Tuesday, April 17, 2012

Second Tier Bovine Excrement: University of Kansas School of Law


http://www.law.ku.edu/prospective/costsaid/tuitionfees/

Tuition: Kansas residents attending this school on a full-time basis, for 2011-2012, were charged $16,459.90 in tuition and fees. Out-of-state, full-time law students at the University of Kansas faced an amount of $28,648.60, in tuition and fees, for the 2011-2012 academic year.

Total Cost of Attendance: According to this same document, the school maintains that room and board, personal expenses, transportation costs and book will add another $17,218 to the tab. As such, the school estimates that Kansas residents, who enroll full-time at the law school, needed $33,677.90. Non-residents required $45,866.60, in total costs. However, keep in mind that the commode only considers nine-month living expenses.

Seeing that an actual law student will require twelve month living costs, we can determine a more accurate total COA figure of $39,049.90 for in-state, full-time law students. For non-resident, full-time law students, this figure would come out to $51,238.60. Who says that state schools are affordable?! 

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings/page+4

Ranking: At such rates, surely this school has one hell of a reputation in the legal and academic community, right?!?! Well…Pussy Bob Morse and the shills at US “News” & World Report rate the University of Kansas Sewer of Law as the 89th greatest, most remarkable and breathtaking law school, in the United States! In fact, it shares this distinct honor, with the following six breadwinners: DePaul, Hofstra, Indiana University-Indianapolis, Arkansas-Fayetteville, Louisville, and Nebraska

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2012/mar/13/kus-law-school-drops-again-national-rankings-while/

By the way, this turd has sunk further down the rankings, in the last couple of years. Check out this excerpt from Andy Hyland’s March 13, 2012 article, in the Lawrence Journal-World, entitled “KU’s law school drops again in national rankings, while 12 programs make top 10”:

“U.S. News and World Report released new rankings for graduate programs on Tuesday, and while Kansas University had 12 programs ranked in the top 10 among public universities, its School of Law, hampered by slumping employment numbers, dropped into to a tie for 89th overall.

The law school, which dropped 12 spots in 2011, dropped another 10 this year. Stephen Mazza, KU’s law dean, said a dip in employment numbers was to blame.” [Emphasis mine]

Yeah, sure the job market is solely to blame for the drop in rankings – and student debtor advocate Cryn Johannsen just ran her size 8 soles down my back!

http://www.law.ku.edu/careerservices/employmentstats/

Supposed Employment Placement and Starting Salary Figures: The school claims that, of those for whom employment status was known, 85 percent of the JD Class of 2010 was employed or enrolled in graduate school. For $ome rea$on, the toilet does not provide a more detailed breakdown of the numbers. Of those who were unemployed – presumably nine months after graduation – eight people were allegedly not seeking a job.

Notice that the cesspool published an overall median starting salary figure of $55,000. However, only 102 – of the 165 for whom employment status was known – bothered to furnish salary data to the school. Scroll down and you will see that 77 grads from this class entered private practice. Of this figure, four worked as desperate solos – while 15 were employed in firms of 2-10 attorneys. Furthermore, an additional 15 worked in firms of 11-25 attorneys. Were you planning on working in Biglaw, upon graduating from this stench pit?!

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/grad-debt-rankings/page+8

Average Law Student Indebtedness: USN&WR lists the average law student indebtedness - for those members of the University of Kansas JD Class of 2011 who incurred debt for law school - as $41,574. Fully 80 percent of this school’s 2011 class took on such toxic debt. While this figure is not atrocious, remember that this figure does not take undergraduate debt into account.

http://www.kansas.com/2010/11/23/1601926/2010-public-salary-database.html?appSession=771286681415847

Faculty and Administrator Salaries: Thanks to the Wichita Eagle, for providing a link to the state employee salary database. The eunuchs at the Kansas City Star failed to produce this listing. Let’s see how well the pigs are doing, in comparison to the students and recent grads. On page 2, you will notice that Dean Stephen Mazza made $250,000 in 2010.

On page 4 of this database, note that Rakesh Kumar Bhala raked in $199,417 – as Associate Dean for International and Comparative Law/Rice Distinguished Professor.  Also on this page, Michael Hoeflich “earned” $199,332 as something called the “John H. & John M. Kane Distinguished Professor of Law.”  On his faculty profile, listed under Representative Publications, you will see that this world-beater wrote an article entitled “Roman & Civil Law & the Development of Anglo-American Jurisprudence" – in 1997. Why isn’t this guy making bank, as a law firm partner?!?!

Conclusion: The University of Kansas School of Law is an overpriced public commode. While the school may feature a strong semi-pro men’s basketball team, do not expect a KU law degree to bolster your financial position. In the final analysis, family, political and business connections count for a hell of a lot more than “hard work” or determination.  If you have your heart set on being a lawyer, then you should realize that you will need to practice in Kansas or Missouri.  This is a second tier sewer, with a regional reputation.  DO NOT attend this school, if you expect to be an attorney in another area of the country.

45 comments:

  1. I'm sensing some sarcasm here.

    ReplyDelete
  2. What do you have agains this school? Did you go here and not get a job or something? Well, that's on you not the school.

    This school has a national reputation. People from all over have heard of this school. This guy's just mad. You can go here and find a job anywhere in the country. And a good job at that. This guy's all sour grapes.

    Rock chalk Jayhawk!

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    Replies
    1. Uhh..sorry but get out a map and draw a 100 mile radius around lawrence...there's your market.

      Delete
  3. Not only did Professor Hoeflich author that essential text for all courts and practitioners: "Translation and the Reception of Foreign Law in Antebellum American," but he also had a remarkable legal career as a practicing lawyer at Cravath that began in 1979 and lasted all the way to 1980. Yes, it was only after literally WEEKS of practice experience that he began his cushy 32-year gig as a law professor.

    http://www.law.ku.edu/faculty/faculty/hoeflich.shtml

    Clearly, the law students and taxpayers of Kansas should dig deep into their pockets, or borrow as much as they can, to pay this guy $200K per year, plus benefits, pension, and sabbaticals.

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  4. This school likely presents a difficult challenge for anyone wanting a legal job outside of Kansas or the Kansas City area. Any criticisms along this line seem to be fair game. And I think Nando's article does this well.

    But this is a law school that can "survive' in the coming nuclear meltdown of law schools. It "only" charges 17k for in-state students (who are the only non-wealthy students who should be attending). They presumably have a shot at attracting students when the melt-down occurs, and average law school tuition must decline to 40% of what it now is for the schools to obtain students with a pulse, i.e., those with LSAT's over 145 (and yes, it will get that bad). They likely have a far more management overhead than other schools, and again, have a shot at survival. Witness the previous school reviewed - Stetson - come 2018 - it is not going to exist as it now exists.

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  5. I posted a link to this blog post on the Kansas School of Law facebook page.

    Not less than 2 hours later, like clock work, the link to Nando's entry was removed.

    I wonder why? Why do they not want their students to see the criticisms facing their "institution of higher learning"?

    If the link is untrue, say so. Instead of just hiding the information like fucking criminal cowards.

    That's what these pathetic "law schools" are. Run by criminal, lying, stealing, cheating, parasites.

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  6. @ 12:48

    Hey man, it doesn't surprise me that a school would delete a link like this on their Facebook page. Think they want people seeing the school for what it is? Their livelihood depends on suckers buying into their bullshit stats. Taking it down just shows they can't debate someone who posts pictures of toilets on blogs.

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  7. Tour De France Analogy:

    Harvard and Yale are Yellow Jersey winners like Lance Armstrong and Greg Lemond.

    Schools like this are "Domestiques" and consistently finish around the middle of the pack of 200 or so riders in the race.

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    Replies
    1. pure genius jd..where did you come up with that comparison. You must have aced the SATs and the Bar exam.

      Delete
  8. Tuition's not bad and neither's the debt. Leave this school off your list.

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  9. JD Painter, your cycling analogy is all wrong. The TTT/TTTT trash heaps featured on this blog are more like the "Gruppetto" riders. Taking the cycling analogy a bit further, the law schools use of inflated employment stats is akin to a rider using banned substances such as EPO.

    E. Merckx

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  10. @ E. Merckx:

    I will take this up at the meeting of the next legislative hearing counsel administrative regulatory body where a lot on the topic will be said, and nothing will be done.

    But no time now, there is a Breakaway!

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  11. $17k is still too much. The average student will come out with $60k in dent from law school alone, plus living and misc. expenses. This is not taking into account any undergrad debt they likely carry.

    Coming from TTT trash heaps, they face the same problems of those coming from TTT's charging 50k, etc. A super-saturated job market, no entry-level jobs, and connected, established local competition with money to spend.

    17k or 50k. It's just a slower bleed.

    The graduates of this POS trash heap will be forced to take any underpaying job they can find while their loans accrue interest, IBR or no. They will be trapped on the Student Loan Merry-Go-Round working for the government 12 out of 12 mos of the year.

    Better not to play a completely stacked, rigged game, as JD Painter would say. A lot of you like to bitch at Painter, but he's not the only one. Pass a Bar exam or no, I thought that a law degree was so "versatile" that a graduate could find a decent-paying job nonetheless.

    Higher Ed. is a scam. Pure and simple. The connected in society always triumph over the unwashed masses and at their expense. IQ, quality of student, and the rest of the bullshit commonly spewed - especially "merit" - have absolutely nothing to do with it.

    Social mobility is dead on America. It's now another myth for people with child-like faith who probably also once believed in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. It's spread by the media and in schools to keep the masses flowing into and through the System and working hard. Their money and labor (and debt servitude) are wanted badly and needed to keep the Elites on top and keep everyone else in the mire. The connected know that success has everything to do with their social status and nothing to do with merit or hard work.

    Success comes from connections and grooming. The Horatio Alger bs, so ingrained in the public consciousness, is an Everyman Myth for suckers while the Elite laugh their asses off as they use and abuse the masses and stand on their backs for their success. The Myth is spread by the Elites themselves because its to their benefit. If the masses realized that the Emperor has no clothes, the Empire of Illusions that the connected and Elite live in would come crashing down.

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  12. Kansas was nice enough to post its employment statistics for prospective students to consider before applying. The class of 2010 stats look great! The 168 students have an 85% employment rate. Not bad for a terrible economy.

    http://www.law.ku.edu/careerservices/employmentstats/

    Then, if you scroll down and look at all of the statistics listed, the numbers don't look quite so good. Only 83/168 with "bar passage required" jobs reported salaries. That's less than 50%.

    Looking further, 77/168 graduates had jobs in private practice. 35 of these 77 had jobs in law firms with 1-10 attorneys. No way of telling how many of these 1-10 attorney firms are just a few desperate grads hanging out a shingle and hoping for the best. Its a good guess, though, that the 1-10 lawyer firms are not paying well.

    10.4% of the class of 2010 have jobs in "business." No way to know what "business" means, or whether the JD helped with those jobs. 9 of the students working in "business" gave salaries. The mean for the "business" salaries is $45,333.

    Since law schools like to play with employment stats and give their own version of what the stats mean, I am going to do the same for KU. Using the data provided, my standard for "employed" will be "jobs people went to law school for the purpose of getting that will probably justify the cost of attendance."

    Using my definition of employed, KU Law school has an employment rate of 44.6%. This calculation counts employed as graduates working in firms over 10 people, law clerks, public interest employees and government employees. This might be generous, because there is no way of knowing how many public interest and government employees are doing unpaid internships.

    Its nice that Kansas decided to show clearer employment statistics. They help to show what a bad idea law school is. Just think, kids, go to KU Law, and you have a 44% chance of getting a job that will make attendance worth your while!

    Kansas isn't alone in this. Many law schools are starting to release more detailed employment figures. They are ugly all over. Some TTT and TTTT schools have employment rates using my definition of employed of below 20%.

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  13. No no no!

    The class of 2010 had it great! 85% secured employment within 9 months of graduation with an average starting salary of 65k!

    Really! See? Law school is greattt!

    ReplyDelete
  14. I agree with TMoney's analysis, particularly his exclusion of the "law firm, 2-10" category from "employed." I note that Nando's fine summary contains a misprint--placing the number of 2-10s at 15. It is actually 31 (out of 74 total law firm jobs).

    I have argued that the "law firm, 2-10" is a scammy category, and an important clue as to the real employment prospects of graduates.

    It is possible that a smattering of lawyers in the 2-10 category are working for mom and dad's successful small firm or for some ten-lawyer firm with an established niche practice. However, the vast majority of 2-10s are probably glorified solos, who have pathetically hung out a shingle with a couple of other know-nothing recent grads, or grads who have volunteered in the office of an established lawyer in a desparate attempt to gain some marketable expertise in a practice area. These lawyers may be in "JD required" jobs for purposes of the survey, but they aren't making any money.

    Notably, if you look at T14 schools, such as Northwestern, the 2-10 lawyer category is in the single digits. However, lower ranked scammy schools, as Kansas apparently is, end up with substantial double-digit numbers of its law firm jobs in the 2-10 range.

    One ugly surprise is that Kansas only placed three graduates in judicial clerkships (and we do not even know whether ANY of these three clerkships are prestigious federal clerkships). Three! This is a terrible number. I would have expected the flagship school of Kansas to have a stranglehold on nearly all of the state's available appellate court clerkships. In fact, I would have expected Kansas grads to have an inside track on all available legal jobs in Kansas state government; however, only 22 grads obtained government jobs anywhere.

    Though I liked the survey's layout and historical data, it is still seriously flawed and deceptive. Kansas fails to provide any segmentation of long-term and short-term jobs, and does not state how many, if any, grads are in scammy "fellowship" arrangements, whereby the grad volunteers at a firm or agency, but gets a temporary stipend from the law school.

    Thus, among other things, we do not even know how many of the 19 grads working for firms of 100 or more are actually document reviewers.

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  15. 8:21: Concerning your analysis that "I would have expected Kansas grads to have an inside track on all available legal jobs in Kansas state government; however, only 22 grads obtained government jobs anywhere.":

    I am a currently employed attorney in the State of Kansas and I have done off and on job searching for government jobs for years. The sad fact of the matter is that Kansas grads probably DO have an inside track for beginning legal jobs in state government. But, there has hardly been any such jobs there. For example, the State's job website currently lists a total of 3 attorney job postings, only 1 of which is available to applicants without any experience.

    Based on my observations, my guess is that a majority of the 22 Kansas grads with government jobs are working as assistant county attorneys doing traffic court and juvenile cases.

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  16. At least they have a hilarious blog where 'inspirational' stories are told:
    http://kuschooloflaw.blogspot.com/

    And this is the most hilarious:
    http://kuschooloflaw.blogspot.com/2012/03/fathers-advice-still-rings-true-find.html

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  17. @April 17, 7:20PM

    Where did I come up with it?

    Floyd Landis told me.

    ReplyDelete
  18. If the school does have name recognition, it just can't make up for the lack of jobs in the area. I'm sure it's the best school in the state. And the tuition is not terrible if you're a Kansas resident. But who would knowingly choose to spend three years in law school just to end up in their old job?

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  19. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=168144

    On October 10, 2011, at 12:57 pm, Steven Freedman, an assistant dean for admissions at this commode, started a thread on TLS entitled "University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions." He used the handle "JayhawkLaw." Here is the text of the original post:

    "Hello TLS Community,

    My name is Steven Freedman and I started this September as the new Assistant Dean of Admissions for the University of Kansas School of Law in beautiful Lawrence, Kansas. I am here on your web site because TLS has become an increasingly important forum for prospective law students to share information about the law school admissions process. I think engaging in this conversation can only help law school candidates make better informed, smarter decisions about choosing a law school. So feel free to post your questions about KU Law here.

    Looking forward to hearing from you!

    Steven Freedman, J.D.
    Assistant Dean of Admissions
    University of Kansas School of Law

    p.s. If you have a question specific to your KU Law application, feel free to e-mail me at freedman@ku.edu. If you are interested in discussing topics unrelated to KU Law, please find a different TLS topic to post your comments.

    p.p.s. I will be checking this forum as my schedule permits. Please be patient if you do not see an immediate response."

    Here is Freedman’s contact info, as listed on the KU Law staff directory:

    http://www.law.ku.edu/about/staffdirectory/

    Steven Freedman
    Assistant Dean for Admissions
    785-864-9210
    freedman@ku.edu
    103 Green Hall

    Do you think that the school is getting desperate, for recruits?!?! Hell, the assistant dean for admissions is on Top Law Schools - in an attempt to attract more applicants!

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  20. By the way, TLS did confirm that Steven Freedman was the actual author, after he emailed the site administrator from his KU email address.

    On October 10, 2011 at 6:07 pm, Freedman followed up with this gem:

    "I was starting to run out of space, so I'll save 2014's question about our rankings drop for last. I guess there's a lot to say on this subject. When looking at the change in rankings from last year, the biggest culprit appears to be that our 2009 Kansas bar pass rate had a somewhat inexplicable one year drop to 79%. (You might wonder why I would point to 2009 numbers, but US News uses numbers two years prior to compile their rankings). In 2010, we had a 92% first-time pass rate. And this year we hit 90.1% in Kansas and 95% in Missouri! So we're feeling pretty good about our bar pass rates.

    Also, we want everyone to know about our top 50 ranking in the "other" U.S. News Rankings, one that we guess is even more important to prospective students. It's the U.S. New's "Law Firms Rank Schools" ranking. In this survey of recruiters from the country's top law firms, KU Law ranked fiftieth. Not too shabby if you ask me."

    In the end, these men and women are nothing more than salesmen. They need more people to apply and enroll, in order to ensure job security. Do you think - for one second - that these admissions "officers" give one damn about YOUR future?!?! They are simply preying on young people’s faith in the system, lack of experience and naivete.

    From Freedman, on December 30, 2011, at 12:36 pm:

    “Hello Jayhawk fans...

    Haven't visited Top Law Schools in a while, but thought today would be a good day to post. One question we get from a lot of prospective students is "If I go to KU, can I take that degree outside of Kansas and the Midwest?" In fact, I was kind of surprised how often that question came up. So I asked my colleague Arturo Thompson in the Career Services Office if he could look at the data to get an answer to that question.

    The answer is yes. Proof? In the last four years, our students have found employment in more than thirty states (34 plus D.C. to be exact). And the list of employers is pretty good too, which you can see by scrolling down to the bottom of our Career Services page (http://www.law.ku.edu/careerservices/employmentstats/) to look at our list of recent employers.

    Now that doesn't mean that finding a job at top firms in New York, D.C., Chicago or Phoenix is a walk in the park. But as many of you know, it's not a walk in the park wherever you go to school. But Jayhawk students are finding these jobs even in this tough economy. The common thread for these success stories is 1) they did well in law school, 2) they had a smart job search strategy, and 3) they put [i]a lot [i]of effort into their job search. Simply sending out resumes is not enough, these students found a way to get someone to pull their resume from the pile. Arturo and the Career Services Office will help you find those ways.

    Happy New Year!”

    You should check out this entire thread, to see desperation in action.

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  21. 'Yeah, sure the job market is solely to blame for the drop in rankings – and student debtor advocate Cryn Johannsen just put her ankles on my shoulders!'

    Nice play on words. I missed that the first time I read it.

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  22. Found this today. More proof that there's 100 suckers born every second. And that the Admin of JD Underground is a complete out-of-touch asshole:

    -----------------------------------------------

    http://jdunderground.com/all/thread.php?threadId=26420#post382935


    admin (Apr 17, 2012 - 10:18 am)

    This is a bad situation to be in. Five years ago my advice to you would be - finish what you started, a law degree is versatile, it can't hurt, it shows intellect, etc. But the truth is that a JD is good for only one thing - to practice law. For everything else, it is a negative. Not a neutral. Not a good to have. But a negative. Most non-legal employers will assume that you are only interested in practicing law and not take you seriously. So my knee-jerk reaction is say get out now. Don't get that on your resume.

    But.. you have plunked down all this money. If there is a way for you to finish, get a public interest job, and some how get the government to pay off your 100k in loans then that is something you ought to consider as well.

    I am sorry man.

    ---------------------------------------------

    Moron. 5 years ago? Try 30+.

    Just keep throwing that good money after bad. And, lol! Get a public interest job. Ya-huh! As if the bottom hasn't fallen out of that in the current economy and the T14 kids are competing for those spots now.

    Again, moron.

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  23. Law school is for suckers. With all the info out there now, you've to be a fucking idiot to go ahead and take the plunge. I don't care if the schools say 95% employment and $120K jobs. If you go now, it's on you.

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  24. Dear Nando:

    I am writing this comment to suggest that you retract the reference in your original post to "the eunuchs at the Kansas City Star."

    The Kansas City Star is a very fine newspaper that had the courage to run the human interest story: "U.S. attorney helps volunteer lawyers learn prosecutor's role."

    I can't find the article on the Kansas City Star website anymore, but it can be found at:

    http://law-us.blogspot.com/2012/02/us-attorney-helps-volunteer-lawyers.html


    The article reads in part:

    ""It's an abysmal economy," said Hershberger, who attended law school at the University of Kansas.

    Hershberger, 29, and two other recent law school grads are nearing the end of a yearlong program at the U.S. attorney's office in Kansas City in which they have worked as special assistant U.S. attorneys, but for no salary.

    With unemployment among lawyers hanging around 5 percent in Missouri, and underemployment among young lawyers at nearly 30 percent, U.S. Attorney Beth Phillips saw an opportunity to offer experience and training to recent graduates while maintaining her office's hiring freeze.

    "It's turned out to be a positive experience," Phillips said. "We've gotten excellent work, and they're getting excellent experience and training."

    When Phillips advertised the three uncompensated positions in December 2010, more than 30 lawyers applied."



    Back to my point, I for one am deeply humbled and inspired to know that I live in country where only four years of college and three years of law school can qualify one to try and beat out 30 other applicants for the privilege of working for free for the United States government. Calling the publishers of this inspiring human interest story "eunuchs" is deeply unfair.

    Furthermore, I think that while you are at it, you should apologize for your mockery of the Kansas law school career services office. The career services office has reason to be very proud of the fact that they were able to place one of their graduates in a one year unpaid internship with the United States government. In fact, if you go to the facebook page for the career services office and scroll down, you can find a (dead) link to this article. See:

    http://www.facebook.com/kulawcareers?sk=wall&filter=1

    ReplyDelete
  25. The links to the KU law admissions office starting a thread on TLS should have been on the main entry. Now that is an embarrassment. They're no better than drug pushers preying on addicts.

    ReplyDelete
  26. any profession that requires such extensive education at a high cost with significant financial risk, no matter how worthless it is in terms of preparing students to work in such profession, is simply a scam when you get out and are usually unable to get a job that justifies the cost.

    Remember scams are created to benefit certain people so just because some well connected kids get rich or enjoy perceived status because they become lawyers, does not make it ok. Listening to these law professors et al who benefit from these scams is akin to watching politicians on TV.

    That being said, just because a scam goes unchecked, does not mean the victims are blameless. With all this information out there, any kid who signs on for law school now does so at their own risk and deserves no sympathy because they work at Radio Shack after graduating. You take a risk albeit a bad one, because you dont like the alternatives of waiting tables or being a camp counselor.

    Until kids stop applying, these scams and the marketing of them will continue. It is harder in todays society to change your overall economic status so law school simply needs to be ignored by most of us.

    ReplyDelete
  27. ^titcr.

    As long as desperate fuckheads keep applying, these shit heaps will keep functioning.

    ReplyDelete
  28. The April 2012 issue of The Journal of the Kansas Bar Association brings us their regularly featured "Law Student's Corner" article, this month written by a Kansas 3L by the name of Emilia Carlson.

    Before enrolling at Kansas law school, Ms. Carlson had obtained a bachelor's degree from Northwestern and a graduate degree in arts management from the University of Florence, Italy.

    Ms. Carlson's article addresses with a chipper tone the problems she perceives with the idea of starting a solo law practice. A few excerpts of her words:


    "...A thorny job market can make starting your own business- whether a law firm or a cupcake bakery- seem attractive. You can be your own boss, set your own schedule, and keep the profits entirely to yourself. On closer look, though, solo practice may offer more risks than rewards for the new attorney..."

    "...When I entered law school, it was with the idea of starting my own legal translation firm. I had big dreams of joining my translation experience to a law degree, and doubling profits. At a legal-translation workshop at the University of Trent, Italy, this summer, those dreams were quickly resized. I found out I had overestimated the market size and time to break in even if I entered it. I expanded my job search and left the 'solo' dreams behind..."

    "...New grads who have not secured employment at graduation can take one of the routes mentioned above: get solid training through volunteer legal work, explore different types of law to see where you would actually fight to work, and in the meantime, put those marketable skills to good use in non-profit or corporate management, insurance, or any of the myriad fields requiring a working knowledge of the law. That way, we take ownership of our own training, groom ourselves for successful entry into a firm, without incurring the risks and liabilities associated with solo practice."

    ReplyDelete
  29. If you go to this type of school in the middle of nowhere expecting to land a job in other parts of the country, the jokes on you. It might be a nice school if you want to stay in WIchita or Kansas City. But how many of these students thoroughly research this decision.

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  30. No. The above is not TTTCR.

    More "blame the victim" mentality.

    The Madoff investors were, supposedly, financially savvy and yet they got taken. This was in no small part due to the failure of regulatory bodies, i.e. the SEC, who continually and on no less than 6 separate occasions after initial investigations, some ordered stopped by superiors at the agency, gave him a pass. People, I'm sure, relied on that and on his "good name".

    Legal education has no such oversight. The ABA is a joke. Essentially, we allow the thieves to police themselves.

    When you are allowed with no consequences to keep printing glossy brochures about your school and salary expectations, false and misleading employment statistics (amazing how every school out there has a 95.5% employment rate 9 mos. after graduation) and misrepresenting the true picture of the legal market, both locally and nationwide and the "opportunities" afforded by the school, of which most of the choice ones really go to the connected kids, you are committing fraud. It's that simple.

    You are enticing people who are desperate, not necessarily to become lawyers, but to use law as a vehicle to improve their economic class and who, compared to the Madoff investors are young, naive and unsophisticated, into parting with money they don't even have in the form of nondischargeable student loans - the absolute worst form of debt.

    The schools portray a legal education as precisely this vehicle, ceaselessly.

    --------------------------------------------

    Anonymous Apr 18, 2012 08:14 PM

    The links to the KU law admissions office starting a thread on TLS should have been on the main entry. Now that is an embarrassment. They're no better than drug pushers preying on addicts.

    --------------------------------------------

    TITCR.

    These people are jonesing, not necessarily to be a lawyer, but for a better life and to avoid flipping burgers or working in menial repetitive jobs. The schools know this and they push the image of a legal education and of the field of law as a means to achieve that goal.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Hey! Someone at Yale University taking a look at my blog tonight.

    Cool!

    ReplyDelete
  32. Why would such a school be reduced to having an assistant dean for admissions trolling on TLS, for applicants?!?!

    http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/u_of_kansas_law_school_applications_plummet_almost_23_percent/

    On June 7, 2011, Martha Neil of the ABA Journal reported on KU’s drop in the number of law school applications. The story was entitled “Kansas U Law School Applications Plummet Almost 23 Percent.” Here is the text of that entry:

    “Updated: A predicted drop of as much as 20 percent in law school applications to Kansas University this year has exceeded expectations.

    Applications have plummeted nearly 23 percent, reports the Lawrence Journal World.

    “This trend of double-digit drops in applications, nearly every school in the country is experiencing this,” notes Stephen Mazza, dean of KU’s law school. Early this year, the national average was 12 to 13 percent, he says, but the reduction in applications has probably gotten even bigger since then.”

    The commode anticipated a 20% drop in the number of applications, and the decrease was actually greater than this estimate. How do you spell desperation?!

    http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2011/jun/07/kansas-university-law-school-enrollment-drops-23-p/

    Check out this link to the June 7, 2011 article from Andy Hyland, entitled “Kansas University Law School applications drop 23 percent” – which appeared in the Lawrence Journal-World. Here is an excerpt:

    “As Kansas University’s School of Law deals with a national slump in the legal job market, admission applications to the school have fallen sharply.

    And KU students and recent graduates are expanding their job searches.

    This year, the school received about 850 applications, which is down from about 1,100 the year before, a nearly 23-percent drop.

    “This trend of double-digit drops in applications, nearly every school in the country is experiencing this,” said Stephen Mazza, dean of KU’s law school.

    KU’s drop-off is still well above the national average, which was around 12 percent to 13 percent in February, but has probably increased since then, Mazza said.
    “What has happened is the game has gotten much more competitive for getting applications and retaining students,” he said.”

    Of course, the $elf-intere$ted academic is stating this, on the record. In the main entry, you will note that Stephen Mazza “earned” $250,000 in 2010. By the way, Ass-Clown Mazza: this means that students are starting to understand the risks inherent in attaining a “legal education” – even at an “affordable” toilet such as the University of Kansas Sewer of Law.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Big whoop. Applications are falling everywhere. It's nice to see, but a lot of law skools are seeeing a drop in applications.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Nando...I would love to see you rip apart National Jurist and my alma mater University of Tulsa for this piece of garbage:

    http://www.utulsa.edu/academics/colleges/college-of-law/About%20the%20College%20of%20Law/News%20Events%20and%20Multimedia/News/2012/April/TU%20Law%20Receives%20High%20Score%20in%20Transparency.aspx

    Apparently SIX LAW SCHOOLS in the nation get an astounding A+ for "employment transparency."

    WTF????? According to University of Tulsa's College of Law website: "Employment nine months after graduation is 92.4% for the class of 2010 (defined as graduates in December 2009, May 2010 & August 2010)."

    National Jurist is a P.O.S. which is basically an advertisement for several TTTs and TTTTs.

    I cannot believe schools are actually bragging about getting an A+. I graduated with several people who have six figure debt and are NOT working as lawyers.

    I know you featured Tulsa before...however the fact that schools are now claiming they are transparent is bullshit.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Why would anyone go into debt to attend law school these days? This profession sucks. Even garbage ranked law schools can have a total cost of attendance that is 80K per year if you include books, room, and board, etc.

    Many people will be trapped in the post law school purgatory, where they can't find a job or they get a crap paying job, and their debt just keeps growing. Law faculty suck. Law schools suck. The ABA sucks. US News sucks.

    This has been a public service announcement from someone that aced the LSAT and went to a top twenty law school. DON'T GO!

    ReplyDelete
  36. I got some good news to report. My nephew scored a 168 on the lsat. He decided not to go to law school. He makes about $60K and he has chances for advancement at his company.

    He knows he has a better chance to remain where he is at. Rather than take on a bunch of debt, and take a huge risk of unemployment. His girlfriend actually influenced his decision not to go. You have done good work in getting this message out there.

    ReplyDelete
  37. http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/04/21/3189776/nc-law-school-graduates-face-tough.html

    Nando,
    What are your thoughts on the above analyis that the job market is getting better? Seems like the truth is still not being told.

    ReplyDelete
  38. KU Law's raw tuition is extremely reasonable compared to the vast majority of state schools, and certainly compared to almost any private school. Living expenses are variable, and the law school isn't a landlord, so it doesn't make sense to lump the cost of living in with tuition. Plus, the law school gives out a ton of scholarships that include stipends for living expenses, which isn't always reflected in the numbers. As with any law school, you get out of it what you put into it. High-achieving students who make an effort to network and seek out internship opportunities have been able to get jobs around the country, although obviously there is a heavy concentration of grads in the KC/Topeka area. The only reason that law grads are whining about the job market is because 20 years ago any schlub who slept through their classes and barely earned their diploma could get a cushy law job at a high starting salary. The more competitive market means that some of the losers are finally getting weeded out of the profession, which I don't see as a bad thing.

    ReplyDelete
  39. To the douchebag who posted above, i.e. April 24, 2012 7:59 am,

    http://ip-whois-lookup.com/lookup.php?ip=129.237.233.63

    Your words came across as someone allied with the school. Are you a faculty or staff member, of this dung pit?!

    NetRange: 129.237.0.0 - 129.237.255.255
    CIDR: 129.237.0.0/16
    OriginAS: AS2496
    NetName: JAYHAWKNET
    NetHandle: NET-129-237-0-0-1
    Parent: NET-129-0-0-0-0
    NetType: Direct Assignment
    RegDate: 1988-03-21
    Updated: 2010-05-04
    Ref: http://whois.arin.net/rest/net/NET-129-237-0-0-1

    OrgName: University of Kansas
    OrgId: UNIVER-70
    Address: 1 University of Kansas
    City: Lawrence
    StateProv: KS
    PostalCode: 66045
    Country: US
    RegDate: 1988-03-21
    Updated: 2011-08-04
    Ref: http://whois.arin.net/rest/org/UNIVER-70

    Apparently, you decided to wait one whole week before responding to the main entry on your second tier sewer. Grow some balls, and use your name the next time you defend this cesspool.

    "Living expenses are variable, and the law school isn't a landlord, so it doesn't make sense to lump the cost of living in with tuition."

    Guess what, mental midget? Law students will be required to pay for room and board, transportation and miscellaneous costs. The schools recognize this situation - and many provide some sort of estimate of these expenses. In fact, KU Law furnished a total cost of attendance - in the link below.

    http://www.law.ku.edu/prospective/costsaid/tuitionfees/

    Have fun selling insurance or serving beer to bar patrons, loser.

    Visits: 6
    Unique ID: 4091698803597050007
    IP address: 129.237.233.47
    Locale: Lawrence, KS, USA / English
    Platform: Internet Explorer 8.0 / Windows XP / 1152x720

    Visits by this user in the last 7 days

    Apr 24 2012 10:14am 129.237.233.47 1 action 10s google.com third tier reality kansas
    Apr 24 2012 7:47am 129.237.233.47 2 actions 3m 26s google.com third tier reality kansas
    Apr 19 2012 7:05am 129.237.233.47 3 actions 7m 1s google.com third tier reality

    ReplyDelete
  40. Wow, Nando, you know how to use a computer, major gratz. I'm not faculty or staff, I'm a current student here at KU. I made a few objective points about your article, and yet you could only point to one that you disliked. Everyone has living expenses, dude, and we're all responsible for our own at every point in our lives. Just because you still live in Mommy's basement doesn't mean the rest of us don't expect to pay our way. And like I said, KU does offer nice living stipends with many of their scholarship packages, if you're bright enough to earn one - which you probably wouldn't be.

    ReplyDelete
  41. To the waterhead above,

    I have not lived with my parents, since I turned 18, bitch. You did not make any objective points about the entry, moron. You were reacting, because your feelings were hurt that someone called this school a second tier sewer. (Check the USN&WR rankings, cockroach.)

    By the way, cretin: I am a homeowner, and have been married for a while now. You are not there yet, child. Good luck paying back all your loans, you piece of trash.

    Lastly, learn how to speak and write. You are (allegedly) a college graduate. Communication skills *might* come in handy, when you are applying for jobs, ass-clown. Hell, those skills come in handy for your mother, and she only interacts with her male customers for about 30 minutes each.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Law student, eh? Started thinking about that future job yet? May I make a suggestion? Check out JD Match in between the papers and exams. I work with JD Match and it’s a great step for any law student looking for an AmLaw firm job and a little weight off their shoulders. http://bit.ly/Iaa3cs

    ReplyDelete
  43. I wen tto this school, graduating in the top 10%, law review, and have little in the way of job prospects. I've seen others that have done well here face the same bleak reality.

    ReplyDelete

 
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