Friday, December 27, 2013

Wisconsin Bar Task Force Reports that More Than 40 Percent of Wisconsin Lawyers Would Not Attend Law School if They Had a Do-Over

The Task Force’s Findings: In November 2013, the Wisconsin State Bar issued a 25 page document labeled “Challenges Facing New Lawyers Task Force Report and Recommendations.”  According to the introduction, the task force was appointed by the bar president in January 2012.  Check out the following, from page 7 of the PDF:

“To provide background, more than 9 out of 10 respondents reported suffering tremendous burdens as a result of their debt.  The median cost of a law school education for the respondents was $95,000, the mean was $94,822.  The middle half of respondents ranged in law school costs from $68,000 to $120,000.  About half of all respondents (53.8%) had educational debt before they entered law school with the median value of $20,000.  Overall, respondents reported still owing a median of $90,000 on their law studies.  The survey also confirmed that the overall amount of loans borrowed for law school from 2005 to 2008 had increased by approximately 36.8%.” [Emphasis mine]

On to page 8 of this report:

“While the data suggests that students were less surprised about their debt levels, a much larger percentage  of the respondents (78.9%) indicated that their earnings were less than they expected during law school.  These individuals had an average law practice compensation of $41,591...

Not only was income than expected for most law school graduates, but most (71.4%) said that they had benefits less than expected.  Many attorneys were not covered by benefits.  Fifteen to twenty percent of respondents had their benefits, including health, dental or vision, covered by a spouse or partner.” [Emphasis mine]

Yes, what a great return on investment, right?!?!  This is one reason why I ripped Christopher Knorps a new rectum.  The rodent - from a well-off family - constantly bitched about students “expecting six figure salaries.”  In reality, these men and women removed themselves from the full-time work force for several years - and incurred substantial student debt in the process - with the intent to enter a decent profession.

Other Coverage: On December 20, 2013, the ABA Journal published a piece from Debra Cassens Weiss, which was entitled “Would you go to law school if you had a do-over? 40 percent of young lawyers in this survey said no.”  Here is the opening:

“More than 40 percent of young lawyers in Wisconsin would not go to law school if they had it to do over again, given what they know now, a survey has found.

The survey, chronicled in a report (PDF) by a State Bar of Wisconsin task force, found that young lawyers in the state still owed a median of $90,000 for their law school studies. Said one respondent: “I think about my debt several times a day. Unfortunately there is no solution to it, so I just drag this debt around with me, like Jacob Marley was forced to drag his chains around for all eternity.”

About 600 lawyers in the bar’s Young Lawyer’s Division responded to the August 2013 survey. About 72 percent of the respondents had graduated from law school since 2008. Nearly 80 percent reported they were earning less than expected in law school; lawyers in this group had an average law practice compensation of about $41,000.” [Emphasis mine]

Good luck paying off $90K+ in NON-DISCHARGEABLE loans, while earning $41K per year.  Plus, the latter figure is before payroll taxes, SSI and health insurance are deducted.  Try supporting a family or purchasing a home on that income level.

By the way, imagine if the state bar swine had exclusively surveyed recent law graduates.  Keep in mind that those who attend a Wisconsin law school, and intend to practice there, do not need to take the Wisconsin bar exam.  This at least saves the JD the added stress and financial costs associated with the test.

OLSS contributing author Antiro wrote a December 20, 2013 entry entitled “Wisconsin Legal Task Force Comes Down on the Side of the Reformers.”  Review the passage below:

“The CFNLTF also compiled a survey of 599 young lawyers (about 70% have graduated since 2008), most of which whom worked in smaller firms.  The survey found that more than h,alf had found their loans to have majorly impacted their lives, while a quarter expected to not pay off the debt for 6-10 years, and about a third expected to be stuck with their loans for more than 20 years.

I'm not going to continue to summarize the survey results much longer; it's exactly what you would expect: most found their pay and benefits to be lower than they expected, most didn't learn about the difficulties facing lawyers until they were already enrolled in law school, and most who went to law school "wanted to help others or serve justice."  It's encouraging that the State Bar of Wisconsin is paying attention to the future of the legal profession, and while many in the legal ed reform movement have been beating these particular drums for a few years, it is clear that the momentum is clearly in our favor.” [Emphasis mine]

Conclusion: Law school is a piss poor “investment” for those who are not wealthy or seriously connected, i.e. the vast majority of students.  Head to the FinAid Loan Calculator, provided by Pussy Mark Kantrowitz.  Enter the loan amount of $90,000 at an 8.25% interest rate.  If you were to take 30 years to pay off the loan, you would have paid $243,410.31 in total.  The monthly payment would be $676.14.  In the event that you paid this amount off in 20 years - at the same interest rate -  you still would have made $184,045.85 in cumulative payments.  

Hell, you would be fortunate to make the monthly $676.14 monthly payment, on the longer schedule, if you are making roughly $40K per year.  After taxes and insurance are taken out, you would be looking at around $28K-$30K in net salary.  Your minimum annual loan payments - under the 30 year plan - would eat up $8,113.68 of that amount.  That doesn’t leave much for food, shelter, or other bills.  Of course, the law school pigs do very well under this arrangement.  They are paid up front, in full - while you are left holding the bag for the next 20-30 years of your life.  Their unjustified pay is in no way tied to the students’ job prospects or outcomes.  Heed this warning, Lemmings.


  1. Nando:

    Found this on Business Insider. I think the ignorant and hurtful comments are very telling.

  2. I think we've finally found ourselves in new territory: either 1. acknowledge reality or 2. express something nonsensical and be laughed out of the room. A couple of scamblogs and mainstream sites have picked this up now. Still waiting for the establishment attempts explaining it away...

    Second, it would be awesome if the stats therein could be compared to what is collected at this time. Have the recent increases in ABA mandated data disclosure resulted in accurate figures being released? (Calling Law School Transparency perhaps?)

  3. 40% wouldn't go back knowing what they know now. And you can be assured many more would have answered the same, but many lawyers still want to save face and act like all is well.

    If the survey wasn't anonymous, this would affect the level of honesty too.

  4. After reading the headline, I thought that 40% seems low. I was thinking somewhere between 60-70%...but that might be low too.

  5. In law school I saw many people who were entitled individuals who thought they were so much smarter and better than everyone else. They thought they were big shots who knew everything. Well, reality can bite hard. That's not the law school's fault. These kids had it coming. You all did too. Stop your whining and make something of yourselves. You were never THAT great in the first place.

    1. Not everyone has rich parents like you Knorps. You went to a shithole and your parents'll bail you out.

    2. According to his website, Knorps is on IBR, which basically means that he has failed to find a job that can service his debt and is now on a form of soft bankruptcy. He doesn't seem to understand that.

  6. Interesting article about a potential change in the tax code that could ruin biglaw:

    what oh what would all those elite grads do!? They better keep lowering acceptance standards for law schools so all these HYS grads have professor work when biglaw starts shrinking again...

  7. Repaying College Loans on minimum wage:

  8. Law school is a shitty investment for all but the protected, preferred and connected. And now even some of those cunts are getting left out. That's how bad it is now.

  9. Federal Student Loan Profits Rival Apple’s, Exxon Mobil’s Profits:

  10. Why are dumb kids going to law school or college for that matter? Why rack up $250K of student loan debt for the meager chance to earn $50K (if you are lucky) as an entry level lawyer? Don't kids know that there are jobs starting in the low six figures ($125K per annum) in North Dakota which don't require a law or college degree?

    Check it out:

    If you go to law school, you are a sucker who is just subsidizing the fat cats known as law school deans and professors.

    1. Because they are raised in a society that has placed such a high value on college that you are looked at as "uneducated" if you don't go to college. Really though the people who pump up going to college are self-interested professors and administrators who need to keep that idea going and politicians are happy to keep the state/federal loan dollars coming in because they want to get in on the university scam when they retire from their public "service" careers. Sadly, most of the parents don't know any better because they are boomers themselves who just assume things are they way they were when they were growing up and entering the workforce.

      Thankfully though this generation gets their information from the internet so the scamblogs are really making a dent.

    2. No, it's not making a dent, because sites like are DESTROYING the movement altogether! hahahaha

  11. Too much debt, too little pay, too few lawyer jobs. Anyone who went to law school in 2010 or later is a fool. The info was out there. But these special snowflake assholes chose to ignore it.

    1. Sooo, Gary Coleman is really still alive and working on the Police force?!?

      I knew it!!

      Insane Conspiracy Theories: 1. Regular Theories: A billion.

  12. I just looked this up. A couple of my high school classmates are cops. I went on the salary page just now.

    One dude (a black midget who got on because his dad was a police officer) is making close to $80,000. With benefits, OT and other pay, the guy got $138,000 with pay and benefits. Seriously, this fucker was 4'10 his senior year.

    The other guy makes $67K and that goes to $116K when all the other shit is rolled in. He had serious anger issues but I guess that wasn't covered in the police psych screen.

    College is a waste of money. And law school is a fucking joke. You don't need to shell out $100K in borrowed money to get a good job. You can be a cop with no education and make good money and retire early.

  13. 455,

    Then become a cop.

    "What a sick, upside-down country! All these uneducated people getting paid for working! Bah! I went to law school, so I should get paid to live with my parents and avoid work! Or, at the very least, I should get paid 160 grand to sit at a desk and goof off all day! Screw you, Americaaaaa!"

  14. Cooley Cockroach associate Dean Nelson Miller just posted an article today, December 27th, called YOU CANNOT SAY THAT ABOUT LAW SCHOOLS" and is saying all these hollow platitutes about how law schools make someone a better person and also that law schools are a better alternative than business school. Yet Cooley promotes its joint MBA programs just like other law schools. You can smell the desperation with these cockroach deans defending their so called legal education. Got to read the article if you want a laugh. Sure....$200k in student loan debt and no job prospects make someone a better person.

  15. Please follow @LawLemmings @JDjunkyard @JDdebt and @LawSchoolScam on Twitter. Even the WSJ said recently that Twitter scambloggers might be having an effect on lawl school enrollment #s. ;)

  16. I don't think many law professors realize how shitty they along with a wicked grading curve make some of their students feel over a long duration of months or years.

    Frankly I was in a really bad state during my 1L year, but I thought the stress and pressure and my low gpa were worth enduring and it all was going to pay off someday.

    Here is a story from last June about a Law Grad that killed himself after failing the Bar Exam for the second time:

    And if the law school experience won't depress the hell out of some people, the toxic, nondischargeable student loan debt will be the final nail in the coffin.

    And so it seems that today, passing the bar exam may well be the last hope before almost inevitable financial destruction with the six figure debt.

    1. At least Sallie Mae never got to collect any money from that guy.

    2. But they or GC Services will harass the poor fool's parents or other living relatives for that money.

  17. @ludostories is also a good one on Twitter.

  18. Go to the comments section of this article.

    One commenter, using the handle “Perspectives, perspectives,” posted this gem on
    December 20, 2013 at 1:08 PM CST:

    “Surprise, surprise - I would have never guessed that individuals with $135,000 worth of debt on average for a law degree and who, in this market, consider themselves privileged to have a paid legal job of $41,000 a year would regret their decision to go to law school and resent the field that gleefully misled them about job prospects. I only wonder what the other 45% of graduates who never even got legal jobs think.

    But hey, as long as the law schools made awesome profits in the last few years due to dubious and misleading advertising, that’s all that matters. Why do long-term prospects for the legal field matter when some individuals (ie: the law schools) in the short-term have done so well?”

    Six minutes later, a guest commenter responded with these remarks:

    “Look at the bright side. Law profs and law school administrators have taken home ever-increasing salaries and, for profs, smaller work-loads. What a glorious country. Dean O’Brien of the New England School of Law - $650 k a year. Leduc at Cooley? $500 ish. What a scam.

    THis is where the money is going folks. What a joke. I have ZERO pity for kids today - a simple internet search shows the scam for what it is.”

    On December 20, 2013 at 1:16 PM CST, commenter “DCW” provided this reply:

    “I regret going to law school every day solely because of my debt. The job sucks, but most jobs suck. The only difference is the barrier to entry in law costs more than a house.”

    These commenters are well aware of the scam. In contrast, pieces of trash, such as Mr. Insanity, are doing the devils’ bidding. Some people have NO INTEGRITY or common decency.

  19. By the way, isn’t it odd that Christopher Knorps posted on “Flying Houses” on December 18th - and that Mr. InfiniTTy again became active on the OTLSS, ITLSS, and TTR comment boards on that same date?!?! Yeah, keep claiming that you are not Mr. Insanity.

    Now, Mr. Infinifool has also posted a new entry regarding the holidays this morning, after a four month hiatus. On Flying Houses, Knorps also took a two month break between posts. What a strange "coincidence," huh?!?!

    You will notice that “How to Win at Law School” is listed as one of his favorite books, on his Blogger profile.

    Also, when you head to Law School Fail, you see that the site is now labeled Your other alter ego, “Odnan,” did the same thing with his old garbage blog. That site was redirected to something called

    In fact, when you enter that name, you are now re-directed back to From the header:

    “Law School Case Briefs | Hints | Tactics

    This site offers a vast supply of copyable case briefs and legal outlines for law students and legal professionals.”

    This site takes you to an Amazon link for a garbage book entitled “How to Win at Law School: Setting Goals for Law School Success.”

    You truly are an idiot, Knorps. Apparently, you are still butt hurt over my profile of Crooklyn Law Sewer back on July 18, 2010. This was about one month before the cockroach started his TT “studies” at that ABA-accredited cesspool.

    In the end, even the denizens on JDU realize that Knorps and Mr. InfiniTTy are one and the same. Hell, those posters perceptively pointed out that the writing styles and content are nearly identical.

    From “lazlo,” posted on July 18, 2013 at 11:37 pm - in response to the ass-hat:

    “Your fatal mistake was to post online under both your own name and a pseudonym, on the same topics, with similar language. And fer chrissakes, next time don't use your own online handle to plug your ebooks!”

    1. The Great Lawland Prophet is thrilled to see Mr. Infinifool is back at it again. He is a great advertiser of the results of the lawland scams. He still has no job. What a retard. God bless.

  20. Christopher Jack Knorps wrote in the Brooklyn Law School Newspaper:

    "First, we consider, .............I personally dislike this blog because he brags about getting 50,000 comments (I have about 100 comments and 30,000 page views, but I would like to think that I have written on a far more diverse range of topics). I also have little sympathy for law school professors that write about how they know they are “duping” their students—if you believe that strongly about it then get out (maybe it’s all he’s qualified to do, though."

    The link to the above quote is here:

  21. Law grads have it worse now. Because of outsourcing and automation a shit ton of jobs won't be coming back.

  22. So, in 100 years we've gone from learning the legal profession by clerking for a lawyer, to wasting 150,000 dollars on three years of school and then NOT working as freakin' attorneys. De friggin lightful.

  23. Mr Infinity's blog is back - and he's renamed it the same thing as your blog...

  24. Mr. Infinity probably lives with his fucking parents.

  25. I just want to say that even now I am willing to forgive and forget as far as Mr. Infinity goes.

    He is just a young kid compared to me after all and so is his 30 year old wife.

    He could have spared us all a lot of upset by not being a very hurtful anon troll.

    However, he did take on the role of a troll and never thought he would be discovered.

    And for the record I think the efforts of Nancy Leong to find out who is trolling her are laudable and quite reasonable and I can understand how she is likely upset by not knowing who the phantoms are.

    All that said, I want Mr. Infinity to know again that I have no hard feelings and I hope he will think over how much he has hurt others under the cloak of anonymity.

    I think Beverly put up with a helluva lot as the young wife of a law student and she didn't deserve to have her husband moonlighting as an internet troll whilst borrowing the marriage into financial ruin.


    Johnny Lovely Johnny Painter

    1. I am not sure who Nancy Leong or Beverly Leong is, but I wish you no harm painter guy. I wish you no harm either. Good luck with your life.

      Mr. Infinity

  26. Check out the December 23, 2013 post by William Peacock, which was entitled "Buyers' Remorse: 40% of Young Wis. Lawyers Regret Law School." In particular, focus on the following segment:

    "If you could go back in time, before the bar, before the case books, before the LSAT, would you make the same decision?

    More than 40 percent of your cohorts wouldn't. And that's just one of many findings of a report by a State Bar of Wisconsin task force. Other (obvious) findings included recent graduates earning far less than they expected when they went in to school, being so far in debt that they feel like they'll never escape it, and more than a third admitting that they have considered changing professions (though only approximately 1 percent actually did).

    What's the solution? The task force has a few ideas, and while the recommendations are well-intentioned, (spoiler alert) they are highly unlikely to make a difference.

    The Problems

    Anyone who has been following the plight of the recession law graduate already knows the landscape: no jobs and lots of debt.

    Private sector jobs were wiped out with the economy. Public interest and government jobs were wiped out with sequesters and state budget crunches. Any remaining jobs became were fought over by the surplus in freshly-minted attorneys.

    Even public interest jobs with low salaries, once the domain of the noble-intentioned and the barely graduated, are fought over by the best and brightest, in part due to job scarcity, and in part because Public Service Loan Forgiveness wipes out your debt after 10 years of serving your fellow man. Nice perk, if you can find a position."

    Now, to Peacock’s conclusion:

    “The Verdict

    You want to fix the problem? Everything suggested in the report treats the symptoms. The problem is too many schools, with too many graduates, and way too much in tuition costs. Students shouldn't have to spend $150,000 to get a degree, especially when that degree carries little earning potential beyond that of a liberal arts undergraduate degree. And crippling debt is what drives their depression and makes extending their services where there is demand (the poor, the rural, etc.) impossible.”

    Anyone with a functioning brain stem can see that the law school pigs have fattened themselves at their students’ expense. The bastards have no integrity or any semblance of common decency. Now that the truth has spread to the general public, the gluttons are in panic mode. The academic thieves want to keep eating at the public trough.

  27. So "Beverly" is 30 years old, huh?

    Perhaps the AWESOME little YouTube roach should spend some of its time looking for work (eeeeeeek!) instead of being a creepy little stalker.

  28. Nando, I would like to state that I am pretty much done with the scamblogs and you, but I wanted to say that I did enjoy my time in our battle of wits on the internet. As I am preparing for a new phase in my life (fatherhood and a new JOB), I do not want to argue with you further.

    I will once again say that I am not Knorps. I am my own man, and a man that wishes you nor anyone else on here any hard feelings. Now that I am finding work I am starting to realize why you are all so angry. I just wish you were nicer about it. I never liked the cussing and the fowl language, but I understand why you are angry. It sucks not having a job, and I will admit that I was angry myself these last few months (that is why I did not post here or on my blog). With a baby on the way it is hard to deal with oneself as a man without having a job. You are all right in some ways about the law school scam thing, but in others, I feel that you are wrong. Maybe I just want you to be. Maybe I just hoped it was a lie, as it was too late for me. Either way, I wish you all the best and am done messing with you. JDPainter, I think these last few months have taught me how you must have felt. Nando, as a soon-to-be father, I wish you the best with your daughter. You may hate me, but the truth is, I wish you or the others no ill will. To be honest, I had a lot of fun being "Mr. Infinity" but the truth is, it is time for me to grow up and move on. And, even some of you have to admit the going back and forth with me was fun.

    Thank you all for a good time. Good luck to all of you in life.


    Mr. Infinity

  29. More years ago than I care to admit, I commuted for a few months on the Long Island Rail Road. I took the 6:42 from Ronkonkoma to Manhattan, to be exact.

    It's probably the only occasion in my life when I saw 10,000 unhappy people at the same time. A lot of them were lawyers. And this was well before the current crisis Nando and others are now describing.

  30. Nando is getting some Press from Brian Leiter:

    1. yeah, too bad he followed it up with this piece of garbage

      complete with pretentious, unnecessary quotes from Nietzsche and everything, to prove it's written by an actual Law Professor. Guess this one must be genuine, folks,

  31. Looks like flabby and chinless ubershill Brian Leiter is due for a Nando beatdown.


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