Thursday, June 14, 2012

TTTT Smells of Desperation: University of Dayton School of Law is Now Giving Away First Year Law Books for Free to Those Officially Visit and Enroll

Five Alarm Turd Lingering in the Air:

A blog reader sent me the following link on this commode:


Choosing the right law school is challenging, but affording law school is even tougher. Let us make it easier by buying your first-year books.

Each admitted student who makes an official admitted student campus visit and enrolls for 2012 will receive up to $1,000 for first-year course materials, including law books, law reference texts and law supplements. Books will be available at the law school’s orientation programs.

Choose one of the following visiting options to meet the book scholarship requirement:

· Admitted Student Law Day programs 
· Information Sessions (held most Mondays and Fridays)
· An individual appointment, scheduled with the Office of Admissions and Financial Aid by email or 937-229-3555 

Walk-in visits do not qualify as an official scheduled visit. 

Summer-starters must visit by March 31, fall-starters by June 30.” [Emphasis in original]

Yes, this must be one hell of a prestigious “institution of higher learning,” huh?!?! The schools are now in carnival barker mode.

Ranking: As you can see, US “News” & World Report placed this commode into the fourth tier of American law schools. Bob Morse decided to label this segment as “Rank Not Published.” Their mothers must be very proud of this accomplishment.

Supposed Employment Placement Rate and Starting Salary Info: According to the trash pit, 86.3 percent of the Class of 2010 found employment within nine months of graduation. Of course, the school does not point out that it includes those not working in the legal field.

Also, the school lists the average starting salary for its Class of 2010 as $56,841. Keep in mind that only 67 out of 120 students reporting that they were employed in positions where bar admission was required or preferred bothered to furnish their income to the school. Only 56 percent of this group provided salary data. Imagine the real average starting salary for the overall cohort, with everyone’s information - including those who are stocking shelves at Target and working in call centers.

Average Law Student Indebtedness: USN&WR lists the average law student indebtedness - for those members of the University of Dayton JD 2011 who incurred debt for law school - as $107,458. Furthermore, 91 percent of this school’s 2011 class took on such toxic debt. Remember that this amount does not take undergraduate debt into account.

Faculty and Administrator Pay: Check out the 2010 Form 990 for Employer ID No. 31-0536715, i.e. University of Dayton. On line 20 of page 1, you will notice that this private corporation held $1,091,366,394 in end of year total assets. After calculating $480,631,078 in total end of year liabilities, the “non profit” only had $610,735,316 in end of year NET ASSETS.

Let’s see how well the individual pigs are doing, as opposed to the debt-strapped students. On the last page of this document, you will see that then-dean Lisa A. Kloppenberg raked in $312,103 in TOTAL COMPENSATION for the tax year ending June 30, 2010. Richard Perna, “law professor” at this toilet, made $246,988 in TOTAL COMPENSATION. By the way, he received his JD from Villanova - in 1975. How many recent grads of that commode have the opportunity to become tenured “law professors”?!?!

Conclusion: Call or email these pigs, and let them know that the students are slowly approaching “sophisticated consumer” status – even if the piece of trash called Melvin Schweitzer erroneously believes that all college graduates fall into this category. Again, these swine can be reached at or 937-229-3555. In the final analysis, saving up to $1,000 on casebooks is NOT worth incurring an additional $110-$140K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt.

Tuition will increase at this law school, at some point during your time at this fourth tier dung heap. Hell, the school will likely raise tuition each year. The job market for recent law grads – especially those in the economic dead zone known as Ohio – will not suddenly become better. Again, DO NOT accept this pathetic offer. The school is trying to bait you with free books for the first year. Furthermore, the pigs are AWARE of the fact that there are too many law grads for the available number of attorney positions. Also, the faculty and staff are paid up front, in full – while YOU must repay those loans, with interest. As such, the cockroaches do not give one damn what happens to you upon graduation. They will simply move on to the next group of victims/students.


  1. Why don't they give these poor kids something useful like a free education? It's not like its going to lead to a lawyer job for most of them anyway.

  2. 2010 stats for Dayton, 9 months out:

    143 grads, of whom 88 are in bar req'd, full-time jobs. Now, that makes Dayton look risky, but with odds still in favor of the graduate.

    HOWEVER, no less than 50 of these grads are solo-ing (7), in firms of 2-10 lawyers (42), or in firms of "unknown size" (1).

    I believe that "small firm, 2-10 lawyers" is where bad law schools scam-up their numbers under the new and improved placement survey protocols. It is instructive that T25 law schools generally end up with 10-15 graduates in the solo and 2-10 categories combined, not 50.

    How many small firms, in this economic environment, say: "Work is so plentiful that we ought to bring another lawyer into the firm-- and not an experienced one, let's hire a recent graduate from a crap law school!"?

    I would be shocked if even 15 of the 50 solo/small firm jobs involve both earning as much as a waiter and doing real legal work. So, subtract 35 bar req'd full-time jobs from the 88 reported by Dayton, and give the school the benefit of the doubt on all the others: and wind up with a score of 53 law jobs, or 37% of the graduating class.

  3. This school is employing desperate used car salesman tactics. Hey you, want to buy a 1991 Honda Civic with 300,000 miles for $5,000? We'll throw in a complimentary oil change and car wash if you purchase TODAY!

  4. (Piggybacking off the guy above)

    We'll even throw in a free air filter and pair of windshield wipers. All you gotta do is drop by our lot between before the end of business today. Come on down!!

  5. You guys aren't being fair... to used care salespersons.

    These days it's a much more honorable profession than law school dean.

  6. I had Kloppenberg for a prof back when she was at her previous trash heap, the University of Oregon. Her exam was, pretty much word-for-word, the same exam as she'd given in a previous year (and had been dumb enough to put on reserve in the library). With such a workhorse leading the glorious UD faculty, it's hard to believe they haven't vaulted into the T14 by now.

  7. $1000 in books? Nah.

    If you throw in a daily blow job for the next 3 years, then maybe...

  8. ^

    Be careful with your wishes. They may come through.

  9. 12:27

    Law school is 3 years. A thousand BJs is not worth $110K in student loans.

    1. Are you sure? That only comes out to $110 per day. That's FAR less than my last marriage ended up costing me...

  10. 1,000 BJs x $10 (Bangkok rate) =$10,000

    Judge Learned Hand would agree that it is not cost effective to attend law school if the blow jobs metric were employed.

    Final Analysis: Law school is a rip off. At least if you buy an automobile that turns out to be a lemon, you have legal recourse. In the bizarro world of law school, you have no legal recourse because you are held to, not the reasonable person standard, but the higher "sophisticated consumer" standard.

    1. To be continued, actually.

      Quite a few of the lawsuits from former students are still working their way through the courts...

  11. But the well set up and connected kids that couldn't get into a better ABA accredited law school will enroll at this school or any 4th tier school like it and end up with a decent job at the end, while the rest of the suckers are FUCKED for life with debt.

    Student Lending and the abuses that followed has ruined the lives of a generation.

  12. Can you sense the desperation of these pigs? It's almost reaching the point of used car salesman tactics.

    For every sucker that accepts and enrolls in our institution of higher learnin' by June 20th, we will provide you with coupons worth $20 off each visit to Arbys. Get yer Roast Beef 'n Cheddar on while studying the wonderful and exciting world of law!

    Lame attempt I know ... maybe the colonel can come up with something a little more amusing.

  13. Wow. What next? Give away free Barbri courses to the kids that enroll in this dump? I mean, at least that will help you get licensed. And for the money pits, they'll get you paying tuition for three years.

  14. Law schools are in serious trouble. I looked around the intertubes and found that the following schools are still accepting applications for Fall 2012:

    St. Thomas (MN)
    Barry University
    Ave Maria
    Texas Wesleyan
    William Mitchell
    SUNY Buffalo
    Roger Williams
    Florida CoasTTTTal
    TTTThomas Cooley (big surprise there)

    Between the DayTTTTon law sales pitch and the fact that in about 10 minutes of web browsing I was able to find 12 schools still taking applications on June 15 (two months before orientation starts at most law sewers), I think its safe to say the message about the dangers of law school is sinking in. At this late stage, law schools are not accepting applications because they are expecting a sudden rush of Rhodes Scholars with 180 LSATs who have been shut out of top tier law schools. They are taking whatever is left out there hoping to fill their classes with warm bodies.

    I wouldn't be surprised if there are lemmings on Law School Numbers with profiles like this who are probably being considered for admission by some law commode somewhere:

    GPA: 0.024
    LSAT: -32
    School type: Community College
    Major: Pot smoking
    Class rank: 1378/1378.
    Extracurricular information: I haven't been arrested for public urination in over two weeks. Thats the longest I have gone since I was 15. I think that will impress the admissions committee.

    Sarcasm aside, I think we are seeing the breaking point for law schools. Some schools will not be able to put enough bodies in enough seats to justify operating costs. Dayton isn't offering up free books because someone in their administration had a sudden charitable impulse. They're doing it because too many accepted students decided not to enroll.

    Student loans are the lifeblood of the law school scam. The one thing required for student loans is students. When the students get wise and decide not to enroll, the scam dies.

  15. What's funny is that I know two people who attended Dayton despite getting into OSU simply because they didn't want to commute and couldn't pick up their family to move. They're okay though, went back to their old jobs making the same pay and at least didn't borrow for COL.

  16. Included with those free books should be a potassium cyanide pill.

  17. The schools are certainly not expecting a surge from high LSAT and high GPA applicants. They're scraping the bottom of the barrel. Which schools will accept lower scores and which ones will scale back their enrollments?

  18. In other words, since the JD from this school is worthless, you're really paying $100k+ for a couple of books.

    To what extent do law professors even use books in their curriculae??

  19. Take a look at this TLS summary of the Univer$iTTTTy of DayTTTTon Sewer of Law; it was published in December 2009 and updated in July 2010:


    The University of Dayton’s College of Law was established in 1922, but closed in 1935 due to the Great Depression. It stayed closed for nearly 40 years, reopening as the School of Law in 1974 and gaining ABA accreditation a year later. Dayton Law is one of the few schools in the nation that offers an accelerated two-year JD program in which prospective law students can begin in the summer and complete their JD requirements in five semesters. This option has attracted middle-aged professionals, parents and career graduate students who want to fast track their degree.”

    If the university gave a damn about the students and graduates, then the law school should have kept its doors shut. However, JD programs are a cash cow to most U.S. colleges.

    “Nearly four decades later, in September 1974, this expectation became a reality, and the school, renamed, the "University of Dayton School of Law" reopened. University of Dayton President Rev. Raymond A. Roesch said at the time: "Our interest is not merely in providing, under private auspices, opportunities for the acquisition of legal expertise, worthy though this goal may be. Rather we see herein an exceptional opportunity to promote Christian justice, social as well as individual, and thus to help humanize society."

    The univer$ity was aware of “branding,” back in 1974. The pigs recognized that the term “school of law” sounds more prestigious than “college of law.” This is mere window dressing. How many employers in today’s GLUTTED legal job market care about the name distinction of this fourth tier trash pit?

    As the commenter above noted, this "product" is worthless. In essence, the gullible students who accept this offer will be incurring $110K+, for “up to” $1,000 in free books. Yes, what a great deal, huh?!?!

    Does this arrangement remind anyone of those bus companies that will drive your ass to out-of-state casinos for the small cost of $10-$20 – for a round trip?! In fact, many of the ultimate benefactors, i.e. the casinos, will usually provide the duped with $10 in coins and a free buffet ticket once they depart the bus and enter the hotel. The vultures know that the seniors and other desperate fools will easily pay for that meal, gas, and coins MANY times over.

  20. What a dogturn of a cunt this school is! I teach at a for profit online school and I we sucker dumb fucks in with "free laptop!" scams. Now law schools are sucking cunts in with "free books!" scams?

    Someone, somewhere, is making a FUCKING KILLING off providing sales and consulting services to higher education!

    1. Sounds to me like you aren't any better...

  21. (that's meant to be "dogturd", not "dugturn". Too much Friday evening booze to make me forget my law school loans...)

  22. There are times when I feel so discouraged.

    When I feel that none of this blogging makes a difference, and that higher ed will continue to destroy lives, and it will go on and on

  23. Law books, the gateway drug to student debt. A law book is a collection of free, already written, court decisions. Unlike most school books, a law book author does not explain the material. Law books, like law school are obsolete. You could just hand out a one page index at the beginning of the semester and law students could pull the cases up, instantly, over the internet for free.

  24. @713: intellectually-honest professors do exactly that.

    i had 2 in law school. both adjuncts. go figure.

  25. Great point, 7:13 p.m., something that those of us who went to law school in the pre-digital age tend to forget.

    And, then, to extend the point--what is there about the law school experience that can't be replaced with downloadable or streaming content?

    Caselaw book, law libraries, ornate law school buildings, law professors, law deans, career services departments...the massive cost of all these things are piled on the shoulders of the poor students, and yet all are relics of the analogue age, like most legal jobs.

    IMO, general law courses, and the professors who teach them, are unnecessary--they can be replaced with a recorded bar review type course and an online discussion group.

    The only kind of courses where you need personal instruction are clinicals--and for those it would be better to replace tenured layabouts (who wouldn't know a courtroom from a facuty lounge) with adjunct practitioners.

    A clinical model--law school without law professors or buildings, only adjuncts-- would not improve the job prospects of students. But it would be shorter-term, infinitely less expense, and provide students with the dignity of graduating with the ability to do some legal work.

  26. The whole profession is a sham. Think about it. How does a private vendor get to make a killing by printing parsed public record?

    The schools could give their students a list of cases to look up online for free. But the cocksuckers don't want that. And so the student gets fucked by paying $110 for a crim law casebook that weighs 8 pounds.

    The law schools don't teach you how to practice law. Or to even pass the bar exam. But private companies step right up and teach you how to pass this exam for a few thousand dollars. My piece of shit evidence professor even taught some of the bar exam courses. Like this cocksucker didn't make enough money. He covered shit he never discussed in class.

    Can anyone out there honestly say that college graduates could not pass the bar exam simply by taking the bar prep course for several months?

    1. YES.

      Apparently the bar exam is a bridge too far for a lot of people who complete college, law school, AND a bar review course.

    2. Many college grads could take a bar review course and pass the exam. The 3 years is not necessary. but it's a cartel, so they get their money.


    Here is a link to an article about graduate programs that are not worth the money. Law school is one of them. Thanks to people like Nando, the word is getting out, the plight of many law grads is becoming more main stream knowledge. Law schools have gone out of there way to obscure the truth about employment statistics.

    The main beneficiaries of this scam have been law professors, other faculty, and the affiliated colleges. It is especially obscene when they make their money from students going into debt based on false employment outcomes.

    Not to mention no real lawyer skills are taught in law school, that would require effort, and they would not want to bother the sacred cow tenured law professors working six hours a week.

  28. "Can anyone out there honestly say that college graduates could not pass the bar exam simply by taking the bar prep course for several months?"

    Good point. Another systemic change, after the primary one of cutting law schools by 50%, is to perhaps eliminate an undergraduate education for law school application, or at least require only certain prerequisites rather than the actual undergrad degree.

    It's fucking annoying that graduate degrees mean that students are spending 7-10 years in school, whereas in other countries its more like 4-6.

    1. Getting rid of the UG requirement would create MORE applicants, not less.

      I'd rather see them get rid of the UG *and* law school requirements. ANYONE can sit for the bar exam. Only it should be about 100 times more difficult to pass than it is today.

  29. Head to this LSD discussion entitled “Anybody Know Anything About U. Dayton Law School?”

    Scroll down to read this classic response from user “1LMan” - which was posted on April 21, 2008 at 8:27:47 am:

    “I've been there so you can't say I've never seen it. Also, you can talk it up all you like dude. One nice building hardly makes it a great law facility. Also, REALITY CHECK: IT IS 4th TIER FOR A REASON!!!

    I hate to break it to you, but nobody worth working for is going to be heavily recruiting ppl. that got into dayton. Their numbers are below the median for the LSAT for goodness sakes.

    Go ahead though, spend 100k on a legal education to go make 30k doing some crappy job. It's your life.

    I'm so tired of the "anybody can be a lawyer" arguments on here. Sure, any jack ass can get into some toilet law school and earn a JD. However, it's schools like Dayton and other 4th tier rat holes that give the legal profession a bum rap.”

    Others pointed out the significant shortcomings of this fourth tier trash heap. Of course, many lemmings took offense at people trying to destroy their little dreams - with inconvenient facts and reality.

    @11:58 am

    Thank you for the link and the support.

    “A law degree from a fourth-tier school

    The number of law school graduates rose by 11 percent between 1999 and 2009, according to The New York Times, yet the paper also reports that 15,000 attorney and legal staff positions were eliminated between 2008 and 2011. For law students - especially those from bottom-ranking schools - a high-paying job is no sure thing.

    A 2011 National Association for Law Placement survey found that, while 88 percent of 2010 law school graduates were employed, not all grads had positions in their field. Nearly 9 percent worked in "other capacities," and 11 percent worked part time. And while 18 percent of 2010 graduates were able to obtain starting salaries of around $160,000, nearly half of reporting graduates were making annual salaries that fell between $40,000 and $65,000.”

    As you can see, fifth rate "reporter" Kathryn Hawkins is a lazy pig. She simply accepts NALP’s data at face value. She is clearly ignorant of the legal job market. Her “logic” is akin to stating the following: “For men - especially those who have more than 10% body fat and less than $50 million in the bank - a date with Salma Hayek or Beyonce is no sure thing.”

  30. This really is a third tier reaity

  31. Giving away free books is a sign of the schools crumbling. Next we'll see these fucks admit those with 144 LSATs and 2.8 GPAs from tenth rate bible colleges.

  32. "Next we'll see these fucks admit those with 144 LSATs and 2.8 GPAs from tenth rate bible colleges."

    Next? That's happening NOW:

    Not sure about the 10th rate Bible collegs, but the 7th-tier crap piles are already accepting 140-145 LSATs and given that many are still accepting applications and facing shortfalls, they'll probably be a spot for everyone.

    There are a lot of schools now with July deadlines. Classes start in August. We're past desperation even now.

    Anyone who applies to a 4th-tier school at this point is basically like the guy who swoops in on the horny drunk homely chick at 2 am.

  33. Shit, anyone who applies to a TTTT at this point is like the guy who swoops in on the homely fat chick who already balled 3 men that night.


    The shills at LawCrossing posted a “feature” labeled “The Legal Job Market in Columbus, Ohio.” Here are a few portions from that entry:

    “There are only a few major law firms in Columbus, Ohio, since most of them have very few attorneys and can only handle a few cases at a time. However, there is one law firm that is not only well known, and the biggest law firm in Ohio, but is also well respected throughout the nation. The law firm is known as Thompson, Hine, LLP. It was highly rated among the best corporate law firms in the United States.”

    This industry organ immediately admits that there are only a few Biglaw firms in Columbus, Ohio. If you foolishly decide to attend the Univer$iTTTTy of DayTTTTon Sewer of Law, then have fun competing with JDs from Ohio State and high-ranking law schools, for those positions. Keep in mind that Biglaw pigs typically do not bother with TTT and TTTT students and graduates. Then again, if you are from the “right” family – but were too damn dumb to get into a decent school – the rats may find room for you.

    Later on, the article continued:

    “The Columbus, Ohio job market is growing, though existing firms are currently not big enough to accommodate the ever-growing number of law school graduates. They cannot all be accommodated by the small law firms in the city. Most of them have to relocate to other cities where they can find internships in other bigger law firms. Most law school graduates have to start their careers with internships before they can start to practice law on their own.”

    The swine at LawCrossing finally reveal the truth - to a small extent - regarding the legal job market. Of course, the bitches then turn around and claim that MOST recent Ohio JDs must relocate to find jobs in larger firms. The above paragraph was not published by a bitter law grad or a scamblogger. It was not posted by Paul Campos. In the end, it is important to remember that even a law school industry propaganda machine has reached this conclusion.

    Towards the end of the article, the editors included this nonsense:

    “The average attorney in Columbus earns an hourly wage of about $22.02. This amount totals to a mean annual income of $45,800, which includes a 7% rise in average income over the previous year. Columbus, Ohio compares poorly to the rest of the country regarding the annual income of its attorneys.”

    This is NOT a great income – especially if your sorry ass owes $110K-$145K in additional NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt! Many recent law grads would be thrilled to make $45,800 – or to see a 7 percent increase in pay over the prior year. Do not accept that published figure at face value.

    Would you pay $25K for a 1990 Toyota Corolla that has logged 235,000 miles?!?! Hell, at least that car may perform its main task, i.e. transporting you to work, job interviews and other destinations. You cannot say the same for a law degree from a festering trash heap.

  35. Overall, it is said that about half of law school grads get real full-time lawyer jobs. The true percentage is likely much worse, since placement offices scam-up their numbers, even under the improved reporting requirements, with things like solo and two lawyer storefront law offices, opened by the recent grads, and doomed to make no money.

    However, as bad as things are will be worse in three years. Law as a profession is contracting, even free-falling, at the high, middle, and low end:

    1. Big firms are downsizing and going bankrupt as corporate clients discover that it is way more cost-effective to do their legal work in-house and as these clients question the ancient billable hours model.

    2. Public sector lawyer jobs are disappearing due to austerity and budget cuts. Moreover, one or two-year judicial clerkships-- the gateway to the profession for many moderately successful law students--are becoming permanent positions because appellate court judges don't like training a new crop of clerks every other year.

    3 . Document review is disappearing due to outsourcing and software that sorts documents more effectively than human JDs.

    4. Due to computers, nonlawyers have ready access to sample forms for no-contest divorces, wills, and trusts.

    Kids: Don't spend 200K for a ticket on the Titanic, aka legal profession!

  36. This profession is a sinking ship. If you feel you need more education, do something you enjoy or that's at least in demand.

  37. Akron (also in Ohio) is giving away $50 "book vouchers" for anyone who visits the school, financing travel expenses for individual visits up to $250 per student, AND paying for a commercial bar review course for all of its graduates. Of course, the students actually are paying for the bar review courses - they're just paying for the courses up front over 3 years through increased tuition and fees.

  38. Despite getting into better schools, I spent my 1L year at UD because it was closer to home and they offered me a scholarship. I absolutely hated the place; it was full of rich fuck-ups addicted to cocaine and adderall. I suspected that a good number of the kids were cheating like crazy (it had been an issue there before), and when I transferred out to a better school, my grades/rank/job opportunities improved immensely. UD doesn't help you land a job and it doesn't help you prepare for the bar (70% pass for July 2011).

  39. I graduated from the University of Dayton with a degree in Political Science with a prelaw option Cum Laude in 1995. I was admitted to several law schools across the United States, the University of Dayton School of Law offered me a scholarship covering two thirds of the tuition, so I chose to attend the first year of law school at there. At the end of the first year, my GPA had gone from 3.7 to 1.5 and I was dismissed.
    I was so disgusted with my law school experience that I blocked out all the information about legal education for several years and only recently I have become aware that what I have been through was not unique, that it was not due to moral or intellectual failings on my part, but that it was the product of a pattern of dishonesty that was and is systemic.
    The following article describes step by step exactly what happened to me in law school

    Of all the blogs and articles that I have read, I could not find one that contained proposals to put an end to the law school scam, to bring the guilty people to justice, or even simply to punish them through shame, or loss of personal prestige by exposing them to the public for who they really are, to compel universities to get rid of them; in other words: TO GET EVEN.

    Nando specifically mentions Richard Perna; I have had the displeasure of dealing with Richard Perna, as well as Cooley Howarth, Thomas Hagel, Allen Sultan and a few others.

    I invite people who have had experiences analogous to mine at the University of Dayton School of Law (but also at other law schools) to communicate with me, to volunteer information and to offer proposals in order to accomplish this goal.

    I have been wondering if these people can be prosecuted under the RICO Act. I understand that in order for someone to be prosecuted under the RICO Act, one must have committed at least two acts of fraud and that they have to be part of an established pattern. Does anyone have any thoughts?


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