Friday, July 10, 2015

Law School Critics Wipe Their Asses With Bloomberg’s List of Ten Most Underrated Law Schools

Thorough Wipe Job: On July 1, 2015, Joe Patrice posted an ATL entry labeled “Bloomberg’s The 10 Most Underrated Law Schools Is A Terribly Stupid List.”  Look at this opening:

“There are a lot of factors that can make for an underrated movie. Perhaps the acting transcends a woefully subpar script. Or maybe the dialogue hangs in your memory long after the plot itself falls forgotten. Or maybe you’ve found a symbolic meaning to Deuce Bigalow that no one considered before. But there’s one feature that all underrated movies share: 

They’re actually bad.

There may be a redeeming quality or two, but fundamentally, the film never caught fire for a reason and your effort to resuscitate some personal favorite to respectability to save your own reputation with your friends is just pathetic. Stop trying to make Gigli happen. It’s not going to happen. 

This goes double for Bloomberg Business’s sad “The 10 Most Underrated Law Schools” post. Just try to get through this paragraph with a straight face: 

There is a strong chance you have never heard of the Norman Adrian Wiggins School of Law at Campbell University. The Raleigh, N.C., school is not prestigious enough to be ranked among U.S. News and World Report’s best law schools, and it enrolls only about 400 students at a time. Yet a new law school ranking suggests that most of us are probably underestimating Campbell. 

Nope. We’re not. According to Law School Transparency, Campbell earned an employment score of 57.8 percent and an underemployment score of 20.8 percent. This makes it superior to, say, Florida Coastal, but that’s not exactly high praise.” [Emphasis mine]

Considering that a litter box full of moist cat turds is superior to Florida Coa$TTTTal Sewer of Law, that is not high praise. When I profiled the stench pit known as the Norman Adrian Wiggins Sewer of Law, many people thought that I was joking. Believe it or not, it’s an actual law school – with ABA accreditation and everything, including presumably a fax machine!

The Piece in Question: On June 30, 2015, BloombergBusiness published a piece, from the usually reliable Natalie Kitroeff, which was entitled “The 10 Most Underrated Law Schools.” Apparently, the publication must also provide articles that are pro-law school pig. Look at the rubbish below:

“Alfred Brophy, a law professor at the University of North Carolina, published a paper online on Sunday that grades law schools on just three measures of success. Brophy’s [simpleminded] accounting looks at students’ employment outcomes, their median scores on the Law School Admission Test, and the number of citations that a school’s law review receives. By distilling the rankings down to these metrics, Brophy says he can get at the essence of a law school’s worth: how well it prepares its students for the profession they have chosen. 

“What this ranking does is reveal how careful students need to be, especially in looking at employment outcomes,” says Brophy. The job market is so incredibly competitive coming out of law school, you want to make sure you are going to the best school and getting the best value for your money.” [Emphasis mine]

Attending a third tier commode or fourth tier trash can WILL NOT benefit the vast majority of students, either personally or professionally. That is an undisputed fact! Incurring an additional $120K+ in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt in the process will not increase your career options. It will, however, significantly improve your chances of becoming a broke bastard who struggles to pay his bills and provide for himself or support a family.

Deliberately Comical Coverage: On July 2, 2015, the Law School Truth Center posted an entry labeled “Underrated Law Schools: As Sexy as a Nissan Sentry.” Unlike the Kitroeff piece, it was intentionally funny. Check out the following excerpt:

“You'll have to go to the link to see the full list, but let me just say that any law school ranking that includes Albany is a good ranking in my book. 

What’s more, Brophy found that in the middle of the pool—schools ranked from 15 to 150 on his list—there wasn’t very much variation in performance.

“The difference between a Toyota Corolla and a Nissan Sentra isn’t that great. That’s the analogy I would make,” says Brophy.”

You too can wipe your ass with a law degree from any of the 10 toilets mentioned in the Brophy or Bloomberg piece. After earning a JD from those in$TTTiTTTuTTTion$, that’s all it will be good for, mental midget.

Conclusion: If you apply to, or enroll in, ANY of the 10 trash pits listed as “underrated,” then you are a moron. In fact, if you even consider Campbell ‘University,’ Drexel, University of Montana, Mercer University, University of South Dakota, Albany Law Sewer, University of Idaho, Louisiana State University, Northern Illinois University, or Villanova, then you are making a statement as to how DESPERATE you are to be called a lawyer. You are the type of sucker who would go out with an ugly butter cow, for the sake of dating someone and not being alone. Grow a brain stem, you dupe.


  1. Speaking of villanova:

    1. That is a terrifically amusing video. Yet even a near worthless Villanova MBA is probably more versatile than a totally worthless Villanova law degree... Heaven help us.

    2. "A girl who choses black nail polish colour as her favourite, usually, has strong and determined personality, she knows what she wants, she sets goals and achieves them, she loves the power and is not afraid of obstacles."

  2. An ex-student from RWUJuly 10, 2015 at 9:37 AM

    I don't know if anyone else has said it already, but let me first say this: Congrats on hitting the 4 MILLION page view mark, Nando!

    That being said, I also just wanted to say how much I enjoy reading the law school scamblogs and how I appreciate what you guys are doing to save potential victims and bring down the scammers. I don't have a scamblog of my own running (yet) and I never want to law school (let alone seriously considered it), but I've also been doing my part to warn people against the great law school scam.

    1. Sounds like you've taken the next step and warned other people with information you find on sites like this. I did the same at a recent family event. Three relatives who had never heard the words "law school scam" are now aware of some of the issues, especially the crushing debts incurred by many law students.

    2. An ex-student from RWUJuly 11, 2015 at 10:51 AM

      Hi there!

      First of all, I ment to say "I never WENT to law school" (not "want") in my previous post, so sorry for the typo there.

      Anyway, yes, I've already "taken the next step and warned other people" for the past year or so (I first discovered Nando's blog and all the other scam blogs back in the start of 2014), and I've been letting other people know ever since. I can't think of anyone I've managed to dissuade from going to law school, but then again, that hard more to due with their stubbornness and unwillingness to listen to reason and see the truth.

      I actually need to run now, but later when I get back, I'll be sure to share my tales of hardheaded lemmings later...

    3. I managed to talk someone else out of law school. A friend's daughter is picking her college major + we talked about law school over coffee. I think what struck her most was me telling her that if she could find an attorney job that allowed for a sane work/life balance, she would not make much money, certainly not enough to justify the cost of law school. (As it is she will have undergraduate debt after college.)

    4. An ex-student from RWUJuly 12, 2015 at 11:19 AM

      Good for you on being able to dissuade anyone from going to law school. Like I said, I've had to deal with some real hard-headed people who JUST WON'T LISTEN OR SEE REASON. I'll post my stories down below in new comments...

  3. It might be a good list if the legal profession were an actual profession and not just a scam. As is you'd have to be insane to go to a lower-ranked school, no matter how underrated it might be.

    1. You're right, and the lower-ranked schools have basically given up on defending themselves. They don't even bother to troll here any more. Anyone notice how the lies and hatred have disappeared the last few months?

  4. Nando, please profile Barry Law School. The CFO was caught embezzling tuition dollars and racked up a $50K bill at Hooters, courtesy of lemmings signing promissory notes to attend this dump and enable administrators to live lush and perverse lives.

    1. 50K? In one night? That seems impossible. Spread over a number of years . . . maybe.

  5. Homeboy forgot to flush. (with that wad of cash, about 180 law schools would take him).

  6. Anyone who goes to a school named after Norman Adrian wiggins (who in the hell is that???) gets what he deserves.

  7. First, let me echo 9:37: Congratulations on hitting the 4 million mark !!!

    Second, how is it practically or theoretically possible for Drexel to be underrated? Didn't they only have only two graduates secure a federal clerkship? And only four graduates secure jobs with law firms of more than 250 employees? Didn't they have to call a do over on their naming rights? Don't they "compete" with six local schools -- Penn, Temple, Villanova, Rutgers-Camden, Widener-Delaware -- as well as the two Penn State campuses and HYS? I guess what I am saying/asking is, if you have or deserve no rating, how is it possible to be underrated?

    1. Ah, but they have a "scholarly" faculty who get to teach three classes a year and post frequently on law school blogs. That makes them superstars. Wouldn't you be willing to borrow $200,000 to meet a superstar?

  8. "It will, however, significantly improve your chances of becoming a broke bastard who struggles to pay his bills and provide for himself or support a family."

    You forgot about disappointing your parents and shaming the legacy of your ancestors... which is what will happen when you have 100k in high interest, non-dischargeable debt and no job. Law school is a black hole for middle class survival and modest inheritances. My family worked hard for generations, and I am ashamed of myself for falling for the law school scam. That isn't rhetoric, either. I am truly ashamed of myself.

  9. The author of the Bloomberg article that is the subject of this post is the same author of the Bloomberg article that was the basis of your last post - calling for law schools to be shut down.

    Author-ette. Yet to hit her 28th birthday. Law School Truth Center already reamed her a llllooooonnnngggg time ago for her know-absolutely-nothing approach to continually espousing on law schools.


  10. Barry (University) Law School, what a joke. Used to be Barry College, an all-female school no large than my junior high. University of Miami to the South, St. Thomas to the West, and Nova Southeastern to the North. And not even a state-level school like Florida State or University of Florida.

    1. I've got no sympathy for law school scammers, and Florida law school scammers are the absolute worst.

      But Barry "University" did have enough sense to locate its law school in Orlando rather than Miami. The undergraduate campus is in Miami as you indicated.

  11. Here is another comical portion of Kitroeff’s Bloomberg piece:

    “While it’s worth checking out Brophy’s entire list, you can find below the 10 schools that are most underrated. These schools jumped the most in Brophy’s rankings, compared to their spot in the U.S. News rankings.

    1. Campbell University
    Rank based on median LSAT and employment outcomes: 112
    U.S. News rank: unranked

    2. Drexel University (Kline)
    Rank based on LSAT and employment: 87
    U.S. News rank: 127

    3. University of Montana
    Rank based on LSAT and employment: 73
    U.S. News rank: 113

    4. Mercer University (George)
    Rank based on LSAT and employment: 81
    U.S. News rank: 118

    5. University of South Dakota
    Rank based on LSAT and employment: 111
    U.S. News rank: 145

    6. Albany Law School
    Rank based on LSAT and employment: 108
    U.S. News rank: 138

    7. University of Idaho
    Rank based on LSAT and employment: 98
    U.S. News rank: 127

    8. Louisiana State University (Hebert)
    Rank based on LSAT and employment: 65
    U.S. News rank: 94

    9. Northern Illinois University
    Rank based on LSAT and employment: 125
    U.S. News rank: unranked

    10. Villanova University
    Rank based on LSAT and employment: 61
    U.S. News rank: 87

    Looking at the number of law review citations is one way of getting at a school’s prestige, which may or may not matter to a person considering three years of law school. The other two measures are pretty undeniably important markers of a school’s worth.”

    1. Who gives a flying fuck about the number of citations in law reviews? Nobody, but nobody, reads law reviews. I edited one of the most prestigious law reviews, yet even I didn't read the fucking thing.

      Drexel (better spelling: Dreck-sel) is not "underrated" just because some scamster named Brophy thinks that it should rank 87th rather than 127th. Even if the correct rank were 17th, Drexel would not be worth attending. Arguments about Drexel's precise place among the toilets are pointless.

    2. Great point there, that Brophy is a scammer himself! Of course he's going to claim that some law schools are underrated.

      In fact, nearly all law schools are overrated, even some of the Top 13. And every school below the Top 13 is overrated, simply because it's not worth attending at all. Anyone who went to a school outside the Top 13 is an idiot and has zero credibility.

      And don't forget that North Carolina, the "elite" school where Brophy gets paid, is light-years away from being a decent investment.

    3. I say that all law schools are overrated. Yale is no longer a guarantee of employment, if it ever was.

  12. For the record, law firms and non-law employers care about the name brand of an applicant's alma mater. It's a quick way to determine whether a job seeker is intelligent or average, i.e. it provides a nice filter. If you attend a trash heap named Albany Law Sewer, hiring managers and HR department heads can figure out that you are not that smart.

    Back on August 14, 2014, Forbes published contributor Ben Taylor’s article, “Why Law School Rankings Matter More Than Any Other Education Rankings.” After stating that, in general, a college’s or graduate/professional school’s ranking does not guarantee better job prospects or higher salaries, he notes that law school is the exception to the rule:

    "Law School Rankings

    And so we finally arrive at law school, where as it turns out, rankings couldn’t be more important. For starters, consider that the top 14 schools in the nation have remained unchanged for 25 years—without a single new contender since US News started publishing law school rankings in 1989. Yes, the exact order among these 14 has changed a bit from year to year, but the top 14 (often abbreviated as the T14), has maintained its elite, unassailable status.

    The T14’s dominance has created a year-after-year, self-fulfilling prophecy, where students covet these top institutions, the best professors desire to teach at these institutions, and law firms choose to hire from these institutions, essentially ensuring that the same group will remain the T14 for years to come. Employers admit that JDs from the T14 will be welcomed at law firms across the nation, while graduates of even the next best schools (like UCLA or Texas, perennially ranked between 15-20) will be much better off sticking to local markets.

    Note how the top 14 schools claim the best employment rates in the nation[.]

    The discrepancy is even more obvious if you look at employment at the largest, most desirable firms[.]

    The T14 phenomenon has been around for decades, but recent trends in the legal market have exacerbated the situation. With an over-saturated pool of lawyers and law firms receiving an unprecedented number of applications, employers can be extremely picky, choosing only candidates guaranteed to be stellar. T14 graduates quickly snap up spots at the best employers, leaving lower-ranked law school graduates the smaller-firm crumbs.

    Conclusion: rankings matter tremendously—a spot in a top 14 school is essential"

    Get the point, waterhead?!?! If you cannot comprehend this basic data – or you feel that it does not apply to you, because even though are attending a TTT you are still somehow exceptional – then you do not have the mental capacity to choose from the adult menu at IHOP, let alone represent people in legal matters. You deserve your fate. I only cringe when I think of your future mate or potential clients. Again, incurring an additional $120K+ in NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt for a chance at facing the supposed 81st or 98th "best" JD employment prospects in the country is beyond foolish and pathetic. Go back to your coloring books, lemming.

    1. Graduates of the so-called top 14 are by no means "guaranteed to be stellar". For that matter, nor are graduates from Harvard and Yale.

    2. Actually, if you rank by employment outcomes, there really are 14 schools that are better than all the others. Of course, graduates of schools 15-17 will deny that fact.

      The point is not that there are no top law schools. The real point is that the top law schools create too much debt for their students, while leaving many of them with dismal long-term career prospects. And the lower schools are even worse.

    3. The Ritalin/Adderall/Concerta ADD/ADHD generation is proving to be a boom for the Law School industry. These amphetamine derived drugs produce a temporary sense of "we can do anything" euphoria and invincibility in a segment of the population that is characterized by their poor decision making, lack of empathy, irritability, promiscuity, etc. Next time you come across these law school candidates, ask yourself just how many of them are under the effects of these dopamine enhancing drugs.

    4. Brilliant point. I remember students cranking out 14 hour days in the law library buzzed in Adderall. To read boring case after boring case, you have to be high.

  13. Bloomberg Businessweek is getting dumber and dumber. I had to unsubscribe from its facebook newsfeed when it started posting BuzzFeed headlines on a Chipotle opening up in London. I also never renewed my subscription even though it cost me 35 cents per issue.

  14. There's no such thing as underrated in law school. You're either a grad of one of the few elite schools or a bum in the eyes of biglaw hiring managers. There's always exceptions of course but this applies to the 95% of students in bottom feeder law schools.

    1. I was looking at the Michigan employment stats over on LST the other day, and they are having some serious problems. They are way behind Cornell at this point. I'd say that, based on employment outcomes, Cornell is now a much better school that Michigan. And if Michigan has more prestige, then prestige is meaningless.

  15. An ex-student from RWUJuly 12, 2015 at 11:37 AM

    Well, I promised to share my stories with the few people who I knew were considering law school and wouldn't even LOOK at all the evidence which I gave them (such as all the scamblogs and even the official news articles about what a bad idea law school has come). So, without further ado, let me tell you about my 2 friends from my undergrad days who have only recently decided to take the plunge into law school...

    Friend #1 (let's call him "Wally") is about 1-2 years older than me, and he just took the LSAT to get a score of... 145, I think? "Just above average!" he gloated to me. And so he's headed off to our "esteemed" (har har) alma mater of RWU in Rhode Island, and his other choice was UMass. If he's really that hard-headed, he'll be about 35 years old, give or take, by the time he finishes law school. I don't blame him for not wanting to hold a sign outside for a small business all the time, but COME ON! I warned him about law school, I warned him about the gruesome law job market and the horrible JD stain on one's resume, and I linked him to all these blogs and professional articles from reputable news sources, but he just refused to listen. He was a political science major, and he wants to be a great lawyer and politician like so many others in the past (never mind the fact that most of them came from wealthy and connected families, as I pointed out!). Still, I suppose those historical figures would make a better inspiration than, say, friggin' ELLE WOODS, because at least they actually existed and she is just a fictional character. Anyway, Wally is due to start law school at RWU next month.

    Friend #2 (let's call him "Jimmy") already finished his first year of law school earlier this year; he attends DePaul over in Chicago. Just like with my other friend, I warned him about the ugly realities of law these days, I linked him to whatever decent blogs and articles I could find, but he didn't listen. Last I checked, he didn't even find out his first-year grades yet, and he was in no rush to find out (even though I passed along the anecdotal scamblogger wisdom of dropping out after your first year if you're not in the top 10% of your class). Oh well... Still, I won't fret for him TOO much; after all, he's fluent in French because he lived in France for a while during his youth. So the way I see it, if he ever wanted to indulge in the "flee the country" fantasy which so many modern-debt slaves fantasize about because his own debt gets unbearable, he just might get lucky there, since French is spoken in at least one country on every inhabited continent. But if he's really that smart, let him figure that part out on his own.

    I really don't want to see other friend of mine suffer, and I gave it my best shot in both cases, but in the end, they're responsible for their own lives...

    (Next time I'll get to my one or two cousins who are also seriously considering law.)

    1. Let's see, in Asia...would your French-speaking friend prefer Lebanon or Vietnam?

    2. This post highlights the real problem: everyone's a Special Snowflake, so it's not going to happen to them because, well, they're special. I hope your friends do well, but it's clear you've done well by them. It's too bad they didn't listen.
      But saw another post that law school applications are actually up, if ever so slightly. I fear that this scam is so deeply entrenched it will never go away.

    3. Wally is quite wrong if he thinks that 145 is above average (assuming here that by "average" he means median—does he know anything about measures of central tendency?). The median LSAT score is a hair above 151. His 145 is at the 26th percentile.

      I am fluent in French and other languages, yet I had a hell of a time finding work despite superior results at an élite law school. And don't think that French will make emigration possible. English too is spoken on every inhabited continent, yet England and Australia don't welcome every dipshit lemming from DePaul.

    4. An ex-student from RWUJuly 13, 2015 at 11:54 AM

      As Anonymous at 4:51 pointed out (which I forgot to articulate the first time around), YES, it's also being a Special Snowflake, with the "it won't happen to ME!" delusion.

      Also, Old Guy, I admit that I could be wrong; I forget exactly what Wally said his LSAT score was, but he said that it was a few points above average. (Mind you, I don't know that much about law and law school as you guys, mainly because I never went to law school and therefore never experienced the same things as you did.) And as for the whole thing with foreign languages with French... eh, I wondered if knowing some other widely-spoken language like Spanish or French could help you "write your own ticket" of sorts to go to other countries, but maybe not? (And maybe in another comment or post, I'll go into a bit more of why the "flee the country" option isn't all it's cracked up to be, but you're right, Old Guy; do you really think all these other countries around the world want our heavily-indebted dupes that badly?)

      Oh, and let me just say, Old Guy, that's an honor to "meet" you too; I started getting into the scamblog movement just as you were making your presence known, and I love your comments and guest posts.

      ...And ironically, just now, even as I'm typing this in a public location, I just made a new friend and managed to talk him out of law school. Score one for me!

    5. Good for you, Ex-RWU! To the law-school scamsters, every lemming counts. When someone turns Indiana Tech down, for example, there goes more than 3% of the class. Deterring even one prospective student is a real contribution to the anti-scam movement.

      I used to suppose that a solid command of several commercially useful languages would help me to find work in law. I was wrong. Repeatedly I was passed over for interviews while the dumb playboys at the bottom of the class got offers from white-shoe firms.

      Only a few states—the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, maybe a couple of others—currently encourage immigration. (Not coincidentally, these are also the thinly populated ones set up by European settlers who killed off the indigenous population.) And even those are particular about the immigrants that they accept. French would help in some places, such as Canada. But it certainly wouldn't guarantee immigration.

      Glad that you enjoy my postings. These days I do most of my anti-scam work over at Outside the Law School Scam.

    6. "Ex-RWU"? Great minds must think alike, Old Guy, because I had already chosen "X-RWU" as a much shorter and more convenient moniker for myself, or at least until I think of something better.

      Anyway, just updating to correct myself from earlier: Wally claims his LSAT score was 150. Still not too impressive, though, amirite?


    Take a look at this Law Crossing piece, written by managing director Harrison Barnes. The article was entitled "Top Law Schools Analyzed And Ranked By America’s Top Legal Recruiter."

    "As a legal recruiter, one of the main questions that I am always asking is this: Will the person do well if they are employed at a law firm and will they stay? In addition, another question is: Will the person do the job long term? As crazy as it sounds, the cultures of any given law school will often assist employers (and me) in answering this question.

    I am not concerned about people who are going to change the world with a book or some sort of political job. I'm concerned about people who are smart, hard-working and will get the job done - and survive.

    That said, here are my rankings (again) of long-term graduate employability and desirability for employers. The equation is simple: What graduate would I hire if I were a legal employer betting on the person likely to do the best in all respects?

    New York University
    University of Pennsylvania

    See how this works, prospective law students/financial rape victims?!?! If you are planning on attending law school in order to “change the world,” “fight the system” or to seek “social justice” for broke-asses, then you are likely going to enroll in a toilet. I’m sure schools such as Stanford and Harvard attract idealistic kids as well. However, the key difference is that when those students change their minds – and choose to pursue economic rewards instead – they have the ability to do so, whereas your options are toiletlaw, doc review, and an internship at legal aid.

    In the final analysis, if you are happy to enroll in a commode – because some “law professor” scam artist says that your dung heap is a great deal because it is allegedly rated as the 108th best school in terms of LSAT scores and job “placement” even though it is ranked 138th best by USN&WR – then you are a moron. No one other than you cares that your 210 pound girlfriend has a great tongue. That is not somehow going to vault her ahead of more attractive women. Going to a ridiculously expensive/grossly overpriced fourth tier trash pit or second tier sewer is not going to end well – for the vast majority of students. And making good money in a career should be the primary – if not sole – reason for attending “professional school.”

  17. Great site. Don't forget the scam law school Carbozo. Attended mid 80s only top 10% resumes made it past the notorious placement office filter for the on campus interviews. Then they would brag that 90% of the on site interviews resulted in offers. So it was trick marketing ...
    ...90% of only the top 10% ranked.
    Most of my classmates went solo or DA or legal aid.


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