Wednesday, October 24, 2012

Former Thomas Jefferson School of Law Official Admits to Falsifying Employment Placement Statistics

The Admission:

On October 23, 2012 at 10:00 am, Law School Transparency published a story labeled “Breaking: Ex-CSO assistant director from Thomas Jefferson admits to fraud, alleges deliberate scheme by law school.” Check out this excerpt:

“In a sworn statement, Karen Grant, a former career services assistant director at Thomas Jefferson School of Law, admits that she fabricated graduate employment outcomes for the class of 2006. Grant alleges that her fraud was part of a deliberate scheme by the law school’s administration to inflate its employment statistics. She also claims that her direct supervisor, Laura Weseley, former Director of Career Services, instructed her on multiple occasions to improperly record graduate employment outcomes and justified the scheme because “everybody does it” thus “it is no big deal.” TJSL could face sanctions from the American Bar Association as severe as losing accreditation.” [Emphasis mine]

How is that for meat and potatoes? Now you see why industry bagmen/pieces of trash Melvin Schweitzer and Gordon Jay Quist did not want the class action lawsuits against NYL$ and Thomas M. Cooley Law Sewer to go to a jury. They did not want any potentially damaging info to be accessed, if discovery were allowed.

Later on, the piece continued:

“It is the nature of the process that schools do not follow up with certain graduates before submitting data to NALP by the end of February. Schools begin collecting post-graduation job outcome data shortly before graduation and continue through the February 15 reporting deadline. Once a school knows that a graduate has a job, career services staffers will often cease follow-ups because they believe their time is better spent elsewhere. 

However, Grant alleges that the accepted practice in the TJSL career services office, at least during her tenure, went beyond cherry picking which students to follow up with. She alleges that she participated in a scheme that guaranteed that TJSL’s employment stats would be better than the reality by affirmatively ignoring new, true, and proper outcomes of graduates whose jobs were terminated or ran their course before the reporting deadline. Grant admits that TJSL submitted false information to NALP, U.S. News, and the American Bar Association as a result of her counting as employed at nine-months any student who was employed at any time after graduation regardless of whether they had a job at that time.

A look at the statistics TJSL reported to the ABA for the class of 2006 confirms that the numbers from Grant’s spreadsheet, Exhibit D of her declaration, were submitted to the ABA. These numbers were not submitted to the ABA until after her termination in September 2007.[Emphasis mine]

The Smoking Gun:

Take a look at the handwritten notes on Exhibit B, attached to Karen W. Grant’s Declaration. On the second page of this file, she attests that the meeting took place on October 16, 2006. As you can see from the document, Grant was to update the Employment Report & Salary Survey with those who were unemployed before February and found employment before the NALP deadline, but not vice versa.

This commode is a bastion of integrity, huh?!?! For $ome rea$on, the academic thieves were not concerned with temporarily employed JDs who ended up jobless at the nine month mark.

Coverage from Others:

Later on October 23, 2012, Paul Campos posted an epic entry entitled “Former assistant career services director admits to falsifying employment data, claims she was ordered to do so.” Here is the opening:

“A former assistant career services director at Thomas Jefferson School of Law has admitted in a sworn statement to fabricating graduate employment data, and claims she was ordered to do so by her boss, the director of the of the office.”

Also on the same day, Staci Zaretsky published a piece for ATL under the headline “Former Thomas Jefferson School of Law Employee Alleges Falsification of Employment Statistics.” From her conclusion:

[A]s we hear about more and more misconduct, alleged or admitted, at law schools around the country — from TJSL to Villanova to Illinois — it gets harder and harder to dismiss each as a “one bad apple” situation. And it’s rather unfortunate that the ABA seems unable or unwilling to recognize this. Perhaps the organization ought to do something more than watch from the sidelines and then punish a law school when its misdeeds come to light. Perhaps it’s time for the ABA to do something that should’ve been done a long time ago: require that all employment data be independently verified by a third party.” [Emphasis mine]

Hell, I'm surprised the pigs at TJ$L did not claim that this was an "error."

Conclusion: The sources above share one common thinking error: they believe that the ABA will or should do something to stem this conduct. With their track record, nothing indicates that the American Bar Association cockroaches will intervene. If they do get involved, you can chalk that up to public relations, i.e. “Look! We’re doing something to remedy this situation!”

Remember that law equals politics. For instance, you will occasionally see senators and “representatives” dress down morally bankrupt, financial criminals known as CEOs in committee hearings. However, this is a mere charade. The dogs are engaging in mere theater, with their masters. After the performance, the council may recommend future study - and the rats might even issue a report on the findings months later. In the meantime, everything returns to normal. The big-ass campaign checks continue to be written and cashed. In the end, an audit of the toilets’ figures should be conducted by an entirely independent agency or firm. However, the ABA will not broach the subject.


  1. "Everybody does it." There, at least, Weseley, was probably telling the truth.

    The thing that surprises me here is the failure of plausible deniability. High level administrators usually know to insolate themselves from responsibility by "hinting" that they want the numbers fudged, rather than directly instructing subordinates to do so.

    1. woooooord! Weseley fails marketing 101.

  2. Plausible deniability is the craft of the corrupt. High level administrators usually give hints. They infer, not outright say what they want to their underlings. Geez, even TJSL's administrators are TTTT.

  3. This story does not surprise me in the very least. Law schools have been getting away with this kind of "juking" the employment stats for DECADES. Even the T-14 schools are guilty of this kind of shameful conduct. For example, Duke reported 100% employment two years ago for the Class of 2010. Yet, they have a "bridge to practice" program which they pay for grads to work for free at other firms or organizations. The program also served Duke law to "bridge" its employment stats to 100%. TTTs are notorious for abusing the employment stats. The black gowned clowns known as Quist and Schweitzer denied the plaintiffs the chance to uncover this dispicable conduct at other TTTs.

    I suspect TJSL will try to say Ms. Grant is a disgruntled employee who was fired and this is her way of lashing out. Believe me, Ms. Grant would have sued the school for wrongful termination if that had been the case. If the ABA does not revoke TJSL's charter, then it too will be exposed as being a complicit partner in perpetuating the fraud that law schools have been engaging in for DECADES.

  4. What I'm wondering is how they calculated salary data, if indeed they fabricated the number of employed students? At the school I attended, the website advertised a percentage of students employed after 9 months, as well as average salaries. Did TJSL pull a figure out of thin air? It'll be interesting to see if this story develops or if it gets swept under the rug somehow.

  5. If TJSL collapses, I've got dibs on the largest office....which I will use for my incredibly sleazy private investigation company, Magnum/Gunn.

    I just need a bimbo secretary, a list of greasy clients, a former cop on the edge, and a few Colt .45s (the drink and the gun) and I'm set.

  6. Gotdamn. I'da done thought mah industreh was fucked up. Wit' the burger boys dropping meat on da floor 'n still servin' dat shit t' customers. 'N wit' muthafuckas pretendin' dat they be usin' real 'gredients like real tomaters 'n fresh cut lettuce. That their fuckin' meat 'n shit is sliced t' perfection in da back of da res'raunt. Guess how often low paid mothafuckas pee in the coffee pot or be flickin' they boogers in yer sandwich or pizza. That there's da truth.

    'N I've done seen mah share of muthafuckaz payin' off county health inspecters in mah day. (One time I had'sta go down on a female inspector 'cause of some fucker in Mobile, Alabama couldn't keeps da mice outta da fuckin' kitchen. 'N get dis. Da lady didn' even bother washin' her asshole o' her snatch either. How fucked up is dat?)

    I mean everyone in da fast food bizness does it. So it shouldn't be a big fuckin' deal. In my book, dat's just da cost a doin' bidness. But higher ed is a whole 'nother story.

  7. "Everybody does it..."

    Remember what your mother said, "Well, if all of the other kids are jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge, are you going to do it, too?"

    My mother said that, anyway.

  8. I remember when I used to watch the "Sopranos," there was that one season where Tony's crew were getting paid for "no-show" jobs. It seems like law schools created the concept of "no-show" jobs by creating positions and getting credit for them but in reality, these positions never existed.

  9. Law schools are run by criminal parasites.

    1. Well, they make lawyers. What did you expect?

  10. I went to law school and graduated (Ohio St.) I left a good paying and secure job to go to law school. My employer even provided me with free housing. In a great neighborhood no less.

    I actually wanted to do some good in the world. I didn't go in this for the money. I wanted to be a public defender. Well, average grades put that out of reach. I took out student loans and now I make less than I did 12 years ago. Do not make the same choice I did. Especially if you have a spouse or kids. Or a job that's better than most.


    On September 8, 2009, Debra Cassens Weiss authored an ABA Journal article entitled “North Dakota Law Dean Says U.S. News Info on Clerkships Is Wrong.” Take a moment to read the following lengthy excerpt:

    "Dean Kathryn Rand told the ABA Journal that she learned of the new ranking on Friday afternoon when her director of career services sent her the online link. The clerkship list said North Dakota placed 28 percent of its 2007 grads in all judicial clerkships, and 25 percent in federal Article III clerkships.

    Actually, the law school did not place any students in Article III clerkships in 2007, Rand said. The 28 percent figure for all judicial clerkships is correct, however, “and not an anomaly at all.”

    North Dakota was not the only surprise on the U.S. News list of top judicial clerkship feeder law schools. The University of Wyoming was No. 5 and the University of St. Thomas at No. 6. All are tier 3 law schools on U.S. News’ overall list.

    “I don’t know exactly what happened with the misinformation being reported in the U.S. News survey,” Rand told the ABA Journal. “I understand that we weren’t the only school that had misinformation reported.” Rand said she learned of other errors when she called U.S. News.

    Rand did not identify which schools were wrongly placed on the list. But Robert Morse, director of data research for U.S. News, told the ABA Journal that Western New England College School of Law, ranked 15th, has also contacted him to report an error. He invites other schools identifying mistakes to contact him, and says the results will be corrected.

    Western New England associate dean for external affairs Bill Childs later wrote on Western New England College School of Law Blawg: "We discovered that we made an entirely inadvertent error, reporting our overall clerkship employment rate (i.e., the percentage of our employed recent graduates who were working in any judicial clerkship) as being the same as our federal Article III clerkship rate."

    The University of St. Thomas law school has also come forward, issuing a statement by Dean Thomas Mengler saying its clerkship information is wrong. “Our data as provided to U.S. News and World Report is incorrect, and we are working with U.S. News to fix this error,” Mengler said.

    The schools reported the clerkship figures in response to a U.S. News questionnaire, according to Morse. Since law school officials supplied the data, they shouldn't imply that U.S. News got the figures without their knowledge, he said.”

    Isn’t it odd how these “inadvertent errors” ALWAYS favor the law schools?!?! That is uncanny! For $ome rea$on, the administrator pigs at these ABA-accredited trash pits are unable to comprehend the difference between state and federal court clerkships. Keep in mind that these swine are typically armed with undergrad and law degrees from elite academic institutions. I’ll bet that these bastards don’t make such mistakes when they purchase luxury sedans – or when deciding on the best private school for their kids.

  12. There is certainly a double standard going on here. If you are a law student or lawyer and are caught cheating or stealing, the inadvertent error defense is futile. However, when law schools use it, the allegations of wrongdoing melt away faster than a snowball in hell.

  13. Look at it this way:

    The US is so deep in debt now. So how can the student loan money continue to flow into higher ed unabated?

    Like with the housing bubble, it all just seemed to burst overnight, and maybe that is how it will all happen.

  14. The ABA is a whore for law schools.

  15. Hey, nando, you read the motion for sanctions yet? If true, it looks awful for TJLS. Apparently they've slipped up stuff in discovery rather badly.

  16. Does anyone know how John Koch is? I only ask b/c his blog has been taken down.

  17. Law schools are run for the benefit of the law professors. They don't put the students first. They just want to make sure that they keep making $150K per year for easy work. Fuck the students is their mantra.

  18. And U.S. News continues to push their nonsense...

  19. Painterguy is OK. The JD is a pun as in JD for juris dr and my real initials. I took the blog down because I kept getting some very hostile comments even after I asked the commenters to quit it.

    And those commenters kept visiting anyway based on my analytics.

    I live in my parents house, and I have to consider them as well, and a while back there was a strange call to the house, and whoever it was spoke with my father and asked for me and then my father asked later on if the strange caller was because of the blogging and I honestly did not know.

    That is one of the drawbacks to not being anon.

    BTW, my father was with me when I did the NPR interview last summer with Cryn.

    As far as I go, Nando is the heart of the scamblog movement, and I hope that when the time comes, ILSS will give Nando all the credit Nando and the other original scamblogs deserve.


    JD Koch (JD Painterguy)

  20. John Koch? Really? I thought you were more of a pussy then a dick. No one reads your blog. You have no credibility at all until you pass the bar.

    1. So when did you pass, mister Internet tough guy?

  21. I guess Albert Einstein had no credibility either because he never passed a bar exam.

    1. Did Einstein go to law school and fail multiple times and then bitch about his school loans? Are you serious with that comparison?

  22. Oct 26th, @6:23PM's comment is what I am talking about. It is probably the guy from Roselle Park New Jersey.

    But I blogged for two years and about law school and the bar exam over and over and over, and I don't want to go over that ground again for newcomers and/or people like @6:23PM.

    Nor do I want anon people like that following a blog of mine or calling the house or maybe even showing up at my door and shooting me. Who knows what they are capable of?

    I might troll sarcastically on the Campos blog and post off topic stuff and little rhyming jingles etc, and just to annoy some of the very dry and analytical people there, but I am never abusive or threatening to anyone.

    For instance, some of Mr. Infinity's postings last summer were borderline criminal.


  23. @ 11:16 pm,

    I looked up my blog analytics from last night, and the comment from 6:23 pm did come from Roselle Park, New Jersey. The troll is clearly obsessed with you.

    Here is another example of an ABA-accredited toilet engaging in fraud. Plus, you will note that the American Bar Association is not interested in fixing this mess.

    On February 6, 2011, the Chronicle of Higher Education published a piece by Katherine Mangan, under the headline "Villanova U. Reveals Its Law School Gave False Reports of GPA's and Test Scores." Check out this epic opening:

    "Villanova University officials announced on Friday that unidentified employees of its law school knowingly reported inaccurate, and presumably inflated, grade-point averages and admission-test scores to the American Bar Association in years before 2010, a scheme that could have affected where it fell in national rankings.

    In a written statement sent to alumni of the Pennsylvania law school, its dean, John Y. Gotanda, said the inaccuracies were reported to him on January 20 by a law-school committee that was evaluating academic-support programs.

    Mr. Gotanda, who became dean on January 1, said the university immediately began an internal investigation and hired a national law firm to conduct an audit.

    "The internal investigation and audit findings showed that the inaccuracies were knowingly reported to the ABA by individuals at VLS," Mr. Gotanda wrote in the letter to alumni, a condensed version of which was released to the entire university. "Accordingly, the university will hold those responsible accountable for their actions."

    Notice how the dean still referred to this DELIBERATE CONDUCT as "inaccuracies." That reveals plenty about the law school pigs' mentality and complete lack of integrity. The term inaccurate connotes an error or mistake. Vanillanova’s employees engaged in manipulation and fraud - in order to boost their overall USN&WR ranking! These cockroaches sought to impress and persuade potential students to attend their dung heap, with this falsified data.

    Take a look at this portion, near the conclusion of the article:

    "Hulett H. (Bucky) Askew, the ABA's consultant on legal education, said on Friday that Mr. Gotanda had notified him about the problem and that they had held several conversations about how the university was handling it.

    Mr. Askew said the ABA's confidentiality policies prevented him from discussing the case, but said of the dean, "He has handled this in a very responsible and forthcoming way."

    As you can see, the criminal cartel known as the American Bar Association does not even get involved in cases when the law schools - supposed "professional schools" and "institutions of higher learning" - engage in deliberate schemes to deceive prospective students and the public. Apparently, the sewer rats feel that the commodes are doing a great job of policing themselves. Why would these pieces of trash allow truly independent auditors to review the numbers published by all of their member schools?!?!

    1. 623 and im not in nj. Your blog is excellent but dont lie or else get a better locator. I am not obsessed with jd painter but that moron needs to be called out every time he posts something as he thinks people care what he says and am i the only one that thinks his inability to pass the bar makes any bitching he does meaningless? I doubt it.

  24. 9:59 am,

    Don't ever accuse me of lying. At least you appreciate excellence. According to my site locator, there was a comment posted at 6:23 pm, from a user in New Jersey. Under that user's visit, a comment was made on this specific entry. I should have posted the IP address, with identifying info. I am now using a new site that many have raved about. It turns out that StatCounter is garbage. For instance, I cannot locate your new IP, for your recent remarks.

    In the end, Painter is the one facing a student debt bill of more than $300K. His posts are typically off-topic. However, TTTTouro allowed a student with a GPA under 2.0 to continue the journey. John furnished a copy of his transcript, and he was honest about loading up on easy classes to boost his overall grades. The fact that ABA-accredited toilets provide such courses shows conclusively that these in$TTTiTTTuTTTion$ are not professional schools.

    1. And if they hadn't let him continue, would he then blame them for denying him the "opportunity" to pursue a legal career?

      He might not have had as much debt, but I think he said it was only $65-70K when he graduated - hardly an insurmountable burden. He could have joined the Army and paid it off in a few years. Sounds to me like the guy went on "strike" and let it grow to such a colossal amount. I wonder, did he pay even a single dollar on that debt last month? I seriously doubt it.

    2. Nando again your blog is excellent but i will accuse you again of lying or having a faulty locater. As 623 and 959 let me tell you i am in the south nowhere near nj and have not even been in nj for 20 years.

      Disagree with my bashing of jd but dont lie to your readers but saying im some jd obsessed dude from nj. Many people cant stand his whiny posts.

    3. 519 is absolutely correct. Was touro supposed to pass the bar for him too? His failure made a tough but manageable debt for someone with a license into a monstrosity of his own creation. These law schools no doubt lie about so much but when someone bashing them cant pass the bar and their failings create an even bigger debt there is no sympathy. Law can be as lucrative as it is risky and if you cant pass the bar you deserve what you get especially when you can take the test over and over.

    4. So Nando all this time you have been posting commenters ip addresses who disagree with you its been with a locator that you call garbage? So in otherwords you cant say where anyone is posting from right? Thats not lying or anything is it?

    5. To the cockroach who posted at 12:08, 12:16 and 12:21 pm,

      Learn how to read, bitch. With those comprehension "skills," you will end up paying full tuition at a fourth tier trash heap. I recently started using StatCounter. I specifically mentioned that in my prior comment. Within one week, I figured out that it was a poor tracker. For nearly three years, I have relied on a different locator.

  25. I remember meeting a Touro Law Grad and old classmate taking the NY Bar Exam for the 8th time. That means he spent three years in Law School and four years trying to get started working as a lawyer for a total of seven years.

    I also remember one student that took his entire first year over under a take your first year over option at Touro. This is all factual and true.

    I had a few friends in law school during my first year at Touro and we were all in a study group. Two of my friends were from Trinidad. One of them did not get through the first year and was either kicked out or dropped out. The second man from Trinidad went on to graduate and become a lawyer. I don't know if he stayed in law or ended up going back to his old job with the city.

    Another friend in our study group was Jewish and seemed like he was having a nervous breakdown, and he dropped out after his first year.

    A fourth member of the study group was Orthodox Jewish and also very unhappy about law school in general and his grades were poor and he dropped out after the first year.

    Two of the other guys in my study group were white caucasian Catholics like me, and they both passed the bar and I guess they made it in law, but we all lost contact with each other after law school.

    In my second year I had an entirely new set of friends.

    One of them was a former police officer and is now with the FBI I think. Another started his own practice.

    And speaking of former police officers or current police officers going to law school, perhaps part time or at night: That is a good topic to explore, for those students seemed to have somewhwere to go after law school careerwise within the police department or government.


  26. There were also a lot of students at Touro from New Jersey and i wondered why that was.

    I later learned that they most likely had jobs that were set up in family owned firms, and could not get into an ABA accredited law school in New Jersey, or into a higher ranked law school in New York.

    But Touro fit the bill because after all it was ABA accredited, and if one had a job set up with a family firm, a law degree is a law degree is a law degree.

    In addition, at my law school graduation for Touro at Avery Fisher Hall, Lincoln Center, NYCity, I remember quite a number of the grads being greeted on stage by a family member who was either a county or state politician, or a a partner of a law firm, or a judge.

    The name of the family member/Judge/Politician/Law Firm partner was read aloud and the graduate walked on stage and was greeted by the family member.

    And for the very first time I realized that some of my classmates had jobs waiting for them already upon graduation.

    In addition, the late Bernard Lander spoke at my Touro Law School graduation, and I have an old video tape of that.

    Elie Mystal had a post a while back about Lander.

    Oh, I don't know, I just think that kids ought to hear this kind of stuff. I wish I had heard stuff like this before I took the plunge and enrolled in a lower tier law school.

    And what harm does it do? Do my memoirs merit being called a pussy or a dick or a victim or a failure?

    If I can help someone to navigate the snake pit of law school in the lower tiers, or maybe even save them from going down a very long wrong turn or path, then maybe my stories serve some good, just as Nando's warnings do.

    Keep in mind that ILSS is from a source that is of a very different nature or position that TTR or me or a lot of the other scamblogs.

    Keep that in mind.

  27. I have been a supporter of this blog and its author almost since TTR began. I may not know Nando personally but he is a persistent and committed person. I understand his use of pictures featuring feces, pigs, roaches and toilets. Some may see his methods as puerile or crass. Yet, what these law schools are doing is much more pernicious than most crimes (e.g., robbery, rape, assault) in that the victim (law student/grad) will feel the effect of the scam for decades in his/her life. I hope Nando continues his crusade and perhaps one day, he may get an editor and put these blog entries together into a book.

    As for JD Painter, I really feel for him. He has a soul crushing debt that he will never payback unless he hits the lotto. However, others have suggested that he relocate to Central or South America where he will fare better. John, I realize it is difficult to pick up and go to a strange new place but there really isn't anything here for you except living a life of anxiety and hopelessness.

    To add to what the prior commenter stated, I too have heard many atrocious stories about Touro. I actually know a couple of former cops who went to Touro. They are decent people but they probably would not have gotten into a decent ABA school. Many Touro grads either stay in Long Island or go solo. They go solo and wind up internet cautionary tales like that Jewish kid who was crucified by the interwebs for posting a Facebook status after allegedly bungling up a case.

    These law schools sell a phony dream. The dream has been visualized by most college students thanks to Hollywood's glamorization of the legal profession. I know hundreds of lawyers as I have been practicing for decades. In all my conversations (over dinner, bbqs, cocktails, drinks, etc.) only 3 lawyers I know say they are truly happy being lawyers (to be fair, one is a judge, one is a partner at a small boutique firm and the other is a trial court administrator). The other attorneys are unhappy and mostly miserable. The profession is getting worse. It is harder to practice law today than it was 20 years ago. And the payoff is less. Law school is not worth it, hasn't been for at least 10 years. Anyone who goes to law school these days is severely mentally handicapped.

    1. "However, others have suggested that he relocate to Central or South America where he will fare better."

      I never said Mexico, Panama, or Brazil; I did say Canada or possibly Britain. I suggested these places because English is spoken there and he seems to be monolingual....though he could flee to Guyana (English is the official language.) I do agree that he would do better elsewhere.

  28. Here is one very slim way out of American Stuent Loan Debt:

    Watch it all, and Scream your lungs out:

  29. @5:19PM

    You sound young and don't know what you are talking about.

    It took me a year to find a job after law school and it was in sales and it paid 36K.

    I had an apartment and a car payment and all other living and commuting expenses.

    And four years later I was still not able to pass the bar exam.

    And I applied for non legal jobs as well: Compliance jobs, Manager of Burger King, Manager of MacDonalds, Insurance claims jobs, Insurance Underwriting jobs, general "Administrative" jobs, a job with an Oil Refinery, Cablevision, The Pall Corporation, State Farm, AIG, Local Hospital administrative jobs, local University administrative jobs (LIU, Hofstra, SUNY) in reply to the online postings, bank teller jobs, jobs out of state, jobs in NY city that were posted in the NY Times classifieds or on or on Careerbuilder, a job as a butler, a counter sales job with a local lumber company, a Sherwin Williams Paint store manager job, building and school custodial jobs, retail store jobs at the Tanger Mall, paralegal jobs and with paralegal placement agencys that I found online (even though some of those postings said "no JD's need apply" in print), executive search placement agency or headhunter posted jobs, jobs posted on "The Ladders" online.

    Let me see, where else......I registered with temp agencys, I tried networking with other lawyers (one told me to get a job in insurance claims), with law firm partners (one senior lawyer told me to try and convincce a law firm that I could bring in clients) and on and on

    I used to have file folders year by year with all of my rejection letters, and some were dictated letters on company letterhead from the CEO or president of a Corporation in reply to my sending my resume and cover letter unsolicited to said CEO or President.

    My whole point is that I had the JD on my resume for all of the above applications or inquiries for the above positions, and it was only until I took the JD off that I was able to get a job selling P&C insurance, and when I told the owners of the Insurance Agency that I had a JD a couple of months into the job they lookat at me like I had two heads and were very strange to me after that point.

    Oh let me think and I will list more of the places that applied for work, such as the Bus Company, the Long Island Railroad, even the IRS (I met the IRS recruiter at a job fair that I went to at my old College)

    And you get me there when you say I should have gone into the Army or maybe even the police force. That might have done the trick, but as for the Army, I was married, and I think there was a war in Iraq going on.

    Oh hell, I went over all of this in the last two years of blogging, but some newbie is going to always come along and have to hear it all over again I guess.

    And now I am up again all night and sleepless, and I want to enjoy an old B grade movie that is on TCM. It is called "Tormented" (1960) and the premise is: A Jazz pianist is haunted by his ex-lover's crawling hand and floating head."


    1. Um, SO? There are a lot of married people in the Army. Starting in 2003, one or two of them might have even gone to Iraq. And if the idea of Iraq was really that unacceptable to you, you could've joined the USAF or the Navy instead. Anyone in the military who doesn't have kids can pretty much save his entire salary if he's willing to go without luxuries. What's more, if you had joined 15 years ago, you'd now be 3/4 of the way to a lifetime retirement package.

      P.S. I've seen that movie. It blows. Why don't you do something productive for a change and find out which federal jobs would discharge your ENTIRE student debt after 10 years of service?

  30. @2:15AM said:

    "find out which federal jobs would discharge your ENTIRE student debt after 10 years of service?"

    That's a new one. Show me the proof of that.

    And it wasn't such a bad movie. Even the very worst movies sometimes have memorable scenes, and that is what a movie is after all. A lot of scenes put together. And the actor that played the Jazz pianist was also in "All About Eve" with Bette Davis.

    And sometimes the very best of actors appear in clinkers. i.e. Martin Balsam was in Death Wish 3 which is probably one of the most hysterical clinkers in cinematic history :)

    In the meantime there is a big storm coming. I waited on line with my father this morning at Sears for a chance to get a generator from a new shipment.

    But there were only 34 on the truck and available and we were 37th or 38th or so on line.

    Only time will tell if the generator is really needed for what they are calling "Frankenstorm" here on Long Island, which is a reference to the storm coinciding with Oct 31.

    It doesn;t really matter, but note that I did not reply to you by calling you a cunt or a dick or a failure or lazy or stupid or dumb or an idiot or a jerk or a fool or a loser or a victim :)

  31. Also @2:15PM

    There is something a wee bit unsettling about the thought of suddenly partaking of everlasting glory with my Maker in the afterlife after getting a fifty caliber round clean through the head that acts as a very trivial deterrent to volunteering for the army.

    And as for the air force or the navy? Well, you got me there. In the thick of things I had always thought the JD and student debt would open the doors for a good civilian job and not lead me into the service after age 30.

    BTW, and speaking of being in the Navy and "safe" in a harbor, or bein in the air force and among war planes "safe" at an airbase (as you seem to imply) the actor Martin Balsam was also in the 1970 movie that mildly dealt with that theme: Torah, Tora, Tora:


    1. Hm, why don't I take 3 seconds to look that up for you ... done.

      You're welcome.

      And only ten percent of the ARMY (infantry, cavalry, military police, a few others) go on the dangerous missions in Iraq. The rest do clerical, maintenance, or staff work on secure bases in Iraq. This percentage is even lower for the USAF and Navy.

      If I was in your position, I'd have that debt licked in ten years - maybe even sooner. YOU, on the other hand - LOL, in ten years, you'll be writing poems about student loan debt, and that IOU of yours will bealso king on a cool million. THAT's the difference between you and me. Hope you enjoyed your movie.

    2. Correction: your IOU will be *knocking on* a cool million.

      P.S. If it makes you feel better, you can call me a loser all you want - I don't mind at all. I paid off my student loans 4 years after I graduated, and have saved up a respectable sum since then. I now have more money in my bank account than I ever owed the lenders. If that makes me a loser, I sure wish I could see how WINNING felt.

    3. Well said 1213. Jd is a typical liberal. Its everyone elses fault for his failings. We all face adversity and jds way of handling it if everyone did the same thing our country would be like Greece. If you cant pass the bar i dont want to hear any excuses about your law school being shit or that you cantbpay back a debt. Most people i respect would have adjusted and done whatever they could to pay it down. Law is not the only way to make money.

    4. @1234,

      Yep. Any minute now, he'll probably post 7 or 8 excuses about how that loan cancellation program supposedly doesn't "apply" to him - yet another way I am different from him. If he gives up that quickly, can he really blame all those employers for refusing to hire him?

    5. "There is something a wee bit unsettling about the thought of suddenly partaking of everlasting glory with my Maker in the afterlife after getting a fifty caliber round clean through the head that acts as a very trivial deterrent to volunteering for the army."

      For someone who threatens to commit "suicide" every time he doesn't get his way, you seem to be MIGHTY scared of dying. Or maybe not. Maybe you are just afraid that people in the Army might actually put you to work for once in your life.

  32. @12:26PM

    Talk is cheap. Let me see your entire financial history after law school and prove you are the resourceful buckaroo and great American tale of success that you claim to be.

    And then I will thank you for letting me count all of your money.

    And public service loan forgiveness does not apply. I only got into the WDFord program after default, which triggered an enormous financial penalty.

    And to tell someone to join the military and to guarantee it is "safe" is one helluva thing to say :)

    I know the media hardly ever mentions what is going on, but you can go to youtube and google: Iraq War

    And to say I am a liberal is kind of a stretch. I don't know why that person keeps saying that.

    1. Yes, talk IS cheap - and you seem to be made of it entirely. The problem here is that you are a whiner and excuse-maker. You don't WANT to spend ten years making your debt go away. It's far easier to just complain. I'll bet that if God came down from heaven and told you that He would personally kill you unless that debt was paid off by 2022, you'd find a way to make it happen. Then again, maybe you wouldn't.

      And LOL, you want to "count" the money in my bank account? Um, how? Should I, like, buy you a plane ticket so you can come to my town or something? It's not actually that important to me that I convince you.

      I'm not afraid that YOU will commit suicide, but I must say that I am rather concerned about your parents offing themselves. They must feel like complete failures every time they come downstairs in the morning and see you asleep, or watching TCM. I know I would. Is it possible to LITERALLY die of shame?

  33. Also, the military only pays a percentage of the debt, and not much at that. I know someone that is in the Army and that is what I was told.

    1. Not so - any federal job will pay all of it off after 10 years.

  34. See kids, the best way to get free legal advice and/or pick a lawyer's brians is to contradict him and keep telling him or her they are wrong.

    Then, if the lawyer has a big ego, like @12:26 etc. he will start telling you everything he knows about, for example, public service loan forgiveness :)

    I have also learned some interesting things on ILSS by putting out innocent questions and sounding naive, and sure enough, a anon blowhard will chime in with some free legal advice or better yet, something about the inner workings of law school administration or whatever :)

    Oh I'm just kidding. Maybe. But when I say I am joking I am not not not joking :)

    1. Why are you calling them "kids?" Do they still live with their parents, too?

      You say that you've "learned some interesting things?" I don't think you've learned anything. I just handed you a roadmap for getting out of debt. You tore it up and threw the pieces back at me. Pretty hard to feel sorry for you. Let go of your pride and get a federal job. Or keep whining and making excuses. Your call.

  35. Isn't Public Service Loan Forgiveness kind of discriminatory and unfair in favor of public service employees?

    As if for instance some public school teachers make six figures and are tenured and don't get enough other perks already?

    And suppose someone cannot find a public service job?

    And doesn't the program have the potential to kind of force or coerce someone to take a potentially low paying public service job with the carrot of student loan forgiveness dangled?

    And if one payment is late over 10 years it seems to disqualify the borrower.

    1. Only 4 excuses? Hm, and I had predicted 7 or 8.

      If public school teachers are making "six figures" and all those perks, then why don't you become one? And doesn't that contradict excuse #3 about being "coerced into a low paying public service job?"

  36. A plane to Wisconsin?

    And thanks for the free legal advice :)

    I threw the pieces back in your beady eyed, slack-jawed, sallow, hypocritial and sanctimonious Public Service touting face so as to probe what you are really all about, and now I think I know.

    You are a shill for the financial industry. And also a very jealous, older woman who is actually in love with me and doesn't know how to say it.

    Oh yes it is all about you. And you want, and you want. And you need and you need. And you say: "Do as I do", and you want to hold a feeble candle in the midst of what you think is the financial ignorance that we all live in, and you want to lead us all in a charity walk towards the bright, sunlit uplands of coerced public service in the new age of American DEBT, which is now in the 16 trillion range. (A very tidy sum :)

    But did you ever once in your life stop and think. EVER ONCE! Ever once did you ever stop and think, and in your life, that other people besides yourself have wants, and that other people besides yourself have needs too?

    Oh no, you will recline on your divan of privelege as the warm summer breeze of financial security tickles the lashes of your closed eyes and fancy, and you will daydream and imagine that all situated not as yourself should be sent overseas to fight in a foreign war of some sort as a form of penance for ever thinking that higher ed would lead to a better paying job someday.

    But actually I never knew about the whole Public Service thing, and about how it is the greatest thing that was left on the cutting room floor when the book of Genesis was wrote-did and had gone through it's final editing, until you came along. What took you?

    And so you do admit that public school teachers make six figures?

    Since when? Not in Wisconsin.

    BTW, I might insult people in a lot of ways, but I would never call another person a failure, and I don't think Nando would ever be that cruel either.

    And that is the worst part of your flawed, basic nature and character, because you do cross that line of cruelty, and are first in line to cast the very first stone at all of those less successful than yourself, and with a right good will.

    As Tony Robbins says, there are no failures, only potential winners.


    The foregoing is all creative writing and satire BTW, and partakes less of madness than a desire to rankle a smug and hypocritical character.

    And I am going to get back to a very polished and Great British actor, George Sanders, co-starring with Wendy Barrie in a 1941 movie on TCM.

    1. Haha, I'm in stitches after reading that primal squeak of yours.

      I believe YOU were the one who claimed schoolteachers make six-figure salaries and perks. I simply said that if your statement is true, you should become a teacher and reap the supposed rewards. I'm sure there are plenty of kids who could USE a good lesson or two on how to give up and cry all day. You could probably connect with them, too; like you, they live with their parents.

      A feeble candle? I don't think a bonfire would put a dent in the darkness of YOUR financial ignorance.

      Well, I guess you'd better get back to your movies; we wouldn't want your parents' contribution to the cable company to go to waste, and those movies aren't going to watch themselves. Maybe all three of you can sit down together and watch "The Price is Right" - provided, of course, that THEY aren't at work. God forbid you should spend that time trying to get out of debt or anything.

      P.S. I don't know where this "Wisconsin" stuff comes from, but I'm nowhere near there. Without posting my exact location, I will simply wish you Aloha and good day.

  37. Here is a comment from ILSS:

    "the main problem with that plan is that there are very few public sevice jobs available, esp. for recent grads with little or no experience. Most state and local governments are broke, and have cut back their numbers of such positions severely, or left them unfilled. If a position is open, there will be lawyers with 10+ years of experience applying for them.

    As others have noted, public service jobs used to be the "consolation prize" for those who could not get higher-paying jobs with firms. Now they are considered very desirable, since they offer relative job security, opportunity for ten year IBR, and often decent benefits (some even offer pensions--remember those?)"

    1. LOL, excuse #5. Of course, the 10-year debt cancellation applies to non-attorney jobs, too. If you really think there's a shortage of overpaid government workers in America, then it's no wonder you thought Touro sounded like a good investment.


    Elie Mystal published a piece labeled "Illinois Restates Its Numbers: The Deception is Deeper Than We Thought." Take a look at this opening:

    "We mentioned last night that the University of Illinois College of Law has had to restate the LSAT scores and GPAs of its admitted students for the last three years. If you've been following the story, you know that Illinois Law had previously admitted that it misstated admissions data for a year.

    I haven't made that big of a deal about this new restatement because it just doesn't surprise me: if a school lied once, it probably lied many, many times.

    Also, I mean, what are we really learning here? That Illinois Law could have higher standards for admitting students? Every law school could. This is news?

    But, some of you really want to talk about how Illinois has been lying all this time. It's like some of you think that the ABA is actually going to do something to punish Illinois...

    I don't expect the toothless American Bar Association to punish Illinois in any significant manner."

    ABA-accredited schools continue to lie, in an attempt to attract more students/victims. Of course, ball-less shills such as ethically-challenged Jack Marshall feel that the students and recent grads are at fault – for the current state of the legal market. Check out Mystal's concluding remarks:

    "Here's the thing. Do you guys really think that the only people who are doing this are Illinois and Villanova? Do you really think that the ABA - an organization that won't force law schools to be accurate about graduate outcomes - has the stomach to find the truth about incoming classes?

    Do you think that law schools that have become so comfortable playing fast and loose with the numbers even recognize that is wrong to misstate statistics?

    I don't know, pile on Illinois if you want to. But the ABA is an organization that isn't committed to making schools tell the truth, so I think the intelligent assumption is that all law schools are lying or inflating their statistics in some way."

    Mystal recognizes that the cartel is not going to enact meaningful change. At the most, the ABA pigs and cockroaches will hand out nominal punishments. However, they will only do so, in order to make sure that an outside body does not take over accreditation of American law schools.


    On July 24, 2012, Elie Mystal posted an ATL entry entitled "University of Illinois Law School Fined and Censured For Inflated LSAT Scandal."

    “Well, it’s not like the Penn State sanctions. But it’s not like the University of Illinois College of Law was covering up a Jerry Sandusky. The school was inflating the LSAT scores it reported to the American Bar Association.

    Today, the ABA fined Illinois Law $250,000. The ABA also censured the law school.

    The Chicago Tribune reports that this is the first time the ABA has fined a law school for inaccurate consumer information. I guess that’s a step in the right direction. Still, considering the average salary for an Illinois College of Law full professor is $194,624, it’s hard to see the fine meaning very much to the school’s operations…

    To bring you up to speed, Illinois has already admitted their wrongdoing. They’ve just maintained that the false LSAT score reports were the actions of one lone administrator.”

    Yes, the commode is going to feel the pinch of that pathetic fine. Hell, attorneys who miss a deadline – regardless of circumstances - face more severe punishment. Take a moment to read the author’s conclusion:

    “Sports fans will know that if we were talking about football, this finding would be the dreaded “lack of institutional control” charge. But we already know that the NCAA polices college athletics much more seriously than the ABA polices law school behavior. These punishments feel weak in the context of the Illinois scandal:

    It is the first time the American Bar Association has fined a university for reporting inaccurate consumer data, according to an ABA spokesman.

    The sanctions also require that the law school post a copy of the censure in prominent spots on its web site and hire a compliance monitor for the next two years to monitor the school’s admissions process and data reporting:

    As if prospective law students care what’s on a website. We know that potential students care about a school’s U.S. News rank, and that’s why Illinois manipulated their LSAT statistics in the first place.

    “I’m sure Illinois will be eager to put this scandal behind them, but it’s not clear that these punishments will serve as any kind of deterrent to the next school that wants to try to game the rankings.”

    Again, these measures amount to NOTHING MORE than mere window dressing, i.e. this is for public consumption. The criminal organization known as the American Bar Association is “showing” everyone that it takes this conduct seriously. Remember, brand new lawyers are held to a MUCH higher standard of ethics than the “institutions of higher learning” that take their money and pump them out in mass numbers. What an honorable "profession," right?!?!


Web Analytics