Friday, February 17, 2012

First Tier Flush: George Washington University Law School


http://www.law.gwu.edu/Admissions/tuition/Pages/default.aspx

Tuition: Full-time GWU law students will be slammed with a tuition bill of $45,750 - for the 2011-2012 school year. Part-time law students at this trash heap will only be charged $1,608.50 per credit hour, for the 2011-2012 academic year. Imagine the salary that one would need to earn, for a mere chance at a positive return on their “investment.”

Total Cost of Attendance: According to this same document, full-time students will face an additional $28,650 in living costs, miscellaneous expenses, books and fees. As such, the commode listed the total COA - for 2011-2012 - as $74,400.

Keep in mind that these bitches and hags only consider nine month living expenses. Counting twelve month costs for room and board, personal expenses and transportation, we reach a more accurate, total COA of $82,637 -for 2011-2012. This is an ungodly, outrageous figure. 

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

Ranking: Vagisil Bob Morse and U.S. “News” & World Report rate George Wa$hington Univer$ity Law Sewer as the 20th greatest, most mesmerizing and terrific law school in the United States. Who wouldn’t want to mortgage their future, for a chance to attend this school?! 

http://www.law.gwu.edu/Careers/prospective/Pages/EmploymentStatistics.aspx

Supposed Employment and Starting Salary Statistics: The school infers that 94.53% of its Class of 2010 was employed within nine months of earning their degree. Out of this class, a total of 14 JDs from this “top 20” law school felt the need to pursue another graduate degree. That should set off a few alarm bells. The commode also lists the overall mean starting salary - for 2010 grads who found full-time employment - as $127,567. The mean listed for those working as judicial clerks is $53,117. For $ome rea$on, the school does not include info from those working part-time.

Based on this document, this toilet pumped out 512 graduates in 2010, 556 for the Class of 2009, and awarded 529 JDs in 2008. Keep in mind that there are SEVEN law schools, in Washington, D.C.  According to this July 27, 2011 blog entry, in the New York Times Economix blog - with info compiled by Economic Modeling Specialists Inc. - Maryland has the ninth most glutted legal job market, and Virginia is 17th most over-saturated. Good luck competing in those cut-throat markets. 

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/grad-debt-rankings/page+3

Average Law Student Indebtedness: USN&WR lists the average law student indebtedness - for those GW law grads from the Class of 2010 who incurred debt for law school - as $110,000. Fully 81% of this particular class took on such toxic debt, for their law degree. This amount does not take undergrad student debt into account.

http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2010/530/196/2010-530196584-073c98ae-9.pdf

Faculty and Administrator Salary Data: Take a look at George WaShington Univer$ity’s 2010 IRS Form 990. Head to page 59 of this tax document, to see how much the pigs/”educators” are making. You will note that Frederick M. Lawrence, then-dean of the law sewer, raked in $501,154 in TOTAL COMPENSATION, for the tax year ending June 30, 2010.  Steven Knapp “earned” $1,053,636 in TOTAL COMPENSATION, for the same tax year - as “president” of the univer$ity.

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2012/02/trap-schools.html

On February 13, 2012, Paul Campos referred to this dung pit as “a trap school” - on his blog. Look at his criteria, for earning that designation:

“In honor of Wednesday's nine-month NALP reporting deadline, I'd like to introduce the concept of a trap school. A trap school has the following characteristics:

(1) It's expensive to attend.

(2) It's located in what the sort of people who go to law school tend to consider a desirable place to live (obviously these first two factors are related).

(3) It has superficially attractive employment and salary statistics.”

As you can see, this private toilet fits solidly, in this category.

Conclusion: George Washington University Law Sewer is an overpriced, highly over-rated cesspool. You may believe that you are going to make a Biglaw salary, which will enable you to pay off $115K-$165K in student debt. However, you should note that Biglaw firms are not known for keeping “unproductive” associates around. The school purports to provide its students with an excellent chance to earn a great salary, upon graduation. If you fail to land a decent job, then the pigs will chalk this up as a personal failure - on your part. It must be nice to claim credit for good results, while disavowing any responsibility for poor outcomes, i.e. “Heads, we win. Tails, you lose.”

72 comments:

  1. And I thought God was the only one that got credit for anything good and no blame for anything bad that happens.

    ReplyDelete
  2. I attended GW, graduated in the top half of my class in 2008, and now work at Reed Smith in Pittsburgh. I make 230K a year and am very happy with my job. YOU HAVE NO FUCKING RIGHT TO INSULT THIS SCHOOL. NONE WHATSOEVER! It was a great school, and gave me the tools I needed to practice. ROT IN HELL NANDO! FUCK YOU, FUCK YOUR wife, and fuck your entire family.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Really? You make 230K a year and rage on relatively-obscure blogs? Riiiiiiight.

      Troll on bro, troll on.

      Delete
    2. This person is being sarcastic. When I went to GW, the lowest that the law firms would go to is top 25% (maybe top 5% now).

      GW is obscenely expensive, and the professors and administrators are living large on other people's suffering. It's totally disgusting; thanks Nando for the scorched-earth review of this "law school".

      Delete
    3. I'm a GW Law grad, and I always thought GW had an unusually high density of ass holes, even by law school standards. I suppose this Reed Smith tool helps to provide proof for that theory.

      Delete
    4. I attended GW law school some years ago, have worked both in the public and private sector and currently work for a UN organization - all in legal positions. I believe the education I received, although expensive, was excellent. I think you get out of law school what you put into it - that plus perseverance and a little luck can take you far. Good luck in your professional endeavors and lighten up.

      Delete
    5. I didn't know Nando had a wife . . .

      Delete
    6. Yes, it is you, gayboy.

      Delete
  3. Here's what the comment above should've read:

    I attended community college. Two semesters. Dropped out and went back to school. Got into a fourth tier piece of shit law school. Graduated and can't find a fucking job now. Fuck you for trying to stop others from throwing their lives away like I did. Fuck you.

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  4. ^

    Was this comment made by the same nut job (World Travelling Law Student) that was claiming that he was an associate in Price Warehouse Cooper in New York and then a law professor in some major law school? As we later discovered, the individual was contained in a mental institution which unfortunately for all of us had an internet access.

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    Replies
    1. 1:39 AM here:

      /facepalm

      I should just be quiet.

      Delete
  5. Mental health issues aside for a moment. How do these schools get away with charging so much for their product? I mean, the schools don't have any necessary expenditures like medical schools. A lot of those journals are electronic. Shit my undergrad has a large library but they are converting everything over to e-databases.

    I agree that law school seems like a shitty idea. But you are overlooking the fact college is a scam overall. My last semester, all but one of my books was an e-book. My biology 3200 class e-book still cost $80. Yep, 80 fucking dollars. And I can't even scribble down notes liek I could with older textbooks.

    Student housing now looks like apartment suites. Some units have gyms in them. My cousin told me she has the option of getting a masseuse sent over. To paraphrase Marvin Gaye, what the fuck is goin' on?

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    Replies
    1. I'm an adjunct at GW, paid just > 2000 a class, whether the class has 10 people or 35 people. It's an honor.

      Delete
  6. @ 9:31 AM sure does talk funny for a successful attorney, that one would imagine would be calm, cool, and collected with a 230K salary and living the American Dream.

    I think it was Michael Corleone who got a bit upset when who was it? A senator from Nevada or was it Moe Green, that insulted Michael's Family?

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  7. GW Law School is a classic example of what Professor Campos blogged about a few days ago: it's a trap school. It attracts fairly bright people who could not get into a T14. To many of these T14 rejects, the fact that some tertiary rag known as the U.S. News & World Report rates it as a T20 is enough to justify the obscene tuition rate and loss of opportunity costs.

    Is GW Law a good school? Good is a relative term. It really depends on what you want to do. Do you want Biglaw? GW Law places some folks in Biglaw but then again so does Cardozo, Brooklyn, Rutgers and St. Johns (which by the way are all ranked lower than GW). So what are you really paying for by attending GW? The experience of living in D.C. for 3 years is nice but hardly worth $82,637.00 per year.

    Many people will be lured by GW's T20 ranking and proximity to the competitive D.C. market. I can guarantee that at $82,637.00, many GW Law grads won't be seeing a return on their investment in their lifetime.

    I know a couple of GW Law grads. Very bright people but these folks graduated in the '80s and '90s and are doing well for themselves. Tuition back then was a fraction of what it is today. Also, the profession wasn't as bloated as it is today. Too much risk and a small chance of a reward is what makes this a TRAP school.

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  8. GW is a trap school. In some ways, it's a bigger scam than the local TTT. Nowadays, lots of students know the score when they get accepted to a third (or fourth) tier school.

    But when you get into a top 20 school, well you're future is set. At least that's what the schools want you to believe. Their brochures claim 95% employment and average starting salaries of $100K or $112K. These claims even suck in highly intelligent people.

    When you see 95% at a school like St. Thomas or Florida Coastal, you kind of know its bullshit. But when GW says it, well you kind of believe it.

    Another way in which schools like GW are more harmful than TTTs is how they lead smart students to turn down full tuition scholarships to TTTs, and take out monstrous debt for a GW law degree. Forget this place.

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  9. I am sorry to go off the topic of the crap law school du jour, but I wanted to get in another word on the issue of useless law review articles covered in the previous entry and thread. Delete this comment if it takes up too much space.

    The last paragraph of this comment is a single (unreadable) paragraph from one of Professor Brian Leiter’s law review articles, titled: "Science and Morality: Pragmatic Reflections on Rorty’s “Pragmatism,” 74 U. Chi. L. Rev. 929, Summer, 2007. The full horror is found here:

    http://lawreview.uchicago.edu/sites/lawreview.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/74.3/74_3_Leiter.pdf

    As you read the paragraph by Leiter that I cut and pasted, ask: Under what scenario would such “scholarship” provide guidance to any practitioner, administrative agency, or court? Why should students go into a lifetime of debt-servitude to enrich law professors,like Leiter, who know nothing about practicing law and wouldn’t be able to distinguish a courtroom from a faculty lounge, but can produce endless reams of drivel, like that below? Isn't Leiter, in this paragraph, just dressing up a truism about the uncertainty of moral judgments with a lot of pompous bullshit to make us think that he is oh-so-smart? Isn't his main purpose here buttering up his powerful and influential friend, amateur philosopher Richard Posner, a Justice on the Seventh Circuit? How many part-time adjunct-practitioners, who actually have something to offer law students in terms of useful training, could you hire for the salary of one Leiter?

    “Rorty's response to Judge Posner's moral skepticism, then, rings hollow: “When Posner argues that moral philosophy is ‘epistemically feeble’ on the ground that ‘the criteria for pronouncing a moral claim valid are given by the culture in which the claim is advanced,’ Kuhnians like myself reply that the same argument would show the epistemic feebleness of physics and biology.”But Kuhn never claimed anything of the kind about physics or biology, and Rorty never gives us the details of how the allegedly Kuhn-inspired cultural explanation for physics and biology would go. Rorty's conjecture as to Dewey's reply to Judge Posner's skepticism about moral progress is equally unconvincing: “Of course our judgment of our own rightness is provincial. So are all our judgments about anything. But why should the fact that we use the criteria of our time and place to judge that we have made progress cast doubt on that judgment? What other criteria are available?” The “other criteria” available are precisely the criteria of “our time and place”—the criteria reflected in the planks on which we presently “stand firm”—which suggest that moral judgments are “epistemically feeble” (hostage to class interest and cultural bias) in a way that scientific judgments (generally) are not. Rorty claims that Dewey thought “that the contingency of our moral outlook, its dependence on material conditions, no more impugns our moral superiority than Galileo's dependence on expensive new optical technology impugned the Copernican theory of the heavens.” Yet the Copernican theory of the heavens (meaning, just to be clear, that the sun, not the earth, is at the center of our solar system) has been so well confirmed, so many ways, that it is no longer hostage to the peculiarities of any particular scientific instrument, while the empirical evidence for the vulnerability of moral judgment to
    “material conditions” (among other factors) continues to multiply beyond even the obvious cases.”

    ReplyDelete
  10. FROM A PRACTICING LAWYER

    I went to a "Top 50" law school. Throughout my time there, I did not worry about finding a job. After all, 98+% of all graduates were placed within 9 months of graduation, so what did I have to worry about? As my last semester approached, I was summoned for a career counseling session. The conversation went something like this:
    Her: What are your plans after law school?
    Me: I'm going to take the bar and then look for a job.
    Her: You mean, you haven't started looking already?
    Me: Um, no... Should I be?
    Her: What kind of question is that?
    Me: Well, ninety-something percent of students have a job within 9 months of graduation, so I should be fine. My grades are pretty good. I'm near the top one-third.
    Her: (Sigh). You shouldn't focus on those placement numbers.
    Me: Why?
    Her: The placement data is compiled using a more...relaxed criterion.
    Me: What does that mean?
    Her: It means that you should not pay attention to those numbers.
    Me: OK, then what do I need to do?
    Her: Worry about finding a job.
    Me: Why do I need to "worry" about finding a job?
    Her: Because, chances are, if you don't find a legal job within 10 months of graduation, you won't ever find a legal job.
    Me: What?!!!!
    Her: Trust me, you need to start looking for a job, now.

    We talked some more about ways to find a job, and that was it.

    Before that day, I had no clue that the reported numbers were completely bogus. No one had mentioned that to me or anyone else I knew. Some of my classmates knew about the inflated numbers because they had read about it before it was a major story, but most of us just assumed that it would be easy for us to get a solid, high-paying job within a couple of months of graduation.

    It took me a long time to get an interview, but I eventually landed a job as a lawyer. However, several of my friends were not so lucky. There are several guys I went to law school with who never found a job in law. Smart guys, who could not even get interviews and who never found a law job. One of them, six years post-graduation, waits tables at a nice restaurant and pulls down about $40K of non-taxed income per year. Another guy is a hotel manager. You can get jobs like that without a college degree!!

    Why were my friends unable to get jobs? As the career counselor said, the months passed after graduation, until they had been out for a year, with still no job, until suddenly they were competing with a new crop of law school graduates. At that point, they didn't have a chance. The year with no job that passed after graduation made them "damaged goods".

    (part 1)

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  11. (part 2)

    Lucky for us all, our school was a state school and so we took advantage of in-state tuition. But I would caution those who can't get into a state school, or a school comfortably within the top 50, to SERIOUSLY reconsider your decision to go to law school.

    It is a better bargain to get a two year vocational degree than it is to get a J.D. If you don't believe me, look it up. On average, a vocational degree is a much better bargain than a law degree.

    If I had to do it all over again, I probably would not go to law school. I make decent money, but I would be making more had I just stuck with the job I had before law school. I went to law school to make MORE money. Meanwhile, I have $30K in student loans to repay.

    Some law degrees are more useless than a degree in liberal arts from some podunk college. Again, IF YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT LAW SCHOOL, YOU SHOULD SERIOUSLY RE-THINK YOUR DECISION. LAW SCHOOLS LIE ABOUT PLACEMENT DATA, AND GET AWAY WITH IT.

    While worrying about finding a job after graduation, I was really mad about how the school could lie about its placement data. Also, I wondered how the school could possibly know how many students were "placed" after graduation. No one had ever called me to find out if/where I was working. So, I wrote a letter to the dean about my situation. His response was that the school had a career counselor that was available to meet with me the whole time I was there, and that I should have taken advantage of it. It appeared to be a form letter, so I guessed he had sent it out to many other similarly-situated graduates. The message was clear--"stop bitching. It's your fault you don't have a job."

    I hope this helps people who are considering law school. I wish blogs like this would have existed nine years ago when I left the bird in the hand to chase the two in the bush.

    Best of luck!

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  12. @6:49: "Isn't Leiter, in this paragraph, just dressing up a truism about the uncertainty of moral judgments with a lot of pompous bullshit to make us think that he is oh-so-smart." Yes. Also, I'm pretty sure he's misreading whoever he's responding to, as that is iirc basically what Thomas Kuhn said (except in the limiting category of "scientific culture," but not in isolation from the wider culture). However, I'll be happy to concede it, as, really, who gives a shit? I mean, it's *okay* to give a shit. I give a shit about the Legion of Super-Heroes and whether I get an heir in Crusader Kings. Everybody should have hobbies.

    However, the prospect that students, whom I am confident in predicting almost invariably could not give less of a shit, are being charged not just some money but substantial amounts of money for the production of such work is sickening.

    All that said, my favorite part is where he uses ten thousand dollar words like "epistemic" (I know what it means, but few people do and practically no one has a good reason to), while shortly thereafter accusing his reader of being a retard--"the Copernican theory of the heavens (meaning, just to be clear, that the sun, not the earth, is at the center of our solar system)" WELL NO KIDDING WHAT ELSE CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT 4TH GRADE SCIENCE IS THE EARTH FUCKING ROUND AS WELL?

    Highly frustrating, I agree.

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  13. I'm really curious as to how they count their employment statistics. GW has long been a place people who have mid-level administrative posts in government and the military attend in order to obtain credentials for advancing career, or moving into another agency.

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  14. Interesting choice, GW...I was accepted to this law school a few years ago, but ended up going somewhere else. $82K is a stupendous sum (not that they were charging that much back then).

    Is Nando going to profile any schools that are higher than #20 in the so-called rankings? T14 schools shouldn't get a pass...no school should charge $40K per year! Yes, that goes for you too, HYS.

    I wish Congress would pass a law saying that the ONLY payment these law schools could accept would be commissions on LEGAL work after graduation. Say, 20% of all client fees / firm salaries for the first four years after a student gets the degree. Let me tell you, there would be a fierce restructuring of law schools, from top to bottom. All but a few schools would have to drastically reduce faculty salaries, or they would run out of money and disappear. Not going to happen, of course, but it would be nice.

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  15. Many college grads can get a job making $30K a year. Add the opportunity cost to $82,000 and we are talking about $112K a year to attend this school, which is not even the best school in the region (UVa., G-town, Duke are better schools). I can't wrap my head about the the fact that lemmings will pay almost $350K for a watered down advanced liberal arts degree known as a JD. Add the interest to the loans and we are talking about almost $800K over 25 years.

    Final analysis: you deserve to get raped in the ass without lubrication if you don't pass on this school.

    ReplyDelete
  16. I for one think that lower tier Law Schools produce very valuable scholarship for their house organs.

    For instance, I learned about Witchcraft at Touro Law School in a Jurisprudence class.

    Also about faries and goblins and trolls, unicorns, and all things magical and wonderful in the land of make believe.

    A special place for me and you!

    ReplyDelete
  17. I'm a student/Teaching Assistant at George Washington, although not affiliated with the law school. Last semester I ran into some students who were talking about going to the law school when they graduate in order to become patent lawyers. They argued that G-dub's patent program is ranked amongst the best in the nation, and that George Washington itself is highly ranked. I told them that it wasn't highly ranked enough and that they needed to consider Georgetown on the other side of town. They argued that if they did that then they may as well go to Harvard, which (while true) they dismissed as ridiculous.

    Anyway, I'm feeling pain at my school's law school ending up on these pages, but really it is justified. The place also has the third highest tuition for undergraduates (which is actually an improvement as it used to be the highest).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well, TA, thanks for caring about your students' financial wellbeing. While I think that even Georgetown Law is dubious (it's basically a huge student factory), G'town is way better than GW.

      G-dub undergrad, last I heard costs $50+ grand per year. This is a ridiculous amount for a "campus" that's in the edge of the downtown DC business district.

      I really feel sorry for those budding civil servants with $150+ grand loans for $40 grand GS-7 positions. DC real estate ain't cheap either.

      Delete
  18. http://ip-whois-lookup.com/lookup.php?ip=150.212.43.221

    “OrgName: University of Pittsburgh
    OrgId: UNIVER-9
    Address: 728 Cathedral of Learning
    Address: Fifth and Bigelow
    City: Pittsburgh
    StateProv: PA
    PostalCode: 15260
    Country: US
    RegDate: 1988-05-18
    Updated: 2006-09-07
    Ref: http://whois.arin.net/rest/org/UNIVER-9”

    From my analytics:

    “Visits: 10
    Unique ID: 362569098
    IP address: 150.212.67.185 (ARIN/RIPE) (Name this visitor)
    Locale: Pittsburgh, PA, USA / English
    Platform: Firefox 10.0 / Mac OS X / 1024x768

    Feb 17 2012 9:28am 150.212.67.185 3 actions 3m 15s
    Feb 17 2012 9:05am 150.212.67.185 2 actions 12s
    Feb 16 2012 1:29pm 150.212.66.66 3 actions 5m 20s
    Feb 16 2012 11:24am 150.212.43.221 2 actions 3m 36s
    Feb 16 2012 11:09am 150.212.43.221 2 actions 12s
    Feb 15 2012 1:45pm 150.212.44.166 1 action 10s
    Feb 15 2012 1:18pm 150.212.44.166 6 actions 9m 3s
    Feb 9 2012 5:51pm 67.171.74.119 2 actions 6m 55s
    Feb 9 2012 3:52pm 67.171.74.119 1 action 10s”

    The anonymous pussy who posted on February 17, 2012 at 9:31 am is none other than “Doug” from Pittsburgh, PA. The guy often claims to be “close friends” with various “law professors.” He also lies about being a lawyer. At first, the mentally unbalanced retard stated that he was a retired cop looking at attending law school.

    This moron visits this site from the UniversiTTy of PiTTsburgh. (Yes, he MUST be a successful attorney, huh?!?!) Anyway, this piece of garbage apparently went to law school for one year, somewhere in Florida. He evidently returned to Pittsburgh, with his tail in between his legs. Once, the cockroach claimed to have passed the bar, making good money.

    The problem is that he only attended law school for one year. Apparently, the waterhead is unaware that it takes at least two years to earn a JD - at expedited programs. In the final analysis, the guy is a pathetic liar and a loser at life. Doug is an even bigger piece of waste than the cretin who allegedly transferred to a San Francisco law school, from WNEC. Furthermore, Doug should be committed to a mental institution.

    At one point, this sick bastard sent me - and another scam-blogger - naked pictures, supposedly of himself. He claimed to be married, but no woman with an IQ above 65 would stick with this pathetic bitch. In the end, he is thoroughly miserable - and spends his time playing with his little penis, while watching child porn.

    ReplyDelete
  19. @11:44 pm,

    I plan to take each ABA-accredited trash can, out to the curb. So far, I have profiled 106 different law schools on this blog. Currently, 92 schools remain. (Widener has two campuses, and the JAG school is also ABA-approved. I don't see the need to slam these two in$titution$.)

    Several readers have pointed out that “top 14” schools are often a terrible deal, for students. Graduates from top-rate legal programs have emailed me, and mentioned that they did not learn a damn thing about the practice of law, while in law school. Plus, MANY students will turn down significant scholarship money from a regional school or TTT - in order to pay sticker at an “elite” law school. This is insidious, as the shrinking legal job market is now affecting grads from these schools.

    http://www.law.gwu.edu/Academics/Pages/Journals.aspx

    Regarding worthless “legal scholarship,” check out the following TTT journals from “The” George Washington University Law Sewer:

    “International Law in Domestic Courts

    International Law in Domestic Courts founded in 2007, by Oxford University Press, is an online subscription service that reproduces and provides commentary on judicial decisions involving international law issues from around the world. Rapporteurs identify and propose the cases, then write scholarly commentaries (akin to case notes) on the cases accepted for inclusion in the database. GWU is the exclusive rapporteur for the United States, joining more than 70 rapporteurs from other countries. ILDC includes cases concerning international business law, family law, privileges and immunities, treaty law, environmental law, criminal law, foreign investment, human rights, humanitarian law, and all other subject areas of international law. There is no limit to the number of cases a student may submit. Students are selected for membership based on scores from the writing competition and interest in international law.”

    MANY American judges would rather cite to Jersey Shore than to foreign legal decisions. In light of reality, this journal should come in handy, right?!?!

    “The Journal of Energy and Environmental Law

    The Journal of Energy and Environmental Law is produced in collaboration with the Environmental Law Institute and is published twice each year. The journal focuses on legal issues related to next-generation energy production and distribution and on environmental and climate law issues related to the production of energy. Selection criteria for J.D. staff members are similar to those used by the Law Review. LL.M. students submit a resume, writing sample, and a statement of interest to be considered for membership.”

    If you cannot write onto this publicaTTTion while enrolled in law school, then you can try again as an LLM student!! Who wouldn’t want to take advantage of this “opportunity”?!?!

    ReplyDelete
  20. George Washington is a kind of scam superstar.

    45.7K tuition per year? Don't most law schools content themselves with scamming their students and the government out of 25-35K per year in tuition?

    A graduating class of between 512 and 556 students? GW could flood the DC market all by itself! Don't most law schools content themselves with ruining the lives of 200-300 students per year?

    ReplyDelete
  21. Those are humongous class sizes. And there are 7 law schools just in DC? Fuck me. G'town which is a T14 (still doesn't mean shit) has large class sizes too. I'm thinking they take in about 500 students each year. Those two schools alone could just about satisfy MD, VA, DC.

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  22. Here is the worst part about attending GW Law:

    http://www.gwhatchet.com/2011/09/08/gw-law-students-campaign-to-adjust-alcohol-policy/

    Apparently, GW law students rallied against the administration's "tough" alcohol policies, which if violated, could pose a bar to C&F and render a $300K law degree worthless. I wonder if GW law students can now drown their sorrows in bourbon.

    Here is an interesting article which punctuates a long standing theme of this blog: Connections trump grades and networking:

    http://businessweekly.readingeagle.com/?p=617

    THe law grad in question graduated from the expensive GWU as an undergrad and went to Stetson law. He could not find a job anywhere so he went to work for good ole dad who has a firm. The irony is this kid will have a more successful law career than most GW Law grads despite that he graduated from the lower ranked TTT Stetson. Suck on that GW Law.

    ReplyDelete
  23. @Nando,

    11:44 pm here again.

    I would definitely agree that the JAG School is in a different category. For one thing, you must have a JD before they'll even take you. And the courses are only a few months long.

    But the biggest difference is that they don't let you enroll unless JAG has already offered you a 4-year job as an attorney (and you've accepted it). Of course, the Army owns you for four years, but they get zero return on their investment until you start working as an attorney.

    Why can't law schools do that? They should only get paid if and when their graduates find legal work. The law school problem will not get fixed until society forces them to actually take a financial stake in the success of their students. If that ever happens, it would demolish their gravy train.

    As for your comment about American judges not caring about decisions from foreign courts, I only WISH it were true. These days, not even the SCOTUS is above this disgraceful practice. Especially Anthony Kennedy. And I'm sure you've heard all the noise Ruth Bader Ginsburg made about how superior the constitution of South Africa is to the American one she took an oath to defend. I suggest you give it a read sometime...it might easily have been written by the morons on a law school faculty.

    I'm sure that Ginsburg actually DOES read "International Law in Domestic Courts" (or maybe has one of her clerks do it). She probably never misses an issue.

    [climbs off soapbox]

    ReplyDelete
  24. GW is TTT compared to Duke, G'town and UVA.

    And any school that has to put the word 'the' in front of its name is suffering from some real inferiority complex. I don't care what your ranking is. But they're not as bad as the shitlings at THE Ohio State University.

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  25. GW is way too expensive. You can't justify this cost. This school is for rich kids who weren't smart enough to get into Princeton, Yale, Duke, etc.

    I've seen many from the middle class or lower class get in expecting this shithole to open doors for them. Little did they know they'd be fucked in the ass by going here. Once you go out into the work world and realize employers don't really give a shit about the 'name brand' of your diploma it's too late. It's good night sweet prince.

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  26. Looks like some kids have bad memories. Here is a refresher course. OK kiddies, ready? Here goes: If a law school is named after a U.S. President or U.S. Supreme Court Justice (past or present), then it is a TTT. You really think employers follow the USNWR rankings? That's just porn for college students. The T20 ranking and $4 won't even get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. Outside the top 10 law schools, the rankings are meaningless. You might as well split hairs.

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  27. I went to Georgetown University Law Center, and graduated a few years ago. GW is known as the school for Gtown rejects. GW's best students transfer to Gtown all the time (there were about five in my class). Even Gtown is suffering - perhaps the top 1/3rd are finding jobs now (it was about 75% in Biglaw when I graduated). The two schools pump out about 1200 lawyers (counting LLM's) per year. That's a shit load. It's also true that I didn't learn shit at Gtown - fancy profs, hard academics, and all liberal bullshit. During my three years, I had never heard of an "opposition" or "reply" brief, knew nothing about how to draft, serve and file a lawsuit, etc. We sure learned a lot about "policy" though - which has never helped me at all in the real world of practicing law.

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  28. GW = Georgetown Waitlist

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  29. I am surprised that GW 1Ls with good grades should transfer to georgetown. If their grades are great they should have no problem transfering to better schools.

    in my mind GW is THAT different from georgetown.
    Nando should profile georgetown very soon.

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    Replies
    1. Amen; I agree with you. G'town Law's classes of 600+ students and a wicked grading curve smells of predatory behavior to me.

      Delete
  30. 'Here goes: If a law school is named after a U.S. President or U.S. Supreme Court Justice (past or present), then it is a TTT'

    BWAHAHAHAHA. That sounds about right. Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, JOhn Marshall, and JFK all have schools named after them. They're all shit and some aren't even ABA accredited. UNH was Franklin Pierce Law Center for the longest time. If it's named after a politician, don't go there.

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  31. Is this what GW Law faculty members do during office hours?

    http://www.law.com/jsp/lawtechnologynews/PubArticleLTN.jsp?id=1202516557793&Attorney_Disbarred_After_Computer_Sex_Sting&slreturn=1

    It must be nice to surf the net for porn, talk to teenage sexpots and still draw a six figure salary. And who pays for this? The sucker students.

    ReplyDelete
  32. $500,000(Law School Dean Salary) and $1,000,000(President of College Salary) for a "non-profit" school, making their money off of putting twenty somethings into heavy debt. Let me give you a raise, so students with poor job prospects can be strapped that much more with debt, debt that they cannot eliminate through bankruptcy if the worst case scenario of big student debt and no job turns out(happening pretty frequently now).

    These academic people are scum. Big student Debt + No job= absolute misery, unless you are lucky and your parents can bail you out, if not you are screwed.

    They need to quit subsidizing higher education and get rid of all government support of student loans. Let the colleges supply the funding for going there. Colleges will stop mass producing people that cannot pay back student loans when they are on the hook. Right now colleges are not really incentivized to give a damn about outcomes beyond bringing in new crops of student loan signers.

    I feel zero warmth for my law school, and I went to a top one. I laugh when they send me requests to make donations or ask that I include them in my will. I got zero career services support. FU, you can pay the head of a college $1,000,000 but you want me to include you in my will. Why don't you cut into that Billion Dollar endowment if you want to accomplish something?

    Law school is a hustle and scam. They like to refer to high ideals, but it is all about putting in as many Benjamins in their pocket as possible. They don't care about ruined lives. They are scum. They are the worst of the worst in terms of scam artists. They should close half of the law schools, re-tool the education completely, fire everyone at the ABA and anyone of authority that has let this happen, and start over. Maybe, do an apprentice system.

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  33. Thank you for the link, 12:20 pm. Karen Sloan’s September 23, 2011 piece for the National Law Journal was entitled “Attorney Disbarred After Computing Sex Sting.” Here is an excerpt:

    “A former adjunct professor at George Washington University Law School was disbarred by the Maryland Court of Appeals on Thursday after pleading guilty to attempting to seduce minors on the internet.

    Richard Donald Lieberman was arrested in March following a sting operation conducted by agents with U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Lieberman was accused of e-mailing sexually explicit material to federal agents posing as 10- and 13-year-old girls in August 2010, according to a March report by The Washington Post.

    Lieberman initially was charged with two counts of using a computer to seduce a child, two counts of receiving online statements for the purpose of sexual conduct with a child, one count of transmitting harmful material to minors, and one count of lewd or lascivious battery.

    On Aug. 9, Lieberman pleaded guilty to reduced charges of receiving computer statements for the purpose of sexual contact with a child, use of a computer to seduce a child, and transmitting harmful material to a minor. He was sentenced to 15 years' probation and must register as a sex offender. He agreed to stop practicing law as part of a plea deal.”

    Of course, this law school industry propaganda outlet felt the need to write that Lieberman “taught advocacy sporadically at George Washington, most recently in the fall of 2010.” Who gives a damn that he only occasionally taught courses at this dung heap?!?!

    http://nearyou.gwu.edu/plx/announcements.html

    “May 11, 2010

    Bluebook Government Contract Citations Seminar

    As you may know, GW paralegal studies professors Richard Lieberman and Jason Morgan and paralegal master's alumnus Philip Greene have written a new section on government contracts citations for the 19th edition of the Bluebook, which will come out on June 1.

    We will be presenting a seminar on the new section at the GW Law School on May 11. This event is FREE for GW students.”

    http://www.tbd.com/articles/2011/03/richard-lieberman-charged-with-exploiting-child-in-flrodia-56301.html

    Here is a link the March 11, 2011 news story, detailing this pig’s arrest. The segment is labeled “Richard Lieberman charged with exploiting child in Florida.” At the 1:00 mark of this video, you can see Lieberman's stately mansion in Bethesda, MD. By the way, this swine sent his sick messages via Yahoo Messenger. What a bright criminal, huh?!?!

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  34. 1:32. I think that's what scares me the most about law school, not learning anything about what to actually do. I would love to start my own firm; heck, many students would, but we are not given the resources or tools to do such a thing. I still have no idea how to do half the 'real world' stuff that law school doesn't teach. It's crazy!

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  35. I guess somewhere deep inside, I knew law school wasn't as viable as it looked..even before I started reading scamblogs a year ago. Sad to hear that even a "top 20" school is " :P ", but at least it'll take the sting out of my likely failure to get admitted when I apply next year.

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  36. I have many attronies in my family, and all of them are fully employed. Some went to great law schools and others went to crappy ones. At the end of the day it's not the fact that you have a law degree, it's what you do with it. I have cousins who graduated and excepted the red sea to part just because they had a law degree.Many of my cousins knew that times had changed,so they had to put in some real work after graduation to find a firm that would be willing to take them. I have a cousin right now who is doing very well in her law practice. She graduated with NO OFFERS!but she had a plan! she went out there and got the connections that she needed. After three years of meeting the right people and even kissing a few asses she is now doing very well. Yeah! she worked a job that only paid her 45,000 for a few years, but it helped keep a roof over her head and gas in her car. She now makes wayyyyyyyyyyyy more money simply because she never gave up on her dream. So many law students need to understand that times have changed. Gone are the days of instant job placment unless you graduated from a top college. It's time to start thinking outside of the box, that's the only way to survive.

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  37. Who said anything about lawyers expecting jobs great jobs once they have a law degree? The thing others have pointed out is a law degree is usually a hindrance if you want to do something else.

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  38. Nando, I realize every law school will get its day of reckoning on TTR. I am ok with that. I just want to thank you for your hard work. I think it is poetic justice that GW Law School was profiled during President's Day. I am sure George Washington is rolling in his grave knowning that a cabal of money hungry administrators slapped his name onto a business enterprise which they coined "higher education."

    If you need further evidence of this school's unmitigated greed, look no further than the following link:

    http://www.onlinegwu.com/plx/program_overview.asp

    Hell, if a JD won't help a GW alum land a legal job, maybe a masters in their "world renowned" paralegal studies program will help you.

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  39. From the GW Paralegal Studies website:

    "The paralegal profession is among the fastest growing in America. The Bureau of Labor Statistics expects paralegal employment to increase by at least 27 percent nationwide through 2014. CNN's Money Magazine cited the paralegal profession among the top 20 jobs in America for 2007."

    Hey assholes, update your website. 2007 was half a decade ago. But why bother to address how the 2008 crash, the Great Recession and the contraction in the legal industry has affected that 2007 rosy outlook. Keep selling the pipe dream that a JD or Masters in Paralegal Studies is the golden ticket.

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  40. My alma mater law school contacts me at least 4 times a year during their seasonal alumni scholarship drive. They have current law students call me at 9PM, sometimes 10PM when I am drunk (yes kids, alcohol helps me cope with the shit that I do as a lawyer) asking for money. The law student will say "the State is cutting down on student aid, we need your support to help "Carlitos" or "Leroy" achieve their dream." I usually tell the cold caller/law student to go tell the dean that I will match every dollar they gain and redistribute into a scholarship fund from salary reductions accepted by the law school faculty. To date, no professor has accepted a salary reduction, thus, I have no money to match as a contribution. I then ask the student why the fuck he/she hasn't dropped out of law school. Sometimes the student will ask why I feel the way I do about my law school. I just tell them go see your CSO director. I treat the law school the same way I was treated by the school's CSO director and her attitude was "I don't give a fuck if you get a job, but if you do, please report back to us so we can get credit for it." Fuck my alma mater and fuck law school.

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    Replies
    1. They at least have had the right mind to have never contacted me; I would not waste a penny of my money on the joint. They do waste my time sending letters asking for donation or the GW Law alum magazine; I have to take valuable energy to toss both into the recycling bin.

      Delete
  41. It seems certain law students cry about is the great exceptations that they had after law school. A law degree is a blessing, because I've seen it work for everyone in my family. I can only name one fool in our family who went to school and cried that his law degree didn't open the doors he excepted. I mean really? crying over a law degree? is law school overpriced? yes it is! beyond over priced like pretty much everything else in this country. I've seen family members and friends recieve their degrees and do wonderful things with it. Some had connections and others did not. A law degree opened up doors for everyone in my family. The only poor law school graduates I have met are the ones who couldn't even pass the bar exam and those that excepted the red sea to part for them because they went to "law school". If you didn't graduate from Havard and other "TOP" schools, please know that you are going to have to work hard or find a smart way to gain a big bucks law job.

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  42. ^ignore the troll.

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  43. Is George Washington the highest ranked toilet school yet profiled on TTR?

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  44. I can't wait until my law school alma mater is profiled-- Washington and Lee, another lower-first-tier trap school.

    Here is a teaser:

    http://law.wlu.edu/admissions/ninemonthdata.asp

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  45. You need to profile another "trap" school. I will give you two hints: 1) it is located in NYC and 2) It is appropriately named after an inferior American car manufacturer and a piece of deli meat. Nando, there are people drowning in debt coming from that place. People who owe close to $300K with horrible employment prospects.

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  46. Here is proof that the pigs and cockroaches at George Washington University Law Sewer GAMED THE RANKINGS!

    http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2009/10/06/unhappy-with-its-us-news-ranking-gw-law-trims-night-program/

    On October 26, 2009, Ashby Jones posted an article for the Wall Street Journal Law Blog, under the header "Unhappy With its U.S. News Ranking, GW Law Trims Night Program." Here is an excerpt:

    "If you ever were to doubt how much power is wielded in the law school world by Bob Morse and the other staffers at U.S. News & World Report, let the following article convince you otherwise.

    According to a George Washington University newspaper, the GW Hatchet, the university’s law school “took significantly fewer evening students this year in an attempt to combat an eight-place drop in the U.S. News and World Report Rankings.”

    According to the article:

    Senior Associate Dean Greg Maggs told about a dozen law school alumni at “The State of Law School” address that the school’s fall from 20th to 28th was caused mainly by an unannounced change in the way U.S. News and World Report tracks part-time law student GPAs.

    “U.S. News, for the first time, without giving us any notice, said they wanted to count full-time and part-time students mixed together,” Maggs said. “Both our GPA and our LSAT [scores] fell substantially from previous years.”

    So what did GW do? Simply take its lumps and accept its place as the 28th-ranked law school? Hardly. The school decided to take fewer night students. “We’ve been able to address that in a very simple way,” Maggs said. “We’ve taken less evening students.”

    Isn’t is comical and pathetic that Comb Over Boy Gregory E. Maggs, now “professor of law” and co-director of the National Security and U.S. Foreign Relations Law Program, was crying about not being warned by Pussy Bob Morse, about the (minor) change?! I guess Maggs felt that his “institution of higher learning” is entitled to lie to students, and should be given “notice” of any changes - so that the commode can make sure that it’s rating does not suffer. Get a life, Gregory.

    http://www.law.gwu.edu/Faculty/profile.aspx?id=1769

    ReplyDelete
  47. Check out these user comments on the Ashby Jones piece cited above:

    And we call this deflection wrote the following, on October 6, 2009 4:02 pm:

    Nice to see GW throwing its evening students under the bus, despite the fact that U.S. News and World Report said the drop wasn’t about evening students — http://media.www.gwhatchet.com/media/storage/paper332/news/2009/04/27/News/Law-School.Ranking.Drops-3727362.shtml

    But Robert Morse, director of data research for U.S. News, called Lawrence’s claim “incorrect.”

    “That is not the full reason,” he said. “U.S. News has done calculations that say GW would have fallen in the rankings because of relatively weak placement data. It was a culmination of factors.”

    Morse said what hurt GW the most were poor showings in the selectivity and job placement categories.”

    On October 7, 2009 at 12:01 pm , Randy Taylor wrote:

    "It’s sad because it’s the part-time students, WHO ACTUALLY HAVE JOBS AND ARE CONTRIBUTING TO SOCIETY WHILE GOING TO SCHOOL CONCURRENTLY, who will be the most valuable immediately after graduation. These are folks who can handle pressure and are more likely to have the inter-disciplinary background which is necessary these days. Also, they tend to be a little bit older and more experienced in that other school, The U. of Life. Much more employable, part-timers tend to have the kinks worked out before starting a legal career."

    At 2:29 pm on October 7, 2009, Fiat Lex wrote:

    "What jobs? Top firms quit hiring 14 months ago, there is no Class of 2008 or 2009. Those days are gone forever, all you kids will ever get is a lifetime of debt from your student loans that you can pay off by working at Blockbuster. Law schools are businesses designed to make money off of rich kids who have no skills."

    On October 7, 2009 at 10:57 pm, GWU wrote:

    "Career center at GW Law is a joke. Lots of firms visit DC and only go to Georgetown, which makes no sense since GW is a quality school and is only about 20 blocks away. The career center over there sucks, as does most of the administration."

    Igor Jose wrote the following, on October 10, 2009 at 11:15 pm:

    "The ranking debacle was the result of the poor employment figures, not the evening student statistics. Dean Lawrence should be replaced by a savvy corporate lawyer who would strength the CDO and the curriculum in areas other than “animal law.”

    Does anyone get the impression that the school accepts too many students, and that the career “development” office sucks ass?!

    ReplyDelete
  48. For many years, Georgetown U. Law CENTER (that's what you call a place that dumps 600+ JDs on the market every year) blamed their evening division's lower admissions numbers as the reason why they occupied the bottom rung of the T14/T15 (which they now share with UTexas-oh the humanity). Gee I don't know, maybe it has to do with their enormous Day Division's class sizes?

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  49. Quite by accident I came upon an article in the student paper The GW Hatchet. 'Law School receives $1 million gift for aid' the article said. Knowing how interested you guys might be I can summarize or you can go here http://www.gwhatchet.com/2012/02/21/law-school-receives-1-million-gift-for-aid/

    The summery"
    James Humphreys, who graduated from GW law in 1979, has decided to give a million bucks to GW law to be put towards providing scholarship money to law school students. 50 percent of students in GW law receive financial aid of some kind, most of which comes from the school's operating budget. His rationale for doing this is that his law degree has been instrumental in making him financially secure, his father had been a garbage-man. He said also that nobody should be denied an education based on their race, gender, or economic circumstances.
    He has previously given $3 million to endow professorships and to found the James F. Humphreys Litigation Center.
    Humphreys will also sit on a new committee of donors to strategize about the school's fundraising future. Law school officials hope that the gift will inspire other alumni to give to the law school.

    The law school officials include Rich Collins, vice president for development and alumni relations and Paul Schiff Berman, a law school dean hired for his ability to raise money. They are looking to grow the law school's $120 million endowment in order to increase the number of scholarships that students get as well as law school research."

    My comments
    I think I feel spin here, but I don't think I'm cynical enough to give this the analysis that it deserves. In the same paper, we see the University raising graduate tuition by between 1.6 percent and 10 percent, which for some departments will be the largest tuition hike in the history of the University. See here ->
    http://www.gwhatchet.com/2012/02/21/tuition-jumps-for-graduate-programs/
    President Knapp (Who makes a million dollars) said that the hike keeps GW in line with its peer institutions.
    I also wonder about the charitable utility of giving a law school money versus giving money to some other entity.

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  52. In a truly ironic twist (see story at asialawblogging.com) the job market in America is so bad, that we can now compete with the wages LPOs in India pay, thus paving the way for doc review jobs to come BACK to the U.S.!

    ReplyDelete
  53. GW reminds me in many way of Boston University - another overpriced, rich kid school that ass rapes its students all at the expense of enriching the administrators. I went to BU undergrad for two years before I wised up and got the hell out. I figured I saved my self at least $40,000 ... at least! I know one GW law graduate I worked with. He was nothing more than a document reviewer at the firm I was at. Only go to this school if you have rich parents footing the bill. Otherwise, you are 100% screwed. Don't come complaining to me when you graduate from this place in a few years without a job. You have been warned.

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  54. I transferred to GW from a TTTT. I paid 34k(stop the raping!!!!) for my 1L year and then turned down a an 22k(I would pay 12k a year) in order to attend GW. Do you think I made the right decision? I figured that I had already taken on so much debt, I might as well go to a better school.

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  55. What going on here? why people are so aggressive.

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  56. Its not worth going to law school these day unless you go to a tier 1 school, and even then, its probably still not worth it. Aside from the cost of living, unless you go to one of the few state schools in the first tier, they all cost about the same. And I don't know about you, but I would rather live in DC than say Gainesville or Columbus. These days, go big or go home. If you decide to take the huge financial risk and go to law school, at least go to a school like GW where you have a fighting chance at big law. I graduate from GW in 2012 and sure I have tons of debt, but so do my friends who went to second tier law schools. At the end of the day, every one will probably go on income-based repayment which translates to go to the best school you get into unless you get a full ride to a 2nd tier school. Then by all means go for free and kick ass. But if you are like me, and the lower tier schools just gave you like $15K/year, its not worth it. I have a six figure job now and I will tell you people are always impressed that I went to GW law (I did IP). I should add, that if you are straight from undergrad with a bachelors in arts, DONT GO TO LAW SCHOOL. Again, DONT GO! There are 10,000,000 people with those qualifications and you probably won't get a job (95% chance you don't get one). Now if you have other skills that are not as common, then maybe you should think about it. If you are already marketable, then law school will make you more marketable. But if you are not already marketable, law school will make you less marketable. Ironic, but true.

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  57. It all boils down to this. There's too many people for too few jobs and that's not going to change in any field. Instead of so many bitching how about everyone get together and make a change for it. That is unless you'd rather continue to let the rich that inherited great-great-grandaddies wealth and get to go to the Ivy schools because they are legacies, though often dumb as dog shit in reality without special testings to claim them to be intelligent, have everything because they look out for each other while screwing the average person over. Every now and then you have to kick someone in the ass to get their attention.

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  58. What a grossly overpriced shithole. Only rich cocksuckers should go here.

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  59. I just want to leave this here in case anyone considering ANY GW grad program finds this blog - that entire place is a scam. I grauated from one of their "Master's of Professional Studies" programs in 2012 - a year later after receiving a bizarre email from them I discover that I was supposed to have applied to graduate. That's right - after completing all my graduation requirements, I was supposed to fill out a form REQUESTING that I be allowed to graduate. Because literally no one ever told me this, I'm now looking at late fees at best (which will hit me hard since that useless degree hasn't gotten me anywhere near a job yet) and losing my degree at worst. fuck that place so hard forever.

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  60. This is an interesting blog. I do concur with an earlier statement that the problem is that the majority of Law school graduates are those with non-technical background; thus, it is not a suprise that so many of you have had challenges securing great paying jobs subsequent to completing Law school.

    In my case, I have a B.Sc. in Mechanical Engineering, M.Sc. in Aerospace Engineering and Ph.D in Aerospace Engineering and I have worked for the DoD for nearly 6 years. I say this because I am considering Law school in an attempt to become an IP Attorney. So, I can safely surmise that the majority of Law school graduates do not have my background!

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  61. Personally, I wouldn't hire any one of you. You have decided you are not responsible for your own outcomes and seek to blame everyone You should all go into torts.

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