Saturday, April 11, 2015

Open Letter to the Graduating JD Class of 2015

Average Law Student Indebtedness: Every year, a defunct magazine called US “News” & World Report publishes its idiotic law school rankings and people go crazy over this nonsense. However, it also rates ABA-accredited diploma mills by the amount of debt their students incur. For $ome rea$on, law school administrators and “professors” don’t pay much attention to this chart. Here are the biggest totals for the JD Class of 2014, of those reporting their figures – with the percentage of those taking out loans and the school’s overall rating from USN&WR:

Thomas Jefferson School of Law, $172,445, 91%, TTTT
New York Law School, $166,622, 83%, 127th greatest
Northwestern University, $163,065, 80%, 12th 
Florida Coastal School of Law, $162,785, 93%, TTTT
American University (Washington), $159,316, 83%, 71st “best”
Vermont Law School, $156,713, 84%, 122nd most amazing
Touro College (Fuchsberg), $154,855, 85%, TTTT 
University of San Francisco, $154,321, 88%, 138th
Columbia University, $154,076, 76%, 4th
Whittier College, $151,602, 91%, TTTT

Yes, who wouldn’t want to take out such outrageous sums of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt, for the mere opportunity to sit for the bar exam, right?!?! Again, these totals do not include debt from undergrad. They also do not take accruing interest into account.

Hell, even Columbia is no longer a safe bet for many students. Since you are about to receive your law degree – and at one point, you viewed yourself as having brilliant critical thinking skills – then you should notice that most of the schools on the list above are low-ranked cesspools that provide their graduates with weak-ass employment prospects.

Bureau of Labor Statistics Data: Take a look at the entry for lawyers in the Occupational Handbook, provided by the U.S. Department of Labor. Specifically, focus on the following:

“Job Outlook

Employment of lawyers is projected to grow 10 percent from 2012 to 2022, about as fast as the average for all occupations. Competition for jobs should continue to be strong because more students graduate from law school each year than there are jobs available.” [Emphasis mine]

What portion of that description gave you the idea that you were making a sound financial decision? In the end, YOU need to view law school PRIMARILY as an economic choice – because this will impact you for the rest of your life. If you do not practice law for one damn day, you still must repay the debt. It doesn’t matter if you fail the bar exam, or if people don’t hire your ass to represent them – even after you get your license.

Class of 2013 National Summary Chart: According to the NALP Class of 2013 National Summary Report, 86.4 percent of this massive cohort was employed within nine months of graduation, for those whose employment status was known. Of course, this figure includes non-law positions, attorney jobs, part-time and full-time work, plus long term and temporary posts.

Overall, there were 46,776 members of the JD Class of 2013 – competing for a total of 28,746 jobs labeled “bar passage required.” Keep in mind that not all of those positions were traditional attorney openings. Then again, only 45,592 graduates had their info sent to NALP. Using the entire class size, a mere 61.5% of all JDs ended up finding such legal work, i.e. 28,746/46,776. However, this figure jumps all the way up to 64.4 percent, when relying on those for whom employment status was known, i.e. 28,764/44,637.

Scroll down to page two of this PDF, and go to the subheading Type of Law Firm Job. You will notice that a total of 16,672 members of this class reported working as private lawyers. Presumably, this figure includes desperate solos and recent grads who decided to hang a shingle with their classmates. This represents 37.4 percent of those who supplied their employment status, i.e. 16,672/44,637. Imagine if medical school graduates faced a similar job outlook, after completing their professional schooling.

This is the cohort right before your group. You ignored the extensive articles and signs out there and still took the plunge. If you cannot look out for your own financial self interest, then how the hell do you expect to represent others in legal, personal and financial matters?!?! Apparently, you could not be bothered to conduct a few hours – at most – of online research. At least, the lazy “professors” got paid well – at your expense.

Conclusion: In the final analysis, you cannot avoid the following harsh truths: (a) the U.S. lawyer job market is GLUTTED; (b) outsourcing, LPOs, vendors such as LegalZoom, and other advances in software have taken a serious collective toll on the need for more attorneys; (c) these technological improvements will not slow down and, in fact, will continue to impact the legal industry; (d) law school is incredibly expensive as tuition has SKYROCKETED to disgusting levels; (e) legal academics do not adequately prepare students to practice law; and (f) the law school pigs do not give one goddamn about you, the student or recent graduate. Do you have a financial death wish?! 

Furthermore, as William Henderson of Indiana University Maurer Sewer of Law noted years ago, in his bimodal distribution analysis: if you do not land Biglaw, then you are looking at making $35K-$55K per year upon graduation. Based on this chart from NALP, this still holds true. Do the math, simpleton. You will not be able to reasonably repay $150K+ in student loans, while taking care of your necessities, on a $39K annual salary. Enjoy eating Ramen noodles and living in your parents’ home when you’re 32 years old.


  1. The class of 2015 should have been fully aware of these kinds of numbers. The law school scam had long since been exposed, and the warnings were available for everyone to see.

    I have no sympathy for 2015 TTTT grads who can't find any work. They dug their graves, and they now have to lay in them.

  2. ^I have no sympathy for anyone that attended law school after 2010. We should bring back debtors prisons.

    1. I disagree. Why should the government punish what they allowed to happen through student loans?

    2. 'more students graduate from law school each year than there are jobs available.'

      That's from the government. And if I'm not mistaken that language has been up there for years.

    3. Their debts were incurred in fraudulent transactions and are therefore invalid.

    4. @926,

      Completely non-fraudulent. It's like watching a hobo completely eat a meal at a restaurant and then refuse to pay his bill. As they're loading the bum into the police cruiser, he starts grumbling that it was a "fraudulent transaction" since he didn't like the food (which he are every last bite of, BTW).

      There was definitely some "fraud" there - but I don't think it was perpetrated by the restaurant!

    5. "It's like watching a hobo completely eat a meal at a restaurant and then refuse to pay his bill."

      Sure, but in the case of student loans, the "restaurant" watched the "hobo" walk in, knew he was a hobo and had no money or other assets, but nevertheless seated the hobo and let him order whatever he wanted. Does the restaurant bear no responsibility for the outcome of that scenario?

    6. @637

      You mean the restaurant selling a cheeseburger for $46.73 plus interest and paying its waiters $100k a year because it was a magical and versatile cheeseburger that would give you an earnings premium isn't doing anything wrong?

    7. @652,

      Um, if the restaurant is too expensive, don't go there.

      But don't eat a meal there and then demand after the fact that it be free.

    8. Um, if the customer is a hobo and can't pay, don't seat him at your restaurant. Don't extend him a limitless line of credit and allow him to consume meals for three years when all available evidence indicates a lack of ability to repay.

      Why don't we stop pretending that the "taxpayer" is an innocent victim in this scenario? The government is aware that school costs too much, and yet freely offers loans to students, knowing full well many of these loans will never be repaid. The very existence of IBR and PAYE is an in-advance acknowledgment of the fact that many student borrowers will not be able to repay the loans.

      If there is a hungry hobo, which makes more sense as public policy: 1) set up a soup kitchen; or 2) offer the hobo limitless loans to purchase any food he wants from overpriced restaurants?

      If we choose the latter option, we only have ourselves to blame when the loans aren't repaid.

    9. Whatever, 734. Restaurants (and lenders) should be able to presume the good faith of someone who promises (in writing, no less) that they will pay back the debts that they incur. And the law should (and will) provide remedies if that person breaks his promise.

    10. "If there is a hungry hobo, which makes more sense as public policy: 1) set up a soup kitchen; or 2) offer the hobo limitless loans to purchase any food he wants from overpriced restaurants?"

      The correct answer is 3) Kill the hobos.

    11. 4:50, good faith has nothing to do with this. Do you have any idea how student lending works these days? From the outset, the mutual agreement of the parties PRESUMES that many student borrowers will not be able to repay the loans. That is the essence of IBR (Income Based Repayment), PAYE (Pay As You Earn), and PSLF (the public service version of IBR). These repayment schemes are part of the contract between the parties. The government is essentially saying, "Student, go ahead and borrow this money, and if you can't afford the standard repayment plan, we have these other options including the possibility of a $0 monthly payment, and we'll forgive the balance after a term of years." So if a student borrower can't afford to repay the loans, they are not "breaking their promise" by looking for a reduction or write-off. That's how these loans are intended to work. That's what was agreed to at the time the loan documents are executed. This is why your restaurant analogy misses the mark, and also why your moralizing lectures are misplaced. The problem is, these are bad loans that should not be made in the first place. I have no idea why you cannot seem to grasp this concept.

    12. "From the outset, the mutual agreement of the parties PRESUMES that many student borrowers will not be able to repay the loans."

      Absolutely preposterous.

      I win.

    13. Did I miss something? The lazy deadbeat students aren't even SUGGESTING that they receive a present from the law schools - right? So in the "restaurant" analogy, greedy motherfuckers like April 17 @7:20 want to (1) walk down the street and break into some random guy's house, (2) steal his possessions, and (3) give the $300K to the hobo so he can pay his bills.

      Fuck that bullshit. I think we should all be able to agree that the bill should be settled between the Hungry Hungry Hobos and the Restaurant of Pure Evil. Leave the taxpayers out of your solution, you selfish fuck. If the law schools have already spent all the money on wine, women and song, and can't make restitution to the student, then TOUGH!

  3. Living in their parents' homes at 32 is probably one of the better outcomes these lemmings can hope for.

    A lot of them are homeless and living out of their cars. The scam now has targeted minorities and people from low income backgrounds, who are unlikely to even have a 2 parent home anymore, more likely a single mother in an apartment that wants nothing to do with them.

    The female grads try to find a man with money to pay their student loans for them. But the pool of sucker beta males with money is really winding down now, and even the beta males with money are beginning to figure out they can just get women without the debt or far less of it, and several years younger.

    The male law grads, lol. I can really only just lol at them, sorry. Male law grads crack me up. Even the ones from top law schools struggle, but at least they have a shot. The ones from lower ranked schools though, haha.

  4. The Class of 2015 gets ZERO sympathy from yours truly. As many have pointed out, the Bureau of Labor Statistics has been reporting for the better part of the last decade that there is only one job for every 2 or 3 law graduates. Older lawyers are not retiring when they turn 62 or 65. Many are working into their late 80s. The billable hour is dying a slow death and the race to the bottom for legal services pricing has been accelerated by the law schools pumping out more law grads than the market can absorb. The Class of 2015 should wear their promissory notes like a badge of shame. They were duped into buying a worthless education and now they hope the taxpayers will bail them out. Fuck them. Let them live a life of penury. Let them dine on sodium rich ramen noodles as the upside of that diet is an early natural discharge of their student loans (via death). The writing was on the wall and either these millennials were illiterate or too dumb to figure out what their likely fate would turn out if they pursued the foolish endeavor known as law school. More dupes will follow and as bar exam pass rates continue to crater, the public will have bottom feeding dummies to serve the bar. Hell at this point even the character on Better Call Saul has more aptitude to practice law than some of the morons being defecated from the law schools.

    NY Hiring Partner

    1. ^ TITCR. If they EVER forgave student loans (or made them dischargeable in bankruptcy as one particularly bitter failed commenter keeps demanding), the tuition for each student would probably explode to ten million dollars the very next morning.

      Most of these jobless wonders could get SOME kind of work if they tried, but many of these "edumacated" turn their noses up at the "lesser" occupations. They're too good and/or educated for manual labor.

      So, yeah. Fuck 'em.

    2. P.S. If they ever forgave the student loans, I swear I would immediately move to fucking Andorra and stop paying taxes.

    3. Newsflash. The federal government owns all these loans, so there is no choice with respect to taking a hit to anticipated revenue when they are not repaid.

      When you talk about the terrible legal employment market, and declining wages, all you are saying is these loans are all bad.

      Every lemming will cost you, bankruptcy or not.

    4. So the taxpayers will get ZERO dollars back on ALL of the student loans - whether they forgive them or not?

      That's what you're saying?

      Honest question, 553: do you actually believe your own nonsense?

  5. Yup no excuses for these dumbasses. This site has an archive of info on the toilet schools. How tuition is through the roof, admins making $500k+ per year, nonexistent prospects.

    Life is about choices. You make a decision and deal with the consequences. Lemmings made their choice in light of the mountain of evidence showing law school is a scam. Now they must wear the millstone of student debt around their necks. Life isn't a video game where you spawn in the cargo bay of a spaceship after getting shot. Lemmings have to live with their mistakes.

    Let's not take away attention from the scamprofs and greedy admins though. These sociopaths lied to legions of students and ruined the lemmings just to score some cash.

    1. ^ You can't "lie" to someone who is willfully blind.

      When you think about it, the "scamprofs" AND the lemmings are benefitting. The law school gets the money upfront; meanwhile, the lemming gets a nice 3-year vacation from reality at what is - for all intents and purposes - a posh resort. And there's a chance (however remote) that it'll pay off for him in the long run .

      If the law school and one of its students hatched a conspiracy to scam taxpayer money (and then divided it), I would not call the student a "victim" just because he spent his half of the loot on 200,000 lottery tickets.

    2. Gosh talk about a Faustian bargain from the students perspective. . .

    3. It's not even a Faustian bargain-he at least got something(ok, so it didn't turn out so well for him either in the long run)-in this case, the students get nothing but a generally worthless degree and a mountain of debt.
      And while I take no pleasure in the debt load of the students, and don't care if the loans are ultimately forgiven in bankruptcy(after all, the loans are never going to be repaid, and forgiveness through bankruptcy may allow some to actually start a life).
      That said, at what point are these students to held responsible? Everybody knows that attending a poorly regarded law school while taking on debt is a terrible idea which may impair finances for life(look at yesterday's Law School Lemmings entry for example). Yet every year thousands enroll in these schools, and pay with federal student loan guarantees. It's a loser's bet-but every year thousands roll the dice. But it's a bet they willingly take-so at what point do they have to accept responsibility for their actions?

  6. Pretty much agree with all of the above-the information's out there, so not much sympathy for unemployed 2015 grads.
    The problem is that the law scammers continue to get fat and happy with the limitless supply of dolts willing to waste three years using someone else's money-specifically the taxpayers' money. So the scammers get rich, the dolts accrue massive debt they'll never pay back-and the taxpayers get stuck with the bill. So no sympathy from me for anyone but the taxpayers.
    It's a con, pure and simple. Not sure how it's ever going to be stopped, as it doesn't appear that Congress has any interest in addressing this issue. And unless Congress acts, we'll be talking about the scam for years, if not decades, to come.

  7. keep the debt not dischargeable. Fuck these idiots. You signed on the dotted line. You knew the job market for lawyers (especially ones from TTTT shit heaps) was godawful. You knew the debt must be repaid. Now be a fucking man and pay your debt.

    If you ever make this dischargeable through bankruptcy, you'll have an army of shitlings walking away with TTTT law degrees and $200k (or even $300k) in loans they took out. Fuck those assholes.

    1. ^and any bailout for retards with $300k in student debt is a bailout for (get this) the fucking law schools. If you have a law degree from a shithole and you have too much fucking debt and a shit job, fuck you. Pay it back or leave the country. If you choose to stay in the country, then fulfill your contractual and legal obligation and repay your fucking loans. If you don't do that, you have no right to complain.

    2. Certainly TTTT matriculants are idiots, but the scam won't stop unless the benefactors are eliminated. But-for the lenders this scam would not exist. It is the lenders who provide the least value to society; make grad school loans dischargeable in bankruptcy. There is no need to conflate undergrad loans with grad loans--there is no slippery slope issue.

      TTTT students are idiots, but it is the enablers who should face the music. I have little sympathy for idiots and I have little sympathy for vulture capitalists, but profiting off a 22-year-old who assumes $150K for a mediocre shot at a $60K salary is complicity in an unconscionable contract. These lenders should not exist.

  8. Until they cap student loans, or introduce creditworthiness measurements for the borrowers and the schools, the scam will never truly end. It is absurd that 20-somethings can borrow $170k to attend a trash pit that leaves 70% of its grads out in the cold. Absolutely insane....

    1. Amen. The loans have got to stop. They are the lifeblood of the scam, which won't end until the loans end.

  9. Wow, a lot of hate out there for recent law-school suckers (who, by the way, probably did not take on nearly as high of student loan debt as the class of 2012, 2013, or even 2014 did because of steep tuition discounts). They won't get law jobs or good ones if they do, but they won't necessarily be financially destroyed.

    Projecting much? I can't help but feel a few of you are trying to talk to the 22 year old version of yourselves who signed on the dotted line.

    1. The internet sure is a toxic place. More than anything the comments on this site reflect how much of a failed society America is. People would rather root for human suffering than help another.

    2. So now it's considered "hate" to not want to give someone a $200K bailout? Or to expect them to pay back the money that they borrow.

      No wonder this country is a hop, skip, and a step from turning into the Soviet fucking Union.

    3. You date yourself by invoking the USSR.

      This country is dead broke. Prospective retirees should really fight to end student lending, because their entitlement programs are massively underfunded; they're going to need that 150 billion per year now being poured into bad loans.

    4. OP here.

      "So now it's considered "hate" to not want to give someone a $200K bailout?"

      No. These are:
      "I have no sympathy for 2015 TTTT grads."
      "They should bring back debtors prisons."
      "Fuck them. Let them live a life of penury. Let them dine on sodium rich ramen noodles as the upside of that diet is an early natural discharge of their student loans (via death)."
      "So, yeah. Fuck 'em."
      "Fuck these idiots. You signed on the dotted line. ... you'll have an army of shitlings walking away with TTTT law degrees and $200k (or even $300k) in loans they took out. Fuck those assholes."
      "If you have a law degree from a shithole and you have too much fucking debt and a shit job, fuck you. Pay it back or leave the country."

      I'm not necessarily for loan forgiveness either. I'm for allowing them to declare bankruptcy and spending the next 7 years with limited access to credit.

    5. @750,

      Bankruptcy IS loan forgiveness, dumbfuck.

    6. @9:09 So PSLF is bankruptcy? Dear God you a retard. I can't believe a law school graduate would make that claim.

    7. @749,

      Dumbfuck, I said that bankruptcy was loan forgiveness. That would make loan forgiveness the larger category. Bankruptcy is a subset of that. Not the other way around. You are relying on the fallacy of the undistributed middle and then dismissing your own fallacy, dumbfuck.

      I can't believe a HIGH school graduate doesn't understand that debts are "forgiven" through bankruptcy - or that the bitter failures who haunt this site are demanding that it also be applied to student loans. How would that NOT be loan forgiveness?

    8. @749-Calm down. Bankruptcy is allowed in every other type of debt, even tax debt after some period of time. It is not unreasonable by any measure to have bankruptcy protections extended to student loan debt...hell it extends to your credit card you used to buy extenze pills.

    9. @422,

      Student loans are different. It's the ONLY circumstance where anyone will loan several hundred thousand dollars to a borrower who has no tangible assets or security.

      If you don't like that practice, then petition to have it stopped. I for one would agree with that position.

      But if you think an entity that loans out $300,000 without security should allow the borrower to IMMEDIATELY turn sideways and disappear by filing for bankruptcy, then you are out of your mind.

      Find me the person who was able to rack up 300,000 in "gambling debts" by borrowing that amount from a casino (and who doesn't have any assets, of course).

  10. The problem I have with the analysis that concludes screw the recent grads is that they in many cases are idiots who were taken advantage of. Look at some of the lsat scores from TTT. They are now in the 140's and I think high 130's at a couple of trash pits. Anyone with scores like this should have a guardian. I didn't rock the lsat but I think guessing "C" on every question would produce a score close to this. If one were to view the theory of unconscionability subjectively taking into account the humble intellectual capabilities of this cohort one could be forgiven for thinking that the debt should be discharged

    1. All the hate on this forum is from rich lawyers who are probably sociopaths and have nothing better to do on a beautiful Saturday than spew negativity towards new lawyers who are having massive problems finding work. The student loan crisis will eventually be fixed by having the taxpayers eat the debt just like the 2008 debt crisis. Let the old farts tell us to get off their lawn as much as they want, it's funny because they will pay off our debt. Thanks Boomers!

    2. 416/424,

      Well, if you feel THAT badly for them, might I make the modest suggestion that you get ahead of the power curve and donate some of your OWN money to the student loan debtors?

      Fat chance, right? I've always said that cretins like you are no different than the fat cats, banks, etc that you denounce. Like them, you just want YOUR share of the taxpayers' money - but unlike them, you are just completely ineffectual at getting it.

      Pretty sure that selfish fucks who want other people's money are the real sociopaths here. You must be the president of the local chapter or something.

    3. 433,

      The point I'm making is millions of people have no ability to re-pay the terms of student loans. They have no jobs or assets. The loans are blowing up. Keep on trucking brah. Thanks for the love.

    4. "No *desire* to repay the loans by working" is more like it.

      With a heart-touching, crowd-pleasing story like that, I can see why you would think it's only a matter of time before an angry army of taxpayers absolutely DEMANDS the right to pay off your student loans for you. Why, it's as inevitable as the dawn!

      So *YOU* keep on trucking! CLEARLY you are going to eventually win this.


    5. There are no jobs. If lawyers could work, they would. I would pay back every penny if I could. There are no jobs, that's why sites like this exist. It's a mess.

    6. @526,

      I heard the Army was hiring.

    7. Go work on a North Dakota oil rig.

    8. @553/803,


    9. @ 8:03 PM

      How exactly did you miss the fact that crude has fallen 60% in price in 6 months and the shale oil boom is busting?

      Do you live under a rock????

      Definitely no one should take advice from a guy who is so completely unaware of the biggest US economic story of the last 6 months. Good. Lord.

    10. @930,

      I heard the Army was hiring.

      Any takers from the people who WOULD work, if they COULD?

    11. 9:30 is 100% right. 100k+ jobs have been lost recently and the economy sucks everywhere. I have a law license that is economically worthless along with tens of thousands of others. I have to re-train for another career now and put myself further in debt.

    12. Really, 553? It must be differant than the branch I served in because I took an early-out to get out of the military and they were PAYING staff and officers to get out early when I left ~6 months ago and had been for almost two years.

    13. @1116,

      You heard it here, folks - for the first time ever, the U.S. military IS NO LONGER HIRING!

      ^ WHOOPS! Where did THAT link come from?!

      On the plus side, 5:26 will be bouncing off the walls with joy to learn that someone out there IS hiring, and that his long, intense search for work has FINALLY paid off.


    14. @ 12:09

      You know debt can make you ineligible to join the military, right? Even student loans...

    15. Hiring? Yes, but with the economic downturn the military isn't the take-all-comers free for all it was during the height of our protracted two-theater ground war. Units are being downsized, flight squadrons are being grounded, etc etc.

      Competition for jobs is tight meaning it's no guarantee that you can even get a job in the area you want, to say nothing of going into an officer program. For the even more competitive JAG slots it's even less realistic that someone who wasn't able to find legal employment would be competitive.

      Plus, competition being high you'd better have your physical fitness and body composition (which generally aren't explicit grounds for hiring/firing in the civilian world) on lock before you even apply. Plus no medical contraindications, unauthorized tattoos or moral qualms about taking up arms in the course of your duties.

      So yes, you can feel safe and smug that the military is "always hiring" but that may mean that what is available and obtainable is a (moderately to incredibly shitty) enlisted job making about 20K a year starting plus free room and board and the best medical care your service will grudgingly provide you.

      I'm also going to guess that most of the people who flippantly suggest all these out of work JD's join the military don't actually know anything about the military/never served themselves.

    16. @113/128,

      My my my, some people just have a HATFUL of excuses for not working, don't they?

      First they try to say that there are NO available jobs whatsoever. Then - once it has been made so undeniably clear that there are jobs for them that even THEY can no longer deny it - they release an avalanche of excuses about why they are not the right "fit" for the available job.

      I'll bet you will explain away any job that I name, won't you? Let's try this out:

      High School Janitor, with PSLF after ten years - go!


    17. @3:52 PM

      Medicare Part D is free to you, Boomer. Go get some 'free' psych medications, you know the kids are paying for it.

    18. @516,

      Still waiting ...

      High School Janitor, with PSLF after ten years - go!

      Or are we back to square one, with you denying that such jobs even exist?

      Get a job.

    19. LMAO @ 5:16 PM These old fart boomers who paid 1k to go to law skule in 1962 are hilarious with get off my lawn bullshit. I can't wait until my parents generation drops dead. Fuck the baby boomers. Worst generation ever. They are lazy, stupid idiots that fucked up every aspect of American society.

    20. 1116 and 128 here. If this is a repost it's because it got caught in moderation.

      Personally, I just hate the glib "Join the Army!" that seems to come up in every thread. It's thrown out there as if there aren't serious problems with it. Hell, I think janitor in a public high school with a chance at PSLF is a far more well-reasoned retort than "Join the Army!"

      For the record, I mostly agree, I just hate the particular example I commented in regard to.

      Any job is better than no job, if that's the choice. I am not a lawyer or a JD, just an interested bystander. I am employed and have been my entire adult life and then some. I also have no problem servicing the modest debt I took for a non-humanities/LAS Bs. So take your ad hominem and your assumptions and eat 'em.

    21. @If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't - don't.

      If you "agree" that there are jobs available, and that "any job is better than no job," I don't see what the problem is. There are a lot of lazy assholes out there who think they are "too good" for manual labor, but surprisingly enough are not good enough to get hired doing anything else.

      What a conundrum, right?

    22. If society and employers wouldn't treat people who perform manual labor with disrespect, it would be more attractive to more people. We have been brainwashed from public school that you must go to college to succeed.

  11. Anyone who doesn't want to listen to us because he or she might think we're all jaded is one thing but those numbers above speak for themselves and those who don't comprehend that type of debt are really delusional.

  12. Finally I'm seeing some support for the position myself and allord had advocated on JDU for a number of years (before we both got banned).

    PSLF is total bullshit too, and those are going to start in 2 years. Especially for PSLF, those public jobs are very generous in terms of benefits, working hours and pay relative to work. There is no reason someone can't pay off their student loans if they buckle down.

    Most of the people screaming for forgiveness aren't cutting expenses. They're still living it up like princes and princesses, instead of living like a cost conscious prole. Why should I have to pay for that, when I don't have those expenses? I literally spent more on charity last year than I did on my own clothing and entertainment expenses. Prior to paying my student loans off, that money that I'm not spending on charity went to the loans. There is no excuse.

    If people think their loans are really that bad, they can leave for another country. I guarantee if some of these privileged morons saw what it's like in actual third world countries they'd change their tune.

    1. "I literally spent more on charity last year than I did on my own clothing and entertainment expenses."

      So in other words, you gave a dollar to charity last year? I guess you get your clothes out of a dumpster. As for the entertainment, I suppose it MUST be pretty inexpensive for you to play with your own turds all day.

    2. I'm proud of my charitable contributions, and my goal is to spend more in charity than I did on my student loans. That will likely take me just as long as paying off the student loans, but instead of money going to bankers and other parasites, this money goes to people that actually need it and does good.

      It says a lot about you that you would pick this to throw insults out on. I may dislike people for certain things, but I would never make charity the issue I insult people on.

      The people that want loan forgiveness are seriously deranged and obviously have an entitlement mentality and selfish attitudes. Why should anyone want to help you, when you're only concerned with getting "one up" on other people and don't even believe in charity?

    3. "So in other words, you gave a dollar to charity last year?" LMFAO, nice touch @5:08

  13. And gribble, you were banned from jdu for being abusive. You have significant daddy issues and you spend your time spouting off bullshit about how everyone should pay iff their loans because you did. Trucks have been driven through your bullshit yet you keep spouting off. Do the world a favor, stfu and go eat some babyshit you wackjob loser.

    1. Trucks have been driven through the proposition that people should pay back the money that they borrowed? Really? Somehow I doubt that very much.

    2. The lazy and entitled are always quick to throw out insults and declare themselves "winners."

      It's pretty funny. That's why most of these losers can't do anything and have to sit there screaming on the internet all day that their loans should be forgiven.

      Law is a put up or shut up field. If your arguments are really that good and you think you can "drive trucks through" other people's "bullshit" then there is nothing stopping you from making enough cash to pay back your loans.

      The problem with law has never been that there isn't a way to make a living if you're good. The problem has always been "Is it really worth the effort?" and "This is in no way enough money for what I'm doing."

      I'm willing to show sympathy to people who aren't good enough, own up to it, and then work to at least honestly pay back what they borrowed.

      But I have no sympathy for the morons that play victim while throwing out insults and looking for a free ride. You deserve your lot in life, and your obvious misery at your fate really shows through even online. Whining at me isn't going to change any of that, it might make you momentarily feel good about yourself, but trust me, far more people are laughing at your little tantrum, and you'll be right back to wallowing in your self pity shortly thereafter.

      Now go run back to admin and lick his boots some more. Maybe he'll pat you on the head. My life has been even better since I stopped posting at that loser collective.

    3. Gribble, you're a pathetic liar. Most law school debtors were not looking for a "free ride." They never saw most of the money they supposedly owe. It was siphoned off in fraudulent charges for tuition, supposedly to prepare them for useful employment.

    4. I will have to say JDU is a shell of its former self. Most of the talent got driven off that site never to return. I was banned there too. Good riddance.

  14. $300,000 of those loans are mine.

    Three. Hundred. Thousand. Dollars.

    Forgiveness in 23 years... tick tock tick tock

    ...and here I am, outside of the United States livin' the life of models and bottles.

    tick tock tick tock

    The numbers rise like constellations in the skies by the day

    tick tock tick tock

    Close to a million dollar$ will be owed by me when it all is forgiven...

    Tick Tock Tick Tock

    ...goes the clock

    The ironic thing is that I may actually do more schooling, too.

    You guys know that the student loan thing can not end well right? I am not the only person who will never be able to pay back my loans. I am not the only person who is totally apathetic and a little giddy about it either.


    1. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.


    Back on July 25, 2014, the Tampa Bay Times posted a piece from Susan Taylor Martin, entitled “Florida’s swollen ranks of lawyers scrap for piece of a shrinking legal pie.” Look at this opening:

    “Ask Jason Fraser how many jobs he applied for after graduating from law school last year and this is what he says:

    "Maybe 10 or 20 when it was someplace I wanted to work. Maybe 50 when I started getting desperate.''

    After searching from Ocala to Miami, Fraser finally landed a public defender's post in Pasco County in June. But his months of job-hunting raises another question, one that nags at many in the legal profession:

    Does Florida have too many lawyers?

    Since 2000, the number of licensed attorneys has swollen from 60,900 to 96,511. In the same period, five new law schools have opened, cranking out even more lawyers to join those bemoaning the diminished rewards of their chosen career.

    "Now it seems you work harder to make half of what you did in 1998,'' said Angela Wright, a Tampa criminal defense lawyer. "The economy is a reason but also the fact there are a whole lot more attorneys.''

    Almost half of the lawyers who responded to a Florida Bar survey last year cited "too many attorneys'' as the most serious problem facing the legal profession today. That exceeded "difficult economic times'' and "poor public perception,'' which many blamed in part on relentless TV advertising, such as that by big personal injury firms.

    The same survey found that 25 percent of lawyers in private practice had "adjusted'' their fees. Half said they didn't expect things to get better any time soon.”

    Did that information penetrate your brain? Nearly half of lawyers responding to a state bar survey pointed to “too many attorneys” as the biggest problem facing their “profession.” Simply put, there is a GLUT of legal representatives – and they are all chasing after the same clientele. For $ome rea$on, the law school pigs keep churning out too many graduates.

    Then again, there are 12 damn ABA-accredited cesspools located in the state – including a branch of TTTThoma$ M. Cooley Law Sewer. As you can see, not one of these schools has a great reputation. If you want to “serve others” or “fight for justice,” then you can volunteer your time to a charity or cause you believe in – without incurring ridiculous sums of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt.

  16. Here’s my story. I haven’t shared it outside my family. And I’m not doing it again.
    I landed Biglaw after graduating from Fordham. I spent 4 years as an associate. I couldn’t hack it and I haven’t practiced law since. Believe it or not some people actually enjoy this shit. They're firmly in the minority though. Anyway, when I graduated I owed about $120K in total loans. That's a shit ton of money. I made enough to pay most of it off in 5 years. But here’s the thing you guys don’t really mention. Big law offices tend to be in expensive cities. NYC is very expensive. A shitty studio apartment will run you about $2400 a month. That’s not counting food or transportation. Try eating healthy when you’re a biglaw associate. You’re eating a sandwich at your fucking desk while working during your lunch break. Did I mention that you’re working on the most boring shit imaginable? But it’s shit that rich people and companies pay good money for.

    Working 70 or 80 hour weeks means less sleep, less time to prepare your own food, less time to eat healthy, less time to exercise, less leisure time. You get the point. After 4 years at this high-paid shit job, I was 50 pounds overweight. The dark circles around my eyes gave me the appearance of a 40 year old by the time I was 27. My vision also went to shit before I turned 30.

    Basically, I spent 10 years just to get back financially to where I was before I went to law school. Now I work in an entirely different field for half of what I was making and I’m happy. I haven’t looked back. I get to come home after an 8 hour workday each day to my girlfriend and daughter. I can actually go to the gym. I can hit the racquetball courts. I can watch a movie or go to the park with my kid without worrying about some asshole partner calling me into the office. I can go to my yearly physical without my doctor telling me I have hypertension and an assortment of other problems. Let me just say this. If you’re going to a no-name law school like Pace or Touro with the idea that you’re going to get a job that allows you to pay back your student debt you’re just fooling yourself. Get that idea the fuck out of your fool head and move on to something better. Before you financially wreck yourself.

    1. If the debts weren't so high, perhaps you could see more lawyers representing poor and low income people and not just the big corporations.

  17. I laugh whenever I hear these idealistic and naive millennials who believe they have political capital to change the current bankruptcy laws. Hillary Clinton a.k.a the Wicked Witch of the East, has announced she will run to revive the Clinton monarchy. Who do you think controls Hillary? The same people that threw millions into Obunger's campaign to get elected. These people own the banking industry so you can kiss that pipedream (student loan forgiveness) goodbye.

    If you decided to roll the dice by taking out mountains of loans to play the lottery, the liability should follow you to your grave. When I graduated from law school, I didn't buy a new BMW, house, get married or have a kid. I didn't live uptown and I wasn't eating sushi, filet mignon and lobster tails for dinner. I sacrificed by living a spartan existence. I had 4 roommates and rode a bike to work. I ate a lot of cheap chinese food, slept on a futon and frugally accounted for every dollar I earned/spent. Kids today want to live large and thumb their noses at their loans. That's just not how life works kids. These loans will loom over you like the grim reaper. They will forge your life decisions, perhaps even leading to the end of your genetic lineage. I have no sympathy or empathy for these kids. They screwed themselves. No one put a gun to their head and told them to volunteer to get financially ass raped by the ABA cartel deans. They ignored all the advice these blogs and other articles put out YEARS ago. This site was started 6 years ago. The Wall Street Journal was questioning the value of a JD as early as 2007 and the NYTimes exposed the law school scam in January 2011. The Class of 2015 had the actual or constructive knowledge to avoid law school. Like lemmings, they took said "fuck it" and took the plunge. Well, guess what kiddies? FUCK YOU! I am calling my Congressman and Senator tomorrow and ask to speak to a congressional liaison to express my emphatic opposition to any student loan bailout courtesy of the taxpayers.

    1. "Kids today want to live large and thumb their noses at their loans."

      Exactly. Look at the guy who made the 1:28 pm comment, for example. No matter what kind of job you dangle in front of him, he will always find a million reasons to blow it off.

      In a non-dysfunctional economy, such a person would simply be allowed to starve until he became a LITTLE more "flexible" on that whole job issue.

    2. "Kids today," bwhahahahaha!!!

      Listen kids, when I graduated from my heavily taxpayer subsidized, third tier, state school, during economic boom times, I was simply too stupid to get a decent job. It is not that I did not work hard in law school, it is just that I am not that smart.

      I could not afford a car, let alone a BMW with my crap job, so I rode a bike to work. I had four roommates, by the names of Mom, Dad, brother and sister. I could not afford to eat out, but I ate out all the time.

      I saved every dime I was paid. To make sure it was safe I eased them all into my anus.

      Eventually, I paid off that 5,000 loan, but I never stopped sucking dick.

    3. 804, on the other hand, sucks dicks strictly for the calories. Everyone rides for free. It's probably the most "work" he'll ever do.

  18. 5:59 drop dead you loser boomer. Go figure out how to set the clock on your VCR and watch Fox News you neocon douche.

  19. Gotta love these self-righteous comments. "Damn kids! I walked uphill both ways in a snow storm without shoes to get to school and I survived on dumpster food for 10 years."

    Really? So school was just as expensive (accounting for inflation) for you as it was for the younger generation? I want to know why the hell everyone thinks that my generation buys BMWs when they graduate? What planet are you living on? You think we have the credit for that after student loans destroyed our debt to income ratios? You think we don't eat Ramen every night for 10 years because the jobs that existed for you after graduation don't exist for us? Do you think that it even matters? Because no matter how much Ramen I eat and no matter how long I ride my bike because I can't afford a car, I never seem to be able to get out of this nightmare.

    You seem so hell bent on wanting us to suffer for what you consider to be our "choices," as if we really had any. Well, jackass, we're suffering. I've given the banks my future. I have no goals because by the time I pay off these loans, I'll be in a convalescent home. I haven't bought clothes in about 10 years. I eat Ramen every night. I'm 32-years-old and have 2 roommates and yes, I penny-pinched in college. I have nothing to look forward to. They've taken my soul. I have nothing left. You win. I am miserable and will be for the rest of my life. Are you happy now? Do you feel better now?

    I sure wish I would have been born when you were because my sacrificing would have paid off. The game changed after you left, my friend. Stop calling my generation self-entitled and look in the mirror.

    1. @1057,

      "You seem so hell bent on wanting us to suffer for what you consider to be our 'choices,' as if we really had any."

      Well, let's see:

      You could have chosen not to go to law school, or to take out the student loans. You see, old-timers have this warped, exotic mindset: if something costs too much, they don't buy it. Madness!

      Second, you could choose to get a government job as a high school janitor, and have your loans forgiven after ten years. Or, if you don't believe that there are any janitor jobs, you could choose to join the Army. Or then again, you could choose to join the Marines.

      All choices.

      Or you could choose to do nothing, avoid real work, and spend decades complaining about it.

    2. That's not true, you have plenty left to look forward to.

      You've taken a hit. An ugly one. What are you gonna do about it? Find one thing you can do to better yourself tomorrow, whether it's bench pressing a few pounds or reading or writing a book. Then find another in two days.

      Don't give in to hopelessness or it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    3. BOOMERS: you bankrupted this country. You voted, and voted, and voted for the federal government to spend money, but you did not want to pay the taxes to support that spending.

      You run up an 18 trillion dollar tab, and now will squeal like stuck pigs if someone takes away the Social Security and Medicare you never paid for. How about none of you get one dime more than you paid into the system?

      You price-fixed higher education and drove the price up at a time when you will live in abject poverty without some form of education or training.

      We have no choices like the choice you had.

      1.3 trillion v. 18 trillion. Boomers had bankruptcy 1965-1998 on their federal student loans and they damn well used it.

      You owe us.

      And frankly, none of this B.S. about should happen matters one fig, because soon and very soon like so many countries on the globe the US will not be able to keep her financial sweetheart deal with Boomers.

      The first promise that will get broken is your welfare, Boomers.

      I absolutely cannot wait to see Boomers hanging themselves in the trees in the park, because we are Greece.

      Have a great retirement, assholes!

    4. 3:54 for president and dictator of America. This country is a mess because it's being run by a bunch of spoiled super-rich Boomers who never worked for anything in their lives. Your parents fought in WW2 and Korea and your biggest problem was finding a retirement place in Florida or Arizona. Now you fucked everything up for the past thirty years and you somehow hate the youth of America. Seriously, just die off now so we don't have to listen to your bullshit anymore. I am so sick of the vomit-inducing rhetoric from the worst generation in American history.

    5. @354,

      Wishful thinking, brah? I seriously doubt that any of those things will happen - but you can hold your breath and turn blue waiting for it, LOL.

      As I've said elsewhere, I never see people like you actually object to all that spending that you mentioned. You're just mad that they won't let you put YOUR snout in the trough so that an 18 trillion-dollar deficit can turn into, say, 30 trillion dollars.

      And wishing for people to hang themselves? Tch-tch, that's a little worse than not wanting them to receive a gubmint handout, yes? Besides being lazy, you appear to be consumed with hate - real hate, not just wanting 20-somethings to fuck off with the begging and go become janitors or something. Were you one of those people who celebrated on 9-11, too? It sure sounds like it.

  20. Although I find many Millennials to be whiners and entitled, post 5:59 is pretty clear evidence that Law is filled with psychopaths. That to me is the reason to avoid the profession . . . 5:59 is very similar to some of the type of people you have no choice but to associate with if you want to be a practicing lawyer. Some of his kind are the opposition, your bosses, even at times Judges. Law is populated by soulless individuals and 5:59 is but an example of one of them. So if you choose to enter this profession, just be aware of the type of people you will be dealing with and associating with and ask yourself if it is worth it. In the end, the worst thing that can happen to you is you become just like them. That means you will barely be a human individual and likely you will despised by the great majority of humanity, including your own family.

    1. @722,

      If you're that damn upset about it, why don't you exchange contact info with some of the bankruptcy trolls on this site, so that you can send some of your own money their way?

      Let the money POUR out of that giant heart of yours - like a mighty river.

      You seem to be all for charity, as long as somebody besides you is paying the bill.

    2. So glad I learned my lesson and I'm leaving law behind. I don't care what I do as long as I don't have to work with the assholes in this field.

    3. 7:12, what does recognizing a sociopath at 5:59 have to do with my having a bleeding heart? I simply think it important for any who want to practice law to understand that 5:59 is not unusual when it comes to the type of people you come in contact with in the practice of law. Legal practitioners are some of the most Narcissistic, soulless people you will find anywhere. 5:59 is but one example. There is a reason so many people hate lawyers don't you think? And why legal practice can be so depressing at times. Dealing with these types of people day in and day out can be soul crushing to some, especially to those without thick skins.

    4. What profession do you think you'll find where it's encouraged to filch on your debts and not put in serious work? If anything, the legal field is probably that field, and that's why most normal people don't like it.

    5. Normal people don't like asshole lawyers hounding law graduates about their debts. But normal people sure respect scambloggers who encourage young people not to go into debt for worthless law degrees.

      Good job, Nando. Ignore the trolls and get the word out.

  21. As student loan debt now exceeds credit card debt in the nation, and is becoming a systemic risk, why doesn’t the Federal Reserve lobby the administration and congress to impose some credible underwriting standards on graduate education? The rule for law schools should disqualify any law school student from receiving a federally guaranteed loan unless his or her LSAT score is a 160 or higher. At least those achieving such a score may have somewhat more than a 50% shot at actually practicing law and paying back their loans. Sure the TTT and Fourth tier deans would scream, but who bloody cares—its our taxpayer money!

    1. A sensible solution. Therefore, it stands no chance of ever occurring.

  22. (using the chords and sweet flow of Red Hot Chili Peppers 'Can't Stop')

    As a TTT grad, your image in the dictionary
    My life is less than ordinary
    I graduated top 1/4th o' the class from Barry
    The girl I was gonna marry
    She left me for a guy named Gary
    She said his balls are super hairy
    During law school, she cheated on me with our sup Jerry
    Now I live in a dump with Moe and Larry
    My debt is super fuckin' scary
    It's something I cannot carry
    I wanna move to Hun-gary
    My law school's a dingleberry
    Now my life's a cemetery

  23. During my legal studies, two of my classmates had complete mental breakdowns, and one committed suicide. Although I only graduated from law school about 15 years ago, I'd say over half of my classmates aren't even practicing law anymore. Many who still are, are working on their second or third divorce, and/or dealing with alcoholism and drug addiction, and barely making enough money to live off of. Yeah, I'd recommend it to most people.



    Back on January 8, 2011, the New York Times published the EPIC article “Is Law School a Losing Game?” – written by reporter David Segal. This piece appeared on page 1 of the Business section, of the Sunday edition. Check out this portion:

    “How do law schools depict a feast amid so much famine?

    “Enron-type accounting standards have become the norm,” says William Henderson of Indiana University, one of many exasperated law professors who are asking the American Bar Association to overhaul the way law schools assess themselves. “Every time I look at this data, I feel dirty.”

    IT is an open secret, Professor Henderson and others say, that schools finesse survey information in dozens of ways. And the survey’s guidelines, which are established not by U.S. News but by the American Bar Association, in conjunction with an organization called the National Association for Law Placement, all but invite trimming.

    A law grad, for instance, counts as “employed after nine months” even if he or she has a job that doesn’t require a law degree. Waiting tables at Applebee’s? You’re employed. Stocking aisles at Home Depot? You’re working, too.

    Number-fudging games are endemic, professors and deans say, because the fortunes of law schools rise and fall on rankings, with reputations and huge sums of money hanging in the balance. You may think of law schools as training grounds for new lawyers, but that is just part of it.

    They are also cash cows.

    Tuition at even mediocre law schools can cost up to $43,000 a year. Those huge lecture-hall classes — remember “The Paper Chase”? — keep teaching costs down. There are no labs or expensive equipment to maintain. So much money flows into law schools that law professors are among the highest paid in academia, and law schools that are part of universities often subsidize the money-losing fields of higher education.

    “If you’re a law school and you add 25 kids to your class, that’s a million dollars, and you don’t even have to hire another teacher,” says Allen Tanenbaum, a lawyer in Atlanta who led the American Bar Association’s commission on the impact of the economic crisis on the profession and legal needs. “That additional income goes straight to the bottom line.”

    Look at the date again, if you are getting ready to receive your JD. You will notice that this came out more than 18 months BEFORE you started law school. In sum, you have no excuses for choosing to enroll in an ABA-accredited diploma mill. If you cannot find decent employment, much of that is due to your lack of research and due diligence on this financial decision. Yes, the law school pigs lie about the job outlook – but this was common knowledge at least 4-5 years ago.

  25. These kids grew up thinking they could emulate Elle Woods, a character on Suits or Boston Legal. They eschewed the sincere advice of seasoned lawyers and decided to recklessly gamble taxpayer largesse in order to fund a 3 year vacation from reality. FUCK THESE KIDS. Life is not an episode of How to Get Away with Murder. Life is about living up to your responsibilities, not chasing some iron pyrite dream. PT Barnum remarked that a sucker is born every minute. In the case of millennials, it would appear a generation of suckers was born between 1983 and 1998. Sure they will cry about how they were hoodwinked by the evil law school deans. Again, FUCK THEM. If they were really smart, these kids would have appreciated the risks of taking out massive non-dischargeable loans. Do these kids even know what non-dischargeable means? It means it will follow you like a shadow until you either pay up or die. I refuse to hire any law grad that attended school after 2010 unless he/she went to HYS or is connected to a family that has access to portable business. You grew up poor or in a middle class family and wanted to save the whales and preserve the environment? Go join UNICEF instead. You want to help the poor, volunteer at your local soup kitchen. Don't come crying about the economy or no jobs left situation. There are jobs everywhere. Roll up your fucking sleeves and tighten those goddamn bootstraps and learn the meaning of sacrifice. Stop dicking around waiting for handouts and get a fucking job to pay your bills.

    1. You are a pathetic excuse of a human being. I cannot wait until selfish assholes like you die. Fuck off.

    2. We went to law school by busting our asses through undergrad and working as well. Shocked an old worthless sociopathic fart like you can use a computer.

    3. You're a liar. And you'd better not talk about fucking any kids. I'll call the cops myself if you ever drop your anonymity, even for a second. Why don't you just go fuck yourself instead?

      Most of the current crop of debt slaves did NOT ignore the sincere advice of seasoned lawyers. They've never met any lawyers. They were lied to by scam deans and scam professors, whom they considered authorities on the legal profession.

      I know you get a boner when you talk about non-dischargeable debt, but there shouldn't be any debt. The scam schools should be shut down. And in any case, debts incurred by fraud are not valid and cannot be enforced. Shove that up your tight ass, Mr.Seasoned Lawyer.

    4. You tell them Boomer! Your generation worked hard to create this nightmare and by God there is no reason you should have to hear these kids complain about it!

      And by the way, since you are such a hard worker - go get the business hour damn self. Don't rely on some silver spoon kid to do it for you.

    5. @100 am,

      Oh, grow up. You aren't fooling anybody - the only person who is fucking your kids is YOU.

    6. April 14, 2015 at 3:25 PM here again.

      In response to April 15, 2015 at 1:00AM, I have been asked by dozens of college students what I thought about them going to law school. Before giving my opinion, I would ask to see a college transcript and converse with the student. I would ask why they wanted to become a lawyer. This was my observation:

      Most kids took easy A liberal arts courses in college. The challenge was lacking and I knew these kids purposely avoided any difficult courses to pad their GPA. I saw them as unfit to practice law as there is no avoiding a trial or settlement talks with a monolithic adversary.

      Secondly, students would tell me they wanted to go to law school to save the world. They couldn't tie their own shoelaces or wipe their own ass without help and yet they thought they could save the world. The only world these kids were qualified to save was Super Mario's World on a Nintendo game system.

      Despite my advice to avoid law school, most of these kids decided to spit in my face and disregard my wisdom. This is why I don't even talk to college students anymore as it is a waste of my time. So the kids would go to law school to show me up but in reality they were lowering their trousers and bending over so that their law school dean overlords could bugger them without lubrication. The joke was on them, not on me.

      In this world you should trust no one. You were a fucking idiot to trust law school deans and professors. These academics escaped the real world because they eschewed hard work and wanted to be in an environment where they could collect a fat paycheck, work minimal hours and reign like a bully overlord over pathetic college grads who thought they were geniuses because they got an A in "The Art of Philosophy" in a non-curved course packed with 80 other morons.

      Remember, the courts have labelled you sophisticated consumers. You should have known better than to trust the massaged employment numbers offered by the law schools. Did you really think coming out of Cooley you were going to land a job at Cravath? Did you think a Touro JD would get you into the DOJ honors program? Did you think a Carbozo JD would land you a SCOTUS clerkship? You fucking kids are so naive that I could probably sell you naming rights to the Brooklyn Bridge. To you I say SUFFER because you have earned to wear the CHAINS OF DEBT FOR THE REST OF YOUR GODDAMN NATURAL LIVES!

    7. You say "if they were really smart", but what you fail to see is that admission standards have been dropping for years now. The law schools are marketing themselves towards, and accepting, less-intelligent applicants. So they aren't "smart". The smart kids aren't taking the LSAT or enrolling in law school. The numbers are shrinking, from enrollment, to LSAT takers, to bar takers, because my generation is now heeding the warning and avoiding law school. So it is unfair to make a broad sweeping generalization about our generation being "idiots"

      But I wouldn't expect much else from a selfish, entitled Boomer slob such as yourself.

  26. Ah yes, the glamor of the Academy

    There's no "higher education" anymore anywhere; it's all about keeping the academics in jobs that protect them from the real world.
    And the students? Well, they're the federal loan conduits, so they play an important role....

    1. Yale has an all-online physician's assistant degree program that they are having trouble getting accredited. Prestige is a joke. Greed and easy money is where it is at.

  27. Debts incurred in fraudulent transactions are not enforceable. The vast majority of law school debt was incurred by fraud. It's our job to convince everyone in America that most law schools are fraudulent operations. Then the people who sneer "Get a Job!!" and "Pay Your Debts!!" will be about as popular as someone who screams "That's My Slave!! I paid for that slave!!" and the FBI busts them for owning a slave. End of story, debt trolls.

    1. @119,

      I know you must think that you've been "enslaved," but seriously, brah - why WON'T you get a job? Do you just not believe in "work"?

      No, you just think that everybody else should work to financially support your gigantic ass. If anyone here is the financial equivalent of a "slave owner," it's you, you lazy-ass fuckstick.

    2. What is the fraudulent transaction? You received student loan money to attend a law school. Did you not attend a law school? What was it then? A clown college masquerading as a law school?

      While we may in general agree the law schools outside of HYS (and even them to an extent) do not prepare students to practice law, they only hold themselves out as accredited schools that allow you to take the bar exam, and you were allowed to do that.

      Fraud is not so easy to allege and prove. The courts are not going to accept your argument that it's fraud.

      I'm 31 years old. My job isn't to get you out of debt. My job was to get myself out of debt and then to provide for myself. I did that and continue to do so.

      If you want me to campaign for your loan forgiveness because it's "fraud" then you need to demand I get a refund for what I paid, about $150k+interest, and that's not to mention the obscene taxes I had to pay to earn that money in the first place.

      Something tells me however you are not so equitable in demanding I get a refund for suffering fraud. But hey, I'll give you a chance to make yourself at least not look like a blithering idiot.

      What should happen to those of us that worked our asses off and paid our debts?

    3. from

      Fraud is generally defined in the law as an intentional misrepresentation of material existing fact made by one person to another with knowledge of its falsity and for the purpose of inducing the other person to act, and upon which the other person relies with resulting injury or damage. Fraud may also be made by an omission or purposeful failure to state material facts, which nondisclosure makes other statements misleading.

      I believe that every law school matriculant would want to know:
      1. the real percentage of a law school class who ever get a real job working as a real lawyer;
      2. the real salary distributions of those classified in 1) above rather than obfuscated number that hides the bimodal distribution;
      3. the percentage of those classified in 1) above who retain such a job 2, 5, 10, etc. years after graduation and their salaries at such subsequent time points.

      Yet, these and other data are not reported. Rather, the industry conveniently hides the facts that lawyer jobs are about as stable as an elephant in quicksand and that with the passage of time a law school graduating class will find the "profession" a veritable tournament with an ever increasing number falling out to unemployment or underemployment.

  28. Here’s a personal touch for you morons who comprise the JD Class of 2015.

    Back on April 10, 2012, the Atlantic published an excellent article entitled “The Wrong People Have Stopped Applying to Law School.” The reporter was Jordan Weissmann. Take a moment to read this opening:

    “Among the many unfortunate developments in higher education over the past decade, one of the most talked about has been the law school bubble. In the heat of the recession, a record number of students decided that it would be a good idea to dive six-figures into debt for a shot at a legal career. Many were lured with utterly misleading job placement stats, as well as a stubborn misperception that law was still a safe career choice, that a J.D. even guaranteed a living wage. Once they graduated, many realized otherwise.

    Last month, the Law School Admissions Council (a.k.a., LSAC) published data indicating that the bubble finally seemed to have popped -- a merciful development, as I put it at the time. The number of LSAT tests administered has plummeted over the past two years, and fewer students are accepting admission. This is a happy turn of events. The fewer grads being funneled into an super-saturated industry, the better. (Full disclosure: I used to work for a law firm.)

    Yesterday, LSAC released a new bit of evidence* that law school has finally lost its luster. Applicants are down more than 15 percent for the year. But there's one problem: The wrong students have stopped applying.

    Take a look at the chart below, which shows the number of applications from prospective students in each LSAT range for 2012. Here's the take away: The number of students applying who probably have no business going to law school has dropped the least. The number of students applying who probably should be going to law school has dropped the most.”

    The chart shows that those who scored 170-174 on the LSAT have decided not to apply to law school at a MUCH higher clip than the dolts and idiots, i.e. you, who posted garbage results on the test. Enjoy your lifetime of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt, dumbass!

    All you had to do was do some basic research, look at several sources, and honestly ask yourself why you want to be a lawyer. But you failed to do that, waterhead. By the way, when I hear kids say they want to become an attorney so they can “help the underserved” or “fight for justice,” I just shake my head and laugh. Those mental midgets are lying to themselves and to everyone else. People with an IQ above room temperature don’t take out $147,238.52 in NON-DISCHARGEABLE loans, in order to help others or “level the playing field.” If you want to serve, then go dish out food to bums in a soup kitchen on weekends. You don't need to financially ruin yourself, genius.

  29. You are doing God's work, Nando. I was eating at a restaurant last night, and my waiter was an aspiring law school applicant. I asked him if he would get any scholarships. He said that he was not that smart and would be getting all loans. He was going to go to Syracuse Law School. I asked him why. He told me because of the name recognition, true statement. I asked him if he knew what ABA employment disclosures were. He said he did not. He also told me he wanted to work in government. Tuition alone at Syracuse is around $41K. So, I told him your total cost of attendance will probably be around 70K a year. You will be spending over $200K, to have a 50% chance of maybe making 50K. I told him to think hard about it.

    You should write a book.

  30. I've lost all patience with the defenders of the student loan system. It's always the same progression of poorly reasoned arguments with them:
    1. We CAN'T limit student loans, because that would limit access to school to the rich.
    2. Education is expensive because it's worth it.
    3. I know it didn't work out for YOU, but I know this other guy....

    Then, when it blows up in your face...
    1. YOU took out those loans, it is YOUR responsibility!
    2. Education is about personal growth, not employment!
    3. You're too LAZY and STUPID and ENTITLED to be successful in this world, all 50% of you law grads who couldn't get real jobs!

    No matter that Public money is being wasted on these worthless credentials, and that the debt serfs will be too crippled economically to engage in entrepreneurship, buy houses, pay taxes, etc...

    I've managed to pay 50% of my student loan balance down, working in Non-law. I don't want anyone to get loan forgiveness. I DO want the spigot turned off. Nothing will change until the sweet Federal nectar is turned off.

    1. An ex-student from RWUMay 15, 2015 at 1:37 PM

      @5:28PM- Hey there, I know it's been almost a full month since you posted that comment, but I just wanted to say...
      A-FUCKING-MEN! Especially to the respective #2 reasons on both short lists. No, education is expensive because it's absurdly overpriced, and there's no reason why the prices shouldn't be properly adjusted to go back DOWN! And as for "personal growth", why the hell should anyone be forced to take out loans worth a king's ransom if there's no guarantee of a decent job afterwards?

      There is literally NO good reason to go to college these days, because of the Higher Education Scam. What reason could there be? Certainly not LEARNING (indeed, why pay that much when you can just learn all this stuff on your own for free?), and certainly neither for EMPLOYMENT (because there are no decent jobs to be had!).

      I'd say more here, but I gotta run... still, I will say this: Those who helped ruin the lives of these generations of debt slaves (particularly the Evil Baby Boomers) SHOULD and WILL get theirs, sooner or later...

      (And yes, I totally agree: Shut off the student loan spigot, watch it all burst!)

  31. So, all this makes sense.

    Where the HELL ARE THE LEADERS, politically???

    1. The politicians? They are bought and paid for. It creates a sort of feedback loop.

  32. It's been in the mainstream as far back as 2007, albeit certainly not everyplace. Since the burgeoning of the Scamblog Movement, however, knowledge about the existence of the Scam has been easy to find for anyone without blinders on. It was the Great One himself who warned the kids in none other than the Wall Street Journal on the downward slide of the legal industry, a slide which has turned into its horrific end times:

  33. Blessed Be The Scambloggers, for they hath indeed done The Lord's Work in exposing the evils of The Law School Scam!


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