Sunday, February 26, 2012

Excrement Floats to the Top: First Tier Georgetown University Law Center

Tuition and Fees: Notice how these cockroaches lists tuition, on a per semester basis. Students attending this trash pit on a full-time basis will be charged $46,865 in tuition and fees - for the 2011-2012 school year. Part-time law students at Georgetown Univer$ity will only pay $1,675 per credit hour.

Ranking: This school is widely perceived as a “top 14” law school. In fact, Pussy Bob Morse, of US “News” & World Report, rates them as the 14th best law school, in the United States. Due to its gigantic class sizes and CSO “placement,” this school is still a trash can.

Supposed Employment Placement and Starting Salary Statistics: The first tier toilet claims that 96% of its JD Class of 2010 - a cohort with 647 members - was employed within nine months of graduation. According to this document, the Georgetown University Law Cesspool awarded 678 law degrees in 2009, while the commode pumped out 645 grads in 2008. Would a truly elite institution produce such an annual GLUT of law graduates each year?!?!

By the way, the school notes that 317 members of the Class of 2010 ended up in private law firms. This represents 51.04% of employed grads - and 48.995 percent of the entire class. Regarding salary, note that the trash heap received responses from a mere 45.1% of those working in the public sector, from the Class of 2010. The median figure listed is $55,929. Try repaying your MASSIVE student loans and putting food in the fridge on such an income.

Take a look at this excerpt from David Segal’s ass-kicking, January 8, 2011 piece for the New York Times, entitled “Is Law School a Losing Game?”:

“A number of law schools hire their own graduates, some in hourly temp jobs that, as it turns out, coincide with the magical date. Last year, for instance, Georgetown Law sent an e-mail to alums who were “still seeking employment.” It announced three newly created jobs in admissions, paying $20 an hour. The jobs just happened to start on Feb. 1 and lasted six weeks. 

A spokeswoman for the school said that none of these grads were counted as “employed” as a result of these hourly jobs. In a lengthy exchange of e-mails and calls, several different explanations were offered, the oddest of which came from Gihan Fernando, the assistant dean of career services. He said in an interview that Georgetown Law had “lost track” of two of the three alums, even though they were working at the very institution that was looking for them.” [Emphasis mine]

Who else finds it tragically funny that such a supposedly “prestigious” law school could allegedly lose track of graduates who worked at the school?!?! By the way, does anyone with an IQ above room temperature believe that none of the three JDs were listed as “employed”?

Average Law Student Indebtedness: According to USN&WR, the average law student indebtedness - for those members of the Georgetown JD Class of 2010 who incurred debt for their law degree - was $122,319. Furthermore, 86 percent of this class took on such toxic debt. Keep in mind that this monstrous figure does not take undergrad student debt into account.

Administrator and Faculty Salary: Let’s see how well the academic cockroaches and pigs are doing, in comparison to their students, under this $y$tem. As you can see from page 1 of this 2010 Form 990, The President and Directors of Georgetown College for Georgetown, i.e. Employer ID 53-0196603, doing business as Georgetown University raked in $1,074,765,328 in total revenue - for the tax year ending June 30, 2010. Who says that “higher education: doesn’t off handsomely?!?!

Head over to page 39 of this tax document. All figures pertain to the tax year cited above. You will notice that John J. DeGioia made $911,918 in TOTAL COMPENSATION, as “president” of The President and Directors of Georgetown College for Georgetown University. Thomas Alexander Aleinikoff, then-dean and “executive vice president for Law Center Affairs,” rolled around in $449.509 in TOTAL COMPENSATION. Judith Areen, “Paul Regis Dean professor of law,” took in $339,994 in TOTAL COMPENSATION.  

Conclusion: This school is an overpriced sewer pit that straps its NUMEROUS law students and recent JDs down with a mountain of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt. Good luck trying to purchase a home, with $125K-$180K in student loan debt. By the way, if you attend this dung pit, then you likely attended an “elite” and expensive undergrad institution. While several graduates apparently end up in Biglaw positions, how many will stay in those firms 5-10 years from now? How many of these associates become partners? Most will quickly burn out from the workload - and many others will be tossed aside, when they fail to bring in an ass-load of business.


  1. You know, Georgetown Law School had a look at my blog this past week!

    Or at least someone from there.

    I for one went to a 4th tier Law School.

    What chance do the lower tier grads have, without connections of some kind, if they have to compete with top tier law grads that are glutting the legal job market as well?

  2. I wonder whether Georgetown would have its reputation and ranking were it located somewhere other than Washington, DC. I guess one could say the same thing about just about any law school in NYC besides Columbia, and any Boston school besides Harvard.

    When you consider Georgetown's connection to the political "elite," is it any wonder that you encountered the duplicity and just plain weaselry you found when you dealt with them?

  3. What's the average LSAT to get in here? Like 167?
    Highly successful students competing to get into one of the best law schools, yet even here the career prospects are dim. I don't know how the school can justify having 1800+ students in enrolled at any given time.

  4. I am glad you mentioned this school. Some may think that certain law schools should be exempt from being bashed, but even the elite are charging exorbitant prices, usually raising rates annually. Schools that are pumping out such insane amounts of grads need to be slapped around a bit and reminded that they are flooding an already weak economy. No, not even Georgetown is exempt.

  5. Graduating class between 647 and 678, and 46.8K in tuition. That must be about the worst we have seen. Other law schools can rightly complain: "Don't be greedy, leave some suckers and scam money for us!"

    One thing that sets me off is how little the average law professor actually knows about practicing law.

    I was perusing the faculty bios of Georgetown Law, and I was struck that many of these professors are shy about posting their CVs--favoring, instead, short biograpical sketches.

    However, it seems to me that most law school professors, from Tier One on down, fit into the following categories:

    (1) Professors who had a very high-level public sector job about 25 years ago, and then retreated to academia and have been sucking on the student loan teat ever since. (I note that Georgetown seems top-heavy with faculty who fit this category).

    (2) Professors who have never seen the inside of a courtroom, but have written a million-trillion journal articles and book reviews on Nietszche or just war theory, or critical race and gender theory, all of which are totally ignored by courts and practitioners. Very helpful, I suppose, for students whose career goal consists of waging a just war.

    (3) Professors who aced their law school exams at a T10, did two years as a memo-writer in big law or one year as a federal circuit court clerk, and then retreated to academia. For criminal law professors, you can subtract the big law experience and add a single year as an entry-level prosecutor somewhere.

    These "professors" couldn't train competent lawyers even if they wanted to--hence their fierce attachment to the time-wasting Socratic/caselaw method of instruction under which a few months of doctrinal material is stretched to fill three long years.

    It would be better to eliminate the lot of them and hire a faculty of adjunct-practitioners, who could train a student to try a case, to write an appeal, and to represent a client in several practice areas of the student's choice--that is, a structured version of the old apprenticeship model of legal education that produced Abraham Lincoln, Clarence Darrow, and Justice Robert Jackson.

  6. Thank you for finally hitting up the t14. I mean that sincerely. My brother went to a school just outside the t14 and he couldn't find shit after he graduated.

    Now it comes out this school shot out more than 1800 law grads out of a proverbial airplane in the last three years, and many of them didn't have parachutes. Straight up greed.

  7. Thank fuck you've covered the biggest offender of them all! This shithole is pumping out five times as many grads as it should be for such a prestigious school, and the only reason for it is FUCKING GREED!

    This fucker rakes in OVER ONE BILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR!!!!!


    Are you fucking kidding me?????


    God damn it, fuckers in Congress, REMOVE BANKRUPTCY PROTECTION FOR STUDENT LOANS. Please, for fuck's sake, stop the implied debtors' prison that is the bullshit protections negotiated by Sallie Mae in return for its grotesque donations to political campaigns.

    This generation is being FUCKED UP THE ASS BY A 18" COCK WITH A 5" GIRTH BY STUDENT LOANS. Does nobody in power give a fuck?

    Guess what, assholes in Congress. You will be retired soon, and this generation WILL NOT FORGET THE ASSRAPING you have dealt us.

  8. Nando, do you eventually intend to profile schools ranked above Georgetown?

    Will Yale have the dishonor of being the final law school to be featured on Third Tier Reality, if for no other reason than to demonstrate it's now "Yale or fail" in today's world?

  9. I'm surprised Nando didn't point out the school is Jesuit. He seems to have an axe to grind with Catholics. Just sayin'.

    1. Georgetown Law, they've mostly stripped the joint/factory/warehouse of indebtedness of anything Catholic (except a chapel, which is good b/c those who leave there w/o a job in hand will need to pray). Main Campus is wayyy more Catholic-appearing than the law center.

      The avaricious behavior of the school is against Catholic doctrine; Nando is most correct to point out the blatant hypocrisy.

    2. Fordham is another Jesuit trashheap. Had a bunch of priests at my grad ceremony, believe it or not. Turns out the lord's "servants" are just as corrupt and greedy as the rest of the population.

  10. Sweet. GULC is a piece of shit. Can't wait to see Yale!

  11. It'll be hilarious when Nando gets around to lambasting Yale. By that time, the law school scam will be in complete collapse and the legal profession in a hopelessly glutted freefall.

    By then, even some Yale students will have trouble finding legal jobs. He could caption the blog entry with a giant GOLD painted turd floating in a GOLD toilet bowl.

    1. I think Nando had good reason to stop at Georgetown. The point of this site seems to be to point out which schools can be seen ex ante as objectively bad investments (insert one of Nando's poop metaphors).

      Georgetown is certainly the best school that is even arguably a bad investment.

      A person admitted to Yale law school would be extremely foolish not to go (unless he/she was not interested in practicing law). The reality is that no Yale law school graduates have trouble finding jobs. One might ask: "What about the last student in the class?" The short answer is that roughly half of the class is functionally tied for last place (meaning prospective employers have no way of differentiating the performance of average students from that of the worst students).

      In a similar vein, virtually every student at Penn Law School who seeks a job in big law gets one. I personally am a 2L at Penn, and only know of one person who participated in OCI and did not receive a job in a big law firm (or a boutique firm with roughly equivalent pay).

      Northwestern is extremely comparable.

      That said, the reason why this blog is so sharp is that these top 12-13 law schools constitute less than 3% of accredited law schools, yet all of them have exorbitant price tags, and all of them create misleading impressions about employment opportunities available upon graduation. If over 97% of law schools are a bad investment ex ante (barring scholarships or pre-ordained connections), and none of them purport to be, then this whole system is a scam.

  12. Some Yale grads may have trouble finding jobs. Others, however, land lucrative jobs as academic scammers.

    Here is one of the latter--Professor Mark Fenster, of the University of Florida Levin College of Law, a worthy candidate for the honor of a Nando profile.

    Before becoming a law professor-scammer, Fenster had a prior career as a professor in the scam fields of "telecommunications" and "mass communications." Then Fenster apparently got a glimpse of the glorious salaries offered in legal academia and off he went to Yale Law.

    Fenster recently wrote a pompous fucking blog post about how it is his duty to be "boring" in class in order to usher students into adulthood (which he apparently thinks is boring) and into the practice of law, which he also considers "boring." In Fenster's own priceless words: "Being bored and being boring is a defining feature of adulthood, of responsibility, of doing the things that need to be done in order to live and provide for others....More significantly, like most professions law is about repetitive tasks and arcane things."

    Of course, Fenster would have little idea of whether practicing law is boring or not, because he has never done it, at least as a full-time permenent practitioner. Here is his CV:

    Fenster did his one year as a federal circuit court clerk, and then held a fellowship. (Oh, he pathetically lists his law school volunteer activity in an NLG committee called "Committee for Democratic Communications" under "professional legal employment" in his CV--it ain't).

    After his one year clerkship and his little fellowship (a grueling legal career lasting from 1998 until 2001), back went Fenster into the welcoming arms of academia, this time as a law professor. There he has written a shitload of articles with titles like "“The Opacity of Transparency" and “On Idiocratic Theory: A Reply.” (I will never read them, but I am sure they are very boring).

    According to Westlaw, only one of Fenster's articles has ever been cited by a reviewing court (and only once). None has ever been cited in an administrative decision, even though administrative law is his purported specialty.

    Actually, Fenster, the reason you are so boring, in addition to your obvious personality defects, is because you are stretching a few weeks worth of doctrinal instruction into a whole semester.

    Fenster asserts that "[T]he notion that classes should be entertaining, and that law school should be entertaining...seems misplaced." The word you are looking for, here, Fenster, is "interesting," not "entertaining." But, then, Fenster, for the tuition these kids are paying to make you rich and smug, they DO deserve "entertaining." So from now on, Fenster, dress up like bozo and entertain your students in class with song and dance and pratfalls. Because, law school is a circus, and you need to communicate that by acting like a clown.

  13. Oh how the mighty have fallen! Not even the T14 is immune to today's job market, or to a profile on Third Tier Reality.

  14. @4:01 pm,

    I do not have an axe to grind with rank-and-file members of the Catholic Church, or any other religious sect - UNTIL they attempt to impose their will and beliefs onto others. If they are secure in their faith, then they should be content with living those precepts - and not feel the need to enact them into public policy. After all, isn’t someone’s “spirit” intensely personal?! Hell, even Barry Goldwater bitch-slapped the religious “right.”

    I LOATHE corrupt, morally bankrupt institutions - and the pigs who run them. This includes banks, political parties, and highly profitable business and political organizations masquerading as “non-profit religious societies.” I detest business enterprises purporting to be “non-profit institution of higher education.” If it appears that I go after Catholic or Jesuit universities with extra vigor, then this is due to the schools pissing all over their stated Christian mission. The fact is that the Catholic Church owns and operates many colleges and universities. Some of those commodes have the gall to charge law students - and undergraduates - sickening amounts of tuition. Would Christ charge someone $46K in annual tuition and fees, for a watered down degree?!?!

    On May 27, 2010, Kashmir Hill of ATL wrote an article entitled “Georgetown Law Lamentation on NPR.” Here are some excerpts from that piece:

    “Now, luckily, National Public Radio has tackled the issue of tough times for law grads. Five Georgetown then-3Ls, now alumni, shared their dismal prospects with NPR on All Things Considered last week. Now those family and friends who either don’t subscribe to the WSJ or are illiterate can also have the opportunity to hear about how screwed you are. Pass it on: Economy Seems Bleak For Graduating Law Students.

    Why you gotta hedge, NPR? We think it’s fair to say it IS bleak. Host Robert Siegel asked the five grads how many jobs they had applied for. “I’ve sent out at least 150 résumés and cover letters,” responded one female Georgetown 2010 grad, who scored a government job. “Hundreds,” said another, who is still jobless.”

    The entry continued:

    “One grad urged Siegel not to judge the entire profession based on the travails of grads from a top school. He said grads from good schools are finally suffering the same fate of grads from lower-ranked schools:

    We five on this panel are unrepresentative of the legal industry as a whole. For a lot of the schools below us, it was a struggle for a very long time. Now their struggle is our struggle… Just because we’re struggling now doesn’t mean that everyone else has had it hunky-dory for the past ten years.”

    Students at these “top” programs are no longer immune to the shrinking legal job market. Seeing that the garbage pits do not teach practical skills, the recent graduates will need to overcome this deficit - and sell themselves on their personality or other intangibles.

  15. I want to know how it claims to have a 99.4% response rate on employment (based on unknown=4), but only about a 60% response rate on salaries. That smells like bullshit.

  16. I'll never get why law graduates routinely complain about the lack of practical experience of law professors and the lack of practical training provided by law schools, but they don't seem to have any problem at all with the fact that actual practitioners (legal employers) do not demand anything different. Indeed, graduates from the most theoretical programs (HYS, etc.) are the most in demand by the most discriminating legal employers.

    Don't you ever wonder why this is, or wonder why Biglaw partners specifically (who are the top of the food chain in the profession, dominate the ABA, and could easily bend legal academicians to their will) don't seem to much care if graduates have practical skills?

  17. @8:03AM

    Practical skills are of paramount importance, especially in this market where you won't get hired and may have to hang up a shingle. The legal market was saturated 30 years ago. We have reached an over-saturation point. Georgetown is a good school and being the bottom of the T14 meant that they had to capitlize on this by enlarging the class size. I believe Georgetown is the Cooley Law school of the T14, in terms of its obscene class size. In this market, it would not surprise me if 30-40% of Georgetown Law CENTER grads are fucked. In the DC/NYC market, Georgetown law grads are a dime a dozen. There is hardly an edge in going to Georgetown, unless you could not get into a higher ranked school. I suppose there is some comfort in knowing that you are part of the 650 plus turd droppings that are dumped into the legal market every year.

    If Georgetown Law had a class size of 250, I am sure it would be ranked higher than Duke or Cornell. However, greed plays a huge factor in keeping the gargantuan class size. Besides, kids will always continue to apply to Georgetown in droves since it takes in kids with 167 LSAT scores and is the last resort of the T14, not that this credential will save you in this dismal market.

  18. March madness is coming up. Which university with a law school has the best chance of winning it all this year?

  19. That is the grossest picture I have ever seen on this blog. And that's saying something. Well, I didn't need to lunch today or anything. So thanks for that.

  20. @8:03
    Which law schools are Biglaw firms supposed to draw from? At last check, pretty much all law schools have a mostly theoretical, largely impractical curriculum. Outside of a clinic here or an externship there, its three years of hide the ball socratic nonsense, whether you are at HYS or a TTTT. So unless you are aware of some alternate reality where there are schools that are big on practical education, Biglaw is going to do what the status-obsessed legal world does and hire from the T8. Since the lack of practical training is an issue across the board, Biglaw hires from the schools that 1) tend to admit the objectively smartest students and 2) have the big names that make their clients happy. I don't expect that Cravath or Sidley Austin's clients would be all too happy to see that either firm went on a Florida Coastal / Barry University / Texas Southern hiring binge. With legal education the way it is now, firms are going to have to do practical training no matter what, so best for them to draw students from the end of the pool that keeps their clients happy.

    As for this post, this might be the most important profile of a law toilet that Nando has done. With most of the other schools profiled, the students going in should probably have some clue that a challenging, rewarding, high paying career isn't in the offing after they graduate. Georgetown Law Sewer is different. Students enrolling there have reason to believe that they will make it because they are at Georgetown. It has name recognition, its in the T14, its in DC. And yet the school craps out graduates at a rate that would make a laxative addict cringe. While charging an obscene amount of tuition. Not to mention the high COL in DC.

    Georgetown is all the bad things about law school wrapped into one rotten whole. It has just enough of a reputation to suck lemmings in. At the same time, there is no way the job market can support all the graduates it pushes out each year. And it has to suck for the students who graduate and find nothing for employment because they had some reason to think that something would be out there for them. It isn't like the situation for TTTT grads who maybe should have known better. Georgetown grads are the people who did everything right. And they still are fucked en masse. With debt they will never shed and never be able to justify. There probably isn't a shittier law school in America.

  21. Honestly, which is worse--graduating from a TTTT school where your chances of getting a "good" legal job are infinitesimal (at best) or graduating from a school like Georgetown where your chances (although better), are still not nearly as good as advertised?

  22. Georgetown is an even bigger piece of shit than your typical TTTT shit heap. Kids going to those schools should know their chances are crap. But Georgetown is a name brand. It is a national school. Kids going there had a reasonable expectation of doing pretty well.

    Georgetown relies on its reputation and name brand to charge students a shit ton of money in tuition. When its done with those students, it discards them like a used condom.

  23. About a year ago, I met a older Black gentleman who was homeless. He was living in a vacant home with other homeless people. I was shocked to discover that this man actually had a law degree from Georgetown. I remember trying to convince him to go to the media with his story but he felt too embarrassed and was afraid that his relatives would recognize him as he had told them that he was living well as a successful attorney. Talking to this man for 30 minutes made me realize that minorities that attend Georgetown are probably more fucked than anyone in the class. I suppose in this fellow's case, Sallie Mae couldn't harrass him for lack of physical mailing address.

    1. That is terrible. I'm jaded as hell and that is still upsetting. I really hope these bastards get their comeuppance. They've ruined so many lives. Fucking pigs.

    2. He was homeless but living in a vacant home? Maybe that's why he had a degree from Georgetown Law.

    3. "He was homeless but living in a vacant home?"

      He means squatting.

      God law school is terrible.

    4. Rumor has it he was Chairman of the RNC until recently

  24. GULC was crazy to send that email out about a 6-week job in the run-up to the 9-month mark for its grads - most were unemployed sitting around reading emails, and how many of those did a quick forward to one of the scam blogs? I know I did. Graduation was funny. We filed up around 2 or 3 abreast and processed across main campus. The procession took 10 minutes. I kept thinking, there's no way 95% of these people are employed.

  25. As a follow up to 10:53, a lot of us were fooled by the acceptance rate at GULC into thinking that we were destined for an elite job upon graduation. How, when 9 of 10 applicants were rejected, could we, the top 10% of that supposed gene pool, not do well upon graduation? This makes me wonder. Acceptance rate also figures into the US News Rankings. I wonder if there's any way to game that system as well, but I suppose that's a silly question.


    On May 27, 2010, Chris Heller of Georgetown blog “Vox Populi” wrote an article entitled “Surprise, Georgetown Law grads! You probably don’t have jobs either.” It essentially covers the NPR story I referred to, in my prior comment. Here is an excerpt:

    "On Friday’s broadcast of NPR‘s “All Things Considered,” host Robert Siegel spoke with five Georgetown Law students who found themselves in unexpected positions after graduating earlier this week.

    The five graduates estimated that they each sent out “hundreds” of resumes, yet have all struggled to find jobs, according to Joel Florescu (LAW ’10).

    Florescu claimed that the economic problems within the legal industry may have hit other schools previously, but are only now starting to impact Georgetown Law.

    “I think that for a lot of the schools below us, it was a struggle for a very long time. Now, their struggle has become our struggle. Now, we have to deal with the same sort of problems that they have been facing,” he said."

    At least, these grads understand that they are largely in the same boat, as JDs from lower-ranked schools. Plus, this story will help spread the message to prospective law students and their families. Remember, the corporate media tends to give more credence to unemployed law grads from elite schools. Apparently, TTTTouro grads and CreighTTTon-trained lawyers are bums who "should have known better."

    Check out these reader comments:

    "Meredith says:
    May 27th, 2010 at 7:08 pm

    I don’t know how they’re surprised. Layoffs at big law firms have been happening for a couple of years now, and the market has frozen up. The industry has been talking about this since these people started law school, basically. Thankfully, things *might* get better for my year (L’ 12), but I’m not counting on it. Also, how incredibly condescending was that comment about the “schools below us”? The layoffs and hiring freeze have impacted students from schools ranked higher than Georgetown, which barely clings to its #14 rank. In conclusion, these students are idiots. Clearly, the prestige of a school does not equate to the common sense of its students; if anything, it seems to be an inverse relationship."

  27. "gc says:
    May 27th, 2010 at 10:12 pm

    Meredith – Seriously?

    The difference between this year’s class and L’12 in terms of what was expected is pretty substantial, particularly if you compare what they expected from EIW to what happened to this year’s 2Ls. Of course everyone’s been impacted, but you can’t deny that lower ranked law schools have been hit worse in terms of hiring, especially at BigLaw.

    I’d say they all came off as pretty humbled, yes, given the situation, but here’s the thing – you expect more if you’re in a T14. A lot of our problems are a reflection of the failures of OCS to be useful. Seems endemic at this university if you’re not in the business school.

    No reason to think these people are idiots."

    Here are "Meredith's" responses:

    "Meredith says:
    May 28th, 2010 at 12:50 am

    I will concede your points, gc. Frankly, I think one of the real problems definitely lies with OCS, and this might be what you were getting at: all they preach is BigLaw and all they train us for is BigLaw, and they kept on singing the praises of BigLaw as the whole market went down the toilet. They’re still doing it! We’re better off than other schools, but we’re not immune to this economy, and it’s not getting substantially better any time soon as far as I can tell.

    I went to the town hall meeting a few weeks ago about the externship debacle, and there was definite agreement among the students present that GULC needs to be more proactive in talking about other options and not just vaguely mentioning them. Yes, many of us are in it for the money, but at a school with a wide array of top-ranked clinical programs, most of which involve public service, there are definitely people not interested in that track, and now there are a lot of people who have been forced off that track. Georgetown is known for its ability to send students to great firms, but that’s a lot harder now, and they need to acknowledge that.

    Meredith says:
    May 28th, 2010 at 12:57 am

    Oh, and one more thing: OCS is totally useless on main campus as well, as you said. (You sound like you might possibly be a “double Georgetown” as well?) They were absolutely no help with anything, including my pre-law “counseling,” which consisted of a very brief skim of my resume and a pat on the back. I would not have relied on them in the least for job assistance had I not gone to law school, but I also would have had a hard time figuring out where to even begin my search or how to plan it."

  28. It's 'bout got damn fuckin' time ya got to dis dem here piece o' shit law school. I was fixin' t' grab meh a family bucket a grilled chickinz 'n cole slaw 'n take a shit on da lawn of this money-makin' mofo. Fuck sake, man. I'sa pretty laid back muthafucka. Bein' dead fer fuckin' for 31 years will do dat to ya. An' when yas gets'ta heaven, no ya don't gets'ta bang Marilyn Monroe. I creid like a bitch fo' a week when I done learned dat. I ain't even jokin' 'bout dat. But seein' dat dem there tuition rate bein' charged makes mah blood boil. I wouldn't pay $46,000 a year on dis muthafucka and I's be a rich muthasucka.

  29. Wow, so it costs $46K to attend the 14th "best" law school in America? And 14th best according to who? What kind of metric was used to determine thiis arbitrary ranking? Whatever shred of intelligence the kids who were accepted at GULC had, disappeared when they decided to enroll in this "gold plated" shit factory. They are worth over $1B and claim non-profit status? Who the fuck are they kidding?

  30. I remember full well hearing through the grapevine about a man that had taken his entire first year 1L hell over at Touro Law School, under a "Second Chance Option" or whatever they called it.

    I believe he is an Attorney now, and of course has passed the bar. He is African American.

    I would never give his name, but such are the times we live in.

    Actually, he was the second person like that I had heard about from Touro.

  31. If your law school has the name Center in it, it's TTT. Case closed.

  32. GeorgeTTTown Career CenTTTer's "advice" consists of telling you that you won't get a callback from a law firm at OCI without at least a 3.7 - so they admit that even in a good year, 90% of the degrees they issue aren't worth the toilet paper they are printed on.

  33. @Nando

    I am glad to see you picked up on the "should have known better" line in your 6:37 comment. The "should have known better" line, along with its little cousin Personal Responsibility, are to me the most infuriating cop-outs the law schools use to excuse their lies. It takes balls to publish lies to induce lemmings to sign up, and then tell the lemmings at the end that they "should have known better."

    This line of BS is nearing its end, though. Its one thing when grads of TT Kent or TTT Drake or TTTT Touro wonder where the 96% placement and $90k median salary are. No one cares, because those are non-elite toilets for suckers. (Or so the story goes). But when T14 grads start asking where the 98% placement and $110k median salaries are, and how they are going to pay off the $200k in loans, its a whole lot harder to tell them they "should have known better." If this trend toward less job opportunity and more difficulty paying down debt starts to seriously handicap a substantial portion of T14 grads, there is no good fallback position for the law school shills and scammers to take. Are they going to say that Georgetown and Cornell and NYU grads "should have known better." That will be a tough sell.

    What I would love to see happen would be for a junior college dropout to find a way to fake some documents and convince the LSAC that he or she has a 4.0 UGPA from an Ivy League school and a 178 LSAT, and then get enrolled with a scholarship at a TTT or a TTTT. And then, when he or she can't cut it and the truth comes out, let the school know that they "should have known better" than to believe the 4.0 GPA and 178 LSAT score. If you think about it, this little fantasy is the essence of the law school scam in reverse.

  34. The law skools are only in it for the money. The average baby lawyer can't file a basic motion in court. That ought to tell you something's wrong with this setup.

  35. I thought about why people don't sue places like GeorgeTTTown for their out-and-out fraud. Then I remembered that pointless admissions essay they made you write--the one where you waxed poetic about how you weren't in it for the money. They made you do that for a reason.

  36. I'm an indebted dead man, going through my death rattles.

    And very afraid by now. Every day of my life is fear as my student loan debt gets piled on with interest by the US government/Dept. of Education.

    I live, as an American citizen, every day, in fear.

    Kids, do NOT got to law school. If you still want to go, wait 3 or 4 years.

    Do not borrow money ever if you can help it.

  37. Check out the following garbage journal offerings, from Georgetown Univer$ity Law Center:

    "The Georgetown Journal on Poverty Law and Policy is the nation's premier law journal on poverty issues. As part of its mission to bring an end to the desperate conditions afflicting so many in this wealthy nation, the Journal publishes articles from distinguished law professors and practitioners in poverty-related fields. In addition, the Journal features student research, works from scholars in poverty-related disciplines, and the "voices" of persons living in poverty. The Journal's unique, comprehensive, and multidisciplinary approach to poverty issues and law represents a groundbreaking approach to scholarly publication.

    In pursuit of distinctive and seminal scholarship, the Journal adopts focus areas for each of three annual issues. In addition to its literary excellence, the Journal creates real-world interaction of leading scholars and policy makers with our annual symposium issue. Consistent with its mission, the Journal is also actively involved in local community outreach, and works with legal and social service organizations to provide assistance to those in need."

    Yeah, writing about poverty is going to make a big dent, right?!?! The fact is that there will always be broke-asses among us. Hell, MANY of them now have law degrees - from ABA-accredited trash pits!

    It might be interesting to see how many Georgetown Law students write onto the Georgetown Journal on Poverty Law & Policy, and later become debt-strapped, poverty-stricken JDs. Perhaps this commode can commission a useless academic study, to research this phenomenon. Then again, the school might argue that this is a positive “since our graduates can relate to poor people.”

    "The Georgetown Journal of Legal Ethics is published by the students of Georgetown University Law Center.

    This Web site is designed and operated by the student editors of the Georgetown Journal of Legal Ethics on the campus of the Georgetown University Law Center."

    Notice how these unethical “institutions of higher learning” feel the need to publish such tripe, regarding “legal ethics.” These pigs are only concerned about appearances. They don't really give a damn about ethics or morals - but they want the public to believe that they are concerned with these concepts.



    The law school scam is a microcosm of America. Take money from the trusting masses under the guise of a laudable goal - "higher eduction" - and distribute it to a very few at the top. Take money from them that they can ill afford, btw, in the form of non-discharegable student loans. Perfect.

    Involve, of course, the government along with banks and you have the usual scam by the rich to further fleece the poor. All legal and the perfect trap.

    The connected kids will do fine in any case. So that's really all that matters. The rest "should have known better" and deserve whatever happens to them.

  39. Fordham needs to get a profile on these pages. When are you getting around to that garbage heap?

  40. Georgetown is second only to Harvard for number of partners at Biglaw firms. Just saying. Many of its graduates self-select government work, fully aware of the low salary.

  41. Wait, why are you ripping on schools that you probably couldn't get accepted to?

  42. To the sensitive pussy who commented on March 7, 2012 at 10:53 am,

    I did not even apply to this waste pile. By the way, I am sandblasting ABA-accredited toilets - because they charge too much in tuition, do not provide students with real skills, and they pump out too many graduates, bitch.!?! Or do I need to draw your a diagram with Crayola on poster-board, so that it penetrates your gray matter?!

    1. Why is a Drake grad pretending to be able to analyze numerical data?

    2. Here is a valid question to ask yourself, cockroach:

      Why is a Georgetown Law grad or wannabe unable to comprehend numbers or basic facts?

      On October 2, 2012, TLS user "tectonic" started a thread labeled "Georgetown Job Placement." Here is the original post, in its entirety:

      "Can anyone elaborate on what type of work most Georgetown grads go into (and where that work is located)?

      Law School Transparency indicates that ~43% of grads stay in DC, ~19% go to NY and ~8% go to California.

      This seems at odds with the notion that the DC market is particularly difficult to find employment in, which I've seen several different people suggest. Unless most of those who stay in DC are placing in to much smaller firms? Any insight into this?

      At the moment, it seems to me like Georgetown sort of lacks a "home market". Am I mistaken?"

      Take a look at the following, informed comments, Bitch:

      Someone using internet handle “banjo” responded on October 03, 2012 8:00 am, with this gem:

      “That's 43% out of only 62% in LT FT legal jobs. Georgetown also boasts a 13% school-funded rate. ... chool=gulc”

      On October 3, 2012 at 9:18 am, “ajax” made a great observation about this stench pit:

      “Not very bright employment stats for GULC considering its ranking.”

      Two minutes later, “No13baby” wrote:

      “Georgetown's home market is DC, it's just a really difficult home market to find work in. Georgetown also has a huge class size, making for a rough combination.”

      From accountholder “sunynp” - posted on October 03, 2012 at 9:26 am:

      Ranking and employment are not 100% correlated ( as im sure you know but a surprising number of applicants don't. )This is why researching actual employment stats like OP is doing in this thread is extremely important.

      Learn how to process numbers and statistics, you piece of trash. Quit crying because others are aware of this commode’s HUGE class sizes, employment outcomes, the glutted DC job market. Not everyone is in your shoes, i.e. they can't, or are unwilling to, blow their way into a good job.

  43. Nando, just wanted to say thank you for posting some T1 schools in your turd profiles! I went to a T20 and I'm sick and tired of my law school friends who are mostly employed themselves, expressing complete denial that the "elite" schools are in on the scam too. I'd never claim to be as bad off as someone with a TTT on their resume, but the problems that affect us all are systemic and pretending that we are not all being screwed is not going to help change anything.

    You're doing the lord's work with this blog, so keep up the good work and spread the exposing profiles around to schools of all USNWR rankings.

  44. @ 8:03.

    Those law firms "don't care" because they hire associates to do monkey work. If this was neurosurgery, you'd bet your ass that they would want someone with training. There are many firms that bank off of this laughable scam of "I only hire recent graduates because they don't have any 'bad habits.'"

    Now, isn't that dumb? Why specifically would you want to hire an attorney whose sole achievement in life is that they fulfilled the 90 hour credit requirement to get a degree? Yes, way to go for filling a sizable portion of your second and third year with "Tequila Shots and the Law." You are rewarded for having a participant ribbon on your resume.

    As for Georgetown's ranking....whoever said that it was because the place was parked around DC is right. That too is its downfall. I know people who relocated around that area for various reasons after getting their law degree at Ant Mound School of Law, but I say good luck because I'm sure even the janitors are volunteers who are hoping that emptying trash cans counts as legal experience.

  45. You don't seem to realize that with federal legislation in place since 2005 and a law school loan repayment assistance program, a law student who wants to do public interest work can go to law school for free. All he need do is stay in public interest work for ten year. During that time he would not have to use any of his own money to make the Income based repayments on his loans because of the school's loan repayment assistance program. Both Georgetown and Maryland have such programs. It is literally possible to go to law school for free. Most people seem to know about this. It's remarkable that you do not. I suppose that't why a third tier law school was the best one you could get into.

  46. ^You're assuming three things:

    1. That it's easy to land such a PI job
    2. That someone will keep that public job for 10 years
    3. that the feds will not alter the guidelines or remove IBR anytime soon.

    What is given can be taken away. And G'town has too many law students. That's probably why so many recent grads are having such a tough time finding work.

  47. Anyone who chooses to go to lawschool without financial aid makes the decision to do so eyes wide open. It is expensive at any elite private school. While Georgetown is well regarded, it is by no means going to open doors for every grad, for every job. It's difficult not to be able to find a job after graduation, but countless people have struggled with this because of the timing of their graduation with world wide economic collapse. Rather than rant about the dismal circumstance of a Georgetown Law grad, move on in life. The anger and negativity are not worth it.

  48. Funny that Georgetown felt the need to literally poach Fordham's beloved Dean for very very big bucks (see the pay pack disclosure)!

    I guess they saw the that fellow NYC Jesuit Institution was placing more law grads in V5, and V10 firms than them (c'mon GT almost 700 grads per year!)and saw the "Great Poach" as the only way to combat this. Not very Jesuit-Like in my humble opinion at all.

  49. Nando is 100 percent correct. Unless you are in the T5 (and that is the total cutoff: look at the 10:1 ratio by which firms hire those grads compared to others), it is all a total scam...

    10:1 for Elite to Sub-Elite

    100:1 for Elite to Non-Elite

    Do an attorney by school search for any V5, V10, V20 firm and it will be totally clear.

  50. +1 to the above~ "poaching" well- entrenched and successful law school deans for hedge- fund level salaries and benefits is desperate and low- level. Obviously, this did not go unnoticed.

  51. GeorgeTTTown is the TTT of the top 14. Look at those gigantic class sizes. That's why it's so hard for so many of these assholes to find good jobs. Enjoy your mountain of student debt.

  52. Stumbled upon this - albeit 2 years later. I graduated from Georgetown law, work in the public interest (by choice, anyone that goes to law school to cash out is a delusional sucker willing to sell whatever dignity they have left), and I don't have to pay a penny back for my $180k in loans thanks to Georgetown's loan repayment program.

    Getting a job was fairly easy, I had multiple offers in November.

    That being said, if you want to do public interest and know where you want to work: go to either a really good school that HAS A GOOD LOAN REPAYMENT PLAN or go to a 3rd tier school and intern / volunteer / work your ass off at the non-profit / org you want to work for.

    If your plan is to work for a firm and you end up at either a 1st tier or 3rd tier school - go fuck yourself and i hope you hang on your debt.

  53. Honestly man, I enjoy the study of law and dream of helping clients and working in the field. This blog makes me feel shttty about the whole thing. So what field do you think one should get in that will reward one for hard work and dedication?


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