Friday, January 9, 2015

Third Tier Drake Accepted 77.6 Percent of Applicants for the 2014-2015 School Year

Dragging Ass: On January 1, 2015, the Des Moines Register printed a Grant Rodgers piece entitled “Dean Ullem has true-blue passion for Drake law school.” Take a look at this tepid opening:

“Drake University Law School is a family affair for Benjamin Ullem, a longtime Des Moines attorney who returned in July to lead the school for a two-year stint as dean. 

His father earned his undergraduate and law degrees at Drake. Then, Ullem, now 70, graduated from Drake in 1966 with a liberal arts degree before going on to law school himself. His daughter got her law degree from [Third Tier] Drake in 1997… 

Job No. 1 in 2015: working to reverse a six-year decline in applications. But 2015 also will be a year of celebration: The start of the fall semester will mark the law school's 150th year. 

During his tenure as dean, Ullem hopes to help sustain and grow the law school by focusing on efforts to attract students, while also building on the school's long tradition of supporting clinical and real-world experiences for its students. 

"We think completing 150 years is a good stepping stone to looking forward to the next 150, and we truly are doing that," he said.” [Emphasis mine]

As you can see, the school’s exTTTensive history hasn’t amounted to much. It is currently ranked as the 113th “best” law school in the county – by US “News” & World Report. What a tremendous “accomplishment,” huh?!?! Later on, the article continues:

“Ullem takes the helm at [Third Tier] Drake at a time when the number of applications to accredited law schools nationwide has dropped from a 10-year high of 602,300 for the 2010 academic year to 352,400 for 2014 — a 41.4 percent decrease, according to data collected by the nonprofit Law School Admission Council. 

At [Third Tier] Drake, applications hit a recent peak at 1,206 in 2009. But numbers then tumbled, hitting a low this year of 496 applications, a 59 percent decrease, according to data the school reports annually to the American Bar Association.

The size of first-year classes at the law school has also dropped, from 166 students in 2010 to 110 at the beginning of the fall semester this school year. To turn the tide, Ullem has championed efforts by professors and faculty to visit undergraduate classrooms to make presentations on the law school or even to teach mock law classes.

Common thought is that would-be attorneys are shying away from law school due to concerns about student debt loads and disappointing post-graduation job opportunities. But Ullem remains optimistic about the future of the legal profession and shares that message with prospective students and with [Third Tier] Drake alumni across the country. 

[Third Tier] Drake must amplify its message that a degree from the law school offers good value for the money, Ullem said. The law school has established so called "3 and 3" partnerships with Drake's undergraduate programs, Simpson College and Iowa State University that allow students to get both an undergraduate degree and a law degree in six years, shaving a year from the usual process. Partnerships with other schools are on the way, Ullem said. [Emphasis mine]

As you can see, the pigs are desperate for asses in seats. Hell, they may start accepting students who drool on the application. Who knows? If you leave Cheetos smudges on the paperwork, the bitches and hags on the admi$$ion$ committee might consider that a bonus. Anyway, it is beyond pathetic to see these rodents pursue dumbass undergrads. When will the swine start handing out applications and bowls of soup to homeless people a few blocks from campus?!?!

The Commode’s 2014 Standard 509 Information Report: Plug your nose, before digging into the following excrement:

“GPA and LSAT Scores 

Total number of applications: 496 
Total number of offers: 385 
Number of matriculants: 106 
75th percentile GPA: 3.53 
50th percentile GPA: 3.25 
25th percentile GPA: 2.97 
75th percentile LSAT: 156 
50th percentile LSAT: 152 
25th percentile LSAT: 148 [Emphasis mine]

Yes, those are truly impressive numbers, huh?!?! Keep in mind that the majority of law school applicants tend to major in soft subjects such as Political “Science,” History, Literature, and Philosophy. Plus, with fewer people applying, most of these lemmings earned their undergrad degrees from garbage univer$itie$.

Conclusion: In the final analysis, Third Tier Drake admitted 77.6 percent of all applicants for the 2014 -2015 first year class. You also saw the scores for these dolts, in the 509 report. Simply put, this law school is about as selective as a lonely fat chick on a Saturday night. As the message about the law school scam spreads, fewer people will apply to - and enroll in - ABA-accredited trash heaps. At some point, this will affect bar passage rates – so long as the state examiners do not water down the exams to appease the “educator” pigs.


  1. As much as I despise the garbage-munching pigs at Drake, I've got to give them a tiny bit of credit. They chose an actual practicing attorney as their dean.

    With his career and life experience, Ullem could very well display more maturity than the corpulent crybaby known as Brian Leiter. Leiter's infantile squabbling over academic philosophy is not only worthless to his students, but a serious embarrassment to his employer.

  2. Bar passage rates don't matter, at least not the the law schools. And - there are no jobs out there anyway..

    All they care about is getting the money up-front.

    In 2 years, I predict, we will have reached essentially open admissions for the majority of law schools. This will happen simply to keep the money flowing.

    There's nothing like a 6 hr. per week teaching job with gold-plated benefits. That's all that matters to the law school folks.

    1. And also, I forgot to add: As long as the ABA does nothing more than a token slap on the wrist for a low passage rate, then nothing will happen.

      You will see the schools move in almost perfect unison on admissions and concerning Bar Exam scores so that when it's finally blatantly obvious, the ABA will have a situation where so many schools have sub-standard Bar passage rates that whacking them all would be an admission of a problem - so nothing, therefore, will actually be done beyond token lipservice.

      The schools will take the approach of thus not being that one odd school that really stands out and therefore risk being truly punished.

      In short, nothing will change. Nothing.

    2. could law grads sue the ABA for not enforcing its own rules? If the ABA changes said rule after the fact, can any action be done to get them de-accredited?

  3. Law school deans' formula for raising number of tuition payers is to lower admission standards and call it diversity. Law deans are scum. There is zero leadership in legal education. They care about protecting the 2-4 hour work week for law professors.

  4. Make no mistake about this: we are in an open admissions era when it comes to American law schools. These academic scum don't care that by lowering admissions standards, they are destroying the American Bar. Every year I have witnessed the newer lawyers are dumber and dumber. They come into court with a sense of arrogance and entitlement. I actually saw a newly minted lawyer get into a heated exchange with a judge which ended in the lawyer getting sanctioned $500. The lawyer defied the judge by telling him "I am going to appeal your meaningless sanction." Little does that moron know that his name will now be etched in every local judge's mind as these stories spread like wildfire amongst judges and local practitioners.

    The law schools don't care. They are going to milk this train until the brakes bleed and the train either goes into the abyss or will derail off its tracks. That day is coming. And when that day arrives, it will be a time of reckoning for these academic low lives who have preyed on idealistic college grads.

    1. I don't know if it's because of mass media, indoctrination from an early age, or the lack of strong parental guidance, but in general there is a deification of banks and business entities, of which obviously schools are a part, and a move towards hostility towards anyone that speaks out. The presumption is that the government and businesses and the like are inherently altruistic and "good" while the naysayers are evil and greedy.

      Of course the opposite is common sense. When somebody stands to make money off of your compliance, or stands to gain power from your obsequiousness, their motives are extremely questionable and not to your actual interests. It always makes more sense to trust in the person situated similarly to you and who stands nothing to gain by helping you.

      So bubbles have repeatedly been driven, while the established forces convince the public that nothing is amiss and ignore everything going on around them saying otherwise. Then when the thing falls apart, since they made the narrative in the first place, they absolve themselves of responsibility and claim "nobody could have seen this coming." They just summarily ignore all the voices that did see it coming, and the people don't question it, and the same entities just shift to another industry to repeat the same scams.

      The subprime collapse isn't even that long ago, it's rather quite recent. Rather than seeing the similarities to the higher education scam, especially law schools, most seem to prefer to stick their heads in the sand.

      I don't know when the higher education collapse will occur. I think Obama's push towards Community College may be a sign it's actually rather coming sooner than later. But it'll probably happen. It will be interesting to see what the fallout is.

      At this point I think a lot of law grads will just have to accept being menial laborers. Probably the quality of life will be higher than in shitlaw anyway, so don't feel too bad over it. Marriage rates and birth rates will eventually adjust as young people lower their expectations and demands of each other, there simply are not going to be enough high earners to go around for everyone, it's going to be the same percentages or less than it usually is instead.

    2. @328,

      "At this point I think a lot of law grads will just have to accept being menial laborers ... Marriage rates and birth rates will eventually adjust as young people lower their expectations."

      ARE YOU TAKING ANY BETS ON THAT?! As we've seen demonstrated on this site over and over, there are legions of "edumucated" scumbags out there who would rather stay in debt than perform the kind of menial labor that is "beneath" them.

      1007 is one hundred percent correct about certain people's "arrogance" and "entitlement." A great many self-important assholes will simply hunker down and refuse to work. They'll keep holding out for that high-paying dream job in environmental space-sports law. Of course, most of those lazy fucktards would suck at the space law job as well - assuming that said job actually required a serious output of time and effort.

    3. I can't wait to see some law professors take jobs that were formerly beneath them. Keep up the good work, Nando.

    4. Profts are all that matter in this system. The finance industry comprises 50% of profits in this country. It's destructive in mal-investment, doesn't produce value. It breeds the most libertarian ideology. After all, how can one defend such a destructive, none wealth-producing industry if not, might makes right, and there is no civil society.

    5. @902,

      So why don't you move to Cuba, then?

      What's stopping you?

      All the welfare treats that the USA's "profit-driven" society keeps dishing out, maybe?

      Go. Go now! This sick, fucked-up capitalist country doesn't "deserve" you.

    6. Why don't you move to Somalia instead of trying to turn USA into it?

      I earn money through a productive service, not shilling for billionaires. My family has been here since the first ship. Who the heck are you?

    7. What 'wellfare' treats? Im not wealthy enough to get farm subsidies for a gentleman's ranch (unlike your benefactor, Koch). I don't own a business that I can deduct all my expenses and get paid through capital gains to get a tax bill of zero.
      Do you mean food stamps and home heating assistance, lol? Wellfare was destroyed by Clinton's 1997 Heritage Foundation reform. What a savings for the budget that was...

  5. Can someone fail the LSAT? Of course not! If the LSAT score is not good for the school's 'reputation,' they'll just accept you without one, like Rutgers did.

  6. To Anonymous @ 3:28 p.m.
    'I don't know if it's because of mass media, indoctrination from an early age, or the lack of strong parental guidance, but in general there is a deification of banks and business entities, of which obviously schools are a part, and a move towards hostility towards anyone that speaks out. The presumption is that the government and businesses and the like are inherently altruistic and "good" while the naysayers are evil and greedy.'

    It is all of the above. Please watch the following:

    Richard Groves interviews John Taylor Gatto. The answers to your questions are in this interview.

  7. Law school is for dummies.

  8. Holy cow, the fifth tier shithole I went to for undergrad had a lower acceptance rate than that. It terrifies me to think I might actually get accepted to one of these schools were I to apply.

  9. I'm the same person who posted at 3:24 am, but I just wanted to thank this site and the people who post here for saving my ass. I found the site while doing research on law schools about a year ago and it quickly changed my mind. Just wish there were easy answers for those who were unlucky enough to get a JD only to find themselves in a financial straight-jacket. The system certainly knows how to prey on those who are trying to improve their lives.

  10. Awww, the game of life. You ever wonder why you see 25 year guys as projection managers, underwriters and other skilled jobs? It's because their daddy or uncle owns the fucking company. Those guys have a 15 mile head start on you in this marathon.

    People without connections (or killer good looks) tend to go this route: get a worthless undergrad degree, can't find a job worth 2 shits, go to graduate school and pile on more debt for another worthless fucking degree, work for free at internships (or externships), take the first decent job offer that comes your way. From there, you work hard (ya know, 'cause that's the key ingredient, wink wink), maybe in 3-5 years you get to be a low level or mid manager. And that's if you don't piss anyone off. Just to be safe, kiss the boss's ass. Bring breath mints. So now, at age 30-35, you start making $45K or $50K if you're lucky.

    See where this is going motherfuckers? The dumbshit who came out of the right vagina starts making $85K+ a year at age 24 or 25. (He's already had the benefit of going to better public schools or private schools. Been on foreign trips, rubbed shoulders with the country club assholes, and has had a shit ton of advantages over you since birth. Fucksake, he drove a better car at age 16 then you did at 30.) He's got no student loans (or very little.) And you, hardworking brainwashed ass that you are are left with tons of student loans and hopefully you start making $45 or $50K per year when you hit your mid 30s.

    The game is rigged against you from the fucking start. Can't you see it yet? (It seems like a lot of you do, but there are still some dumbshits who believe hard work and letters after their name will save them.) Now a few brilliant (and lucky) sons of bitches make a killing, but generally if they are software geniuses who can sell their shit to companies that will use it to further cut down their human workforce. This country is going down the shitter. wake up.

    1. @730,

      Okay, you've convinced us: you should kill yourself. I mean, life is unfair, so you should never put forth an effort - right?

      Or you could just continue to ineffectually bitch and cry about it for the rest of your life. Apparently doing that makes your condition better, somehow.

      I do have one question for you, though. How did the "country club asshole's" parents (or grandparents, or his ancient ancestors from the Iron Age, or whatever) originally obtain THEIR wealth that keeps gettin passed down through generations? Hm? I'm guessing through innovation and hard work, but then again they might have all been born of a race of lizard people who crap out gold every morning.

    2. I see Nando refuses to moderate his blog. Well I'm out, sick of seeing the same troll for weeks now.

    3. @1043,

      LOL, you will be missed. This site is NOTHING without its little Message Discipline Troll - who spends all his time telling Nando how to run the site.

      Message Discipline Troll, when are ****YOU**** going to write something against the law schools? All you do is engage in flame wars and ask for commenters to be banned. Why is that, Message Discipline Troll?

      Now keep your promise and stop posting here.

    4. There is no "message discipline" troll. There never was a "message discipline" troll. It's just one of the millions of voices on your head.

    5. I agree with The Truth. Hard work and a pocket full of hopes and dreams gets you - hard work.

      As far as that, check into how the Kennedy's made their money. It was from questionable activities and bootlegging. Same thing as the Mafia.

    6. Internet PR outfits are very rampant on the internet these days. Billionaire funded think tanks farm out this work.
      I've noticed it's the same troll message:

      Hard work gets the prize
      Easy playing field

      It's PR propaganda from libertarian front groups. I don't think it's a professor-centered thing.

    7. I also believe the "It's all gov loans" trolls are one and the same.

    8. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    9. @912,

      You're absolutely right: nobody could possibly think that people should work for a living - there's got to be a payoff behind it somewhere.

    10. Somehow, the "work for a living" troll never gets around to the issue of whether law professors should actually work for their living.

    11. @233,

      Oh look, the Message Discipline Troll is back. LOL, I guess he must be done trying to "punish" us by staying away.

      I wonder how long it will take our Message Discipline Troll to start telling Nando how to run the site again.

      For that matter, I wonder how long it will take the Message Discipline Troll to actually write something against the law schools himself. He keeps demanding that everyone else do it.


    12. I'm sick of replying to 6:50. Can someone research his posting history and url to see if its the same guy continuously shilling for master koch or one of his billionaire ilk?
      If he want's to post some half-baked screeds from an unemployed PhD at Citizens for Progress, et. al. so we can tear it apart, that's one thing, but the usual anti-people Rand nonsense detracts from this blog.

  11. "88% of Drake’s Class of 2013 was employed nine months after graduation, compared to 82% nationally." Here is what TTT drake is saying on its website. THEY ARE STILL TRYING TO MISLEAD PEOPLE!

    1. Meanwhile at law school transparency ( we find that 11.6% of Drake Law graduates in short term positions and another 11.6% are simply unemployed. Furthermore 18.8% are employed by businesses, probably pouring lattes, stocking shelves, flipping burgers, or other similar legal work; and 30.4% of Drake law grads work as desperate solos or at small 2-10 attorney firms getting paid fuck all.
      Please don't go to Drake Law School. As standards at law schools in general and at Drake in particular sink your resume will increasingly look like this -->


    Here is the conclusion from the Grant Rodgers piece above:

    “Drake must amplify its message that a degree from the law school offers good value for the money, Ullem said. The law school has established so called "3 and 3" partnerships with Drake's undergraduate programs, Simpson College and Iowa State University that allow students to get both an undergraduate degree and a law degree in six years, shaving a year from the usual process. Partnerships with other schools are on the way, Ullem said.

    Students also need to understand the "big picture" of a law degree, [Benjamin] Ullem said. The law school's graduates have gone on to do everything from lead nonprofits to manage and direct significant construction projects.

    "My own practical experience is that I had a wonderful career in the law practice, and it was very rewarding," he said. "I also tell them they're not going to make huge amounts of money, but they get an opportunity to help people. I tell them they can use their legal degree in an infinite variety of ways."

    Yes, ass-wipe: telling people to incur an additional $110K-$150K in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt – for a TTT law degree – in order to “help people” is both responsible and moral advice, correct?!?! If you want to engage in such work, and you find it fulfilling for some reason, then you can go volunteer at a soup kitchen or with a church group. You DO NOT NEED to financially ruin yourself, in the process.

    The Des Moines RegisTTTer felt the need to provide the following details at the end of this story:

    “Benjamin Ullem

    AGE: 70

    LIVES: Des Moines

    EDUCATION: Bachelor's degree in liberal arts, Drake University, 1966; law degree, Drake University Law School

    CAREER: Drake University law school dean since July 2014, interim dean 2008 - 2009, attorney at Whitfield & Eddy since 1975.

    FAMILY: Three adult children”

    Today, how many liberal arts majors – from middling college$ and univer$itie$ - who go on to attend third tier commodes can replicate Ullem’s success?! That is not a realistic goal for prospective law students. If you have his same academic background now, you will be lucky to earn $50K per year. Plus, your first legal job will not be as stable due to the new economy. Good luck trying to purchase a home or trying to support three children on such a paltry salary – especially when you are trying to repay $120K+ in student loans. By the way, doesn’t Ullem resemble Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars?

  13. The law school administrators are smart business people. They know full well their model is unsustainable. They have known this for years i.e. Richard Matasar in 2007 saying the golden age of law schools was about over. So the schools jacked tuition through the roof over the last few years. The admins want to wring every last penny out of their profit machine before it crashes. They will retire somewhere sunny and warm with a huge house and fat bank account. Meanwhile the lemmings will scrounge around for whatever scraps they can find.

  14. How the fuck do they have the audacity to put up something like that, as if to imply that it has any relevance - any at all - to today's world?

    Boomer with typical Boomer-esque degrees who managed to ride the wave and make it to the 1% or so when the economy and times were very, very much different.

    I can assure you, those same liberal arts degrees today will buy a grad a ticket to the local soup kitchen / food pantry - maybe.

    These people don't get it. The public still by and large doesn't get it, and Lemmings - Millennial Clones of the Boomers with the same degrees yet in the present - by and large do not get it. Yes, admissions are dropping. But IMO not nearly by enough.

    1. This is true. Even now, even today, most people have no contact with the worst of the worst outcomes. Most of them cannot tell you who the Vice President of the United States is, let alone what might be happening in a particular industry.

      This is not an accident. You can discriminate against a minority as long as the majority doesn't sympathize. One way, is they just don't fucking know.

      Boomers outside the industry are fucking clueless. I've got mine, never heard of no problems for no one else. "No, I don't want to pay for college for kids! I paid for my own." - receives on *average* several hundred thousand more in SS and Medicare than he paid in during his entire working life!

      The Boomers who shill for law schools are going to hell. Murderers.

    2. Let's not overdo working white collar during the post-war boom. Boomers went to work, had boring lives, etc.
      What they also had was reasonable work opportunities and gainful employment. They also, in general, were mean-spirited, ignorant, conservative boobs--just having enough wealth to sustain the 'thirft' fantasies.
      I recall during the 80s, when some were still young, the crap on TV:

      Rambo aiding the Taliban against the Reds
      Making fun of unions
      Voting against wellfare and reduction of the top marginal income tax rate
      Top Gun
      Macho man action films

    3. The reason why you are not successful is because you haven't picked yourself up by the bootstraps, walked ten miles in three feet of snow, then wrestled a black bear to submission while only have eaten a lard sandwich on moldy bread for the whole week.
      Or was it that you weren't on an acid trip while listening to Interstellar Overdrive at the highest volume, spaced-out to the point of losing bodily functions, painting your face all the colors of the spectrum, then going out to throw food and rocks at the pigs during groovy student demonstrations because "the man" was too uptight and oppressive to dig the hip scene.
      I forget which one it is. Boomers, please tell us.

    4. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  15. I wonder if pictures of overflowing toilets are appropriate.

    With applications having fallen so much many law schools can't be said to be overflowing with applicants anymore. The commodes are fulminating, fractured, foul, filthy, feces stained, fucked up, and fraudulent sure. But overflowing might not be true anymore.


    Tuition: Full-time lemmings at Third Tier Drake will be slammed with $37,994 in tuition. When you add in fees of $122, this total reaches $38,106. Yes, what a great bargain for the students, right?!?!

    Supposed Employment “Placement” Statistics: According to the pigs at this dump, 88.4% of the JD Class of 2013 was employed within nine months of graduation. Back when I first started this excellent blog, the swine at Third Tier Drake declared this figure to be 97 percent. If they didn’t merely pull that number out of their asses, then they must have included JDs working at PetSmart, State Farm, and various nightclubs. In the cockroaches’ own words:

    “Drake was 58th out of the 200 schools that reported data to the ABA for the Class of 2013, putting it in the 71st percentile nationally, with employment numbers 6% above the national average. Drake was 9th out of 24 schools in the region (the twenty-four law schools in Iowa and the six contiguous states) and almost 2% above the regional average. Drake was in the 68th percentile nationally (7% above the national average) and 54th percentile regionally in full-time long-term employment.

    Nationwide in 2013, 1,888 grads were hired by their own law schools; one school hired almost 23% of its own graduating class. If you adjust for employment by law schools, nationally Drake's employment numbers ranked it 26th out of 200 schools, the 87th percentile and 10% above the national average. Regionally, Drake was 7th out of 24 schools and almost 4% better than the regional average.”

    Good for you, bitches. Your toilet is still ranked as the 113th “greatest” law school in the entire goddamn country, by US “News” & World Report. How do you like that, Benjamin Ullem?

    Average Law Student Indebtedness: USN&WR lists the average law student indebtedness - for those members of the Third Tier Drake Class of 2013 who incurred debt for law school - as $108,188. Hell, 88% of this garbage pit’s 2013 cohort took on such toxic debt. While this figure does not seem that daunting, don’t forget that this amount does not even include undergraduate debt – and also does not take accrued interest into account, as the student is enrolled.

    In the final analysis, enrolling in Third Tier Drake is the equivalent of financial. Feel free to wipe your ass with your TTT law degree. That is essentially what legal employers will do when they see your resume come across their printer or fax machine. If you’re lucky, they may use it as a coaster for their coffee. For $ome rea$on, Benjamin Ullem “forgot” to mention that in his interview.

  17. We could seriously do without the pictures of toilets and excrement. You use them in a ton of your posts; it's getting really old and repetitive. We get the idea at this point.

    1. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  18. Don't listen to 9:26. We need to hit lemmings with every attention-grabbing device we can think of. The more attention getting the better.

    1. How about we assemble the 60,000 or so unemployed law grads from the last 3 years and post their group picture?

    2. Yes, the more attention the better. That's the motto of many a disastrous election campaign.

    3. @ 2:35 PM

      You assume that the public at large, after becoming informed of the depth and breadth of the scam, wouldn't wholly agree. You're wrong.

      For the sake of future, political publication: law school employees who target the poor, racial minorities, the weak and hopeful, in order to take public monies and leave the erstwhile students in an untenable financial position *for life* are scum. The guy who sells you a 'lemon' automobile via fraud can and will be prosecuted, and bankruptcy for any such debt is an option.

      What law schools should be terrified of is any kind of scrutiny. Any scrutiny of their LSAT scores, their employment stats, the wage information for new grads (that the ABA allows to be based on 5 respondents) that they publish as reliable consumer information...could prove disasterous. And by "could" I mean I'd bet my life on "would."

      Do they want to be audited? The more attention the better!

    4. Light is Heat.

  19. The Toilets need to keep getting flushed. Thank you Nando

  20. Drake announced its new president, the former law dean at gonzaga.

    1. Can't imagine the new Prez thinking much of the dean with zero credentials.

  21. Ullem is a joke of a dean. Only law school dean in the nation that never taught a law school class or published a law review article. No vision will run Drake in the ground

  22. Drake law School is way to expensive for the education one gets. The faculty is mediocre. Once they get tenure most do nothing in terms of publishing. They have a caretaker Dean who could not be hired by any other law school in the nation. I would say they are in a slow death spiral. Their new part-time program is strong evidence of how desperate they are for money.


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