Monday, May 7, 2012

Open Letter to the Graduating JD Class of 2012


Some Background
 
This weekend, roughly 45,000 men and women will receive their JD. Many of them will wear a stupid-ass cap and gown, at the commencement ceremony. But these dresses feature ugly purple stripes on the arms and chest, plus a hideous purple hood! As if graduating without decent job prospects wasn’t bad enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3wyBNYwgnQ&feature=youtu.be&t=36m10s

Last year, an “educator” named Sara Stadler, daughter of former U.S. Solicitor General James Lee Rankin, told the 2011 graduating law class at Emory University to “Get over it!” The pig also lectured Emory students on not being greedy. Yes, a “law professor” - i.e. well-paid swine who produces less work than a typical housecat - had the nerve to go after young people who went into deep debt in order to help pay her salary. It will be interesting to see if any law school cockroaches do so at a commencement, this weekend.

The Job Market

http://www.nalp.org/uploads/NationalSummaryChartforSchools2010.pdf

As you can see from this NALP report, for the Class of 2010, there were 44,258 law grads competing for 28,167 jobs, where bar passage was required. Not all of those positions were for traditional attorney openings. Head to the bottom of page 2, and look at the figures under Job Characteristics by Employer Type. Fully 26.9% of all jobs reported were short-term and part-time jobs comprised 10.9 percent of the total.  What a healthy job market, huh?!

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2012/04/aba-releases-employment-data-for-class.html

On April 17, 2012, Paul Campos reported on the ABA Section on “Legal Education” publishing its placement summary data. The piece was entitled “ABA releases employment data for the Class of 2010.” Here is a telling excerpt:

“You can look up schools individually, or download the whole report in the form of a spreadsheet. Probably the most interesting new piece of information made available by the report is data on how many 2010 graduates were in law-school funded jobs nine months after graduation, and were counted as "employed" for the purposes of schools' nine-month employment rates. Such positions made up 4.81% of all jobs law schools reported their graduates held nine months after graduation, and not counting them for employment purposes drops the overall nine month employment rate for 2010 grads from 84.5% to 80.4% (Based on what I've seen I expect the number of 2011 graduates in these positions to be quite a bit higher. For example Cornell, which has released its class of 2011 numbers, went from having 6 to 26 graduates in such positions nine months after graduation). 

Note that this data does not represent how many otherwise unemployed graduates are being put in law school-funded positions: it only represents how many are in such positions nine months after graduation. The most striking illustration of this distinction is provided by the University of Michigan, which is listed as having seven 2010 graduates in law-school funded positions in February 2011, but which on its web site states that 61 graduates took such positions at some point after graduation.” [Emphasis mine]

Scroll down on the entry, and you will see a lengthy list of law schools that have each placed at least ten graduates in school-funded positions. Look at some of the institutions on that directory. Again, keep in mind that the figures below pertain to the JD Class of 2010. (Do you honestly think that the job market has improved since that time?!)

For instance, 14th-ranked Georgetown University Law Cesspool hired 18 students, but only three in long-term positions. Fordham Law School, the 29th-best commode in the U.S., put 73 students on the payroll. However, a mere three grads are beyond short term. Furthermore, 22nd-rated Notre Dame Law School placed 25 grads in school-funded positions; only two of these hires were continual employment. University of Virginia Law School hired 40 students, and only one, single, solitary JD was hired for long-term work. This is from the supposed SEVENTH-RANKED law school, in the nation!

Conclusion: In the last analysis, on some level, you were tricked by the lies of the law school industry cockroaches. They are paid up front, in full. You will be the one left holding the big-ass bag of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt. The schools DO NOT GIVE ONE DAMN about your outcome. At least, fewer people are applying to law school. In fact, those with higher LSAT scores are more likely to eschew the three year program. However, this is too late for you.  By the way, if you report to your school that you are delivering pizzas, tending bar or selling insurance - within nine months of graduation - the rats will list you as “employed” for the purpose of their placement rates. Because a law degree is required for those types of jobs, right?!?! Keep that in mind when you decide whether to respond to your toilet’s graduate survey, before the February 2013 deadline.

71 comments:

  1. AtheistATLLawyerMay 7, 2012 at 7:33 AM

    Feel sorry for all the kids who got scammed by these criminals. RIP class of 2012.

    Soon you'll realize just how truly fucked you are. "Soon". AKA when the 2013 February deadline rolls around and you'll still a bartender, you'll know you got scammed.

    Don't worry. I realized I got scammed as I was being sworn in as a "real lawyer".

    It suddenly donned on me, I was now a "real lawyer" and now I was real fucked.

    Enjoy the debt. Your "professors" certainly did.

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  3. ^^^^ Typos

    Speaking of Stadler and the Emory University Graduation last year, I will warn people to NOT watch this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3bQJV2lx-s&feature=g-upl

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  4. Its like the financial hunger games, only with baby lawyers! Katniss!!!

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  5. I graduated almost six years ago and I'm still telling people not to go to law school. But some people are gluttons for punishment.

    I've helped talk a few friends out of going. When you care about someone you don't want to see them get fucked for life. But one cousin recently paid his seat deposit. He'll be starting at a tier 2 in the fall.

    I showed him my monthly student loan bills and a couple of pay stubs. But it was to no avail. And I went to a better school than he's going to. I even had an okay scholarship. Looking back, I still paid too much.

    I was top 25% (okay no big deal but it's better than 75% of the class did) and all I got was a six month unpaid position at legal aid. Yep. But this cousin of mine, boy, he's gonna just tear the shit out of law school. That's what he thinks, anyway. Says I didn't try hard enough.

    I still haven't decided if I'm going to pepper him with questions if I see him at Thanksgiving dinner.

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  6. To 8:11

    It's more like a mother gator that works to get her newborns to the safety of the ocean before a large male gators or seagulls snatch 'em up. Except for the caring, nurturing part, that is.

    Okay, so it's more like the schools are a bunch of crack whores that dump their newborn babies in trash bins.

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  7. I felt bad for the Class of 2009. I felt sad for the Class of 2010. I felt somewhat terrible for the Class of 2012. However, for the Class of 2012, I feel nothing. They had the benefit of knowing the effects of the 2008 crash. They had access to articles written about the law school scam and even had access to blogs such as Big Debt, Small Law and Third Tier Reality. Hell, even Above the Law was writing about the losing proposition of law school since late 2008. Most member of the Class of 2012 threw caution to the wind, disregarded the sage advice of older practitioners and decided to take the plunge. As far as I am concerned, no life boat or jacket should be thrown on the Class of 2012. Let them sink and drown in debt. These are the same kids who were saying on TLS in 2009 that they would beat the odds.

    For the Class of 2015 I offer this advice. Go to TLS. Notice how people's enthusiam for law school dies three weeks into the first semester (fewer postings). I actually read a post from someone who came back after he graduated and passed the bar. He stated that initially he was pro-law school when he started his TLS profile. He came back to warn people about law school but his post was taken down (a surprise move from a website that makes money from the law school scam). There are practically no legal jobs out there and it is almost impossible to land a job that will pay your loans, let alone live a comforable lifestyle. You are better off becoming a landscaper or sanitation worker.

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  8. 12:42:

    I agree with the gist of your posting but not entirely. I think you are being rough on the 2012 class. I have practiced for a long time, I read many law-related articles, and I have struggled with my debt as well as a flooded profession. On that note, I never heard of the Scambloggers until early 2011. The information was out there but I did not know where to look or if it existed. It was not until Segal's NY Times article that I even knew Scambloggers existed. It was the links in that article that brought me to TTR, Subprime JD, and all the other Scambloggers.

    I guess what I am trying to tell you is that what we see as blatantly obvious may not have been that obvious to those who enrolled in LS anytime before the beginning of last year. Many of the Scambloggers have been around for a long time but they did not receive the heightened publicity until Segal's article. If I were you, I would feel sorry for any person that enters law school and graduates with high debt. I think it is a travesty to see what happens to people when they realize their hopes and dreams have been dashed before their very eyes. Even the naive and stubborn ones deserve some sympathy. Don't have these answers.

    I do believe that transparency is important but it is not the end-all, be-all. People are gonna enroll regardless of the stats for their various reasons. The real criminals are the law schools and the shills who support them. Don't forget, the graduates have their role in the matter but the real problem lies with the structure, mode, application, and financing f this crappy profession.

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    1. I agreed with you, you wrote----The real criminals are the law schools and the shills who support them. Don't forget, the graduates have their role in the matter but the real problem lies with the structure, mode, application, and financing f this crappy profession.

      I agreed that one had posted about the law scam, it said--ABA/ STATE COURT set the rule on JD grads(no license), can not give legal advice/ bring client to the court.

      1>The rule undermined JD grads abilities , it meant that--law school and law profs are incompetent.
      2>ABA/STATE COURT RULE is VIOLATED FIRST AMENDMENT --US CONSTITUTION.
      3>ABA/STATE COURT ABETTING LICENSED ATTORNEY SCAMS on the one need legal helps,....freely.
      4>ABA/STATE COURT ruled that rule is lunatic.

      WE NEED TO REVISE THAT RULE.

      Delete
  9. It is the best of times. It is the worst of times.

    Me: debt slave. Made the mistake of going to law school. Age 36. Now live paycheck to paycheck.

    My brother: HS diploma. No student debt. Hot redneck wife. (From what he tells me, she blows him left and right.) She stays home with the kids. He makes sure she has money for her the necessities plus some extra for her monthly pedicures and hair appointments. She works out religiously. Three kids and you wouldn't guess it. He makes about $80K after taxes and owns a nice house. They take a couple of sweet vacations every year.

    One time, they let me tag along when they went to the Bahamas. I told him to let me pay him back. That was 3 years ago. I can't pay him back. He and his wife are so nice they aren't even upset that I couldn't pay for my trip.

    Kids, do not make the mistake I made. I don't come on here very often because the webpage makes me sad. And it's posting the cold truth. Get those images of success out of your heads. When you're representing human slime with not a nickle to their names you'll see how things are.

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    Replies
    1. Your brother tells you about the BJs his wife gives him? TMI, dude.

      Agree with the rest of the post.

      Delete
  10. It should be noted that there are a number of layers to the overall scam.

    The gateway drug to debt slavery is the law school.

    After the initial 3 year period, and once the law school gets done with you, and with no skin in the game or risk whatsoever, you will enter the second phase.

    Now you are unemployed and will soon be underemployed so as to eat and survive, and you will have to beg for more time for repayment and deal with the predatory lenders, who don't care if you cannot pay your loan.

    The predatory lenders will pile more debt on top of your existing debt, because that is the way Student Loan debtors are dealt with in the United States of America.

    Your life will be wasted and over.

    The shell on this extremely hard nut is Congress, who won't budge on restoring Consumer Bankruptcy protections for student loans.

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  11. http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2010/10/a_case_of_supply_v_demand.html

    Back on October 27, 2010, Slate ran a feature article, by reporter Annie Lowry, entitled "A Case of Supply v. Demand: Law schools are manufacturing more lawyers than America needs, and law students aren't happy about it." Here is an excerpt:

    "Others have taken, perhaps inevitably, to the courts. Kenneth Desornes, for instance, named his law school in his bankruptcy filing. He asks the school to "[a]dmit that your business knew or should have known that Plaintiff would be in no position to repay those loans."

    The students might be litigious—no surprise there—and overwrought. But they've got a point. The demand for lawyers has fallen off a cliff, both due to the short-term crisis of the recession and long-term changes to the industry, and is only starting to rebound. The lawyers that do have jobs are making less than they used to. At the same time, universities seeking revenue have tacked on law schools, minting more lawyers every year.

    That has caused some concern among lawyers who think the accrediting organization, the American Bar Association, is doing the profession a disservice by approving so many new schools. (Contrast that with medical schools. They come with much higher startup costs and tend not to be money-makers. Relatively few students get medical degrees every year, and demand far outstrips supply.)"

    The article continued:

    “The big firms that make up about 28 percent of recent grads' employment slashed their associate programs in 2009 and 2010, rescinding offers to thousands and deferring the start dates of thousands more. Worse, the profession as a whole shrunk: The number of people employed in legal services hit an all-time high of 1.196 million in June 2007. It currently stands at 1.103 million. That means the number of law jobs has dwindled by about 7.8 percent. In comparison, the total number of jobs has fallen about 5.4 percent over the same period.

    At the same time, the law schools—the supply side of the equation—have not stopped growing. Law schools awarded 43,588 J.D.s last year, up 11.5 percent since 2000, though there was technically negative demand for lawyers. And the American Bar Association's list of approved law schools now numbers 200, an increase of 9 percent in the last decade. Those newer law schools have a much shakier track record of helping new lawyers get work, but they don't necessarily cost less than their older, more established counterparts.”

    Could you imagine the ADA approving more dental schools than what is necessary? Try to picture the AMA accrediting several more medical schools, for the sake of lining the pockets of "profe$$or$" and staff. Unlike the morally-bankrupt American Bar Association, those organizations actually try to protect the investment of their future practitioners' time, energy and money.

    The ABA pigs KNOW that automation - and outsourcing of legal services - has scaled back the need to hire attorneys. Yet, they continue to enroll too many students – and award far more JDs than necessary. What a pillar of “ethics,” huh?!?!

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  12. Nando: Here's ANOTHER followup on Jack Whittington who railed against scambloggers, and Nando in particular, on several occasions while attending Tulsa law school.

    After failing the July 2012 Texas bar exam, Jack wrote a post at Solo Practice University asserting that this was not a failure but rather "success delayed". Jack and his wife both graduated from Tulsa law after transferring from Cooley. Jack insisted that he had never failed at anything in his life.

    Last Wednesday, Jack tweeted that he was looking forward to the February 2012 Texas bar exam results being released on Friday, May 4, 2012.

    I'm not sure why he hasn't tweeted since then but on 5/4/2012 Texas posted a list of those who passed the Feb 2012 bar exam and Jack Whittington's name is not on it. It does not appear that his wife passed either.

    Here's the bar link and the solo practice link:

    http://www.ble.state.tx.us/Results/pass_0212.htm

    http://solopracticeuniversity.com/2011/11/11/its-not-failure-its-just-success-delayed/

    Is it possible that both of them failed for the second time? Good grief.

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  13. Ahh good ole Jack Whittington. I remember him calling the scambloggers losers and how he was going to set the legal sports world on fire by pulling his bootstraps. What will he title his next article on SoloPracticeUniversity? Third Time's the Charm?

    Jack sort of reminds me of the typical 0L. No clue, just hope and false bravado. I bet if Jack had a chance to go back in time, he would have decided not to go to law school. I remember a poster gave him advice about not to get married to another debt soaked student. At this point, that marriage has a better chance of dissolving before Jack passes the Texas bar exam, which is not that difficult compared to California or New York.

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  14. Who the fuck is Jack Whittington. Is he any relation to Jack Skellington?

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  15. The Republicans are claiming that Elizabeth Warren committed academic fraud to advance her career. Aren't the law school deans doing the same thing? They are misrepresenting placement figures, student/faculty ratios, merit scholarships, etc. to advance their careers by making their law schools move up in US News.

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  16. I agree with an earlier Anonymous poster, I just feel bad for any law graduating class. Their plot line is well known--its like seeing the Titanic movie where we know going in what is going to happen. The only mystery is knowing which ones of the graduating law classes will figuratively get to wear the life preserves, which ones will get to have a boat take them to safety, and those who will go down with the ship (likely such graduates are holding a lot of the law debt with no law job to help pay it down).

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  17. Thanks for the update on Jack Whittington. I remember that douche's article in response to David Seagal's NYTimes article which exposed law school as a scam. Mr. Whittington insisted that Seagal was wrong and that he was fooled by the subject of the article, a Thomas Jefferson law school alum named Wallington. I remember Whittington called Wallington a loser in a condescending way. Whittington thought himself to be the better person by having attended third tier tulsa over fourth tier thomas jefferson. It was quite comical. Well at least Wallington was able to pass the bar exam and move onto the doc review circuit as a clicking monkey. What is Whittington doing now? Is he still working at the car dealership selling used clunkers? Has he reported to Tulsa that he is employed so they can use his car salesman position over at Tulsa to lure more suckers into the scam? Success delayed Jack? More like success passed you over.

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  18. @8:35PM

    For some reason, the only scene that I can remember from the Titanic movie is the one in which Kate Winslett had her top off.

    That and the other scene where a guy falls off the ship and hits the propeller.

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  19. I just found the interview where this Whittington guy poked fun at Michael Wallerstein. Hey Jack(ass). At least Wallerstein passed the bar exam (looks like in New York). And Whittington can't even pass the TX bar exam on his second try. What a douche.

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  20. @9:29,

    I would love to see a WHERE ARE THEY NOW? of all the special snowflakes who flamed Nando and other scambloggers over the past few years. Whittington and the "30something Law Student" (who IIRC had not even been admitted to law school yet) come quickly to mind, but I'm sure there are many others who, like Happy at the end of Death of a Salesman, were convinced that they were "gonna beat this racket!" LOL!!!

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  21. @8:16 am,

    Thank you for that comment. There are PLENTY of cockroaches on JDU on other forums who are now eating their words. Hell, now tenured “law professors” are exposing the law school cartel. Notice that even TLS and ATL are filled with cautious and raging warnings about this filthy industry.

    Blogs such as Big Debt, Small Law, Tom the Temp and Exposing the Law School Scam really paved the way, for this information to spread to the lemmings and the general public. I acknowledge their important role. Unlike two-headed bitch/sellout Kimber Russell, these authors did not seek shameless self-promotion. They merely wanted to educate their readers – and they often did so in entertaining and amusing fashion. They had both style and substance. After all, it is not too much to ask for both. I hope that this site accomplishes this goal, as well.

    http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/SSRN-id1497044.pdf

    On October 29, 2009 Vanderbilt University law professor Herwig Schlunk published a draft of his economic paper “Mamas Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up to Be…Lawyers.” In this piece, the author asks the question, “Is law school a good investment?” Look at his conclusion:

    "How does the current state of the market for entry-level law school graduates affect the analysis? It does so in three ways, I think. First, it means that the expected immediate pay-off of a law degree earned today may be less than was anticipated; currently, not even a Harvard graduate is guaranteed that he will get, much less be able to keep, a Biglaw job. Second, it means that the incremental income stream from a law degree is actually more risky than recent law school attendees have probably been led to believe. And this, in turn, means that the appropriate discount rate is surely higher than the one such attendees have implicitly been using.

    But there is a third effect as well, and it may be the most important of all. There is no reason to believe that the currently-experienced changes in the legal market for freshly-minted law school graduates are temporary; indeed, some legal scholars think they may well be permanent. If so, then it is not just the current crop of Hot Prospects, but all future crops as well, who will need to ratchet down their expectations not only with respect to first-year compensation, but also with respect to job security and chances for partnership. And that could easily tip the balance with respect to the investment decision from somewhat positive to decidedly negative."

    http://law.vanderbilt.edu/schlunk

    This is from a "law professor" at Vanderbilt University. It was not written by a bitter law grad who couldn't find a legal job. He concedes that law school is a poor investment for most students.

    http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

    As you can see, Vanderbilt University Law School is ranked as the 16th best law program, in the nation, according to US "News" & World Report. It shares this spot with the University of Texas-Austin.

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  22. It's like the Titanic movie except that every year, a NEW FUCKING TITANIC IS BUILT and they call it UNSINKABLE but it still FUCKING SINKS! And it will keep on sinking every single fucking year! That's the true tragedy. And it's like everyone who gets on the Titanic each time it sails has SEEN THE FUCKING MOVIE BUT THINKS THEY WILL BE LUCKY ENOUGH TO GET ON A LIFEBOAT!

    God fucking damn it, when will people learn that THERE AREN'T ENOUGH LIFEBOATS FOR PEOPLE ON THE TITANIC, no matter what the owners claim?

    I have little sympathy at this point. It's hard to feel sympathetic for people who have seen the movie five times and still think that the ending might be different if only they watch it one more time. I just have a huge depressing feeling that there's no hope whatsoever that this problem will be solved.

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  23. People keep mentioning the Titanic. Here's why I don't like the analogy all that much:

    1. At least the crew of the Titanic meant to bring everyone to their destination safely. Even if just to rake in more money.

    2. On the Titanic, some very wealthy cocksuckers died. How many connected kids are screwed over for life because of law school? Even the dumb rich kids that go to shitty law schools can land good jobs.

    3. The admins and professors are not on board. So they have no risk of drowning. Those assholes are safe on dry land.

    4. And last but not least, when the law grads sink, the professors and deans blame the passengers (students) not the fucking crew (ABA, faculty and admin) that is responsible for all those deaths.

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  24. @9:20, check out LawProf's latest post. Total law school applicant pool has shrunk 25%, despite the shitty economy for recent college grads, which means the word is getting out. And it's only going to get worse for the law school hucksters, who will be forced to lower admissions standards (to get victims) and academic standards (to keep them enrolled) further. This will result in lower bar passage rates, which is one stat that's not easy for them to paper over. (Yeah, they'll lobby to lower bar standards too, but that's another matter.)

    Eventually, some of the shitpiles will have to close.

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  25. Jack Whittington posted this article over a year ago:

    http://worldwidewhit.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/an-open-letter-to-david-segal-and-the-new-york-times/

    Here is a sample quote from Mr. Whittington's article:

    "Those of us who are realistic optimists – understand that we took a huge gamble in taking out the loans that we did, we know that a decent paying job is not a surefire thing right out of school , and we surely recognize that no one is going to do it for us. But to me and many others similarly situated the risk is worth it – if I had not racked myself silly with debt to go to undergraduate and graduate school I’d be a roughneck in an oilfield somewhere down in Texas."

    Moral of the lesson: Being a roughneck in an oilfield in Texas beats the heck out of being an unemployed law grad, two-time bar exam failure and drowning in student loan debt. The law school industry sure thanked Jack for his patronage.

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  26. Sounds like the moron thumbs his nose at oilfield rednecks. Well, my brother is married to a redneck queen. She's in her late 30s and she still makes quite a few men do a double take when they see her. I'll bet the idiot still thumbs his nose at oil workers. Fucking tool.

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  27. Maybe Jack should have spent less time picking fights with scambloggers and more time studying for the bar! Not that he'll make a living as an attorney anyway...

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  28. Dumbshit posted on Solo Practice University before he bombed the bar the first time. He claimed to have turned down his dream job at a sports law firm. Fucking idiot didn't want to take the Oklahoma bar, 'cause he's a good ol' Texas boy. The kid is so dumb, he stoopid.

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  29. Poor Jack, hopefully he gets back on his feet soon. The legal industry is really losing out on a potential star.

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  30. It appears that both the Texas oilfields and the Texas bar is being prejudiced by Jack Whittington's "delayed success."

    How is that JD working out for you Jack? How does it feel to waste another year on top of 3? Kids, Jack's tale is cautionary. Don't be fooled by the JD scam.

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  31. I sometimes try to imagine what I would have done during those three years I spent in law school had I not bothered to chase the carrot on a stick and gone at all.

    If I had gone to work I would have had an income for those three years instead of placing myself into debt.

    And every year thereafter I would have been earning and building a life and career instead of sinking in ever deeper debt.

    Maybe the Titanic analogy works in the sense that after law school and the ship sank, I was floundering in the water and hanging onto a piece of debris, but was then pulled to the bottom of the sea by the Titanic's suction.

    And Lady Duff Gordon, in a lifeboat, would watch and say: "Oh look, there goes my fabulous spring collection"

    And Molly brown, (who was a cool dudette and loaned Jack Whittington a suit in that James Cameron production) in a different lifeboat, unsinkable as always, would muse as well.

    Actually, Lady Duff was on the Lusitania. But who cares, the poor people and debtors all drowned anyway.

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  32. Painter you make me laugh. Did your school have a class on Lusitania law?

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  33. I can honestly say that once done with Law School (2013) I am going to go teach English in Asia somewhere. First, I have so much debt right now (around $175k) that I feel that stopping now would be silly. I might as well do the final year and get the torture over with. Plus, I doubt I'll ever be able to pay it back either way, so might as well get that fancy paper.

    By the way Nando, I just love the picture on this post. It really sums the whole experience up.

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    1. I constantly tell JD Painter to leave because he is so horrendously fucked financially. YOU have FIGURED IT OUT without a fake Russian telling him OVER and OVER.

      Flee the country and at least live....BTW if you have any Sallie Mae loans they are probably going to implode in a year or so because so many people are defaulting.

      Delete
  34. Terrified LS: I think you are the only person I would every advise to finish law school. If you have one year left and you plan on never paying the debt back and leaving the country, then use that last year of law school to chill, earn some spending money, find a teaching job abroad, and be ready to hop on that plane the day after you finish law school and pick up that diploma. Trust me, graduation day was the most depressing day of my life up until that point, and every day since then has been ever more so depressing, other than the day I quit my law job and went to do something else (which was a worse job than I had before I went to law school).

    I am rooting for you, dude! This is what the system needs: grads with the balls to say fuck it, and to take their lives elsewhere to countries that aren't designed to fuck you.

    Save a beer for me. I'll be joining you overseas as soon as I can!

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  35. As a 20 yr practitioner who graduated from a 4th tier crapper, here is my advice if you truly want to practice....open your own office as cheap as you can in a suburb close to a big city in a southern or midwestern state. Get on the court appointed list for criminal cases and advertise locally for car wreck cases. Go meet a chiropractor

    The court appointed fees continue to drop and the car wreck cases are harder to resolve, but this is your best chance to get rich. You will lose more money at first but if you are in debt who cares. If you can stand the outright pain in the ass this profession is, at some point you will get experience, privately retained clients, and bigger PI and comp cases and will be able to quit the court appointed list. In 20 years you will be in the top 5% of income in this country if you can survive the first few years. Odds are you will quit before you last that long as the first few years are torture for many reasons but odds are as you look at the alternatives for employment you will stick with it.

    Law is no different then any other job but it can make you rich in exchange for your time and hardwork. Do not bother holding out for a job with a firm that is even slightly reputable as you wont get one. You might get some nibbles from questionable lawyers or firms who want to use you and pay you next to nothing. The odds of you becoming partner are slim to none and they wont teach you all their skills. You are only delaying your possible success by doing this.

    I would not go to law school now but if you are going to have a chance at success, open your own practice, take your lumps. It delays family will destroy your relationships and you will become more of a Republican then you already are as you represent the worst of the human race. If you drink the liberal kool aid you will have plenty of big corporations to blame for your client not getting what he is entitled to in this entitlement society. You will become the ultimate limousine liberal.

    People dont go to law school to save the world or for justice, they go to make good money and maybe get rich. Unless you are willing to invest in a blue collar type business and work just as hard, there is no way to make money in this society as the middle class is gone thanks to Obama. This get a job work 40 hrs a week thing is not going to work anymore so you try law because you know the alternatives.

    Dont get me wrong, law is a horrible profession especially for non connected people trying to get in the circles but it can give you possibilities that will likely not be attained if you take the average career path.It can be lucrative though but you will decide your own fate, not some law firm you are trying to get to hire you. If you are not a white male, you might even be able to make a comfortable living as a gvt employee with little risk of losing your job.

    You cant undo what you did by going to law school so I would say give it a go for a few years because its not like med school where you go and realize you dont like it and quit. Law school is nothing to do with being a lawyer and you might find you are suited for it

    If you are a whiner, its everyone elses fault as to why things are the way they are, and you dont have street smarts or thick skin, the odds of you making law a worthwhile profession financially arer slim to none. Hopefully you knew this before you incurred the debt. If you are just now realizing it, you can dare to dream to be JD Painter who did not pass the bar and whose debt would scare anyone from going to law school.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Here is the problem with the TTTT logic posted by 10:40AM. When he graduated 20 years ago, there was hardly any tort reform in this country, meaning that he could settle whiplash cases for $10K or $20K easily with just a demand letter. Nowadays, insurance companies prefer to spend thousands of dollars just to get your client to settle for $500 or $1,000 for a soft tissue injury case. 20 years ago, you could go into Court and charge $4,000 for a DUI case. Now attorneys are charging $250 for such cases. If you graduated law school 20 years ago, chances are you already made your money. If you are graduating today, you won't be able to crack the top 5% of wage earners. Setting up a solo shop is easy but bringing in the clients is not. People at Solo Practice University say all you need is a cellphone and an office "in the clouds" to run a practice. This is utter horseshit. Most states mandate that you have a brick and mortar office. For example, last year, New Jersey issued an opinion stating that "virtual offices" do not satisfy the bona office rule requirement. It costs money to set up an office. A commercial landlord will want at least a 5 year lease committment with 3 months rent upfront (for 1st month and 2 months security deposit). Then you have to get a phone a T1 line and file cabinets. You need insurance. You need a receptionist. You need a computer, a server, and an IT person on retainer. These things cost money. One thing 10:40 says that is correct is that you will be in the red for the first few years. If you are supporting a family, how will you feed your kids? How will you pay your loans? The guy at 10:40 may very well have beaten the odds coming out of a "4th tier crapper" but then again 20 years ago, Cooley grads were making bank. Times have changed and unless you have a DeLorean with a flux capacitor, you won't be seeing those days again for as long as you live.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. But, in "Anon. May 9, 2012 10:40 AM"'s defense, he made the practice of drecklaw sound like the backstroke in a shit trench that is truly is. Certainly you will probably never break even practicing the law right now, but he has been the only one to point out what a soul-sucking Hellscape American law IS, and not the hip job the boob toob makes it out to be.

      Delete
    2. 1116...your points are well taken but here is my question..if you are class of 2012, stupidity of going to law school aside what do you advise...walk away and begin the food service orretail job you tried to avoid three years ago or give law practice a try as a solo or wait for doc review job or get used by established lawyers and then go solo..1040s approach might be outdated but you cant turnback time so what does a 2012 graduate do going forward if you disagree with that approach.

      Delete
  37. The links below are from a comment that I posted on my University of Nevada Las Vegas William S. Boyd Sewer of Law entry, from June 22, 2011. The websites are still active.

    http://www.josephscalia.com/

    Las Vegas attorney Joseph A. Scalia bills his office as “THE $500 LAW FIRM.” He refers to himself as “El Pelon” – which translates into “Baldie” - in order to attract clients. If you have traffic tickets, in need of representation for bankruptcy proceedings, or facing a DUI – and you have $500 – then “El Pelon” wants you to give him a call! He also registered the nickname.

    How the hell is a newcomer supposed to compete against such prices?! Throughout this nation, in all market sizes, there are established solos and law firms. Those attorneys can blow your ass out of the water, with their advertising budgets alone. Furthermore, they have experience on their side. This means that they know what they are doing, while you spent three years in an advanced humanities program called law school.

    When you add the ridiculous levels of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt to the equation, the recent graduate cannot reasonably be expected to charge $400 for an entire case, in order to attract clients. We are seeing a race to the bottom, in all job fields. However, at this rate, we may see future new lawyers take cases for a Snickers bar and a case of Cherry Coke.

    Murphy & Murphy Law Offices runs the Nevada PI Law blog. Check out this February 9, 2010 entry, posted by Craig Murphy:

    http://nvpilaw.com/blog/?p=411

    “What You Need to Know About Las Vegas Discount Lawyers, Reduced Fee Lawyers and Cut-Rate Lawyers

    Lawyers in Las Vegas have started advertising campaigns claiming to be “discount lawyers”, “reduced fee lawyers”, and and other versions of “cut-rate lawyers.” You must know a few things about the claimed discounts and how it could affect your case. Before hiring a lawyer or law firm that claims to be a discount or bargain priced lawyer, read the contract you will be required to sign. What are the terms of the contract that entitle you to the discounted attorney’s fees that will be charged for your representation? All of the advertisements for the discounted lawyer fees have disclaimers and conditions. In most instances, to qualify for the discounted rate, your case must be settled very quickly and with minimal effort. More likely than not, your claim must not involve any hands on work by an attorney. Instead, your claim will be handled by an employee who has no legal training or, at best, may have some minimal legal education for the performance of non-legal aspects of case handling. However, once a certain amount of time has gone by or the case requires more than minimal efforts, the amount charged by the cut-rate attorney will increase significantly. You will then be stuck with a cut-rate attorney who is charging you full price for handling your case. Worse than that, your claim will still probably be handled by the non-attorney staff person without any legal training.”

    In essence, PI lawyers are hawking their consumer’s guide to Nevada car crashes, while simultaneously calling out “cut-rate lawyers.” What an great “profession,” huh?!?!

    ReplyDelete
  38. One Jack passes the bar, the sky is the limit. I'm sure he will be a super lawyer within a few years. His Tulsa law degree is very impressive, and I'm sure big law partners will be fighting to hire him once he finally passes the bar. Legal talent like Jack only comes once in a generation.

    ReplyDelete
  39. I have to object to this, nando:

    'We are seeing a race to the bottom, in all job fields. However, at this rate, we may see future new lawyers take cases for a Snickers bar and a case of Cherry Coke.'

    Who the fuck is going to dole out Cherry Coke to these broke lawyers when you get them to take your case for a Snickers and a case of Sam's Club soda?

    ReplyDelete
  40. Nando, you bring up an excellent illustration for the Class of 2012 grads in "El Pelon." This is a guy that charges $500 for any legal problem. Why is he able to do this? Well I surmise he hires broke and unemployed attorneys to work for him for peanuts. He then sends a lawyer to each traffic court where that lawyer will process 20-25 cases during a typical calendar call. That's $10,000-$12,500 that the Pelon makes for having a body in court for one day. Can the new grad who knows nothing about trying DUI cases compete with this volume mill? Answer: He can't, even if he lowers his fees to $300-$400.

    Also, does a new grad going to be as hardcore as "EL Pelon?" This Pelon fella is Italian, yet he learned Spanish, shaved his head and grew a goatie just to appeal to the Spanish immigrant clientele. How far are new grads willing to go to attract a client base? Are you, Jim Hickbilly from the South, willing to pretend you are gay to attract gay clients? If you are going to do that, here is a tip: wear a buttplug and learn to walk their way. Don't worry, the buttplug shouldn't hurt since you have been fucked up the ass by your law school.

    ReplyDelete
  41. The commitment on a commercial lease is month to month because there are as many vacancies as unemployed lawyers who are unwilling to go solo yet bitch about the lack of job opportunities.

    The law school model is hilarious. People hate all the costs that come with start up posr grad yet willingly take huge loans for a degree to not pursue a career

    Law schools arent going under with all these smart idiots out there.

    ReplyDelete
  42. ^the above comment was GOLDEN! Laugh out loud epicly delicious!

    ReplyDelete
  43. @6:56,

    Maybe commercial landlords are ok with month to month tenancies in economically depressed areas such as Detroit but that won't fly in NYC where demand for office space has remained steady.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Life in nyc does not reflect the way of life in 99% of the usa...if you are a trump wanna be poseur who wants a ny law practice on a non connected fourth tier background then you discussing lease term issues in nyc is pretty hilarious.

      Delete
  44. El Pelon is a businessman. That's how he succeeds at this shit. He relies on volume. Here's another thing and it's not aimed at any lawyer in particular: the established mills take the easy cases.

    They take the cases with the best chance of winning. They take the ones that will settle quickly. Is your case 50-50? Go somewhere else cause these guys aren't gonna take your slip and fall unless they are at least 90% confident they'll get a favorable settlement quickly.

    So guys like Pelon can work as the guy at 6:35 said. Volume counts. It's the same in immigration firms. They can represent your typical broke immigrants for peanuts, because they are working on volume. On the PI cases, they take the easy cases. (Do the math: that leaves the difficult cases for pro se and the ignorant law grad. A real working formula there.)

    If anyone is walking this weekend for their diploma and reading this, hopefully you rape victims figured this shit out by now. I hope you spent your 2L and 3L years looking for non-legal work. The job market for lawyers is not gonna improve any time soon.

    ReplyDelete
  45. The yellow pages/phone book on Long Island has a staggering amount of ads for law firms. Take the Nassau County yellow pages for instance: there are ads on the cover, on the spline, and on just about every edge as well as inside.

    Some advertise constantly on local television. Two stand out in my mind and one cannot help but remember the names: Weitz and Luxemburg (For Mesothelioma cases) and Cellino and Barnes.

    As far as I go I could probably be doing better if I could expand and grow a business. I know of someone who does bridge and other large commercial painting projects and seems to be doing very well.

    However, I cannot get a small business loan due to my ruined credit because of the Student Loan debt.

    They call it: "Excessive Obligations in relation to income" or a "High Debt to income ratio"

    If I want to hire employees I will need to spend about 3K a year per man for Worker's Comp. Health insurance is costly as well, though tax deductible. And then there is Liability Insurance, Vehicle costs, self employment tax, sales taxes, advertising expenses etc.

    I have a credit card with a four hundred dollar limit, and that is all the credit I can get now.

    Default with Sallie Mae is still on my credit report, even though the collection agency, GC Services, said it would be removed three years ago.

    At the very least, there should be a place to get a small business loan for student loan debtors.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Painter, I am glad that you mentioned the Yellow Pages. Take a look at the numbers of ad pages by industry, from my local edition – which was issued in September 2011:

    Attorneys – 58 pages (73-130)
    Auto – 34 (132-165)
    Dentists – 28 (309-336)
    Heating/HVAC – 26, including eight full pages of coupons (485-510)
    Insurance – 24 (529-552)
    Physicians – 40 (695-734)
    Restaurants – 21 (814-834)

    Keep in mind that the automotive section includes everything from auto accessories, dealers, paint and body, wreckers and used parts, etc. According to practitioners in this metro area, we have a glut of dentists. Yet, more than twice as many Yellow Pages are devoted to attorney ads.

    Furthermore, the figure for lawyer advertisements above does not include the GIGANTIC, full-page, color ads on the front and back covers – as well as the inside front cover. In fact, all three of these ads are for firms that center their work on PI and medical malpractice cases.

    Does anyone with an IQ above 70 – and some understanding of the legal field – think that the lawyer job market is not oversaturated?!?! If so, then you may want to contact a PI firm, as you may be experiencing traumatic brain injury. You should head to a hospital first. Also, unless someone caused your mental diminishment, you will be of no use to those lawyers.

    Plus, the phone book is merely one way to attract potential clients. At all hours of the day, you will be subjected to TV and radio ads for ambulance chasers, disability attorneys, criminal defense lawyers and DUI mills. There is no way that a newly-minted lawyer can compete with such advertising, especially when those firms have tons of experience.

    Name recognition counts for a lot in this world. This helps explain why 80 and 90 year old cockroaches continue to be re-elected to Congress – even though they have not had an original idea or important cause in the last 2-3 decades.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHgcOJ2uhDo

    Check out this commercial from Lowell Stanley, the “bare knuckles lawyer.” This was from 1994. “They started it. We’ll finish it.” His phone number is listed as 459-CASH. But this is a prestigious, “honorable profession,” right?!?!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=CF_4kZaS5Rs&NR=1

    Check out this Spanish-language immigration law commercial. Wow! They are also taking cases for $500. They will help you with your work permit, SSI, and driver’s license issues. Who the hell wouldn’t want to have Ley Ayuda represent them?!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P14e8akaQJI&feature=related

    “If you’ve been hurt by anything – a doctor, a hospital, a car accident, a defective drug or medical device, a nursing home, a slip or fall - you may be entitled to a lot of money. To find out, call 1-800-LAWYERS now.”

    ReplyDelete
  47. Open new years Eve at Midnight.

    ReplyDelete
  48. I have a property line dispute with my neighbor. Is anyone on here willing to do it for $50 and movie tickets?

    ReplyDelete
  49. This is getting hilarious. Attorney advertising and sleazy appearances were around way back when going to law school, even the 4th tier, was celebrated and lead to a nice $$$ future. Nobody who wanted to be in the profession said much back then about the ambulance chasers and their advertising innovations.

    Jump ahead and lets talk about bald italian lawyers who speak french yet act jewish while coming up with slogans that makes even fags want to call them and what a shame they are to the profession.

    Law is a bad investment for most but any profession where people invest thousands of dollars to get a degree which allows them to practice only to then ask and figure out that it is competitive and sleazy is beyond stupid and backwards. Assuming this does get figured out early, these same people still get a degree and dont want to invest in filing cabinets to open an office. I suppose the same people are the ones who spend years and money building a classic car yet when its done refuse to buy gas for it and then get around by riding a bus while they ignore repaying the companies who provided the parts for the car.

    Even guys like JD make me laugh. Hey let me take out a bunch of law school loans, fail the bar, ignore paying the money back, and then bitch because they cant get a small business loan.

    The legal profession is a joke but you cant ignore the fact that too many are all out to just keep borrowing money, live like kings and not suffer any negativity for failing. No wonder this whole country is about dead.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Nando, check out this Lowell "the Hammer" Stanley commercial:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCSY0whNaNs&feature=related

    Notice the violence in the background as the "Hammer" states how he will "beat up" the stingy insurance companies. Incidentally, attorney advertising was practically banned before the mid '70s until SCOTUS ruled it was protected commercial free speech. After that decision, it all went downhill for this lousy profession.

    These kids graduating in these few days are suckers. They bought the Hollywood glorification of the profession. There is nothing sexy about eating raamen noodles, living with your parents and defending a debt beat pedophile from an indecent exposure in a school zone charge. Your client will likely hand you gism rather than the bags or suitcases of cash you saw in "Lincoln Lawyer" or "The Firm." I can't wait to see some commencement videos. You can tell from their facial expressions who is fucked and who has a mommy or daddy that is a partner at a firm or a federal judge.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Nando:

    Check out my latest idea and post: 1-800-Bed-Sores.

    I think you will laugh, and I only wish it was your narrative voice instead of mine!

    ReplyDelete
  52. @1:42 PM. You wrote:

    "Jump ahead and lets talk about bald italian lawyers who speak french yet act jewish while coming up with slogans that makes even fags want to call them and what a shame they are to the profession."

    You sound horrible and racist.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Jd you sound whiney, broke, and alone so whats your point?

      Delete
  53. ^

    JD Painter,


    "You sound horrible and racist."

    Do not use terms meaning of which you do not comprehend. There is nothing wrong about acknowledging that people belong to different races. Suggesting otherwise is akin to stating that a traffic light has three lights of the same color with the same meaning. You will be in deep troubles if you start to drive according to this false belief.

    You are brainwashed and indoctrinated by politicians who propagate this stupid idea that all people are equal and are the same in eyes of the law. They propagate this bullshit to get votes and not because they believe in it. Finally, you went to a law school and found out for yourself that some people are more equal than the others.

    Now, if you think I am racist, my reply to you is - "Yes, I am, and I am proud of it."

    ReplyDelete
  54. 8:16:

    Wow...There is a special spot in hell for you, asshole.

    ReplyDelete
  55. ^

    There is no hell. There is no heaven. Religion is another bullshit you are indoctrinated to believe.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

    However, good night. Thank you for playing.

    ReplyDelete
  56. The Hammer is an actual lawyer. The background looks like a shitty ninja movie. You got guys being tossed through walls, and punching and kicking the shit out of each other on a stairway.

    Yep. This profession is a shithole. And the lawyer talking looks like he is one second from smashing someone in the face with a barstool.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Manage contact information from anywhere with Outlook 2010 on any PC or on your smartphone with Outlook Mobile 2010. Connect with others, manage your calendar, and stay on top of your to-dos with Outlook 2010 download .

    ReplyDelete
  58. I thought Blogger was getting better at detecting spam from pathetic shitbags.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Law is a gutter profession. No one wants to here this but here goes. Connections matter. And race unfortunately still matters in many areas. I have seen bright black and minority attorneys get hired by good firms. They went to good undergrad schools and served on law journals. They even got published as students. When they get on with a firm, they can win awards and get clients. A couple of years later, they are let go. They then can practice on their own or find something else to do.

    This is nothing new of course. The same thing happened to Jewish, Italian and other ethnic white lawyers prior to the 1950s. Shit, back then you had Jewish lawyers from Harvard and Columbia that ended up not getting hired by good firms. Or any law firms, for that matter. Thats what you need to know about this shit ass profession.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Before you dismiss these findings, as merely reflective of a two-year period, remember that the glut of attorneys did not occur overnight. In fact, ABA law schools have been overproducing lawyers for decades. The shrinking job market has made this reality more transparent.

    http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/administrative/legal_education_and_admissions_to_the_bar/stats_1.authcheckdam.pdf

    According to the ABA chart “Enrollment and Degrees Awarded 1963-2010,” between academic years 1980-1981 to 2009-2010 - a span of thirty years - ABA-accredited law schools awarded 1,161,863 law degrees. Yes, that is correct: these schools produced one million, one hundred sixty-one thousand, eight hundred and sixty three law graduates!! What an ethical and responsible industry, huh?!?!

    In fact, in the five years from 2005-2006 to 2009-2010, ABA law schools pumped out 217,703 graduates. In the ten year span from 2001-2002 to 2009-2010, fully 411,271 people received an American law degree. From 1995-1996 to 2009-2010, a total of 609,102 JDs were awarded by ABA-accredited law schools. In the span of 20 years - covering 1990-1991 to 2009-2010 - ABA law schools produced 803,635 grads. From 1985-1986 to 2009-2010, these diploma mills flooded the market with 983,284 law graduates.

    Keep in mind that the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics noted that there were roughly 759,200 employed attorneys, in 2008. This figure includes ancient lawyers, who have been licensed and practicing for 35 years or longer. The BLS also prognosticated that there would be an additional 98,500 lawyer positions, in 2018 - a 13 percent increase, over the course of ten years.

    http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm#emply

    The newer version - as of today's date - now shows that there were 728,200 people in the U.S. employed as lawyers in 2010. This represents a decrease of 31,000 attorney positions in the span of two years! Furthermore, BLS now predicts a mere ten percent increase, from 2010-2020 - with only 73,600 additional lawyer positions by 2020. Why the hell isn't this front page news?!

    Ask yourself if a responsible, ethical industry would continue to produce FAR TOO MANY GRADUATES - for the available number of positions in that field. Simply put, the ABA and the law schools are FULLY AWARE of the situation. Their own published data and statements reflect this knowledge. Yet, they keep pumping out too many JDs.

    ReplyDelete
  61. In order to help visualize just how bad the lawyer glut is, I think it helps to divide out the number of graduates that regional legal markets would need to absorb each year in order for there to be approximately full employment.

    If one takes the U.S. population of 308,745,538 from the 2010 Census and divide it by the 44,004 law degrees awarded during the 2009-2010 academic year this means that each regional legal market would need to employ one new lawyer each year for each 7016 people in population that it has.

    Wichita, KS for example has a population of 382,368 people. Dividing this by 7016 means that Wichita would need to have jobs for 54 new attorneys every year.

    Recession or no recession, Wichita is NEVER going to have jobs for nearly this many new attorneys each year.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Great post. But it won't persuade lemmings from applying. Or sending in their seat deposit. Or wasting three years, even when their first semester grades are shit.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Nando,

    The disgraceful animals at the SETON HALL LAW TOILET are scrubbing their wiki page. Notice how they buried the negative press article mentions and renamed the 'controversies' section to "media coverage". They also tried to discredit Scott Bullock's opinion by stating that he is basically just a blogger who has an axe to grind against the industry. Maybe you can roast these pigs again someday. Keep up the great work.
    "

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seton_hall_law#Media_Coverage

    ReplyDelete
  64. LAW PROF. IS FIRST AND ONLY ONE TOLD THE JD GRADS who had been trained for 3-4 years facing big problems .
    NO one , even judge, even ABA/ STATE SUPREME COURT PANELS are silent for law grads, the worst being made is ABA/ each State prohibited law grads, J.D. ( who has no license) CAN NOT GIVE LEGAL ADVICE. YOU see? Such inhibition violated US Constitution---FIRST AMENDMENT--FREE SPEECH.
    Each person can give a legal advice , even 3 years old child too. The mater is the person takes in or not. i.e giving medicines input, the matter is the person will take it in or not. i.e. advice person eating taco bell will get slim/fat, the matter is the person will take that advice or not. SO, paralegal, J.D giving legal advice does not constituent illegal . ABA/ State set such rule purposely, strip down the people's knowledge . , to abetting only license attorney twist the law as wants. What / where ethic rules? Is ABA/State permit them to twist?
    ABA is a profit association does not have authority to accredit each law school, .....only State can do. But whether grads from
    accredited law school or not, if once been in and paid tuition , .trained as set for credits, graduated from it, the title of J.D.earned. As a professional with other fields degree grads. Giving a legal advice who needs is certainty.

    The rule came down from ABA/ State to PROHIBITED J.D. of free speech on legal issue ,..... is lunatic, unreasonable, unacceptable. We need to revise it.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ReplyDelete

 
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