Thursday, February 19, 2015

Pulled Pork: Time to Rejoice Over Law School Pigs Going Down in Flames

Burnt to a Crisp: On February 18, 2015, Slate published a Jordan Weissmann piece entitled “The Great Law School Bust Is About to Claim Its First Victim.” Look at this opening:

“In 2014, law schools watched their new enrollment numbers collapse to lows not seen since the 1970s, as the tales of horror and woe from the legal job market continued to scare off would-be applicants. The lack of students has, of course, presented some financial difficulties for the academy. Schools have tried to tighten up their budgets in response (one especially oversize[d] J.D. mill even closed a campus), but it was starting to seem inevitable that at least one would have to shut down entirely. 

We haven't quite reached that point. However, two law schools in St. Paul, Minnesota, have now announced plans to merge in order to stay afloat. Pending approval from the American Bar Association, Hamline University School of Law and William Mitchell College of Law will combine their operations starting next fall. The reports make it sound, more or less, like Hamline is getting absorbed by its old rival. According to the Minneapolis Star Tribune, the new school will operate "independently" of Hamline—mostly out of William Mitchell's campus—and will be headed by William Mitchell's current dean. No word yet on layoffs.” [Emphasis mine]

It’s great to see mainstream publications using terms such as “JD mill.” Remember when such phrases were only being employed by scambloggers? Thanks to watershed articles from David Segal of the New York Times and the efforts of Paul Campos and Brian Tamanaha, it became acceptable for others to take a swing at the law school pigs.

Now, scroll down to Weissmann’s conclusion:

“According to an American Bar Association spokesman, this is the first time "in memory" that two accredited law schools have merged. (The ABA does not keep records of law school closings on hand, but the spokesman said no staff knew of any similar instances.) As far as the organization knows, no accredited law school has ever closed outright, either. But don't be shocked if it eventually happens.” [Emphasis mine]

I covered this TTT merger in my prior entry. However, this is an important moment in U.S. “legal education.” The cockroaches will need to decide whether they want to extend the scam until the old farts on the faculty retire or end up in wooden coats, at the expense of keeping their respective commodes viable long-term.

Other Coverage: On February 18, 2015, Adam Wahlberg posted a MinnPost article headlined “Why William Mitchell and Hamline Law had to merge.” Check out the following excerpt:

“There are a lot of reasons the merger of Hamline University and William Mitchell College of Law makes sense. But it’s also clear that they had to do this. That’s why the news was released on a Friday with a minimal amount of hurrahs. It’s a downsizing, not an occasion to throw confetti… 

Minnesota is conspicuous by its abundance of law students, and right-sizing has arrived. The boom times are over, and the 2008 recession won. Last year Hamline had just 90 [first year] students, making it one of only 25 law schools in the country with fewer than 100 [first year] students.  Hamline fought back as best it could. It zealously marketed, particularly its weekend JD track, which was apparent to anyone who walked through the downtown Minneapolis skyway system. But the enrollment numbers at both Hamline and William Mitchell were still down, in no small part thanks to each school’s tuition (holding steady at $30,000 for each) and job reports from the market (holding steady at fairly abysmal). 

And so Mitchell|Hamline School of Law was born out of necessity. It may take a while before it looks good on a sweatshirt.” [Emphasis mine]

Does anyone with an IQ above room temperature think that Mitchell|Hamline Sewer of Law will look good on a damn diploma?!?! Hell, they ought to issue these degrees on two-ply toilet paper. That’s about all your “education” is worth to employers, Lemming.

Later on, the piece contained this little nugget:

“[TTT Dean Jean] Holloway’s predecessor, Don Lewis, who today is in practice at Nilan Johnson Lewis, echoes Holloway’s sentiment, while noting that such a merger is close to unprecedented in American jurisprudence. 

“There have been only a couple other mergers of this magnitude,” said Lewis. “Michigan State and Detroit College of Law did one many years back, and about five years ago so did the University of New Hampshire and the Franklin Pierce Law Center. 

Those are the only ones I know of.” Those are the only ones so far, though there are rumors in the legal world about Vermont Law School and the University of Vermont pulling the trigger.” [Emphasis mine]

Don’t forget that Texas A&M University purchased a toilet formerly known as Texas Wesleyan SOL; Rutgers-Newark supposedly merging with Rutgers-Camden; Western Michigan University partnering with TTTT Cooley Law Sewer; various ABA commodes admitting students from the parent university without making them take the LSAT; accredited law schools in lily white areas targeting kids from Historically Black College$ and Univer$itie$; trash pits advertising on city buses; dung heaps continually admitting first year classes with declining LSAT scores and UGPAs; etc. Do you feel that the bitches and hags are resorting to such measures because they are doing so well?!?!

Conclusion: You can bet your ass that I am enjoying the hell out of this development. Don’t feel sorry for the pigs and cockroaches. If you start to do so, then just think of all the young lives that they have FINANCIALLY RUINED over the years. In the event that you are still sorrowful for the academic thieves, go ahead and jump into freeway traffic. By the way, it will be great to see the “educator” swine apply for actual jobs – where they will be expected to be productive – especially positions where they will no longer suck on the federal teat.


  1. Nando, this is a critical moment in dismantling this insidious industry. This is only the beginning. It took 6 years to get here but you are still here fighting the good fight against these avaricious and corrupt pigs known as law school deans and professors.

    I can tell that law schools are getting desperate. In past years, I would get 2 calls a year for "scholarship" donations to my "alma mater" law school. Now it seems I get them every 2 months. These hustlers have no shame. The send me emails and cards asking for a minimum of $500 as I continue to pay off my student loans which I am now in my 13th year of repayment.

    Another phenomenon I am seeing is that the law school is pestering me with emails asking me to volunteer my time to train/mentor a recent grad. The law school tries to guilt me/twist my arm into doing this by saying that it is my professional obligation to ensure that new lawyers are competent to service the public. FUCK THAT. I thought that was what the law school "academy" was for (sarcasm). I refuse to spend my precious time to train my competition. Why should I impart valuable knowledge and information that it took years for me to obtain on my own. Let the lemmings sink or swim since it was their "dream" to save the world by becoming a lawyer.

    Law schools are worse than ex-wives in that after you divorce them (graduate), they still harass you by asking for more money and more of you. What have the law schools done for you, except take 3 precious years and saddle you with obscene debt? For 3 years, my brain atrophied while I listened to ego-maniacal windbags pontificate about the law despite the fact that most professors had no real experience in practicing law. Oh sure, they may have clerked for Hugo Black or Bill Rehnquist (may Lucifer stick his pitchfork in this prick's soul everyday) or "worked" a couple of years at SullCrom, but the reality is did they litigate a case? Aside from pushing paper, these academic hacks know dick about the practice of law.

    Why can't law professors mentor recent grads since they possess the prestigious credentials to do so? Given that law professors only work a handful of hours a week, why can't they volunteer their time to help out their scammed victims? Oh, because they are above such things. Remember kids, do as I say, not as I do.

    I am contemplating bringing a class action lawsuit against my law school for violating the Do Not Call Registry and for using the U.S. Postal Service in their scheme to perpetuate massive fraud. After all, we know that any monies donated to these scam institutions are siphoned into the pockets of law school deans and professors. How much do you really think goes into a student's scholarship?

  2. BBQ! BBQ! BBQ! BBQ!

    Fuck yeah! I can eat that shit ALL DAY!

    1. I love barbecue too, but I don't want to eat it all day. If I did, I could end up just another obese pig of a law professor. If you think I'm kidding, check out a full body photograph of the notorious Brian Leiter.

  3. We are at critical mass. Nando, you are an unsung hero and should bask in the glory of your hard work lo these many years. The tipping point has been reached...and the world will be better for it.

  4. that skewer sticking up the pig's ass and out its mouth, as in the picture, should be termed the 'hamline.'

  5. :) And only the very first chickens have come home to roost.

    None of the truly horrible classes have graduated and taken the bar yet!

    The momentary and very nominal improvement that was had in employment *rates* is going to crash out - it was produced as schools accepted the last of modestly qualified applicants into much smaller classes.

    When the class shrinks, but in absolute numbers, you're actually placing fewer grads into jobs [of any kind], you can boast about your 55% employment rate up from 53% and so forth...

    In absolute numbers, the number of "jobs" (some of which pay no money) for new graduates continued to decline during this recovery from the Great Recession.

    This year, next year, the bloodbath will deepen.

    Watch out for your skins, pigs!

  6. Talking about many years back, that's also when Penn State acquired Dickinson, a school with an ancient reputation in the middle of nowhere. Then it built another law school in the middle of nowhere, at its main campus. Not much in the way of networking or practice experience is possible at either campus, so 21-year-old art history majors should avoid Penn State as if it were herpes or HPV.

  7. In AD 1900, the Chicago College of Law merged with Kent College of Law to form Chicago-Kent College of Law. Then, in 1969, it was acquired by Illinois Institute of Technology. So merger mania is nothing new in the exciting world of legal education.

    1. Chicago-Kent was a Third Tier Toilet then and it is a Third Tier Toilet now.

  8. I just found out that "New England Law | Boston," fka New England School of Law, was founded as the sister institution to Suffolk University Law School. However incestuous it may be, a shotgun marriage is likely to occur in the near future. I'll make sure to send flowers.

  9. I know I read this somewhere, and it's a shame nobody has saved it to link again. There's something like 7800 "good" legal jobs a year. Jobs that are full time, have stable career opportunities, job security, and pay a decent wage (and will provide salary increases as time goes on to beat inflation).

    There's maybe another 7500 or so less desirable positions that aren't stable and don't justify the cost of law school and the continuing cost of bar admission.

    After that, it's just doc review or nothing. But law schools don't graduate 15k grads a year, they graduate 40-50k. Even from the 70s on, only 50% of law grads remained/got into the legal field within 5 years of graduation. I'd imagine that number is worse with the overproduction and of course the collapse of the legal field.

    At this point, if you are part of the PPC law might be okay, but you can do better. If you aren't, it makes even less sense. I don't even know if HYS is truly worth it without PPC status. There are very few winners in this game on the students/employees side. The law schools and the employers all win out with this arrangement.

    I think their plan is to drag the field so far down that all the law schools close at once, and it just becomes an undergrad degree like around the rest of the world, with bar admission after experience like the CPA works.

  10. Ironically, I just got a credit card offer from the ABA and Bank of America. Good to know where those motherfuckers" interests are. Heaven forbid it be with the people they claim to represent.

    As always, Nando, keep fighting the good fight.

  11. There is very little leadership in legal education. These fucks only care about padding their 401Ks and preserving their 2-4 hour a week teaching gig. They are vile scum.

  12. It'll really be something when law school start merging with Taco Bell and Pizza Hut.

  13. A few notes:

    (1) Kudos to the scambloggers. This includes the readers whose searches have contributed to algorithms pointing toward TTR.

    (2) Though it took a long time for Hamline to come around and close their law $chool, good on the parent institution for swallowing their pride and closing their law departmenTTT. Even if long overdue, they're still the first to do the right thing. (Notwithstanding the wrong they have wrought thus far; this is a "better late than never" situation.)

    (3) I'm unpleasantly surprised that this didn't happen to more predatory schools like TJLS, Florida Costal, Charlotte, Suffolk, JMLS, Cooley, or know, the sort of school where there's absolutely no excuse to pretend like they're anything other than predatory.

    (4) It is worth noting that Hamline Law $hiTTThole doesn't cost $30K. It costs $39,536 and $20,192 if you--like any civilized grad student--lives off campus. Not that $30K is anything to sneeze at, but that's nowhere close to the devastation of debt-financing $60K per year.

    (5) "But the enrollment numbers at both Hamline and William Mitchell were still down, in no small part thanks to each school’s . . . job reports from the market (holding steady at fairly abysmal)." I like this guy. Too bad he didn't have the foresight to investigate this bubble, say, five years ago.

  14. Welcome aboard the titanic, matey! For the low, low, low price of $39,000 a year you can take this voyage. Sign up now and begin yer studies at the Shit Creek Skool o' Law.

  15. Higher ed is such a scam from top to bottom, from bottom to top, that one could get a job as a TSA baggage screener after high school and be better off than 90% of law school graduates. Although TSA jobs are part-time starting out and they are shitty jobs, at least after a couple years you can convert to full-time and make way more than most college grads and have no debt. Heck even most TSA baggage screeners make more than most lawyers and have stable federal employment pnce they pass probation and get seniority. Now granted, it takes two years to get the job but you'll be better off.

    1. Agreed. At least the two-year investment stands a reasonable chance of paying off. For many JDs with crippling debt, they are still waiting for their "investment" to pay off some ten or twenty years later. Th "million-dollar-degree," everybody...for Law School Cartel, that is.

    2. lol that "million dollar" lifetime earnings is such a joke. Probably because the bankers and politicians hold degrees and make $100M more than everyone else. Just like law school the stats are rigged.

    3. Ka-Boom Baby!

      Every time I hear that spiel, I have this urge to go all Crazy Squealing Money. It's just so damn WRONG!

      A million dollars of value?

      From where? I couldn't even get a goddamned measly $40k starting job when I got out - and I wasn't the only one. One guy in my class took 4 years before landing that first law job. I quit looking in law and went non-law. Not because I wanted to. Because I had to. It was called: I needed a job.

      So, um.. where .. exactly .. did my $1 million in value come from by me having my JD?

      The only people my degree was "valuable" to were the fucking lenders.

      And yes, my school kept sending literature and asking for donations after the rape occurred. That made me feel even better!

    4. Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree about going for the TSA. Just like the law school scam cartel, the TSA is where bad people (thugs, thieves, bullies, pedophiles, etc.) get hired to make people miserable, and get paid with YOUR tax dollars to do it. IMHO, both the TSA and the LOL SKOOL Cartel should be shut down in one fell swoop, and that day can't come soon enough. Let their sorry excuses for "employees" lose their make-work "jobs" and suffer in this horrible economy just like the rest of us common folk. They don't deserve to be trusted with our nation's "security" any more than the lol skool deans and professors deserve to be trusted with "teaching law" or "pursuing justice" or any of that other bullshit.

      Read all the stuff at this site if you don't believe me:
      And here we've got confessions of a former agent, one of the few good guys in a field dominated by low-life scum:
      (Hm, would that make him to the TSA what Campos or Tamanaha are to the law school scam?)


    The Star Tribune published a piece from reporter Maura Lerner, entitled “Campus beat: Hamline-Mitchell move shows law schools’ sagging fortunes,” on February 18, 2015. Take a look at this opening:

    “Jerry Organ wasn’t surprised to hear last week that two of Minnesota’s four law schools are planning to merge in the face of dropping enrollment.

    As a law professor himself, at the University of St. Thomas, he’s been blogging about the sagging fortunes of American law schools for some time.

    Hamline University’s law school and William Mitchell College of Law, both in St. Paul, may be the first to merge as a result of the changing legal landscape. But Organ says some shake-up was inevitable. “Law school,” he wrote, “is an expensive proposition for which the return on investment is questionable.”

    Since 1985, he wrote, the average law school tuition has soared more than 1,000 percent — from $2,000 a year to $22,000 — at public universities; and 400 percent at private schools, to more than $39,000 a year.

    That didn’t seem to scare students away until the Great Recession, when the job market for law graduates took a hit. Suddenly, law school was no longer the safe bet it once was.

    The resulting drop in applications — nearly 40 percent since 2010 — posed an existential challenge, according to Organ. “Many schools have found themselves in a ‘pick your poison’ scenario,” he wrote on the Legal Whiteboard blog in 2014. Either they settled for smaller freshman classes — and less tuition revenue — or they admitted some students they would have rejected in the past, with lower LSAT scores.”

    Organ puts it mildly, as only an academic could, huh? Calling law school “an expensive proposition” with a questionable ROI is the equivalent of saying that “using meth may impact your health adversely.” At this point, pretty much everyone who has performed basic research into the area knows that U.S. “legal education” is a terrible risk for most. Then again, at least "law professors" are starting to accept reality.

  17. Are kids really that stupid that they fall for the Simkovic hack paper which touts the JD as "The Million Dollar degree?"

    I read the paper when it came out and it contained numerous fallacies which were covered by Elie Mystal (at Above the Law) and other respected folks (Paul Campos). Of course the defenders of such "scholarshit" defend the thesis by saying that those that criticize the paper are too simple minded to understand the esoteric nature and formulas used to reach the million dollar conclusion. In other words, these academic hucksters continue to use smoke and mirrors (disguised as "sophistry") to dupe college grads into going to law school. What a disgusting industry.

  18. W&L struggling. See campos article in lawyers guns and money. Hip hip HOORAY. Roast pigs.

  19. It truly is a credit to the scamblog movement for getting the word out there forcibly enough and long enough that it would eventually spill over into the mainstream. The kids today know or should know about the extent of The Law School Scam. Kids, unless connected, stick to the T-14 or at least drop out if you're not top 10% at a TTT. Otherwise, you're on your own. This "industry" was long overdue for an adjustment, and that's going to occur whether the deans and administrators like it or not. The realities are there for all too see and the quality of the incoming classes is plummeting. Law is not going to employ the numbers it once did in the way it once did.

    1. And I would have more sympathy for the ScamDeans and LawProfs if the didn't honestly know what they were doing all along, and were training students in good-faith for a market in need.

      But they willfully were not. And on top of it, they just didn't care, as they were too absorbed with their no-work scholarshit and pulling down fat paychecks. How can you live with yourself, knowing that you are sending your students into the abbatoir year after year?

      Now we know. And Karma is indeed a bitch.

  20. While this is good news, why are so many truly awful law schools still open? Why do people still enroll? I'd love to see a survey of the 1Ls at Indiana Tech or TJ or this new mess; I can't imagine what they are thinking.
    And that's the problem: so long as there are federal loan dollars for dolts to spend on law school, the scam will never end.

  21. Must read article about the legal education cartel:

    "But the core factor in the escalating cost of legal education is that the guild of law school professors long ago captured the combined regulatory apparatus of the American Bar Association (ABA) and the AALS. We law professors have constructed a legal education model that, first and foremost, serves faculty interests—higher salaries, more faculty protected by tenure, smaller and fewer classes, shorter semesters, generous sabbatical and leave policies and supplemental grants for research and writing. We could not have done better for ourselves, except that the system is now collapsing."

  22. Layoffs coming to the faculty? LOL! I'm sure the Wachtell partners cleared their schedules upon receipt of this news. They fired up the Learjet to blaze a path out to Minneapolis. Fuck it, they don't have time to land. The partners are going to jump out of the jet with parachutes and briefcases to sign these legal geniuses before Skadden does.

  23. Just remember law school fools that garbage men and janitors at various government agencies have a better financial future than you do! Those you look down upon, will be soon looking down upon you as you drow n in a lake of crushing student loan debt and no one can save you. There are police department employees whose benefits (not their base pay, overtime and vacation pay cash-outs) exceed the salaries you will earn follwing your graduation from law school. Go to Transparent California and see for yourself the kind of cash that California state, county and city employees raking in!

    1. The janitors are more useful than you too...

      Certainly more useful than me....

    2. Agreed! Janitord are more useful than me and some city janitors make big bank plus they retire at 55.

  24. From the comments section of the Jordan Weissmann article noted in the main entry:

    The Top Comment - as designated by Slate - belongs to Joe from Clarksville:

    "Why do people still enroll in these crappy fifth-tier law schools? I mean, they're not really cheaper than the best law schools with the highest placement rates, so it's not like they're saving money."

    This only scratches the surface. In fact, these third tier commodes and fourth tier trash pits often charge higher tuition rates than the good schools. Plus, the VAST MAJORITY of TTT students are limited to low-paid "public interest" work- from day one of law school.

    Just take a look at this chart, pertaining to Average Law Student Indebtedness for 2013 Grads, furnished by US "News" & World Report. Here are the top 10 dung heaps listed:

    Thomas Jefferson Sewer of Law, $180,665;
    New York Law $chool, $164,739;
    American University, $158,636;
    California Western Sewer of Law, $157,748;
    Northwestern University, $155,777;
    Whittier College, $154,267;
    University of Chicago , $153,753;
    Florida Coastal Sewer of Law, $150,360;
    St. Thomas University, $150,166;
    University of Miami, $148,513

    Other than Northwestern and University of Chicago, NONE of those diplomas is even worth the slightest consideration. Keep in mind that the list above is not complete, as several piles of excrement refused to provide their data to US "News." Good luck trying to repay such outrageous sums of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt - and covering basic necessities - while raking in $35K per year.

    1. Could you imagine leaving American University with a JD and $158,000 in debt? Any employers willing to hire you would have 200 other unemployed American U grads to choose from, plus thousands of other refuges from toilet schools.

      Once you left American U, the fantasy would be over for good and real life would be a living hell of debt and rejection. Just say no to the overpaid deans and professors at American U. It's been reported that the primary dean can barely speak English.

    2. $158k is optimistic, DC is extremely expensive and American doesn't really give out much in the way of scholarships because there are so many dummies that want to go there but can't make one of the higher ranked DC schools.

      In terms of jobs, they seem to end up at SSD mills like Binder&Binder or recruiters at doc review shops and the like. I can't imagine the majority of AU grads can pay off their loans, but there is a high number of students there from privileged families so they don't have to worry about student loan debt. It's pathetic though when even said families can't get their children into better employment positions.

      Most are liberal dreamers that toil away on campaigns and the like for years, listing their internships from law school long after graduation. But perhaps the same is true for most law grads.

  25. per the ABA's stats for American's class of 2013: at 9 months, 96 grads are listed as "unemployed" another 10 are "employment status unknown" which is unemployed-so that's 106; another 60(!) are employed by the university, no doubt in those 160K a year jobs we hear so much about(ok, probably getting $20/hr). We've also got 19 pursuing a graduate degree full time(not enough debt for them, I suppose) and 10 more who are unemployed with a deferred start date(at 9 months? Seriously?).
    So what's the return on investment of $158K....?
    Why does anyone enroll at AU?

  26. Just had a conversation with a senior administrative officer of a TTT who informed me that his school was forced to lay off 40% of the tenured faculty and had suffered a 55% reduction in first year enrollment over the last 3 years. This same individual had confidently pontificated, 3 years ago, that the decline in the number of employed attorneys would not affect his law school because of the versatility of a law degree. The self-delusion is becoming harder to maintain. Not sure how much longer these TTT schools can hang on, but the fourth tier proprietary schools will soon be toast. No practicing attorney I have spoken with in the last year would recommend attending a non T-7 school.


    On September 25, 2014, Staci Zaretsky posted a short ATL entry, which was entitled "Which Law Schools Will Be The First To Close? Expert Hazards A Guess." Here is the entirety of that piece:

    "I believe there will be, in all likelihood, about a half-dozen schools that are on anybody’s watch list."

    – [Cockroach] Michael Olivas, former president of the Association of American Law Schools, speaking about the future of law schools amid a discussion of the financial troubles Thomas Jefferson School of Law is currently facing, a situation that he described in the Chronicle of Higher Education as “a canary in the coal mine of legal education.”

    I profiled Michael Olivas and his ratty-ass beard and nasty teeth on TTR, back on August 13, 2011. Apparently, the rodent now feels that some ABA-accredited dung heaps will shutter their doors. Then again, the pig is approaching retirement age - and presumably doesn't give a damn what happens to "legal education" as long as he can fade off into the sunset with loot from the federal taxpayer.

    1. I just looked up the August 2011 post as well as the epic academic biography of Michael Olivas, BA, MA, PhD, JD. All the evidence indicates that he is a bizarre and disgusting individual. He worries that certain law schools may have to close, but he doesn't worry about the financial devastation that lies in store for their current students. What a pampered, selfish, dumpster-dwelling pig he is.

  28. Opening of New Law School in Qatar.

    Hamad bin Khalifa University Launches Postgraduate JD Program Law Degree and its New Law School

    This new JD program has been made possible through a strategic partnership with Northwestern University School of Law; with a strong focus on international comparative law, resulting from extensive consultation and effort with faculty and staff from Northwestern Law.

  29. Nando, I just had to share this with you:

    Check out the NY Federal Reserve's Liberty Street economics blog:

    They just did a post on student loan repayment. Allow me to summarized, because it's UNBELIEVABLY BAD:

    About 780 billion of the 1.2 or 1.3 trillion in federal student loans is in repayment, of that:

    1. 17% delinquent 90+ days

    2. 33% current BALANCE RISING (i.e. income-contingent repayment, and not even making full interest due for one month)

    3. 13% current BALANCE THE SAME (i.e. income-contingent repayment, but only able to pay monthly interest, no principal reduced)

    4. 37% in repayment, balance not delinquent

    Oh snap, without income-contingent repayment, that looks like, minimally, a 63% DEFAULT RATE!!

    LOL: they did a cohort study of how loans with a balance of 100+ exiting school performed 2009-204 (AKA LAW GRADS)...

    About 20% defaulted. About 24% had their balances grow during that period. Another 20% experienced a delinquency of 120 days or more...ALL THIS WITH IBR.

    All this and untold human suffering for a gold-plated latte machine, pervasive consumer fraud, anti-trust violations, regulatory capture, etc. etc.

    Literally, the roaches will destroy this country if they are not stopped.

  30. Nando, it may be time to "update" the TTR profile of Mr. Olivas. ;)


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