Wednesday, April 4, 2012

Monstrous Law Student Debt Figures, for the JD Class of 2011

Law Professors Finally Get Off Their Ass, and Mention This Problem:

On Saturday, March 24, 2012, Brian Tamanaha, professor at Washington University in St. Louis, wrote a piece on Balkinization, under the banner “The Quickly Exploding Law Graduate Debt Disaster.” Here is his opening paragraph:

“The average indebtedness figures for 2011 law graduates are stunning. Last year, 4 law schools had graduates with average debt exceeding $135,000. This year 17 law schools are above $135,000. Last year the highest average debt among graduates was $145,621 (Cal. Western); this year the highest average debt is $165,178 (John Marshall). Below are the 20 schools with the highest average law school debt among graduates (these figures do not include undergraduate debt).” [Emphasis mine]

This is truly troubling, for the law students and recent graduates. After all, the banksters and “institutions of higher education” bear NONE of the risk, in these transactions. Tamanaha continued:

“What's remarkable is that the majority of graduates from these law schools - with the exception of Northwestern - do not obtain jobs with salaries sufficient to make the monthly loan payments due on the average debt. At some of these schools 90% or more of graduates with debt do not earn enough to make the loan payments on this level of debt (not all indebted students will carry the average debt).

This refutes the view of one moronic, current Hofstra Law student, who told me that many will be able to repay such huge debt figures.  Then again, this same tool stated that "Law is absolutely an honorable profession."  Tamanaha concluded his article, in part:

“Thousands of 2011 law graduates across the country will not earn enough to manage the debt they incurred to obtain their law degree. 

When will law schools decide that they cannot continue to inflict ever increasing levels of unmanageable debt on their students? At the very least, the admissions offices at law schools across the country should explicitly warn students that anyone who expects to incur law school debt above $100,000 will likely suffer financial distress upon graduation unless they land a NLJ 250 job or a public service job that qualifies for reduced loan payments--and admitted students should be told that relatively few graduates get these jobs. Unfortunately, we cannot count on law schools to provide this message--which, if effective, would result in some schools closing their doors for lack of enough paying students.  [Emphasis mine]

If the law school swine had ANY integrity or moral compass, then they would provide such a warning to potential applicants and students.  However, it is CLEAR that these academics simply do not care how many students and graduates they consign to a lifetime of debt servitude.

On his March 25, 2012 entry, “The blue pill,” professor Paul Campos notes the following, while citing to the 2013 edition of US “News” & World Report’s law student indebtedness rankings:

“[L]aw schools have become absurd and corrupt and simply crazy places, as illustrated nicely by the latest student debt figures. The median debt at the 191 law schools who reported data for the class of 2011 was $105,028, up 5.84% from 2010's figure of $99,236. This happens to be just about exactly the percentage by which tuition went up for the national class of 2011 relative to the class of 2010. At this point, law school tuition is so high that tuition increases will be close to 100% debt-financed by the nearly 90% of graduates who take on law school debt.

And keep in mind that these figures, as always, omit other educational debt.” [Emphasis mine]

At least, some legal academics are starting to look at the average law student indebtedness figures, published by US “News" and Vagina Bob Morse.  I have been citing to these USN&WR numbers on my blog, since August 22, 2010.

Others Comment on This Recent Development:

On March 28, 2012, Matt Leichter wrote a piece labeled “ABA Journal Discovers US News’ Debt Rankings,” on his Law School Tuition Bubble blog. Here is an excerpt, where he cites to the March 28, 2012 ABA Journal piece, from Debra Cassens Weiss, entitled "Average Debt of Private Law School Grads Is $125K; It’s Highest at These Five Schools":

“Meanwhile, U.S. News & World Report has released its own figures on the “10 law schools that lead to the most debt.” At those 10 schools, average student debt was more than $147,000 in 2011.”

Take a look at Leichter’s closing:

“Again, this what the ABA says. It does not come out and say, “There aren’t enough lawyer jobs for everyone, many of these careers don’t need law degrees, and the people who don’t report their employment or salaries do so because they were hosed.” See for yourself; it’s a gold mine. Between U.S. News’ “5 Ways to Strengthen Your Law School Application” and the ABA’s whitewashing of legal education’s value, I wonder why there aren’t more scam blogs. Pravda has nothing on these contemporary American institutions.”

Conclusion: As psychotherapist, and former Biglaw associate, Will Meyerhofer wrote, on November 3, 2010: "Anything that leaves you two hundred grand in a hole is not increasing your “versatility” – it’s trapping you in hell."  It is nice to see that others are starting to cite to the USN&WR law student indebtedness ratings. I have been doing so, for a while, while profiling these ABA-accredited dung pits.  In the end, this is the most important ranking, in that entire fish wrap.  

If you are considering law school, don't be a dumbass and simply think about the potential benefits.  You also need to take a hard look at the likely downsides, of pursuing a "legal education."  If you incur an additional $100K+ in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt, this WILL affect your chances to own a home, get married, or have children.  Good luck opening up a business line of credit, with such outstanding debt.  The banks and mortgage companies are aware that student loans must be re-paid.  Furthermore, THE U.S. LAWYER JOB MARKET IS SHRINKING.  Lastly, non-legal employers view JDs and attorneys suspiciously, i.e. they are not too keen on hiring people they view as litigious.  Do you get the picture, lemming?!


  1. I have told everyone I know about these issues in legal education, including the admins at my law school. My question is this: for those of us who were "hosed" or shilled, or fooled, how do we move forward with our lives? I just want to move on and be free from the debt and the stigma of my legal education. It appears as though this is becoming harder and harder to do. Again, how do I move on from this crappy situation of unemployment and debt servitude?

  2. A number of laws were broken (which I document below -and which these LAW students should recognise). Therefore, these problems are NOT the fault of the Student Borrower. LIBERAL commenters who have addressed this issue on other blogs are clueless -let me explain -- They miss the key "cause-and-effect" relationship: I'm a true Conservative, and I can straighten out these 'fake' conservative commenters ... observe:

    Skyrocketing tuition is going through the roof (at a rate MUCH faster than inflation, even though this is no justification exists: Quality of American Higher Education has gone DOWN, as America keeps falling behind other nations in math, sciences, job skills, etc.).

    But WHY?

    Well, removal of bankruptcy protections from student loans, combined with draconian collection powers (such as wage garnishment) on already inflated original principals, combined with VERY heavy late fees, penalties, and interest, mean that the Department of Education makes about $1.22 for every dollar of defaulted student loans, and private lenders make a similar (if not greater) amount.

    Since the Dept of Ed benefits more when students default, they have NO incentive to advise U.S. Congress to STOP raising the loan limits for Student Loans, and, of course, when students can borrow more, dishonest colleges & Universities "raise tuition to match" the increased borrowing abilities of students --even though not justified (quality of Education plummets).

    This, of course, is known as distorting the 'Free Market,' bidding up (or 'ginning up) prices, and is akin to illegal sub-prime predatory lending, which caused a Bubble in Housing (which burst, as we recall? -and which WILL cause one in Higher Ed as well!).

    Since use of tax dollars to make (and guarantee) Student Loans drives up tuition, this is bad:
    A) It hurts students when tuition goes through the roof; and,
    B) It hurts taxpayers, who are the ones *paying* for these loans to be made and backs. -LOL- Double trouble... Since college tuition has increased at a rate MUCH faster than inflation for decades, college is no longer affordable. BUT it gets worse...

    CONSERVATIVES listen up:
    Tuition is LEGALLY a tax, by definition, since it is funding going to an arm of the Government (usually Colleges & Universities are STATE Colleges), and tuition, which has gone up MUCH faster than inflation is over-taxing students, a point which should convince "true Conservatives to call for a refund of the over-charge here: Conservatives supposedly oppose over-taxation, right?

    Also, a number of things about this are illegal, which are violations of the "CONSERVATIVE 'Rule of Law," another thing that 'true' Conservatives should find as proof that I am right here:

    (#1) Removal of said Standard Consumer Protections AFTER the student signed the loan contract illegally violates well-settled Contract Law, insofar as it *changes* the terms of the Student Loan Contract AFTER it was signed. This is illegal, and would get shot down in court were it any other group, other than "small and voiceless" students who have no political clout.

    (#2) violates Equal Protection, insofar as Student Loans are the *only* types of loans NOT granted these 'Standard Consumer Protections' (truth in lending; bankruptcy proceedings; statutes of limits; the right to refinance; adherence to usury laws; and, Fair Debt & Collection practices, etc.).

    (I ran out of space -- see part II)

    // Gordon Wayne Watts - LAKELAND, Fla.

  3. (Part 2 from my prior post)

    *** MORE LAWS that were BROKEN ***
    Also... (#3) Since American colleges hold a monopoly on Higher Ed in this country, their price-gouging is illegal. Monopoly by, say, electric or phone companies would cause a revolt, but students aren't as numerous as say homeowners or renters, so they're easily victimised. (Doesn't this remind us how how ALL 'minority groups' which "aren't as numerous" as the "majority" groups -be they women, Blacks, or -as in my case -Native American Indians have been mistreated?) Plus,...

    Further: (#4) It can be argued that the students signed under duress, since the job market's hard even for those WITH college educations, much less those without.

    In fact, while many people would say students "had a choice," at least ONE Attorney General disagrees. Observe:

    Illinois attorney general's office plans to sue Westwood College

    Among the complaints against the for-profit school are poor job-placement rates, high-pressure sales tactics, low graduation rates, excessive profit margins and the burdening of students with crushing debt

    January 18, 2012|By Gregory Karp, Chicago Tribune reporter

    (Fair Use excerpt) "The Illinois attorney general's office is lashing out at Westwood College, which has four Chicago-area campuses, claiming the institution misleads students enrolled in its criminal justice program, putting them deep in debt and saddling them with a nearly worthless degree for pursuing careers in Illinois law enforcement."

    For a good analysis of my earlier points, see my friend's story on this issue:

    For further info, point your web browser to:


    for documentation of this -and for how this has contributed to a SPIKE in Student Suicides, for the first time in our nation's history -- SOMEBODY has blood on their hands...

    Gordon Wayne Watts - LAKELAND, Fla.

    Notes to self: akin to sub-prime and mortgage fraud lending -and predatory lending, which distorts the free market, causing a bubble.

  4. Pretty sound arguments there. But are we ever going to see judges rule against the system?

  5. TTT2: Rise of the Lemmings

  6. Datgum Kentucky fuckin' Wildcats won demselves anudda fuckin' nashunul champ'nship. Yes, they done sholy did. Did the fuckin' commonwealth real fuckin' proud too.

    You shoulda seen Da Colonel tippin' over cars and burnin' couches in da street like a drunk ol' sumbitch. I got so fucked up, I almos' done made a big ol' mistake. I was fixin' t' git ready t' tell UK fans I was gonna give away free buckets o' chickin. I mean, gotdamn, ever'body'll love dat shit. Then I came to (from my drunken stupor) and soon knew dis was a shit ass idea, if I ever done damn had one in mah muthafuckin' head. If I'da done gave away free chickinz, muthafuckas woulda done set fire to mah res'raunts and tipped over cars in mah parkin' lots.

    And you aint gonna see too many mothafuckas graduatin' 'n shit from dat them there here law college done yonder over there wit' a $150K in debt. Now grab yerself a fuckin' side orda a tater salad or some good ol' corn on da fuckin' cob. Enjoy your nashunal champ'nship 'n shut da fuck up al'ready.

    1. That's some fine comedy, Colonel.

  7. I know lawyers in their 40s and early 50s that are still paying for the JD they financed in the late 80s and early 90s. Back then, the average law school debt was $30 or $40K. I cannot fathom how kids can pay $150K or $200K in student loans, especially when legal job opportunities are shrinking and there are no openings in my area for Space Law, Equine Law or International Law specialists.

  8. These days it is a terrifying gamble to take 150K+ in nondischargeable and interest-accruing debt to attend a T14. But to attend fucking Thomas Jefferson? To attend John Marshall, the worst of Chicago's six law schools? A kid would be making a far more prudent financial investment by borrowing 150K and heading straight to Vegas or the nearest racetrack to try his or her luck.

    Here, for laughs, are TJ's 2010 employment stats, nine months out.

    At first glance, the numbers are merely horrible--69 out of 221 had full-time bar required jobs, nine months out--55 of whom obtained law firm jobs. However, even these stats are a scam. If you look closely, the vast majority of law firm jobs are in solo or small firm law or in a firm of "unknown size." Lawyers in these categories are probably making nominal sums of money or none at all. Moreover, the 221 total constitutes only those who responded to the survey, not to the entire class of graduates.

  9. Nando, I love the blog and your aggressive, pull no punches writing style. But let me suggest something. Your header should say "(1) Unless you get into a top 3 law school."

    Outside of HYS, these kids are taking a serious gamble. And unlike the slots or craps tables, they can't get it discharged in BK court. That chart was more sobering than one of your trademark toilet photos. And my debt keeps me up at night. I couldn;t imagine owing $165,000.

  10. The best bet is to max out on all the loans, then cash out and move outside the juridiciton of the US Courts while starting a new life with the student loan money in another counrty.

  11. I was on the phone yesterday with the US Dept of Ed. and the woman I spoke with there told me that my 320K SL Principal balance is accruing sixty seven dollars a day in interest, or 2 thousand dollars a month.

    I cannot afford that.

    In fact the interest on my student loan debt is more than I make in net income for an entire year.

    Yet there is no bankruptcy allowed for such a situation and all of it is extrememly stressful and a horrible way to live.

    No second chance. No bankruptcy protections.

    And NO ONE in Congress will do anything about it.

    1. Hey many times did you fail the bar? No doubt law school can ruin you but if you invest the amout you did and cant even qualify to practice you dont deserve sympathy. We all know the risks. I am tired of bailing people out. I paid my loans and sacrificed until they were paid. Even with all this info in the internet age, if you take this risk and fail its on you.

    2. I have less sympathy for you than I do for other student loan debtors because you are not even bothering to attempt to pay your loans. You are ignoring them. You are not struggling like someone earning $35000 per year who is paying their loans. You are struggling like someone earning $35000 per year who is not paying their loans. You are far better off than someone who is actually paying their loans. In other words it's easier to ignore loans than pay them and while you owe a lot of money, it's because you have just decided not to pay.

  12. I finished 1L: but dropped after reading grim job outlook. I debated on the return on investment and time to allocate towards the JD and Bar exam (calculated fulltime job + 2L + family) = 0 left!
    I have BS/BM and MBA, debt $105k, been a professional level for 12 years and can't "afford" to follow my dream.

    Too, bad too because I can shut a "lawyer" up!

    If the outlook improves i may return, but its not looking to bright!

  13. In that March 28, 2012 piece, Campos continued his well-reasoned assault on the industry:

    "Law schools are supposedly prestigious educational institutions, full of people who explicitly and even more so implicitly represent ourselves every day to our students as serious, honorable people, who can be trusted. When a law school's administration and faculty require students to incur six figures of educational debt to get a law degree, we are representing that this decision makes sense for most if not all of our students. To claim we're not doing this is nothing but shameless rationalization. Why else do we crank out glossy brochures, full of purple words on a grey background? Why else do deans give inspirational welcoming speeches to each incoming class? Why else do we spend tens of millions on buildings that will instantiate through architecture the idea that what is going on here is important and worthwhile and, most of all, economically rational for all those who enter here?

    That all this has become a huge, blatant, immoral, and unsustainable illusion is a thought that cannot be thought by people who do not - who cannot - question the constitutive beliefs that make up the very basis of the social frame in which they operate. For such people that idea is no more plausible than the idea that the sensory world is an illusion."

    In the final analysis, the law school cockroaches are selling lemmings on “prestige.” Let’s see how that works out for MANY of the students and recent grads who end up working in call centers, selling insurance, interviewing at temp hag agencies, living in their parents’ basement, tending bar, interning at legal aid societies, working as cashiers, etc.

    The schools are ethically-challenged. They feel that they can distort, manipulate and twist the employment placement figures – with no repercussions. After all, according to these $elf-intere$ted academic swine, it is up to the students – the one time consumer of “legal education” to perform their due diligence, and research their decision. When the schools and “professors” place the onus on the students, it shows you CLEARLY that they do not give one damn about them – other than as a means to an end.

  14. Okay, so my school said 95% of us would get 160K/year to start. But actually only 10-15% would get offers like that IN A GOOD YEAR. So, starting today, my GPA is going up to a 3.92. Sure, I might lose my license, but what's that worth anyway? Pretty soon the market will be flooded with 3.9's, at which point nobody's degree will be worth jack.

  15. This comment has been removed by the author.


    2. Dude, don't commit suicide. Here's what you do. A) stop paying student loans, not a penny more, and start hording cash; B) do a fake meltdown and call the suicide hotline, saying you're going to end it all; C) cops and ambulance show up at your place and cart you off to psych ward, where you'll stay for a few days, but they let you out eventually due to lack of beds; D) get back to normal life and try to gather up as much money as possible; then E) leave a suicide note, but make a run for it instead, disappear from the North American continent forever.

  16. This comment has been removed by the author.

  17. This comment has been removed by the author.

    1. Don't bust on Campos. He has done lots to legitimize this entire issue and he is an important voice. He has not stolen this issue from anyone.

  18. JD, forgive the assholes their trespasses. if you are seriously having those thoughts, just leave the fucking country. The US is a shithole and it's sinking fast.

  19. Although not a law school, it looks like another school of "higher education" is being taken to the woodshed with another lawsuit by former students.

  20. Anyone that attends University of Phoenix School of Law, besides paying $150,000+ for the "privilege" to do so, deserves everything that is coming to them, i.e., a life of desperation and homelessness. People must have a death wish to go to one of these 20 schools (outside of Northwestern). TJ, Phoenix, etc., you've got to be kidding me. If that's the best you can do, you don't deserve to attend law school.

    1. re: university of phoenix; wait theres online law schools now?

  21. ^Hey fuckhead. I know you wanna put all the blame on students. But should the schools be allowed to fuck over the taxpayer? Because a bailout is coming. It's only a matter of time.

  22. It is useless to post about all this anymore.

    There never will be a bailout, or caps on interest, or consumer bankruptcy protections for Student Loan Debt.

    So I am writing a novel.

    One of the novel's main themes is living with American Student Loan Debt.

    I will get the novel published, and hopefully make enough money to pay off all my quadrupled student loan debt, with all interest, so that I can remain in America, my home.

    Thereafter I will work on setting up a private fund to bail out other student loan debtors.

    You can read portions of my novel on my blog.

  23. JD..not much sympathy for you man. Lawyers and wanna be lawyers are on the upper level of intelligence in this country. I recall 20 years ago when I had my shitty liberal arts degree and wanted to go to law school, employment statistics had really nothing to do with my decision. My employment options were limited and even taking out a 50k loan knowing full well that getting a job would be tough not being connected, there were no expectations. Either way when I got out either as a lawyer or doing something else, I would pay my loans. I passed the bar and I practiced law. PAid my loans. Back then detailed analysis was not required like it is today.

    As tuition went up, what fool would not do more research before making a decision to go to law school and take out loans. The internet helped and with the cost, you would be a fool not to talk to people who graduated and practiced to find out how much they actually made and how hard it is to get a job and make real money. If you went and paid exhorbitant prices to a private 4th tier like Touro, you either took a calculated risk or you are just a dummy going forward blind like that.

    Any argument you have about schools lying etc go out the window if you did not bother to pass the bar. How many times did you take and fail? If you chose not to take it and took a different profession, its your choice, but you cant criticize a cost until you passed the bar and could not get a job.

    With the dramatic increase in cost of education has come excellent blogs like this which explain the risks. If you still go thinking you will be an exception and get rich, good for you, but when you fail, dont whine asking for a bailout.

    I firmly believe the number of kids who go to law school because they firmly believe that they will get salaries quoted to them by schools is minimal. Kids know its all uncertain and there are lots of factors in determining how much you make. They either go because they think being a lawyer is what they want or because it will impress others or they simply dont like the job prospects a liberal arts degree brings.

    With all the information out there, taking out massive loans from a shit school and not even being able to pass the bar gives you no credibility to whine. I feel for you but you didnt do your homework before or after you went to law school and to expect others to let you off the hook is just an indication where our society is headed. At some point there wont be others money to live off of and the country comes crashing down under the mindset of people like you and Obama.

  24. 10:09,

    You might not know this but painter went to law school before the internet became big, sometime in the early 90s or so. His debt exploded because of defaults. His story is good for others to see. He can be a cautionary tale.

  25. if he went to school in the early 90s then hes an even bigger idiot then I assume.

    How many times did he take and fail the bar? Anyone?

    I wont tell you my own boo hoo story about going to a 4th tier crapper in the early 90s and graduating with high student debt for the time. I passed the bar.

    It took me over a year to find a legal job that initially paid less then what I made waiting tables. I did everything to pay down my debt and live frugally until I got it paid off. There was probably a better path but I was not going to just default or ignore it because seas did not part with big paying legal job offers.

    The problem with JD is that no matter what his loan total debt was/is, not being able to pass the bar prevented him from becoming a lawyer and making real money or atleast having a chance to make it. Its no doubt tougher for new lawyers now, but if he graduated 15-20 years ago, if he had passed the bar and practiced, a good PI case or two can pay down that loan quick. People go to law school and take loans because even if the odds are slim, that possibility of good money will lure many in to law school.

    I dont have sympathy for someone who cannot pass the bar, takes it as a badge of honor to default on loans to see how high he can get the balance to show thw world how bad the system is while he whines about finances.

    Its not an ideal thing to have on your back, but I would have tried all I could to keep that loan under control as back then, despite little or no internet, the loans amount were much smaller then today. Kids now who go despite all the info on scam blogs etc have no right to expect a bailout on student loans.

    As things get more expensive, the more information exists so make your decision and accept the risk. These schools just feed off desperation and too much desire for prestige.


    Leichter's March 28th piece provided a hyperlink to this ABA report. It is entitled “ABA-LSAC Official Guide to ABA-Approved Law Schools.” Head to page 40, of this document. This section discusses student debt.


    “Legal education is an investment in your future and is, in most cases, a serious financial investment as well. As with any investment, it is important to consider the pros and cons of entering into such a large expenditure of effort, time, and money. Particularly in uncertain financial times, a realistic assessment of why you are seeking a legal education and how you will pay for it is critical.

    It is not an exaggeration to say that the cost of a law school education could exceed $150,000. Tuition alone can range from a few thousand dollars to more than $50,000 a year, with housing, food, books, transportation, and personal expenses all adding to the total cost. Approximately 80 percent of law school students rely on education loans as their primary source of financial aid for law school. These loans must be paid back, and the more a student borrows, the longer the debt will have an impact on a student’s life after graduation.

    The single best source of information about financing a legal education is the financial aid office (or the website) of any LSAC-member law school. Visit for additional financial aid information and links to the law schools."

    Don’t most people seek a positive return, on their investments, ABA bitches?!?!

    Check out this info, under the subheading Planning Ahead: Repayment of Your Loan:

    “Your income after law school is an important factor in determining what constitutes manageable payments on your education loans. Although it may be difficult to predict what kind of job you will get (or want) after law school, or exactly what level of salary you will receive, it is important that you make some assessment of your goals for the purpose of sound debt management.

    In addition to assessing expected income, you must also create a realistic picture of how much you can afford to pay back on a monthly basis while maintaining the lifestyle that you desire. (The money you borrow will be paid out of your future earnings and may have a significant effect on that lifestyle.)”

    Too bad this 102-page report does not explain WHY law school tuition is so high. It also fails to point out that tuition rates have SKYROCKETED over the last 10-20 years - in an age where schools rely heavily on cost-effective measures, such as the internet and adjuncts teaching several law courses.

  27. Northwestern Law costs about $80K a year to attend. Add another $30K for loss of opportunity cost and we are talking $110K a year in terms of real money to attend law school. When you capitalize the interest that accrues while you are in school, we are easily looking at close to $250K in loans if you attend sans a scholarship. A quarter mil for a worthless degree? Shit man, a JD has more lure than recreational drugs. These law school deans have this shit figured out better than drup kingpins.

  28. Law school deans are lower than drug pushers. Plus, these assholes don't have to worry about jail time. They can just keep on scamming the students and the taxpayer.

  29. I for one would be willing to test out the theory that "extreme hardship" for BKY purposes exists where the student reasonably relied on bullshit employment stats. Once the lenders start taking it on the chin, then it's curtains for at least 75% of the law schools in this country.

  30. Tuitions are so terrifyingly high that even the relative "winners"-- those who land good law jobs-- still might not make enough to avoid having their lives ruined by their interest-accuring nondischargeable debt.

    You look at the job stats for the T20 and there are still some grads who score big law, prestigious clerkships, cushy gigs in state govt, ect. But big law seems to downsize with every significant market fluctuation. State government is in constant budget-cutting mode. Most judicial clerkships are not permanent. Most jobs, in fact, are not permanent. What is permanent is student debt.

    1. Job stats for the T20 are mostly bullshit - even Harvard at #2 got caught with 100 people they couldn't account for. At a lower T14, you need at least a 3.7, or maybe a 3.6 if you're gay or from the ghetto, in other words, 85% of T14 degrees are bullshit.

  31. Have you seen this? How colleges waste our ‘Investments’

    But many university administrators have other priorities. The University of California system has been raising tuitions and cutting departments. But, reports John Leo in the invaluable Minding the Campus blog, its San Diego campus found the money to create a new post of “vice chancellor for equity, diversity and inclusion.”

    “In recent years, study after study has found that a college education no longer does what it once did and should do,” the report concludes. “Students are being asked to pay considerably more and get considerably less.”

    That’s the sort of thing that happens when you pump money into an insular system and don’t hold its leaders accountable for results.

    This doesn’t just happen on the Left Coast. The University of North Carolina at Wilmington saved some money by lumping together two science departments and raised spending on its five diversity-multicultural offices.

    “In recent years, study after study has found that a college education no longer does what it once did and should do,” the report concludes. “Students are being asked to pay considerably more and get considerably less.”

    That’s the sort of thing that happens when you pump money into an insular system and don’t hold its leaders accountable for results.

    Millions of young Americans are living with the results. In a time of economic stagnation, the degrees they’ve earned haven’t equipped them with basic work skills, much less expert knowledge that can command a premium even in a sluggish market.

    They’re saddled with tens of thousands of dollars of student loan debt, which — darn it! — turns out not to be dischargeable in bankruptcy. They can get by on partial payments for a while, but interest keeps accumulating, to the point that Social Security checks may get dunned to pay for college.

    Glenn Reynolds, proprietor of and a law professor at the University of Tennessee, says we’re watching a higher education bubble that’s just about to pop. That’s what happens when you throw a lot of money at college and university administrators who don’t have much common sense.

  32. Even if you land biglaw, you'll likely be let go within 3-5 years. Don't have great connections? Don't have great sales skills, with which to attract big dollar clients?

    No. Well out on the street you go!

  33. What's the alternative? The nay-sayers come across as entitled children. Law school does not guarantee six figures. I think most students understand that. Most people will not attend an Ivy or T-14 school. Is that to say no one else should attend law school? This is elitist at its best. I guess the alternative will be for those few privileged people to become professionals and the rest of us going to State Schools and/or TTT or w/e you like to call them to go work in the fields. Just because it didn't work out for you does not mean you are the rule. Live and let live. This blog has become less about informing about the dangers of debt and law employment than a wholly moronic bashing on the legal profession from an outsider looking in.


    Visits: 13
    Unique ID: 2445232313188373679
    IP address:
    Locale: Hialeah, FL, USA / English
    Platform: Google Chrome 17.0 / Windows 7 / 1366x768

    Apr 6 2012 11:53am 5 actions 3m 24s
    Apr 6 2012 11:13am 2 actions 5m 23s

    To the piece of trash above, i.e. the whining pussy who posted today at 11:56 am,

    I am going to continue to kick the living piss out of the law school pigs, bitch. If that hurts your sensibilities, then try not to shave your vagina too closely next time, mental midget.

    These schools are consigning people to a lifetime of debt servitude. Apparently, you believe that this is not a big deal. This debt not only impacts the students and their immediate families, it also affects society. If these students and grads cannot afford to purchase home or start families, how will that affect the already-declining U.S. birth rate, cretin?!?! Also, home sales are a cornerstone of this consumer-based economy, moron.

    Companies and entire industries will then rely further on foreign, cheap labor. (I'm sure that you will be among those bitching and crying about the influx of immigrants, too.) If this is beyond your mental ability to comprehend, then you need to move onto lighter material. Try sticking to coloring books and Legos, you piece of garbage.

    By the way, bitch, PLENTY of sociologists, social commentators, comedians, news analysts, businessmen, "law professors" and other academics - outsiders of the legal "profession" - have been pointing out that the legal system is a joke. Don't forget this, borderline retard: law is a business, not a profession. Get that through your thick skull, waterhead!

    Look at this indictment leveled against the supposed "profession," written by a Yale law professor in 1939! It is entitled "Woe Unto You, Lawyers!" How do you like that, cockroach?!?!


    Check out this story about a woman and cancer patient who was able to discharge her student loans - due to TOTAL DISABILITY. She ended up going through additional hell, when she was not informed that she needed to report this to the IRS as Cancellation of Debt Income. The piece of human excrement from Hialeah, Florida will not be able to understand this piece, as the cockroach can barely read - or follow a basic argument.

    After I shoved a plunger up your corroded ass, make sure to "live and let live," dung beetle. You are dismissed.

  35. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  36. Everyone should handle trolls like that. That was some serious ownage! Wonder if the piece of shit comes back after that.

  37. What's the alternative to not getting fucked for life? Hmmm, lemme see. Well, you could work for a regular company and try to work your way up. You might have to kiss some ass along the way. but at least you will be making money and you won't take out $150K for a fucking law degree.

  38. This comment has been removed by the author.

  39. @April 5, 12:33AM

    Fuck You Asshole! Fuck YOU!

    Fuck You! Fuck YOU! FUUUUCK! YOU!!!!

    You piece of fucking SHIT!

    I COULD NOT PASS THAT FUCKING TEST and not anywhere near close.

    It is only offered twice a year, and a person can starve in that time.

    I was all begged borrowed up to as far as I could go, and was 10 pounds underweight with no fucking money coming in.

    You fucking suck and if you want to continue the conversation further come to my blog and tell the world your name you fucking coward.

    Anonymous fucking coward.


    It's probably dirt and I wish you all the bad luck you have wished on me.

    Evil bastard.

  40. Nice. I've seen nando get shit-ripping mad before but never Esq painter. This really was a good Friday.

  41. The law school parasites must be put to DEATH.

    Death or jailed. It is the ONLY solution. Do not give respect to criminals. They are nothing more than white collar fucking CRIMINALS.

    So smug. They think they cannot be touched. They say, "NO ONE WOULD DARE ATTACK ME!"

    But the time has come. Put these fucking baby boomer cowards in jail. They are the worst of the worst. The lowest of the low.

  42. In a just world (we don't live in one) these fuckers would be rotting in prison for their fraud. That won't happen. But you can try to fuck them financially just like they've done to so many students.

  43. I guess the fuck you comments are not cool, and I shouldn't have done it.

    But I won't delete it.

    But that is the way people really talk, especially after they've been ripped off.

    I remember coming out of anesthesia after sinus surgery and I heard an angry voice telling me to open my mouth because I had my teeth clamped on the tube that was down my throat.

    I opened my mouth all right, and cursed the Dr. out, and the Dr. cursed right back at me and did even better than me!

    Coming out of anesthesia as I say, and I might have tried to get up to punch the Dr. but I was strapped to the operating table.

    Anyway, I will try to watch my language in the future.

  44. To the guy who complains about students wanting a bailout,

    Clearly, you must be pissed about living in this country then - as the taxpayers have been forced to bail out the following industries: airlines, auto manufacturers, banks, financial services pigs, savings & loans schemes, etc.

    Here is a list for you to read, when you have a moment. Check out some of the major names of welfare recipients, i.e. Citigroup, Bank of America, Chrysler, Bear Stearns, Lockheed, Fannie Mae, et al.

    On a personal level, click on the link below - and you will see that long-time NFL player Warren Sapp recently filed for bankruptcy:

    "FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (AP) – Former NFL star Warren Sapp owes more than $6.7 million to creditors and back child support and alimony, according to a Chapter 7 bankruptcy filing in South Florida.

    Sapp's $6.45 million in assets includes 240 pairs of Jordan athletic shoes worth almost $6,500, a $2,250 watch and a lion skin rug worth $1,200. He also reported losing his 2002 Super Bowl ring with the Bucs and his 1991 national championship ring from the University of Miami.

    The court documents were filed in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Fort Lauderdale on March 30. first reported the filing. A phone message and e-mail left Saturday with his attorney, Chad Pugatch, were not immediately returned.

    Sapp's average monthly income is $115,881, according to the filings, and includes $45,000 for a final contract payment with Showtime, $48,000 for an appearance with CCA Sports and $18,675 as an advance for a book deal."

    Do YOU have a problem with someone who has $6.45 million in assets filing for Chapter 7, when this option is not available for student loans?!?! Hell, the bastard's MONTHLY INCOME greatly exceeds the annual salary of most recent law grads, in this nation.

  45. Nando, you compare apples to oranges. For the most part bailouts are bad and while there are always exceptions to everything, JD Painter getting bailed out is the equivalent of the tax payer being raped by a stimulous package(where is all that money other then in Obamas friends pocket)and Solyndra being given government funds to do nothing because they had no skills to make "green jobs" which is an oxy moron anyway used by liberals to make people feel bad about how they live day to day. Those folks all need to be arrested.

    JD did not pass the bar. He needs to shut the fuck up and crawl back in his hole. No one wishes him ill will but for him to speak out on a system that 20 years ago was difficult but manageable IF you could pass the Bar and atleast make a go of it. He could not even do that and he talks about the stress of it all. We all had that same stress. Law is a cutthroat profession and he could not cut it so he wants a refund. Under your theory lets just give loans to students, money for crappy business ideas, and let everyone out when they fail. I know the money is endless as long as there are successful people and companies to tax.

    I feel more sorry for recent law grad with these way too high tuition models who pass the Bar and cant get work despite your blog providing vital information yet these lemmings still go then someone like JD Painter.

    The poster boy for someone who thinks the law school system is a scam cant be someone who cant pass the bar and allowed a loan that was manageable by todays standards to just fester so he could use it to complain.

    The system about all these bailouts and bankruptcies is not perfect, but the legal profession is not the ideal bail out argument as there are many people that make quite a good living over the course of their life practicing. It is not for everyone but there is a reason law schools dont lack applicants and its all the successful lawyers out there making money that you will never make working retail or as a camp counselor.

  46. Quantitative goals that I think the scambloggers should have

    Within 5 years:

    1. <60000 LSATs administered per year, which would be the lowest in 25 years and represent a 50% decrease from this year's number
    2. Closure of 50% of the law schools operating
    3. Going to law school becoming something that draws amusement rather than admiration (social shaming)

  47. PLenty of people are no longer jumping at the the chance to go to law school. And many of these boys and girls have solid grades and LSAT scores. Good work, guys!

  48. @ all of the people hating on JD Painter-- he is exactly why student loan debt should be dischargeable.

    He's no different than someone who borrowed $750,000 for a McMansion from Countrywide.

    ... Plus... don't think for a minute that any of you braniacs aren't a car accident or a bad break away from his fate. For most of us with excessive student loans, there but for the Grace of God go all of us.

    Also, there are probably a thousand or more people just like him suffering in silence.

  49. "Also, there are probably a thousand or more people just like him suffering in silence."
    - Anon., April 7

    And those people should either start becoming student loan activists, or sell most of their stuff and flee the country. I've advised JDPainterguy to do the latter because I think he's suffered enough. However, the student debt bomb looks like it's right on the razor's edge of imploding, so he might be a free man in 2 or 5 years.

  50. The guy making $45K who bought a $750K house from Countrywide is another good example of how this piece of shit country runs on scamming others. People like to blame the homeowner, but they often don't call out the shitty realtors and shit-ass banks that are also respobsible for this mess.

    In many ways, the banks and realtors are more responsible since they knew better. But they saw a way to make a fast buck. Rip into those cocksuckers too. If you're gonna lay all the blame on the homeowners, then you need to get out more.

  51. The exasperating thing about the bank and auto bailouts is that they probably were necessary, but they were structured in a way to reward and protect the bankrupt corporations, the issuers of bad loans, and the holders of toxic securities-- not the actual workers and homeowners.

    If a student loan bailout comes (and it probably will in the aftermath of the next recession), my fear is that it will provide massive relief to the parasites who own toxic securities and default swaps based on the student loans, but minimal and very conditional relief to the actual citizens whose lives were ruined for the crime of wanting a higher education.

  52. Law school is a gamble that fucks over the students. As an externality, it fucks over the public too. The loans are backed by the federal government. Why should the public back this system? It's not like we need 44,000 new lawyers each year (including those who are broke or unemployed).

  53. I think the commenter that is down on me is the same one from Atlanta where the bar exam is easy compred to the NY, Mass. and California Bar Exams.

    I am not anyone's poster child and when did I ever say I am?

    I could not pass that test. No where near passing.

    Issue spotting was always a mystery to me, and I never was able to arrange a proper essay in response to a fact pattern. I was terrible at it.

    Have a look at my first year grades. I posted them on my blog.

    Yes I deferred my loans, because I never made enough money to handle the payments, and I was never able to land a job that paid enough money for me to handle the payments. The JD on my resume repelled non legal employers.

    Since 2000, I have never made more than 30K gross in one year.

    But when all is said and done, my main issue now is student loan debt, and the fact that there is no cap on the interest that keeps piling up.

    I am not alone. Many, many people have doubled, or tripled student loan debt now, and at some point one has to say enough is enough and that consumer bankruptcy protections should be restored.

    Or at the very least a settlement offered by the loan holder.

  54. Regardless of JDPainter's situation of paying/not paying his student loan, the total student loan balance including interest should have a maxiumum cap, and I don't see that change to student loans happening right now. Knowing what I know now there is no way I'm signing up for another round of $100K plus debt, and for those that do, wishing them the best of luck and perhaps some wisdom to sink in so that they don't decide to take the debt ridden path.

  55. Law school is stressful enough. Finding a job shouldn’t make it worse. I work with JD Match, a company striving to add some much needed sanity to the recruiting process. Using a sophisticated matching algorithm, they can help you be discovered by employers looking for what you have to offer. Visit their site to see how it works, sign up for a free membership, and get some control over the recruitment process.

  56. I would love it if student loan forgiveness applied to me. I am graduating in a year and I'm afraid of the debt. I currently don't have a job to pay the minimum payback amount.
    Student Loan Forgiveness Program


Web Analytics