Monday, April 8, 2013

The Law School Scam Recently Covered by the Wall Street Journal, TIME Magazine, Slate, the Guardian, and the LA Times


Wall Street Journal Law Blog Focuses on Financial Aspect:

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2013/04/04/more-than-50-of-graduates-arent-making-a-living-study/

On April 4, 2013, Jacob Gershman posted a Wall Street Journal Law Blog piece labeled “More than 50% of Graduates Aren’t Making a Living – Study.” Look at this opening:

“More than 50% of law school graduates from the 2011 class aren’t earning enough to buy a house, according to a new study.

The study was done by University of St. Thomas Law Professor Jerry Organ, who wrote up the results in a forthcoming article in the Washington University Journal of Law and Policy.”

TIME Takes a Swipe at the Law School Pigs:

http://ideas.time.com/2013/03/11/just-how-bad-off-are-law-school-graduates/

TIME published Adam Cohen’s article “Just How Bad Off Are Law School Graduates?,” on March 11, 2013. Check out the following excerpt:

“A grim sport has emerged of exchanging stories about just how bad things are. Many lawyers are stuck doing tedious, document-intensive contract work for as little as $25 an hour — not the worst job in the world, certainly, but not what many of them envisioned when they spent three years of their lives and $150,000 to get a law degree.

And there are plenty of worse jobs. “Above the Law,” a website that follows the grim legal market closely, reported one listing on Boston College Law School’s job site that offered an annual salary of just $10,000 which “Above the Law” insisted the firm “had to have known” was “below minimum wage.” 

And it gets worse still. There are a surprising number of job postings for lawyers that offer no salary at all, including government law jobs. That raises the question — as one headline put it — “Would You Work as a Federal Prosecutor — For Free?” 

Being unemployed — or working at minimum wage — is rough in the best of circumstances. But it is especially crippling for students who get out of school with six-figure debts that are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. The average debt load for law school graduates is now over $100,000 — and at some schools, it tops $150,000. [Emphasis mine]

Salon Bitch-Slaps the Law Schools Again: 

http://www.salon.com/2013/04/06/law_school_is_a_sham/

On April 6, 2013, Slate provided an excerpt from Steven J. Harper’s recent book on the legal “profession.” This entry is simply titled “Law school is a Sham.” Review the portion below:

“Today there’s a lawyer for every 265 Americans—more than twice the per capita number in 1970—but for future attorneys, there won’t be enough legal jobs for more than half of them. In 2008, the U.S. Department of Labor’s Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) estimated that for the ten-year period ending in 2018, the economy would produce an additional 98,500 legal jobs. In 2012, after the Great Recession decimated the market for attorneys, the BLS revised that estimate downward, to 73,600 openings from 2010 through 2020. Another prediction considered attrition in combination with the number of anticipated new attorneys on a state-by-state basis and concluded that through 2015 the number of new attorneys passing the bar exam would be more than twice the expected number of openings. Whichever of these statistics turns out to be closest, there’s little doubt that law graduates are already feeling the crunch. Fewer than half of 2011 graduates found jobs in private practice. Nine months after graduation, only 55 percent held full-time, long-term positions requiring a legal degree. [Emphasis mine]

The British Are Now Covering the U.S. Law School Cartel:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2013/apr/04/law-students-uncertain-jobs-debt

The UK’s Guardian posted a piece by Katie Rogers, under the headline “Law students face uncertain future with jobs scarce and debt high,” on April 4, 2013. You should read the entire article, but take a look at this excerpt:

For many legal graduates, the law is now a freelance profession. Tammi Gaw graduated from Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles in 2007 with $185,000 in student debt. Gaw currently works as a contract attorney in Washington, DC and says her story is common. She makes about $65,000 per year. Her loan payments are $1,500 per month.

"It could end at any time, which is a reality of these contract jobs," Gaw, 38, told the Guardian. "Some people find themselves looking for a new contract every two to three weeks."

Permanent jobs with high-paying salaries are a thing of the past for many graduates, and a handful of attorneys are suing against what they feel were misleading job success rates posted by their law schools.” [Emphasis mine] 

Coverage by the LA Times:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-law-grads-20130402,0,1312864.story

On April 1, 2013, Maura Dolan’s article, entitled “Law school graduates aren't finding much on the employment docket,” appeared in the Los Angeles Times. The piece focused on the lawsuits against ABA-accredited diploma mills.

“Nearly 20 lawsuits — five of them against California schools — are being litigated at a time of dim employment prospects for lawyers. Much of the work once done by lawyers can now be done more quickly by computers. 

Online services have made law libraries largely unnecessary, allowing corporations to do more work in-house. Software has sped the hunt for information needed in discovery and other legal tasks, and Web-based companies offer litigants legal documents and help in filling them out. Even after the economy improves, some experts believe the supply of lawyers will outstrip jobs for years to come. [Emphasis mine]

Conclusion: These mainstream articles illustrate the extent of the law school scam. These reports show that the U.S. attorney glut will not go away. The “professors” and deans at these schools are FULLY AWARE of the job outlook facing their graduates. Yet, the cockroaches continue to enroll too many students. Crushing levels of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt compound the problem. Automation and outsourcing have further reduced the need for lawyers. Once the overall job market improves, do not expect benevolent businesses to ditch software programs - in order to pay more, by hiring people.

47 comments:

  1. Why can't you replace law profs with computers? Online lectures on crim law and contracts could do the trick. You could put that shit on youtube.

    ReplyDelete
  2. But, but, but, remember Nando, back in 2009 when you started this blog...? Or Tom the Temp and L4L, for that matter? Indentured law grads were lazy whiners who needed to "network". It clearly had nothing to do with the schools, the ABA, the bogus statistics, and free student loan money. Guys like you needed to stop complaining on blogs and go get a damn job. It takes balls of steel to make it in this profession.

    Wait...you mean the (Boomer) haters, be they law practicioners, cartel-members, quisling law graduates, or general non-legal know-nothings, actually didn't have a full grasp of the facts because the world had actually changed a little bit since the 1960s? Shocker!

    Oh well. Clearly, Nando, you're still wrong and clearly know nothing...because, well, I don't know, gimmie a minute. Matasar's response to struggling grads was "let them eat cake," and guys like them HAVE to be right...somehow...

    ReplyDelete
  3. Replace law profs with Xtranomral videos. Save yourself $300k in loans and three wasted years of your life.

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  4. Anyone who has enrolled in law school in the past five years that bitches about owing debt, I have no sympathy for them. The information has been out there about what the cost of this education is versus the chances of it being worthwhile and if you ignored it because you didnt think it would apply to you or you wanted to be a lawyer, then tough. Its called gambling and most people lose but people continue to play because there are still plenty of rich lawyers that would not become rich managing a Walmart etc.

    The kids I feel sorry for are those that enrolled between 1998 and 2005. They are the ones that got squeezed before the scam became so obvious.

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  5. When will you be able to upsize and get a fucking law degree with an order of fries and a Coke from the drive thru?

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  6. I see dupednontraditional already said what I came here to. Here's to the dumbass posters on TLS. May they eat their tasty crow.

    http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=66974

    ReplyDelete
  7. @12:39PM, you said:

    "Anyone who has enrolled in law school in the past five years that bitches about owing debt, I have no sympathy for them."

    Yes you have harped on that over and over. But you almost seem to say or at least imply that removing bankruptcy protections for such debt is right and just.

    All because you the blogger and the other bloggers had forewarned?

    Just how important or how much influence do you really think these blogs have had on a bankruptcy court, or will have when all is said and done?

    And I will just throw out this question:

    Where is Campos now? Or DJM?

    I am sure Campos will return, but there is a line where free commentary and moderation has to meet.

    If I was a person (probably young) that was a part of OLSS as a writer and I assumed that all postings and commentary would be from friendly and agreeable sources and for the overall good, wouldn't I seem a bit naïve?

    You figure it all out.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It IS right and just - especially for Paintroachies like you who aren't even interested in repaying the money back.

      P.S. for the Roach-Man: heads up, Roachie! You accidentally posted your home address on your blahg. It's at the bottom of your "pre-approved" credit card letter. What a tard!

      You might want to take that down. And don't worry. I didn't even write it down. I have ZERO interest in meeting you, because I'm not a creepy stalkroach like you. Tell me, if you had MY address, you'd post it, wouldn't you? Yep.

      P.P.S. for Señor Ultra-Roach: the fact that you are now trying to get a credit card and take on EVEN MORE DEBT just goes to show how unbelievably stupid you are.

      Delete
    2. Painter, bankruptcy protections for student loans was taken away in 2005. Why didn't you file before then? And the other thing is that your last blog said that it was going to be your last blog. Now you have a new blog? Isn't that fraud?

      Delete
    3. The LA Times and Time magazine are talking about law school like its a scam. B-b-but Antonio de Ne Cochea (Mr. Infinity) says Mr. Infinity knows best. And even though Antonio doesn't have a law job he thinks law school's worth it.

      Delete
    4. Painter, you have to stop with the borrowing of the money. It's not good for your health; not for your financial health and not for your mental health.
      Pre-approved credit cards are amongst some of the most loathsome debt, not as bad a student loans or payday loans but still pretty bad. Never use a credit card whose offer came in the mail unsolicited.

      Delete
    5. Fuck you, bully! I'll borrow as much money as I want!!!!

      STOP STALKING ME!

      Delete
  8. It has become such a blatantly bad idea that it's not even worth commenting on anymore.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Here's another scam for you all. In 2007 the NY law school deans supported salary increases for NY judges. [http://www.stjohns.edu/media/3/870557b247ea4be8979ff26f11c71138.pdf] is it any wonder that the law school graduates lost in NY courts and the law schools won. "I think i'll vote against the people who helped get me a salary increase."

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'm not surprised. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

      Delete
  10. Hello..
    Thanx for sharing such a useful information..want information for work opportunities go bcgsearch.com

    ReplyDelete
  11. The legal profession is shit. You guys thought law schools were any different?

    ReplyDelete
  12. Well....the troll is looking out for me and he gets a smiley face for that :)

    That was nice of him to do!

    But all anyone has to do is look in the telephone directory. My TV interview said what town I live in anyway.

    IBR aside, do trolls believe debt should be compounded to the point it becomes impossible to pay off?

    Or do trolls believe in a reasonable settlement and middle ground?

    Do Trolls approve of the Karen Bass proposal? I doubt it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Or do trolls believe in a reasonable settlement and middle ground?"

      I don't know about trolls, but you never answered my question about why you didn't file for bankruptcy before 2005. Of course you are on ICR, which is the same in concept to Chapter 13 bankruptcy, so it isn't being compounded to the point where you can't pay it off.

      Delete
    2. We mostly believe that you should move out of your parents' house and get a job - ANY job - working for the government. That belief is basically the definition of pure evil.

      Delete
    3. You guys are all missing two big points. Theoretically a law degree should give you mad skills for thinking and working in any business (I know this is way overpriced, and am not suggesting any traditional school is a good value in an economy where there won't be jobs for ANYONE), and the cost of those schools is high enough to pay for a PRIVATE TUTOR for every student. I calculated that a private school ($800 per credit hour for 15 classroom hours is $53.00 per hour). COST BENEFIT for that kind of rip off should be obvious.

      Delete
  13. Fortress Investment Group. Summit, New Jersey

    Among other things, the FIG handles: "Debt Securities"




    ReplyDelete
  14. @6:07AM

    I answered that question already.

    Listen to my NPR radio interview with Cryn Johannsen.



    ReplyDelete
  15. This just in today from The Atlantic: "Jobs Crisis at Our Best Law Schools Is Much Worse Than You Think"

    http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/04/the-jobs-crisis-at-our-best-law-schools-is-much-much-worse-than-you-think/274795/

    ReplyDelete
  16. If I were employed at McDonalds marketing (McDonalds: the favorite hangout of morbidly obese butt-crack showing beef-eaters that smell like cheese and BO) I'd be pissed that you were associating my brand and trademark with the scum of the earth, i.e., law school administrators and faculty.

    ReplyDelete
  17. "Rudy Hasl, dean of the Thomas Jefferson School of Law, said the retirement of baby boomers also would open up jobs."

    These pigs will engage in every form of misdirection to keep people enrolling in their shitty schools. I agree with the comments about how law school professors could be replaced by putting their stale ass lectures on You Tube. There is no reason why you couldn't put the whole law school curriculum on NetFlix.

    Law school professors teach the same crap year after year. You can get old outlines from years ago that almost cover verbatim what the professor is going to say. Why pay 30K-50K a year in tuition? It is not like the professors teach in depth practical skills that you use as a lawyer.

    I truly hate the law school bastards and the mess this profession has become. It did not have to be this way. Nando, good work in gathering the articles.

    ReplyDelete
  18. One correction

    Law professors are nowhere near as noble as the pig. These fuckers are greedy parasites.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Rudy Hasl, what a piece of shit.

    I realize the limitations of changing bankruptcy laws and the high improbability of any loan forgiveness.

    Therefore, people like nando need to keep at it, beating the drums, as this generation gets its information from the internet. Gone are the days of just trusting a law school's fake stats. Today, potential students will research schools online, and more often then not stumble across this website.

    So while those who have already gone are in a tough spot, the aim must be to prevent future enrollees. And that's already happening. Less LSATs being administered, smaller class sizes.

    We're winning.

    ReplyDelete
  20. http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2013/apr/04/law-students-uncertain-jobs-debt

    The tide is definitely turning. Here is a great, meaty portion from the Guardian:

    “[Ed] Coleman earned his law degree from Rutgers School of Law in Newark, New Jersey in 2009. It was the same year that the aftermath of the recession gave a record number of Americans the idea to wait out bad job prospects with a stint in law school. That school year, 171,514 people took the Law School Admissions Test; it was an all-time high. By 2012, that number would plummet 34% to 112,515. Something else declined: the median starting salary, from $72,000 in 2009 to $60,000 in 2012.

    In 2009, as a record number of hopefuls were trying to get in, Coleman and others graduates stepped out to find the outside world still offering the low-paying – and scarce – jobs they'd tried to avoid.

    "From what I understand, starting a career in a downturn can mean I might never make the kind of money I might have made had the economy been better," Coleman said. He is currently making $70,000 as an attorney in Manhattan. According to US News and World Report, the average debt amount from Rutgers-Newark is $87,272. Coleman estimates that about $70,000 of his $110,000 student debt bill was accrued in law school. The thought of paying it all off makes him feel like a zombie.

    The law profession is facing a crisis, and a juris doctor is no longer a generalist's degree; it's not all courtrooms and arguing any more. Computers can do much of the same work as a law clerk, and schools are having to adjust. A survey by the education group Kaplan Test Prep found that more than half of US law schools were adapting to the smaller pool of applicants by offering smaller classes, mostly because of an anemic job market. About 47% said they planned on bolstering aid packages for prospective students.

    There is less focus on how the change in the legal profession will affect students. Law schools are adapting, but graduates don't have it so easy. Many feel locked into legal careers because of the crushing debt they have accumulated; fewer people are running to law school hoping it will save them from the economy. Applications to law school have dropped by 20% compared with those posted by this time in 2012, according to a March report from the Law School Admissions Council.”

    Keep in mind that Coleman is supposedly earning $70K as an New York City lawyer, while trying to service $110K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt. And he reports finding loan repayment difficult. Now, imagine graduating with a TT law degree - and landing employment at a mere $40K salary.

    http://www.bankrate.com/finance/college-finance/payback-3-tips-to-manage-student-loans-1.aspx

    On May 2, 2011, bankrate.com published Marilyn Kennedy Melia’s piece “3 tips to limit student loan debt.” Look at this general rule:

    “Tip No. 1: Your debt should relate to future pay

    It's Common Sense 101, but somehow it eluded us. You must be able to make your student loan payments out of your post-college paycheck.

    "Total education debt at graduation should be less than the expected (annual) starting salary," says Mark Kantrowitz, publisher of Fastweb.com and FinAid.org.”

    ReplyDelete
  21. @Apr. 9th 6:07AM

    In 1998, Congress made federal student loans nondischargeable in bankruptcy, and, in 2005, it similarly extended nodischargeability to private student loans.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Painter is on ICR, so in effect he has already declared bankruptcy. The loans will be discharged in 25 years.

      Delete
  22. Law skools are run for the benefit of the greedy profs. If the students must be sacrificed so the greedy fucking pigs can keep driving around in luxury cars so be it.

    ReplyDelete
  23. It's just disgusting how these pigs have gotten rich off such a pyramid scheme. And it's legal too. At least the bastards at Enron got thrown in jail.

    ReplyDelete
  24. College presidents, law school deans, and law school professors have the moral compass of a used car salesperson. Law school is a scam. Law schools will protect their revenue at the expense of their students, the legal profession, and the truth. Fucking bastards.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Paul Campos mentioned:

    http://www.policymic.com/articles/30901/for-many-students-law-school-is-little-better-than-a-scam

    ReplyDelete
  26. If you watch thee movie CON AIR you will notice the criminal mastermind CYRUS THE VIRUS got his JD when they introduce the criminals. He got his JD in prison which if the movie was a true story.....is much better than getting a third turd law school JD. No student loans and he almost made it to Columbia with drug lords where there could have been more money making opportunities.

    ReplyDelete
  27. ^ Stupid parasite Paintroach, breaking 100 or so promises by CONTINUING to post.

    YOU are the ultimate scammer, dude.

    ReplyDelete
  28. @ 3:40 pm,

    Thank you for that link to the Policymic piece, from Gabriel Rodriguez, which was published on April 5, 2013. Here is my favorite segment of that article:

    http://www.policymic.com/articles/30901/for-many-students-law-school-is-little-better-than-a-scam

    “University of Colorado law professor Paul Campos, who ran the blog, “Inside the Law School Scam,” crunched the numbers of the NALP report and found that only 33.75% of all law school graduates having what would be considered a real long-term legal job nine months after graduation. That is a one in three chance. You are better off flying to Las Vegas and betting all of that loan money on black.

    Law schools are in no rush to correct the fiction of there actually being good jobs for law students. Law School Transparency, a nonprofit research group, found that 78.4% of ABA-approved law schools offered incorrect, imprecise, or outright false job placement information on their websites. In an attempt to battle the sheer forces of reality, law schools have done everything from opening their own firms to outright paying unemployed students to work at unpaid internships or do pro-bono work.

    The changing nature of the legal profession only further adds to the woes of law school graduates. More and more people are forgoing utilizing a lawyer for legal paperwork, utilizing specialized companies such as LegalZoom to handle tasks that would have gone to recently hired law students. Firms and other organization are finding it simpler to outsource simple legal assignments to other countries such as India where they can get the work done at a fraction of the price. And in many industries, clients are pressuring firms to be more efficient in their services, decreasing the number of billable hours. This leads to fewer lawyers needed per client along with less money to pay those lawyers.

    Ultimately the question is that will law schools be able to adapt to the new reality that has emerged. Schools will have to decide if they can ethically graduate legions of law students who have no chance for acutal employment in the legal profession. Because while lawyers may argue the about the law, you cannot deny the laws of economics.”

    It is slightly funny that the page currently features several ads for a Master’s degree program in “International Relations.” Furthermore, the author is listed as a “writing intern.” It’s a brave new world, right?!

    This piece hit all the main points, regarding the law school scam: the job market is glutted; the schools often hire unemployed grads, in order to artificially inflate the nine-month placement rate; tuition continues to SKYROCKET; the role of automation, legal software and outsourcing, in cutting down consumers’ legal expenses; and Biglaw clients demanding efficiency, i.e. smashing the billable hour scheme. It is great to see that this is becoming common knowledge.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Nando, I've got a question for you. So I read Paul Campos's book, which said don't go unless you get into HYS and Co. (full-sticker price worth it) or you get a full scholarship (and maybe stipend) to a lower tier regional school. And you say don't go unless you get into a top 8 school with a scholarship - I'm guessing you mean the cross-subsidized tuition discount.

      My question is, which option is the best way to go? If someone gets into HYS/Penn/Chicago/etc full-price, should he go no matter what? Is that always a smart move? And which schools do you mean by top 8: are you using US News or Above the Law rankings or employment stats? What would your top 8 list be?

      And then there are schools in the middle, like Northwestern/UT Austin which aren't the cream of the crop but aren't third tier regional schools, which probably will only give a tuition discount. So it seems all in all the options are 1) top school full-price (e.g, Harvard), 2) good school tuition discount (UCLA) and 3) regional school full scholarship (UC Hastings). What are your thoughts?

      Thanks a lot. Here is an article you may find interesting, not sure how reliable it is. It's a list of the schools with the best debt to salary ratio. http://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/the-short-list-grad-school/articles/2013/08/13/10-law-degrees-with-the-biggest-return-on-investment?int=d29cc0

      Delete
  29. It takes away from Campos' legitimacy considerably that he chooses to continue to be employed at a law school. If he's so opposed to this filthy scam then his morality should instruct him to resign from his law school post and make his money elsewhere and honestly.

    I appreciate his commentary, but it rings a little hollow when you are a town cryer against law schools yet you keep sucking money off the ponzi scheme. He should resign his post and refuse to be a part of perpetuating this rotten industry.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The fact that Campos was a tenured law professor at a first tier school helped augment the scambloggers' message. Before he or Brian Tamanaha came on board, the shills and pigs would always use the canard, "These guys are all bitter, unemployed losers."

      If he were to quit his job, nothing would change about the overall legal job market, tuition, "placement" rates, etc. In fact, the law school cockroaches would see it as a vindication of their position. Again, such a gesture would not do anything to prevent fewer lemmings from entering the meat grinder.

      Delete
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    ReplyDelete
  31. I know I shouldn't be, but I was surprised Hastings did as badly as Golden Gate. The stats seem to indicate that any school that isn't Stanford or Berkeley in Northern CA is seen as an equally funny joke by employers.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Up through the 20th Century in order to become an attorney in most, if not all, States, one simply "read the law" and took the Bar Exam. Law is not Physics or Engineering - basically just reading comprehension. Most lawyers made a very mediocre living, with the connected and the "rock stars" making very good money. The glut of attorney's simply reflects the efforts of those not analytically oriented to find work in an economy that can't support them. Yes, they are being scammed.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Re Aug 29 5:18pm post, I meant to say ""Up through the EARLY, 20th Century..." - of course the bureaucratic scam of "law school" took root like Stinging Nettles by the 50's and was really out of control by the end of the 20th Century - I'm surprised there isn't a law school version of Phoenix or Strayer University online.

    ReplyDelete
  34. "Most law schools are operating at a deficit this year as they grapple with lower enrollment and try to lure more students with tuition discounts, concludes a law professor who studied the numbers.

    Just how many law schools are losing money? Eighty percent to eighty-five percent, according to the estimate by University of Colorado law professor Paul Campos, writing at the blog Lawyers, Guns & Money. Above the Law notes the article." Would be students wising up?

    ReplyDelete

 
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