Monday, March 25, 2013

Grab the Soft Wipes: Weak-Ass Employed at Graduation Statistics Furnished by US “News” & World Report

The Source:

Apparently, the sewer rats at US “News” & World Report are starting to provide better detailed information on each ABA-accredited diploma mill. The following employed at graduation figures are from the USN&WR law school rankings scheme, published on March 12, 2013. You click on the hyperlinked name of the in$titution of “higher learning,” and you will be directed to the defunct magazine’s Law School Overview for that particular diploma factory.

First Tier Toilet Splashes:

Let’s take a look at Notre Dame Law School, which is rated 23rd best by this TTT publication:


Employed at graduation*: 48.9% [Emphasis in original]

What’s that you say, lemming?! You think that this is an anomaly? We’ll highlight a better school, if you want. Check out this metric, for UCLA, which is listed as the 17th ranked law school in the land, by Bob Morse and US “News”:


Employed at graduation*: 45.9%[Emphasis in original]

Fourth Tier Excrement Samples:

For $ome rea$on, MOST fourth tier trash pits did not bother to provide this data to Bob Morse and USN&WR. I’m sure that this was an unintentional “error” on their part. As such, we will take a peak at the job outlook for graduates of $ouTTTThwe$TTTTern Law Sewer:


Employed at graduation*: 25.2% [Emphasis in original]

It could be worse; suppose that you were a member of the following graduating class, from TTTTexas SouTTTThern UniversiTTTTy TTTThurgood Marshall School of Law, based out of Houston:


Employed at graduation*: 9.8% [Emphasis mine]

Yes, you read that correctly.  Less than one in ten grads from this festering waste pile was employed at graduation.  This means that 91.2 percent of the class - from this fourth tier dung pit - did not have a job when they received their TTTT law degree. Hell, the fortunate grads include those who went to work for family or for a political friend.

Average Law Student Indebtedness Figures, for Each Commode Listed Above:

Take a look at the “average indebtedness of 2012 graduates who incurred law school debt” - as furnished by US “News” - with the percentage of grads with debt listed next to the school:

Notre Dame Law School: $101,512; 86 percent
UCLA $chool of Law: $109,539; 82%
$ouTTTThwe$TTTTern Law $chool: $147,976; 79 percent
TTTTexas SouTTTThern UniversiTTTTy: $99,992; 100% [Emphasis mine]

Those are extremely impressive figures, correct?!?! Remember, those amounts above do not take interest that accrues while the student is enrolled into account. As such, the debt totals will be significantly higher, when you repay the debt - especially if you took out private loans for your “legal education.”

Conclusion: In the last analysis, having a job at graduation indicates that the school name has benefited the student. After all, if you do not have anything lined up when you receive your stupid, little law degree, the commode’s Office of Career Services is not going to help you find employment. Keep in mind that the figures cited above include non-law positions. Why in the hell should you be expected to incur an additional $120K+ in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt, for such garbage job prospects?!?! 

If you do not have employment lined up by graduation, then YOU will be relying on your social skills and personal sales ability, in order to land interviews - let alone job offers. Of course, the pigs will still reap the benefits of your hustle, if you find a position within nine months of receiving your diploma. In the event that you cannot land a job - despite sending out dozens or hundreds of resumes and cover letters, “networking,” attending bar functions, etc. - then the “law professors,” deans and ball-less shills will blame you for your inability to land employment. The U.S. attorney GLUT will not be mentioned by these cockroaches. What a great industry, huh?!


  1. Nando,

    You forget how versatile that law degree from Thurgood Marshall School of Law will be to graduates.

    I would also like to take this moment to thank you. Last fall I was about to jump off the law school cliff because I had a shitty job, I hated. I have found better employment making a damn good living with my 40k BA. Your site was directly responsible for talking me off the cliff. Thank you so much.

  2. The liars, damn liars, and Law ProfDeans are getting shoved out into the light. I would say watch them scuttle and scurry, except they are not self-aware enough to objectively view the facts. "Masters of Evidence", ironically, but too busy living in coddled academic la-la land to care.

    It's about damn time, in any event.

  3. This is one of your best, nando. This stat illustrates the situation so even a semiretarded person hell-bent on going to law school can understand.

    Students are asked to shell out $100K+ for these results. People go to school so they can find decent jobs. They go to law school so they can enter a profession. This isn't the 1940s where young women from rich families went to college to find a spouse and learn how to be proper.

    If you don't have strong first semester grades, your future is limited to shitlaw or doc review at best. (Ivy grads are now taking Bumfuck county ADA and legal aid jobs.) That is if you really, really wanted to be a lawyer and had an idea what that meant.

    Otherwise, you're looking at non-law. Going back to your old job might be an option for some of you. But how many industries want someone who's been out of the game for 3+ years? Don't go to law school. It is too big a risk.

  4. Love the blog Nando, but a quick correction on lending.

    A private loan may have a much lower rate than the federal loan, given that federal loans issue unsubsidized at 6.8% and Grad Plus at 7.9% (Plus 4% origination fee).

    If you have excellent credit, or a cosigner with excellent credit, a private loan can be like 3.5%.

    That being said, the underwriters already know how bad law school outcomes are, so they won't lend except for the best students with the best credit attending the "best" schools.

    This is because private loans don't have the subsidies behind them like fed loans, and if they do go bad, there is financial loss at stake, it just gets passed to a collection agency but a loan that cannot be repaid will not be repaid.

    Old Uncle Sam has the power to stop this law school problem by just underwriting their own loans, instead of writing the blank check they currently do, or allowing private loans to right the market with the "Just Say No" policy on bad educational investments.

  5. The three private schools in my state are twice to three times more expensive (in tuition alone) than are the two public schools. Guess which schools have the best job numbers of all five? Yes, the two public schools. Law school is generally a risk, but to put down 45K a year to be a member of a class one-third of whom will have jobs upon leaving is fucking crazy.

  6. Private student loans are also not dischargeable in bankruptcy if I am not mistaken.

    1. Correct, difference being that Fed Loans will always approve the unsubsidized Direct Loan for $20,500 per year without a credit check, and Grad Plus will approve as long as there is no delinquencies on the applicants credit report greater than 90 days. There is no consideration of Credit Score, DTI, quality of school, major, income potential, or flat out ability to repay in Fed program. Both Private loans and Fed loans cannot be discharged in bankruptcy, but fed loans offer the soft default of extending terms to 20-25 years and Income Based repayment to stretch the term and reduce payments. A private loan just declares default and sells it to collection agency.

  7. Hey Nando

    Does Cryn suck or swallow?

    1. Actually she treats it like some kind of chew toy.

  8. Law School was the biggest mistake of my life.

    Please kids, beware and I say this from the indebted dead:

    Do not sign those student loan papers.

    My life is subhuman indebted shit, but yours does not have to be.

    I beg of you: Do not throw away your future by going to a law school today.

    The massive life mistake will haunt you every day and for the rest of your days.

    1. @Roachy,

      What are you TALKING about? Your life is sweet now. Your parents will take care of you for the rest of their natural lives. After they pass on, I guess you'll be the taxpayers' problem. Assuming you aren't sucking on the taxpayers already.

      Apt description. Roaches definitely are subhuman.

    2. Antonio de Necochea,

      What are you talking about?

  9. I wonder what will happen to the pigs when these schools close because of falling attendance. None of them have ever practiced law anyway. What the hell are they going to do? I guess they'll be on line at the unemployment office behind the JDs that they conned...

  10. @8:18 am,

    You are welcome. Your financial future was not ruined, because you had the brains and initiative to follow that advice. Those who are married to the idea of going to law school cannot look at the facts objectively. Typically, these people believe that THEY will beat the odds. When you point out that the U.S. lawyer job market is oversaturated and shrinking, they take this statement of fact as a personal challenge or insult.

    On June 30, 2011, Building a Better Legal “Profession” – based out of Stanford Law School – posted a piece entitled “Optimism and Confirmation Bias in Law School Applicants.” It appeared in LexisNexis. Take a look at the following lengthy excerpt:

    “While the principle of social proof encourages large numbers of individuals to apply to law school in a bad economy, other psychological processes are also at work. Why did the number of law school enrollees continue to increase over the past few years, even while large law firms eliminated thousands of jobs? Optimism bias helps explain why so many enter law school every year despite dismal future prospects. This phenomenon occurs when people are overly confident in their own abilities and knowledge…

    The large number of students that enter law school knowing that only a small percentage will get top paying jobs demonstrates overconfidence in the face of an uncertain future. The Segal article discusses surveys that find "most law students would enroll even if they knew that only a tiny number of them would wind up with six-figure salaries. Nearly all of them, it seems, are convinced that they're going to win the ring toss at this carnival and bring home the stuffed bear." Optimism bias causes most students to believe that they will be part of this select group; after all, people do not generally see themselves as average. Incoming law students believe themselves fully capable of landing one of those scarce jobs after graduation. To prevent the pitfalls of the optimism bias, prospective students should do their best to objectively analyze as much information as possible before enrolling, and they should seek and accept the honest, candid advice of career advisors.

    One of the phenomena reinforcing law school candidates' optimism bias is another common human disposition - confirmation bias. Confirmation bias is the tendency of people to seek information that confirms their beliefs while discounting information that does not. This bias leads individuals to be overly confident in their conclusions, as they have placed undue reliance on an incomplete set of evidence. Despite the overall grim prospects for most law school graduates, the Segal article acknowledges that "a small fraction of graduates are still winning the Big Law sweepstakes" and getting the high paying jobs that justify the enormous expense of law school. Prospective law students see the public success of some graduates as confirmation that law school will lead to a lucrative future - a classic case of overreliance on instances that confirm expectations. Like most people, prospective law students tend to overemphasize positive instances and create relationships that do not necessarily exist.”

    Lemmings have a tremendous capacity to convince themselves that they are “special.” These poor fools do not want to listen to the facts. In the end, they will be pissing away three years of their lives – and incurring monstrous levels of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt, in the process. With the mainstream coverage of the law school scam – coupled with ABA reports, NALP charts, BLS data, etc. – these idiots will share the blame for their financial ruin. Thank you for not jumping off the cliff. When you are able to purchase a home and start a family, you will be truly grateful that you never enrolled in law school. Lastly, please make sure to inform others of this filthy industry.

  11. Law school is such a sucker's bet. Law professors are parasites feeding on student loans.

  12. I think it's important for any professor at the undergraduate level to really splash some some cold water on over enthusiastic undergrads who are gunning to be big time lawyers.
    I would like to think that most of these professors could see that the realties of many Phd programs (and academic life) mimic law life: massive gluts, up or out, few opportunities for the high profile jobs that most people covet, etc. They know the realties of their path, so hopefully they can use their position to credibly advise students of the likely tough life they will accept.

    1. They probably shouldn't read this book then. The book of special snowflake syndrome.
      Why "A" Students Work for "C" Students and Why "B" Students Work for the Government: Rich Dad's Guide to Financial Education for Parents

  13. In any other field, if a school in the top tenth percentile could still place less than half of its graduates, there would be investigations and even shutdowns.

    Maybe law will finally become one of those fields. Actually, I believe it will, and we will have Nando, among others, to thank.

    Actually, the fact that people like 8:18 am have changed their minds about going to law school is reason enough to be thankful for this blog.

  14. The Valvoline Dean will boast 100% employment after he hires all of his lemmings as part time Mercedes AMG washers!

  15. These numbers are unreal; congrats to Nando for exposing the scam. NOw that it's exposed, what can be done to stop it?

  16. Damn, only 9.8% of students from Texas Southern University are employed at graduation. That's probably only slightly better than ex-cons employed at graduation from the city joint.

    How are students busting their ass to get a job via OCI and then after three years of doing so only 9.8% of them have gotten a full time position.

    Texas Southern should just close shop and give the money back to the taxpayers.

  17. When did USNews start posting this? It's better than the 9 month figure. Because your eventually going to find a job even if its shitwork.

  18. The new stats are sobering for sure. I wish U.S. News included what percentage of graduates reported their employment status.

  19. I wonder if the foolish lemmings realize that they have better odds of winning a jackpot at a roulette table in a casino than they do by going to law school for 3 years, rolling the dice and coming up snake eyes. Mathematically speaking, you can put $100K on black and have a 50% chance of doubling your investment, or you can go to a T20 law school, spend $150K to have a 20% of entering a profession that is nothing more than misery and drudgery. You know who has a 100% guarantee of getting paid princely sums? The law school deans and law professors. Incidentally, I had lunch with a former law school classmate who is now a law professor. He is very disconnected from reality. When I told him that people are spending huge sums of money for horrible legal job outcomes, he stated that the credential will pay off over the span of a career. When I reminded him that the student loan companies will not wait until your career takes off, he mentioned the old IBR and PAYE programs. Lastly, he stated he that he didn't feel terrible for the law students because he did not point a gun at their head and force them to enroll. A six figure debt is not something to be taken lightly. The only six digit debt I ever had was when I bought a house. I paid the mortgage off in 15 years and although it was hard, at least I had a roof over my head during the time I repaid the loan. Can a law degree serve as shelter or a money printing press while you pay off your loans? No. In sum, I have to agree that anyone enrolling in law school today is a fucking moron who deserves to be financially ass raped without the lubrication. This blog contains cold hard facts. People who don't want to acknowledge those facts deserve a penurious life.


    On March 13, 2013, Paul Campos posted a LGM entry labeled "Latest law graduate debt figures." Check out this portion:

    "US News has published the debt figures for the law school graduating classes of 2012. A few notes:

    (1) These figures are mislabeled “average indebtedness of 2012 graduates who incurred debt.” That’s incorrect. These figures represent the mean amount of federal educational loans taken out over the course of law school by graduates who incurred debt. The distinction is significant, because the reported figures don’t include interest accrued during school. How significant? The #1 school on the list, Thomas Jefferson, reported 98% of its graduates taking out a mean of $168,800 in federal loans. A student who borrows that amount will have $201,000 in federal loan debt at repayment, six months after graduation. So you can tack about 17% onto these figures to get a true sense of what people owe on their law school loans when they get their bar results. (Note too that these figures don’t include undergraduate debt).

    (2) The increase in indebtedness over the past few years is startling, though not surprising, given the very rapid run-up in tuition. Compare these figures to the class of 2008:

    Total number of schools where the mean total of law school loans taken out was at least $100,000:

    2008: 47 of 191 reporting schools

    2012: 123 of 193 reporting schools

    The mean total of law school loans taken out at the median school increased by 33% between 2008 and 2012, from $84.5K to $112.6K."

    These numbers are easily accessible. Any college student or graduate contemplating law school can find student debt figures, employment “placement” statistics, and bi-modal salary distribution charts – with a few key strokes. Hell, these kids can now go to their seemingly favorite source – i.e. the US “News” & World Report law school rankings scheme – and find the percentage of grads who were “Employed at Graduation,” for a particular ABA-accredited toilet.

    As the commenter at 6:39 am mentioned, these facts are widely available. You do not need a paid subscription to locate these figures. In the end, the people who go to law school today do so out of willful ignorance. This does not absolve the greedy pig “law professors” and deans of their role, in this scam industry. After all, those bastards are paid handsomely to financially rape the students. Plus, the swine continue to publically extol the supposed virtues of a “legal education.”

  21. A decade or more of dragging through life in debt and unhappy and with no way out of it paints such a bleak picture for the future.

    The happiest days of my life are long past and were before I went to a shameless law school diploma mill. OMG I wish I could go back in time and not have thrown away those three years.

    I lament all the miserable indebted years that have come after and I dread the dismal years that are yet to be.

    To any children in your 20's (and children you are in the face of the horror known as the law school scam) beware and know that the new reality is that higher educational institutions are to be mistrusted.

    And of the monstrous neglect of higher education in America, and the disregard of it by the State as forming good or bad citizens, and miserable or happy men, or women, the lower tier class of law schools has afforded a notable example for over two decades and counting.

    The higher ups in the ABA are the blockheads and imposters who might naturally be expected to spring from such a state of things, and to flourish in it, and the law school deans are the lowest and most rotten rung in the whole ladder; for they form the corner stone of an educational structure, which for absurdity and magnificent high-handed neglect, has rarely been exceeded in the world.

  22. I was thinking that big dudes probably make better lawyers.

    For instance Joseph Cotchett is a big dude standing six foot four.

    Or Bill O'Reilly six foot five is like a de facto political and remote law type.

  23. Too many law schools. Too few jobs. Too much fucking debt.

    Get the picture?

  24. Last year, one of my friends scored a 150 on the lsat and he got into two law schools. He decided not to go even though his girlfriend was pressuring him to go. They're not together any more. It's probably the best decision he's ever made in his life so far.

    1. His girlfriend would end up being.a prostitute to help pay off his student loans if he went to law school hoping that Elliot Spritzer comes by and pays her $5,000 a night. That is why the best law school to go to if anybody decides to enroll to a non-Ivy League is University Nevada at Vegas. The law student can be a Hooker on weekends at the Casinos to defray law school expenses and also network with high rolling pimps to land a job after graduation and work her way up to head Madame.

    2. You say this jokingly but I would bet everything I have ever owned or will own that it has been and is being done to this day.

      I would not lose that bet either.

      Google about such things. And you will find them.

  25. Look at Hofstra, they fell 24 places. How can a law school fall 24 places in one year? Dean Nora Demleitner left Hofstra in a mess then she moved on. How can she sleep at night? Hofstra will fall even more next year because who will go to Hofstra now that it is 113. If I were a Hofstra 2013 graduating student I would be demanding an investigation.

    1. "How can she sleep at night?"

      It's easy when the mattress is full of loose paper money.

  26. The employment rates seem reasonably accurate (~25%), but the median starting salaries listed for each school are TOTAL BULLSHIT!

    I don't know of ANYONE in this profession starting at salaries of $60k - $70k unless one works on Wall Street. Fourth year associates don't even make this kind of money.

    More realistic starting salaries at law firms are like $35k.

    1. This is pretty much what I've been hearing.

    2. I'm not an attorney but work as psychologist for the courts and most of my attorney friends make at least $45K in Brooklyn. I was completed shocked because many of them have massive debt.

  27. Check out the stats on Career Services directors at Average is $70 K annually and the description of the job says requires a bachelors degree and that is it. These ass clowns making 5 times what a Burger flipping law graduate makes and they think they can be helpful without legal credentials. Most got bachelors in Social Work and would have worked at a prison with death row inmates if they did get the law school career $ervice job.

  28. I may have already done so, but the first comment inspired me to reiterate my thanks to Nando, all the scambloggers, Campos, etc., for convincing me not to make what would have been the worst mistake of my life.

    I got laid off (first time ever fired/laid off,) during the Great Recession. I applied to law school and got accepted by a couple. If I had taken the plunge I would be in six-figure debt right now and likely un/under-employed.

    Instead, I eventually found work again in my field. My life is not perfect but at least I wasn't scammed and impoverished by scum in the Educational Industrial Complex.

    Thanks again and keep doing the Lord's work.

  29. Anyone encouraging the masses to go to law school right now is a piece of shit. End of story.

  30. @ Mr. Infinity/WTLS

    Just cool it and be cool. You are among friends and no one has any hard feelings really.

    Please just relax.


    1. Has anything changed, Paintroach? Did your debt go away? Did you move our of your parents' house?

    2. You don't actually wear one of those demonic snake rings do you?

      And you said that this past Wednesday you just found out that Campos ended his blog?

      And that Campos got the idea for writing a book from you?

      Come on Tony

    3. Sounds like a big "no" to me.

  31. At least one law school is feeling the heat. I've received five identical postcards from Rutgers-Camden in the last week - literally one every day in the mail. And I don't even live anywhere near New Jersey.

    Another school offered me a free iPad if I'd enroll.

  32. to 3/26 at 9:22:

    That girl would've dumped the guy anyways when he struck out and became a TTT loser. There's no risk or collateral damage for her. She can just drop the guy and go bang someone with a job, apt, decent car, and minimal debt.

    Your friend did really well with his decision. He avoided the sinkhole of law school and exposed his ex/gf as an opportunist.

  33. Let’s take a look at the “employed at graduation” rate, for other ABA-accredited diploma factories. Here is the figure, from US “News,” for 18th ranked Univer$ity of $outhern California Gould $chool of Law:


    Employed at graduation*: 54.6%”

    The percentage for the University of California Hastings Commode of the Law, listed as the 38th greatest, most phenomenal and amazing law school in the entire nation:


    Employed at graduation*: 34.9%”

    That is beyond pathetic! In fact, this employment metric is not much better than the number for Third Tier Drake. The outcome for the 109th best law school is listed below:


    Employed at graduation*: 27.1%”

    Again, these job “placement” statistics include non-law positions, including those who returned to their prior employers and industries. Of course, these figures also count those who had jobs lined up before they set foot in law school, i.e. those who have a parent who works as law firm manager, partner or federal or state court judge.

    We will now view the Average Law Student Indebtedness, for the Class of 2012. The percentage of graduates with debt is published next to the debt total.

    U$C Gould School of Law: $138,858; 81 percent

    Univer$ity of California Davi$ Commode of the Law: $96,664; 87%

    Third Tier Drake: $106,368; 91 percent

    In the end, the job prospects for recent law grads simply do not justify the immense costs of a “legal education.” The overall U.S. attorney job market is GLUTTED. Anyone with an IQ above room temperature is aware of this fact. Short of STELLAR connections or gaining admission to a truly elite school, you will be worse off incurring an additional $105K+ in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt, for an oversaturated degree.

  34. Nando,

    I also want to thank you. I started law school January 2011 and I didn't return for the fall term. I found out about your blog and the other scam blogs not too long after classes started. Over the semester I realized how terrible the job prospects were and how hard it would be to pay back the $150k I was going to borrow. I decided my best bet was to just walk away. Sure, I pissed away $25k on that semester and it hurts, but I concluded that I would be better off finding anything else and not borrowing the full amount. I'm so thankful that I learned about the scam relatively early and didn't waste anymore time and money. The guys I started school with all thought they were the exception. They are graduating this fall and they now know the game is over and they are fucked.

    Tommy Walnuts

  35. Wish I could convey how appreciative I am for finding this blog. I had almost swallowed my pride and signed a letter of intent at Western New England Law School. I thought better of it at the time before reading this awesome swag here, and it looks like I made the right choice. So, I'm appreciative of that!

    What I haven't seen is anything relating to University of Florida Levin School of Law. I've been accepted, through a connection though, my LSAT wasn't any better than toilet paper. I'm fortunate, I guess, that the GI Bill will pay for most of this boondoggle, and the rest is covered by scholarship(s). Hiring prospects I could really give two flying fucks about. I still have my military career to lean on for a salary that is liveable. I feel that I don't have an emotional stake in this simply because law school is not the end-all-be-all of my academic career nor my professional prospects. I'm doing it just simply because I can, and fuck you to Uncle Sam for getting me shot at, I'm getting mine asshole!

    A question now is; Nando, is there a 'toilet' rating for this school I chose? ...moreover, my mom is going the way of two throws shy of the cuckoo's nest, and bad health due to smoking for 50 years, and my sisters are selfish bitches with "too much already going on" to be much more good than legalized prostitutes. Really though, I do love them. They just piss me off sometimes. In short, I need to be close to her to make sure she doesn't put her house into hock for a night at the casinos.

  36. T14 coming any time soon, Nando?

    It's time for you to humiliate those rats! And when you do U Chicago, don't forget to do a special on Leiter.


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