Friday, January 11, 2013

Other Legal “Educators” Admit That There Are Too Many Damn Law Schools


Law Dean at UC Hastings Refers to Law Schools as Diploma Mills:

http://careerblog.law360.com/blog/2012/10/law-schools-must-end-lawyer-glut-dean.html

On October 10, 2012, an entry labeled “Law Schools Must End Lawyer Glut: Dean” was published on Law360 Career Blog. Check out this opening:

“Law schools cannot continue to be diploma mills, and must make drastic and permanent cuts to class sizes, argues Frank H. Wu, dean of UC Hastings College of the Law.

There are more attorneys and law students in the U.S. than worthwhile jobs, and law schools need to stop promoting the illusion that an expensive J.D. is a ticket to a rewarding career, Wu wrote for Huffington Post.

"Young people feel they have been sold on a false promise. They are not wrong."

And it’s a mistake to believe that an improved economy will reshape the legal market. Law firms are raking in record profits now that they are doing more work with fewer people and lowering overhead. Boomtimes or not, there won’t be adequate jobs for the glut of lawyers, Wu said.” [Emphasis in original]

Of course, Wu then went on to claim that law school is not a scam. However, the academic is making progress. On April 22, 2009, Frank Wu wrote a garbage piece for US “News” & World Report, with the idiotic header “Why Law School Is for Everyone.” He concluded that tripe with the following nonsense:

“There is no typical law student. As many law students matriculate straight from college as enter after having taken a break in their formal education. Some have aspired to be advocates since they were children and became determined to right the wrongs they had witnessed; others happened to do well on the LSAT taken on a whim.

Whether they ever appear in court or draft a will, they will have been well served by learning how to stand up and speak out. They have been inspired by a sense of civil rights as well as civic responsibilities. They are ready to become leaders.”

You don’t need to incur an additional $100K+ in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt, in order to speak up, Frank.

Tenured UCLA “Law Professor” Clearly States “There Are Too Many Law Schools”:

http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2009/09/too-many-law-schools-and-too-many-lawyers.html

Back on September 3, 2009, Stephen Bainbridge posted a blog entry entitled “Too many law schools and too many lawyers.”  Read the following excerpt:

“If law in fact is a mature industry, we face a problem of systemic oversupply. The rate at which demand for new lawyers grows has permanently leveled off. Economic recovery will help, but it will not change the fundamental structural changes in the market for lawyers.

Unfortunately, the growth in the number of law schools and size of entering classes at many law schools was premised on the assumption that the demand for lawyers would continue to rise at the high rate characteristic of the period, say, 1960-1990. Because that growth rate was artificially high due to the exogenous shocks of the preceding decades, the number of law schools and large law school class sizes no longer make sense. Indeed, if law schools continue to grow in number and size at their current rate, the gap between demand for new lawyers and the number of new lawyers will continue to rise every year.

The solution is obvious, although how we can find the ability and the will to do it is not. We have to reduce the number of law schools. Just like GM has to close plants because of over-capacity, we in the law have to close some of our "factories." [Emphasis mine]

The last time I checked, Bainbridge was not a scam-blogger.

Infographic Data on the Oversaturated Market:

In addition to the admissions/statements above, BLS and ABA data show that there is a severe GLUT of attorneys, in the U.S.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/07/31/handy-infographic-on-lawyer-glut-outsourcing-other-happy-topics/

The Wall Street Journal Law Blog featured a July 31, 2012 entry, from Jennifer Smith, titled “Handy Infographic on Lawyer Glut, Outsourcing, Other Happy Topics.” Take a look at this opening:

“Law students — are you having a nice summer?

Well, in case you forgot what awaits you post-graduation, here’s a nice visual slap in the face: a yards-long infographic that helpfully showcases the dismal state of today’s legal job market and outlines the brave new world ahead. (H/T to Indiana University School of Law”s Bill Henderson and Greg Voakes over at Business Insider)

The graphic uses data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the ABA and other sources. It was put together by a company called TelAssistant, which, among other things, supplies answering services and “virtual legal assistants” for attorneys. A call to the company was not immediately returned.

Anyway, it’s all here. The nearly five-fold explosion in the number of law graduates between 1963 and 2010. The declining percentage of law graduates who have found employment (from 85% in 2011 to 62% in 2012, according to the chart). Quick explanations of how globalization and legal outsourcers have changed the playing field, etc.” [Emphasis mine]

Conclusion: If you have an IQ above room temperature, some knowledge of the overall job market, and a shred of objectivity, then you will easily understand that the U.S. lawyer job market is shrinking. The ABA-accredited trash heaps/law schools are aware of this, and they are merely trying to extend the life of the scam. Perhaps, several “professors” and deans are delusional enough to believe that an economic recovery will improve the job outlook for recently-minted lawyers. However, the pigs need to recognize the following: (a) Biglaw clients are not going to embrace a return to the billable hour scheme; (b) automation leads to permanent job losses; (c) U.S. law firms will continue to outsource discovery to foreign attorneys and non-lawyers, as well as temp hag agencies; and (d) the commodes have produced FAR TOO MANY graduates for decades – and selfishly saddled them down with monstrous amounts of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt.

34 comments:

  1. This is truly the beginning of the end for the practice of law as we know it in the U.S.:

    http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/closing_act_ethics_20_20_proposals_crack_open_the_door_for_foreign_lawyers/

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  2. There should only be 50 law schools in existence. I know the ABA will cry that they'd be in violation of antitrust law if they limited the number of schools. But that's just an old bullshit excuse. The medical schools get away with it. When is the Dept of Ed going to start tying federal loan dollars to job outcomes? Let's say only 1/3 of a school's grads get lawyer jobs within nine months. Close down the fucking school or stop issuing loans for students of that school.

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    Replies
    1. The Dept. of Ed. makes money off loan defaults, which is why they keep pouring money in.

      Delete
    2. I am in agreeance to a point with the 50 law schools, but also, that 1 school can become very politicalized and then only a select few who "knows someone" will get in making it unfair for the others. Second of all, they'll still have their prices high no matter what if you have 50 schools or 200 schools. And med schools, don't be that fooled, there are A LOT of med-schools, especially where I live on a tiny island 35 x 100...there are 4...

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  3. "Close down the fucking school or stop issuing loans for students of that school."

    It would amount to the same thing.

    I agree completely, quit dumping taxpayer dollars indiscriminately. If a school cannot place a majority of their graduates in jobs which pay enough to service the loan (in accordance with the original terms, none of this IBR/PAYE bullshit), they should be ineligible for federal loans. This would close down around half, or more, of law schools. It is way past time that some basic underwriting was applied, rather than wasting so much of our money on this scam.

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  4. ^good suggestions, but here's the problem as I see it.

    That would put some of the burden on the bankers and the universities. These two groups have so much influence it's crazy. Nope. Congress is happy to keep issuing funds, as long as only the students are the ones getting fucked.

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  5. Looks like your pal Crynge Johannsen is now writing articles for FinanceSherpas.com

    http://www.financesherpas.com/personal-finance/5-signs-that-you-have-a-credit-card-addiction/

    Look at this shit. You've gone after others for less than this.

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    Replies
    1. Who gives a shit. People have sold out for less.

      Delete
  6. The problem is you will have a school like Cooley that will just enroll more people if other law schools cut back. The ABA should have minimum admission standards for the LSAT and GPA. If you have an undergrad GPA below a 3.0, you should not be allowed to go to law school and that is a bare minimum standard.

    The biggest service many law schools could do for the profession is to close their doors, forever.

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  7. Saludos!

    Another result could be to cap a particular amount of class sizes and leave it at that so that way, they could at least try to curve the amount of grads coming out. However, I unfortunately see this now as pure business. The Cooley law school for example won't stop. They don't care. They'll keep opening up campuses everywhere as if it was a "University of Phoenix" or an "ITT-Tech" online school. Campuses everywhere...speaking of which, it wouldn't surprise me if Cooley's next move would be to have a complete J.D. online...they already have campuses in Michigan (like 2-3 no??) and now one opening up in Florida.

    Every year these universities just keep raising their prices as well on tuition. Whatever happened where education was cheap? The initial idea of universities was to provide education to the public at an affordable price so they in turn, could get a good job and contribute to society.

    What scares me even more is if the law schools (public) and other institutions become privatized into the hands of a few. That right there means its strictly $$$ business and thats it.

    A sad shame for people who really have the good intention to go to law school (or whatever else they enjoy studying) to become someone and do something that they enjoy only for it to be almost unachievable because of a few greedy people at the top.

    Keep up the good work Nando!

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  8. Besides the glut of lawyers we also have today cloud computing where simple legal work such as powers of attorney, leases, simple wills, etch are done by Legal Zoom and other online companies. It is not the 1950s anymore where you can charge high fees to unsavvy simpletons for easy legal work. Consumers are much savvier today than ever and will utilize cloud computing. Just like Geico did to the corner insurance office.

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  9. There are way too many lawyers. No one should doubt that. I do disagree with the comment about diploma mills. A diploma mill is a school that gives you a diploma regardless of what you do, "pay your fees and we will give you C's." True, my lawschool admitted some questionable people. But also true, the program failed 1/3 of them out on their own. Further, the ABA has class state bar passage % requirments and the Bar gets harder every year.

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  10. Law Skools Now Cold-Calling Prospective Applicants, Including Michigan State and Indiana ....

    http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=201571&p=6288010#p6288010

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  11. Someone mentioned cloud computing. That person knows their stuff. You can't get by charging dummies $250 for an easy will.

    Even poor clients are starting to realize lawyers just cut and paste a bunch of shit into a legal document. Why pay said asshole $250 for a will when you go with an online (self help) legal site and do it for a fraction of that already cheap cost?

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  12. If you look at the LST job placement statistics for the first tier only, it is amazing the dropoff outside the T14.

    Of the fourteen T14 schools, 13 or them have LST job placement scores (full-time, bar-required nonsolo jobs, obtained within nine months of graduation) above 75%. (The one exception is Georgetown at 62.4%, so beware).

    However, of the 36 first tier, but non-T14 schools, only one, George Washington, has a score above 75%. In fact, only four score over 70%, and most (20/36) score below 60%. Four schools deemed first tier by US News actually score below 50% (U Maryland, UC Hastings, Pepperdine, American).

    Now, that doesn't make a T14 a good deal by any means, but at least it might not be a total wipeout (unless your T14 is Georgetown). However, if you go to a non T13 first-tier school, thinking that you are on sufficiently high ground to avoid the flood, then think again.

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  13. You know, it used to be that T14 was safe. This was in the 90s. Then it was also the case that it kind of mattered if you went to a top 25 as opposed to a school ranked 50th or 60th. It didn't matter if your school was 78th or 91st even back then. Now it doesn't fucking matter if your school is 25 compared to 78th. The schools are pulling out all the stops to keep the scam going.

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  14. The other day I saw this site where students post their LSAT/G.P.A. and if I remember correctly...I saw quite a few applicants getting accepted into Harvard on a 160-165 when only like 3 years ago, they had to get over a 170 just to get looked at...

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  15. http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jan/08/opinion/la-oe-greenbaum8-2010jan08

    On January 8, 2010, the Los Angeles Times published author Mark Greenbaum's op-ed piece "No more room at the bench." Take a look at the following excerpt:

    "Remember the old joke about 20,000 lawyers at the bottom of the sea being "a good start"? Well, in an interesting twist, thousands of lawyers now find themselves drowning in the unemployment line as the legal sector is being badly saturated with attorneys.

    Part of the problem can be traced to the American Bar Assn., which continues to allow unneeded new schools to open and refuses to properly regulate the schools, many of which release numbers that paint an overly rosy picture of employment prospects for their recent graduates. There is a finite number of jobs for lawyers, and this continual flood of graduates only suppresses wages. Because the ABA has repeatedly signaled its unwillingness to adapt to this changing reality, the federal government should consider taking steps to stop the rapid flow of attorneys into a marketplace that cannot sustain them.

    From 2004 through 2008, the field grew less than 1% per year on average, going from 735,000 people making a living as attorneys to just 760,000, with the Bureau of Labor Statistics postulating that the field will grow at the same rate through 2016. Taking into account retirements, deaths and that the bureau's data is pre-recession, the number of new positions is likely to be fewer than 30,000 per year. That is far fewer than what's needed to accommodate the 45,000 juris doctors graduating from U.S. law schools each year.

    This jobs gap is even more problematic given the rising cost of tuition. In 2008, the median tuition at state schools for nonresidents was $26,000 a year, and $34,000 for private schools -- and much higher in some states, such as California. Students racked up an average loan debt in 2007-08 of $59,000 for students from public law schools and $92,000 for those from private schools, according to the ABA, and a recent Law School Survey of Student Engagement found that nearly one-third of respondents said they would owe about $120,000.

    Such debt would be manageable if a world of lucrative jobs awaited the newly minted attorneys, but this is not the case. A recent working paper by Herwig Schlunk of Vanderbilt Law School contends that with the exception of some of those at the best schools, going for a law degree is a bad investment and that most students will be "unlikely ever to dig themselves out from" under their debt. This problem is exacerbated by the existing law school system."

    In the end, there are way too many law schools pumping out FAR TOO MANY graduates for the available number of attorney openings. Furthermore, skyrocketing tuition compounds the problem. The law school pigs want you to ignore the fact that, each year, legions of JDs are incurring $100K+ in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt - only end up working in non-law jobs, often earning annual salaries of $35K-$45K.

    Now that many college grads are starting to understand the situation, you are seeing a decrease in law school applications and first-year enrollment. Of cour$e, the cockroaches have simply lowered their “standards.” We must continue to roast the law school pigs, over their filthy conduct.

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  16. Last night I was at a party where I was introduced to a South African fellow who is now working in Biglaw but he makes not $160K but about half as an attorney. He earned his law degree for free in the UK and got his LL.M. here in the States. He paid $50K as a foreigner, to obtain the same privilege it costs Americans over $150K. So law schools not only fuck over their JD American students by raping them with high tuition, but also shafts them by providing a one year credential to foreigners who will be more competitive in seeking legal jobs since they are less indentured than their American counterparts. Does anyone out there really believe the law school deans, professors and administrators care about students or the legal profession? For them, it's all about getting theirs while fucking everyone else in the process.

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  17. "So You Want To Go To Law School?"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE

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  18. Great post again Nando, I like how you expose these fraudsters and their bs spin. I just wanted to give you a status update on my classmates from LS (1st tier). I dropped out 2 years ago and they are 3L's now. The vibe is that the top 5-10% of the class is doing allright. They got ADA, JAG, decent firms and even Biglaw. The rest of the class is fucked though, not even Subway gigs.

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  19. law school process:

    Get 'em in (even if you gotta lie)
    Cash in those fucking checks
    Fill them with meaningless shit
    And toss 'em out on their keysters.

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  20. Lol skool apps are down at least. Be happy with that 'cause the ABA is going to do shit to limit the number of schools.

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  21. Look at the dean of the shithole law skool I went to........

    http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2013/01/12/law-school-dean-salary-may-nation-highest/L1pjKel7hGWgPKtT21CfSO/story.html

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  22. http://balkin.blogspot.com/2012/06/failing-law-schools.html

    Check out Brian Tamanaha's June 18, 2012 Balkinization entry entitled "Failing Law Schools." Here is the opening, from that article:

    "My critical book about legal education, Failing Law Schools, is out. About a dozen advance reviews of the book have been published, each with different take, but all in agreement that the book should be read by legal educators. (A few examples: Fish, Kerr, and Henderson.). This recent comment captures the thrust of the book:

    I just finished reading a book that everyone who cares about legal education in the United States should read: Failing Law Schools by Brian Z. Tamanaha. The book does an excellent job of describing the economic realities of law schools for prospective law students and society as a whole. Tamanaha gives a compelling and highly critical analysis of how law school became so expensive, and what can be done about it now. And, he doesn’t pull punches. If the law school you went to wasn’t mentioned, the law school you teach at, or that your colleagues went to will be named (and shamed). Tamanaha is critical of law schools and law professors from the top 14 to the 4th Tier and every school in between.

    For those of us who went to law school before it became so expensive, Tamanaha does an excellent job of breaking down what it means to graduate with $100,000 or $120,000 in student loans for the average law student with the average salary of around $70,000. He also lays out the statistics about how difficult it is, and will probably continue to be, for many law graduates to find full time work as lawyers. This is a situation that Tamanaha argues will continue well past the time when the economy recovers. Tamanaha also describes the shift from needs-based to merit-based scholarships that has, among other problems, made it even tougher for lower income law students to attend law school without high debt. (ADR Prof Blog)

    Many legal educators will disagree with my arguments, of course, and I do not claim to know how to solve what I call the "broken economics of legal education." Indeed, things are so out of whack that I doubt we will solve it. But we must at least begin to grapple with these issues rather than ignore them."

    The reality is that most tenured "law professors" will vehemently deny Tamanaha's charges WITHOUT bothering to read his book. These cockroaches are too entrenched to dare to look closely at their filthy indu$try. In the end, these bastards are AWARE that they are pumping out far too many grads – and strapping them down with monstrous levels of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt. However, they don’t want the general public to understand the situation, because that doesn’t serve the pigs’ interests. They need a large segment of the population to continue to believe in the “higher education” and law school scams – in order to fill their seats and rake in serious loot.

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  23. That chart is damning. Exactly like the sub-prime mortgage crisis : pump and dump, (A)lways (B)e (C)losing, loosen the standards.

    Look at our stats! 96% employment rate! $125k average starting salary! Huge overproduction of lawyers! You've come to expect this from the banks, not "non-profit" institutions of higher learning.

    Except now you do. Nice job, higher-ed! 'Merica! Winning!


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  24. http://abovethelaw.com/2011/06/the-oversupply-of-lawyers-in-america/

    On June 27, 2011, ATL's Elie Mystal posted an entry labeled "The Oversupply of Lawyers in America." Check out this portion:

    "We do not need any more lawyers. Law schools won’t tell you that, because they just want to get your money. The Obama administration won’t tell you that. They don’t want to be looked as “anti”-education. The American Bar Association won’t tell you, they’re… well I still don’t know what the hell their problem is.

    But I’m willing to tell you: No. More. Lawyers.

    And unlike most days when I tell you that, today I have facts. Facts printed in the New York Times.

    Facts that will be ignored by thousands of prospective law students….

    The Economix blog put together some stats on the massive problem of lawyer oversupply:

    [A] few researchers have tried to quantify exactly how big that surplus is.

    The numbers were crunched by Economic Modeling Specialists Inc. (also known as EMSI), a consulting company that focuses on employment data and economic analysis. The company’s calculations were based on the number of people who passed the bar exam in each state in 2009, versus an estimate of annual job openings for lawyers in those states. Estimates for the number of openings is based on data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Census Bureau.

    According to this model, every state but Wisconsin and Nebraska (plus Washington, D.C.) is producing many more lawyers than it needs."

    http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/27/the-lawyer-surplus-state-by-state/

    Mystal cites to the NYT Economix blog piece, from Catherine Rampell, entitled "The Lawyer Surplus, State by State." Unlike the law school pigs, EMSI’s researchers have nothing to gain by telling you to attend or avoid in ABA-accredited diploma mills. Do you still like your odds, ignorant-ass lemming?!?! If you want to be a stupid bitch - and piss away three years of your life, while incurring outrageous sums of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt - then go ahead, moron. When you end up working in a non-law job, making $37K per year, don’t complain that nobody warned you, dolt.

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  25. Here is Mystal's conclusion, to the article above:

    "Put that in your pipe and smoke it, instead of whatever delusional hallucinogenic you were sniffing when you decided to go to law school.

    And, not for nothing, but if we’re producing twice as many lawyers than we need, is it time to close half of the law schools?

    I know, every time somebody says that, students at non-elite law schools get their feelings all hurt. So how about this: let’s just close all the law schools ranked with an even number by U.S. News. Yale stays, HLS goes, Stanford stays, Columbia goes. I would be fine with that.

    Why? Because we have twice as many lawyers as we need, and prospective individual students are too damn stupid to do the math. We are getting to a point where at law school orientations, law school deans should say: “Look to the left, look to the right, you and one of the people you just looked at are freaking idiots.”

    Oh, but I suppose that all of those unneeded lawyers are going to go out and “hang a shingle.” Yeah, because unneeded lawyers creating unnecessary legal work is exactly what America needs.

    Do they even teach math in schools anymore?"

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  26. Oh nooooooo! Some disgusting animal left a huuuuuuuuuuge "Seton Hall Law" sticking out of the office toilet! The janitor keeps flushing and plunging but it won't go down!

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  27. Check out the Wikipedia website for a non-accredited California Law School called Pacific University School of Law. Its tuition is only $5,000 annually and the website says the bar passage rate is 45 %. That is a better California bar passage rate than many ABA approved toilet schools scored on California. All for the tuition price of a Ford Fiesta rather than a mortgage. But gsr this, according to Wikipedia this law school limits enrollment to no more than 50 students. The market dictated its cheap tuition rather than the racket known as the ABA. I am sure the students at Pacific University Law are unemployed also and never landing any law firm positions. Only going Solo at the most. But it is better to be unemployed owing $15,000 than owing $200,000. If they do go solo and need to borrow money from the bank for a law office, showing only $15,OOO debt might get them additional loans rather than showing a mortgage size debt.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I meant to say PACIFIC COAST UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF LAW. Hey, if you are going to be unemployed with a law degree than better to be unemployed with far less debt. Better deal than Thomas Jefferson Law Toilet or Laverne

      Delete
  28. Once a graduate realizes he is unemployed 9 months after graduation than he or she should realize they will never practice law for life. The simple reason is because their career service office only has to send you a survey 9 months after graduation to comply with ABA requirements. Afterwards you are meaningless to the law school and whatever happens to you has no more effect on their stats. The career services will then work on trying to find employment for the next graduating class of lemmings. You will then be low priority or no priority at all past the 9 month marker. And if they could not find you a job as a fresh grad, then you are hopeless when afterwards you are irrelevant to them. This is known as the lost generation or lost alumni. They have no bearing anymore on the law school's reputation and ranking regardless if they are pan-handling for a living or won the lottery. Most end up having their license on inactive status and fade away.

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  29. @ 4:47 -

    Exactly. The numbers of "lost alumni" are directly proportional to the overproduction of law students/lawyers. The skools could produce less and potentially generate better outcomes per student on the average, but hey, that cuts into profits.

    Oh, I'm sorry, I should say "revenue." There are, for the most part, "non-profits" after all...

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  30. I resigned my law license. They havent approved the resignation yet but I hope they do. I am tired of this life of poverty. If I work at a regular job and move my way up to manager position, I will make more money than most of my lawyer friends are making right now. my suggestion to all of you : RESIGN YOUR LAW LICENSE - that will send a message and help you to think of more viable careers.

    ReplyDelete

 
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