Friday, May 2, 2014

Attention, Prospective Students: Law School is Still a Bad Bet

Overall Legal Job Placement for the Class of 2013: On April 9th, the ABA Journal posted Mark Hansen’s piece, “Job outlook for new lawyers still bleak, data shows.” From the opening:

“Fifty-seven percent of all 2013 law school graduates were employed in full-time, long-term legal jobs requiring bar passage as of Feb. 15, according to data released Wednesday by the ABA Section of Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar.

Still, that’s up slightly from last year, when 56.2 percent of all 2012 law school graduates were reported to be in full-time, long-term legal jobs requiring a law license nine months after graduation.

Another 10.1 percent of all 2013 graduates were employed in long-term, full-time jobs in which a law degree is preferred, which was also up slightly from the class of 2012, when 9.5 percent of all graduates held such jobs.

However, the percentage of 2013 graduates reported as unemployed and seeking work also rose slightly to 11.2 percent this year from last year, when 10.6 percent of 2012 graduates were reported as unemployed and seeking work.

The percentage of positions funded by law schools also increased incrementally this year from last year, from 3.9 percent for all 2012 graduates to 4 percent for the class of 2013.” [Emphasis mine]

Could you imagine if dental and medical school graduates faced such odds of entering their chosen field?!?! They would raise hell, on all fronts. In contrast, JDs seem to have passively accepted this arrangement.

Pennsylvania’s Lawyer Job Market: The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette published an article from Zack Needles, entitled “Legal job market still tough for law school graduates.” Check out his strong opening:
“Nine months after graduation, area law schools — with the exception of the University of Pennsylvania Law School — were lucky if more than half of their graduating classes had found full-time, long-term employment that required bar passage, according to data recently released by the American Bar Association.

Those numbers were more or less in line with the national average.

As Legal Intelligencer affiliate The National Law Journal reported, only 57 percent of 2013 graduates nationwide were able to obtain long-term, full-time jobs that required bar passage. The single outlier among area schools was Penn Law, which ranked fourth nationally in that metric.

Of Penn Law’s 259 graduates, 222, or 85.7 percent, were able to secure full-time, long-term jobs that required bar passage and were not funded by the school itself, according to the ABA.” [Emphasis mine]

Yes, even the University of Pennsylvania Law School – rated as the 7th best law school in the nation, according to US “News” & World Report – could not place 14.3% of its 2013 Class into real legal jobs. What a thriving "profession," huh? Remember, this is the type of school that attracts the best applicants and students. If many of them are in this boat, then how are YOU going to fare with your TTT law degree?!?!

This Was the Case Last Year, As Well: Back on April 9, 2013, Jordan Weissmann’s piece, “The Jobs Crisis at Our Best Law Schools is Much, Much Worse Than You Think,” appeared in the Atlantic. Take a look at this portion:

“The barren job market for law school grads has become a familiar reality by now. But here's something that tends to get lost in the story: The problem isn't just about no-name law schools churning out JD's nobody wants to hire. Even graduates at some of the country's top programs are struggling.

At this point, it seems, there are only a small handful of schools that could reasonably be called safe bets.

The American Bar Association recently released its annual collection of jobs placement data from all 202 accredited law schools, and the big picture was, as expected, dreadful. Nine months after graduation, just 56 percent of the class of 2012 had found stable jobs in law -- meaning full-time, long-term employment in a position requiring bar passage, or a judicial clerkship, i.e. the sorts of jobs people go to law school for in the first place. The figure had improved just 1 percent compared to the class of 2011.

Meanwhile, a full 27.7 percent were underemployed, meaning they were either in short-term or part-time jobs, jobless and hunting for work, or enrolled (read: burning cash) in another degree program.
At some of the most prestigious law schools in the country, the numbers were only marginally better. Below, I've listed the top 25 programs in the U.S. News rankings, along with their underemployment score as calculated by Law School Transparency. Past the top 9, underemployment hits double digits. Outside of the top 15, it mostly hovers around 20 percent[.] [Emphasis mine]

“Higher education” pays off for the academic thieves. The pigs view their victims as mere student loan conduits. Again, the “professors” and deans are paid up front, in you – while you are chained down with outrageous debt totals.

Conclusion: Look at the student debt figures again, people. The U.S. lawyer job market is shrinking, thanks to outsourcing, LPOs, software, greater access to case law and statutes, etc. Wait until predictive coding goes into full effect. At this point in time, you should only consider law school if you fall into one of the following three categories: preferred, protected and seriously connected. Otherwise, you will likely incur an additional $120K-$170K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt – and end up landing a job where you make less than $45K per year. Do the math, kids.


  1. So JRA had a 50% chance of getting a job but managed not to get one? Must be a loser. At his blog, he says taking the bar exam was "not worth the effort." Way to make your $200,000 borrowed investment pay off, buddy.

    And that disgusting picture of him and his partner needs to be taken down.

  2. "Fifty-seven percent of all 2013 law school graduates were employed in full-time, long-term legal jobs requiring bar passage as of Feb. 15 . . ."

    Those applying to law school have to understand that employment is not 57% across the board. It's far higher at top law schools, and far lower at the low-tier law schools. God help any applicant to places like Indiana Tech Law School or Cooley who believes that they have a 57% chance of finding a "full-time, long-term legal jobs requiring bar passage".

    You once again hit the nail on the head, Nando. How anyone thinks that attending a lower-ranked law school and actually paying for the experience is a good career move is beyond me. I guess there's no shortage of fools.

    1. Hell, Indiana Tech is not even certain to obtain accreditation. Its graduates may not even be eligible for the bar. (They will be, of course, because the ABA hands out accreditation like breath mints.)

  3. 455,

    Fuck off paintroach. If you're so sick of looking at Adams's picture, why do you keep coming to this site? Hmm?

    Get. Lost.

  4. It should also be noted that of the 57% of FT, long-term, bar passage-required jobs, many of these jobs simply don't pay well. It's not uncommon to see small law firms offer $35-45k to associates and you'd better believe you're working 60+ hours and expected to come in on weekends.

    Another aspect that seems to be overlooked is that with the enormous oversupply of law school grads and underemployed attorneys, small law firms and unprestigious employers can afford to be VERY picky about hiring. I've seen so many small law firms who practice criminal defense, SSDI, consumer bankruptcy, PI, etc. who ask for "exceptional academic credentials," law review, clerking experience, and several years of experience for a job that pays $50-60k. You have to have uncommon accomplishments (top 20%, law review, clerking, etc.) to land a common job in law.

    These kids need to understand that pursuing their "dreams" is sometimes deluded and idiotic. Why is going to law school a "dream" in the first place? Who in their right mind dreams about executory springing interests or the Rule in Shelley's Case? Because that's what law school is. These kids who say their "dream" or "passion" is to go to law school usually don't have a clue what they're getting into. And law schools will ruthlessly exploit this information asymmetry until the cows come home. But, thank God, it appears the cows are beginning to come home.

  5. Great point, Charles. In fact, the law schools count on applicants misinterpreting this 57% figure, as it allows all the lower-tier schools to ride the coattails of the T13.

    But then, these are the same schools that misrepresented their employment statistics for decades in much the same fashion.

    These people are full of half-truths and outright lies. Scammers gonna scam, and shills gonna shill.


    Well, actually, they are, as per LSAC applicants are down 9% over last year. But still, the applicant curve should be much, much flatter.

    Seriously, guys, go do something else with your lives. Unless your name is Charles Emerson Winchester III, Law School is currently a sucker's bet, and it won't be better for some time to come.

    1. "Gentlemaaan, Gentlemaaan!"

  7. Lemminz, why do law schools employ so many of their own graduates???

    Total Grads:
    2012 = 46,346
    2013 = 46,776

    Total JD-Full-Time-Long-Term ("long term" = 1 year)
    2012 = 56.2% or 26,046 people
    2013 = 57.0% or 26,662 people


    2012 school employs you for one yr only = 1,779
    2013 school employs you for one yr only = 1,884


    2012 is actually 24,267 persons = 52.36% of class
    2013 is actually 24,778 persons = 52.97% of the class

    VOILA! Job market improved a whopping 0.0061% year-over-year!

    Gold plated Benzs all around!!

  8. 4:55 AM, the problem is that JRA is a parasite. He has no problem telling the world at large how great his decision was to go to law school, how smart he was for doing it, and how it was the best choice he ever made after the fact. He also feels free to lecture others about how they should adopt his views. The fact that he is unemployable, or that if he gets a job it will be a job he could have gotten before law school, is lost on him - probably due to a heavy case of cognative dissonance.

    But JRA feels no sense of responsibility, see, becuase he is more than content to let the taxpayer eat the loss under IBR. In fact, he sees this not as a bug, but a feature!

    I'm no friend of Boomers, but it's no wonder they call scholastic-welfare-queens like JRA "slackers." No one else with a shread of personal responsibility could feel so willfully proud about what they've done in these circumstances.

    1. That's an excellent analysis of a truly trashy person. It's also an excellent argument for both annual and lifetime limits on student loans.

    2. This is Mr. Infinity's latest response from JD Junkyard:

      I do not like to admit defeat, but I can admit that I was wrong. Law school was perhaps a waste of my time and to be honest, I would like to be done with it all. You will not see any blogs by "Mr. Infinity" any longer, as I feel that it is truly time to retire him. I know I have said the same thing before. I e-mailed Nando and told him that I was sorry for the last few years. While I did not agree with the overall tone of his blog, I do realize that what he did caused at least a few people to rethink their life strategy and ask themselves if they really wanted to go to law school. In that sense, his blog served a purpose.

      I have been a troll for the last few years. Part of me had hoped that something good would come out of law school. Maybe there is some shred of hope left, but it was probably not worth investing three years time and a boatload of money on. I was wrong.

      It is time for me to start over in life. I am young enough to do something. Contrary to popular belief, I do not plan on living off IBR. That is no life for me, my wife, or child.

      I wish you all the best and truly understand your anger towards me. You will no longer see my "pro law school message" or "anti-scamblogs."

      Thank you.

  9. A lot of 57% legal jobs are low paid jobs. Why take out $100K to make such a little income? No thanks.

  10. I'm a 1972 graduate of fordham law school. I was able to get a job in the state court system and ultimately get on the bench. I am now retired on a nice pension and benefit package. I have no regrets about my decision to go to law school.

    1. I wouldn't either, if I'd graduated in 1972. But, I graduated 35 years after that into a world that had as much in common with 1972 as it did with the world of Socrates himself. But, hey. It worked in the 70s, so it MUST be a good idea, right?

    2. Lol! I know.

      I hear the Roman Empire is a happening place. What's that? It fell?

      Well, I hear the Byzantine Empire is a terrific...

      What? That fell too?

      Never mind.

  11. Try graduating from Fordham today, asshole. The school is a shithole. But things change in 40 years, don't they? Now if you go here, you'll go $150K into the tank and your best hope is to get small law.

    1. I love to watch "losers" suffer! I'm retired too, live overseas, money no factor as a "seventies" grad.....I'm free!
      You were just born too late and have no future and I'm glad for your entire generation! Happy in retirement "baby boomer."

  12. I do not like to admit defeat, but I can admit that I was wrong. Law school was perhaps a waste of my time and to be honest, I would like to be done with it all. You will not see any blogs by "Mr. Infinity" any longer, as I feel that it is truly time to retire him. I know I have said the same thing before. I e-mailed Nando and told him that I was sorry for the last few years. While I did not agree with the overall tone of his blog, I do realize that what he did caused at least a few people to rethink their life strategy and ask themselves if they really wanted to go to law school. In that sense, his blog served a purpose.

    I have been a troll for the last few years. Part of me had hoped that something good would come out of law school. Maybe there is some shred of hope left, but it was probably not worth investing three years time and a boatload of money on. I was wrong.

    It is time for me to start over in life. I am young enough to do something. Contrary to popular belief, I do not plan on living off IBR. That is no life for me, my wife, or child.

    I wish you all the best and truly understand your anger towards me. You will no longer see my "pro law school message" or "anti-scamblogs."

    Now it's time to go do something with my life and stop trolling around these blogs. Good luck to you all and wherever your endeavors take you.

    Thank you.

    1. It's a shitty thing to say, but you're the kind of personality that keeps the law school scam going. I'm sure you busted your ass as an undergrad and took pride in getting accepted by, and attending, your law school. You probably had to work your ass off in law school, and were the proudest man on the planet when you graduated. And now you're seeing the reality of today's legal job market and reevaluating your decision.

      Just admit that you got scammed, buddy.

      I hope that you can find success in your endeavors. But just remember that you're not alone; and that your story could really help people from falling into the same trap.

    2. Well that begs the question; if you do not plan on "living off IBR," how oh how will you pay back the massive amount of loans you owe?

    3. Students who bust their asses as undergrads usually don't go to Western New England law school. There's always been something fishy about this guy's story.

  13. Mr Infinity surrendered.

    1. You cannot deny reality forever. But remember, law school lost their #1 fanboy.

  14. 624,

    Oh, kiss my black booty, Joshua Adams. I bet you'd be singing a different tune if you hadn't bought that URL and accidentally outed yourself. Now you're
    just trying to appear concilatory and "reasonable" in case a prospective employer googles you to see what you've been up to.

    Sour-grape it all you want - but if you hadn't spent all that time making inane troll posts, you MIGHT have actually passed the bar exam.

    You certainly get ***DISGUSTED*** by seeing your own picture, don't you? LOL, are you still claiming that you "enjoy" being featured on this site? And have you fed your pet paintroach today?

  15. At 6:54 am this morning, I received the following email, with subject “I am sincerely sorry, from


    I imagine you will post this on your blog. I would rather that you did not, but I understand, as you have a message to get out. I would like to say that I am truly sorry for the last few years of fighting with you. I wanted very badly to believe that I was not wasting three years of my life as a law student, but now I do not know anymore. While I strongly disagreed with how you portrayed your message, I must say that what you have done has probably helped a lot of people think twice about going to law school.

    I know that you will probably not want to forgive my actions. I am aware that I have bickered with you for the last three and a half years and have caused you and the other scambloggers a lot of heartache. I have been somewhat of a troll as well.

    I am truly done with my "pro law school blogs." As a law graduate with one year out of law school I am realizing that perhaps the law is not for me. I now prepare to embark on a new path in life. I still try to hold on to some hope that law school was somehow worth it, but I also realize that I am probably not the type of person who should have went to law school. I had hoped that my blog message and remaining positive would somehow help me, and maybe others, who were dealing with the mental anguish of having the pressure to do something with their degree. Truthfully, I spent the last couple of years in law school wondering if it would be worth it. I wondered if I would be able to pass the bar and find a job. I hoped that I would climb out of the poverty that I was in through law school. I now know that is not the path to the middle class or upper class life that I wanted.

    While I will probably never agree with the poop pictures and the off color remarks, I am sending this letter to you as a way to say that I am sorry. If you want to say that you have won, that is fine.

    I will probably still continue to look for legal work with the hope that my degree is worth something. However, I will not tell others via the internet to blindly go to law school. My time with "Law School Fail" and "Mr. Infinity" draws to a close.

    I wish you and your family the best. Again, I am sorry for all of the ridiculous fighting over the last few years. Good luck with your endeavors.

    "Mr. Infinity"

    In the last analysis, the law school pigs have financially raped hundreds of thousands of people - and this kid is offended that I accurately depict these sick in$titution$ as toilets, Dumpsters, and cesspools. The cockroaches have ruined him financially as well, and at least he sees that now. Then again, you can't deny reality forever.

  16. Wow, that's a mighty fine email. Looks like Adams is now using his Brooklyn Law School-honed writing skills (along with a dash of that faaaaamous BLS polish) to get what he wants. Think it'll work?

  17. To be honest, there would have never been a Mr. Infinity or WTLS had I not started going back and forth with Nando. At one time I was proud of law school and my accomplishments, and I came here to post. I was offended that I was called a cockroach, and I let my feud with Nando go on for far too long. Yes, I took it way too far. After my current fellowship ends, I plan on being done with law. It's a nasty chapter in my life and one that I am proud to be finished with.

    My plan for the future? It may not be the greatest, but I figure a cheap community college route and study of web development/software development is the best route for me.

    I have actually, believe it or not, told people to not go to law school when asked. Sure, my blogs didn't say as much, but I never would tell a person to their face to go to law school. Now that my blog is gone, you do not have to worry about me doing the same.

    I did not post this to "save face." I could just change my name if I wanted to do that. Furthermore, I do not plan to applying to any more legal jobs out there, so have no worries of legal employers finding me. Futhermore, I have no plans on taking the bar exam at this point. I am done with it. It has all left a sour taste in my mouth.

    My advice to anyone reading this, as Nando said, I have been set back financially hugely by law school. I was once gung ho about law school but those feelings are long dead. After a year of mental anguish over applying to job after job, it's hard to not have a sour outlook on it all.

    A very sour outlook.

    1. The question asked on the JD Junkyard is are you going to retract your e-book from Amazon?

    2. Please keep people posted on your progress. You're not the only one out there who got burned by the law school scam; and folks are looking for ways to get out of this shit business and actually pay their student loans.

      You made a smart call on ditching the law. Nobody is going to hire you because there just aren't any jobs available anymore. And how these law schools get away with their outright misrepresentations of today's legal job market is beyond despicable.

      Maybe you can get your CDL and drive the big rigs. Maybe you can join the military--or even the French Foreign Legion. But I have to wonder whether anyone's going to loan you any more money to go back to even so much as a community college at this point.

      I've lurked TTR and other scamblogs for years now, and can't help but wonder how many people are in your position now (even those who actually passed the bar). I know that I've grown to despise the entire U.S. legal and financial systems, and am wondering when this whole edumacation racket is going to crumble in true Madoffian fashion. And do understand that it's not a matter of if, but when.

      There's a special corner in hell waiting for the perpetrators of the law school scam, and I hope the growing ranks of unemployed, indentured and flat-out pissed off attorneys are going bring some real justice to these sonsobitches.

    3. i am an engineer, and i believe that what's happening currently to law school education and the lawyering profession is a canary-in-the-coal-mine indicator for the future of professions and professional training at large. to wit: that apprentice-like training for technical endeavors will (or already has) become the smartest career choice for most people.

      but one thing I have to say about Mr Infinity is this: he admitted he was wrong. for engineers, this is no big deal- we're wrong all the time about expected outcomes and first passes at things. thats why there are Beta software versions, bug patches, contract changes, etc.

      but when engineer A is wrong, he mans up to it, admits it, learns, and fixes the problem. and the other engineers give him a bit of grief maybe, but they accept it and go forward with the solution bc tomorrow it might be them.

      so I suggest that you legal-types accept Mr Infinity's apology and possibly even allow him to join your movement. to do otherwise would be kindof a dick move. It's not like he hasnt shown that he's willing to get behind a cause.

      thats my $0.02 at least.

  18. 356,

    Dude, my advice to you at this point is the same thing I've been telling the fucking Paintroach - with no decent full-time job or assets, PSLF is the ONLY way to get out of such an enormous amount of debt. That means you have to find a government job. With hiring being what it is in the Bootyconomy, you are unlikely to get past the FIERCE competition for an office job. It doesn't matter, though - I would GLADLY be a high school janitor for 10 years if it was the only way to close out a 300k debt that I couldn't otherwise repay. So stop being a snob and take any government job you can get. Don't be like the Roach and turn your nose up at such work. (The Roach is not a snob, btw - he's just holding out for an office job where he can goof off and watch YouTube videos all day.)

    1. Or leave the country.

      Instant Screwing.

      Just add Water.

  19. Let's not forget that Adams started at Western New England, a pitiful fourth-tier roach trap. When he transferred to Brooklyn, he most likely got zero dollars in genuine financial aid, meaning money he didn't have to borrow. So all along, he was making really stupid decisions while ignoring very obvious market signals of his own worthlessness.

    While the day of reckoning drew closer and closer, he remained careless, arrogant and boastful about the foolish risks he was taking. He even encouraged others to do the same. To top it off, he wasted time and money playing the "world-traveling law student" instead of learning legal skills, job-hunting skills, writing skills, anything that could have helped him get out of the hole he dug for himself.

    So I don't have much sympathy for Mr. infinity. For his wife and child, yes. But not for him.

  20. Nando, did you see this?

    While this does not involve its law school, NKU has my vote as the first public law school to close.

    Northern Kentucky University will lay off as many as 20 faculty and staff members as it cuts nearly 50 positions to deal with budget woes, the Cincinnati Enquirer reported. The university’s president, Geoffrey S. Mearns, said the budget problems stemmed from a smaller state subsidy and increased pension contributions the institution must make.

    Three of the 14 faculty positions to be cut are occupied, and about half of the 35 staff positions are, Mr. Mearns said. No tenured or tenure-track professors are being terminated, he added. The university had asked all its divisions earlier this year to plan for a 5-percent budget reduction.

  21. Well Mr. Infinity was right about one thing, regardless of the fact the scam blogs are absolutely right Law School and the narcissistic profession law is, the scam blogs are real downers. If you read them long enough, you can become depressed, actually angry about the whole situation. To his credit, misguided or not. Mr. Infinity tried to bring some positive outlook to the situation.

    1. I do not know if I will discuss law school much anymore. I like to think of it as an experiment that was expensive and a setback. I plan on trying to not lament over it, focusing on the fact that I have a long life ahead of me. However, I do feel bad for those who have been "ruined" by law school, as they put it. I have no plans on ressurecting my site, but if I do, I will probably focus on how I am doing outside of law and how I am progressing on a different path. Maybe I can be an inspiration for those who are changing career paths from law or salvaging their lives after a failed stint in law. I have a lot of confidence in the route I am taking and I wish I would have started it years ago.

      The first time I ever saw a scamblog was in the middle of my first year at law school. The whole idea depressed me as I read it. However, at the time I felt as if it was my only option. I had just relocated across the United States and was doing pretty decent in law school. I figured I could run with it and think positively and maybe make it out with a better than average outcome. I believe that type of thinking is natural for law students.

      As for not passing the bar, I was already kind of skeptical of the profession at this point and I think that my own thoughts held me back. Going to Egypt was not the smartest idea at the time, I am sure, but looking back I had a great time in Egypt and learned a ton about life, myself, and spent quality time with my wife before having a baby, and that is worth more to me than passing the bar and still being unemployed.

      I do not see myself as a scamblogger at this point. However, I would say that I am sympathetic to many of the individuals, having gone through the same trials myself. I can easily admit that I was wrong and I am wrong often.

      As for school, I plan on funding most of it myself. The community college here is not too expensive, and I figure buckling down with a low paying job and working a couple of years at something I can really enjoy in life and be productive at will make me a much happier person in the end.

      I do not believe that it is impossible to do well in the law, and people will tell me that they did great out of law school. But, as it stands now, I do not see myself doing that well in the profession or having the same type of love for it that I thought I would two or three years ago.

  22. Hi Josh. This is John Koch.

    I think I understand your progression from confusion to anger to wanting to just pull out and just get on with your life.

    Let the facts speak for themselves:

    Nando has only a fraction of the law school debt that Adams and I have and will likely pay it all off and in the past Nando has said that he has been making double payments on the debt when he can.

    Nando was a scholarship student as well, and Adams and I were not and so we took on a lot of debt in this 20 plus year unchanging system of student lending.

    Cryn Johannsen it seems has a wealthy father who is a law firm partner and I was shocked to learn that after having collaborated with Cryn on some media stuff that all amounted to bullshit and trivial drivel.

    Paul Campos-just as Nando and Cryn- has no real skin in the game with a very tragic and dire debt situation and life destroying circumstances and neither did the whole cadre of Campos followers.

    And then there was David Anziska who took a poke at one of his many class action attempts, and David has no skin in the game either but just as Nando and Cryn and Campos, David is another do gooder with a cause and wanting to so called "help" a situation and God bless them all, they even want to "help" the people that are really harmed.

    Then John Koch and Joshua Adams had a back and forth for a while and the Outside the Law School scamblog, which is authored by a lot of people with no skin in the game either insofar as student loan debt goes and all of the life destroying results that go with all of that.

    As I say, the OLLS blog posted a lot of comments about my grandfather sucking cocks in a construction toilet and sticking fingers up the assholes of construction workers, and that is a pure product of the fallacy of blogging as a means to political change.

    And so, Alan Collinge was kicked out of Zucotti Park in the middle of the night and Alan Collinge at one point in time decided that nando and Cryn were not worth working with and maybe that is because Collinge figured out that Nando and Cryn had not skin in the game in terms of the debt.

    I hope Adams and I will go through a healing process and I hope someday that Nando will remove the picture of his wife and drop both me and Adams, whom are the only two scambog commenters that really have the impossible debt and all of the life destroying results, financially and mentally and emotionally.

    Tamanaha is a cool cat and is on the sidelines and the Jobless Juris Doctor fled the scene long ago and the scamblogs, IMHO, are a very dark and bad chapter of my life and the worst years of my life were pre scamblog era and all behind me now and those years of indebted stress and anxiety will never be back and the best years of my life are gone and as a stressed out debtor.

    God Bless America.

    Jesus Paul Campos, let the Adams thing go. Nando will drop the picture if you ask him to as a fellow outsider and do gooder without the dire debt and shitty life that me and Adams have.

    I forgot to mention that the troll that calls me "Paintroach" is a lawyer and is the troll on the Debbie Schlussel blog that called himself: "Status Monkey"

    You can google a string such as: "Status Monkey Debbie Schlussel worshipping the black booty Obama" and you will see what I mean.

    I emailed Debbie Schlussel about him and she wrote back and said she hates the Status Monkey troll but even Debbie Schlussel can't get rid of him because he uses proxy servers.


  23. 254,

    So! If everyone needs to have "skin in the game," I guess you and Adams should just have a blog where you talk to each OTHER. No, wait - that could be accomplished by you to morons emailing each other!

    The only reason you don't see any benefit to the scamblogs is because you are a selfish Roach-fuck who doesn't care about anything but himself. Thousands of potential victims dissuaded from taking out student loans? Who cares? You've still got YOUR debt, and that's all that matters to you, right? Not the trillion dollars that everyone else owes - just your own debt. That's all that matters. You are the definition of a sociopath.

    Maybe someone could pay you to kiss the male black booty that you are so interested in, yes? Say, 25 cents per smack? That'd be about 1.5 million kisses to pay off your debt. Given your level of enthusiasm for the subject at hand, you could probably knock that job out in about 27 hours. That's assuming you can average 15 or so kisses per second. But I'm confident you are equal to the task.

    1. Don't worry, Painter befriended Mr. Infinity, he'll befriend you too. The three of you can hang out together.

  24. May 4, 2014 at 2:54 PM

    What would it take for the people on this blog to get rid of YOU?


    Back on March 20, 2012, Hamilton Nolan published a Gawker piece labeled "It Is Now Completely Clear to Everyone That Law School Is for Suckers." Here is the full text of that post:

    "We must admit that we will never ever tire of directing your attention to the accumulation of evidence that "law school" is, by and large, a massive fraud perpetrated upon society's most overacquisitive young driftabouts, and one whose effect is to turn out a massive class of highly indebted functionaries whose skill set is not only undeveloped to the point of worthlessness, but that, when developed, is, for the most part, detrimental to the function of justice. The fact that law school's popularity is crumbling away as the magnitude of the systemic scam becomes ever more apparent can only be taken as a redeeming ray of hope for the future of our nation's collective critical thinking skills.

    The NYT graces us with the following update in the war against administrative penury: "The organization behind the Law School Admission Test reported that the number of tests it administered this year dropped by more than 16 percent, the largest decline in more than a decade."

    Be not dissuaded from your path, America's postgraduates. Go forth and do anything you want in this world, except going to law school. Lots of places to see and whatnot out there in the wide, wide world. Together, we can return this nation's twentysomethings to the dissolute pool of broke—but debt-free—slackers that it once was. God bless you all."

    Even non-lawyers are pointing this out to prospective students. At this point, those who are applying to law school are the same dunces who need to read the warning labels on the sides of paint cans.

  26. The problem is that the previous generation has completely brainwashed this generation into believing that education is the answer. I have broken down the math and even if you graduate law school and undergrad with no student debt whatsoever AND WITH big law job to boot, you are still worse off than someone with a big city municipal job, such as a cop, UNLESS you manage to keep the big law job for more than 4 years and successfully make partner and/or lateral to a similarly situated inhouse/mid - law job. This is probably going to be far less than one percent of law school graduates.

    I also believe that in their heart of hearts the lemmings do not believe that it's top or bust. Even if they say "I don't have to worry because I'll be at the top of the class, etc." they are really thinking "these scam bloggers are a bunch of Losers and I'll be fine even if I am in the bottom of the class. I won't make 160k right out the bat, I'll make 65k and work my way up." Putting aside that 65k with student loans and 7 years of education is peantus, that outcome, which is not a good one, is extremely hard to attain.

    In the end, the preceding paragraph illustrates the problem. I make 6 figures in a decent legal job, and I have minimal student loan debt (I'll be done in 3 months). Despite this fact, I know my time is limited in this profession: I Have conversed with some extremely powerful people in this profession, and their explicit prognosis is that lawyers, myself included, will have to work alot harder for alot less and with limited job security. When I point this out to the lemmings, ie that I am in an extremely enviable position as lawyers go, and yet, comparatively speaking, things are looking bad for me (and absolutely abysmally for everyone else), I am dismissed as a loser or someone trying to keep them out of a good field because I want it all to myself. This is the case no matter what.

    I conclude every don't go to LS speech with the same spiel, the spiel goes something like this (with various variants): "so you believe you are going to beat the odds correct? (Some variation of yes is provided). Well then, why not do a MLM program, the top of the pyramid in an MLM scheme is going to blow most attorneys out the water and you work less and you can always walk away with no debt if you don't like it. Since you are the type to best the odds, youll dome fine. And If money Is not your passion, social work is really the best way to help the poor (cite personal examples of how social workers helped my mother when I was younger. (Response: some variant of I want to be a lawyer and you are not going to dissuade me)."

    You see, when other lawyers warned me not to go to law school, including a judge, Boomer family members all pressured me, and the reasoning was without fail the same: eventually it will pay off. And that is at the core of the psychology informing the lemming mindset. They don't believe it is possible for the education not to pay off given what they have been told since birth. No matter what they say, also informed by the Boomerisms of never showing weakness, they don't just think they'll be in the top of the class, They think it will pay off in the end even if they are not in the top of the class. They don't understand globalism, global markets, labor surplus consequences, particularly acute for laywers, and/or the complete lack of political protection for white collar workers generally, and Lawyers in particular.

    I don't Feely sympathy for me because I should have taken the good advice I was offered, but at least I had the good fortune to avoid the debt. Going into a shit field with no debt hurts alot, especially when you lose prime years of your life to enter it, but going into debt to do it is utterly catastrophic.

    Keep up the good work guys.

    1. The above is brilliant. I may copy it elsewhere but for now I'll simply say this.

      He's 100% right.

      You can start off as a cop at 18. Retire at 40. Start an entire secondary career as many of them do in private security, investigations, etc.

      The point is, the years of no debt and starting early are a huge advantage which can't be overcome. As the above poster said, prime years which are key and should be maximized for value instead of wasted.

      Any fool Lemming who graduates today is at least 25-26, and in the hole 6 figures @ the starting gate vs. the 18 yr. old uneducated cop who already at 25 has the starting-gate attorney beat to high hell.

      The less than 1% outcome material is, I would estimate, also dead-on. In other words, the odds are at lot worse than you think.

      The above poster luckily had no debt and does make a good salary but is by far the exception and not the Rule - and he knows it.

      The question is: Do you Lemmings?

    2. But who would want to be a cop? They retire young for a reason while many lawyers keep working until they die for a reason.

    3. Last week I would have told you that you were an idiot. This week I wish I had a time machine.

    4. Every cop I know is obese with health issues related to smoking, drinking and having worked night shifts. These idiots hear "$100k/yr" as a cop but forget that's before taxes, pension, and healthcare contributions. After all that's taken out and you factor in living expenses, it's a living wage. Most cops have side jobs as electricians, security, etc. The only good thing is that they don't have the debt so the salary is already positive income. But I don't know who keeps coming on here saying being a cop is a ticket to a million dollars and some cushy lifestyle. It isn't. Plus every day you are dealing with pond scum and working midnight shifts. I have cops in my family and they are very bitter and nasty. They are not friendly or smart people. Not saying lawyers are. But enough about the fantasy of the millionaire cop living happily ever after fat off a pension of $200k/yr. It doesn't happen, at least for new hires nowadays. Maybe for boomers. The hire-ups in police departments do well, but they are boomers. A 25 year old joining a police force nowadays is not going to get nearly the same deal with pension reforms taking place and salaries being changed.

      The money isn't there for pensions and there is definitely a day of reckoning coming, I don't care how powerful you think your public employee union is.

    5. So, 100k a year for someone in their late 20s who has no student loans, no opportunity cost, and has been working for pay since their early 20s, where said person will receive a pension at 45 and is also eligible for all the sidework you mentioned, and where said person cant be fired without cause, is receiving only a "living wage," after all those deductions you mentioned. Fair enough, you might be right. Let me ask you then, in light of how bad that is, how bad is being a lawyer?

      Most lawyers will never makes 6 figures, and if they do, it will be for a brief period. They will have high student loan in addition to all of the other deductions that apply to cops, and those payments will be monstrous. They will have at least 7 years of opportunity cost, and they will likely not have earned real pay until their mid to late twenties. They will have no job security. They will have no political protection. They will have no pension, and not only won't they retire at 45, they likely won't retire period. Also, not a single politician or advocacy group will shed a single tear if a lawyer's life is ruined.

      You are on here telling us that 100k a year and a pension at 45 for someone with no debt and opportunity cost is not that great of a deal given taxes and cost of living, and you may very well be right, but if that is bad, then lawyers are downright fucked, because I don't know many lawyers that are ever going to top that (unless they are already rich by birth).

      I'll also say this, if a lawyer with 200k in debt complained about a 100k salary (without a pension and with no job security), they would be fucking crucified. Yet you are on here telling me that a cop who gets that is getting a raw deal. And again, you might be right. However, as a cop or other blue collar unionized city worker, at least people in society won't want to fuck you, and politicians and citizens will advocate for your rights so you get a living wage that exceeds what most private sector workers earn (with job security).

      Also, I never said being a cop will make you a millionaire living a bottles and models lifestyle, unless you work for one of the uber wealthy counties or you go into private security as an owner when you retire (very difficult, as difficult as making partner at big law). I am saying that as bad as those kinds of jobs may be, I.e. cop, fireman, plumber, electrician, etc. (For big municipalities), it beats being a lawyer 99/100 times. Accordingly, lemmings are better suited trying to get one of those jobs before spinning the wheel at the higher ed casino, where they'll likely graduate with debt and never make even the moderate wage you stated.

  27. Spider-Man's new nemesis should be Roach-Man. They both live in Gotham. His alter ego is a 50 yr old man that lives off his elderly parents and refuses to pay his debts. When's the last time you made a payment on your student loans?

    Silly me. It would take Batman, Superman, Spider-Man and all the rest of the superheroes to get this parasite to quit sucking its parents dry.

  28. Dear Nando,

    I wrote a couple of posts ago about my plight. I didn't use my name but you can call me "successful loser" from now on.

    Today, I went before the Family Court Judge on my ex's Order To Show Cause why my ex's alimony should be increased. After an evidentiary hearing, the hanging judge increased the alimony by $250. If you recall, my ex hired an investigator to pull my credit report and she discovered that I paid off my car last month. The monthly payment was $400 so naturally my ex filed an order to show cause to get that extra $400 in addition to the obscene alimony I already pay her.

    At the hearing, I explained to the Judge that my new insurance premium went up by $150 a month. The bitch of a judge replied: "Have you looked into Obamacare? Have you shopped around in the marketplace?" Of course, this is coming from a public "servant" who gets a platinum insurance plan at no cost. I told the judge that I had a gold plan because my family has a history of diabetes and I need that plan in case I get it. She told me I could downgrade to the bronze plan with a high deductible. When I told the judge I would get a new car, she said, "what's wrong with the one you just paid off?" This same judge drives a 2013 Range Rover while I am driving a 2009 Honda Civic.

    I am thinking of appealing the judge's decision. Business has been drying up this year as there are fewer paying clients and they are choosing to go to inexperienced lawyers who charge $200 for a DUI case.

    I have to complete my CLE requirements for my term by the end of this year. I don't know where I will find the money to pay for these expensive and useless courses.

    Lemmings, think really hard about sending that seat deposit check. This is a miserable business. Notice I did not say profession. I paid my dues years ago and I still struggle to pay the bills.

    Anyway, I think I am going to a bar. Although I am a recovering alcoholic, today, I am thirsty for a pint of "forget my problems." Take care Nando. Keep fighting the good fighting against these roguish law school scammers.

    Successful Loser

  29. Nando, why do you keep displaying comments about the DISGUSTING John Koch? It's so revolting to read about such a smelly turd - you should remove ALL criticism of him from your site right away! LOL

  30. The US Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that the legal services sector lost 1,200 jobs in April 2014.

    The sector had a 10-year high of 1.18 million jobs in May 2007. According to the April figures, there are 43,600 fewer jobs in the legal services sector than at that high point.

    Good luck to the huge class of 2014!

  31. If you read his blog recently he was applying for jobs at Starbucks and as a dishwasher and he was getting rejected. Even with Mr. Infinity's perennial optimism, it only lasted 1 year after graduation.

    When you look at the archives on TTR you can see just how stubborn he was:

    There, he said: "You fiends of nature forget one thing, IBR. Also, you don't need $75,000 to live well. Case in point: I made $30k in San Francisco, a very expensive city, and traveled internationally twice during this period. Once for 2 weeks in Europe and once for over 2 weeks in the Yucatan. I also paid part of my undergrad tuition and lived in a decent apartment. If I make $75k out of law school I'll be sitting pretty. That's a risk, I, top 18%, am willing to take."

    So you took the risk and it didn't pan out. You were a 1L at WNEC law then. Instead of listening and withdrawing after 1L, you doubled down and transferred to Crooklyn. You could have left after 1L with a manageable amount of debt and been back at In-N-Out Burger as a manager making good money or even as a barista. But you came on here fighting what you thought was the good fight for years. Now you're out of school barely 1 year and conceding that you were wrong. You should have listened back in 2011, but you couldn't be told.

    You need to evaluate your own personal situation before making decisions like law school. Part of the reason I went was because I had the help of my family. My family has money and I was able to land a job through connections. We aren't super-rich but comfortable. Still, you need to the contacts and the financial backing set up to help you out. If you don't have all that in place before starting law school then you're in a rough spot.

    And for all those saying you're better off as a public employee, that's not the case much longer. Maybe for the PSLF angle, but definitely not income. States and municipalities are slashing pensions and reworking the contribution systems so that you have to pay more of your salary into the system. Sure you still have a certain salary, but a cop or fireman making $50k/yr, minus taxes and pension/benefit contributions, also needs a second job to get by. So yeah don't expect that to last forever when cities and states and running enormous deficits paying for pensions with shrinking tax bases.

    1. Big city cops and firemen don't make 50k. They make between 90 and 150k (and in certain wealthy counties more). Their pensions are higher than most lawyers' salaries and they retire in their 40s (between 75 and 140 k with health care for life). These people stick together and vote, so no politician is going to take anything from them, unless the country collapses, which is not the case for this profession. White collar municipal workers might be sacrificed, but not these guys.

      People should only go to law school if they come from a background similar to your's, unless they have extraordinary ability and really want to be a lawyer. However, for people with extreme ability, it is a waste of talent.

    2. You should google "pension reform." Detroit filed for bankruptcy and plenty of pension obligations are being contested in bankruptcy. Christie in NJ changed the pension formula and contribution system for ALL public workers. Cops/Firemen now have to pay more into their pensions, wait longer to retire, and pay a hefty part of their insurance in retirement. Additionally, the legislature is considering a 2% cap on pay increases for police and fire. Pensions might not be abolished, but they are certainly being reworked in light of mounting obligations and shrinking state tax bases. That's a fact.

      They may certainly vote, but the majority of voters in states aren't public employees. After a while taxpayers get sick of seeing taxes go up, mounting debt, etc. and retaliate. Before bridgegate, Christie was re-elected with 60% of the vote here, based on what he did with pension and benefit reform. He didn't have the endorsement of a single public employee union, so their power can seriously be tamped down depending on the political climate.

      I realize it's a state-by-state thing. But you can't honestly say that pensions are set in stone. None of that is guaranteed.

  32. I also forgot to mention that the Status Monkey troll said on the Debbie Schlussel blog that he contributed five thousand dollars to the Virgil Goode Presidential election campaign.

    So a view of the Virgil Goode 5K contributors and from the lawyers for that year would narrow down the list and then the troll can be found.

    Status Monkey is a real bastard and if he has caused Debbie Schlussel all kinds of trouble you can be sure he thinks that his method of proxy server trolling on TTR is a walk in the park.

    The above comments are typical Status Monkey comments and a while ago I figured out that a troll is not limited to trolling in one place but may be trolling in many places.

    Maybe I will email Virgil Goode and ask him if there is a list of his campaign contributors for 2012 and if that list is publicly available.

    Poor Josh Adams is now begging Nando and I feel like all of us have beat the crap out of a very emotionally and psychologically vulnerable person that needs to have allowances made for, or else it is like we are the insensitive ones.

    I tried to appeal to Campos, who is involved in all of this as per his public recommendation to read TTR, but Campos is no soap.

    What Status Monkey knowingly fails to take into account is the 5 times compounded interest that my student loan debt has accumulated.

    In other words, my student loan debt is five times its original amount and beyond any hope of paying off in my lifetime.

    I recommend to everyone to read the work of Alan Collinge and to disregard Cryn Johannsen and to hope that Nando will get through the list of 200 or so law school toilets and without any more distractions and without any more pics of Adams and his innocent wife.

    It can happen and will be a good thing.

    Jesus God I am so afraid of old age and debt and after 20 years I grow more afraid.

  33. National Law Journal is reporting the Deans of Drake, Illinois and Widener are stepping down.

    Mr Infinity has thrown in the towel and now the scamdeans are heading for "sabbatical."

    1. The Dean of USC just stepped down also. Been Dean since 2007. Story on ATL.

      This is like when half the President's cabinet quits half way through the term. Over it.

    2. Time for that sweet Golden Parachute now that the gravy is nearly gone, I guess.

      Low-life scamming POS's.

      Take the money and run. Is that the game now?

    3. Yup. That's the game. Being Dean just isn't fun anymore.

    4. Well why stick around? It's a perfect storm for the law school pigs right now- declining applications, aging and tenured faculties, bond repayment issues, and shrinking budgets. If you are just some salaried pig dean why not cut and run? Why deal with the headaches of trying to shepherd a law school through a financial crisis and make it work for the new economy? Which Deans actually cares about education? The pig deans have (assumingly) milked this cow now for years and years. So what if now at the age of roughly 60 they need to jump ship. When it was boom times with high enrollment being dean was amazing. Now with everything in the shitter they all head for the exits.


    Back on March 11, 2013, Time published an Adam Cohen piece entitled “Just How Bad Off Are Law School Graduates?” Check out the following excerpt:

    “Arizona State University’s law school is attacking head on the growing problem of law school graduates — who are in the fifth year of a near-depression-level job market — not being able to find work. It plans to open its own nonprofit law firm, as the New York Times recently reported, with the goal of keeping 30 recent graduates off the unemployment rolls. Law schools have also been offering public interest fellowships to help recent graduates get a foothold in the legal market — and creating incubators to train solo practitioners.

    But all of this law-school work-making is raising some fundamental questions about whether there are broader forces at work that are permanently altering the legal profession.

    It may seem far off today, but it was not long ago that the good times were rolling for lawyers. In 2007, 91.2% of law school graduates got jobs and salaries were soaring. After the 2008 meltdown, the employment rate was far lower — and the quality of jobs a lot worse. In 2009, just 65.4% of law school graduates got jobs for which they needed to pass the bar.

    A grim sport has emerged of exchanging stories about just how bad things are. Many lawyers are stuck doing tedious, document-intensive contract work for as little as $25 an hour — not the worst job in the world, certainly, but not what many of them envisioned when they spent three years of their lives and $150,000 to get a law degree.

    And there are plenty of worse jobs. “Above the Law,” a website that follows the grim legal market closely, reported one listing on Boston College Law School’s job site that offered an annual salary of just $10,000 which “Above the Law” insisted the firm “had to have known” was “below minimum wage.”

    And it gets worse still. There are a surprising number of job postings for lawyers that offer no salary at all, including government law jobs. That raises the question — as one headline put it — “Would You Work as a Federal Prosecutor — For Free?”

    Any lemming who applied to law school after this point clearly did not do any meaningful research into this economic decision. Hell, the mainstream corporate press was already pointing out that law school was a bad bet for students – years ago! If you don’t bother to perform a basic Google search BEFORE taking on an additional $100K-$70K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt, then you deserve your fate.

    1. "It may seem far off today, but it was not long ago that the good times were rolling for lawyers. In 2007, 91.2% of law school graduates got jobs and salaries were soaring. After the 2008 meltdown, the employment rate was far lower — and the quality of jobs a lot worse. In 2009, just 65.4% of law school graduates got jobs for which they needed to pass the bar."

      I am curious as to whether those that got jobs in 2007 still have them, or has the meltdown effected all lawyers across the board.

  35. Nando, you shouldn't let Adams--or Painter, or any of those other emotional basket cases--post here. Adams, as usual, just wanted to get more attention by claiming to have changed his mind. I suspect he's trying to infiltrate the scamblog movement. You have been warned.

    1. Uh, shitface, John Koch has been here since the beginning. He predates my time here (2012.)

      I find it interesting that nobody but Nando, myself, that Col. Sanders guy, and one or two others were willing to post here with an identifiable handle, and that most of Koch's accusers go anonymous.

    2. But sir, in Project Mayhem, we have no names.

  36. I think this kind of thing has happened before. Roger Magraw wrote in a book FRANCE, 1815-1914: THE BOURGEOIS CENTURY:

    "As in the 1820s frustrated careerism fueled antigovernment feelings. One Orleanist bureaucrat claimed that 'It isn't the workers one should fear, rather it is the déclassés, doctors without patients, lawyers without briefs, all the misunderstood, the discontented, who, finding no place at the banquet-table . . . try to overturn it. In Paris for every 1200 reading for law, 20 achieve fame, 80 fortune, 200 a modest living--the rest vegetate.'"

    I really don't have any skin the game, so to speak. Certainly I have no school loans, or any college degrees. But this problem of debt slavery scares me.

    This Infinity character, for example, is utterly owned by the system. Once he realizes how deep of a hole he has dug, then he will then probably do anything he is asked, since the system completely owns his ass. He is radioactive.

    Anyone ever seen the cartoon Disney movie Pinnochio? Yeah, law school was like "Pleasure Island" for Mr. Infinity, and now he is a jackass and the system owns him!

    Hope he enjoyed his trip to Egypt! Wow! Stunning.


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