Thursday, October 23, 2014

Third Tier Cow Patty: University of North Dakota School of Law

Tuition: In order to find the rate, you need to scroll down to Law School Tuition – since the trash pit lists all “professional” and undergraduate programs together. Nothing else quite says “elite,” huh?! In-state students are being charged $313.54 per credit hour. This equates to $9,406.20, for the 2014-2015 school year. Non-residents are being slapped with $743.06 for each unit, or $22,291.80 for 2014-2015. Who says that public schools are affordable?!?!

Total Cost of Attendance: The garbage heap lists additional costs as follows: $1,000 for books and supplies; $4,800 for personal; and $8,600 for room and board. This adds another $14,400 to the tab. This brings the total for North Dakota residents to $23,806.20, whereas the figure is $36,961.80 for out-of-state students.

Keep in mind that ABA-accredited diploma mills consider these expenses on a school-year basis. As such, we need to prorate personal expenses as well as room and board.  After all, actual students will require costs over the entire twelve month period.  Doing so, we reach the following, more accurate, total COA amounts: $28,273.20 for in-state suckers and $41,158.80 for non-resident idiots. Yes, what a fantastic bargain, huh?!?!

Ranking: According to US “News” & World Report, the UniversiTTTy of NorTTTh DakoTTTa Sewer of Law is rated as the 129th greatest, most remarkable and illustrious law school in the entire damn country. What a tremendous accomplish! Hell, it only shares this distinction with the following five toilets: Drexel; Maine; University of St. Thomas; Wyoming; and VermonTTT.

Published Employment Placement Figures: Head to this page, and scroll down to the area labeled ABA Employment Outcomes. Select the data for the commode’s Class of 2013. For $ome rea$on, the bitches and hags at this dung pit did not make this info easy to find. Apparently, they don’t want potential applicants to quickly access and view these reports.

Based on the ABA Employment Summary for 2013 Graduates, there were 74 members of this cohort. Of this total, only 46 found jobs where bar passage was required. Overall, 61 JDs reported being employed within nine months of graduation. Two people did not furnish their status to the cesspool. This translates to a “placement” rate of 84.7 percent, i.e. 61/72.

Two grads were hired in law school or university funded positions. By the way, the “generous” bastards at this dung heap only hired both as part-time workers. Yes, they are really looking out for their students and JDs, right?!?!

Under Employment Type, you will notice some revealing data. Only 25 members of this class landed positions in law firms – of any size! Hell, 15 of these men and women went to work for offices of 2-10 attorneys, while nine were hired by firms of 11-25 lawyers. In fact, only one damn graduate was employed by an office with 101-250 attorneys. Do you still like your odds, lemming?!?! Maybe you feel that YOU will be the single member of the entire group who will attain this job.

Average Law Student Indebtedness: US “News” lists the average law student indebtedness - for those members of the UniversiTTTy of SouTTTh Dakota Law Class of 2013 who incurred debt for law school - as $66,763. Fully 84% of this waste site’s 2013 cohort took on such foul debt. Remember that this figure does not include undergraduate debt – and also does not take accrued interest into account, while the student is enrolled.

The Trash Pit’s “Commitment to Diversity”: In the pigs’ own words:

“Diversity Mission Statement

The University of North Dakota School of Law is committed to the principle of equal opportunity in legal education for all persons. Further, the School recognizes the educational richness that results from including human experience from diverse perspectives. A law school community that welcomes, promotes, and respects diverse viewpoints enhances the quality of educational experiences for all those within that community, and enhances the legal profession and communities outside of the law school by preparing students to be more culturally respectful, professionally competent, and civically responsible leaders. The University of North Dakota School of Law is therefore committed to achieving a diverse law school community in terms of race, ethnicity, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, age, disability, marital status, and socioeconomic status[.]” [Emphasis mine]

Evidently, this was passed by the faculty on December 6, 2002. How progressive of them. This must be a forward-thinking in$TTTiTTTuTTTion! Then again, the rodents don't mind who they admit into the building - as long as they are able to pay the tuition bill.

Conclusion: Avoid this festering pile of dung, and don’t look back. Do you think that non-law employers are going to be impressed with your TTT law degree from this pile of moist manure?!?! Also, you may feel that this school is a good deal for the student. However, you cannot forget that interest compounds on this amount, while you are pissing away three years of your life. Plus, only one person from the entire Univer$iTTTy of NorTTTh DakoTTTa JD Class of 2013 landed a decent-paying law firm job. If you like to gamble, then you are MUCH better off hitting some of the Indian casinos in the region.


  1. I wonder of they offer substantial scholarships to students with decent LSAT scores (my understanding is that public schools are much more stingy with scholarships than private ones). If you didn't have to undertake debt except for living expenses and wanted to spend your career in state government or a small law firm in ND this might not be a horrible bet.

    Lots of caveats though, and as with all schools outside of HYS it's a terrible idea to entirely debt finance.

  2. Off topic but above the law via excess of democracy blog is reporting that lsats are down again this year and 40% from the highs. Great job Nando. You're a big part of this. Take a bow good sir.

  3. North Dakota might not be an absolutely terrible deal for in state kids. (I wouldn't go.) But who wants to live in such a brutal climate? You like getting pneumonia? Didn't think so.

  4. But it's the best law school in the state. That's gotta count for something.

    1. That's just like saying that University of New Mexico Law School is the best (and only) school in New Mexico. In fact, it's exactly like saying that UNM Law is the best school in NM.

  5. Hold on one minute. This law school has a respectable bargain basement discounted price. The other 100 law school's profiled are no where near this.... with the exception of the HCBU's.

    In undergrad back in the day I always wondered what would happen if eventually everyone got bachelor's degree what would be the new standard. The current
    state of law school clearly depicts this.

    Supply and demand. I guess we must adapt and change with the times? Life used to be so simple. This revolution has created the needed debate to push the reform of the higher education system forward.

    Next stop: reality TV show of: I used to be a Law School professor... What will I do next ? :-) Cant wait!... Thanks Nando !!

    1. Their problem is that out of state tuition is more than twice as expensive as in-state, and. . . it's North Dakota. There is zero reason to go there if you are not a ND native. The Dakotas should probably share a law school and a bar exam (I think they already both use the UBE anyway).

  6. 1 million US visitors to TTR. Good work.

  7. When law schools talk about diversity and all this progressive sounding nonsense it is similar to the policy of the local whore whose. All whore houses don't discriminate and accept all paying clients regardless of race, age, religion, disability, or socioeconomic status. You flash the cash the whore houses have a policy of inclusion. I guess that makes the pimps just as enlightened as your typical law school Dean.

  8. Pimps have higher ethics than law school deans (and professors too).

    1. So do the whores of the pimps. You know, up front, what you're getting and the price.

  9. Ok, I can't believe I'm writing this but...if you really want to be a lawyer, ND has the #1 growing state economy in the US. And if you're willing to do criminal defense, with all the transient oil workers, there's a chance you could actually make a living. Mind you, you'd be living in ND-I was there in the AF, and it's two things-flat and cold, except in July and August, when it's flat and brutally hot.
    But with so many lemmings wanting to practice law b/c it's their "passion" well-here's your shot. There may actually be an opportunity to do so in North Dakota.

  10. The schools make out like bandits and the students get fucked. That's real nice.


    Back on June 27, 2011, the New York Times Economix blog published a Catherine Rampell piece entitled "The Lawyer Surplus, State by State." Look at this epic opening:

    "We’ve written before about the tough job market for recent law-school graduates. The climate is hard partly because of the weak economy, but also partly because the nation’s law schools are churning out many more lawyers than the economy needs even in the long run.

    Now a few researchers have tried to quantify exactly how big that surplus is.

    The numbers were crunched by Economic Modeling Specialists Inc. (also known as EMSI), a consulting company that focuses on employment data and economic analysis. The company’s calculations were based on the number of people who passed the bar exam in each state in 2009, versus an estimate of annual job openings for lawyers in those states. They also looked at data from the Department of Education on law school graduates each year to get another measure of the quantity of new lawyers. Estimates for the number of openings is based on data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Census Bureau.

    According to this model, every state but Wisconsin and Nebraska (plus Washington, D.C.) is producing many more lawyers than it needs."

    Look at the figures for North Dakota, from this report:

    2010-2015 Estimated Annual Openings: 33
    2009 Bar Exam Passers: 63
    Surplus: 30

    As you can see from the table, North Dakota only needs roughly 33 licensed attorneys in the state each year. In fact, this figure might be a little high. After all, only 25 members of the UND Sewer of Law Class of 2013 landed jobs in law firms – of any size! There were 74 members of the cohort.

    According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the estimated population for the state of North Dakota was 723,393 for 2013. However, the place is undergoing a boom, essentially fueled by oil exploration. In April 2010, the bureau listed the total population as 672,591. Even with a 7.6% increase in that short time frame, the state does not need that many lawyers. For $ome rea$on, the “professors” and administrator pigs do not mention this fact to their students.

    1. What is the purpose of a licensing agency when it doesn't restrict the number of entries to the field to the number of openings?

      Why is there a federal student loan spigot opened to obscene rates when this data is even published by the government?

      If the government can't even manage something as simple as students and debt when they themselves publish the data, how can they do anything?

      How do people have faith in the US government having even minimal competency when they show repeatedly they do not have it?

      Student loans are just one part of the problem. How can these morons who fail at simple math understand how to run complex economies, and print stimulus or manage interest rates?

      I don't see how they can. They aren't smart enough. I used to think smart people just made mistakes, but these people are not smart and they are extremely lazy. The US government is simply not justified in being as large as it is and as powerful as it is. It does not work.

      I mean I know how crazy what I wrote probably looks, and I don't even know how to defend myself from that attack. But I honestly feel if you look at the data it's just indefensible, and I have zero faith that anybody that can fail so badly at something like this can be good at anything else. It's the same philosophy top to bottom.

    2. I agree with Nando. With respect to the comments above, coming out with "only" $50 to $60K in debt is NOT a wise move.

      In just a few short years of under/unemployment, the debt will have quickly capitalized to 6 figures.

      ND is not a large legal market. Anywhere that is the case, look out! The connected folks will get whatever relatively few good-paying jobs are out there and the rest will be left to suffer and fend for themselves.

      Insular markets are traps all their own.

      The only thing this trash heap will secure for most of its graduates will be a lifetime of Debt Serfdom and misery.


    On September 8, 2009, Debra Cassens Weiss authored an ABA Journal article entitled “North Dakota Law Dean Says U.S. News Info on Clerkships Is Wrong.” Take a moment to read the following lengthy excerpt:

    "Dean Kathryn Rand told the ABA Journal that she learned of the new ranking on Friday afternoon when her director of career services sent her the online link. The clerkship list said North Dakota placed 28 percent of its 2007 grads in all judicial clerkships, and 25 percent in federal Article III clerkships.

    Actually, the law school did not place any students in Article III clerkships in 2007, Rand said. The 28 percent figure for all judicial clerkships is correct, however, “and not an anomaly at all.”

    North Dakota was not the only surprise on the U.S. News list of top judicial clerkship feeder law schools. The University of Wyoming was No. 5 and the University of St. Thomas at No. 6. All are tier 3 law schools on U.S. News’ overall list.

    “I don’t know exactly what happened with the misinformation being reported in the U.S. News survey,” Rand told the ABA Journal. “I understand that we weren’t the only school that had misinformation reported.” Rand said she learned of other errors when she called U.S. News.

    Rand did not identify which schools were wrongly placed on the list. But Robert Morse, director of data research for U.S. News, told the ABA Journal that Western New England College School of Law, ranked 15th, has also contacted him to report an error. He invites other schools identifying mistakes to contact him, and says the results will be corrected.”

    What an eliTTTe insTTTiTTTuTTTion, right?!?! By the way, isn’t it uncanny how these supposed “errors” ALWAYS favor the law school pigs?! Also, what federal judge cockroaches want to hire TTT law grads as their clerks?

    I laughed when the dean, KaTTThyrn Rand, puffed out her chest - and bragged that 28% of 2007 grads ended up in local clerkships. Listen, Bitch: no one goes to law school, with the intent to become a traffic court or juvenile court clerk.

  13. Read this:

    I hope the University of North Dakota School of Law loses its accreditation. Pathetic.

  14. There is no way to argue ND law is a scam. It is virtually giving away degrees instate. You all are against law school period, not just excessively expensive ones.

    1. Yeah sure there buddy. The assholes said 1/4 of their class landed article III clerkships. And it turns out they were all state clerk positions. Yeah not a scam at all. Get bent.

    2. Would you pay 35k in tuition/books/fees plus COL plus debt interest for a graduate program where you had a 62% chance of getting *any* job in the field after graduation?

      That's what you would be doing if you attended UND law school.

    3. According to Educating Tomorrows Lawyers, only 59.5% of the class of 2013 got real law jobs (full time, long term, bar passage required, minus solo and law school funded jobs). Taking on even 60-70K of debt for that is not a good idea. A few lean years being unable to pay the interest on such debt could easily cause it to balloon into the six figures. And we have no idea how much graduates of this school are actually earning.

    4. I work in North Dakota as an attorney. I graduated from the University of Iowa, but virtually all my peers and the older attorneys here graduated from UND. It's well regarded in the state, more than a higher ranked institution that is out of state. UND tends to be a pretty affordable school and the demand for attorneys is high enough that I don't know of any graduates from there who aren't employed.

  15. Maybe, but it's less expensive than many undergrad tuitions, and you have no chance of being a lawyer without going to law school

    1. It was called apprenticeship. And it was common before the states, the ABA, and law schools figured out they had to do away with that model and mandate 3 years from an ABA-accredited cesspit and passing a Bar before allowing people to become lawyers by actually working under other practicing attorneys, being fairly paid for their work, and gaining actual real-world experience (gasp! the Horror!) unlike the current model which equates to essentially 3 years of busy-work and accruing a mountain of non-dischargeable debt while learning absolutely nothing of practical value aside from basic concepts.

    2. I learned a heck of a lot in law school, just like I learned a lot in my business undergrad. When I got out of law school, I may not have known how to practice, but I had the concepts down. ND gives in state students who want to be lawyers an inexpensive method of obtaining the education. How any body can be against this school is beyond me. Again, many of you have irrational hatreds of anything law school
      There are still several decent, inexpensive law schools out there that cost significantly less than uh educations. Who the heck are any of you to deem those schools "scams" or that people are throwing their lives away by attending.

  16. As a graduate of this place I can tell you this school is an even bigger piece of shit than portrayed on here.

  17. current student here, this place is a trashbin, stay away!

  18. I have a JD from North Dakota. I have a good lawyer job. I make plenty of money. I didn't have to borrow very much money. At work, nobody cares where I went to school. I just give plenty of great head. If you don't like North Dakota, get out. I have enough men to service under their desks as it is.


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