics.

    But don't take my word for it. Try going solo. Go ahead and hang that shingle but be careful not to hang yourself.

  52. Nando,

    Check out this story on ATL about a resigning dean:

    It's so messed up.

  53. I am honestly thinking I want to be a dean one day.

    The World Traveling Future Dean

  54. My feeling is that the World Traveling dipshit is an industry shill. Despite massive amounts of evidence to the contrary, based on actual experience in the trenches, World Traveling Dipshit keeps on pumping up the dreams of potential lemmings reading this blog. Because after all, we live in America damn it and you can do ANYTHING you want. Yes, it is true, you can attend law school, graduate, pass the bar and you then use your toilet paper diploma to stoke your ego due to years of low self esteem. But the real question is whether you can say you're happy. If owing an exhorbitant amount of money is your thing, if you enjoy never being able to purchase a home - let alone qualify for a mortgage, if you like constant stress associated with paying lender, and you like steady periods of unemployment/underemployment, then law school might be for you. As it stands, I've been out for almost 10 years and I still over just over $100,000. After working in Biglaw for 3 years I was shown the door and have been unable to land anything substantive for the past 6 years. In other words, I have been doing contract work (doc review) for 6 years to make ends meet. If that lifestyle gives you a hard on, then you might want to consider law school.

  55. If Matasar worked in the private sector his fraud would be punished and he would be send to jail, even in today's pro-business environment.

    The "education" business is the place to be right now. These scum can get away with anything in their unregulated field.

  56. "And it was my duty, my duty as a fighter for the people, the law student, to reveal his true identity!

    July 29, 2011 5:37 PM"

    You're nuts.

  57. We have a problem here,

    "After working in Biglaw for 3 years I was shown the door and have been unable to land anything substantive for the past 6 years."

    Why did you not pay off your loans quickly with that Biglaw salary? I know if I land a job in Biglaw I am paying my loans off at an alarming speed. Also, I will not live on all of my income. I would live on 30k or so, use a chunk of the income to pay off loans, and save a ton in case such disaster be-fell me.

    You all don't like me because you fear me. You want me to fail, and want others to fail, so you know you were all right. But you can't live life wanting others to fail. You just can't! It's insanity!!!!!!!1!!!

  58. ^ It wasn't $160,000 Biglaw. More like $100,000 big law. One thing students don't realize is how much taxes eat away at your salary. Another thing is the cost of living in high-cost areas like NYC. Try seeing how far $100,000 goes in the NY metropolitan area. Not very far. Did I make progress on my loans? Yes. It has become easier and I am now in a position to reduce my debt load much more quickly since I paid back all my private loans, i.e., Sallie Mae and her minions. Nevertheless, the above poster seems to think I went out and bought a BMW right out of law school and was living in a swanky apartment.

  59. If I don't land Biglaw, i'll just join the U.S. Attorney's Office or become a JAG. Then I'll work my way up and maybe be a professor one day. Who knows? Maybe I'll work my way up to the Massachusetts or New York Supreme Court. It's all about hard work, dedication and believing in yourself. Rankings don't matter that much. Neither do connections. You mark your own path in this world. You blaze your own trail. I am the captain of my ship, the author of my soul.

    The World Traveling Future State Supreme Court Justice | Top 18% at WNEC

  60. World Traveler:

    You have a good attitude, but becoming an Assistant US Attorney is more difficult than becoming a big law associate. Many AUSAs had to work for a year or two in biglaw before they got in.

    An AUSA is great experience. You have a lot of power, responsibility and get experience in federal trial practice. You also build relationships with district judges. You can then move into biglaw at a high level as one of their trial attorneys. Biglaw litigators usually don't know how to try cases and hand the cases that don't settle to the firm's trial attorneys to actually try.

    But getting in to the DOJ is difficult. I don't know about JAG. I think it is probably like being an Assistant District Attorney.

    With the recession, getting jobs as an ADA or public defender are now very tough. Forget about an AUSA unless you have outstanding credentials.

    I'm not trying to dissuade you; just giving you what I think is helpful information. I still like this profession. You have a good attitude and will, eventually, you'll find your way.

  61. New York Supreme Court = Trial court, genius.

  62. WTLS, your cognitive dissonance is impressive. I almost went to law school, but in the end I just couldn't delude myself enough.

  63. Thank you. And, that post above saying that I want to go to the supreme court wasn't me. People have always followed me, done what I have done, and tried to copy me. I know that people really are impressed with my life and want to be me, but posting as me is just silly.

    You don't know how impressive it is to be the first in your family to go to law school and not only do it, but be in the top 20% of your class after the first year and transfer to a school that is highly respected such as the one I am making my move to. Again, I don't want to blow my horn, but people are trying to be me, and I understand why. I can't wait for 2L. A new school will be scary, but it's going to be so exciting. I get another chance to be #1, and this time I'm not holding back!

  64. Go ahead and blow your own horn. Lord knows no woman will blow it.

  65. ^

    Not true. His mom blows him very well. She swallows too, as a bonus. Of course only on the days when he does not fuck her in the ass because she is bleeding or has diarrhea. Everyone in this fucked up family likes to take it in the ass.

  66. "If I don't land Biglaw, i'll just join the U.S. Attorney's Office or become a JAG."

    You'll "just" join the U.S. Attorney's Office out of a TTT?

    Yeah, I'm sure there won't be TOO many HYS trying to do just that.

    Nah. Should be a snap straight out of WNEC.

  67. "You don't know how impressive it is to be the first in your family to go to law school and not only do it, but be in the top 20% of your class after the first year and transfer to a school that is highly respected such as the one I am making my move to. "July 30, 2011 2:23 PM

    I'm not impressed at all.

    Become an MD, a DO, a veterinarian, a research chemist, a DDS, something REAL, then I will be impressed.

    Law is all bullshit and who you know.

  68. I tried to be polite to the World Traveling Law guy, and he kep coming back with nasty stuff, and as if he hadn't heard or read anything that I had responded with.

    Ah, he's a kid. Just a kid. But still, I do not like the disrespect when respect, even a little bit, is due.

    In other words, a willingness to engage in debate or argument, rather than ignore and attack.

    Something like that.

    So Odnan is not ready yet for all that.

    Too young I guess.


    Heading back to the commode’s 2010 Form 990, we can see that the “non-profit” corporation called New York Law School is doing very well financially. On page 1 - lines 20-22 - you will notice that this dung heap had $433,416,096 in end of year total assets, while facing $219,325,112 in total liabilities. This means that NYL$ had $214,090,984 in net assets!

    Furthermore, since New York Law Sewer is a private, independent trash pit, i.e. it is not attached to a university, it does not need to share profits with any other departments or colleges!! Perhaps the recently-ousted dean at the Univer$iTTTy of BalTTTimore should apply to this dump. He was forced to resign, because he was not happy with the university taking too much of the law school’s cut.

    “Dean Phillip Closius sent an e-mail today reporting that the university’s president asked for his resignation on Thursday and it’s effective now. Why? Because Dean Closius told the ABA that the university was looting the law school, and the ABA requested an explanation. He writes:

    For the most recent academic year (AY 10-11), our tuition increase generated $1,455,650 in additional revenue. Of that amount, the School of Law budget increased by only $80,774 [!]. I do not know of any law school in the country receiving such a small percentage of its generated tuition revenue. A recent article in The New York Times noted that a 25-30% revenue retention by a university was considered high by national standards. As of academic year 2010-11, the University retained approximately 45% [!] of the revenue generated by law tuition, fees and state subsidy. Using any reasonable calculation of the direct and indirect University costs, the University was still diverting millions of dollars in law school revenue to non-law University functions.”

    Phillip, head to NYL$ and you will not need to share your loot with university administrators, wasteful programs and anemic departments. As you can see, Richard MaTTTa$ar also expressed concerned with students’ job prospects. (Of course, the fat pig did nothing to relieve ever-increasing student loan debt loads among his students and graduates. In fact, the hypocrite admitted more students - into an increasingly tighter job market.

    “In 2009, 9,787 people passed the bar exam in the Empire State. The analysts estimated, though, that New York would need only 2,100 new lawyers each year through 2015. That means that if New York keeps minting new lawyers apace, it will continue having an annual surplus of 7,687 lawyers.”

    As an added bonus, if you join the faculty at this turd, I can then research and publish your big-ass annual salary.


    We can see that the mentally-unhinged and delusional bitch from Springfield, MA cannot stop visiting this site.

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    You have made 10 visits to this blog today, so far. In the span of 12 hours and 16 minutes. You stopped by here 14 times yesterday, loser, after viewing this blog six times on Thursday. Get a life, cockroach. Lastly, be a man, grow some balls, develop some integrity, and STICK TO YOUR WORD!

    “...and, I won't be back here to read your comments. I promise that.

    The World Traveling Law Student | Enduring Success Forever

    July 17, 2011 4:49 PM”

  71. I think everyone here who reads and follows this blog should make a pact with themselves in not to pay attention to WTLS from this point on. If this guy chooses to be disrespectful to an attorney with 20+ years of experience in referring to that guy as "old", well then screw him. I even tried to reason with this kid too in pointing out the fact that if people with experience in practicing law, the odds are greatly stacked against him, well then that's his problem now isn't it?

    WTLS: you had your fun on this blog, now it's time for you to get lost.

    We do however need to continue to focus on the exhorbitant salaries these deans make at the expense of those who just want to better themselves. These 3T and 4T institutions have had a free ride for over thirty years in taking advantage of people with its high tuition, providing sub-par education, and not even assisting grads once they received their degrees. These self-rightous bastard elitists have had a free ride accepting government funded loans, and taking money from people who do not stand a chance in hell at other schools. Bring back trade schools and let's just close down these 3T and 4T colleges and universities. The only thing these colleges and universities are doing is getting people into debt.

  72. ^EDIT: meant to say that if people who have experience are having problems finding work, the odds are greatly stacked against WTLS that when he graduates, it will even be more difficult for him finding decent paying work.

    You get the point. You can give advice till your fingers are numb from typing, if that person refuses to listen and consider it, there is nothing else that can be said.

  73. I went to a 4th-tier, graduated at the bottom of my class, didn't pass the CA bar on the first try, and I now make over $65K a year at my job as an associate, in the worst Recession in U.S. history, at the worst time for our profession. I was working for free just 6 months ago.

    It took me about six months to snag and offer, but you know what else? I drummed up my own cash in a month before getting this job, about $4K off taking on my own clients, and locking in referral fees for big cases.

    I don't disagree with Nando, but I do think law by and far is a profession that rewards the people who really don't give a fuck and don't give up and don't sweat the statistics.

    It is ridiculously hard, almost at the point of impossible, and I do work long hours at my job, but it is and always has been the way of the lawyer, even before the Recession. You have to be so tough you cannot think I can't do it, you gotta think there's no can't, there is only won't. And that mentality, that determination doesn't separate based on whether you went to Harvard or Western or wherever. I know UCLA kids who can't get a job right now, and I went to a much, much lower ranked school than them.

    And again, I'm not discounting anything Nando is saying. I really feel like oversaturation of lawyers is a problem, and law schools are a business that operate at the expense of the profession. I really wish they would shut down a bunch of schools.

    What I am saying is, if you have the license, and people want you to represent them, that is a form of business, and it is a way to get started at least. I felt great the first time I made $2K, and dismal job prospects had nothing to do with it. I had the suit and tie, the paperwork, and this client wanted me because I'm a nice person, so it worked out.

    I think too many new attorneys think they need to sit at home and apply online and that's all they do, which is not true. You gotta do that, and do 100 other things to get business. You also have to know where to work for free, if you're gonna work for free, and know exactly what you will get out of it before diving in.

    I bet most newly licensed attorneys, particularly in california, aren't even aware of referral fees and how they work. Getting older, more experienced attorneys cases who you know are a good fit for the client is a great way to get started, and get your name out there. Not all attorneys are about it, but many are, and some even advertise it on their website.

    Just throwing out some different thoughts on this board, since I have gone to a school on the list on the right, and didn't graduate terribly long ago.

  74. Agreed with the above poster that its time to just ignore WTLS. Probably he got mad when he saw that no one was responding to his sad little blog and had to come back here for more attention.

    Still, something WTLS said in a couple of different postings needs to be addressed - not for WTLS sake, because he already knows everything, but for anyone who is considering law school or who is in the early stages of law school. WTLS says that he can always just be an AUSA or join the JAG corps. In a different post on a previous thread, he said that a law degree opens opportunites with FBI, CIA and DHS.

    I work for a component of one of those agencies, have applied for positions with multiple federal agencies, and have gone through various parts of hiring processes for different agencies. I have had my background investigated, been polygraphed, been through all sorts of assessments and interviews, etc.

    The idea that you can just get hired for a federal agency, or that your law degree opens lots of doors in the federal government is a fantasy. In the best of times, federal hiring is completely unlike anything in the private sector. It can take months or years to be hired for federal jobs. There is a federal job that I applied for in July 2005 for which I am still in the hiring process.

    Agency budgets change, needs and priorities change, and politics change. All these factors make federal hiring unpredictable at best.

    Another thing about federal jobs - they are in high demand. Most federal jobs that are open to the general public have some sort of minimal education or experience requirement to apply. Having a law degree generally allows an individual to apply for jobs at the GS-9 level and below.

    Allows to apply, however, in no way means you have much chance of being hired. Especially with the better known agencies, you will be competing against combat veterans, experienced attorneys and accountants, people fluent in mutiple critical needs languages, etc. Your low tier law degree with nothing else probably won't make you stand out as a candidate.

    Another thing - many federal jobs require a background investigation. A good background investigator will find your facebook / myspace accounts and any blogs you may have created. If your internet presence suggests you are unstable or lack good judgment, you may as well not bother with applying. Same goes with the private sector. Many private employers also will look at your internet presence to see what it says about you.

    Basic point of all this - if you are in law school or are considering going, please do not delude yourself into thinking that your law degree will make for an easy entrance into a federal job. Also, if you are going to be looking for a job somewhere someday, be wise with what you put on the internet.

  75. Agreed with the earlier poster that its time to ignore WTLS. It looks like he started his own sad little blog, realized that no one was paying him any attention, and had to come back here for more. Whatever WTLS is - troll, shill, psycho, true believer, its time for everyone to treat him like the guy mumbling to himself at the bus stop. Don't get too close, don't make eye contact, pretend he's not there and he probably will go away.

    As a parting shot, WTLS idea that he will just join the AUSA's office or the JAG corps is a hoot. I hope every sane person reading this blog understands that it is very difficult to be hired for any federal job. I know because I actually have a federal job, and have applied for more federal jobs that I care to think of.

    The competition for these jobs is very intense, and the hiring process is completely unlike anything in the private sector. For instance - when a private employer posts a job, it means that a job is available. When a federal job is posted it may mean that a list is being created for future hires if the budget allows for hiring someday. Federal hiring can take months or years. I am still in the hiring process for one federal job I applied for in 2005.

    As far as the competition goes, be assured that you will be competing against combat veterans, experienced attorneys, accountants, law enforcement personnel, people with fluency in critical-needs languages, etc. Your undergraduate degree and law degree by themselves may not do much to distinguish you from the competition.

    Also, many federal jobs require a background investigation before hire. Depending on the sensitivity of the position, the investigation might involve a look at an applicant's internet footprint. If your internet presence suggests you are immature, lack good judgment, are unstable or have a less than cordial relationship with reality, your job prospects may suffer. Private sector employers are also looking more at applicant's web presence. Might be important to remember if your future plans involve working for someone else someday.

    Basic point to all this - if you are in law school or are contemplating law school (especially low tier law school), please relieve yourself of the notion that you can easily obtain a federal job with nothing more than a law degree after you graduate. The point of this posting is not to discourage anyone from seeking federal employment, just to point out that the jobs are far from easy to get.

  76. Ok kids, time for a real Professor to give you a lesson in history and economics.

    1991: Tuition for NYU Law School was $12K
    2011: Tuition for NYU Law School is hovering around $47K (a 400% increase in tuition).

    1991: Average price of a house in NY was $110K.
    2011: Average price of a house in NY is $385K.

    1991: Average salary for shitlaw: $25K.
    2011: Aveage salary for shitlaw: $25-40K.

    1991: Biglaw salary for entry level associate was $80K.
    2011: Biglaw salary for entry level associate is $160K.

    1991: NO CLE requirement in most states.
    2011: CLE is mandatory in 42 out 50 jurisdictions, which compliance on average will cost attorneys about $1,500.

    1991: Shitlaw was lucrative. No verbal threshold or tort reform. Sprains and whip lashes would settle easily for $10-$20K.

    2011: Tort reform has been enacted nearly in every state. Only way to get money from slip and fall and fender bender cases is to show broken limbs. Insurance companies are not settling and if they do, it is for nuissance value of $2,000.

    1991: There were just half a million lawyers practicing law.

    2011: There are over a million lawyers in the U.S.

    What do all these things mean? America is no longer great. Becoming a lawyer is no big deal and it is certainly not a path to riches or even a guaranteed middle class life. Going to law school, especially the lower ranked ones is fiscally unsound. Sure, maybe you have some anectdotal success stories just like a few dozen out of thousands of soldiers survived the invasion of Normandy. Those are odds I would not take. Practicing law is harder these days than it was 20 years ago. The law is not glamorous as it is inaccurately portrayed in the movies or on TV shows.

    The law schools have been punch drunk on greed for years. Today, they let anyone in law school. I predict the bar will continue to decline, fees will go down and the prestige factor will disappear. I have more respect for my barber than I do a lawyer and society is starting to learn that.

  77. I am glad we could all learn some history today *golf clap*. That was nice of you above to enlighten us, no no, it really was. Friend, you forgot about inflation though, and you forgot that back then WAY fewer people wanted to go to college. SUPPLY PLUS DEMAND. Economics, bro. Holy moses, the general population knows little to nothing about economics. Today there are WAY more people going to school, which means schools charge more, which means more money for the people in the schools, such as professors and deans. You are all making a big fuss about the schools when it is economic theory you are arguing against. People exist in business to make money, and law school is a lucrative business. You mean to tell me you think people should not open a lucrative business if it is a law school? Some of us will still try harder, but that's what it will be for us all, harder. Now that I just educated you all, you can disperse. Thank you.

  78. I hate having to education people older than me about things a ten year old could understand. *sigh*....

  79. By implication, Nando states: I have no balls!

    "JD Painter, you have serious balls to post your transcript online. Those grades are very good - especially when one considers that they were earned before the current era of grade inflation."

    Nando, post your rank and your LS GPA. Come on. Show us your danglers!

  80. You simply cannot use reason with a retard. It becomes impossible when he is both retarded and psychotic.

    Hence, all you can do is mock him.

    'I hate having to education people older than me about things a ten year old could understand. *sigh*....'

    *sigh* WTF is that? Are you some kind of queer or something?

    'Education' yourself, dumbshit.

  81. These are systemic person's law school GPA is perfectly irrelevant.

  82. I'm interested to find out which law school the world's traveling law student is transferring to. Is it UCONN?

  83. Nope, not UCONN, but that was a good guess, 8:00AM. A good guess indeed.

    Plus it's so cute how people think I, top 18%, am a r-tard. I don't get it. I really don't! Have I not proved my intelligence yet, or do I have to start agreeing with this madness for you all to take note of my genius?

  84. ^

    Did you finish to fuck your mother in the ass, traveler? Do you need any help? I can swing by and extend a helping cock.

  85. I can see why the deluded and myopic law student poster was admitted to an inferior law school. He failed to understand the post comparing things today from 20 years ago. Of course there is inflation idiot. Did you bother to comprehend that although everything has gone up in price, salaries for lawyers, especially in shitlaw, have remained stagnant. Law school tuition has outpaced increases in real estate and other goods and services.

    20 years ago, an attorney would normally charge $2,500 to handle a DWI/DUI case (e.g., typical shitlaw matter). Today, due to the oversupply of lawyers, you can find a lawyer to undertake a DUI representation for $500. The law schools never talk about this or how harder it has become to practice law. Just wait until some of you solos get hit with the proposed sales tax on legal services that some states have already enacted. Government used to go straight for the pie and now they want the crumbs too. The student who constantly posts here will be a slave to debt. I cannot see him/her getting hired for a salary. He/she will likely go solo and join hundreds of thousands of struggling solos that are going bankrupt or getting divorced or putting off homeownership and starting a family as a result of the soul crushing debt.

  86. Law is not a glamorous profession people. It is a rat race. If you don't work in corporate transactional work(e.g. biglaw) you'll be stuck representing the unwashed masses. You will be in family court representing Darnell. His mother LaQuisha may show up to see her son. If she does, you might notice she's got 9 kids from 6 or 7 different men. When the juvy court judge sends Little Thug Darnell back into detention for beating up a teacher or librarian with a baseball bat, LaQuisha will lose it and blame the fucking system.

    Or maybe you'll be lucky and represent frauds in SSI cases. Yes, nothing lifts the spirit or soul, if you will, quite like waking up first thing in the morning knowing that you will represent a lazy cocksucker who is 23 in a disability hearing. The piece of shit has two good arms, too good legs, and maybe has some mental issues that some meds could clear up. But does Travis or Beavis want to take his medication? Nah. He wants to collect a check instead. The 'system' owes it to him, didn't ya know??

    Have fun practicing shitlaw, kids.

  87. Speaking of shitlaw stories, I was at Federal Plaza one morning sitting in the back of an immigration courtroom. There was a removal hearing and the immigration judge was asking questions about the immigrant's marriage to a Black woman. The immigrant was Hindu. There was an exchange between the judge and the immigrant and finally the judge said "I don't believe you." The immigrant looked panicked, stood up and pointed to his lawyer and exclaimed: "he made up the story judge, I am simply going by what my lawyer told me to say." The judge angrily called the lawyer into his chambers. I don't know what happened to that lawyer but I overheard him tell someone on the way out of the courtroom that he regretted taking that case for $1,500.00.

    So not only do you get the privilege of practicing shitlaw on the cheap, you get to be thrown under the bus by your clients as a bonus. What a great way to make that six figure pricetag worthless diploma work for you.

  88. I am not worried about my financial future. Home ownership doesn't mean that much to me. I will be living in a city where home prices are extremely high and I am content with renting. Also, no plans on having children, so no added expense there. So far you have nothing new to bring to the table other than anecdotes about people who may or may not even exist!

  89. ^

    Did you finish to fuck your mother in the ass, traveler? Do you need any help? I can swing by and extend a helping cock.

  90. Yo Nando did you see this?

    It is amazing.

  91. What does that even mean, 12:32? You are not doing Nando any favors by posting such nasty comments.

    Interesting document 12:52. I didn't even read it :)

    JDpainter, I could not even begin to decypher your comments, that's why I could not reply. I had no clue what you were even trying to talk about. If you want to stay on topic then I might have replied. However, you were bouncing around my comment box like a lunatic.

  92. @July 31, 2011 3:00 PM


    Twinkle Toes :)

  93. See Painter, I'm not the only one that thinks you're wacked. No one understands what the hell you're talking about because it takes you a whole page to say what can be done in two sentences. NJ Kid.

  94. Hey, drifting around under different roles, fucked in the face, while hired to post here, piece of moist dog shit.

    Guess what? You are not a law student. You are hired to post your meaningless drivel to sabotage this blog. To achieve this, you tried different approaches and different roles in the past. You have been a law school professor, a big law associate, and a successful shit law lawyer. Because you are too dumb and too unsophisticated, you have been exposed time and time again. Naturally, because you are too dumb, you decided to adopt a role of an exuberant 1L student. (You are too dumb to be even a TTTT law student.) However, for anyone who frequents this blog, it is transparently clear what you really are. You are a degenerate. Had Darwin met you, he would have said: “Come with me and stand here, my friend. You are a point of a complete human descent.”

    It must be hard to make your living this way, deepshit, is not it? Now, did you finish to fuck you mother in the ass? Lets bring some variety in your fucked-up family. If your mother and your “wife” are tired to be fucked by you, send them to me. I will fuck them in every orifice they have.

    Now, get back to writing and posting your garbage, you useless piece of moist dog shit.

  95. I believe that WTLS is legit-- a fool, not a troll. I think back to my 1L year. There really were kids that enthusiastic and that deluded. Even the more skeptical among us had a slight case of this disease, otherwise we wouldn't have enrolled.

  96. ^You definitively have to be delusional to waste 50K per year and 3 years of your life...

  97. 12:00 PM tells a great story about the joy that is immigration law. Immigration law is where about 99% of the people who enter law school to do "International Law" end up. Unless you can get work doing employment-based immigration, it is one of the shittiest of shitlaw fields.

    It is shitlaw because most smart people who are qualified for whatever immigration benefit they are going to apply for can find the forms and instructions online and file them without legal assistance. What is left over are the criminals who fear deporation, the scammers and those who are unqualified to apply. To make things better, immigration is a great area to lose your law license, because your fuckup as an immigration lawyer can cause your client's deportation.

    Even better, a huge number of your clients will be liars with fake or forged documents. They won't tell you their complete story until after investigation brings out some damaging fact that undermines all the work you have done as a lawyer.

    Probably the best thing about immigration law is that there is almost no way to do immigration and stay on the safe side of the ethical line. For most immigration lawyers, its not a matter of whether you cross the line to help your clients, its how far you decide to cross the line. Oh the fun you can have with clients who are in sham marriages. Do you simply explain to them how to approach the interview? Do you coach them in how to deceive the interviewer? Do you set up your own matchmaking operation to help people get green cards? Do you decline representation for the clear scammers and watch potential business go to the other lawyers in town who will take any case?

    And just like 12:00 said, if you decide to cross the ethical line, you will have to do so remembering that your clients will absolutely throw you under the bus the minute they need to. When Mr. Singh is facing the long plane ride home, he will be only too happy to say that you arranged his marriage to Shontequia to save his own hide.

    And why is this? As a lawyer, all you can give is advice and time. You don't give the client what he or she wants. The goverment does that. If the client needs what the government has more than he needs you, rest assured you will be the odd person out in the equation.

  98. Those who ignore the advice of others with experience can learn the hard way. When they get fucked in the ass and can't land a job, no one have pity on such fools.

  99. The posts about immigration law remind me of a great story a friend once told me. He was representing a woman in an asylum hearing. The client was testifying that she was persecuted by "4 men in a black car" at all times. During her testimony she said she would elude the men by outrunning the car. The immigration judge interupted and asked the woman "how fast were you running?" The woman replied "15 miles an hour." The judge then asked "how long would they chase you for?" The woman replied "sometimes for 2 hours at a time." The judge then replied, "Miss, if you can run like that, you should have gone to Bejing and represented your country in the Olympics. I am denying your petition." At that point the woman, in typical fashion, told the judge that she wanted to recant the story because it was what her attorney coached her to say. Immigration law is a true minefield and a bad client will trip up a bar complaint. In fact, I have read some immigration lawyers have gone to jail for doing shady shit in this feces riddled area of law:

  100. "I believe that WTLS is legit-- a fool, not a troll."

    Yes, a fool, not a troll. I am as real as it gets!

    The above comment was interesting, I highly doubt it is real, though. That's a lot of running, and a lot of lying. I can only imagine that someone in the bottom 1/4th of their class would tell their client to tell that kind of story. And, if that person, in the bottom 1/4th of his class got a job, then we are definitely not doomed.

  101. Bar complaints hover over you, even if they are bullshit. They affect your reputation among the bar and bench. Given the internet, the public is in better position to find out who has had bar complaints against them. The imigration lawyer probably didn't instruct her to say that. But the client said that he did. Even if you win the case, potential clients can usually find out that you had a bar complaint filed against you. other lawyers and judges will know about it. If you have malpractice ins., you can probably count on it going up too. Even if your client is a lying sack, it's probably best to hire a lawyer who handles these types of cases before the state bar or state supreme court. See how great this profession is? And to think you only spent 7 years and took out a buttload of loans to enter this profession.

  102. I was talking to my wife last night about the whole law school thing and told her, even if the tuition was double at these schools, people would still go and they would still fill up. I didn't tell her, however, that I was one of these people.

  103. A huge problem which Americans is "ego"; everyone pretty much wants to validate themselves either through education, position title, and/or salary. Being a well paid administrative assistant certainly does not cut it when you are talking shop at a bar or a party. People in the US have been brainwashed that degrees and titles sort of validate you and prove you are intelligent, which of course is not always the case especially within the last 10 years.

    When I was unemployed, I had the experience in temping briefly a brokerage firm and Big Law, and I also worked at Trader Joe's part time briefly before landing my current job. Believe it or not, the managers of the store made more money than some of the financial analysts I briefly worked with. Store managers at TJ's can earn six figures if they are regional. Local "captains" (store managers) and "second mates" (assistant managers) earn close to $85K. Deal is with retail you must be patient and put your dues in.

    However try impressing people at a party that you work in food-market retail. I cannot begin to tell you how many people thought I was just nuts when I accepted a part time position at TJ's while I searched for work. It was certainly not glamorous, but at least I knew each week I would work at least 27-35 hours, and I had low cost health care as one of my benefits. Temping for law firms and brokerage firms? Unsteady work, no benefits, and I had to deal with some very abusive personality types. However people were far more impressed when I mentioned I was temping at "so and so" inc. or p.c. while I continued my job search.

    Image in the US is unfortunately everything. Until people look deep into themselves and realize if going through the pain in attending law school, MBA program, etc. is not really what they want to do, but do it anyway because of the lure of possible income and bragging rights of a degree, expect the masses to continue getting themselves into debt with student loans.


  104. TMF1977, I agree 100% with you about image. Our society is obsessed about image and how we look. I ride the bus to my law school and see many poor individuals that have expensive Gucci and Coach handbags. I used to work in fast food and I knew people with the same expensive handbags who were late on their rent chronically, but constantly blowing their paychecks on 'bling'.

    However, at the same time, the obsession with titles and status has not only been an American tradition. Most great societies have had titles and the masses would have loved to have one of them. It's just that now, a title is easier than ever to get.

    Honestly, I don't go to law school to get rich. I go to do something more with my life than just subsist and to support my spouse. The reality is, I don't care if I don't get a job in biglaw, I just want to do something where I can use this big brain of mine.

  105. @7:10: That's all well in good, however I have to agree with Nando and the other scam bloggers when it comes to the high cost of tuition, there is no justification to charge that much. My 23 year old cousin is stuck paying around $15K just after one semester at Cooley. There is no excuse for some of these colleges and universities to charge between $30K to $50K per year. The current cost of tuition in the US is inexcusable. If you add your undergrad on top of law school, or grad school, that's a major deficit to start off with, especially these days when finding entry level jobs is so difficult. At least if one buys a car or a home and you can't keep up with your payments, you can sell your property. You can't do that with a student loan.

    I also agree with other bloggers the way law school and the US legal system is structured, that it makes it hard for new grads. I can never comprehend why the ABA does not use the paralegal profession as a training ground for would be attorneys, or allow paras to handle low end legal work independently. Maybe allowing paralegals to operate like Solicitors do in the UK, would help reducing the glut of attorneys? I know for me, being exposed to the types of cases most attorneys deal with enabled me to make a sound decision in not running off to law school. On the other hand, my friends who are attorneys took the paralegal route and either attended P/T, or stopped working and went F/T. But at least they knew what they were getting into before law school. The current system is designed in having the student get screwed over and there is no need for that.


  106. People seek validation for their stupid decisions even. This is exhibited by the lemming mentality you sometimes encounter on this board. If you are confident that you made the right choice, be happy in your choice. QUit trying to convince others like practicing attorneys who feel that the market is garbage that they are wrong and that you are right. Go on about your life and be happy in your ignorance.

  107. Yet you people still think you are better than the "unwashed masses": LaQuisha and immigrants and "Beavis." That you are somehow distinct from them, that they are "criminals" and "scammers," but you are pitiable victims who have been "scammed."

    And you wonder why the "unwashed masses" don't give a fuck. Keep coughing up those IBR checks, suckers.

  108. ^Oh yeah because claiming that you are injured when you are not, or claiming you have been discriminated against when you weren't is the right thing to do, and it's the American way to justice right? Not caring about the welfare and well being of your kids, but continuing to have several children is OK because you live in the ghetto? I guess we should still give a pass to these types of people because in this day and age of mandatory education and the internet, they are still disadvantage?

    Liberals; I can't stand them.

  109. "The reality is, I don't care if I don't get a job in biglaw, I just want to do something where I can use this big brain of mine.

    August 1, 2011 7:10 AM"

    Although that is admirable, law is one of the last places to seriously use that (sic) "big brain of yours."

    Medicine, scientific research, engineering and design--that's where people use their brains. Working on cures, making more efficient vehicles, improving production processes--that's where innovative and creative people go.

    When some shyster, sleazy politician/prosecutor/lawyer-type puts the wrong guy in jail, it's typically SCIENCE that gets his ass out.

    Law is based on things decided in the past. Citing musty old cases decided by dead people, and then trying to trip other people up, is decicedly and dramatically not the most intellectual of pursuits. Law is but a glorified fucking trade, and that's in fact what it is in other countries--an alternate track to pursue right out of secondary school.

    And that's all that it should be here.

  110. @ July 30, 2011 11:11 PM

    Yours is one of the most intelligent comments made on this blog in some time. You have nailed down exactly why going to law school is an economically unsound decision for many, many people.

    To the idiot who posted right after the comment referenced above: 11:11 was talking about how cost of living has gone up, law school tuition has gone way up, the costs of maintaining licensure have gone up, but the potential income sources for most lawyers have remained stagnant or gone down or gone away. Making a response to this fairly simple comment by saying that law schools charge more because demand for their services has gone up misses the entire point of the initial argument. If this is how you argue, I encourage you enthusiastically to finish law school and take up law practice. Other lawyers always need an easy mark to beat the shit out of in court. You will be one of those.

  111. I love it how this blog views all lawyers as sleezy. Why'd you all go into law then if you hate lawyers so much? Is this just a recent revelation you all had after law school? I really don't get it. Please someone explain why you all hate the legal profession so much yet all went to law school? I honestly am thinking you went into it for the $$$ and the bling bling and not for the career. No wonder you're all so upset.


    Albany Law School
    Brooklyn Law School
    CUNY School of Law
    Columbia Law School
    Cornell Law School
    Fordham University School of Law
    Hofstra University School of Law
    New York University School of Law
    Pace University School of Law
    St. John's University School of Law
    State University of New York at Buffalo
    Syracuse University College of Law
    Touro College Law Center
    Yeshiva University Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law
    New York Law School

    As you can see, there are 15 ABA-accredited law schools, in the state. Most of these schools are ranked higher than the sewage pit known as New York Law $chool. In fact, a few of these institutions are in a league of their own.

    According to US “News” & World Report, Columbia has the fourth best law school in the nation; NYU’s law school is ranked 6th; and Cornell is rated 13th. NYLS grads typically do not have a shot in hell, when competing against their counterparts from these three schools.

    Fordham comes in at 30th best.

    Car-Bozo is ranked 50th, and Crooklyn is listed as 67th most amazing law school in the country.

    Hofstra is ranked 84th, with SUNY-Buffalo. St. John’s is rated 95th best and Syracuse University has the 100th most phenomenal law school in the nation.

    Albany comes in at number 113, while Pace is 117th and CUNY is 121st best.

    In fact, TTTTouro is the only law school in the state ranked lower than NYLS!!

  113. The New Jersey Kid, and the World Traveling baby Billy Budd have
    silly mouths full of snuggles.

    And huggles, as a matter of fact.

    And Huggles, and....and...and snuggles!

    And tickly toes.

    Twinkle toes too.

    Hu Hu Ha huuu! (Sympathy for the Devil)

    (Just Fucking with his literal brain, so don't mind me :)

    Tee Hee!

    Tee! HEE! HA HEEE!~

  114. Hey JDpainterguy,

    Is Touro still Touro-Fucksberg School of Law or did they change the name?

  115. "Please someone explain why you all hate the legal profession so much yet all went to law school?

    August 1, 2011 5:51 PM "

    Because, for me, anyway, the hating began AFTER I became a lawyer.

    For example, let's suppose I don't like liver. Why would I not like liver unless I had in fact TRIED it?

    Sort of like practicing law. You can't practice law (well, legitimately, at least) until you get licensed. Everybody (it's human nature) thinks the best and that they'll figure things out well enough, etc. Especially when listening to the advice of people 1-2 generations older, who faced much different circumstances, as it turns out.

    It is only after PRACTICING law for a bit that you realize how much it truly sucks. So, we're in fact trying to save some of you a whole lot of trouble, and you, for some unknown fucking reason, resent that fact.

    Wanna go to law school? By all means, go. I couldn't care less, believe me. Have fun.

  116. P.S.: It's spelled "sleazy", son, not "sleezy."

  117. Practicing law is the shits. Actually it was shittier than shit. I practiced this profession for 5 years and I nearly had a heart attack at age 32. That's when I finally said 'enough!'

    I had high blood pressure and high cholesterol. Eating greasy burgers and high sodium shit and not exercising will do that to you. At one point, I was 201 over 125. I had bad posture and I started wearing glasses. I was home long enough to fall asleep. How do you like that, stupid law student? I'd rather take a job cleaning dog kennels than practice law again.

  118. 5:51 already knows everything. Just like the kid who has to touch the hot stove no matter how much his parents tell him not to.

    Rather than trying to scold people who have been there and done that, just STFU, finish school, get licensed, start practicing and then everyone might actually take some interest in your opinion. Until then, you are a neophyte who has listened to professors bloviating about the Coase theorem, Palsgraf and International Shoe.

    For anyone willing to listen, the commenters on this blog have a lot of knowledge about the downsides of practicing law. None of your professors are going to interrupt their lecture on Mathews v. Eldridge to tell you about some piece of shit parent who refuses to have juniors speech problem fixed because fixing the problem would stop the monthly check from coming in. No professor or law shill will tell you about working a 15 hour day and then having your boss give you shit for going home early when you finally leave at 10pm. Who else will tell you the dirty little secret about how biglaw firms bring in top graduates for a year or two to improve the firm's prestige and then show them the door once the next group is ready to come in?

    I also could give a flying fuck if someone goes to law school or doesn't. Maybe it will work out for you, maybe it won't. Best to go in informed rather than believing in a fantasy, though.

  119. I walk everywhere (don't own a car), ride my bike and exercise often, am a vegetarian (almost a vegan actually) and don't drink alcohol. I don't really worry about high cholesterol much. Thanks for caring though.

    You see, I do have it all figured out.

  120. "You see, I do have it all figured out.

    August 2, 2011 5:12 AM"

    We'll see about that, smartass. See you on the gridiron. Wear your pads.

  121. Ok, I will see. I usually am right about everything. In fact, I don't know when I was wrong about any life choice I have ever made. I am 100% serious!

    Most people, in the end, tell me that my choices were indeed correct and that THEY were wrong. I expect no less from those here.

  122. ^
    Off your meds again?


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