Tuesday, October 28, 2014

Fourth Tier Whittier Law School Graduates Face the Bleakest Employment Outcomes


Excellent News!: On October 22, 2014, JD Journal featured a Noelle Price article entitled “Whittier Law School Graduates Most Challenged in Finding Work.” Check out this brutal opening:

“Whittier Law School, located in Costa Mesa, California, suffers from one of the most abysmal employment records in the country, according to the Orange County Register. The school currently enrolls over 500 students, and tuition is $42,000 per year.

Associate dean Martin Pritikin said, “We are by no means satisfied with letting things be. We are working very hard to implement programs and changes that should help our graduates with employment.”

“In the past three years, only one in every four Whittier students obtained full-time, long-term attorney jobs within nine months of graduation. The rate is below half of the national average and is one of the worst employment records in the nation. Using the most recent available data, only Golden Gate University in San Francisco had a lower employment rate in the state of California.” [Emphasis mine]

Yes, those are extremely impressive job prospects, right?!?! Who wouldn’t jump at the chance to incur large sums of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt, for such outcomes?! The piece continues:

“The grim statistics were pulled from an online American Bar Association database, which oversees over 200 accredited law schools in the United States. Whittier does not dispute the statistics, but they did argue that the data does not provide the full picture. Whittier said that it is confident that its employment rates will rise due to recent efforts it has implemented which aim to better prepare students for the job market.

For example, in the fall, the law school applied an “experiential” curriculum that will help students gain real life skills and help them apply their education to their jobs. Pritikin commented, “We think the changes that we’ve made have been earlier, have been more dramatic, have been more comprehensive than what the typical school is doing. We think it puts us ahead.”

The school opened a model courtroom last year, and has made improvements to its career development office. It is also conducting more outreach to potential employers.” [Emphasis mine]

It’s funny to see that the pigs don’t dispute the numbers, while they make a production out of the figures not providing the full outlook. You bitches and hags can pack that “experiential curriculum” up your portly asses. Furthermore, what good is a model courtroom, if the vast majority of your students and grads are not going to work in the legal field, cockroaches?!?! You don’t need such experience, when you end up selling insurance policies or teaching grade school to inner city rodents.


Tuition: Full-time victims of this dump face a tuition bill of $42,400 for the current academic year. In good news, part-time students will only be charged $28,300 for the same school year. At least, the asterisk indicates that this rate includes the $100 SBA fee. Hell, perhaps the cockroaches feel that they are giving you a great deal.


Ranking: As you can see, US “News” & World Report rates WhiTTTTier Law Sewer as a fourth tier piece of garbage. Apparently, lawyers and academics are not that impressed with “model courtrooms,” experiential courses, and upgrades to the career development office. Then again, “professors” and administrators expend these resources in order to attract more lemmings – and to increase their ranking.


The Toilet’s Employment Placement Data: From this page, you can view the Employment Summary for 2013 Graduates. You will note that there were 210 members of this TTTT class. Of that amount, only 56 landed in full-time, long-term positions where bar passage was required.

However, the news gets worse. Out of 210 grads, only 117 reported being employed – in any capacity – within nine months of receiving their law degree. Don’t forget that these responses are self-generated. Five JDs did not furnish their status to the trash pit. This translates to a 57.1 percent “placement” rate, i.e. 117/205. Why is this school not being demolished as we speak?!?! Why the hell are federal taxpayer dollars still being appropriated to this dung heap?!

Hell, only 83 members of this class landed full-time, long-term employment of any kind. If the ABA, NALP or Bob Morse had any integrity, they would publish the placement rate as 40.4 percent, i.e. 83/205. Under Employment Type, you will see that 66 grads reported finding work in law firms. Out of this total, one desperate fool opened a solo shop, whereas 39 were hired by offices of 2-10 attorneys. Another 13 landed jobs in firms of 11-25 lawyers. What great outcomes, huh?!?!


Average Law Student Indebtedness: USN&WR lists the average law student indebtedness - for those members of the WhiTTTTier Law Class of 2013 who incurred debt for law school - as $154,267. Hell, 92% of this waste site’s 2013 cohort took on such sickening debt. In fact, this is the SIXTH-HIGHEST debt figure, among all commodes that provided this info to Bob Morse! Remember that this amount does not include undergraduate debt – and also does not take accrued interest into account, while the student is enrolled.

Conclusion: If you are even considering Whittier Law $chool for a “legal education,” then you should automatically meet the requirements for a brain shunt. If you cannot figure out that this is a TERRIBLE “investment,” then you have NO BUSINESS making any decision that could affect the lives of others. Hell, you should not be permitted to drive a car, waterhead. This truly is one of the absolute worst law schools in the entire United States – and that is saying a lot, when you consider that there are 200 ABA-accredited diploma mills in operation.


  1. "Winning!!"



  2. laughed very hard at this

  3. At this point, one has to wonder what kind of fruitloop would consider enrolling in a fourth tier law school--in one of the WORST legal job markets in the country. Doesn't California have some sort of involuntary commitment statute for people who pose a danger to themselves and the community at large?

  4. You pose a great question by asking why federal taxpayer money is being spent towards expensive tuition and dismal employment outcomes. If these schools believe in their product so much then they should be the ones backing the loans.

  5. Why doesn't this institution dig its hooks into an existing University, like Cooley did? I can see the new promotional material now:

    Whittier School of Law, Haircare, and Tire Realignment
    "At least two thirds of our grads get jobs!"

    1. I laughed out loud.

    2. Aspiring mechanics and hairdressers would be able to obtain dual degrees, no doubt.

  6. Have a look at the recently released "Consumer Information":


    The LSAT scores for this year's entering (cl)ass ranged from 150 at the 75th percentile to 143 at the 25th percentile. Perfectly dreadful. That puts most of the class below—and often well below—the 50th percentile of all people taking the LSAT.

    Who on earth would want to hire these people? Changes to the curriculum and the moot court, "improvements to [the] career development office"—none of that will help the mediocrities of [S]hittier to find jobs.

    What's really astounding is that people are paying as much or more to attend this dunghill as they would pay (if only they were bright enough to get in) at some of the most respected law schools.

    Old Guy

    1. What do all the schools touting "experiential learning" have in common? Terrible student quality. Lipstick on a pig, I agree.

  7. This school is a certified shithole. And nobody can argue refute that.

  8. "Argue"? What the fuck does "argue" mean in this context? Usually "argue" means make a debatable point based off evidence. Whittier is pure bullshit; there's nothing even borderline-debatable about this diploma mill. This school is clearly run by fucking scumbags.

    This cesspool—so fucking worthless that nobody wants to hire its "graduates"—can't place 75% of its "graduates" into positions that the school vouches those students are able to perform with its diploma. This is utterly indefensible.

    25% employed as attorneys? Are you FUCKING serious? Top 25% at a respectable school gets you over $120K depending the your market. Whittier is pure snake oil. Here,, only 25% will win in the FT/LT hunger games. Their reward is what? $30K?

    At this point, the problem isn't even the students. Sure, they're morons. The problem isn't even necessarily the faculty. They might be scum, but their bleeding hearts probably hope that their mentally-deficient students will make it some day...eventually...

    The difference: this isn't a lottery ticket. Less than half of the students get a scholarship. A lottery ticket doesn't cost $150K.

    The problem is with the administrators who keep the 1L size where—assuming those administrators aren't complete mouth-breathers—they should know that they can't find employment for admits. How the fuck can you legitimize OVER 200 new 1Ls when you only place UNDER 70 into positions that you claim they're qualified for?

    Whittier administrators, this is for you: EMPLOYERS YOUR EDUCATION IS WORTHLESS. Ergo, they must not think highly of you on a personal level either.

    The problem is that the administration is able to get financing the exploitation of students.

    Similarly, the agency getting risk-free profits while exploiting the hopes of the ignorant is the problem. This is the essence of a bubble.

    After La Verne, Whittier is next. Good riddance.

    1. The problem is the broken federal student loan boondoggle which allows gullible people to borrow as much as the school wishes to charge. There is no good reason why this school should not be shut down immediately to prevent further waste of taxpayer funds. Unfortunately no one in Congress seems to appreciate the magnitude of the problem. California is a terrible state to attend law school. The legal market is severely over saturated. I have family there and my impression is that there are very few middle class people there. It is all very rich people, who rely on top private firms for their legal needs, and poor people who have no money to pay lawyers. The state budget is a disaster so there are few government positions available.

  9. Does anyone else aside from me find these numbers so insane that instead of sad it's laughable?

    We're talking 1/4th of the class in legal positions. Right off the bat, this means that out of every 100 graduates, 75% don't even work as lawyers.

    Beyond that, of the 25% that do find employment in law, that will run the gamut, as usual, of outcomes being heavily weighted towards low salaries because of the bi-modal outcome distribution plus this toilets' (non) prestige.

    In essence, of the 25% that find work in the legal field, probably 75-90% of them are making $30k or thereabouts while a very few get meaningful clerkships, government or in-house positions and maybe - maybe - 1 or 2 land a job at a big firm.

    In short, this shithole literally Epic Fails 99% of it's students while indebting 92% of them with an average of approximately $155,000 of non-dischargeable student loan debt.

    Am I missing something here or is this school the Poster Child for the law school scam movement?

    1. I still think Cooley is the poster child because of their monstrously huge class sizes. It's just so obvious.

      Whittier is definitely an exemplar case though.

  10. Hey Nando, you forgot one thing on your "Goal Spill". There is this thing out there called a Patent Attorney and other Attorney Types that require engineering or "hard science" undergraduate degrees. The job prospects for this patent attorneys is phenomenal and guess what? You do not need to go to a top 8 law school. In fact, any third or fourth tier school will do just fine and you will be well on your way to $150K plus salary in most of the major markets. Now getting an Engineering degree is a bit more difficult than getting a poly sci or history degree. But well worth it. Maybe we have to me colleges granting worthless poly sci and marketing degrees...maybe we should just abolish education altogether in America...or force people into pre-planned careers like they do in communist nations...#ideasforyournextblog

    1. You have no idea what you are talking about.

    2. The FT/LT numbers indisputable.

      There is an infinitesimal shred of truth to the point about engineering degrees. However, even accepting your ungrounded salary data, the fact is that so many non-engineers enroll that if that fact were accurate, you'd see acceptable NALP data.

      However, the direct and opportunity costs are so high, that your comment doesn't even rise to the level of trolling. You're just spewing bollocks.

      Whittier needs to shrink to 50-75 students. Until then, this place is simply preying on its underinformed victims.

    3. @ 7:38 PM - Nah it should shut it's gates along with the other 99 T3 and T4s.

  11. my spelling above sucks....but ah who cares

    1. It's not just your spelling.

  12. Hey Nando, you forgot one thing on your "Goal" Spill at the top. There is this thing out there called a Patent Attorney and other Attorney Types that require engineering or "hard science" undergraduate degrees. The job prospects for patent attorneys is growing and phenomenal and guess what? You do not need to go to a top 8 law school. In fact, any third or fourth tier school will do just fine and you will be well on your way to $150K plus salary in most of the major markets. Now getting an Engineering degree is a bit more difficult than getting a poly sci or history degree. But well worth it. Maybe we have to many colleges granting worthless poly sci and marketing degrees...maybe we should just abolish liberal arts education altogether in America...or force people into pre-planned careers like they do in communist nations...#ideasforyournextblog

    1. "The job prospects for patent attorneys is growing and phenomenal and guess what? You do not need to go to a top 8 law school. In fact, any third or fourth tier school will do just fine and you will be well on your way to $150K plus salary in most of the major markets."

      Citation needed. Go ahead, I'll wait.

    2. Ipse dixit. Anonymous [hereinafter Knucle-dragger], supra at pp. 10, 12.

    3. That is utter BS. The patent market died back in 2008 and hasn't come back. Back then EE and maybe ME were on life support.

      Everything else requires PhDs and a decade of experience on top of the law degree and patent bar, and you could just skip law school and be a patent agent instead.

      Also if you look at the Big Law firms that do patent work, they all still require top law schools.

      Everything is totally glutted. I know attorneys with STEM degrees that can't even get onto doc review. Doc review! The absolute bottom level of legal jobs, and the firms can even be selective on that. People are really going to claim Big Law can't find patent attorneys? Get real.

    4. It is BS. And everything - including tax and patent - is entirely glutted. You can literally see the decline on various boards and forums dealing with tax and patent over the years.

      Even the NYU Tax LLM has become severely devalued because, quite simply, the downturn in legal work crushed the window for tax back in, yes, as said roughly 2008. And there has been no recovery as of yet to speak of.

    5. LOL at 3:53PM, but it looks like a lot of people beat me too it. A quick google search will turn up scads of comments from patent practicioners in the scamblogs going on about how the market has crashed and how hard it is even for them.

      Shills gonna shill.

  13. Accountants who go into TAX LAW generally do quite well also....
    Again, It's not the law degree its the experiences and education around it that counts.

    1. the 25% of Whittier grads who get full time long term lawyer jobs must all be tax and patent lawyers, right?

    2. So what you're saying is that Whittier admissions knows, prior to admitting a specific student, that an admit's previous education is only thing worthwhile to employers?

      In other words: those, let's say 25 people in the class are prospectively employable with such degrees, but Whittier accepts 185 more, knowing that only about 20% of the remaining morons in the class will get a FT/LT position.

      Are you really trying to reduce the numerator of this equation? Are you fucking serious? It's bad enough already.

      That doesn't support the proposition that this school should be open in the first place.

    3. This is an excellent troll - trying to place the blame further up the education chain.

      is undergrad leaving people with life-destroying amounts of debt? $20-40k in debt won't destroy your debt. You can pay that off with whatever crap office position you can get with a BA. Once you get into the $120-250k+ range that most law grads carry, you're talking about such an enormous sum of money that the only way to pay it off is if you're making six figures.

      Whittier needs to close or slash its class sizes. I can't imagine paying for a piece of diploma paper from this dispensable and unnecessary toilet. How do the legal luminaries who teach at this bunghole sleep at night without heavy alcohol and sedatives?

    4. Sweet Jebus. 3:53/3:57 strikes again. Mr. Infinity, is that you?

  14. Agreed. Complete Troll-spout.

    Obv. the dope didn't see this:


    Read the comments.

    And finally, I seriously doubt that anyone who has the undergrad degrees necessary to work in patent law as a patent attorney (not IP litigation, okay?) would consider a bottom-of-the-barrel school like Whittier knowing that they can easily get into better places with their degree. Not that the end result changes much, as pedigree is pedigree and confined to the T14 or so as it is.

    Bottom-line: Patent isn't what it used to be and one comment nails it quite well: The Boomers aren't going anywhere for a long time and they have secured most of the stable patent jobs out there as it stands.

  15. Great post Nando. Give the following turd of an article a read and consider a write up:


    You know how many people in my TTT class ended up with a "high paying" energy job? Me. That's it. Out of hundreds, just me. And it's the most unstable job I've ever had with the sword of Damocles hanging over my head every second.

    and I didn't get it because of my TTT education either. I got it because of family connections. Nobody gives a fuck about my degree and it set me back an extra 90 thousand dollars.

  16. Whittier...is shittier! Than all but one California law school, that is.

  17. http://www.ocregister.com/articles/school-639125-law-whittier.html

    On October 20, 2014, the Orange County Register published staff writer Keegan Kyle’s piece, “Whittier Law School grads among most challenged in finding work.” Look at this epic opening:

    “Graduates of a Costa Mesa law school struggle to find stable employment more than students from other accredited colleges, according to a Register analysis of law schools nationwide.

    The Costa Mesa school, located on Harbor Boulevard near the I-405, is affiliated with Whittier College and is called the Whittier Law School. More than 500 students attend annually with tuition priced at $42,000.

    “We are by no means satisfied with letting things be,” associate dean Martin Pritikin said. “We are working very hard to implement programs and changes that should help our graduates with employment.”

    Over the past three years, Whittier has reported that about one in every four students obtained full-time, long-term attorney jobs within nine months of graduation – one of the worst track records in the country and less than half the national average.

    In California, only Golden Gate University in San Francisco posted a lower employment rate among 2013 graduates, the most recent year of available data.

    The employment statistics were obtained from an online database published by the American Bar Association, which oversees Whittier and more than 200 other law schools nationwide as an accrediting agency.

    Whittier officials don’t dispute the accuracy of the statistics. But they said the data offers an unfair portrayal of their students’ job prospects and fails to account for recent efforts aimed at better preparing grads for the job market. The school states it is confident its employment rates will soon rise.”

    For $ome rea$on, the law school pigs ALWAYS prognosticate a strong future for their graduates. Of course, the pieces of trash NEVER back up their rosy predictions with facts. I suppose they do so, because the ABA and lemmings, i.e. “sophisticated consumers,” never hold these bastards accountable.

    As the commenter from October 28, 2014 at 5:52 pm noted, the LSAT scores for entering students at this commode are beyond pathetic. Richard Nixon graduated from Whittier College, beforing going to Duke Law. Frankly, his corpse could score higher on the LSAT than many of the dolts and dunces curremtly enrolled at the pile of garbage known as WhiTTTTier Law Sewer.


    1. If Whittier officials are confident, then let tuition be conditional-get a job and pay tuition; no job, the degree is free. THAT would have credibility.

  18. Later in the article, in an attempt to be fair to the ABA-accredited toilet, Keegan Kyle went into complete moron mode:


    Whittier and other California law school officials argue the American Bar Association’s employment statistics – a widely cited performance metric in higher education – are biased against their institutions.

    Their rationale: California releases the results of state bar exams later than most states, giving law school graduates less time to obtain attorney jobs within the nine-month window measured by the ABA.

    There is some data to back this up. Last year, California law schools accounted for 12 of the nation’s bottom 50 law schools as measured by the employment statistics.

    Statewide, the ABA data also shows that 49 percent of graduates landed full-time, long-term attorney jobs within nine months. The nationwide rate was 57 percent.

    “The problems with employment are not unique to this school,” [associate dean Cockroach Martin] Pritikin said. “It’s nationwide and in particular it’s regional.”

    Pritikin said Whittier graduates get attorney jobs – they just come after the ABA’s nine-month snapshot. In 2011, he said, the school looked at employment after 15 months and found 70 percent of students were employed.

    “The numbers jump dramatically when you give them a little more time to look for a job,” he said.”

    Somehow, this idiotic staff writer failed to point out that MANY law grads who were employed – some in attorney positions – are OFTEN out of work within 2-3 years. They also have a hell of a time returning to the ranks of gainfully employed lawyers. I know plenty of recent JDs who were hired by law firms within nine months of graduation – and then were unceremoniously dropped on their ass shortly after.

    By the way, if Whittier Law $chool pigs are so confident that 70% of their recent classes are employed after 15 months of receiving their TTTT degrees – and they have the data to prove it – then why don’t these bitches and hags do so?!?! Perhaps, they don’t want prospective students to see that many of these JDs are working the cash register at Arco gas stations or stocking shelves at Wal-Mart.

    1. As I said above, California is a terrible state to try to work as a lawyer.

      Re: the state releasing bar results later than most states--do Fannie and Freddie Mae take that into account when determining when the loans must start to be repaid?? Didnt think so.

    2. Many are. Or will be at some point if they aren't now. I'll put it like this: I have NEVER seen someone start at the lowest level of a firm, say a solo with themselves as the only Associate, and "progress" throughout their career to a top law firm or in-house, or get in to the gov't at some level.


      Yeah, I've heard stories, occasionally, about people and claims that this has happened. And that's all they remain to me: Unverified stories which may as well be myths.

      When you start out at the lowest levels in law, it's unlikely you'll climb up. Even to reach the next higher rung is nearly a miracle in and of itself.

      I don't know anyone who started as a solo and eventually "made it" No one. Never. Looking back on many, many class years.

      Here, you'd be coming from Whittier, with about $155k on your back, starting out.

      Where the hell do you think you're gonna go?

      Law is literally swimming uphill against the tide for one's entire career and only a very small percentage land "safe harbor" (for now..) jobs in-house or with the gov't or have enough pull / connections to remain at the larger firms.

      I constantly see people falling down the ladder in law. Rarely do I see someone move up and those that do had something - or some things - going for them that made that possible.

      The average JD is well and truly screwed. And coming out of this school, you aren't even considered that.

    3. Do Stanford, Berkeley, or even any of the middle tier law schools in California need to use this excuse? Of course not. Whittier is grasping at any straw within reach.

    4. 12:40 makes an excellent and truthful point.

      Where you start is where you stay. I've been practicing 37 years and virtually every attorney I know is at the same career station as where they started. There are too many social and marketplace forces which prevent upward movement. Not the least of which is after 3 or 4 years of practice and looking to move up, you are competing with 3 or 4 years of new grads who simply have been credentials or connections who fill all the jobs you would be looking at.

  19. On October 21, 2014, Yahoo Finance re-published a Market Wired article, under the headline “Whittier Law School Grads Find Employment Providing Access to Low-Cost Legal Services.” Check out the following portion:


    “Low and moderate-income residents of Orange County, California will soon be able to receive discounted services offered by recent graduates of Whittier Law School. Beginning in January 2015, the Whittier Legal Access Program will match clients in need of affordable legal services with recent Whittier Law School graduates seeking to establish their own law practices. The program was created by partnering with Legal Aid Society of Orange County.

    The attorneys will work out of offices in Santa Ana, in a remodeled Dairy Queen building next door to the Legal Aid Society. The law school helps subsidize the office space and equipment, and the Legal Aid Society will provide client referrals. Both organizations provide legal and business mentoring to help the attorneys grow their practices successfully. In return, the program helps recent graduates to avoid unemployment and gain experience.

    "There's a problem in the legal profession. There are millions of Californians who aren't necessarily poor enough to qualify for legal aid, but they can't possibly afford prevailing lawyer rates. At the same time, you have recent graduates who are hungry for experience and need to build their practices. The Whittier Legal Access Program matches these two needs to create a win-win for the graduates and the community," said Martin Pritikin, Associate Dean of Whittier Law School.”

    When your potential clientele cannot afford your services, then you really don’t have a practice. Unless, of course, you extend that definition to include giving away legal advice for free. By the way, if these academic cockroaches care so much about low income people, then why aren’t these pieces of trash donating their time and “skills” to represent such clients?!?!

    Anyone with an IQ above room temperature knows that this is a mere ruse. “Law professors” and deans do not give one goddamn about poor people. Hell, they don’t care about their own students or recent grads. Why would they be concerned about some bag lady in Fresno?

    In the final analysis, WhiTTTTier Law Sewer is a festering dung pile. Job prospects are pathetic, and this piece appears to be timed to deflect criticism of the commode’s awful employment “placement” statistics. In fact, at the conclusion, this veiled advertisment mentions the toilet’s diverse student body – and provides a link to Judy DeVine, direcTTTTor of communicaTTTTion$ at this pile of waste.

    If a significant portion of licensed plumbers or electricians were relegated to giving away their services for free, would anyone claim that these professionals are gainfully employed?!?! Since you would not do so in that situation, then you should not apply that label to broke-ass, desperate attorneys who are representing people at no cost. By the way, only a mentally midget would even consider taking on an additional $175K-$230K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt, for a chance to represent piss poor clients, as part of a legal aid scheme.

    1. "Scheme" is the absolute right word.

      How many graduates per year does [S]hittier intend to rotate through this program, miraculously I will wager, ending at 9 months past graduation, designed to bolster their employment statistics?

      I can see year after year of class graduates being shuffled through this scheme which will benefit exactly anyone and everyone - EXCEPT the graduates themselves who will then be as unemployable and in debt as ever.

      Sickening. Truly sickening.

      But I suppose this will help to close the "justice gap" in California, right? On the backs of those who can least bear the burden.


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